Solid breakdown of a PRS load. Do a little digging into the velocity however. Most guys winning matches are shooting some 6mm BR variant at 2750 - 2850. Theres a lot of benefit to going slower, but mostly has to do with spotting your impacts. Fast bullets dont give you enough time to recover and watch what happens down range. Slower loads also change the recoil impulse.
Slow it down 2800 and watch it to the target. Make your correction. If you can’t see your hits and misses then your guessing on what the correction will be. Check out the Rifle Kraft drills and work on wind call. Doesn’t matter if you have a 1/2moa rifle from the bench if your Kraft number is 3moa.
Your thought process is very similar to mine, and it’s also nice to see more people utilizing the single base vhitavouri powders. I shoot 6X 47 Lapua with N150 and 109gr LRHT
First off, you have to define the desired accuracy. I would say most guys are happy with a 0,5 MOA for a 3-shot group at 100m. The targets are simply bigger and hit or miss imposes less stringent requirements on the load itself. On the other hand, there are many more factors in PRS causing mistakes than in F-class- positioning, time limit, and many more. So, I would say you should be at least as precise in your load development as for F-class (margin of error issue). But you have to jump a lot.
I would suggest that recoil or anticipated recoil is a top 5 reason for missing targets or game. Shooting less recoiling rounds will lesson poor trigger pulls. Also allowing the shooter to stay in the scope marking misses, left, right, up or down. Allowing for adjusted follow-up shots. The 6.5 CM, 6 CM or 6 ARC are excellent rounds for PRS and if reloaded for less recoil, not just accuracy they become even better choices. Say your rifle shoots 6.5CM 143 g with IMR 4350 42.5 g at 2650fps. 1/2 minute groups. That's awesome but if I lower the bullet weight, charge weight and was able to maintain 1 moa with much less recoil. Well, to me that's a better choice for PRS because I'm able to shoot without shot/recoil anticipation and I'm able to mark my own misses by staying in the scope during shot recoil with a rifle that weighs less than 20 pounds. As a new follower, love your channel. have a great day.
Trend is heading to slower speeds... helps with follow through. 1/3 MOA is ideal (although it is easy enough to tune for tighter). My loading is very similar to F class, just allowing for a bit more headspace, bullet jump and far lower chamber pressures. Welcome to the game. Jumped to PRS when I stopped coming down to Rattlesnake.
Spot on. My load went from 2950 to 2750 and it’s so much easier to spot shots. Rifle is a 1/3 moa rifle - meaning that’s the worst grouping on a bad day. If I shot 3-5 5 shot groups it ranges from .2-.36 MOA. Headspace is -.001 from NoGo and is throated for a .06 jump and it wasn’t terribly difficult to get to a good load.
Not a PRS guy but when it was harder to get Varget than now (hard to believe I know) I used RL-15 for F-Class with my Dasher at 100 yards I was able to get it to shoot in the 0s. Hell, I even stooped so low as to running IMR4320 (now discontinued) basically same speed as varget but dirty as hell and had great success with it too. A person can get pretty resourceful when the powder situation is tough. As a matter of fact I have shot a few 200/19s with a BRA using Varget and RL-15 at 300 yards and some 200s with pretty decent X counts at 600 with RL15 too. One of my customers recently shot a 200/25X at 300 with a BR running around 2760 fps he hit a hell of a node there and has been tearing it up with that rifle. A Dasher is easy to load for and a person should be shooting in the .200s right off the bat with 108 bergers and 32.4 gr. of Varget and CCI450s or Fed 205M if you can find them and I personally run 7.5 Twist barrels I think spinning that bullet up a little tighter helps at longer ranges. I take my midrange F-Class barrels in 6x47 Lapua when the X-count starts falling off and cut the breech back to 28" and recut the crown and rechamber them to a BR or BRA or Dasher and use them for 300 yard matches or contour them down for a Tactical or PRS or for whacking plates etc.. Barrels ain't cheap so use them up.
N140 in the BR-case based cartridge is always a great choise. But 2820-2900 is the velocity window most of the shooters on this side of the pond end up with. In straight BR and BRA 30gr jumping the 105 Hybrids around 60 thou is a great load that has performed excellent in many rifels. For the Dasher 31-31.5 is a sweetspot
I came here to comment on your speed requirement but I see several have already provided that wisdom. I run a 6gt with 109 hybrid's or 110 Atips and depending on which barrel, bullet and powder is used I want to be in the 2770-2870 range.
