Recently published in PV magazine: In a new paper, researchers from the University of Sheffield, Imperial College London, and the University of St Andrews in the United Kingdom have conducted a detailed meta-analysis of 60 papers to investigate the most influential battery parameters and the probable off-gas characteristics to determine what kind of battery would be least hazardous. They have found that while NMC batteries release more gas than LFP, but that LFP batteries are significantly more toxic than NMC ones in absolute terms.
Thanks for the summary/history of the Powerwall. I have 2 x Powerwall 2's. I see the advantage of not needing the 3rd party products and the quicker install time, but the main thing I'm waiting for before adding more is more kwh. 13.5 kwh is just not enough for most people's needs and they are so expensive that adding multiple powerwalls doesn't make much financial sense for most. If you run your a/c or heat pump for even a few hours overnight, it will drain your battery very quickly. More KWH and cheaper price is what we need!
Termites use passive cooling for their dwellings because they have to, and we use AC because we can. And because our economic appraisal is so limited in scope and in duration, it seems to support it. But you don't have to step back very far from the problem to take in the fact that someone somewhere is cutting down trees or burning fossil fuels to make the electricity to power your AC, and that this and the CO2 released to build the machines to mine and refine the lithium AND the even more CO2 to actually mine and transport it and to make the batteries and panels you want...is only increasing the already high temperatures....which in turn will make you want more AC. Have we thought this through?
EG-4 PowerPro 14.3KW and 18Kpv inverter Less then $10k for both fully certified even in California. With two EG4 18Kpv inverters and 6 PowerPro wall batteries you can have 85.5KW of capacity. Total cost $34172 directly from Signature solar.
Does the Tesla Powerwall 3 limit the types of electric input that is possible and if so is there a way around the constraint. What I would like is for the battery to manage providing power to my home and accept electricity from many sources, ideally, but perhaps not required simultaneously. - grid input - solar input from roof top solar and other solar - wind - hydro electric - gas generators Thanks for the video
I have a 4kw solar only with sunsun but I want to upgrade more panels and battery backup what would you recommend Tesla solar/1-2 batteries or sunrun? Family of 4 plus 1 EV coming this summer in CA.
Where did you get this information? Because I've tried to get confirmation of this from Tesla regarding dual versions of PW3 as well as it being expandable and they're telling me that isn't true.
A very friendly sales rep in Vegas during 2023 SPI event. But remember that these scalability features will be available overtime on a OTA software update
Hello I am in the process of having a new system installed. The installer claims, and is pushing, that the Powerwall 2 with micro inverters on the panels is a more efficient system than the Powerwall 3 with the inverter in the battery unit. What do you think about this claim? Is the battery chemistry safer in the Powerwall 3 in your opinion? Thank You for any advice!
Powerwall3 is vapour at the moment, so if you're mid-installation, it's an irrelevance. As for whether your installer's claims are correct or not, many factors might play into it, making an universal answer impossible. Ask him to explain in detail WHY he says this: if he talks about long DC cable runs it would be worth listening to. You could look at the datasheets for the conversion efficiency figures. But if he blusters, then maybe he just wants you to hand over some cash today rather than to prevaricate until the day when the Powerwall3 is actually available to base some realistic plans on.
Yes, it would be efficient. It would also be expensive. The assumed configuration is that the powerwall 3 would be similar to 3x 5kw inverters. It would be difficult to predict how the strings are run before guidance and manuals come out, but the usual approach to inverter strings of panels, is that they are tied together as a group, or grid. Enphase is useful when your roof does not have the standard rectangular shape, and the panels can’t be put into a grid layout. Each traditional string of panels is efficient when they act as a cohort. But if one panel gets shaded, the performance drops by 1/6 to 1/2 for all panels. Partial shading drops the wattage and power of the whole group of panels. This is a traditional flaw, but also an efficiency. Each MPPT handles the group or string of panels separately. So if you had a 5x5 grid of panels, it’s assumed that you would have 2 strings of different lengths. 12 + 13 or 10+ 15 sic. Because there’s 6 strings possible, you could have 5 strings of 5, and the group would be run horizontally ie because the sunrise to midday angles would make the bottom row, perform better earlier in the morning, and worse in the evening. Or vice versa depending on the side of the house. Smaller strings make shading loss less noticeable, optimisers can boost all panels on the same string. Microinverters, you can face them upside down and it won’t affect the overall solar. It would be expensive though as instead of one box on the wall that handles the conversion, you need 20 small inverters on standard AC home wiring (sold by Enphase, with exclusive connectors) The overall advantage of Enphase is you can spend more. And you get more. That’s the main advantage. If you want to upgrade, you don’t need a second $4k inverter and planning, you can just add a combiner box, run the new panels on a chimney, or somewhere stupid, and you’ve added 4kw. Or, in a better example, a carport or shed tied to the house circuit, where you also have a EV charger. They will not be on the same wiring, but they can share the same conduit and infrastructure, where a normal Solar install requires a nearby inverter and separate grid safety/isolation/wiring and other equipment.
