A lot of people are trying to be wierd and argue about ulfric and other stuff here so let me be plain with you guys. I am NOT discussing ulfric here, only bringing up the argument i hear sometimes about him being judged. I am mostly talking about why the dragonborn isnt judged for using the Thu'um. Thats it 🤦♂️
??? You don't get letters from a "friend" telling you that you caused quite a stir in (random locations) when you use your shout? Everytime you shout you're being judged. Also put on namiras ring or weild molag bol mace n be a werewolf and city guards will diss you saying things like " you smell like a wet dog", they'll tell you to get the mace away from them , and after eating someone with namiras ring on they'll rag on your breath being stank. 😂😅 Enjoy!
@@infinitybreak4459 ya know a lot of people say the dragonborn in skyrim is an avatar of akatosh but i think hes more a shezarrine. kinda like pelinal or talos. i mean think about it. shor and auriel, the elven akatosh, hate each others guts. auriel ripped shors heart from his chest. the nords and the elven races have history of war. the nords are of the belief that lorkhan was a hero, while the aldmer, and by extension modern elves, believe lorkhan to be a sinister trickster. alduin is the nordic auriel. the last dragonborn is in direct opposition of an aspect of akatosh, so does it really make sense for him to be a champion of akatosh? is it not more reasonable to assume he is a shezzarine? it would explain why he was given an afterlife in sovnguarde, regardless of race, by tsun in dialogue. just food for thought.
I think its because we are a Dragon and dragons don’t adhere to the way of the voice until partysnax intervenes. We are humans with the body of a mortal but SOUL of a dragon therefore we aren’t human thus not expected to follow any rules. If we probably wanted to the Last Dragonborn would be a god like being considering there’s theories on him being reincarnations of both Shor and Akatosh himself
@@adamallen7070 the dragonborn does not literally have the soul of a dragon though. they have a soul enlightened by the dragon god. they dont literally have a dragon soul. they absorb the souls of dead dragons but they dont actually have any real kinship with the dovah. its more a connection to akatosh that gives some form of kinship. people take the whole dragonborn title far too literal.
@@bigboyemotheescamo78 Its stated that you're a mortal with the soul of a dragon, and dragons are capable of absorbing the souls of their fallen bretheren. You don't have the body of a dragon obviously, but even Durnehviir felt inclined to treat you as a fellow Dovah even before you find out you're dragonborn
@@enderman_of_d00m24 That is entirely you making shit up. Jurgen Windcaller founded the Way of the Voice after the nords lost at Red Mountain; it was his attempt to explain why that happened. The nords had been using the voice as a weapon for thousands of years by that point.
Because they can't stop you. If Greybeards tried to shout the dragonborn into stopping, canonically, he would withstand their attempt, learn the shouts being used at him, then shout back and obliterate them.
I'm pretty sure if Lorgar was transplanted into the Elder Scrolls, he would say something like that to get the Dovahkiin to join him in taking over Tamriel.
Lore explanation: Unlike greybeards that follow a philosophy of peace, where using Kynareth's gift of Voice for offensive violence is seen as an insult, the Dragonborn never pledged themself to this philosophy to learn Thu'um, because they already know it. It's a part of him and his nature. It would literally be like to convince an actual dragon not to breathe fire or speak. Also lore explanation: It's the Dragonborn, who the fuck is going to stop him.
Yeah, they beat Alduin. The same character, who fights Mehrunes Dagon every now and then, and never loses. The dragonborn is stronger than a daedric prince. How is Kyne gonna stop 'em?
funny thing if you shout enough in towns the guards stop you then say "you are making everyone nervous", Another thing i did notice is that if you still do it people will help you find the remaining shouts so you don’t need to fully complete the grey beard radiant questline to get all shouts you can get them via “ letter from a friend” quests. My own head cannon for this they see you like the local super hero and want to make you stronger so some people like it others don’t. You also have to remember the last person to openly use one before the game starts used a shout and killed a high king lol.
@@callumkristofer7793 wait I’m pretty sure alduin hasn’t fought Dagon before. cus alduin and akatosh are separate entities and akatosh is the fighting dagon (or a least someone channeling akatosh like with Martin Septim
@@somefallenleaves It's funny that you should take 2 dragon souls and complete the Bard Questline before reaching to High Hrothgar for easy 3 Word "Wuld Nah Kest"
Well, the Dragonborn IS a dragon in a mortal vessel. Like, you said. They are gifted by Akatosh. More than that, as a dragon they are more or less the child of Akatosh.
@@mattiaskalstrum5649They would be like the Septims.. dragonborn.. but as humans with dragon blood.. not like The Last Dragonborn who is an actual Dragon.. spirit and everything, but in a human body.
Ancient Nords used thu'um justifiedly to revolt against Alduin and Dragon Cult. It only became questionable when they used it in offensive warfare like Battle of Red Mountain. After defeat in that battle, Greybeards were founded as a mean to learn and Thuum with higher, nobler purpose.
I always figured that the dragonborn isn't entirely mortal. Due to their draconic soul, the Dovahkiin *is* a dragon, just in mortal form, meaning that the Voice would be their right by blood and/or birth, the same as any other dragon.
Its clearly stated in spoken dialouge by the greybeards that the dragonborn isnt bound by the same rules as other people, i have zero clue why some people actually dont know why the dragonborn can use the voice for anything they want. So since ulfric aint dragonborn and he learned how to use the voice from the greybeards hes bound by the rules about it being wrong to use the voice in combat and wont ever be welcomed back to the greybeards as he broke a major rule of theirs.
@@rrockstarrj it's after they realized what kind of person ulfric truly was and made him leave that they stopped caring about him, if someone learns how to use the voice by being taught for years by the greybeards the very least you can do is not miss use it especially since their whole teachings is to use the voice as way of getting enlightenment not power. Only the dragonborn who gets his power from akatosh directly and can learn the voice without the greybeards teachings can use the voice for combat and not get shunned by the greybeards. Also them not being the original creators of the way of the voice literally doesn't matter as they're the disciples of the creator and continue the teachings in their stead.
@@stephenbyers6173 The point you wrong is, it's not the users who have to follow the rule, it's the voice itself who are binded by them, so if Ulfric was able to use it and it being powerfull is because it was legitimate, they just diden't saw it coming as no one remembered it existed so they was no rule again it, it was a fight about themself and the weapon they can lift, what surprised them so much is that emperial scum diden't saw that coming and where unhappy bad loser especially sinse it was their puppet.
@@orctrihar The Jarls knew of the thu'um and called it sacred. If Ulfric had just fought with a blade, and killed Toryigg that way, the Jarls would have sided with him.
Furthermore, the Dragonborn are neither Men nor Mer- they're dragons, stuffed into mortal bodies and sent forth to do what dragons do- fight, kill, conquer, and impose their will on the world. They are equivalent to demigods or angels, and to tell them how to use the Voice is tantamount to blasphemy.
Wait like literally they are not human? I knew they were supposed to be like honourary dragons but I didn't realise the dragonborn were actually dragon souls
You can ask the Greybeards this, and they will give you a different answer: That you're an exception to all the rules, because the gods gave a warrior the Thu'um for a reason. Also, before Skyrim retconned it, there was supposed to be a Thu'um war college in Markarth founded by Talos himself.
Yeah, I'm still kind annoyed that war college wasn't included (I.e. the lore for TES5 was dumbed down the make it simpler instead of more interesting... *cough*Great Collapse *cough*). Hopefully someone will make a proper guild questline mod with that war college in at some point, a few more shouts and the chance to fight other thu'um users who subscribe to that philosophy instead of the Way of the Voice.
I will always love how playable characters in Elder Scrolls games can become these overpowered monsters that nobody can really stop. Like, the Nerevarine brought down not one, but 4 different gods in their time, and is still probably running around doing whatever they want. Could be off studying the races in Akavir for all we know. The Champion of Cyrodill prevented an invasion by Mehrunes F-ing Dagon, the God of DESTRUCTION who successfully invaded to destroy an Empire of Dreugh in a previous Kalpa, and then the Champion defeated Jyggalag, and mantled his madness, becoming the new Sheogorath. To top it all off, the Champion was literally just a normal person. No god blood or special powers. Just a normal Human, or Autistic cat depending on who you ask. And the Dragonborn is a literal God at this point. Sure, they may have a mortal body, but they have the soul of a literal dragon from Akatosh himself. You know, Akatosh? The crazy dragon god of time with like 3 different personalities. (Lorkan is better by the way, sorry Mer, but Humanity number one). But, let's be honest, Akatosh created the Dragonborn for the sole reason of kicking Alduin into the timeout corner of Aetherius, until the God's get sick of this Kalpa and hit the new game plus version of Mundus. Good luck with that though, when there's a Dragonborn so powerful they can probably scream a pocket universe into existence simply because they're bored. And if you think they can't do that, well the Dragonborn has become the (possibility reluctant), Champion of Hermaeus Mora, Eldritch God of knowledge and president of the "Sucker for love" Fan club. So again, if you think the Dragonborn can't do this, they can certainly learn how to do this from Hermaeus "Just install mods lmao" Mora. I can go on and on about the accomplishments of all *5* protagonists, but I think the point has been made. I wonder how Bethesda is going to top this in the Elder Scrolls 6: Skyrim 2 edition. Now if you’ll excuse me, I've forgotten what grass feels like, so I must rectify this. May the dragon blood serve you well. Peace.
