In this video, we look at the history of Rhovanion; a kingdom of Northmen that was allied to Gondor for much of the Third Age, but did not survive it. Patreon - / darthgandalf
Fun fact: The name of the Rhovanion and early Éothéod princes are Gothic, the oldest known germanic language at the time of Tolkien's writings, while the later Éothéod and Rohirrim names are in Old English.
Shows how much Tolkien cared about showing the relationship the languages of Middle-earth had. Of course, their names weren't actually in those languages in-universe (because why would they use Gothic or Old English?), it's how Tolkien choose to represent those names to make them fit with his choice to represent Westron as English when "translating" the Red Book into LotR. Names like Theoden, Eowyn, Elfhelm etc aren't what those people are actually called in Middle-earth, same with the names of the Hobbits (for which we actually have some original names - Frodo Baggins is a translation of the Ringbearer's actual name Maura Labingi, for example).
This fits very well, as the Northmen are in many ways similar to the Germanic tribes, having wars against the horsemen and Mongols from the East during the early Middle Ages. The Gondorians are somewhat reminiscent of the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople. Culturally, there are many similarities, but also a few differences. Some of the successors of the Germanic tribes later became known as Vikings. This does not exist at all in Tolkien's world for lack of access to the sea. Instead, the Norsemen in Middle-earth have their horses, which in real Europe was initially more typical of the nomadic peoples from the East.
amazing bro, been waiting for this one, excellent lore video once again! i have to guess that Rhovannion would never end if it wasnt for the Plague... and not because of the Easterlings that they ended. its a little unfair in the beggining of the video saying they were a Kingdom protected by Gondor... they often aided Gondor, presumably more times than the others... so I wouldnt say really protected by them still they legacy lived on and helped Gondor not to fall!
Thank you for this great video. I found it interesting and I am glad that although this Kingdom is forgotten, Tolkien was kind enough to write a bit about it.
Perhaps some of their descendants who ended up settling in Gondor would have written down the histories of their people or at least part of it. Theoden and/or his father may have learned some from these writing seeing as he was actually born in Gondor and his father spent many years there.
@@marthvader14 I imagine upper-class Rohirrim could write simply because it would've been necessary for orders, messages, and decrees. But I suspect most Rohirrim were illiterate.
@@DarthGandalfYT the Rohirrim are based on Germanic peoples. I imagine Rhovannia was fully illiterate, Anduin has some runes that peoples spoke, than Rohan had a literate king and priests. In real life the Goths were illiterate, the Ostrogoths and Visigoths were some rune stones, and the Thuringians who are medieval Goths in Central Germany that everyone forgets about are pretty much literate when Protestantism came about
Is it possible that inspiration for this region and history is based off the Kievan Rus and the Byzantine empire? Rhovanion is on an open plain much like parts of Russia. The wainriders possibly like Tartars/mongols/ Golden Horde.
This map shows Rhovanion more as land of modern day central Europe consisting parts or all of Germany, Austria Poland, Czechia and Slowakia external-preview.redd.it/Cf9bu3u0FTPnJQUAMEP7Xz1AHNtZI7qBLfFm1eeckYg.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=9e8e5cdb760d47b9494ad88fac709b14bce0e0d9
You are like the friend I miss in my life who wants to talk about the obscure and almost mythical aspects within the mythology. And I love your accent, as I (I'm 🇨🇭) used to live a few years in Sydney as a child
Question: is there any mention of or do you personally think that in the 4th age Rhovanian was resettled, under the King or beyond? Great video as always man!
I'd like to think lots of places were resettled in the Fourth Age. If Eriador could be resettled, then there's absolutely no reason why Rhovanion couldn't be resettled either. It would probably be easier than Eriador.
@@DarthGandalfYT I just wonder where people are supposed to have come from to repopulate all these areas. It must have taken a very long time, since Middle Earth was totally depopulated and empty at the end of the Third Age. Even in Minas Tirith, many houses must have been empty even before the war. Unfortunately there are no direct numbers from Tolkien, but I would be interested in your estimation of population numbers and population density at certain important points in time. You have already done something similar about army sizes. I hope this would be a good idea for a new video.
