42:00 - I can assure you that inflated male standards is not the issue of singleness in the church. It is 1000% inflated female standards. As a single 29 year old guy, it is shockingly hard to find a woman who doesn’t want to have one foot in feminism and one foot in Christianity.
@@anthonyfava9367 100%. The standard package a few decades ago is now “lofty” expectations for the current day. I’ll even add past sexual history. A woman without sexual history used to be an easy find in a wife… it’s quite rare now. I’ve had friends tell me I’m asking too much for wanting that🤦♂️
If my standards are too high for not wanting a single mom or a formerly (or sometimes not even formerly) promiscuous woman, then I think I'd rather keep my standards and remain single.
So true. I'm 43 years old, male, tall, good looking, fit, etc. But it's been near impossible to find a single woman in church that I feel compatible with. Sadly, even in church, women are very broken and come with lots of baggage. It's sad. It used to be the case that if a young woman was a church goer, she was most likely a virgin. But now, even in church, it is unlikely that women are virgins before marriage. Plus, it seems as if most women don't even bother making themselves look presentable or feminine. Most single women in church are fat or unattractive, and don't seem to care about their appearance.
What Im taking away from this conversation is that we need to stop being afraid to tell singles that marriage is a good thing, and actually start helping them reach marriage if they want that route.
As a single millennial man, I would never in a million years want my pastor’s rhetoric to short circuit my opportunity to rejoice in the marriages and childbearing around me and the sanctification that occurs in my friends’ hearts and minds by means of their marriages and families.
Careerism + Female Selectivity are why relationships are not forming like they should be. This is true for the church and the culture at large. Women have to be subordinate (true patriarchy) for marriage to work as a social institution, and that's just not happening. If anything, husbands are de-facto submitting to their future wives, desperate to enter into "Christian marriage."
This has been exactly my experience. I even ran into one of the Botkin sisters (major influence in the "stay at home daughter " confessionally reformed homeschooling movement) who is now at 38 working as a realtor and speaking often of an education/job as a backup-plan for girls in case they don't get married. But the fact is that that's a self fulfilling prophecy as we all know. "You've become the thing you swore to destroy!"
What a great discussion. A culture nurtures that which it values. Many 'churches' need to get back inline with God's design for marriage and relationship regardless of the culture.
Great discussion. As I think back to the men and women I knew when I was single, I see how this advice is timeless. Ive been married for thirty years and the challenges of singleness, feminism and delaying marriage were not as pronounced as they are today but all that you’ve talked about with your guest could have applied. With the society that single Christians find themselves in today, we need more of this kind of wisdom.
Thank you for having these conversations Jon. It’s encouraging to hear people that don’t have huge platforms or people I don’t know teaching biblical things. God has indeed reserved more than 7000! Doug Wilson / Voddie Baucham arent the only faithful men out there
The problem is that you are assuming that most Christians are single by choice. Most single people, including myself, long deeply to be married and have children. We just haven't been lucky enough to meet someone that we are attracted to and are compatible with. Contrary to popular belief, Church has to be one of the hardest places to meet single people. Especially single women. Most people in church have very high expectations for they are looking for in a partner. Plus, it's not easy getting to know single women, because as soon as you start to talk to one woman, everyone else finds out about it. So you don't have many opportunities to talk to other women.
Agreed. I pursued one woman and when we broke up, all of the women who were friendly with me stopped being that way immediately. On top of that they started talking to the other women of the church about it. To the point where when I tried pursuing another woman over six months later, part of why she said no was because she didn't want to be unfair to my ex.
@@dpunch5192 Yup. Church is like one big family. You can't date more than one person of the same family. It would just be awkward and cause people to talk. That's why so many young adults stop attending church. They want the freedom to be able to date who they want, without people butting into their business. Unfortunately this oftentimes leads to people doing bad things or making mistakes.
@nerychristian While we were dating a couple of other women were asking me.a few questions out of frustration because I was the only guy they'd seen in a while pursue any woman in the church. I now know why they had that problem.
@@dpunch5192 Yeah, it's just not the best place to meet women. Unless you've been in the church for many years, and have gotten to know them for a long time, you risk asking out someone who might already be dating someone, or someone who is not interested in you. Either way, everyone will find out because women like to talk. And if you try to ask someone else out, they won't be happy, because no one likes to be second choice
@@dpunch5192if you had pre marital sex I could see why, someone I knew had that happen but if it's just realizing you're not fit you shouldn't be together, the women in that church sound like they're encouraging the lack of wisdom
Good! I try to avoid reading anything from the generation after Martyn Lloyd Jones, because the overwhelming majority is just cultural garbage with no Biblical counsel and no law-gospel distinction or any glorying in Christ!
Glad it was addressed that the increasing liberalism in women, which is really just feminism, is much of the problem. At the end of the day, any moderately attractive women under 30 has virtually unlimited options for husbands compared to their male counterparts. They either cannot make a decision (paradox of choice) or they do not want to get married. Unfortunately, the church is not much different in this regard.
I’m glad they addressed it too. I’ve been around church circles all of my life and the level of unconscious feminism possessed by the young women in the church is scary. Many appear to be good prospects, but you press enough and the feminism comes pouring out. It needs to be addressed in the church because most Christian families send their daughter to college & she gets unknowingly indoctrinated and she brings that garbage into the marriage.
@@Jayar_yep I’m 42 my generation are mostly all feminists even if they claim to by Christian and conservative. Ask them about submission to husband see how that goes.
@@dr.vonslifeinvesting6485 My wife and I have been hurt by many busybody women in the church who pride themselves on biblical fidelity but run around upsetting submissive women's consciences while claiming to be submissive to their husbands, who are always cleaning up after them.
@@Jayar_i had one girl totally unprovoked (i had not attempted to pursue her, she had a face like a dog, poor thing) tell me that she thought that my zeal for doctrine was a red flag because allegedly men who had had zeal for doctrine had hurt her in the past. She was literally avoiding good men because she saw good men as evil
I will say though, as a woman that takes pride in her appearance. I always try to be classy and presentable no matter where I am at. It appears to not make any difference. Most the guys I am around whether its at church etc, people don't want to commit or get out of their bubble. Too many women have unrealistic expectations and too many men are afraid of rejection.
You underestimate how good godly men are at noticing flags and silently, passively rejecting you at a distance. I have done that many times. Has nothing to do with fear, has to do with you not knowing what men are looking for and not seeking to learn
Equating pain with evil is false. That is done a lot when people ask, for instance, “If God is good, why is there pain in the world?” Pain isn’t pleasant, but it also isn’t equivalent with evil. 21:14
I would have got up, paid the bill, left you money for a cab, and walked out to find someone who has allowed God’s Word to share her theology rather than poor interpretations of Calvin 🤣
God blessed me with a wife 5 years ago. When I was single, the message I received was that the desire to be married was idolatrous. I think that was wrong. The Bible talks about how the man who finds a wife has found a good thing. And how God said it is not good for man to be alone. I think it is certainly possible to make it an idol. If a person is angry or bitter, or obsessed. But having the desire is not in itself sinful. Is it sinful for me to want grandchildren one day? Is it sinful for me to want my children to come to Christ? You could say "Just be content with where you are". I can be content with where I am but still have desires for the future, if those desires are in alignment with what God says is good.
It’s infinitely sad that women are taught that their God-given appearance is unacceptable and that they need to conform to the worldly construct of wearing costumes and face paint in order to be acceptable.
I heard once : if you want to find a spouse run as hard as you can towards God and if you see someone out of the corner of your eye running in the same direction take a second look. In other words aim towards God and you will find someone. You do have to be proactive to be around people and guys need to be brave. Mark Driscoll encouraged me back in the day just to go for it and be honest.
I can’t say how much I appreciate this podcast with Michael. Was at Capitol Hill Baptist [CHBC - D.C] for over 10 years and I saw first hand how much damage the teaching about “piety” did to single women and by extension to single men. Most ironically, I found my wife when I left the church (to join an other one). Men and women at CHBC were fed Josh Harris’s book “I kissed dating goodbye” (not the Harris of this podcast). The teaching at CHBC left men utterly disappointed and women all confused. Perhaps things are different now at CHBC. Thank God for this podcast
Other issue/challenge that's grown increasingly prevalent- not sure how representative a sample group dating apps provide, but it seems like by atound age 25, a substantial amount of single women are mothers (or in more secular areas, single mothers who aborted their child(ren)), which isn't exactly the biggest draw for single guys, and for as much as some might try paint a layer of piety over that (eg. Chandler's "Jesus wants the rose!"), it's going to be a hindrance- and likewise for girls (or to a lesser extent, because their are fewer such cases, guys) with a lurid sexual history, a cause for disinterest that far too many, like Chandler, are unwilling to recognize or properly warn people of.