The Champion of Cyradill has already taken the might and the mantle of Sheogorath and no one like to mess with a daedric prince. The Champion didn't defeat Mehrunes Dagon, it was Martin the MVP.
The problem is not that Ulfric uses the voice, the problem is that he used the voice in a duel to glorify himself. If he used voice to fight hordes of enemies and dragons like the dragonborn does, there would be no problem.
It's also possible that it's just due to an interpretation. I don't believe Kyne necessarily outright said "Hey don't use the Thu'um for battle", but rather that after the great loss Skyrim had at Red Mountain, Jurgen Windcaller believed that the Nords lost because the gods were displeased at their abuse of the Thu'um. So you could argue that the idea of "Not using the Voice for battle unless you're Dragonborn" is really more a social construct that the Greybeards like to say is a hard and fast rule, whether it is actually true or not.
You make a very good point I think this might mirror real life religion where through years of telephone and interpretation sonething as simple as "dont abuse your power" was turned into "we cannot use this power"
Yeah greybeards said not to use thu'um for "glory of men". But greybeards will use thu'um to defend themselfs. Mortals were given the voice also partly to stand a chance against tyranny of dragons.
How did a bunch of Nords using unrelenting force rag dolling and throwing swathes of people lose a battle. That's just some massive incompetence on their part
@@cvi4057 I believe their thu'um faltered during the battle dur to kyne more than likely intervening to weaken their shouts or out right stripping it away
I think a lot of the anger around Ulfric’s use of the voice is that he had used it dishonourably in his duel with High King Torygg. Instead of fighting him properly, Torygg was “shouted to pieces”.
@@lincolngravemann682 I mean, likely Torygg views magic and tradition closer to the Imperials than the dogmatic Nords of Skyrim. Yes tradition is sacred to Nords, yet their view on magic is pretty consistently negative. That and, while Ulfric says his sword did finish him, he openly admits to using the voice to disarm Torygg, which again might make him seem cowardly to some.
Nords were gifted the voice to combat the dragons, not for worship. The way of the voice was created by windcaller after the war. The reason the dragon born learns it faster is because of the dragons blood. He can learn and use it as a dragon rather than a person. To use shoots as a normal person you must understand each words meaning and intent which takes time. As dragonborn you learn the words and absorb the knowledge from the dragons you kill. Hence why the dragonborn can use it faster than anyone.and only the greybeards follow the way of the voice and that following says it should not be used to as a weapon against the people as it was gifted so the Nordstrom could fight off the dragons. Nothing actually prevents one from learning it and using it in combat since the only ones that look down on it is the gray beards. The reasons why ulfric was frowned upon were different. Since the imperial called it murder but the stormcloaks say he challenged him to a proper duel and ulfric won.
Eh, Alduin had gone off script. Wanting to conquer and rule the world rather than destroy it. The Dragonborn was a troubleshooter, killing the corrupt code so that it could be recreated properly. In other words, by killing Alduin you’ve actually enabled the gods to fix their Armageddon button
I thought the issue with Ulfric was that he Shouted during a dual against an opponent he really didn't need to use it on. Which, interestingly, the Dragonborn isn't allowed to do during say, an agreed upon Brawl. You get chewed out in a similar way to Ulfric.
He used Thuum in the fight where no magic allowed, its literaly like come to a fight with no allowed weapons or firearms and strike oponents with a car
@@somefallenleaves Hence why Ulfric is so divisive even amongst Nords. It draws an equal mix of "YEAAAAAH SKYRIM IS FOR THE NORDS" and ". . . Wait, that's illegal."
The Dragonborn is basically a reincarnated dragon, Paarthurnax also recognizes the Dragonborn as a fellow dov. Definitely different rules. P.S. Miraak was right.
@@indrickboreale7381 Of course, Miraak would have lost. It was just a cheap show-off "I could have killed him myself. I just didn't want to, yeah. I was too busy kissing the ass of a Daedra prince with tentacles. I meant... I AM THE FIRST DRAGONBORN, ALDUIN IS AN INSIGNIFICANT WORM COMPARED TO ME!!!
@@indrickboreale7381 we have to separate game mechanics from lore though. For instance, Dagoth Ur in Morrowind was weaker than a werewolf. Although when I said “Miraak was right,” I am referring to Miraak thinking that he should had been worshiped along with the other dragons considering he technically is a dragon.
@@mitchryan257 would make sense as if you think about the make up of "Dragonborn" and then look at Akatosh whom is a Dragon it would make them demigods born from the strongest of the Nine and the Septims were revered as descendants of Tiber Septim (aka Talos) except Martin who a) was a bastard and b) worked at the only temple in Cyrodil devoted to Akatosh hince his turning into an Avatar of said god
@@nickmills8906 also the fact the amulet he broke to turn himself into said dragon god contained what was essentially dragon blood in it. Basically contained god blood that was aligned with Akatosh. It was the blood itself that transformed inside the amulet of kings combined with likely his loyalty to akatosh that made it happen. Because if not that second reason it would literally mean that any random shitter that broke the amulet of kings would become a dragon god. All the emperors leading up to Martin had the Dragonborn blood in their veins just could never unlock it the fast way because well no dragons. They all had this because they were essentially descendants of Alesia who made the pact with akatosh to even get the amulet of kings. This also makes me think about the fact that in all technicality the Dragonborn is by definition the rightful next ruler of Tamriel because no matter what you debate he’s got the same blood that all the previous emperors had. And if you think about it what happened directly after the emperor was no longer selected because of dragon blood well the empire got its ass handed to it by a bunch of magic wielding elves. I think it would be a cool detail to have the Dragonborn from Skyrim become the next emperor. And we not get to see them but we can see their orders if there’s a storyline to go after the thapmor in high rock in the next game. Like our main character starts working for the empire or has the choice to. And we hear a mention of the one with dragon blood taking over and bringing a rebound in the prosperity of the empire. But of course there’s all this hidden stuff about towers that hold up the realm of nirn if you look really closely to the lore. And in Skyrim another one of those towers just got fucked by the thalmor. And it’s also likely that another one of these towers collapsed in morrowind causing red mountain to blow the fuck up fucking vvardenfell. Everytime one of these towers gets destroyed massive natural disasters occur. We get hinted at these events in the underground in Skyrim the place with the massive mushrooms. Essentially from what I’ve gathered there are very few of these towers left and one of the few that is left is in high rock. So I don’t about you guys but it sounds like tge thalmor are trying to go after these towers and “reset” the world but it will likely just erase everyone from existence. You know fanatical elves who think they’re superior than everyone else and want to wipe out all other races. Sounds familiar doesn’t it. Point being the thalmor need to be wiped out to stop them from getting close to any more of these towers. This is just a theory crafted from a lot of hidden small details. But it makes sense in the long scheme of things. It would certainly help explain why red mountain blew up and at the same time the ghost sea or whatever it is near the college of winter hold decided to happen at the same time. I’d never heard of a volcano causing a tidal wave. Yknow. There’s got to be something there at least.
It's not a matter of being allowed as much as it is about being able to learn from anyone other than the gray beards and thus not being bound to the stupid oath and philosophy of the gray beards to not use an obvious weapons gifted to mankind by a war goddess to fight to defend themselves. Also, they have no authority over a dragon demigod, or those Draugr, or those Dragons.
Another way to put it is the dragonborn not technically a mortal ether they have the body of a mortal but soul of a dragon the dragonborn using the thum is no different than a dragon using it
I think Ulfric is wrong, because he used to be one of the Greybeards and learned to use the Thu'um as part of the Way of the Voice. (so he is like that stereotypical bad guy who learned martial art to beat people up) You didn't subscribe to the same philosophy and your power isn't the result of practicing the Way. So why should you be bound by its ethics? (The Greybeards may disagree as they would prefer if you adopted their way, but you don't answer to them.)
He was trained by them, but he chose to abandon their philosophy of peace. It wasn't a decision he made lightly, he believed that he needed to fight for his country. He's definitely a much more complex character than the "stereotypical bad guy who learned martial arts to beat people up". He was a child when he went to the Greybeards, and he felt compelled to fight for his people when the Aldmeri invasion occurred.
@@rrockstarrj I don't think the High King is a moral arbiter though. Fact is, if you beat the civil war on the Empire's side before the main quest, you can actually find Ulfric in Sovngarde. But the condition to get into Sovngarde is only to be a Nord and die valiantly. *It has nothing to do with being right or moral.* Anyone who got admitted to Sovngarde such as Torygg probably would agree that ending up there is good. It's a nice place after all. So if by "right" you mean what the Nordic religion considers impressive then sure, but that's not what most people either in-universe or in-real-life would say. I hope we don't subscribe to the philosophy that going out in a battle automatically makes you morally right.
@@dashua1735 Not being a Greybeard anymore, so not following their code regardless of whether or not they'd agree. Not sure what your argument is for either.
