Designing Wargames Terrain - The Terrain Triad
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- čas přidán 2. 02. 2018
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In this Talk Terrain video, I talk about one of my design principles for making wargames terrain, the terrain triad and how I use it to make sure my terrain is fit for purpose.
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So, how do you design your terrain?
TheTerrainTutor I tend to try and make it realistic, I work out the street layout, and then add defended and craters after in areas that make sense. I have only really made a diorama.
Well, I'm pretty bad at making terrain, but from what I've made so far, it's definitely leaning more toward functionality.
The few bits of terrain I've made is for me and my mates to play 40K on. So I tend to make it very functional so you ain't playing the same board every game and also make it tough enough to chuck in the car without worrying too much. That said I do like to make it look nice, so friends and new players are impressed. Getting the balance is key like you say. Now when it comes to doing custom bases for my miniatures I like to go balls deep.
I lean toward realism and functionality... I don't really think about durability even though I build stuff to play! I've never built a diorama in my entire life...
Usually I just PVA the sh*t out of it to make it more durable... but still... I could think a bit more about durability when I build terrain.
Thanks a lot for your vid and making me think about my methodology when building terrain!
My design guide usually has been: 1) Display only (thus can be frail and very detailed) OR 2) Can my kids play games on it with their toys (and thus other gamers) and therefore need to be a bit tougher :)
The triad is an interesting way to look at it and has given me something to think about, thank you!
anyone else think Mel is like the Bob Ross of the wargaming community
Benjamin Johnson yeah he’s pretty awesome lol 👍
less hair
"We dont make misstakes, we find places to place clump foliage"
it's basically like making battle damage accidental cuts are a plus
Bugger off!
I've typically thought of it as playability vs aesthetics but I think I'll now refer to it as the PAD of terrain building Playability, Aeshetics, Durability- always PAD your terrain meaning workout on the triangle its PAD.
BRILLIANT video. Explains and simplifies the process and reasoning of designing terrain and layout.
Thank you Mel.
I have had a hard time designing terrain, for Star Wars Legion. Basically, I was lost. There is just so much to that universe. As always, Mel saves the day for me. I even took notes. I really like these types of videos. There is just so much to terrain building.
Taking notes is dedication mate
Very helpful. I came to the hobby from a models and diorama background and really struggled with out of balance realism. This helps a lot.
Mel, there's serious benefit to explaining the theory and thought process. Often the Why gets overlooked in the excitement of the How and When
So true mate
fireside chat.... need a fire place a robe and a pipe..lol. good work Mel
That'd be epic!
Hi MelLove the concept of the triad. I'm one of those train guys you talked about. My terrain tends to be of an urban nature, I.E. buildings, highway, factories and thickly settled neighborhoods. Your concept of terrain stands up very well in both hobbies. You were spot on when you said realism and functionality are important to us. We need to be able to move vehicles and trains around but in most cases we have no need to actually touch the model. I have been a subscriber for a couple of years and I very much enjoy your videos. To many people are snobbish about model railroading but you could find a new following in my hobby.Thanks much, Paul in the states.
Thanks bud, one day I might wander into the railroad stuff for a build ;-)
Love the video, really clear and helpfull to (aspiring) terrain builders.
The science behind the building is, to me, just as important as the building skills themselves to produce a good quality piece so keep those videos coming!
I only discovered your channel about a week ago and it makes me want to get down and dirty at building my own pieces :D
Yeah, these talks are welcome as far as I'm concerned. I think most of us knew all this, but I myself have never really stopped to quantify it. So yes it was helpful.
When you mentioned realism vs. functionality the first thing that leapt to mind was stairs. Its near impossible to make realistic stairways in a house and still be able to place troops on them. I've seen folks prop figs up with dice and all sorts of things on stairs.
One thing a builder might keep in mind is the game mechanics to be used. Try using quick shoebox houses and phonebook hills to play on a few times before laying out a board. This will give a sense of game flow and cover density needed.
Great video Mel. Planning a piece of terrain is just as important as building it. It is nice to learn how you approach the planning stage. I gained some valuable insights today.