I see a surprising amount of that on Upward, which is supposed to be a Christian dating app. And those are just the ones whose sexual history is forthcoming.
Exactly. Most Christian discourse around singleness is related to “there are so many single women in the church, guys you have no excuse!”. But most don’t stop and consider the volume of women that are in the church that are single mothers or formerly promiscuous women. No one wants to acknowledge that a lot of these women possess characteristics that men don’t find attractive
In addition to that some people who aren't even believers go to christian churches in search of young women, virgins and childless women who would likely make good wives. 'Christian meat market' is a bit over the top but it is the term that comes to mind. Also there are christians who go to certain large churches with the primary intent of finding a mate- not to stay, commit and serve in the long term. As soon as they find someone they are 'outta there.' I could name at least one internationally known church where this is rampant but nobody ever comments on it. I do wonder if the draw of these types of 'seekers' results in greater revenue and size status so nobody ever brings it up.
True. I probably could have found a woman by now if I had been a church hopper. But I always felt uncomfortable visiting different churches just to look for young women
44:00 - I will say it’s a hard ask to ask a guy to marry a woman who he knows he’s not that attracted to. To me that opens the door for too much temptation and I’m not sure it’s fair to the woman.
I thought that was rather poor advice too. I'm not sure spiritual compatability is enough to build a marriage. If there's no attraction, why do you need to be married? You could just be friends. I guess the way I see it, if you're so desperate to get married thar you'll marry someone you're not even attracted to, then maybe marriage is an idol in your life.
If a partner is thinking of making the other person's happiness their priority then the other person will respond to that and will be more attractive and God will reward that attitude and give them happiness too and they will be attracted to that partner. We can be surprised at what God will do.
That's probably why so many marriages are sexless. Because people who aren't really in love, end up getting married together. It's especially true for women. Women are guilty of marrying out of convenience. Then they deny their husbands intimacy when they realize they are stuck in the marriage
@@carolpagotto5395I adhear to red pill logic, as a man be in a position where you're seen attractive to single women when you are married and your wife most likely will compete over jealousy to stay in shape, otherwise unless she's a perceptive good woman she will make excuses
great discussion! I was a single till 36 and in church my whole life and I do agree with these points! the only thing I add is that I don't think the "singles" group should be segregated. It always feels like the odd group out in church. If all ages and martial status did life together it would be more like a church family.
The topic beginning at 14:10 with the TGC article swings too far to the other ditch of error from TGC. The early church may have lauded and sanctified virginity to a fault, but the 21st century church has erred in the opposite direction. The problem with contemporary christendom is that it has decided to be a religion of now, or earthliness. It's no longer about a preparation for eternity, living simply, and focusing on piety before the Lord. It's about build your kingdom now, have babies now, wield political power now. It's earthbound like 1st century Judaism and look what happened to it.
Well I think being critical of any theological position someone is in is necessary for growth to be most effective unto the Lord, I think there needs to be more emphasis on living simply because like thoreu we become slaves to the stuff we own and it takes our mobility off of the kingdom
@@MisertheWizerWell if persecution comes, it kinda takes care of itself. As Hebrews says, "you joyfully accepted the plunder of your goods." With that said, as the Spirit of wisdom says, "the poor man hears no threat."
@@JesusPeopleSF seneca the younger from the book "on the shortness of life" talks about the wealth in simplicity where once you have rejected much of consumerism you're free to accept things closer to poverty and there is no real threat
@@MisertheWizerhaving lived it, I must say there is a tax on the poor in a hyperconsumerized society as well where the poor cannot even walk into the woods and live under a hut because all land is parceled up, sold off, and regulated to nauseam. for the extreme poor, everything belongs to someone else, and you are always infringing. this makes me somewhat long for the days of St. Antony when you could just walk into the desert and set up a tent and no one would care. things have changed
It's more than sad. It's pure injustice. Pastors need to stop telling their congregants to simply accept suffering. I know pastors who refuse to resolve fixable problems. Circumstances are ruining men's lives giving them realistic little hope. Pastors who tell men to get married in today's hellish legal & social context without 100+ qualifications doesn't care about the interests of wellbeing of men. Furthermore, it also assumes finding a willing woman in our context is possible. Often is isn't. Married pastors simply don't care. They should be advocating for marrying without state involvement & do as much without the state irrespective of the law. To be an unmarried man is endless suffering. Pastor's place impossible demands upon men & have no care whatsoever about insurmountable challenges faced, including inability to make enough money to survive & even attract a woman, much less feed a family.
I agree with you. Also I think that when Christian parents push college, careers, making enough money before settling down and then chastity until marriage on top of it, it could be a form of slow torture, and the truth is many young Christians today simply aren’t chaste. The bar has been lowered to suit our cultural norms. Realistically we’re looking at least 30 years old before any of this is attainable for many people now, and even then things are up for grabs. I guess you really can’t serve God and mammon, you’ll either love one and hate the other, and trying to serve both leads to mental health issues. The world likes to heap burdens on top of burdens on people, and they think they’re doing them a favor. Jesus said “take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light”. May God bless you brother.
So many people in the comments missing the point of this discussion and talking about how it doesn't apply to people who are single by choice. Did you guys actually listen? Anyway, I'm a 38 year old single man who's never dated even though I've always wanted to be married. I don't think I can put too much blame on the way that the articles referenced speak to single people though because if you go to your average American evangelical church, you have to look *really* hard to find *any* single people. For most Christians, singleness in the church doesn't appear to be a problem, even though it really is. And that's why the articles are written in line with what makes since for the individual rather than the church at large. Anyway, What I think is missing from this discussion is the impact of so-called "purity culture" back 20 years ago has had on single people today, particularly Millennials. While it has a far worse reputation among the general population than it deserves, it's a much bigger influence on single Christians and their experience in the church than the outside forces from the secular world. The idea that singleness is a higher calling and marriage is falling for carnal desire is definitely not something you'll find being said by our sex-worshiping secular culture. I definitely struggled well into college with feeling like my desire for marriage was a sign of being spiritually immature, and that was a direct result of things that were being taught in the church that were later labelled as "purity culture". The pastor over a singles ministry I was involved with for a while said he was taken aback when couples suddenly stopped forming in that group seemingly overnight - coinciding with people joining that group who had been in high school when a certain infamous Christian anti-dating book took the evangelical world by storm.
I don't recall ever hearing anyone in church being against marriage. I think it's more an issue about feminism and how it has affected even the church. Now most young women don't even seem to want to get married until much later in life. And I think there is also the fear of gossip. Young people in church are afraid to talk to others of the opposite sex, or even show any interest in a person, because they know that people are always watching, and will start rumors. But now what I see in church is a trend that is disturbing. It seems like young adults are less mature, almost acting like teenagers. Maybe social media is dumbing down people. Young men also seem less masculine than what I remember as a young adult.
As a single man myself in my mid 30s who wishes to be married, this was both hard to listen to but also very refreshing and validating at the same time. Thank you!
I generally love the conversations you have. However, "Pastoral Advice for Singles" can be summed up as "Marriage has dignity, singleness does not. Singleness consigns you to less sanctification and a life of more sin. Singles need fixing because something is obviously broken in them." This was a conversation about how much better marriage is. There was no pastoral advice whatsoever. There was a lot of cultural commentary on how big EVA is pushing the notion that singleness is better (which does deserve a lot of criticism). Most singles I know honor marriage. Most singles I know hold it with reverence. Singleness isn't an attack on marriage. You describe marriage as normative - I agree. Just because singleness is aberrant, does not make it abhorrent.
In the context to the person singleness to most men may lead to more sin because other than the mission of God and family to fill time sin is at the door, but there's a few that I've met that seem to be meant for singleness.