I use around 50 kWh a day. I need at least four of these to back everything up for one day. Of course, in a total city or statewide blackout, I would cut consumption down to 1 kWh for just medical equipment. But that would only give me an extra day for a total of two days of backup power. That's enough time for me to get enough gas or propane for my secondary backup generator.
I also use around 40 to 50 kWh per day on South Florida. But my battery is only 25kwh. I received a notification when running off grid so I can shut down the water pump, rise temperature on thermostat, turn off any phantom load and move the consumption to the daytime when the solar PV is working
Can Powerwall 3 be installed with old solar panels. I heard that you can only install a Powerwall 3 with new Tesla solar panels. Have I heard correct information or not? I don't know. Well done for spotting that Powerwall 3 is LFP technology. I have watched another video where they did not spot it. I believe it is very difficult for LFP batteries to explode or have a fire. They are much safer. Also, they last twice as long as NCA or NMC technology. However, they are a little bigger and heavier. LFP batteries are definately the way to go.
It may require a new string to connect the panels, since the new inverter has a wildly unknown capacity for panels. Restringing is not a huge expense, but it can expose faults and damage that was ignored. Judging purely from the fact it has 6x MPPTs, the assumption is that the solar inverter capacity is 11.5kw shared across a maximum of 15kw of panels given oversizing of 133%. This also creates an odd situation where most inverters only have 2, or occasionally 3 MPPTs capable of half the load capacity. If they literally put 3x 5kw solar inverters circuitry inside the PW3, then it creates a strange situation where you have 2.5kw of panels per string, and ~1875w per string. This can be a good thing, but it also reduces the potential capacity if your roof isn’t symmetrical or you need a small string facing another angle, of 4-5 panels, alongside a string of 11 panels. This works okay if you have 400w panels from Value brands like Jinko, Trina, et al, but some of the new panels are over 500w, and require expensive mounting/ skirting for snow/ice which may not be compatible with the voltage range accepted. The new panels can be a nuisance for an inverter which doesn’t have an optimiser option to lower/boost the voltages. And that’s mostly because the small strings can only have 5-6 420w panels. Each MPPT will be quite small, ie that 15kw could be 11kw if you choose cheaper panels or expensive panels. If it is basically a retrofit 3x 5kw solar inverter, this could explain a lot of the load and DC conversion numbers. It also allows people to put extra panels in shaded areas or at angles which may receive less sun, such as Northwest, East/West or at a steep angle of 28-30’ which would be less efficient. By moving the weak or shaded panels to a smaller string, the cost can be offset by the potential minor gain. Normally, these awkward strings are ignored, because they tend to cost $1k to mount and wire 3-4 panels before even buying the panels, which won’t produce much power over the whole day, due to shading.
I don't think 13kWh would do a whole day... depends on the loads, and the weather, of course, but with our heat pump, in winter. that's probably a stretch.
Remember your solar powers the house directly during the day. I have a single Powerwall and my evening use never reaches 50% of capacity and is usually only around 30-40%. I have gas appliances and don't run AC off the solar and Powerwall.
So you don't have to purchase a grid-tie inverter anymore, but now you have to purchase PV Rapid Shutdown (RSD) using Tesla Mid-Circuit Interrupters. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
This product is going to lose serious market share as it is now DC coupled only. This severely limits installation flexibility and I guarantee you we will see a revamp of the Tesla power wall 2 when Tesla realizes how poor their sales are with respect to the power wall 3.
details or specs of PW3 hard to come by since it was made public. but then, Tesla PW don't stand a chance vs equipment from China that are much cheaper and flexible.