Glad it helped you mate
The traditional project triad applies too! Time-Cost-Scope
Absolutely love it when craftsmen start talking theory. Can't wait for more of these. Pointing out the overly wide firestep got me thinking about an industrial warzone project I binned because it required stairs. You either do a ladder or a massive series of inch-wide steps to keep it functional or make a scale stairs deadzone that turns playability into a game of chutes and ladders, but I'm not sure on how to make a convincing-enough, playable middle ground. Would be an interesting topic to see you tackle.
landings and ladders mate ;-)
As someone who is totally new to terrain building, this video has been so useful to me. It's really given me a new way of thinking about the project I have in mind, and is already helping me with new ideas for the project and how I can approach them. I've been really inspired by a lot of your work, but the simple genius of the terrain triad is going to form the guiding principle of my approach to the art now. Thanks so much Mel!
Hope it helps you mate
Great item, using the terrain triad makes sense to me. I will now be using this in my projects. Thanks.
Hope it helps you mate
Amazing Mel, great perspective on terrain building I always use this/similar method as I throw together bits quite regularly. P.s love the vid I tune in as much as I can 👌🏻
Great video. Got me think of my upcoming tournament terrain board. Thank you so much. Keep those vids coming. Cheers Mikael
I liked the camera cuts. Add under the functionality corner the ability to store terrain or transport it as someone mentioned earlier. I think most of us have limited space and storing terrain is ultra important. I've made some humongous swamp and Forrest pieces that don't fit anywhere. Modularity ! Keep up the great work Mel.... A fan from Canada
Place is sparse with me as well so i made even my woods completely detachable by just sticking Trees into lightly colored and textured styrofoam.
I made a video about how I create my wargaming table with tricks like that, it's in german though.
Storage is next on the list mate
This guy knows his stuff. Refreshing to see a master at work
Thank you!
Very detailed points and informative! Awesome.
Another belter of a video - cheers!
Good video, man. I think you've put into words what many of us think about while making wargames terrain. Great to hear you while painting my IS-2s.
Great minds!
Good stuff, you have helped me so much with your videos. Thank you.
Yes, right. All you said. Used the same thoughts by my build prozesses. Want more of this, let me say "ground work". Really nice. Thanks.
Hope it helps you bud
Another Fantastic video, thankyou so much ! Really enjoy your style and presentation!
Cheers bud
really like this in depth diiscussion it really helps me .i was building tank models and some dioramas ,how im trying war gaming , this brings the trade of for realism with the triangle concept really enjoy your work and your shows.good luck to you.
Great advice, i have been telling my club mates this same thing for years. Thank you sir!
No worries bud
This is brilliant!
Would love to see more insight videos like this, Mel. Keep up the good work!
Storage next mate
More of this please.
Like the vid. I go through a similar process as build each terrian piece. I must have just picked it up from watching your channel and others like it. Thanks for making me think more about what the purpose of the terrian is.
Hope it helps bud
Mel you produced a good and very interesting video. Thank you!
Really enjoyed the video, Mel.
Absolutely more, an 11 out of 10 video Mel, never really thought of it that way.
Plenty more to come mate
Totally useful- a nice clarification of vague ideas I had as a beginner in the terrain game. I started with a WW1 diorama and went deep in realism- now I'm doing scatter for a war gamer friend, so I've had to really deal with the durability and functionality issues. As always- love ya Mel!
thanks mate
I tend to place my models (infantry/cavalry/vehicles, whichever I plan to use, with the terrain). I then build the terrain around the models. Mostly to make sure height, cover, gaps between features etc are in order. I also try to design as neutral as possible so I can use across periods and regions - usually more rock and gravel with tufts, rather than grassy green or deep snow (unless I'm really going for a specific scene for a campaign, perhaps). Then I have a maximum piece build size (larger features must break down to this size) in order to fit in an easily transportable container ... since I always have to travel on public transport to games venues.To maximise portability, I tend to make 'foldable' latex/silicone pieces with illusion of depth where I can (especially for water features, roads, marshland, etc).
Very very helpful and instructive thanks a lot.
That was really interesting one, and yeah, I did have that "A-ha!" moment :) My first few attempts to build a scenery was a need of a nice and small (1:160) railroad scenery that would sit on the shelf above my desk. Then we got two cats, and they loved to sleep on it, knocking off all the trees and telegraph poles. I've built a play set for my grand daughter and that one was exactly on the opposite side of the durability scale - nothing sticking out, terrain made of plaster. That one proved to be cat-resistant, despite the fact they both sleep on it. It just needs regular removal of cat hair.
Now I need to find a tree material that survives a 12 pound tomcat sitting on it :)
Hardfoam trees mate! ;-)
I think this video is spot-on. Some other things that can affect your build are your budget and the amount of time you have to complete the build.
Great video. I'm still relatively new to terrain building, so your videos are always helpful.