Sin is something every Christian has to struggle with, not just singles. And most people in Church who are single, are not single by choice. Most are probably like me, who wanted marriage all their life, but probably just weren't too lucky when it comes to meeting other single people in church. I'm a 43 year old man, single but wishing I could marry. But at my church there aren't many other single people. And I have tried visiting other churches. But it isn't much better at other churches. So I stopped trying to choose a church based on the appearance of people. I don't want to become a church hopper who just visits churches looking for women. I prefer to just remain at a church and trust that God will help me to find someone
@@MisertheWizer Are you asking if I would personally marry a 25 year old? I mean, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I know that there probably aren't many 25 year old women who would want to marry someone in their 40's. Plus I wouldn't want to marry a woman unless I have the blessing of the parents as well. And I know most parents wouldn't be comfortable with it. Then I have to think about the woman too. When I am 60, she'll be in her 40's. She will still be attractive and younger. Will she still feel attraction for me? Will she regret her decision to marry a much older man?
It's very easy for a woman to "man up" when there is no man there. She has to obey God and resist through the power of the Holy Spirit; biblical femininity is worth fighting for.
I think each Christian young person needs to work on developing his/her gifts, grow in understanding of what God has called them to, and pay attention to anyone around you that acts like a catalyst to all that. If they are the opposite sex, then find out if you are having a similar effect on them. If so, start talking about how you can serve God together. That is sort of how it work out for me. I've been married now since 1986 to the same person. I don't regret it. I give much credit to this blessing to a single, marriage, and dating class I had at Logos Bible institute at Grace Community Church that converted me from wanting to be single to opening myself up to meeting the opposite sex. The Scripture did that. The culture has vastly changed since back then. I thank you for giving this some attention.
So, your only approach to older singles is to tell them to be more attractive, be more active in Church, learn how to be a good conversationalist ---- because there is something wrong with them? What is needed is to speak to the heart of the person who is aching because they haven't been chosen by someone to grow older with. None of what I heard you say about giving advice to older singles really speaks to the heart. I'm 80 - not unattractive, very active in my church and community, good at conversation, finally quite content. I still ache at not having been chosen, the aloneness of not having someone to grow older with -- while knowing that God is my Provider for what I really need. I was disappointed at your approach of trying to improve outward things while ignoring the deep inner feelings of loss.
It's true. Im 43 years old, single, and still hoping to find a woman some day. But I'm also being realistic, and I have been hit with the realization that in a few years I will be 50. Should I even think about marriage at this point? I think maybe it would be unfair to any future children to start having children at such a late stage. I don't even have any potential partners yet. I wish other people in church would realize that most single people didn't choose to be single. We just weren't lucky enough to find a partner. Unless someone has a potential lead, any advice for single people is not going to help them through their loneliness
@@nodramamomma2777the problem is, that's often what most of these Christian discussions on singleness often are. It seems like they rarely want to address the issue beyond seeing it as "season of singleness" before marriage (at like 26). They too often ignore older singles in these discussions entirely. I'm speaking from my experience in churches now, where their annual singleness sermon is usually directed at early 20 somethings only.
@@CuriousGeorge13 Yep. And the ones usually giving the sermon about singleness, usually are married. So they don't know what it feels like to be single for a long time.
7:59-8:44 "But they've put out so many things uh where the topic of singleness is kind of intertwined with the topic of homosexuality and making church a more welcoming place for singles includes making church a more welcoming place for celibate homosexuals, supposedly, that it seems to, in my mind, downplay the importance of marriage and family." I can't speak to TGC since I no longer follow them. But in no church I've ever been to is marriage/family downplayed. If anything, it IS always emphasized. Thankfully, not to idolatrous levels. But that does occur in other churches. "In fact sometimes it's referred to as idolatry to be too concerned with those things." Because it sometimes IS. "And it's it's almost created a false sense of holiness that if you're single that you can have the capacity for a deeper walk with the Lord or something." But Paul does touch on that in 1 Corinthians 7. WOW. This was way more shocking than I even expected. Of course there is idolatry of marriage sometimes. Anyone who has done college ministry, especially, knows people that age are obsessed with finding The One. Of course that is idolatry when it surpasses your walk with Christ. The Bible says we are to love God MORE than even our closest relationships. Why is this fact never addressed? Singles are not only often ignored, not only often considered in sin because we can't find a spouse, but now we are being lumped in with homosexuals?! As if those two things are remotely the same? This is my first time even hearing this idea. I don't even know what to say to something so ugly. I confess, I was not expecting this attitude from Jon, of all people. He's usually so wonderfully well balanced and fair minded! I... guess I had no idea he felt this way. I know I keep saying, "wow", but these few minutes of this interview left me stunned. I had no idea so many people felt this way! I've always had a mix of single and married friends. I've loved taking care of their children like they were my own. Married or single, we were always just people. Brothers and sisters in Christ. That's it. In fact, I just had a phone conversation with a good friend yesterday. I've known her kids since they were little. Now she has grandkids. She told me about a new upcoming one. I can't wait to meet this new baby! That's how we've been for 30+ years. Just people who love each other and love Christ. It has never been an issue on either side. And that is just one example. For those who have no idea what it's like to be alone, the fact that Jesus was single is the only thing that keeps me going some days. That, and the fact that there is NO marriage in heaven. I may not belong here. Not in the world, and I guess not even in the church. I am learning that more and more. I am so glad I will FINALLY belong, in the New Heavens/New Earth.
It would be interesting to consider how churches constantly avoiding talking about the uniqueness of men and women is related to the issue of Bible translators doing the same thing in translation. An immediate example that comes to mind is James 4:4, or James 1:2.
This was supposed to be 'advice for christian singles' but turned out to be a more general 'dating and marriage advice.' Nothing said here is specific to christianity. It is curious to me that this conversation often seems to evolve in this way - no Scriptural references despite an entire chapter of the NT dedicated to this specific subject, a 'poo-poing' of biblical reasons for singleness and allusion to stats, numbers and normalcy. Joel Webbon and two other pastors recently addressed this topic and my critique of them was essentially identical. Maybe one day you could revisit and give actual advice to single christians (assuming you can offer something other than 'spruce yourself up, lose some weight, lower your expectations and get with the program.') Perhaps a fuller treatise would cover: 1) christians who desire to be single 2) christians who cannot marry (like after having an unbiblical divorce) 3) Widows and widowers 4) how the local church might better view, interact with and appreciate all of the above without seeing them as some unrealized class necessarily worthy of compassion.
42 widower for 9 years, lost some weight out in some muscle and am basically invisible unless I drastically lower my standards. Smartphones and dating APS give women unlimited attention from men. I’ve been at my reformed church over 3 years. Don’t think anyone near my age and single have come through the doors. Single women don’t want to come to a church where they are told to submit to their husband.
I don't think anyone despises being single- as long as it is by choice. But most people who are single, didn't want to be single. So it's not something pleasant to experience.
The fact that Jesus was single and that there will be no marriage in the new heaven/new earth is the only thing that keeps me going some days. It's unbearable to be alone in this life.
@54:23 thats not what Calvanism is. They believe Jesus chooses who is saved, not that he's responsible. Every true Christian believes and knows Jesus is responsible for any who believe in him.
Lets just fix this title a bit. "Advice for Singles in the Church Who Desire to be Married" There thats better. Now for all of the contented singles out there I guess you will need to wait until another podcast for advice.
@@solideomusical No. But if single people don't need advice related to their singleness, why can't they just listen to general advice that applies to anyone in the church?
The Church has a place for consecrated singleness, based on Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 7. It's called monasticism--and most often, it's practiced in communities of similarly consecrated singles.
I do not agree with Catholicism. But I do wish the Protestant side of Christianity would have communities similar to the ones the Catholic side has for monks and nuns. I think it would be a big help to those of us who are alone. (Whether that is by choice or life circumstances.) American culture has become so insane. I find myself constantly advocating for the biblical view of marriage and family! And many churches are doing the same. Yet, personally, I am alone. So while I have no desire to fit in with this godless culture, I also don't fit in with churches that now pushing back on the culture by focusing heavily on marriage/family. It's like being doubly alone.
Monasticism is also a feature of Orthodox Christianity (in which I'm a priest). Pastors and priests need to encourage young people to pick up the cross--whether it's the cross of marriage or the cross of monasticism. @@Yesica1993 , may God bless and guide you along the path he wills for you. You are suffering, I gather; but God gives that suffering a name, "cross," which links it to the suffering of his Son. God give you strength!