Gondor and Rohan played a major-role in the war of the rings? Wasn't that the of Sauron against the elves (death of Celebrimbor, and so on, way before Lord of the rings)?
When the men of Rhovannia migrated to the Anduin than Rohan I struggle understanding how populations in both examples were not left behind before immigrating to Rohan, as a anthropologist of real Germanic peoples as what the northman are based on in Middle Earth I would imagine it was a branching out left behind situation. Wholesale evacuation would need major chaos like what East Germanic peoples went through during the Slavic and Hunnic invasions along with the massive coldsnap that froze the crops and wintered out the Germanic tribes. And yet many still stayed behind. So the wholesale migrations of Rhovannia people then Anduin people seem odd to me that non stayed behind to recover population.
actually Theoden may have been the first king of the Eotheod to remember Rhovanion in a long time, mainly because of his upbringing in Gondor itself, were I would guess he got an education on ancient history and no doubt the Gondorian historians would've liked to inform the young heir to an ally kingdom of how his ancestors helped Gondor against many a foe many times, if not just to educate him, then for the sake of securing his sense of loyalty to the alliance.
Considering its parallels with Kievan Rus it might not be that simple. The sheer distance between centers of population made individual cities the bases of power. The prince who is able to dominate the realm though alliances or military power makes his own powerbase the capital. When they are defeated a new prince names his own city the capital.
I think that Théoden and Eomer would know some tales of Rhovanion, but such tales would be considered myth and legend rather than history, in the same way that we think of the tales of King Arthur.
Fun fact: The name of the Rhovanion and early Éothéod princes are Gothic, the oldest known germanic language at the time of Tolkien's writings, while the later Éothéod and Rohirrim names are in Old English.
Shows how much Tolkien cared about showing the relationship the languages of Middle-earth had.
Of course, their names weren't actually in those languages in-universe (because why would they use Gothic or Old English?), it's how Tolkien choose to represent those names to make them fit with his choice to represent Westron as English when "translating" the Red Book into LotR. Names like Theoden, Eowyn, Elfhelm etc aren't what those people are actually called in Middle-earth, same with the names of the Hobbits (for which we actually have some original names - Frodo Baggins is a translation of the Ringbearer's actual name Maura Labingi, for example).
This fits very well, as the Northmen are in many ways similar to the Germanic tribes, having wars against the horsemen and Mongols from the East during the early Middle Ages. The Gondorians are somewhat reminiscent of the Eastern Roman Empire and Constantinople. Culturally, there are many similarities, but also a few differences. Some of the successors of the Germanic tribes later became known as Vikings. This does not exist at all in Tolkien's world for lack of access to the sea. Instead, the Norsemen in Middle-earth have their horses, which in real Europe was initially more typical of the nomadic peoples from the East.
Gloomy day, cup of coffee and a new Darth Gandalf video. Life can be so generous.
Well said!
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amazing bro, been waiting for this one, excellent lore video once again!
i have to guess that Rhovannion would never end if it wasnt for the Plague... and not because of the Easterlings that they ended.
its a little unfair in the beggining of the video saying they were a Kingdom protected by Gondor... they often aided Gondor, presumably more times than the others... so I wouldnt say really protected by them
still they legacy lived on and helped Gondor not to fall!
Felt like a bit nostalgic for third age total war.
Good video man
Thank you for this great video. I found it interesting and I am glad that although this Kingdom is forgotten, Tolkien was kind enough to write a bit about it.
Another fantastic video. Keep up the great work.
Perhaps some of their descendants who ended up settling in Gondor would have written down the histories of their people or at least part of it. Theoden and/or his father may have learned some from these writing seeing as he was actually born in Gondor and his father spent many years there.
Dunno about Theoden, though it is as you say, he may have,
but Faramir may have come across some of this in his books and later told Eowyn...
Good point. The Rohirrim didn't write, but Northmen descendants living in Gondor would've certainly picked up the habit.
@@DarthGandalfYT What, Rohorrim were illiterate??
@@marthvader14 I imagine upper-class Rohirrim could write simply because it would've been necessary for orders, messages, and decrees. But I suspect most Rohirrim were illiterate.