In my experience and asking other PRS shooters. The dasher running at around 2850 or even less it the way to go. Less stress on everything. Very little recoil for spotting hits and misses and very minimal deficiencies in wind hold over a hotter load
So, gonna stop you right there with the velocity. 99% of folks running a dasher are running their velocity around 2800-2850. 3000 is way too fast in a dasher with most folks running a 26” barrel. 3000 FPS with that barrel length is over pressure. I’ve only run that fast of velocity once, but I had no choice for that match due to a certain circumstance I couldn’t fix. Using a lower pressure load also helps the load be safe in wet matches. Lastly, RL 15.5 or H4350 works well with the dasher.
@@winninginthewind I shot king of coal canyon in Raton last weekend with a dasher going at 3000 FPS. I had to swap to a newly chambered barrel because my old barrel died on me during sight in day. Old barrel was going at 2900 FPS and the new barrel was…. Going 100 FPS faster. I had to just go with it though and pray it didn’t rain. Luckily things went well and I managed 5th and only 5 points behind the top shooter. Just redid my load for this new barrel and I’m now back down to 2862 FPS with Berger 109s and RL 15.5.
Came here to basically repeat and confirm a few things the other commenters are saying: Velocity goal is a bit high... back-off a little bit... Since you're spotting your own shots, especially out past 400 yards, you might appreciate the extra 1/4 second of flight-time to see that splash/ dust puff. It really does make a difference while you recover sight-picture from the recoil of the shot. And, accuracy is still more important than power, and the wind isn't going to gain that much on you over 100-150 FPS. Your bullets are already slippery as heck. And; A slightly safer load that you KNOW will extract easily every time regardless of temp, dust, water, etc is better in the long run. Might also give you a few more matches of barrel life too, or spend those extra rounds in a tad more load development. Also...My OCD won't let me shoot a load that doesn't make me believe I'm wringing the best accuracy possible with available components, equipment and time. While I appreciate your willingness to accept 1/2 MOA as "practical", you can eliminate a questionable variable by going smaller. Every time you miss... you're going to wonder "was that the load, or me?" Go for 1/3. If the load ends-up grouping smaller, into the 1/4 MOA range, so much the better. Also also: Get a barricade stop bolted to the bottom of your rifle ahead of the magazine. Nothing worse than being excited, going fast, and stuffing your rifle into a shoot-through and knocking that mag loose...or messing up the alignment in the well.
Time of flight at 700yd for a 109 at 3000fps = 0.91 sec. TOF @ 700yd, 109 @ 2850 = 0.86 sec. 0.05 sec difference, not 1/4 sec. Muzzle energy at 2850 is 10% less than at 3000. If Keith gave me 10% less Purina I don't think I would notice.
The time for a human to blink is generally stated as about 0.100 sec. So gaining an extra half eye blink's time really helps spot shots at 700 yd? And it is less at shorter ranges by the way. I'm just a dog but this doesn't add up for me.
@@Keithapostrophes_Dog Yup. I knew it. The one point I forward from another commenter that I just threw in there, and that's the one everyone takes issue with. I don't suppose any of my other Actual personal observations were worthy of notice, just the one I foolishly added . It's fine. You'll find that PRS is a LOT harder on a mature person's body then F-class. I'd invest in some knee-pads, and a bunch of Tylenol. and a small cart or wagon to haul your stuff around in.
@@Keithapostrophes_Dog If you hit, Steel will ring and leave a mark. If you miss, you'll hit dirt which might give you a splash of dust or debris to at least see where it went. It's not my tip, but I'll still try to defend it since I used it. All of these sports are hitting steel that doesn't need to be knocked-down, or cutting paper. Yes, a hotter load will help a bit with wind, but at the expense and labor of using up and replacing a barrel sooner, but you're not worrying about terminal energy here. If you found 2 good nodes, and they're 150fps apart... which do you play ?
Funny. You both failed the test. I switched the TOF at 2850 and 3000. It obviously takes longer to get there at 2850. Left myself wide open for a good beat-down. Most of these calculations require no more than 8th grade algebra. Make the effort. There are just too many factoids thrown about that are easy to take apart. Most of us wouldn't buy a stock on a tip from our barber but many will bet the farm on a shooting tip.
Anheuser-Busch product no doubt. In case you are new to following WITW, Keith significantly reduced his CZcams posts around the first of the year due to unproductive chatter like yours. Do those of us that like to follow his posts a favor and find another place for your sarchasm.