A comprehensive conversation about solving unwanted singleness in the church is going to have to include the concepts of: 1. Addressing marriage law for men as the risks are prohibitively high. 2. The option of biblical polygyny for women. Solving singleness for women could happen fairly rapidly. Unfortunately for men, in may take a very long time.
So just marry the single women off to someone else's husband. Because polygamy worked so well in the past. And was never God ordained according to Jesus and the apostle Paul. Hope these guys are financially loaded, since the women are supposed to stay at home and have babies.
"The option of biblical polygyny for women." LOL! How funny that men want multiple wives but women are not allowed to have multiple husbands. On a serious note, neither thing is allowed in the New Testament. How sickening. This is a CHRISTIAN channel. Take this nonsense elsewhere.
Disappointing message. Sounds like he’s the pastor of the sort of church I had to leave as a Single person. It is sad to see how many churches idolize marriage and family and throw the Singles under the bus. Though I’m not fond of TGC that article actually was quite understanding of Singles. Also the reality is sanctification is life is sanctifying. Singleness especially in the church can often be just as hard and sometimes far more painful and sanctifying than marriage. Frankly, as a group leader it can be very distressing to see the state of the church when celibate God honoring singles are treated like second class citizens. Fortunately, I have found a community better than most but even that place doesn’t fully teach the Word of God like Jesus and Paul did. But many things said here are just a slap in the face to some of us who really try to love and care for the church.
To all the men in the comments such as myself, please remember: Before you judge women for having blemished sexual histories, remember that the vast majority of us have had a history of porn use. If we believe that we can be forgiven for fornicating in our hearts, then who are we to say that women fornicators cannot be redeemed? Jesus himself made this clear. Those of us with a history of porn have no right to demand a woman with perfect sexual purity when we ourselves are not men with perfect sexual histories. The essential thing is that we can be forgiven and be changed, not our sinful pasts. PS: If you are one of the vast statistical minority of men who hasn't consumed porn, then this clearly doesn't apply to you. However, you are also flawed and forgiven, and so I'd encourage you to keep that in mind regardless.
We have to be honest that there is a clear distinction between porn and engaging in physical intercourse. We can agree that lusting after a woman and actually having sex with her are 2 completely different things, right?
@@Jayar_ Jesus doesn't seem to agree with your logic. (see Matthew 5:28) Men who are porn users don't get any moral credit for not having sex with women just because they lack the opportunity to. If there happened to be a willing prostitute in the room next door, no porn user would NOT have sex with her instead of using porn. The heart is the issue, and God can change our hearts.
@@DylanTI Alright then… let’s see if you’re consistent. Let’s say you’re married. If it could be proven that you looked at a women that is not your wife lustfully within the marriage, does your wife have the right to file for divorce biblically?
@@DylanTI Mat 5:28 is about all sin separating us from god. It’s not equivocating lust and physical sexual sin. We know this is the case because we don’t convict men with hate in their heart of murder.
@@Jayar_ Your interpretation is myopic and focuses on one aspect of the passage while ignoring the other, even more obvious implications. The verse clearly describes how "man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart", as written in 1 Samuel 16:7. While fallible men judge based on the surface, God in his perfect justice judges the heart. A porn user has a heart willing to do all manner of sexually immoral acts, they just lack opportunity, which is why they subside themselves with pathetic pixels. A woman of even moderate attractiveness facing the same temptation will obviously have more opportunities to commit sexual sin than the typical porn user. Yet, God looks at both of their hearts and measures perfectly according to their unique situations, deeds, and hearts. You make a pragmatic argument that we cannot lock men up based on their evil hearts, or there would be no one left outside the prison. This is obviously true. However, God Himself did not attempt to fully punish all sins, even when He led the people of Israel and wrote their laws. Why? Because He already knows the sinfulness of our hearts and will bring perfect justice (tempered by perfect mercy) in the end. Your argument in no way dampens the seriousness of our sinfulness. I'm not sure why you feel so compelled to argue that others are worse than yourself, when our true and constant focus should be on our Savior, who forgave us our egregiously sinful thoughts and desires. And if you have been forgiven much, who are you to say that others should not receive forgiveness, especially when you are not the one who was wronged? God will forgive and redeem who he chooses. I feel like my point is crystal clear, so I don't intend to discuss this further unless I deem it necessary, so have a good night.
If you're unmarried it's a choice for the vast majority of people. There is someone in the world who would love to be married to you. Of course, you probably wouldn't think they are attractive but if you want to be married you can do so. Most people's standards are too high for them. Most people finally realize this when they get older and hurry up and marry someone before it's too late. Unfortunately, some people hold strong to they're prepubescent ideals and end up never married. There definitely needs to be more talk about this phenomenon in the church. Thanks for sharing
LOL. Is it that easy? I wish I would have known. I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. Forgive me for wanting to find a woman in church who is still a virgin, who is able to have children, who has a good reputation in the church, who takes care of her health and is pleasant to be around. I guess I'll just go ask that 250 lb woman out on a date. As a 43 year old male, tall, fit, good looking, steady career and good reputation in the church, I guess my standards are too high.
@aribbonatatime "If you're unmarried it's a choice for the vast majority of people." Nonsense. I've been a Christian & involved in church for 35+ years. I can only think of one woman who was open about the fact that she was single intentionally, for the purpose of ministry. And I haven't seen her in probably 25 years, so who knows if she stayed that way. The other singles I've known have wished to be married and have families. "There is someone in the world who would love to be married to you." The Bible teaches no such thing. The Bible makes no such promise.
@@cosmictreason2242 I'm definitely not picky either. Like I said before, I'd almost take any woman who at least takes care of her health, doesn't have kids, isn't divorced, doesn't have tattoos, and is respectful. But even those things, which seem like the most basic standards, are hard to find in church women. Unfortunately it seems to be a trend for women, even Christian women, to get tattoos. There's also a lot of church women who are into the occult or yoga, or some other form of superstition. And then there is feminism which seems like a cancer that affects most women.
Excellent and much needed discussion. Great work gentlemen.
42:00 - I can assure you that inflated male standards is not the issue of singleness in the church. It is 1000% inflated female standards. As a single 29 year old guy, it is shockingly hard to find a woman who doesn’t want to have one foot in feminism and one foot in Christianity.
Inflated male standards = no strange piercing, tattoos: less is best, not obese, otherwise feminine in appearance.
@@anthonyfava9367 100%. The standard package a few decades ago is now “lofty” expectations for the current day. I’ll even add past sexual history. A woman without sexual history used to be an easy find in a wife… it’s quite rare now. I’ve had friends tell me I’m asking too much for wanting that🤦♂️
If my standards are too high for not wanting a single mom or a formerly (or sometimes not even formerly) promiscuous woman, then I think I'd rather keep my standards and remain single.
... word...
So true. I'm 43 years old, male, tall, good looking, fit, etc. But it's been near impossible to find a single woman in church that I feel compatible with. Sadly, even in church, women are very broken and come with lots of baggage. It's sad. It used to be the case that if a young woman was a church goer, she was most likely a virgin. But now, even in church, it is unlikely that women are virgins before marriage. Plus, it seems as if most women don't even bother making themselves look presentable or feminine. Most single women in church are fat or unattractive, and don't seem to care about their appearance.
What Im taking away from this conversation is that we need to stop being afraid to tell singles that marriage is a good thing, and actually start helping them reach marriage if they want that route.
As a single millennial man, I would never in a million years want my pastor’s rhetoric to short circuit my opportunity to rejoice in the marriages and childbearing around me and the sanctification that occurs in my friends’ hearts and minds by means of their marriages and families.
Careerism + Female Selectivity are why relationships are not forming like they should be. This is true for the church and the culture at large. Women have to be subordinate (true patriarchy) for marriage to work as a social institution, and that's just not happening. If anything, husbands are de-facto submitting to their future wives, desperate to enter into "Christian marriage."
This has been exactly my experience. I even ran into one of the Botkin sisters (major influence in the "stay at home daughter " confessionally reformed homeschooling movement) who is now at 38 working as a realtor and speaking often of an education/job as a backup-plan for girls in case they don't get married. But the fact is that that's a self fulfilling prophecy as we all know. "You've become the thing you swore to destroy!"
What a great discussion. A culture nurtures that which it values. Many 'churches' need to get back inline with God's design for marriage and relationship regardless of the culture.