Technically speaking the DB is not entirely human. You know what im saying? If you talk to parth he says we are basically alike and from the same "father" Akatosh.
The reason the DB isn't shamed for it is because they are dragon in Mortal Coil. They have the soul of a dragon, and no one in their right mind would tell a Dohv not to speak, to do so would surely invite death.
Also even if that technicality didn't exist we're technically not using it fir conquest like Ulfric. We're using it to foght the threats of the world I think Kyne will be ok with us saving the very people who worship her and the other Divines and Akatosh will definitely back us on that
Bulgruuf will also use the voice if you siege Whiterun with the Stormcloaks. I think the idea is more that the voice is not to be used for attacking and conquering but it is permissible to use it in one's own defense. Sort of like carrying a concealed handgun in the modern age. It is wholly unacceptable to use it to attack someone but acceptable to use it to defend oneself.
@@LordOceanus exactly and you're using it to attack others but they're bandits and dragons who attack innocent people just going about their day to day
It wasn't that it was illegal or immoral to use the thuum in combat, it was that ulfric used it in a DUEL which is supposed to have both of the fighters on even footing so using the thuum in that case is dishonorable and dirty.
Yes, but also, no. It is not illegal or immoral, but he joined the grey beards, and every grey beard has to take an oath to only use it in worship of the gods. Olfrick used it in a blasphemous way to try and take over skyrim.
The use of magic and especially the Thu'um isn't forbidden. You can use all of your power and skills in a Nordic duel to take down your opponent, whether if that means killing him or defeating him. See the duel between Sigdis Gauldurson (a tongue and a mage) against Archmage Geirmund to see what I'm talking about. Ulfric wasn't dishonorable neither dirty.
@@phaseing_reality he himself is honest with that thing and admits that he has fallen from his teachings. But even then, he still respects them in his own way because he's doing the primordial thing that they teached him: don't use the thu'um to martial *exploits* . Ulfric only used the Thu'um twice and for crucial moments. He didn't used it in The Great War, neither in the ambush against Tullius because that would've meant the death of his men during the skirmish. He still tries to hold his power precisely, not abuse of it. It's not entirely right, but he's not being completely immoral or dishonorable.
@@JoseAlejandro-xc6fb There is a difference between duels of magical means and regular sword on sword, the duel ulfric challenged the high king to was one of martial skill not magical prowess, additionally, nords look down upon magic use as unskilled and cowardly, for proof look to the college of winter hold and the story of the norm student there. Overall the duel Ulfric instigated was a martial duel, not a magical one thus the use of magic to get an unfair advantage is dirty. Also, Ulfric was in no way an honorable man, he was blinded by his misled cause and a complete moron, he kills without thought and persecutes non nords endlessly.
@@solarsoldier2456 There's no difference. There's only one duel, a Nordic duel. There's no "martial duel" or "magic duel". Ulfric's duel was a Nordic duel, just as the duel between Geirmund and Sigdis was a Nordic duel. So there's no exception or difference that forbids the use of the thu'um or magic. Period. Furthermore, Nords look down upon magic with the exception of the Thu'um, that's their ancestral technique of magic, the reason why many Nords revere Tongues like Ulfric. Furthermore x2, Ulfric is indeed honorable, i don't get from where you said he isn't. -He's not blinded by his cause, he's in fact being pragmatic and knows that for Skyrim to properly defeat the Thalmor in another war, the Empire has to be driven from Skyrim. It's only a decaying government that's not even able to rule by themselves, and expects us to believe they would be able to rule an army to victory? The one who are blinded are those that think like that. -Ulfric is not a moron, if he would be a moron, he wouldn't be able to continuously winning the war trough attrition tactics with the few men he has (it's confirmed by several sources, Tullius included). He's a capable leader, a capable soldier and someone who's more aware and prepare for Skyrim future than many. Plus, he's running much better his hold than Elisif and her complete court in Haafingar. -He doesn't kill without thought, he's not a savage, i don't know from where you get that. -And that of "persecutes non Nords endlessly"? Seriously, what game do you played? Ulfric never behaves racist and he treats you with respect no matter your race. Almost all Stormcloak courts have a non Nord and Galmar allows non nords to join in the Stormcloaks ranks. But right, just because two drunken beggars harass a dunmer is sufficient proof to point out ALL of the Stormcloaks and the same Ulfric as racist. Be pragmatic and objective. Don't be biased please.
Actually, the Thu'um was taught to the Nords by Paarthurnax, in order to fight and overthrow the Dragon overlords. So yeah, the Thu'um was literally taught to the Nords for war. It wasn't until the Nords lost at Red Mountain to the Dunmer, did Jurgen Windcaller create the pacifistic "Way of the Voice". This aligned with Paarthurnax's own attempts to control his draconic nature to dominate.
Ulrich is also in trouble because he studied the way of the voice to develop his thum. And the grey beards also very much dislike you using it to fight, almost refusing to help you to stop alduin when they realize you intend to use it as a weapon instead of joining their creed
The thu'um is the language of the dragon, And when the greybeards learn a shout they have to meditate for years before even learning a singular word, But the DB isn't held by that philosophy due to them being a dragon trapped within a mortal vessel so its kinda like saying your not allowed to be the DB even though your literally the DB
it’s just mind blowing that a game someone made has a history & lore this deep 😅 guarantee you there are countless mfs who know more Skyrim history than IRL history
I wonder how that conversation went down between akotosh and Kynreth. Yo i need that magic voice thing to be given to my champion so he can kill my disobedient son, throw some bands my way Kyne.
Also, Ulfric Stormcloak did the Skyrim equivalent of challenging someone to a fist fight and dropped a nuke on their head when they came to meet his challenge. So Ulfric was misusing The Voice in multiple ways.
Im about 99% sure its never stated their are any rules to duel other than its a one vs one. So yes using the voice is probably perfectly fine, same as if the high king pulled a crossbow or some nonsense.
@damackabet.4611 you're missing the point. It was disrespectful and dishonorable regardless and a complete misuse of The Voice. Also, comparing pulling out a crossbow to pulling out a nuclear warhead is a pretty weak argument. The descriptions of what happened heavily imply that Ulfric used Unrelenting Force, a few guards actually thinking Ulfric Shouted him into dust, meaning that he pulled it out immediately. You can't excuse how dirty Ulfric played against the High King. Furthermore, the way the Greybeard who actually talks puts it, Ulfric came to them, learned how to produce a Thu'um, and then immediately went and blasted the High King. Rules or no rules, what Ulfric did is scummy and an abuse of the power he gained.
What? I thought it was because ulfric challenged the dead high king to fair and honest combat and using the thuum against a non-voice user is bringing a gun to a knife fight.
Who cares ? Nords were gifted the Thu'Um for war Mastering the Thu'Um is a proof of power and tradition Which Torygg didn't have It's like saying "This Muay Thaï guy is a pussy because he used a Low Kick against an Hooligan in a Street Fight" Also, Thu'Um isn't magic
@@OuhHey the thu'um isn't magic but it's still not fair and honest in a fair and honest combat trial. Saying "who cares, it's made for war" is literally like bringing a gun to knife fight or if you still want to go with the combat sports analogy it's like bringing a weapon into the octagon. Who cares? Martial arts were made for war just like weapons, right? Sure they both served the same purpose but they're very different and have different rule sets when it comes to sanctioned things. That's why no one brings weapons to the octagon and half of Skyrim said ulfric was a dirty bitch.
@@Ultimate_Gamer_3000 Stupid argument : *Using the Thu'Um in Fight AND in Duels was a part of Nordic Tradition for ages* And it was way before "The Way of the Voice" was even invented Not by Kyne btw, but by a random Warchief named Jurgen Windcaller that interpreted the nordic defeat on the Red Moutain as a sign the Goddess was displeased with him And even at the time, his "Ideology" wasn't popular, and wasn't the majority It just happen than the last people that learns the Voice are people that believe in this ideology But the Dragonborn, or Ulfric, is by no means obligated to the Greybeards or their Ideology The analogy with a gun is also stupid : - Torygg could have learnt the Thu'Um, like anyone can learn how to land a low kick or how to grapple - But he didn't, like some people IRL don't - And he died for that, like some people IRL get their ass whooped in fight for that On the other hand, Ulfric did And he won Proving by this fact that : - He was a better fighter than Torygg - He was more dedicated to the Old Nordic Tradition, and to gaining Power, than Torygg Ulfric had a competence, not a tool nor an object that almost anyone can use after 10 minutes of drills Ulfric had a capability, something that he had to work for years to achieve in a certain level of mastery And this thing is the Thu'Um, and is much more comparable to any IRL Martial Art than a Gun It is also Peak Tradition in the Nordic Skyrim It is both Tradition and Dedication And something I don't get Is why people are stuoid, or like to act stupid, when we discuss about this subject : As everyone in the game says, Ulfric was a better fighter than Torygg and he dominated the fight even before using the Thu'Um So let met ask you a question : - *If Ulfric didn't need the Thu'Um to win the duel, why has he used it ?* I'll give you the anwser : - *It was Political. To prove what I explained above, about Tradition, Dedication, and Dedication to Tradition, to the Old Nordic Ways*
The thing is, normal Nords (or any other race) need extreme training to properly master a single Thu'um. That's an unfair advantage over other nords. And (most) Nords fight honorably in equal fights. That's why the Greybeards teach everyone to use the Thu'um only in worship to priotect it's purity and reputation. And normally, we don't value what we can do easily despite it's importance (like breathing) so we don't care about discipline about the Thu'um. We use it like it's just another magic stuff. If you ask me, i rarely use Thu'um in combat. I mostly use Whirlwind sprint, Clear skies and Dragonrend. Mostly because the enemies are like noodles to me now. And we don't have any powerful shout at lower levels
Before Skyrim (the game) only nords could shout, and it was a form of magic accepted as a weapon. The devs retcon the nords lore and in ES5 they were nothing more then a bunch of weak ass imperialized dudes, nothing nordic about them.
