Tough topic, especially when you know the person involved and witnessed the accident. Be well Juan. My heart feels heavy for the loss and the pain everyone is going through.
Yes, my heart goes out to Juan and Kellen, and I just want to say to Kellen, what an unfortunate start to your internship, to witness a fatal crash. I had watched Juan's video from the training day, introducing Kellen after a 6 hour flight together. So happy and upbeat. Then I heard about the crash. As an eyewitness, we never forget events like this, and they are a reminder of what can go wrong, with just a moment's inattention or a bad judgement call. This video was very tastefully done, and educational. At least some good can come out of this tragedy. My prayers are with everyone affected, especially Tom's family and friends.
Retired crop duster here. A really good exercise for all pilots is to go up to a safe altitude and stall the aircraft and DON’T recover right away. Keep the stick back in your lap and control all the wing drops with your rudder. Gives you experience that might have saved a life in this case.
An excellent exercise! Early in my training this was demonstrated and I was required to practice and become proficient at it. I don’t know the proper term but the instructor called it, “walking the rudder.” The reason for the emphasis was that I was training in the small two place Grumman. A follow up to Bede’s Yankee design. Short wingspan and close coupled, a joy to fly but any aileron input in a full stall would snap it in a heartbeat. One quickly learned - don’t do that, any aileron input will bite back with a vengeance. I went on to fly professionally and that early training always lurked in my subconscious. I never had to test the skill in a crisis situation but that early experience may just be the reason why I did not.
Having flown 1,000's of hours in a C-140, I can tell you they (all planes really) are like rattlesnakes, they do not cause problems as long as you "understand" their nature, and while flying never look away...they always bite when you are least expecting it.
I have a question for those in the know... is this type of plane suitable for STOL flying? If yes, was part of the problem in this case the difference in approach speed with the STOL-drag designed planes? Could this risk be adequately mitigated by requiring them to fly in a separate group, even one on their own? Or would it be sufficient to remind pilots before such a demonstration that they should lengthen their run, to increase the separation? Thanks in advance.
The C140 would definitely not be competitive in the company of true STOL designed aircraft as in this case. To accommodate it in such a competition, it should be slotted first in the grid to prevent such a situation. Class racing would be even better as suggested.
@thebeequeeper yes you should know your machine. What do you mean by “while flying never look away” ? Give some examples of how any plane can bite. Some are very docile, others yes for sure. I think it depends on the aircraft, however.
I got really familiar with the notion of "Decreasing Headwind Shear" from back in 1991. I was flying out of Atlantic City from Bader Field and strong winds were coming off the ocean from the East. We lined up for runway 11 with a couple tall casinos in our path to the ocean. We saw the departing Cessna climb a few hundred feet and then he inexplicitly descended quite rapidly. He then banked hard to the South, and then hard to the East over Atlantic Ave I believe, where he made his way out over the boardwalk and beyond. We tried to reach them on Unicom but got no answer. We eventually finished the runup and departed the same runway. Then at 350ft or thereabouts the stall warning horn blared, our airspeed dropped by almost 30kts, so we pushed the nose over, turned to the South, and then to the East and over the boardwalk. We happened to have entered the Dead-Zone where the wind from the Ocean side was essentially blocked by the casinos as we got closer and closer to them and the boardwalk. Nothing left to do but push the nose over, get some speed, and navigate around the buildings to the South. There were Notams about wind shear, but I was a new pilot and didn't really have a deep understanding of how big a factor that change in direction of wind, or in our case, the complete disappearance of wind could be. Lesson learned!