Great discussion. As I think back to the men and women I knew when I was single, I see how this advice is timeless. Ive been married for thirty years and the challenges of singleness, feminism and delaying marriage were not as pronounced as they are today but all that you’ve talked about with your guest could have applied. With the society that single Christians find themselves in today, we need more of this kind of wisdom.
I appreciate you having these convos Jon.
Thank you for having these conversations Jon. It’s encouraging to hear people that don’t have huge platforms or people I don’t know teaching biblical things. God has indeed reserved more than 7000! Doug Wilson / Voddie Baucham arent the only faithful men out there
The problem is that you are assuming that most Christians are single by choice. Most single people, including myself, long deeply to be married and have children. We just haven't been lucky enough to meet someone that we are attracted to and are compatible with. Contrary to popular belief, Church has to be one of the hardest places to meet single people. Especially single women. Most people in church have very high expectations for they are looking for in a partner. Plus, it's not easy getting to know single women, because as soon as you start to talk to one woman, everyone else finds out about it. So you don't have many opportunities to talk to other women.
Agreed. I pursued one woman and when we broke up, all of the women who were friendly with me stopped being that way immediately. On top of that they started talking to the other women of the church about it. To the point where when I tried pursuing another woman over six months later, part of why she said no was because she didn't want to be unfair to my ex.
@@dpunch5192 Yup. Church is like one big family. You can't date more than one person of the same family. It would just be awkward and cause people to talk. That's why so many young adults stop attending church. They want the freedom to be able to date who they want, without people butting into their business. Unfortunately this oftentimes leads to people doing bad things or making mistakes.
@nerychristian While we were dating a couple of other women were asking me.a few questions out of frustration because I was the only guy they'd seen in a while pursue any woman in the church.
I now know why they had that problem.
@@dpunch5192 Yeah, it's just not the best place to meet women. Unless you've been in the church for many years, and have gotten to know them for a long time, you risk asking out someone who might already be dating someone, or someone who is not interested in you. Either way, everyone will find out because women like to talk. And if you try to ask someone else out, they won't be happy, because no one likes to be second choice
@@dpunch5192if you had pre marital sex I could see why, someone I knew had that happen but if it's just realizing you're not fit you shouldn't be together, the women in that church sound like they're encouraging the lack of wisdom
I've generally found success by doing the opposite of what evangelical leaders say to do.
Good! I try to avoid reading anything from the generation after Martyn Lloyd Jones, because the overwhelming majority is just cultural garbage with no Biblical counsel and no law-gospel distinction or any glorying in Christ!
Glad it was addressed that the increasing liberalism in women, which is really just feminism, is much of the problem. At the end of the day, any moderately attractive women under 30 has virtually unlimited options for husbands compared to their male counterparts. They either cannot make a decision (paradox of choice) or they do not want to get married. Unfortunately, the church is not much different in this regard.
It's horrifying to see this current rabid hatred of women, among (supposed) Christians.
I’m glad they addressed it too. I’ve been around church circles all of my life and the level of unconscious feminism possessed by the young women in the church is scary. Many appear to be good prospects, but you press enough and the feminism comes pouring out. It needs to be addressed in the church because most Christian families send their daughter to college & she gets unknowingly indoctrinated and she brings that garbage into the marriage.
@@Jayar_yep I’m 42 my generation are mostly all feminists even if they claim to by Christian and conservative. Ask them about submission to husband see how that goes.
@@dr.vonslifeinvesting6485 My wife and I have been hurt by many busybody women in the church who pride themselves on biblical fidelity but run around upsetting submissive women's consciences while claiming to be submissive to their husbands, who are always cleaning up after them.
@@Jayar_i had one girl totally unprovoked (i had not attempted to pursue her, she had a face like a dog, poor thing) tell me that she thought that my zeal for doctrine was a red flag because allegedly men who had had zeal for doctrine had hurt her in the past. She was literally avoiding good men because she saw good men as evil
I will say though, as a woman that takes pride in her appearance. I always try to be classy and presentable no matter where I am at. It appears to not make any difference. Most the guys I am around whether its at church etc, people don't want to commit or get out of their bubble. Too many women have unrealistic expectations and too many men are afraid of rejection.
It just depends where you’re at. I think we’re all just cynical
You underestimate how good godly men are at noticing flags and silently, passively rejecting you at a distance. I have done that many times. Has nothing to do with fear, has to do with you not knowing what men are looking for and not seeking to learn
Equating pain with evil is false. That is done a lot when people ask, for instance, “If God is good, why is there pain in the world?” Pain isn’t pleasant, but it also isn’t equivalent with evil. 21:14
True. Job is the perfect example of a righteous man who suffered much pain. In fact, the most godly people in the bible had to endure much suffering
Pain is the result of the curse. It can be USED for good, but in and of itself it's not at all inappropriate to say it's evil
This was very good and covers many of the thoughts I've been having on this topic for years. Thanks, brothers!
On my first date with my husband, he asked me, "So, what are your thoughts on the atonement?" I answered, "Uhhh, it's limited."
I would have got up, paid the bill, left you money for a cab, and walked out to find someone who has allowed God’s Word to share her theology rather than poor interpretations of Calvin 🤣
@@HotelCharliHill hahaha! I was nervous!
Also they don't have cabs where I come from.
God blessed me with a wife 5 years ago. When I was single, the message I received was that the desire to be married was idolatrous. I think that was wrong. The Bible talks about how the man who finds a wife has found a good thing. And how God said it is not good for man to be alone. I think it is certainly possible to make it an idol. If a person is angry or bitter, or obsessed. But having the desire is not in itself sinful. Is it sinful for me to want grandchildren one day? Is it sinful for me to want my children to come to Christ? You could say "Just be content with where you are". I can be content with where I am but still have desires for the future, if those desires are in alignment with what God says is good.
"the desire to be single" do you mean "to be married"?
@@conceptualclarity yes, that was what i meant. thanks
This makes me smile , back in the day an older lady i knew would tell single girls “ Honey if the barn needs paint , paint it”
Quote is actually from pastor J Vernon McGee ❤
John MacArthur used to say that too but maybe he got some pushback 😂
"It's a sin for some women NOT to wear makeup" - Paul Washer
@@cosmictreason2242 I remember him saying that
It’s infinitely sad that women are taught that their God-given appearance is unacceptable and that they need to conform to the worldly construct of wearing costumes and face paint in order to be acceptable.
I heard once : if you want to find a spouse run as hard as you can towards God and if you see someone out of the corner of your eye running in the same direction take a second look.
In other words aim towards God and you will find someone.
You do have to be proactive to be around people and guys need to be brave.
Mark Driscoll encouraged me back in the day just to go for it and be honest.
I can’t say how much I appreciate this podcast with Michael. Was at Capitol Hill Baptist [CHBC - D.C] for over 10 years and I saw first hand how much damage the teaching about “piety” did to single women and by extension to single men. Most ironically, I found my wife when I left the church (to join an other one). Men and women at CHBC were fed Josh Harris’s book “I kissed dating goodbye” (not the Harris of this podcast). The teaching at CHBC left men utterly disappointed and women all confused. Perhaps things are different now at CHBC. Thank God for this podcast
Other issue/challenge that's grown increasingly prevalent- not sure how representative a sample group dating apps provide, but it seems like by atound age 25, a substantial amount of single women are mothers (or in more secular areas, single mothers who aborted their child(ren)), which isn't exactly the biggest draw for single guys, and for as much as some might try paint a layer of piety over that (eg. Chandler's "Jesus wants the rose!"), it's going to be a hindrance- and likewise for girls (or to a lesser extent, because their are fewer such cases, guys) with a lurid sexual history, a cause for disinterest that far too many, like Chandler, are unwilling to recognize or properly warn people of.
I see a surprising amount of that on Upward, which is supposed to be a Christian dating app. And those are just the ones whose sexual history is forthcoming.
@@anthonyfava9367 Haven't given it a try where I'm currently living, but that app was either worthless or a disaster in the St. Louis area.
Exactly. Most Christian discourse around singleness is related to “there are so many single women in the church, guys you have no excuse!”. But most don’t stop and consider the volume of women that are in the church that are single mothers or formerly promiscuous women. No one wants to acknowledge that a lot of these women possess characteristics that men don’t find attractive
In addition to that some people who aren't even believers go to christian churches in search of young women, virgins and childless women who would likely make good wives. 'Christian meat market' is a bit over the top but it is the term that comes to mind.