I'm into figure/toy photography, so the things I make are closer to diorama tier. Which means high realism to make the figure appear alive, decent functionality so I can get the photos I want, and relatively low durability since I will be the only one handling things.
Sounds like you've got a handle on the process mate
This exactly how I approach my gaming projects, i just could not put it together so well. Kudos, Mel!
I also apply an engineering mantra to my projects: it can be done cheap, fast, or good. Pick two.
I like that mantra mate!
Great video! And a good topic. Would love to see more like this. My terrain efforts definitely edge more toward functional (and fun) and durable over realistic. The stuff I make tends to get used a lot, so it needs to be able to hold up to the abuse. Realism is nice, but definitely not my top priority.
Great content, Mel. It's how I tend to design as well, but nice to hear it in a structured way! Definitely too many camera cuts though, it reminded me of 'Jazz Club .... Nice' :D
LOL, yeah, still finding my way with two cameras
This is a good formalization of something I'd come to understand from experience.
this is a very usefull information! thanks!
TTTTT = The Terrain Tutor's Terrain Triad!
for making buildings i draw them on graph paper.A4,A3,A2,A1 then stick em on blue foam or 3mm mdf with paste or dot of pva then cut them out then build em always have done,i make doubles or templates for multipiles....
I generally place durability above all else when I make terrain. Layers and layers and layers of mod podge!
Hey Mate, it has been a while. Yes, I would love to see more terrain talk vids. Anyway, i have been working on a zombies and paintball LARP set.
Sounds like an epic project mate
Very nice
Have you done a video on storage and transport of your terrain yet? I love your videos and have learned loads from them but I have not built anything yet because I don't know a good was to store and transport what I would build. Thank you for everything you do for us and please keep up the great work. I have started a Facebook group for gaming and I share your videos on there quite often. The group is Central Indiana Gaming Alliance if you would like to check it out. Again, thank you for your great work and teaching us loads of ways to do different builds.
It's the next on the series list, it'll probably be out next month as I do like asking my patrons to support too many 'just talking' videos a month mate
Don't! not do like asking .... Doh!
I am with you man, very nice video, and yes, more videos like this please ;)
More to come mate
Mel, I thought there was a lot of value to a video like this. I think subconsciously we've all dealt with these issues and I think discussion brings it all to the forefront. I have to say that as far as this discussion goes, I think it highlights again just how great your D Day board build really was. Not only did it meet all the criteria you spoke of. But I just don't think you gave it enough credit when you think about it. Functionality-check, Realism-check, durability-check. But I think you really knocked it out of the park and really doubled down on the Functionality aspect of that board when you consider the fact that you made that board modular where you could set up the same pieces to in effect make a different battlefield situation. You had 1 build that yielded lots of battlefields. Mel that was truly genius, and I've never thought you've gotten enough credit for that. It takes extra planning for everything to line up on various sides of each board, yet you pulled it off to where you could have a totally different beach head if one wanted, thus changing the strategies for the gamers. All while keeping everything you mentioned in your triad. You sort of touched on this in your discussion as far as your approach towards "Salute" boards compared to regular boards. I truly hope that being a display board most of the time in that hobby shop, that when they do wargame on it, that they take full advantage of what you put into that build. Which I think deserves more discussion-maybe for another video. But how to get the absolute MOST out of one's builds. I would personally love a video on THAT sort of planning. I thought that showed off your experience in a major way. A lot of people don't have a ton of space to store their tabletop boards and that was fantastic way of getting more bang for your buck so to speak. I've often thought what if you made other pieces that could go with the 3 you've already made. It opens a lot of possibilities and options I believe. Anyway, didn't mean to get so wordy, but felt it needed to be said considering the topic. Definitely more videos on this sort of stuff. Take care, happy gaming. Cheers!!
Wow, thank you. The irony being that my d-day board was mostly off the cuff work beyond some very simple planning, it's crazy that it's stood the test of time so well. Quite a few people have mentioned storage, so I'll tackle that topic next
great talk
Cheers mate
Ok, going to probably say this badly but here goes. A gaming board, must be transportable. Can you use the sheet magnets and glue small squares, as needed, to the board, the base of pill boxes, or building, a large rock formation so they can be removed, pack up the board, pack up the objects, the put it all back together where you are playing. Can this be done and be fuctional and look good. A thought I've had for awhile and working it out in my head yet.