....and how many (of the as yet un-released) Powerwall3 have you installed, exactly? You fail to realise the foolishness of what comes out of your mouth....but you open it anyway.
FYI - The Average Home will needs at least 3-4 of these batteries. So still way expensive. Most people aren't willing to pay $30k plus just for batteries.
Pure BS! You really don't know what you're talking about. Plenty of people live just fine on one of these. I live in a large house and use about 8 kWh per day. I've done hundreds of installs where the customer was educated on energy efficiency first before investing in a massive battery system.
The purported and massive reduction of installation time is an absolute lie! It is completely shameful that they publish an installation time in the neighborhood of 20 minutes. That is pure marketing garbage!
LiIon instead of LiFePo (Huge degradation after 800 cycles for Powerwall and more risk to go on fire with degradation). No possibility to fix without Tesla. Only 13kwt/h for such a price.... When you literally can purchase 20kwt/h LiFePo battery with same 10 years warranty for same money. And LiFePo battery will be more fire safe...
So you don't have to purchase a grid-tie inverter anymore, but now you have to purchase PV Rapid Shutdown (RSD) using Tesla Mid-Circuit Interrupters. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Recently published in PV magazine:
In a new paper, researchers from the University of Sheffield, Imperial College London, and the University of St Andrews in the United Kingdom have conducted a detailed meta-analysis of 60 papers to investigate the most influential battery parameters and the probable off-gas characteristics to determine what kind of battery would be least hazardous.
They have found that while NMC batteries release more gas than LFP, but that LFP batteries are significantly more toxic than NMC ones in absolute terms.
Thanks for the summary/history of the Powerwall. I have 2 x Powerwall 2's. I see the advantage of not needing the 3rd party products and the quicker install time, but the main thing I'm waiting for before adding more is more kwh. 13.5 kwh is just not enough for most people's needs and they are so expensive that adding multiple powerwalls doesn't make much financial sense for most. If you run your a/c or heat pump for even a few hours overnight, it will drain your battery very quickly. More KWH and cheaper price is what we need!
Termites use passive cooling for their dwellings because they have to, and we use AC because we can. And because our economic appraisal is so limited in scope and in duration, it seems to support it. But you don't have to step back very far from the problem to take in the fact that someone somewhere is cutting down trees or burning fossil fuels to make the electricity to power your AC, and that this and the CO2 released to build the machines to mine and refine the lithium AND the even more CO2 to actually mine and transport it and to make the batteries and panels you want...is only increasing the already high temperatures....which in turn will make you want more AC. Have we thought this through?
EG-4 PowerPro 14.3KW and 18Kpv inverter Less then $10k for both fully certified even in California. With two EG4 18Kpv inverters and 6 PowerPro wall batteries you can have 85.5KW of capacity. Total cost $34172 directly from Signature solar.
Nicely done video. Concise, clear, and informative.
Great video!!! Great info!!!
Make more videos buddy. This was great.
Does the Tesla Powerwall 3 limit the types of electric input that is possible and if so is there a way around the constraint. What I would like is for the battery to manage providing power to my home and accept electricity from many sources, ideally, but perhaps not required simultaneously.
- grid input
- solar input from roof top solar and other solar
- wind
- hydro electric
- gas generators
Thanks for the video
I have a 4kw solar only with sunsun but I want to upgrade more panels and battery backup what would you recommend Tesla solar/1-2 batteries or sunrun? Family of 4 plus 1 EV coming this summer in CA.
EG4 PowerPro battery 14.3KW for $$3799 UL1973, and UL9540A plus CEC approved. The EG4 18kpv combined together cost $9060.
20 minutes is great.
Where did you get this information? Because I've tried to get confirmation of this from Tesla regarding dual versions of PW3 as well as it being expandable and they're telling me that isn't true.
A very friendly sales rep in Vegas during 2023 SPI event. But remember that these scalability features will be available overtime on a OTA software update
Hello I am in the process of having a new system installed. The installer claims, and is pushing, that the Powerwall 2 with micro inverters on the panels is a more efficient system than the Powerwall 3 with the inverter in the battery unit.
What do you think about this claim?