Also there are christians who go to certain large churches with the primary intent of finding a mate- not to stay, commit and serve in the long term.
As soon as they find someone they are 'outta there.'
I could name at least one internationally known church where this is rampant but nobody ever comments on it. I do wonder if the draw of these types of 'seekers' results in greater revenue and size status so nobody ever brings it up.
True. I probably could have found a woman by now if I had been a church hopper. But I always felt uncomfortable visiting different churches just to look for young women
44:00 - I will say it’s a hard ask to ask a guy to marry a woman who he knows he’s not that attracted to. To me that opens the door for too much temptation and I’m not sure it’s fair to the woman.
I thought that was rather poor advice too. I'm not sure spiritual compatability is enough to build a marriage. If there's no attraction, why do you need to be married? You could just be friends.
I guess the way I see it, if you're so desperate to get married thar you'll marry someone you're not even attracted to, then maybe marriage is an idol in your life.
If a partner is thinking of making the other person's happiness their priority then the other person will respond to that and will be more attractive and God will reward that attitude and give them happiness too and they will be attracted to that partner. We can be surprised at what God will do.
That's probably why so many marriages are sexless. Because people who aren't really in love, end up getting married together. It's especially true for women. Women are guilty of marrying out of convenience. Then they deny their husbands intimacy when they realize they are stuck in the marriage
Yes, that door swings both ways! I believe there has to be at least SOME degree of mutual attraction...
@@carolpagotto5395I adhear to red pill logic, as a man be in a position where you're seen attractive to single women when you are married and your wife most likely will compete over jealousy to stay in shape, otherwise unless she's a perceptive good woman she will make excuses
great discussion! I was a single till 36 and in church my whole life and I do agree with these points! the only thing I add is that I don't think the "singles" group should be segregated. It always feels like the odd group out in church. If all ages and martial status did life together it would be more like a church family.
The topic beginning at 14:10 with the TGC article swings too far to the other ditch of error from TGC.
The early church may have lauded and sanctified virginity to a fault, but the 21st century church has erred in the opposite direction.
The problem with contemporary christendom is that it has decided to be a religion of now, or earthliness.
It's no longer about a preparation for eternity, living simply, and focusing on piety before the Lord. It's about build your kingdom now, have babies now, wield political power now. It's earthbound like 1st century Judaism and look what happened to it.
Bullseye .
Well I think being critical of any theological position someone is in is necessary for growth to be most effective unto the Lord, I think there needs to be more emphasis on living simply because like thoreu we become slaves to the stuff we own and it takes our mobility off of the kingdom
@@MisertheWizerWell if persecution comes, it kinda takes care of itself. As Hebrews says, "you joyfully accepted the plunder of your goods." With that said, as the Spirit of wisdom says, "the poor man hears no threat."
@@JesusPeopleSF seneca the younger from the book "on the shortness of life" talks about the wealth in simplicity where once you have rejected much of consumerism you're free to accept things closer to poverty and there is no real threat
@@MisertheWizerhaving lived it, I must say there is a tax on the poor in a hyperconsumerized society as well where the poor cannot even walk into the woods and live under a hut because all land is parceled up, sold off, and regulated to nauseam. for the extreme poor, everything belongs to someone else, and you are always infringing. this makes me somewhat long for the days of St. Antony when you could just walk into the desert and set up a tent and no one would care. things have changed
Not sure how much advise was here. More a discussion which is fine but maybe update the title.
Greetings from Los Angeles
It's more than sad. It's pure injustice. Pastors need to stop telling their congregants to simply accept suffering. I know pastors who refuse to resolve fixable problems. Circumstances are ruining men's lives giving them realistic little hope. Pastors who tell men to get married in today's hellish legal & social context without 100+ qualifications doesn't care about the interests of wellbeing of men. Furthermore, it also assumes finding a willing woman in our context is possible. Often is isn't. Married pastors simply don't care. They should be advocating for marrying without state involvement & do as much without the state irrespective of the law. To be an unmarried man is endless suffering. Pastor's place impossible demands upon men & have no care whatsoever about insurmountable challenges faced, including inability to make enough money to survive & even attract a woman, much less feed a family.
I agree with you. Also I think that when Christian parents push college, careers, making enough money before settling down and then chastity until marriage on top of it, it could be a form of slow torture, and the truth is many young Christians today simply aren’t chaste. The bar has been lowered to suit our cultural norms. Realistically we’re looking at least 30 years old before any of this is attainable for many people now, and even then things are up for grabs. I guess you really can’t serve God and mammon, you’ll either love one and hate the other, and trying to serve both leads to mental health issues. The world likes to heap burdens on top of burdens on people, and they think they’re doing them a favor. Jesus said “take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light”. May God bless you brother.
Excellent !!!
So many people in the comments missing the point of this discussion and talking about how it doesn't apply to people who are single by choice. Did you guys actually listen? Anyway, I'm a 38 year old single man who's never dated even though I've always wanted to be married. I don't think I can put too much blame on the way that the articles referenced speak to single people though because if you go to your average American evangelical church, you have to look *really* hard to find *any* single people. For most Christians, singleness in the church doesn't appear to be a problem, even though it really is. And that's why the articles are written in line with what makes since for the individual rather than the church at large.
Anyway, What I think is missing from this discussion is the impact of so-called "purity culture" back 20 years ago has had on single people today, particularly Millennials. While it has a far worse reputation among the general population than it deserves, it's a much bigger influence on single Christians and their experience in the church than the outside forces from the secular world. The idea that singleness is a higher calling and marriage is falling for carnal desire is definitely not something you'll find being said by our sex-worshiping secular culture. I definitely struggled well into college with feeling like my desire for marriage was a sign of being spiritually immature, and that was a direct result of things that were being taught in the church that were later labelled as "purity culture". The pastor over a singles ministry I was involved with for a while said he was taken aback when couples suddenly stopped forming in that group seemingly overnight - coinciding with people joining that group who had been in high school when a certain infamous Christian anti-dating book took the evangelical world by storm.
I don't recall ever hearing anyone in church being against marriage. I think it's more an issue about feminism and how it has affected even the church. Now most young women don't even seem to want to get married until much later in life. And I think there is also the fear of gossip. Young people in church are afraid to talk to others of the opposite sex, or even show any interest in a person, because they know that people are always watching, and will start rumors. But now what I see in church is a trend that is disturbing. It seems like young adults are less mature, almost acting like teenagers. Maybe social media is dumbing down people. Young men also seem less masculine than what I remember as a young adult.
Too bad that at the time it was not known that this anti-dating author would apostasize from the faith and bless per ver jun.
As a single man myself in my mid 30s who wishes to be married, this was both hard to listen to but also very refreshing and validating at the same time. Thank you!
The Title should be renamed: Advice For Singles Who Want to Get Married.
I generally love the conversations you have. However, "Pastoral Advice for Singles" can be summed up as "Marriage has dignity, singleness does not. Singleness consigns you to less sanctification and a life of more sin. Singles need fixing because something is obviously broken in them." This was a conversation about how much better marriage is. There was no pastoral advice whatsoever. There was a lot of cultural commentary on how big EVA is pushing the notion that singleness is better (which does deserve a lot of criticism). Most singles I know honor marriage. Most singles I know hold it with reverence. Singleness isn't an attack on marriage. You describe marriage as normative - I agree. Just because singleness is aberrant, does not make it abhorrent.
In the context to the person singleness to most men may lead to more sin because other than the mission of God and family to fill time sin is at the door, but there's a few that I've met that seem to be meant for singleness.
You say most singles you know honor marriage. I agree, but churches are the issue here. Do most churches honor marriage? Absolutely not!
Sin is something every Christian has to struggle with, not just singles. And most people in Church who are single, are not single by choice. Most are probably like me, who wanted marriage all their life, but probably just weren't too lucky when it comes to meeting other single people in church. I'm a 43 year old man, single but wishing I could marry. But at my church there aren't many other single people. And I have tried visiting other churches. But it isn't much better at other churches. So I stopped trying to choose a church based on the appearance of people. I don't want to become a church hopper who just visits churches looking for women. I prefer to just remain at a church and trust that God will help me to find someone
@@nerychristian even though culturally it may seem awkward would you marry a 25 yr old woman?