@@Gabriel-wn6oc i kinda low key feel Nords are nerfed too. Like in Morrowind they have complete immunity to frost and 50% to lightning. I almost believed that traps in Solstheim are bugged because they didn't do anything to me. Now in ES5 Nords are basically drunk brutes at best. The Nords earlier could shout (maybe something to do with Atmoran devolution) the change can also be felt with The Companions who were founded when Nords were Atmorans, and Atmorans respected magic as well (pointed out by Tsun) and now they thrash you for using ut (pointed out by Vilkas)
@@Gabriel-wn6oc The Pocket Guide to the Empire (First Edition) already stated that the Voice was no longer used as a weapon, and that one was published with the release of TESA: Redguard.
I never felt that people hated Ulfric for using the Thuum in general, even when it comes to fighting. I think the fact that he used it to kill his king who was a literal teenager was not only unfair but cowardly after asking for a duel. It's like showing up with a gun to a knife fight and then laughing it off.
Instead of bringing a gun to a knife fight I would say that it's more like bringing a leclerc MBT armed with an autoloading GIAT CN120-26/52 120mm tank gun, and with modular composite armor to a knife fight
First of all the king was not a teenager, he was in his 20s. Secondly as far as im aware we dont know the rules magic/thuum/crossbows anything could be used as long as it was one vs one as far as we are aware. The main reason some demonize it in game is because its their guy who lost, had the high king won by using the thuum everyone on his side would have cheered. Their only upset because their guy lost.
I love how the The Elder Skrolls is also litarally apart of the story majorly because its like an infinite knowledge which allows any person to see everything they couldve been but this also makes them blind of some sort which makes so much sense and also gives lore to every players playthrough and allows anything that couldve been be anything at once.
You can come across dialogue with Aerngir, where he lets you know of the information from your video. Super useful to know because it's not repeated anywhere in the game, and is such a small detail players can easily forget. It's literally a few sentences of dialogue, and that's it.
I wanna point out you can find an old generals journal tracking the progress of his seige on a dragonpreist's barrow. And in it he says he requested reinforcements in the form of a voice user to break down their walls. And says that the young voice user successfully destroyed theur walls but took an arrow to the neck and died afterwards. Meaning that voice users were valubal assests in times of war, and certainly not universally Pacifists like the gray beards
I do believe that journal is either from the dragon wars. Where they were fighting ancient dragons hundreds of years prior to even the first elder scrolls game. Or he was from Tiber Septims age (1st or 2nd age) where the use of the voice had a dramatic shift while he was emperor because he was the emperor and a voice user. Everyone went back to peaceful again immediately after his death though. Skyrim is in the 4th age.
A lot of people are trying to be wierd and argue about ulfric and other stuff here so let me be plain with you guys.
I am NOT discussing ulfric here, only bringing up the argument i hear sometimes about him being judged. I am mostly talking about why the dragonborn isnt judged for using the Thu'um. Thats it 🤦♂️
Yo
@@NotthefirstDovahkiinHoonding is better than Talos 🙃
How is it weird that people are talking about ulfric stormcloak in a literal Skyrim video 😂😂
@@Xippone2093bc they missed the point and actual question. reread what he said slowly
??? You don't get letters from a "friend" telling you that you caused quite a stir in (random locations) when you use your shout? Everytime you shout you're being judged. Also put on namiras ring or weild molag bol mace n be a werewolf and city guards will diss you saying things like " you smell like a wet dog", they'll tell you to get the mace away from them , and after eating someone with namiras ring on they'll rag on your breath being stank. 😂😅 Enjoy!
arngeir says its an exception. basically, the dragonborn is meant to use it in combat, unlike the followers of the way of the voice.
Exactly thats why theyvare gifted it by Akatosh :D
@@infinitybreak4459 ya know a lot of people say the dragonborn in skyrim is an avatar of akatosh but i think hes more a shezarrine. kinda like pelinal or talos. i mean think about it. shor and auriel, the elven akatosh, hate each others guts. auriel ripped shors heart from his chest. the nords and the elven races have history of war. the nords are of the belief that lorkhan was a hero, while the aldmer, and by extension modern elves, believe lorkhan to be a sinister trickster. alduin is the nordic auriel. the last dragonborn is in direct opposition of an aspect of akatosh, so does it really make sense for him to be a champion of akatosh? is it not more reasonable to assume he is a shezzarine? it would explain why he was given an afterlife in sovnguarde, regardless of race, by tsun in dialogue. just food for thought.
I think its because we are a Dragon and dragons don’t adhere to the way of the voice until partysnax intervenes. We are humans with the body of a mortal but SOUL of a dragon therefore we aren’t human thus not expected to follow any rules. If we probably wanted to the Last Dragonborn would be a god like being considering there’s theories on him being reincarnations of both Shor and Akatosh himself
@@adamallen7070 the dragonborn does not literally have the soul of a dragon though. they have a soul enlightened by the dragon god. they dont literally have a dragon soul. they absorb the souls of dead dragons but they dont actually have any real kinship with the dovah. its more a connection to akatosh that gives some form of kinship. people take the whole dragonborn title far too literal.
@@bigboyemotheescamo78 Its stated that you're a mortal with the soul of a dragon, and dragons are capable of absorbing the souls of their fallen bretheren. You don't have the body of a dragon obviously, but even Durnehviir felt inclined to treat you as a fellow Dovah even before you find out you're dragonborn
"Your honor, it's not a crime against nature if it's in my client's nature to do it." Saulus Goodmer
I want a better call saul skyrim edition
"Did you know that you have rights? The Elder Scrolls say you do, and so do I!"
lol
Dont drink skooma and ride a horse.
But if you do, Better call Saul!
@@infinitybreak4459there's another youtuber called Naiwal and he recently made this parody as a skit! Better Call Thrall
"dont use it as a weapon"
*Gives me the ability to shoot fire and rip the soul out of a living creature with just my voice*
if a normal person went around doing that, his Thu'um would diminish as Kyne would be offended by the blasphemous misuse of the gift.
@@enderman_of_d00m24 That is entirely you making shit up. Jurgen Windcaller founded the Way of the Voice after the nords lost at Red Mountain; it was his attempt to explain why that happened. The nords had been using the voice as a weapon for thousands of years by that point.
i mean, in real life you can kill people, and you are also discouraged to do it
I used to think The Soul tear shout is durnahvirr only, until I play eso and see other dragons keep spamming that move
Because they can't stop you. If Greybeards tried to shout the dragonborn into stopping, canonically, he would withstand their attempt, learn the shouts being used at him, then shout back and obliterate them.
nah, you'd be frozen solid and fall off the mountain for 15 minutes until you hit a rock and die.
or glitch out half way down
I'm pretty sure if Lorgar was transplanted into the Elder Scrolls, he would say something like that to get the Dovahkiin to join him in taking over Tamriel.
have you ever punched a greaybeard, cause no you cant beat them
If I'm correct, weren't the greybeards in lore the only other known beings to defeat the Dragonborn, at least together as one?
@@traceyjacobsen8544 yup, they're incredibly strong
Lore explanation:
Unlike greybeards that follow a philosophy of peace, where using Kynareth's gift of Voice for offensive violence is seen as an insult, the Dragonborn never pledged themself to this philosophy to learn Thu'um, because they already know it. It's a part of him and his nature.
It would literally be like to convince an actual dragon not to breathe fire or speak.
Also lore explanation:
It's the Dragonborn, who the fuck is going to stop him.
Ikr, going off the lore a level 81 dragonborn would be capapble of some pretty crazy shit
Lol exactly
Yeah, they beat Alduin. The same character, who fights Mehrunes Dagon every now and then, and never loses.
The dragonborn is stronger than a daedric prince. How is Kyne gonna stop 'em?
funny thing if you shout enough in towns the guards stop you then say "you are making everyone nervous", Another thing i did notice is that if you still do it people will help you find the remaining shouts so you don’t need to fully complete the grey beard radiant questline to get all shouts you can get them via “ letter from a friend” quests. My own head cannon for this they see you like the local super hero and want to make you stronger so some people like it others don’t. You also have to remember the last person to openly use one before the game starts used a shout and killed a high king lol.