I load dasher with N140. With a 107SMK and 32gr powder I get 2830fps out of a 28” barrel. I did almost no load development. Shoots bugholes (0.3-0.4moa on repeated, fast fired groups). 0.5 moa at 1000yds on the few groups Ive shot at that distance. Dasher rocks- I think your load dev will likely be short. You can almost pick at random and it’ll shoot.
....at 4:14 - 4:17 - your trigger finger became, (for lack of a better term), a booger-flicker, so is that something you have to work on, which seems so important in positional, or, is that unimportant to shooting for you?
Give two equally skilled individuals different rifles. One that shoots 3/4 and one that shoots 1/2 and the one with the 1/2 moa gun will come out on top most of the time. Simply because it gives you a larger margin for error in wind reading and distance from center of plate. Think about it this way. If you have a 10" target at 500 yards and through wind call and/or point of aim error your expected point of impact when the trigger is pulled is 7" from center. Every shot with the 1/2 MOA gun will still be on plate where a good portion of the 3/4 MOA gun's shots will miss. It's always better to have a more accurate gun if you can.
@M M for sure a .25 gun would be better but the targets are big enough that a 2mil at 600m is pretty easy to hit with even a 1inch at 100m rifle if you lean into the wind just a touch
You sir have not done your homework. You offer no justification or supporting evidence for your statement. You seem to be trying to promote some business you have.
@kieth are you replying to me? I think this fella has moved on from his thinking that a moa gun would suffice! I shoot prs and trust me when I say his gun needs to be as precise as he can get it. Also every other comment on the speed he needs to spot shots is also correct If I have misunderstood what he is implying I apologize
Solid breakdown of a PRS load. Do a little digging into the velocity however. Most guys winning matches are shooting some 6mm BR variant at 2750 - 2850. Theres a lot of benefit to going slower, but mostly has to do with spotting your impacts. Fast bullets dont give you enough time to recover and watch what happens down range. Slower loads also change the recoil impulse.
Slow it down 2800 and watch it to the target. Make your correction. If you can’t see your hits and misses then your guessing on what the correction will be. Check out the Rifle Kraft drills and work on wind call. Doesn’t matter if you have a 1/2moa rifle from the bench if your Kraft number is 3moa.
Your thought process is very similar to mine, and it’s also nice to see more people utilizing the single base vhitavouri powders. I shoot 6X 47 Lapua with N150 and 109gr LRHT
First off, you have to define the desired accuracy. I would say most guys are happy with a 0,5 MOA for a 3-shot group at 100m. The targets are simply bigger and hit or miss imposes less stringent requirements on the load itself. On the other hand, there are many more factors in PRS causing mistakes than in F-class- positioning, time limit, and many more. So, I would say you should be at least as precise in your load development as for F-class (margin of error issue). But you have to jump a lot.
I would suggest that recoil or anticipated recoil is a top 5 reason for missing targets or game. Shooting less recoiling rounds will lesson poor trigger pulls. Also allowing the shooter to stay in the scope marking misses, left, right, up or down. Allowing for adjusted follow-up shots. The 6.5 CM, 6 CM or 6 ARC are excellent rounds for PRS and if reloaded for less recoil, not just accuracy they become even better choices. Say your rifle shoots 6.5CM 143 g with IMR 4350 42.5 g at 2650fps. 1/2 minute groups. That's awesome but if I lower the bullet weight, charge weight and was able to maintain 1 moa with much less recoil. Well, to me that's a better choice for PRS because I'm able to shoot without shot/recoil anticipation and I'm able to mark my own misses by staying in the scope during shot recoil with a rifle that weighs less than 20 pounds. As a new follower, love your channel. have a great day.
Trend is heading to slower speeds... helps with follow through. 1/3 MOA is ideal (although it is easy enough to tune for tighter). My loading is very similar to F class, just allowing for a bit more headspace, bullet jump and far lower chamber pressures. Welcome to the game. Jumped to PRS when I stopped coming down to Rattlesnake.
Spot on. My load went from 2950 to 2750 and it’s so much easier to spot shots. Rifle is a 1/3 moa rifle - meaning that’s the worst grouping on a bad day. If I shot 3-5 5 shot groups it ranges from .2-.36 MOA. Headspace is -.001 from NoGo and is throated for a .06 jump and it wasn’t terribly difficult to get to a good load.