@@MisertheWizer Are you asking if I would personally marry a 25 year old? I mean, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I know that there probably aren't many 25 year old women who would want to marry someone in their 40's. Plus I wouldn't want to marry a woman unless I have the blessing of the parents as well. And I know most parents wouldn't be comfortable with it. Then I have to think about the woman too. When I am 60, she'll be in her 40's. She will still be attractive and younger. Will she still feel attraction for me? Will she regret her decision to marry a much older man?
No mention of divorce and remarriage
Great discussion. I'll ask my son to listen to this.
What scriptures do you think support the idea that same-sex attracted people should marry?
It's very easy for a woman to "man up" when there is no man there. She has to obey God and resist through the power of the Holy Spirit; biblical femininity is worth fighting for.
I think each Christian young person needs to work on developing his/her gifts, grow in understanding of what God has called them to, and pay attention to anyone around you that acts like a catalyst to all that. If they are the opposite sex, then find out if you are having a similar effect on them. If so, start talking about how you can serve God together. That is sort of how it work out for me. I've been married now since 1986 to the same person. I don't regret it. I give much credit to this blessing to a single, marriage, and dating class I had at Logos Bible institute at Grace Community Church that converted me from wanting to be single to opening myself up to meeting the opposite sex. The Scripture did that. The culture has vastly changed since back then. I thank you for giving this some attention.
Good morning from Northern Indiana!
Same here.
@@xbluesaintx nice! and it’s pretty windy here right now!
Happy eclipse day
@@cosmictreason2242 I wish the same for you!
@@cosmictreason2242 I just got back from watching it at Niagara Falls.
Good morning! Romans 15:13
So, your only approach to older singles is to tell them to be more attractive, be more active in Church, learn how to be a good conversationalist ---- because there is something wrong with them?
What is needed is to speak to the heart of the person who is aching because they haven't been chosen by someone to grow older with. None of what I heard you say about giving advice to older singles really speaks to the heart.
I'm 80 - not unattractive, very active in my church and community, good at conversation, finally quite content. I still ache at not having been chosen, the aloneness of not having someone to grow older with -- while knowing that God is my Provider for what I really need.
I was disappointed at your approach of trying to improve outward things while ignoring the deep inner feelings of loss.
It's true. Im 43 years old, single, and still hoping to find a woman some day. But I'm also being realistic, and I have been hit with the realization that in a few years I will be 50. Should I even think about marriage at this point? I think maybe it would be unfair to any future children to start having children at such a late stage. I don't even have any potential partners yet. I wish other people in church would realize that most single people didn't choose to be single. We just weren't lucky enough to find a partner. Unless someone has a potential lead, any advice for single people is not going to help them through their loneliness
I think the intended audience is superficial college students, not those who are more mature, thoughtful, and long for a mate.
@@nodramamomma2777the problem is, that's often what most of these Christian discussions on singleness often are. It seems like they rarely want to address the issue beyond seeing it as "season of singleness" before marriage (at like 26). They too often ignore older singles in these discussions entirely. I'm speaking from my experience in churches now, where their annual singleness sermon is usually directed at early 20 somethings only.
@@CuriousGeorge13 Yep. And the ones usually giving the sermon about singleness, usually are married. So they don't know what it feels like to be single for a long time.
You were definitely addressed in this video
Kraft singles.
33:00 is a good application of imitating Jesus in Matthew 11:6
7:59-8:44
"But they've put out so many things uh where the topic of singleness is kind of intertwined with the topic of homosexuality and making church a more welcoming place for singles includes making church a more welcoming place for celibate homosexuals, supposedly, that it seems to, in my mind, downplay the importance of marriage and family."
I can't speak to TGC since I no longer follow them. But in no church I've ever been to is marriage/family downplayed. If anything, it IS always emphasized. Thankfully, not to idolatrous levels. But that does occur in other churches.
"In fact sometimes it's referred to as idolatry to be too concerned with those things."
Because it sometimes IS.
"And it's it's almost created a false sense of holiness that if you're single that you can have the capacity for a deeper walk with the Lord or something."
But Paul does touch on that in 1 Corinthians 7.
WOW. This was way more shocking than I even expected. Of course there is idolatry of marriage sometimes. Anyone who has done college ministry, especially, knows people that age are obsessed with finding The One. Of course that is idolatry when it surpasses your walk with Christ. The Bible says we are to love God MORE than even our closest relationships. Why is this fact never addressed?
Singles are not only often ignored, not only often considered in sin because we can't find a spouse, but now we are being lumped in with homosexuals?! As if those two things are remotely the same? This is my first time even hearing this idea. I don't even know what to say to something so ugly.
I confess, I was not expecting this attitude from Jon, of all people. He's usually so wonderfully well balanced and fair minded! I... guess I had no idea he felt this way.
I know I keep saying, "wow", but these few minutes of this interview left me stunned. I had no idea so many people felt this way! I've always had a mix of single and married friends. I've loved taking care of their children like they were my own. Married or single, we were always just people. Brothers and sisters in Christ. That's it. In fact, I just had a phone conversation with a good friend yesterday. I've known her kids since they were little. Now she has grandkids. She told me about a new upcoming one. I can't wait to meet this new baby! That's how we've been for 30+ years. Just people who love each other and love Christ. It has never been an issue on either side. And that is just one example.
For those who have no idea what it's like to be alone, the fact that Jesus was single is the only thing that keeps me going some days. That, and the fact that there is NO marriage in heaven. I may not belong here. Not in the world, and I guess not even in the church. I am learning that more and more. I am so glad I will FINALLY belong, in the New Heavens/New Earth.
I think you've missed the point of the episode
Yikes
It would be interesting to consider how churches constantly avoiding talking about the uniqueness of men and women is related to the issue of Bible translators doing the same thing in translation. An immediate example that comes to mind is James 4:4, or James 1:2.
What are you talking about?
This was supposed to be 'advice for christian singles' but turned out to be a more general 'dating and marriage advice.' Nothing said here is specific to christianity.
It is curious to me that this conversation often seems to evolve in this way - no Scriptural references despite an entire chapter of the NT dedicated to this specific subject, a 'poo-poing' of biblical reasons for singleness and allusion to stats, numbers and normalcy. Joel Webbon and two other pastors recently addressed this topic and my critique of them was essentially identical.
Maybe one day you could revisit and give actual advice to single christians (assuming you can offer something other than 'spruce yourself up, lose some weight, lower your expectations and get with the program.')
Perhaps a fuller treatise would cover:
1) christians who desire to be single
2) christians who cannot marry (like after having an unbiblical divorce)
3) Widows and widowers
4) how the local church might better view, interact with and appreciate all of the above without seeing them as some unrealized class necessarily worthy of compassion.
42 widower for 9 years, lost some weight out in some muscle and am basically invisible unless I drastically lower my standards. Smartphones and dating APS give women unlimited attention from men. I’ve been at my reformed church over 3 years. Don’t think anyone near my age and single have come through the doors. Single women don’t want to come to a church where they are told to submit to their husband.
@@dr.vonslifeinvesting6485 the Lord can provide you a wife from elsewhere if not fron your local body.
@@dr.vonslifeinvesting6485don't leave that church but visit others (maybe call on advance)
Is it possible that Paul was a widower? As a general rule, pharasiees were married.
Wasn't Christ single? And 1Cor7. Proper Christian marriage is to be revered, but there is nothing to be despised in being single.
I don't think anyone despises being single- as long as it is by choice. But most people who are single, didn't want to be single. So it's not something pleasant to experience.
Christ is married
The fact that Jesus was single and that there will be no marriage in the new heaven/new earth is the only thing that keeps me going some days. It's unbearable to be alone in this life.
@@Yesica1993 How old are you?
@@cosmictreason2242 Nonsense. He was single on this earth.
@54:23 thats not what Calvanism is. They believe Jesus chooses who is saved, not that he's responsible. Every true Christian believes and knows Jesus is responsible for any who believe in him.
This was the Christian version of Dear Abby. Guys, we need some scripture, a more balanced approach, and something more than, "Clean up, ladies."
Lets just fix this title a bit.
"Advice for Singles in the Church Who Desire to be Married"
There thats better. Now for all of the contented singles out there I guess you will need to wait until another podcast for advice.