@@callumkristofer7793 wait I’m pretty sure alduin hasn’t fought Dagon before. cus alduin and akatosh are separate entities and akatosh is the fighting dagon (or a least someone channeling akatosh like with Martin Septim
‘You merely adopted the Thu’um I was was born with it, molded by it. I didn’t see the greybeards until I was a already a man.’
Literaly me, not reaching to High Hrothgar until lvl30
@@somefallenleaves It's funny that you should take 2 dragon souls and complete the Bard Questline before reaching to High Hrothgar for easy 3 Word "Wuld Nah Kest"
I just saw the greybeards on my modded play through just to get to a new area I am level 68
Holy shit...this is good.
'and by then I was already SHOUTING'
Well, the Dragonborn IS a dragon in a mortal vessel.
Like, you said. They are gifted by Akatosh. More than that, as a dragon they are more or less the child of Akatosh.
So our dad is a dragon hmm interesting which is kinda funny because if our Skyrim character had offspring would they have any dragon power
@@mattiaskalstrum5649They would be like the Septims.. dragonborn.. but as humans with dragon blood.. not like The Last Dragonborn who is an actual Dragon.. spirit and everything, but in a human body.
Saying the Dragonborn isn't allowed to use the Thu'um is like telling a dragon they aren't allowed to speak.
It's not "like saying" it's "is saying" since dragonborn is a dragon in a mortal vessel
*Kyne* : - Only use the voice to prayers. Only use it in peace.
*Akatosh* : - *Come one, Fuz Ro Dah them from High Hrothgar, do it!*
Kyne: My child won't use thre Thu'um for violence
Akatosh: Fuck it we ball
Your comment legit made me spew my soda laughing harder than i should have...i tip my hat to u good sir 🤣 LMAO
Ancient Nords used thu'um justifiedly to revolt against Alduin and Dragon Cult. It only became questionable when they used it in offensive warfare like Battle of Red Mountain. After defeat in that battle, Greybeards were founded as a mean to learn and Thuum with higher, nobler purpose.
@@niceguytm1741I dunno, that kinda sounds like ancient nord (aka Big Drauger) industry propoganda.
@@atashgallagher5139 which one? The reason of Greybeards' founding or Nords' rebellion against dragon?
I mean... Who's gonna stop me?
It's you!!
Quicksaves with malicious intent
I thought that was the real reason.
In lore the Dragonborn is a one-man-army.
Have you TRIED fighting the Greybeards? They will mess you up.
@@TheOriginalJphyper I already did...It was pretty easy.
I always figured that the dragonborn isn't entirely mortal. Due to their draconic soul, the Dovahkiin *is* a dragon, just in mortal form, meaning that the Voice would be their right by blood and/or birth, the same as any other dragon.
This is why I'm argonian half the time. If I'm gonna be a dragon in mortal form I wanna look draconic to a degree.
Dovahkiin is a Demi god
Its clearly stated in spoken dialouge by the greybeards that the dragonborn isnt bound by the same rules as other people, i have zero clue why some people actually dont know why the dragonborn can use the voice for anything they want. So since ulfric aint dragonborn and he learned how to use the voice from the greybeards hes bound by the rules about it being wrong to use the voice in combat and wont ever be welcomed back to the greybeards as he broke a major rule of theirs.
@@rrockstarrj it's after they realized what kind of person ulfric truly was and made him leave that they stopped caring about him, if someone learns how to use the voice by being taught for years by the greybeards the very least you can do is not miss use it especially since their whole teachings is to use the voice as way of getting enlightenment not power. Only the dragonborn who gets his power from akatosh directly and can learn the voice without the greybeards teachings can use the voice for combat and not get shunned by the greybeards. Also them not being the original creators of the way of the voice literally doesn't matter as they're the disciples of the creator and continue the teachings in their stead.
@@stephenbyers6173
The point you wrong is, it's not the users who have to follow the rule, it's the voice itself who are binded by them, so if Ulfric was able to use it and it being powerfull is because it was legitimate, they just diden't saw it coming as no one remembered it existed so they was no rule again it, it was a fight about themself and the weapon they can lift, what surprised them so much is that emperial scum diden't saw that coming and where unhappy bad loser especially sinse it was their puppet.
@@orctrihar The Jarls knew of the thu'um and called it sacred.
If Ulfric had just fought with a blade, and killed Toryigg that way, the Jarls would have sided with him.
Furthermore, the Dragonborn are neither Men nor Mer- they're dragons, stuffed into mortal bodies and sent forth to do what dragons do- fight, kill, conquer, and impose their will on the world. They are equivalent to demigods or angels, and to tell them how to use the Voice is tantamount to blasphemy.
Bold of you to assume blasphemy is bad
@@Eshtian i mean, when the guy youre committing blasphemy against can yell at you until you die i think blasphemy is a little bad
Yet everyone in town treats you like shit lol
@@-kvz-8829 “I don’t have to take that from you!” - some random guy in random discount armor who got the unrelenting force shout surprise
Wait like literally they are not human? I knew they were supposed to be like honourary dragons but I didn't realise the dragonborn were actually dragon souls
You can ask the Greybeards this, and they will give you a different answer: That you're an exception to all the rules, because the gods gave a warrior the Thu'um for a reason.
Also, before Skyrim retconned it, there was supposed to be a Thu'um war college in Markarth founded by Talos himself.
Is it a different answer? The gods give the Dragonborn the Voice for a reason. That's what the guy said here too.
Sounds like something Ulfric should've had in Windhelm but I think for most people it takes several years just to learn one shout
They actually say that you are gifted by akatosh and thats why you are an exception to the rule, so they say exacly the same thing.
Yeah, I'm still kind annoyed that war college wasn't included (I.e. the lore for TES5 was dumbed down the make it simpler instead of more interesting... *cough*Great Collapse *cough*). Hopefully someone will make a proper guild questline mod with that war college in at some point, a few more shouts and the chance to fight other thu'um users who subscribe to that philosophy instead of the Way of the Voice.
@@antiochus87is the great collapse about the thing with the Mage’s Guild and Winterhold or whatever?
I will always love how playable characters in Elder Scrolls games can become these overpowered monsters that nobody can really stop.
Like, the Nerevarine brought down not one, but 4 different gods in their time, and is still probably running around doing whatever they want. Could be off studying the races in Akavir for all we know.
The Champion of Cyrodill prevented an invasion by Mehrunes F-ing Dagon, the God of DESTRUCTION who successfully invaded to destroy an Empire of Dreugh in a previous Kalpa, and then the Champion defeated Jyggalag, and mantled his madness, becoming the new Sheogorath. To top it all off, the Champion was literally just a normal person. No god blood or special powers. Just a normal Human, or Autistic cat depending on who you ask.
And the Dragonborn is a literal God at this point. Sure, they may have a mortal body, but they have the soul of a literal dragon from Akatosh himself. You know, Akatosh? The crazy dragon god of time with like 3 different personalities. (Lorkan is better by the way, sorry Mer, but Humanity number one). But, let's be honest, Akatosh created the Dragonborn for the sole reason of kicking Alduin into the timeout corner of Aetherius, until the God's get sick of this Kalpa and hit the new game plus version of Mundus. Good luck with that though, when there's a Dragonborn so powerful they can probably scream a pocket universe into existence simply because they're bored. And if you think they can't do that, well the Dragonborn has become the (possibility reluctant), Champion of Hermaeus Mora, Eldritch God of knowledge and president of the "Sucker for love" Fan club. So again, if you think the Dragonborn can't do this, they can certainly learn how to do this from Hermaeus "Just install mods lmao" Mora.
I can go on and on about the accomplishments of all *5* protagonists, but I think the point has been made. I wonder how Bethesda is going to top this in the Elder Scrolls 6: Skyrim 2 edition. Now if you’ll excuse me, I've forgotten what grass feels like, so I must rectify this. May the dragon blood serve you well. Peace.
You have a dovah's way with words bro
Odahviing I thought you left the speeches for me and Parthurnnax... Wait you're not Odahviing
If it's the land of the Redguards.. they have their over powered godly entities too.. the Swordsingers.. etc..
The Champion of Cyradill has already taken the might and the mantle of Sheogorath and no one like to mess with a daedric prince. The Champion didn't defeat Mehrunes Dagon, it was Martin the MVP.
@@Junkzillaboxthat Sword singer thing is basically Rakudai kishi anime in a nutshell. Both use their soul to make weapon.
The problem is not that Ulfric uses the voice, the problem is that he used the voice in a duel to glorify himself. If he used voice to fight hordes of enemies and dragons like the dragonborn does, there would be no problem.
It's also possible that it's just due to an interpretation. I don't believe Kyne necessarily outright said "Hey don't use the Thu'um for battle", but rather that after the great loss Skyrim had at Red Mountain, Jurgen Windcaller believed that the Nords lost because the gods were displeased at their abuse of the Thu'um. So you could argue that the idea of "Not using the Voice for battle unless you're Dragonborn" is really more a social construct that the Greybeards like to say is a hard and fast rule, whether it is actually true or not.
You make a very good point I think this might mirror real life religion where through years of telephone and interpretation sonething as simple as "dont abuse your power" was turned into "we cannot use this power"
Yeah greybeards said not to use thu'um for "glory of men". But greybeards will use thu'um to defend themselfs. Mortals were given the voice also partly to stand a chance against tyranny of dragons.