Not a PRS guy but when it was harder to get Varget than now (hard to believe I know) I used RL-15 for F-Class with my Dasher at 100 yards I was able to get it to shoot in the 0s. Hell, I even stooped so low as to running IMR4320 (now discontinued) basically same speed as varget but dirty as hell and had great success with it too. A person can get pretty resourceful when the powder situation is tough. As a matter of fact I have shot a few 200/19s with a BRA using Varget and RL-15 at 300 yards and some 200s with pretty decent X counts at 600 with RL15 too. One of my customers recently shot a 200/25X at 300 with a BR running around 2760 fps he hit a hell of a node there and has been tearing it up with that rifle. A Dasher is easy to load for and a person should be shooting in the .200s right off the bat with 108 bergers and 32.4 gr. of Varget and CCI450s or Fed 205M if you can find them and I personally run 7.5 Twist barrels I think spinning that bullet up a little tighter helps at longer ranges. I take my midrange F-Class barrels in 6x47 Lapua when the X-count starts falling off and cut the breech back to 28" and recut the crown and rechamber them to a BR or BRA or Dasher and use them for 300 yard matches or contour them down for a Tactical or PRS or for whacking plates etc.. Barrels ain't cheap so use them up.
N140 in the BR-case based cartridge is always a great choise. But 2820-2900 is the velocity window most of the shooters on this side of the pond end up with.
In straight BR and BRA 30gr jumping the 105 Hybrids around 60 thou is a great load that has performed excellent in many rifels.
For the Dasher 31-31.5 is a sweetspot
I came here to comment on your speed requirement but I see several have already provided that wisdom. I run a 6gt with 109 hybrid's or 110 Atips and depending on which barrel, bullet and powder is used I want to be in the 2770-2870 range.
Great video! Can’t wait for the next
Looking forward to the new content.
Very good point!
.5 MOA or less and make good wind calls and send it. A lot of guys start at .50-.60 jump and never change their load. Especially with the 105 hybrid.
In my experience and asking other PRS shooters. The dasher running at around 2850 or even less it the way to go.
Less stress on everything. Very little recoil for spotting hits and misses and very minimal deficiencies in wind hold over a hotter load
So, gonna stop you right there with the velocity. 99% of folks running a dasher are running their velocity around 2800-2850. 3000 is way too fast in a dasher with most folks running a 26” barrel. 3000 FPS with that barrel length is over pressure. I’ve only run that fast of velocity once, but I had no choice for that match due to a certain circumstance I couldn’t fix.
Using a lower pressure load also helps the load be safe in wet matches.
Lastly, RL 15.5 or H4350 works well with the dasher.
I agree 3000+ is too hot, especially in Alpha brass. The third video might be entertaining for you. Stay tuned!
@@winninginthewind I shot king of coal canyon in Raton last weekend with a dasher going at 3000 FPS. I had to swap to a newly chambered barrel because my old barrel died on me during sight in day. Old barrel was going at 2900 FPS and the new barrel was…. Going 100 FPS faster. I had to just go with it though and pray it didn’t rain. Luckily things went well and I managed 5th and only 5 points behind the top shooter. Just redid my load for this new barrel and I’m now back down to 2862 FPS with Berger 109s and RL 15.5.
Came here to basically repeat and confirm a few things the other commenters are saying:
Velocity goal is a bit high... back-off a little bit... Since you're spotting your own shots, especially out past 400 yards, you might appreciate the extra 1/4 second of flight-time to see that splash/ dust puff. It really does make a difference while you recover sight-picture from the recoil of the shot. And, accuracy is still more important than power, and the wind isn't going to gain that much on you over 100-150 FPS. Your bullets are already slippery as heck. And; A slightly safer load that you KNOW will extract easily every time regardless of temp, dust, water, etc is better in the long run. Might also give you a few more matches of barrel life too, or spend those extra rounds in a tad more load development.
Also...My OCD won't let me shoot a load that doesn't make me believe I'm wringing the best accuracy possible with available components, equipment and time. While I appreciate your willingness to accept 1/2 MOA as "practical", you can eliminate a questionable variable by going smaller. Every time you miss... you're going to wonder "was that the load, or me?"
Go for 1/3. If the load ends-up grouping smaller, into the 1/4 MOA range, so much the better.
Also also: Get a barricade stop bolted to the bottom of your rifle ahead of the magazine. Nothing worse than being excited, going fast, and stuffing your rifle into a shoot-through and knocking that mag loose...or messing up the alignment in the well.