Is the battery chemistry safer in the Powerwall 3 in your opinion?
Thank You for any advice!
Powerwall3 is vapour at the moment, so if you're mid-installation, it's an irrelevance. As for whether your installer's claims are correct or not, many factors might play into it, making an universal answer impossible. Ask him to explain in detail WHY he says this: if he talks about long DC cable runs it would be worth listening to. You could look at the datasheets for the conversion efficiency figures. But if he blusters, then maybe he just wants you to hand over some cash today rather than to prevaricate until the day when the Powerwall3 is actually available to base some realistic plans on.
Powerwall 3 uses LFP cells which are safer and last much longer than NCA/NMC cells.
Yes, it would be efficient. It would also be expensive.
The assumed configuration is that the powerwall 3 would be similar to 3x 5kw inverters. It would be difficult to predict how the strings are run before guidance and manuals come out, but the usual approach to inverter strings of panels, is that they are tied together as a group, or grid.
Enphase is useful when your roof does not have the standard rectangular shape, and the panels can’t be put into a grid layout.
Each traditional string of panels is efficient when they act as a cohort. But if one panel gets shaded, the performance drops by 1/6 to 1/2 for all panels. Partial shading drops the wattage and power of the whole group of panels. This is a traditional flaw, but also an efficiency. Each MPPT handles the group or string of panels separately.
So if you had a 5x5 grid of panels, it’s assumed that you would have 2 strings of different lengths. 12 + 13 or 10+ 15 sic. Because there’s 6 strings possible, you could have 5 strings of 5, and the group would be run horizontally ie because the sunrise to midday angles would make the bottom row, perform better earlier in the morning, and worse in the evening. Or vice versa depending on the side of the house.
Smaller strings make shading loss less noticeable, optimisers can boost all panels on the same string.
Microinverters, you can face them upside down and it won’t affect the overall solar. It would be expensive though as instead of one box on the wall that handles the conversion, you need 20 small inverters on standard AC home wiring (sold by Enphase, with exclusive connectors)
The overall advantage of Enphase is you can spend more. And you get more.
That’s the main advantage. If you want to upgrade, you don’t need a second $4k inverter and planning, you can just add a combiner box, run the new panels on a chimney, or somewhere stupid, and you’ve added 4kw. Or, in a better example, a carport or shed tied to the house circuit, where you also have a EV charger. They will not be on the same wiring, but they can share the same conduit and infrastructure, where a normal Solar install requires a nearby inverter and separate grid safety/isolation/wiring and other equipment.
I use around 50 kWh a day. I need at least four of these to back everything up for one day. Of course, in a total city or statewide blackout, I would cut consumption down to 1 kWh for just medical equipment. But that would only give me an extra day for a total of two days of backup power. That's enough time for me to get enough gas or propane for my secondary backup generator.
I also use around 40 to 50 kWh per day on South Florida. But my battery is only 25kwh. I received a notification when running off grid so I can shut down the water pump, rise temperature on thermostat, turn off any phantom load and move the consumption to the daytime when the solar PV is working
@@Edu-Rodriguez It'd be nice if there were a device that would turn all those things off for you automatically during an outage.
@@Constitution1789 you could set up a non-critical load panel or going the high-tech way using something like a smart Span panel. There are many ways
LRA and motor starting current capability are two different numbers.
Thank you, how many amps per PW3?
Around 50A continuous and surge of close to 150A
Can Powerwall 3 be installed with old solar panels. I heard that you can only install a Powerwall 3 with new Tesla solar panels. Have I heard correct information or not? I don't know. Well done for spotting that Powerwall 3 is LFP technology. I have watched another video where they did not spot it. I believe it is very difficult for LFP batteries to explode or have a fire. They are much safer. Also, they last twice as long as NCA or NMC technology. However, they are a little bigger and heavier. LFP batteries are definately the way to go.
It may require a new string to connect the panels, since the new inverter has a wildly unknown capacity for panels.
Restringing is not a huge expense, but it can expose faults and damage that was ignored.
Judging purely from the fact it has 6x MPPTs, the assumption is that the solar inverter capacity is 11.5kw shared across a maximum of 15kw of panels given oversizing of 133%.