How did a bunch of Nords using unrelenting force rag dolling and throwing swathes of people lose a battle. That's just some massive incompetence on their part
@@cvi4057 I believe their thu'um faltered during the battle dur to kyne more than likely intervening to weaken their shouts or out right stripping it away
this makes sense, because there are too many characters that use the voice as a weapon
I think a lot of the anger around Ulfric’s use of the voice is that he had used it dishonourably in his duel with High King Torygg. Instead of fighting him properly, Torygg was “shouted to pieces”.
Yeah, although in the afterlife you can find high king toryg who's says it was fair and square
Ulfric may not be of Jurgen's school of thought but that doesn't mean Torygg lost unfairly
I think both Ulfric and Torygg said Ulfric killed him with his sword
@@lincolngravemann682 I mean, likely Torygg views magic and tradition closer to the Imperials than the dogmatic Nords of Skyrim. Yes tradition is sacred to Nords, yet their view on magic is pretty consistently negative. That and, while Ulfric says his sword did finish him, he openly admits to using the voice to disarm Torygg, which again might make him seem cowardly to some.
@@tsilentv9702 yeah continuing the fight after disarming I can see how some would find it dishonorable
Nords were gifted the voice to combat the dragons, not for worship. The way of the voice was created by windcaller after the war. The reason the dragon born learns it faster is because of the dragons blood. He can learn and use it as a dragon rather than a person. To use shoots as a normal person you must understand each words meaning and intent which takes time. As dragonborn you learn the words and absorb the knowledge from the dragons you kill. Hence why the dragonborn can use it faster than anyone.and only the greybeards follow the way of the voice and that following says it should not be used to as a weapon against the people as it was gifted so the Nordstrom could fight off the dragons. Nothing actually prevents one from learning it and using it in combat since the only ones that look down on it is the gray beards. The reasons why ulfric was frowned upon were different. Since the imperial called it murder but the stormcloaks say he challenged him to a proper duel and ulfric won.
The greybeard Say IT to us ! We (dragonborn) can use it the way we want cause it's a gift from the gods
Because The Last Dragonborn does whatever the fuck he wants.
Correct anwser
The role of the dragonborn is to defeat Alduin. In other words: The Dragonborn is the reset button for the reset button.
Nah, it’s the baby of the family bullying the oldest.
Eh, Alduin had gone off script. Wanting to conquer and rule the world rather than destroy it. The Dragonborn was a troubleshooter, killing the corrupt code so that it could be recreated properly. In other words, by killing Alduin you’ve actually enabled the gods to fix their Armageddon button
In otherwords, the Greybeards are technically an optional sidequest.
I don't think it has anything to do with being "allowed" and everything to do with "who the fuck is going to stop you"
Lmao
I thought the issue with Ulfric was that he Shouted during a dual against an opponent he really didn't need to use it on.
Which, interestingly, the Dragonborn isn't allowed to do during say, an agreed upon Brawl. You get chewed out in a similar way to Ulfric.
He actually explains that the Voice didn't kill him but his blade did. The Thu'um was just a means to stagger or disorient him.
@@shademournthepegasi2366 Either way, it was a scummy move on Ulfric's part, and I say that as a Stormcloak supporter
@@alphateam6580 does Toryogg even admit it was a fair fight when you meet him when confronting alduin in the final fight?
He used Thuum in the fight where no magic allowed, its literaly like come to a fight with no allowed weapons or firearms and strike oponents with a car
@@somefallenleaves Hence why Ulfric is so divisive even amongst Nords. It draws an equal mix of "YEAAAAAH SKYRIM IS FOR THE NORDS" and ". . . Wait, that's illegal."
The Dragonborn is basically a reincarnated dragon, Paarthurnax also recognizes the Dragonborn as a fellow dov. Definitely different rules.
P.S. Miraak was right.
Miraak was wrong with "I could kill Alduin". If you spawn Miraak next to Alduin with console commands then Alduin will always win
@@indrickboreale7381 Of course, Miraak would have lost. It was just a cheap show-off "I could have killed him myself. I just didn't want to, yeah. I was too busy kissing the ass of a Daedra prince with tentacles. I meant... I AM THE FIRST DRAGONBORN, ALDUIN IS AN INSIGNIFICANT WORM COMPARED TO ME!!!
@@indrickboreale7381 we have to separate game mechanics from lore though. For instance, Dagoth Ur in Morrowind was weaker than a werewolf.
Although when I said “Miraak was right,” I am referring to Miraak thinking that he should had been worshiped along with the other dragons considering he technically is a dragon.
@@mitchryan257 would make sense as if you think about the make up of "Dragonborn" and then look at Akatosh whom is a Dragon it would make them demigods born from the strongest of the Nine and the Septims were revered as descendants of Tiber Septim (aka Talos) except Martin who a) was a bastard and b) worked at the only temple in Cyrodil devoted to Akatosh hince his turning into an Avatar of said god
@@nickmills8906 also the fact the amulet he broke to turn himself into said dragon god contained what was essentially dragon blood in it. Basically contained god blood that was aligned with Akatosh. It was the blood itself that transformed inside the amulet of kings combined with likely his loyalty to akatosh that made it happen. Because if not that second reason it would literally mean that any random shitter that broke the amulet of kings would become a dragon god. All the emperors leading up to Martin had the Dragonborn blood in their veins just could never unlock it the fast way because well no dragons. They all had this because they were essentially descendants of Alesia who made the pact with akatosh to even get the amulet of kings. This also makes me think about the fact that in all technicality the Dragonborn is by definition the rightful next ruler of Tamriel because no matter what you debate he’s got the same blood that all the previous emperors had. And if you think about it what happened directly after the emperor was no longer selected because of dragon blood well the empire got its ass handed to it by a bunch of magic wielding elves. I think it would be a cool detail to have the Dragonborn from Skyrim become the next emperor. And we not get to see them but we can see their orders if there’s a storyline to go after the thapmor in high rock in the next game. Like our main character starts working for the empire or has the choice to. And we hear a mention of the one with dragon blood taking over and bringing a rebound in the prosperity of the empire. But of course there’s all this hidden stuff about towers that hold up the realm of nirn if you look really closely to the lore. And in Skyrim another one of those towers just got fucked by the thalmor. And it’s also likely that another one of these towers collapsed in morrowind causing red mountain to blow the fuck up fucking vvardenfell. Everytime one of these towers gets destroyed massive natural disasters occur. We get hinted at these events in the underground in Skyrim the place with the massive mushrooms. Essentially from what I’ve gathered there are very few of these towers left and one of the few that is left is in high rock. So I don’t about you guys but it sounds like tge thalmor are trying to go after these towers and “reset” the world but it will likely just erase everyone from existence. You know fanatical elves who think they’re superior than everyone else and want to wipe out all other races. Sounds familiar doesn’t it. Point being the thalmor need to be wiped out to stop them from getting close to any more of these towers. This is just a theory crafted from a lot of hidden small details. But it makes sense in the long scheme of things. It would certainly help explain why red mountain blew up and at the same time the ghost sea or whatever it is near the college of winter hold decided to happen at the same time. I’d never heard of a volcano causing a tidal wave. Yknow. There’s got to be something there at least.
It's not a matter of being allowed as much as it is about being able to learn from anyone other than the gray beards and thus not being bound to the stupid oath and philosophy of the gray beards to not use an obvious weapons gifted to mankind by a war goddess to fight to defend themselves. Also, they have no authority over a dragon demigod, or those Draugr, or those Dragons.
Also the dragon born hold every daedric weapon, is a werewolf vampire hybrid and dropkicks dragons regularly so he does not give 2 shits about rules.
Technically he can only ever be a vampire or a werewolf so it’s more like a dragon werewolf hyprid or dragon vampire hybrid
Another way to put it is the dragonborn not technically a mortal ether they have the body of a mortal but soul of a dragon the dragonborn using the thum is no different than a dragon using it
I think Ulfric is wrong, because he used to be one of the Greybeards and learned to use the Thu'um as part of the Way of the Voice. (so he is like that stereotypical bad guy who learned martial art to beat people up) You didn't subscribe to the same philosophy and your power isn't the result of practicing the Way. So why should you be bound by its ethics? (The Greybeards may disagree as they would prefer if you adopted their way, but you don't answer to them.)
He was trained by them, but he chose to abandon their philosophy of peace. It wasn't a decision he made lightly, he believed that he needed to fight for his country. He's definitely a much more complex character than the "stereotypical bad guy who learned martial arts to beat people up". He was a child when he went to the Greybeards, and he felt compelled to fight for his people when the Aldmeri invasion occurred.
@@rrockstarrj I don't think the High King is a moral arbiter though. Fact is, if you beat the civil war on the Empire's side before the main quest, you can actually find Ulfric in Sovngarde. But the condition to get into Sovngarde is only to be a Nord and die valiantly. *It has nothing to do with being right or moral.* Anyone who got admitted to Sovngarde such as Torygg probably would agree that ending up there is good. It's a nice place after all.