@@DarthGandalfYT the Rohirrim are based on Germanic peoples. I imagine Rhovannia was fully illiterate, Anduin has some runes that peoples spoke, than Rohan had a literate king and priests.
In real life the Goths were illiterate, the Ostrogoths and Visigoths were some rune stones, and the Thuringians who are medieval Goths in Central Germany that everyone forgets about are pretty much literate when Protestantism came about
great subject great vid great work. another quality offering. thank you
Amazing video dude
You are the best !!!!
Well done
Awesome man
Is it possible that inspiration for this region and history is based off the Kievan Rus and the Byzantine empire? Rhovanion is on an open plain much like parts of Russia. The wainriders possibly like Tartars/mongols/ Golden Horde.
Plus the bickering City states.
This map shows Rhovanion more as land of modern day central Europe consisting parts or all of Germany, Austria Poland, Czechia and Slowakia external-preview.redd.it/Cf9bu3u0FTPnJQUAMEP7Xz1AHNtZI7qBLfFm1eeckYg.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=9e8e5cdb760d47b9494ad88fac709b14bce0e0d9
You are like the friend I miss in my life who wants to talk about the obscure and almost mythical aspects within the mythology. And I love your accent, as I (I'm 🇨🇭) used to live a few years in Sydney as a child
Question: is there any mention of or do you personally think that in the 4th age Rhovanian was resettled, under the King or beyond? Great video as always man!
I'd like to think lots of places were resettled in the Fourth Age. If Eriador could be resettled, then there's absolutely no reason why Rhovanion couldn't be resettled either. It would probably be easier than Eriador.
@@DarthGandalfYT I just wonder where people are supposed to have come from to repopulate all these areas. It must have taken a very long time, since Middle Earth was totally depopulated and empty at the end of the Third Age. Even in Minas Tirith, many houses must have been empty even before the war.
Unfortunately there are no direct numbers from Tolkien, but I would be interested in your estimation of population numbers and population density at certain important points in time. You have already done something similar about army sizes. I hope this would be a good idea for a new video.
can you do a video on the fall of gondolin
Gondor and Rohan played a major-role in the war of the rings? Wasn't that the of Sauron against the elves (death of Celebrimbor, and so on, way before Lord of the rings)?
The Rohirrim would know everything of their heritage in their songs. They would probably also be reminded by the Gondorian kings and scholars.
When the men of Rhovannia migrated to the Anduin than Rohan I struggle understanding how populations in both examples were not left behind before immigrating to Rohan, as a anthropologist of real Germanic peoples as what the northman are based on in Middle Earth I would imagine it was a branching out left behind situation. Wholesale evacuation would need major chaos like what East Germanic peoples went through during the Slavic and Hunnic invasions along with the massive coldsnap that froze the crops and wintered out the Germanic tribes. And yet many still stayed behind. So the wholesale migrations of Rhovannia people then Anduin people seem odd to me that non stayed behind to recover population.
actually Theoden may have been the first king of the Eotheod to remember Rhovanion in a long time, mainly because of his upbringing in Gondor itself, were I would guess he got an education on ancient history and no doubt the Gondorian historians would've liked to inform the young heir to an ally kingdom of how his ancestors helped Gondor against many a foe many times, if not just to educate him, then for the sake of securing his sense of loyalty to the alliance.
I think this will require another watch to completely understand the what's happening.
I wonder if Rhovanion had a capital.
Considering its parallels with Kievan Rus it might not be that simple.
The sheer distance between centers of population made individual cities the bases of power.
The prince who is able to dominate the realm though alliances or military power makes his own powerbase the capital. When they are defeated a new prince names his own city the capital.
I think that Théoden and Eomer would know some tales of Rhovanion, but such tales would be considered myth and legend rather than history, in the same way that we think of the tales of King Arthur.
Yo what total war mod is that?
probably either third age total war or divide and conquer, both for medieval 2
Its divide and conquer, there some units called Guards of Minas Ithil shown in the video
Wainriders not "Wayne Riders"... good video though.
You probably had automatic generated subtitles. These are created by yt, not by author, and always had some dumb things.