Time of flight at 700yd for a 109 at 3000fps = 0.91 sec. TOF @ 700yd, 109 @ 2850 = 0.86 sec. 0.05 sec difference, not 1/4 sec. Muzzle energy at 2850 is 10% less than at 3000. If Keith gave me 10% less Purina I don't think I would notice.
The time for a human to blink is generally stated as about 0.100 sec. So gaining an extra half eye blink's time really helps spot shots at 700 yd? And it is less at shorter ranges by the way. I'm just a dog but this doesn't add up for me.
@@Keithapostrophes_Dog Yup. I knew it. The one point I forward from another commenter that I just threw in there, and that's the one everyone takes issue with. I don't suppose any of my other Actual personal observations were worthy of notice, just the one I foolishly added .
It's fine. You'll find that PRS is a LOT harder on a mature person's body then F-class. I'd invest in some knee-pads, and a bunch of Tylenol. and a small cart or wagon to haul your stuff around in.
@@Keithapostrophes_Dog If you hit, Steel will ring and leave a mark. If you miss, you'll hit dirt which might give you a splash of dust or debris to at least see where it went. It's not my tip, but I'll still try to defend it since I used it. All of these sports are hitting steel that doesn't need to be knocked-down, or cutting paper. Yes, a hotter load will help a bit with wind, but at the expense and labor of using up and replacing a barrel sooner, but you're not worrying about terminal energy here. If you found 2 good nodes, and they're 150fps apart... which do you play ?
Funny. You both failed the test. I switched the TOF at 2850 and 3000. It obviously takes longer to get there at 2850. Left myself wide open for a good beat-down. Most of these calculations require no more than 8th grade algebra. Make the effort. There are just too many factoids thrown about that are easy to take apart. Most of us wouldn't buy a stock on a tip from our barber but many will bet the farm on a shooting tip.
I can't wait for this. Hold my beer
Anheuser-Busch product no doubt. In case you are new to following WITW, Keith significantly reduced his CZcams posts around the first of the year due to unproductive chatter like yours. Do those of us that like to follow his posts a favor and find another place for your sarchasm.
I load dasher with N140. With a 107SMK and 32gr powder I get 2830fps out of a 28” barrel. I did almost no load development. Shoots bugholes (0.3-0.4moa on repeated, fast fired groups). 0.5 moa at 1000yds on the few groups Ive shot at that distance.
Dasher rocks- I think your load dev will likely be short. You can almost pick at random and it’ll shoot.
Yikes! That charge netted me north of 2900 in my barrel with 105's and right at 2900 with 109's.
@@winninginthewind bit of a slow barrel I suppose. Shoots well though!
....at 4:14 - 4:17 - your trigger finger became, (for lack of a better term), a booger-flicker, so is that something you have to work on, which seems so important in positional, or, is that unimportant to shooting for you?
I don't know yet. Fixing stuff as I go.
What he was trying to say, is that your follow through is non existent.
I figured that follow through would still be a thing in F-class...
What is your thoughts on ARCA? Have you noticed any variation in accuracy when using ARCA?
ARCA mounts are solid for me. Far better than sling-stud mounts for bipods.
Prs doesnt require anything better than 3/4 moa at best.
Doesn't leave you much room for error on a KYL rack
Give two equally skilled individuals different rifles. One that shoots 3/4 and one that shoots 1/2 and the one with the 1/2 moa gun will come out on top most of the time. Simply because it gives you a larger margin for error in wind reading and distance from center of plate. Think about it this way. If you have a 10" target at 500 yards and through wind call and/or point of aim error your expected point of impact when the trigger is pulled is 7" from center. Every shot with the 1/2 MOA gun will still be on plate where a good portion of the 3/4 MOA gun's shots will miss. It's always better to have a more accurate gun if you can.
@M M for sure a .25 gun would be better but the targets are big enough that a 2mil at 600m is pretty easy to hit with even a 1inch at 100m rifle if you lean into the wind just a touch
@vgl217 my rifle shoots .25 inch groups all day and my friends rifle is a 3/4moa gun and we are still pretty close on a kyl
Buddy your gonna need everything you can get . 😂
This guy will be placing at events in the near future.
You sir have not done your homework. You offer no justification or supporting evidence for your statement. You seem to be trying to promote some business you have.
@kieth are you replying to me? I think this fella has moved on from his thinking that a moa gun would suffice! I shoot prs and trust me when I say his gun needs to be as precise as he can get it. Also every other comment on the speed he needs to spot shots is also correct
If I have misunderstood what he is implying I apologize