If there are contented singles, they wouldn't need a podcast for them. They'd be content and not really care what others think about them.
Did it occur to you that single believers could have other sources of discontent and pastoral needs unrelated to their marital status?
@@solideomusical Such as?
@@nerychristian Do you think married people need no pastoral advice since they're married?
@@solideomusical No. But if single people don't need advice related to their singleness, why can't they just listen to general advice that applies to anyone in the church?
Where is the room for chosen, disciplined celibacy so that a person can be more productive for the kingdom (1 Cor 7)?
Not relevant since those people aren't asking for advice on how to become unsingle
Now who is going to ask Rosaria Butterfield from calling Jesus her husband?
The Church has a place for consecrated singleness, based on Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 7. It's called monasticism--and most often, it's practiced in communities of similarly consecrated singles.
I do not agree with Catholicism. But I do wish the Protestant side of Christianity would have communities similar to the ones the Catholic side has for monks and nuns. I think it would be a big help to those of us who are alone. (Whether that is by choice or life circumstances.) American culture has become so insane. I find myself constantly advocating for the biblical view of marriage and family! And many churches are doing the same. Yet, personally, I am alone. So while I have no desire to fit in with this godless culture, I also don't fit in with churches that now pushing back on the culture by focusing heavily on marriage/family. It's like being doubly alone.
Monasticism is also a feature of Orthodox Christianity (in which I'm a priest). Pastors and priests need to encourage young people to pick up the cross--whether it's the cross of marriage or the cross of monasticism. @@Yesica1993 , may God bless and guide you along the path he wills for you. You are suffering, I gather; but God gives that suffering a name, "cross," which links it to the suffering of his Son. God give you strength!
The monasteries in Europe were not as chaste as we imagine.
@@anthonyfava9367 I am sure they were not. I'm just speaking of the idea in general. It could at least be an option so that people are not alone.
It's probably sufficient for our purposes if they were more chaste than our contemporary, meaningless search for pleasure and power.@@anthonyfava9367
A comprehensive conversation about solving unwanted singleness in the church is going to have to include the concepts of:
1. Addressing marriage law for men as the risks are prohibitively high.
2. The option of biblical polygyny for women.
Solving singleness for women could happen fairly rapidly.
Unfortunately for men, in may take a very long time.
So just marry the single women off to someone else's husband. Because polygamy worked so well in the past. And was never God ordained according to Jesus and the apostle Paul. Hope these guys are financially loaded, since the women are supposed to stay at home and have babies.
"The option of biblical polygyny for women."
LOL! How funny that men want multiple wives but women are not allowed to have multiple husbands.
On a serious note, neither thing is allowed in the New Testament. How sickening. This is a CHRISTIAN channel. Take this nonsense elsewhere.
@@beverlylewis3467 Right?! Unbelievable. This person claims to be a Christian?!
Polygyny is not Biblical. Christ has one bride
@@cosmictreason2242 "Polygyny is not biblical. Christ has one bride."
This is a non-sequitur.
Disappointing message. Sounds like he’s the pastor of the sort of church I had to leave as a Single person. It is sad to see how many churches idolize marriage and family and throw the Singles under the bus. Though I’m not fond of TGC that article actually was quite understanding of Singles. Also the reality is sanctification is life is sanctifying. Singleness especially in the church can often be just as hard and sometimes far more painful and sanctifying than marriage. Frankly, as a group leader it can be very distressing to see the state of the church when celibate God honoring singles are treated like second class citizens. Fortunately, I have found a community better than most but even that place doesn’t fully teach the Word of God like Jesus and Paul did. But many things said here are just a slap in the face to some of us who really try to love and care for the church.
To all the men in the comments such as myself, please remember: Before you judge women for having blemished sexual histories, remember that the vast majority of us have had a history of porn use. If we believe that we can be forgiven for fornicating in our hearts, then who are we to say that women fornicators cannot be redeemed? Jesus himself made this clear. Those of us with a history of porn have no right to demand a woman with perfect sexual purity when we ourselves are not men with perfect sexual histories. The essential thing is that we can be forgiven and be changed, not our sinful pasts.
PS: If you are one of the vast statistical minority of men who hasn't consumed porn, then this clearly doesn't apply to you. However, you are also flawed and forgiven, and so I'd encourage you to keep that in mind regardless.
We have to be honest that there is a clear distinction between porn and engaging in physical intercourse. We can agree that lusting after a woman and actually having sex with her are 2 completely different things, right?
@@Jayar_ Jesus doesn't seem to agree with your logic. (see Matthew 5:28) Men who are porn users don't get any moral credit for not having sex with women just because they lack the opportunity to. If there happened to be a willing prostitute in the room next door, no porn user would NOT have sex with her instead of using porn. The heart is the issue, and God can change our hearts.
@@DylanTI Alright then… let’s see if you’re consistent. Let’s say you’re married. If it could be proven that you looked at a women that is not your wife lustfully within the marriage, does your wife have the right to file for divorce biblically?
@@DylanTI Mat 5:28 is about all sin separating us from god. It’s not equivocating lust and physical sexual sin. We know this is the case because we don’t convict men with hate in their heart of murder.
@@Jayar_ Your interpretation is myopic and focuses on one aspect of the passage while ignoring the other, even more obvious implications. The verse clearly describes how "man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart", as written in 1 Samuel 16:7. While fallible men judge based on the surface, God in his perfect justice judges the heart. A porn user has a heart willing to do all manner of sexually immoral acts, they just lack opportunity, which is why they subside themselves with pathetic pixels. A woman of even moderate attractiveness facing the same temptation will obviously have more opportunities to commit sexual sin than the typical porn user. Yet, God looks at both of their hearts and measures perfectly according to their unique situations, deeds, and hearts.
You make a pragmatic argument that we cannot lock men up based on their evil hearts, or there would be no one left outside the prison. This is obviously true. However, God Himself did not attempt to fully punish all sins, even when He led the people of Israel and wrote their laws. Why? Because He already knows the sinfulness of our hearts and will bring perfect justice (tempered by perfect mercy) in the end. Your argument in no way dampens the seriousness of our sinfulness. I'm not sure why you feel so compelled to argue that others are worse than yourself, when our true and constant focus should be on our Savior, who forgave us our egregiously sinful thoughts and desires. And if you have been forgiven much, who are you to say that others should not receive forgiveness, especially when you are not the one who was wronged? God will forgive and redeem who he chooses.
I feel like my point is crystal clear, so I don't intend to discuss this further unless I deem it necessary, so have a good night.
If you're unmarried it's a choice for the vast majority of people. There is someone in the world who would love to be married to you. Of course, you probably wouldn't think they are attractive but if you want to be married you can do so. Most people's standards are too high for them. Most people finally realize this when they get older and hurry up and marry someone before it's too late. Unfortunately, some people hold strong to they're prepubescent ideals and end up never married. There definitely needs to be more talk about this phenomenon in the church. Thanks for sharing
LOL. Is it that easy? I wish I would have known. I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. Forgive me for wanting to find a woman in church who is still a virgin, who is able to have children, who has a good reputation in the church, who takes care of her health and is pleasant to be around. I guess I'll just go ask that 250 lb woman out on a date. As a 43 year old male, tall, fit, good looking, steady career and good reputation in the church, I guess my standards are too high.
@@nerychristiani find it so frustrating when people assume my situation. If you'd seen who I've considered you would not call me Picky.
@aribbonatatime
"If you're unmarried it's a choice for the vast majority of people."
Nonsense. I've been a Christian & involved in church for 35+ years. I can only think of one woman who was open about the fact that she was single intentionally, for the purpose of ministry. And I haven't seen her in probably 25 years, so who knows if she stayed that way. The other singles I've known have wished to be married and have families.
"There is someone in the world who would love to be married to you."
The Bible teaches no such thing. The Bible makes no such promise.
@@cosmictreason2242 I'm definitely not picky either. Like I said before, I'd almost take any woman who at least takes care of her health, doesn't have kids, isn't divorced, doesn't have tattoos, and is respectful. But even those things, which seem like the most basic standards, are hard to find in church women. Unfortunately it seems to be a trend for women, even Christian women, to get tattoos. There's also a lot of church women who are into the occult or yoga, or some other form of superstition. And then there is feminism which seems like a cancer that affects most women.