So if by "right" you mean what the Nordic religion considers impressive then sure, but that's not what most people either in-universe or in-real-life would say. I hope we don't subscribe to the philosophy that going out in a battle automatically makes you morally right.
The greybeards literally say that the way of the voice is to use the voice for the worship of the gods. Guess what Ulfric is doing?
@@dashua1735 Not being a Greybeard anymore, so not following their code regardless of whether or not they'd agree. Not sure what your argument is for either.
@@noodlekeeper5150 My point is that he's still following the Way of the Voice, as he's using it for the worship of Talos
Akatosh : dont worry bro, he got the T word pass
Technically speaking the DB is not entirely human. You know what im saying?
If you talk to parth he says we are basically alike and from the same "father" Akatosh.
I would accept being what is essentially a demigod as sufficient reason for the rules that apply to normal mankind to not apply to the DB. 😂
@@benjaminoechsli1941 exactly. and hey, find someone who can suck a dragon soul and learn word within seconds.
The reason the DB isn't shamed for it is because they are dragon in Mortal Coil. They have the soul of a dragon, and no one in their right mind would tell a Dohv not to speak, to do so would surely invite death.
Jorgen: "the voice is not meant to be used as a weapon"
Dragons:......
Dragons: What? It's how we talk. And why would we just give you an opening to kill us? Prove you can best us.
@@willhornsby206imagine 2 dragons arguing which food is better Sweet roll or Vegetable soup.
@@uchophamxuan6515 the game loading tip say it is. verbal argument between dragons isn't that much different than a deadly duel.
Basically it is like trying to stop dragons from speaking.
"Yelling in a fight is illegal" 🤓
technically we're not Supposed to but I don't see anyone stopping us
The only one who can make him stop is his mammy when it’s late.
“Son you better stop shouting or I’m going to make stop shouting”
“Ok mam I’m sorry 😞”
Dragonborn: Who gon' stop me?
yeah and rocks arn't SUPPOSED to be hucked at animals, think thats stoppin anyone?
Also even if that technicality didn't exist we're technically not using it fir conquest like Ulfric. We're using it to foght the threats of the world
I think Kyne will be ok with us saving the very people who worship her and the other Divines and Akatosh will definitely back us on that
Bruh I am using it to throw kids off of mountains
Bulgruuf will also use the voice if you siege Whiterun with the Stormcloaks. I think the idea is more that the voice is not to be used for attacking and conquering but it is permissible to use it in one's own defense. Sort of like carrying a concealed handgun in the modern age. It is wholly unacceptable to use it to attack someone but acceptable to use it to defend oneself.
@@LordOceanus exactly and you're using it to attack others but they're bandits and dragons who attack innocent people just going about their day to day
@@LordOceanus I'm sorry, he what now. I did not see him do that when I rolled in with the Storm
@@danentakoto2701 Honestly looking back on it now I can't seem to find it so i'm probably mixing him up with Ulfric
It wasn't that it was illegal or immoral to use the thuum in combat, it was that ulfric used it in a DUEL which is supposed to have both of the fighters on even footing so using the thuum in that case is dishonorable and dirty.
Yes, but also, no. It is not illegal or immoral, but he joined the grey beards, and every grey beard has to take an oath to only use it in worship of the gods. Olfrick used it in a blasphemous way to try and take over skyrim.
The use of magic and especially the Thu'um isn't forbidden. You can use all of your power and skills in a Nordic duel to take down your opponent, whether if that means killing him or defeating him.
See the duel between Sigdis Gauldurson (a tongue and a mage) against Archmage Geirmund to see what I'm talking about.
Ulfric wasn't dishonorable neither dirty.
@@phaseing_reality he himself is honest with that thing and admits that he has fallen from his teachings.
But even then, he still respects them in his own way because he's doing the primordial thing that they teached him: don't use the thu'um to martial *exploits* . Ulfric only used the Thu'um twice and for crucial moments. He didn't used it in The Great War, neither in the ambush against Tullius because that would've meant the death of his men during the skirmish. He still tries to hold his power precisely, not abuse of it.
It's not entirely right, but he's not being completely immoral or dishonorable.
@@JoseAlejandro-xc6fb There is a difference between duels of magical means and regular sword on sword, the duel ulfric challenged the high king to was one of martial skill not magical prowess, additionally, nords look down upon magic use as unskilled and cowardly, for proof look to the college of winter hold and the story of the norm student there. Overall the duel Ulfric instigated was a martial duel, not a magical one thus the use of magic to get an unfair advantage is dirty. Also, Ulfric was in no way an honorable man, he was blinded by his misled cause and a complete moron, he kills without thought and persecutes non nords endlessly.
@@solarsoldier2456 There's no difference. There's only one duel, a Nordic duel. There's no "martial duel" or "magic duel".
Ulfric's duel was a Nordic duel, just as the duel between Geirmund and Sigdis was a Nordic duel. So there's no exception or difference that forbids the use of the thu'um or magic. Period.
Furthermore, Nords look down upon magic with the exception of the Thu'um, that's their ancestral technique of magic, the reason why many Nords revere Tongues like Ulfric.
Furthermore x2, Ulfric is indeed honorable, i don't get from where you said he isn't. -He's not blinded by his cause, he's in fact being pragmatic and knows that for Skyrim to properly defeat the Thalmor in another war, the Empire has to be driven from Skyrim. It's only a decaying government that's not even able to rule by themselves, and expects us to believe they would be able to rule an army to victory? The one who are blinded are those that think like that.
-Ulfric is not a moron, if he would be a moron, he wouldn't be able to continuously winning the war trough attrition tactics with the few men he has (it's confirmed by several sources, Tullius included). He's a capable leader, a capable soldier and someone who's more aware and prepare for Skyrim future than many. Plus, he's running much better his hold than Elisif and her complete court in Haafingar.
-He doesn't kill without thought, he's not a savage, i don't know from where you get that.
-And that of "persecutes non Nords endlessly"? Seriously, what game do you played? Ulfric never behaves racist and he treats you with respect no matter your race. Almost all Stormcloak courts have a non Nord and Galmar allows non nords to join in the Stormcloaks ranks.
But right, just because two drunken beggars harass a dunmer is sufficient proof to point out ALL of the Stormcloaks and the same Ulfric as racist.
Be pragmatic and objective. Don't be biased please.
Actually, the Thu'um was taught to the Nords by Paarthurnax, in order to fight and overthrow the Dragon overlords. So yeah, the Thu'um was literally taught to the Nords for war.
It wasn't until the Nords lost at Red Mountain to the Dunmer, did Jurgen Windcaller create the pacifistic "Way of the Voice". This aligned with Paarthurnax's own attempts to control his draconic nature to dominate.
Ulrich is also in trouble because he studied the way of the voice to develop his thum. And the grey beards also very much dislike you using it to fight, almost refusing to help you to stop alduin when they realize you intend to use it as a weapon instead of joining their creed
Makes perfect sense lore-wise!!
The thu'um is the language of the dragon, And when the greybeards learn a shout they have to meditate for years before even learning a singular word, But the DB isn't held by that philosophy due to them being a dragon trapped within a mortal vessel so its kinda like saying your not allowed to be the DB even though your literally the DB
it’s just mind blowing that a game someone made has a history & lore this deep 😅 guarantee you there are countless mfs who know more Skyrim history than IRL history
I like to imagine my dragonborn doesn't care anyways. He will shout some mf off a mountain if someone told him he can't do that
Imagine how different Tamriel would be if every person could use and learn the Voice like the Dragonborn
High elves would get bent
I mean… it seems to be a Nord only thing. Not elf or the other two.
Tamriel would be the loudest place in the three place ( Oblivion, Aetherius and Mundus)
I always thought the Voice was just another form of Tonal Magic.
man imagine your in ancient skyrim and you drop a sweetroll on some dudes new shoes and he shouts you into the ground 😂
Ulfric’s thuum wouldn’t have been so terrible in the first place if he wasn’t seen in the eyes of the citizens of Skyrim as a homicidal suicidal fool.
Which he isn't.
@@TheStraightestWhitest just a REALLY bad diplomat and strategist lmao
Well I mean one guy is fighting a petty civil war the other one was designed to fight against the literal DESTROYER OF WORLDS
Don't Let Them Silence You!
The actual answer is “who’s going to stop me”
I wonder how that conversation went down between akotosh and Kynreth. Yo i need that magic voice thing to be given to my champion so he can kill my disobedient son, throw some bands my way Kyne.
technically, it's akatosh's gift first given all his children naturally possess thu'um, so it's likely the other way around.
Also, Ulfric Stormcloak did the Skyrim equivalent of challenging someone to a fist fight and dropped a nuke on their head when they came to meet his challenge. So Ulfric was misusing The Voice in multiple ways.
Im about 99% sure its never stated their are any rules to duel other than its a one vs one. So yes using the voice is probably perfectly fine, same as if the high king pulled a crossbow or some nonsense.
@damackabet.4611 you're missing the point. It was disrespectful and dishonorable regardless and a complete misuse of The Voice. Also, comparing pulling out a crossbow to pulling out a nuclear warhead is a pretty weak argument. The descriptions of what happened heavily imply that Ulfric used Unrelenting Force, a few guards actually thinking Ulfric Shouted him into dust, meaning that he pulled it out immediately. You can't excuse how dirty Ulfric played against the High King.