I think the time you put into the making could be an important value too.
neat stufff
Hey Mel, great talking points mate, I think you're onto. Reflecting on your video "functionality" is a much broader point than both durability and realism. I also try and consider storage and modularity when designing my terrain, which could come under functionality, but is a different consideration to "gameplay". Perhaps gameplay and functionality or gameplay and storage? I aim to create all my terrain tiles around storage in A4 paper boxes for maximum modularity, storage and transport.
Could you share more wisdom on how to push functionality to the absolute maximum within the board in a future video? Elements to include, etc, LOS, cover, heights, levels/bridges/interiors, and model flow/exits/entrances to maximise gameplay opportunities. I think I'm always missing out on extra gameplay opportunities due to lack of knowledge in the terrain planing area. Cheers Mel.
Hi Mel Iv been enjoying your vids and am now a new Pledge.
Thank you mate, it's appreciated!
This could be the start of a series! Give each of the T's in the TTT a seperate video, where you talk about designs that are high T vs designs that are low T. It would be great.
Storage next bud
For functionality and durability I would also think about storage. Where is it going to live when it's not being used? Am I making something that's too big to easily put away or even leave on a shelf? I recently bought a piece of terrain from Citadel that is rather awkward to store ( the Numinous Occulum ) I prefer if My terrain fits on a 9L "Really Useful" box because I can easily stack them.
Good chat Mel, keep em up ;-)
I too was running helter skelter in my terrain projects and getting frustrated untill I tought "sod it".
Instinctivly I found that balance between functionality, durability and realism.
So what if your 'forest base' only has a single tree and a scraggly bush, you need to get your troops in and if you can make that look good then you're on to a winner.
I'll be talking woods in the next vid mate ;-)
TheTerrainTutor
Good, I can hardly wait as I need some ideas for Japanese pine trees and some generic forests for my Atlanta camp :-)
Great advice! Your point about functionality vs. realism vs. durability is dead-on. In the past - many years ago - I routinely played at a game store that had terrain (hills/rocks formations) with teeth marks in them ... never understood that.
There's gotta be an epic story behind those marks!
so just out of curiousitys sake seeing as you brought up tanks how would the chrysler tv-8 (american tank designed but never produced) show up on the triangle?
4th corner: expensive - how much will it cost in time and resources to produce.
Weird looking tank. I think it would mostly tend towards mobility with a little firepower but nearly no armor. Designed to be able to float and weighing just 25 tonnes does not speak of much armor at least.
You'd have to ask a tank expert mate, I have no idea lol
Very nice look at the engineering triangle of good/cheap/fast, great vid as always Mel. Do you have a build for Salute this year?
Also with the idea of a tshirt maybe you should reconsider renaming your triad with T's I. E. Tough/True/? Damnit can't think of a synonym for function that begins with T, lol
Possibly, not sure yet :-D
Excellent approach to terrain building Mel! I agree with everything you said 100%. For me, as a tabletop war gamer, I would prefer the realism side of the triangle be the largest of the three sides. Now as you said, in order to do this and still keep the functionality and durability relatively high, exceptions will have to be made to the realism side, but for me, I would still strive to keep the realism aspect as high as I can get it without sacrificing the important aspects of functionality and durability that are much needed for a gaming terrain piece.
Ultimately, that’s the trick isn’t it? How realistic can I make this terrain piece without making it useless for a game, or making it so brittle that it would barely last a dozen games before I’d have to chuck it? Hmmm...that sounds like a great theme for one of your videos Mel. 😉. Even more, you could create a series of videos that show the best way to achieve this when designing terrain for a 28mm scale war game, or a 15mm scale war game, etc. You could keep the videos based on a particular scale rather than a particular game to make the videos more versatile for your viewers.
I should add that these terrain videos should be for a tabletop war gamers personal collection that they would use at home when they invite friends over for game night, NOT for a tournament use. That’s a whole other ball of wax, and as you said, would likely need to focus more on durability rather than anything else.
It's the challenge all us terrain builders face mate
TheTerrainTutor Agreed, but due to years of experience and know how, you’ve got a better handle on how best to achieve this than most Mel, and it’s the reason why I try to watch as many of your tutorial videos as I can. I think I can speak for all your viewers when I say thank you wholeheartedly for sharing your gift with us. Really. 😉👍🏻
YES ,VERY TRUE ,BUD .....IT CERTAINLY CAN BE A MENTAL BATTLE BEING A TERRAIN ARTIST AND IS A CURSE THAT YOU MUST LEARN TO CONTROL BEFORE IT CONTROLS YOU.....MANY A TIME I HAVE HAD SLEEPLESS NIGHTS OVER MY QUALITY, BELIEF IN MYSELF & THE EXECUTION OF THE BRIEF FOR COMMISSION PIECES..