This also creates an odd situation where most inverters only have 2, or occasionally 3 MPPTs capable of half the load capacity. If they literally put 3x 5kw solar inverters circuitry inside the PW3, then it creates a strange situation where you have 2.5kw of panels per string, and ~1875w per string.
This can be a good thing, but it also reduces the potential capacity if your roof isn’t symmetrical or you need a small string facing another angle, of 4-5 panels, alongside a string of 11 panels. This works okay if you have 400w panels from Value brands like Jinko, Trina, et al, but some of the new panels are over 500w, and require expensive mounting/ skirting for snow/ice which may not be compatible with the voltage range accepted. The new panels can be a nuisance for an inverter which doesn’t have an optimiser option to lower/boost the voltages.
And that’s mostly because the small strings can only have 5-6 420w panels. Each MPPT will be quite small, ie that 15kw could be 11kw if you choose cheaper panels or expensive panels.
If it is basically a retrofit 3x 5kw solar inverter, this could explain a lot of the load and DC conversion numbers. It also allows people to put extra panels in shaded areas or at angles which may receive less sun, such as Northwest, East/West or at a steep angle of 28-30’ which would be less efficient. By moving the weak or shaded panels to a smaller string, the cost can be offset by the potential minor gain.
Normally, these awkward strings are ignored, because they tend to cost $1k to mount and wire 3-4 panels before even buying the panels, which won’t produce much power over the whole day, due to shading.
I have heard the Powerwall 3 can be connected either by AC or DC so one or the other will support legacy solar systems.
I don't think 13kWh would do a whole day... depends on the loads, and the weather, of course, but with our heat pump, in winter. that's probably a stretch.
Remember your solar powers the house directly during the day. I have a single Powerwall and my evening use never reaches 50% of capacity and is usually only around 30-40%. I have gas appliances and don't run AC off the solar and Powerwall.
Tesla solar is very competitively priced not so their Power walls. To bad because they seem to work well.
4h to 20min but still charge 6000$ for installation!??
So you don't have to purchase a grid-tie inverter anymore, but now you have to purchase PV Rapid Shutdown (RSD) using Tesla Mid-Circuit Interrupters. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
This product is going to lose serious market share as it is now DC coupled only. This severely limits installation flexibility and I guarantee you we will see a revamp of the Tesla power wall 2 when Tesla realizes how poor their sales are with respect to the power wall 3.
details or specs of PW3 hard to come by since it was made public. but then, Tesla PW don't stand a chance vs equipment from China that are much cheaper and flexible.
I can tell you have never installed a Powerwall +.
It installs no different than the PW3.
....and how many (of the as yet un-released) Powerwall3 have you installed, exactly?
You fail to realise the foolishness of what comes out of your mouth....but you open it anyway.
FYI - The Average Home will needs at least 3-4 of these batteries. So still way expensive. Most people aren't willing to pay $30k plus just for batteries.
Why would an average home need 40kw of storage?
@@simonpaine2347 They do if you want enough power. Look it up.
Pure BS! You really don't know what you're talking about. Plenty of people live just fine on one of these. I live in a large house and use about 8 kWh per day. I've done hundreds of installs where the customer was educated on energy efficiency first before investing in a massive battery system.
I have an average home. 1 powerwall 6kw solar panels. $18k (after tax credit) $22k without. -FYI
@@simonpaine2347 The unit for storage is kilowatt hours. The power output of an inverter is kilowatts.
The purported and massive reduction of installation time is an absolute lie! It is completely shameful that they publish an installation time in the neighborhood of 20 minutes. That is pure marketing garbage!
Not worth it at even half the price...
LiIon instead of LiFePo (Huge degradation after 800 cycles for Powerwall and more risk to go on fire with degradation). No possibility to fix without Tesla. Only 13kwt/h for such a price.... When you literally can purchase 20kwt/h LiFePo battery with same 10 years warranty for same money. And LiFePo battery will be more fire safe...
Powerwall 3 uses LiFePo4 cells
PW3 will use LFP batteries.
Keep it simple. Solar or no solar, Bronco Power Boost is an option.
Is ugly compared to the 2 though!
How lol
😊
Powering central air will kill it within 2 hours.
So you don't have to purchase a grid-tie inverter anymore, but now you have to purchase PV Rapid Shutdown (RSD) using Tesla Mid-Circuit Interrupters. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