Furthermore, the way the Greybeard who actually talks puts it, Ulfric came to them, learned how to produce a Thu'um, and then immediately went and blasted the High King.
Rules or no rules, what Ulfric did is scummy and an abuse of the power he gained.
The Dragonborn does what the fook he wants!
Bro is literally built different. He can do what he wants
What? I thought it was because ulfric challenged the dead high king to fair and honest combat and using the thuum against a non-voice user is bringing a gun to a knife fight.
Kinda but not really. That is an aspect most people lean into, but it's also a cultural thing to the nords of the region
@@infinitybreak4459 oh, ok.
Who cares ?
Nords were gifted the Thu'Um for war
Mastering the Thu'Um is a proof of power and tradition
Which Torygg didn't have
It's like saying "This Muay Thaï guy is a pussy because he used a Low Kick against an Hooligan in a Street Fight"
Also, Thu'Um isn't magic
@@OuhHey the thu'um isn't magic but it's still not fair and honest in a fair and honest combat trial. Saying "who cares, it's made for war" is literally like bringing a gun to knife fight or if you still want to go with the combat sports analogy it's like bringing a weapon into the octagon. Who cares? Martial arts were made for war just like weapons, right? Sure they both served the same purpose but they're very different and have different rule sets when it comes to sanctioned things. That's why no one brings weapons to the octagon and half of Skyrim said ulfric was a dirty bitch.
@@Ultimate_Gamer_3000
Stupid argument :
*Using the Thu'Um in Fight AND in Duels was a part of Nordic Tradition for ages*
And it was way before "The Way of the Voice" was even invented
Not by Kyne btw, but by a random Warchief named Jurgen Windcaller that interpreted the nordic defeat on the Red Moutain as a sign the Goddess was displeased with him
And even at the time, his "Ideology" wasn't popular, and wasn't the majority
It just happen than the last people that learns the Voice are people that believe in this ideology
But the Dragonborn, or Ulfric, is by no means obligated to the Greybeards or their Ideology
The analogy with a gun is also stupid :
- Torygg could have learnt the Thu'Um, like anyone can learn how to land a low kick or how to grapple
- But he didn't, like some people IRL don't
- And he died for that, like some people IRL get their ass whooped in fight for that
On the other hand, Ulfric did
And he won
Proving by this fact that :
- He was a better fighter than Torygg
- He was more dedicated to the Old Nordic Tradition, and to gaining Power, than Torygg
Ulfric had a competence, not a tool nor an object that almost anyone can use after 10 minutes of drills
Ulfric had a capability, something that he had to work for years to achieve in a certain level of mastery
And this thing is the Thu'Um, and is much more comparable to any IRL Martial Art than a Gun
It is also Peak Tradition in the Nordic Skyrim
It is both Tradition and Dedication
And something I don't get
Is why people are stuoid, or like to act stupid, when we discuss about this subject :
As everyone in the game says, Ulfric was a better fighter than Torygg and he dominated the fight even before using the Thu'Um
So let met ask you a question :
- *If Ulfric didn't need the Thu'Um to win the duel, why has he used it ?*
I'll give you the anwser :
- *It was Political. To prove what I explained above, about Tradition, Dedication, and Dedication to Tradition, to the Old Nordic Ways*
Video on how the thalmor rised to power?
Not a bad idea! Its an interesting and frustrating story lol
Basically he got that thum premium
Akatosh a real one for that
The thing is, normal Nords (or any other race) need extreme training to properly master a single Thu'um. That's an unfair advantage over other nords. And (most) Nords fight honorably in equal fights. That's why the Greybeards teach everyone to use the Thu'um only in worship to priotect it's purity and reputation. And normally, we don't value what we can do easily despite it's importance (like breathing) so we don't care about discipline about the Thu'um. We use it like it's just another magic stuff. If you ask me, i rarely use Thu'um in combat. I mostly use Whirlwind sprint, Clear skies and Dragonrend. Mostly because the enemies are like noodles to me now. And we don't have any powerful shout at lower levels
Before Skyrim (the game) only nords could shout, and it was a form of magic accepted as a weapon. The devs retcon the nords lore and in ES5 they were nothing more then a bunch of weak ass imperialized dudes, nothing nordic about them.
@@Gabriel-wn6oc i kinda low key feel Nords are nerfed too. Like in Morrowind they have complete immunity to frost and 50% to lightning. I almost believed that traps in Solstheim are bugged because they didn't do anything to me. Now in ES5 Nords are basically drunk brutes at best. The Nords earlier could shout (maybe something to do with Atmoran devolution) the change can also be felt with The Companions who were founded when Nords were Atmorans, and Atmorans respected magic as well (pointed out by Tsun) and now they thrash you for using ut (pointed out by Vilkas)
@@Gabriel-wn6oc The Pocket Guide to the Empire (First Edition) already stated that the Voice was no longer used as a weapon, and that one was published with the release of TESA: Redguard.
I never felt that people hated Ulfric for using the Thuum in general, even when it comes to fighting. I think the fact that he used it to kill his king who was a literal teenager was not only unfair but cowardly after asking for a duel. It's like showing up with a gun to a knife fight and then laughing it off.
Instead of bringing a gun to a knife fight I would say that it's more like bringing a leclerc MBT armed with an autoloading GIAT CN120-26/52 120mm tank gun, and with modular composite armor to a knife fight
@@the_hecaton Ulfric said SIKE before he pulled the trigger 😂
First of all the king was not a teenager, he was in his 20s. Secondly as far as im aware we dont know the rules magic/thuum/crossbows anything could be used as long as it was one vs one as far as we are aware.
The main reason some demonize it in game is because its their guy who lost, had the high king won by using the thuum everyone on his side would have cheered. Their only upset because their guy lost.
Lore friendly dragonborn is a force of nature
Akatosh be like "here bro! Go wilding out there show everyone what's up with the power of dragons!!! Also deal with this Alduin guy if you have time."
I love when Harkon looks at the Dovahkiin/Dragonborn and said “So I that this dragon has fangs.”
My head cannnon is always "what are you gonna do about it"
The greybeards when you steal their bread : Ice Form shout
i love that skyrim is one of the few games in which you quite literally are a god. i never quick save bc i know i’m going to run through everyone lol
This is also why the dragons can use their voice for how they see fit
“why is he allowed to use it?” Bro who gonna stop him😂😂
I just assumed it was a “who’s gonna stop him? Situation
That's funny, Greybeards have no problem bouncing me around the mountain.
Yeah, because Akatosh gave him his gift…
He can do what tf he wants. 😂
"as they see fit"
I just thought of what paarthunaax said: 'to a dragon a battle and a debate are one and the same'
Dragonborn in full dragon plate: who’s going to stop me from using it anyway?
Tldr: the dragonborn is a priviledged baddass and you dont argue with him
I love that this game is still alive and prospering to this day ❤
He's the Shezarrine, who's gonna stop him?
I love how the The Elder Skrolls is also litarally apart of the story majorly because its like an infinite knowledge which allows any person to see everything they couldve been but this also makes them blind of some sort which makes so much sense and also gives lore to every players playthrough and allows anything that couldve been be anything at once.
I could feel that fus ro dah even though I can't hear it
You can come across dialogue with Aerngir, where he lets you know of the information from your video. Super useful to know because it's not repeated anywhere in the game, and is such a small detail players can easily forget. It's literally a few sentences of dialogue, and that's it.
* random guard approaches * “ I’m going to need you to quit doing that, the shouting or whatever it is “
Simply a difference of perspective
"Dad said it was okay, Mom"
"So why is the last dragonborn different?"
Main character powers
Why did I get so excited that I already knew this? 😂
Bro, I keep seeing stuff like this and it’s making me want to play Skyrim for the seventh time😂😂
"Who gon stop me, huh?"
The Dragonborn is a mortal with the soul of a Dragon.
The Dagon borns like "it's literally my birthright and a gift from dragons. I will not be lectured by simple humans"
Let's face it; who the hell is going to tell him not to?
I wanna point out you can find an old generals journal tracking the progress of his seige on a dragonpreist's barrow. And in it he says he requested reinforcements in the form of a voice user to break down their walls. And says that the young voice user successfully destroyed theur walls but took an arrow to the neck and died afterwards. Meaning that voice users were valubal assests in times of war, and certainly not universally Pacifists like the gray beards
I do believe that journal is either from the dragon wars. Where they were fighting ancient dragons hundreds of years prior to even the first elder scrolls game.
Or he was from Tiber Septims age (1st or 2nd age) where the use of the voice had a dramatic shift while he was emperor because he was the emperor and a voice user.
Everyone went back to peaceful again immediately after his death though.
Skyrim is in the 4th age.
@@SpectralKnightway, way back in the dragon war.
I definitely watched Ulfric use the thuum during the seige of solitude lol
"The voice is not to be used as a weapon"
Every dragon: :0
Oh whoa that's awesome. Love how much lore there is in this series. Probably couldn't ever know it all lol
He is definitely talking about cliff beats lol