It's taken me a while to figure it all out mate, a lot more piece of mind now than in those early days lol
I have to admit when I did my first four pieces I just wanted terrain because I hated 40k with coffee cup buildings. I didn't take planning very seriously, but used styrofoam I found. Then my next 3 or 4 pieces were making better terrain for 40k, much larger, LOS blocking, 3 or 4 stories so even a giant can hide. Thankfully I didn't inject much techno-details in the models. That has proven good as the pieces are decent as ruins in a grassy region for D&D.
My next terrain pieces are going to go in 2 directions. 1 direction will focus on good looking terrain that works for 40k and D&D while nesting inside each other so I can store it at home more easily. The 2nd direction is going to be making awesome dungeons, that maybe I'll be able to also use for Zone Mortalis. I'd say as I've gotten further into my Terrain journey, storage has become more important. Terrain takes up more space than my army.
I need my terrain to be very game friendly, so realism does suffer.
are you still doing comition jobs as i am thinking of having a flames of war / team yanky dual changeable table 6x4 to start but could become 4x12 witch is mobile so i can use at my club and at competitions also so it has to be durable and light but period changeable from WW2 to 1980s by changing the type of roads and buildings (is this even possible)
I'm booked pretty solid for the next 6 months mate
functional, durability, realism and FUN......
Fun is literally the first thing in functionality mate! ;-D
I have started to plan out my own terrain for 40k. I would love to see you teach how to make something like the GW realms of battle. Far too expensive for me to buy but makeing it seems fun just not sure where to start. I will be sticking to scatter stuff like shipping containers.
Watched the d-day board project logs mate ;-)
Great video Mel But please pick a camera angle and stick with it.
Thanks Mel! This may be your tutorial yet, if you know what I mean.
Obviously my take is slightly different because my terrain is functional, "representative" and cheap. There is only a basic nod to "realism" as scale goes out the window for functionality. Detail is heavily reduced as the terrain is representative and using cheap materials. However, the beauty of the build is in the ability to go beyond the cheap materials and the functionality and attempt to achieve great detail. While I am perfectly capable of creating extremely detailed terrain, my channel and tutorials are all about the viewer "having a go". Our channels differ in thay respect. You work is high detail with a higher barrier to entry in terms of tools and experience. Mine is a much lower barrier to entry. I don't mean this in a negative way towards your work, merely that there is a difference and that there is a difference of approach which leads to that differentiation. Hence building modular terrain boards out of pizza boxes. Cheap, easy and quick. This obviously sacrifices detail (to some extent) and durability, however the cost is significantly less. You don't cry that much out of a busted pizza box and Jello than ruined MDF and resin. :) I enjoyed the video Bose. Make more!
Different courses for different horses matey. I think that the amount of terrain D&D folks need for to play their games is a big factor too
TheTerrainTutor "volume" of terrain :) Although I get by with two boxes of tiles. Otherwise you can really go overboard :)
Like how u made it
Don't think I've ever been this early.
A Talky Vid
I ask my self WWTTD (what would terrain Tutor do?)
are you sure WWJHD? do not apply too ??
Please sir may I have some more...
You may :-D
Terrible title, truly terrific terrain tutorial! Tremendous trench too!
Well done! :-D
A pond or a lava crater are brothers in the terrain designing game.
As is the sinkhole .... ;-)
how comes this just has 86 likes? it's an awesome video :D
Thanks mate
the more underlying stuff... that would be foamboard then?!
Too many camera cuts Mel, but good info (as always).
didn't watch, only listened so I didn't notice :)
Agreed. In a 30 minute video you could easily go 3 minutes between cuts.
First time doing a two camera talky vid mate, it'll take a little while till I figure a flow with it
And I have no doubts you'll master it in no time.
Mel I would use the second camera as a way to hide edits, rather than talk to one then the other. This way you can cut out things you may stumble on, or don't want said, or you repeated yourself and jump ahead. It also allows you to compress time as well. You can also film some cut away footage as well, like some shots of your hands while you talk which is really useful to bridge footage together. You just film waist to chin with your hands waving about for a minute, essentially. You can also use some shots of the terrain, background, tools and what not. Gives you a lot of freedom to edit what you are saying down to the essence. Only problem is, some people lile the Mel ramble, so... :)
First