You said that Tom was a fast burner but unfortunately he lacked flying basics. He lacked situational awareness by cutting the pattern short behind an aircraft that he knew had a substantially slower stall speed than the aircraft he was flying. You are exactly right about operating an aircraft in the area of Reverse effect of control. When a wing drops when operating that close to the critical angle of attack it needs to be raised by rudder NOT aileron. If you use aileron then instead of raising the dropped wing you will cause it to stall out! Classic Falling Leaf practice that the 140 does beautifully. This is what happened to Tom. Tom's very first recovery should have been to 1) reduce his angle of attack and 2) use left rudder. If you are going to attempt this level of flying then you need to be acutely aware of that situation and the only way to do that is by extensive practice of stall and recovery and NOT using your ailerons. Unfortunately, with the proper inputs, Tom had the altitude to recover. Hopefully, for those who desire to fly their aircraft in this flight envelope, they will learn by Tom's mistakes and go out and get to know their airplane intimately at that very critical airspeed. When we were young we were taught to be afraid of the Boogeyman. Unfortunately in aviation today the Boogeyman is Stalls. If we were to return to the days of flight training of way back when then the pilot won't be terrified of a stalling the airplane as they are now. If you get a PPL in Canada, Jamaica or South Africa, Spins are in the syllabus. I've been giving Spin Endorsements for over 30 years and I use a Cessna 150. Why a 150? Because that's the type of airplane that the CFI Candidate will be teaching in and it builds confidence in that airplane. The typical thrill ride in an Extra 300 is an injustice the CFI Candidate. At least 50% of the candidates that come to me have never experienced a full power on or power off stall! REALLY? And they're going to be Instructors? This is why during my Endorsements I also do extensive work in power on and off stalls, Falling Leaf, Dutch Rolls and what I call the "Stupid Student" power on stalls where the typical student doesn't use right rudder but uses right aileron and end up in a left hand spin. They then go full right aileron and full up elevator and end up in the "Pilot Fetal Position"! I apologize for my rant but I'm desperately passionate about the lack of emphasis on the simple aviation basics in the training environment of today. We're producing flying Robots that aren't being taught to think and fly...
Thank you for this input. I'm in the last 3rd. of my way to PPL here in Norway and this have been a concern for me. What if.... I get a wing drop in a gusty day 20 feet above ground on final? Will I manage to add opposite rudder instead of aileron? I hope so, and are practicing this in my mind over and over again (I'm 55 y/o so I have to add this into my unconsiuness manually). But again, thank you for your proper explanation, which was very helpful for me.
Well said. "Tailgating" the Zenith narrowed options down to "go around." Your assessment is honest and correct - maintain separation is a flying basic.
Prayers for Tom and his family. I have flown as a Commercial Pilot since 1968. Retired now but I don’t consider a 500 hour pilot experienced, just has some experience, two different things.
That's kind of what I was thinking but he did say he "wasn't a rookie" which I guess is kind of true but he definitely wasn't far removed from being one.
Do you think a commercial pilot has good knowledge and experience with stalls and spins as you are always flying straight and level at high altitude and well within your limits?
@@gogogeedus yes, some do all should. I crop dusted for 3 years, flew aerobatics with Frank Price for 3 years in a Pitts. Today’s new pilots, I really don’t know. I flight instructed for 2 years and never soloed a student who couldn’t master a 3 turn spin right and left. Even lost one job over my solo requirement. There is a big difference in pilots and pilots!
No, 500 hours is like a teenager behind the wheel of a car. Using driving as a comparison, 500 hours at an average speed of 55 mph would only be 27,500 miles. Not experienced.
My deepest condolences to Tom's family and friends. But thank you Juan for stepping up and explaining things in such a great way. If it can help prevent this kind of thing from happening again I'm sure Tom and his family would want others to learn from this.
I lost a friend in a similar accident. Thanks for sharing so that others might avoid the same type of accident. Hang in there Juan! It really hits home when the FAA asks for a statement.
Thank you for sharing about that and I send my condolences, even if it was a long time ago. Your comment should be highlighted, IMO. Because it helps to emphasize this kind of hazard. We will never know how many lives were saved by spreading the word but it is always worth doing. Safe flying.
Thanks Juan, I appreciate you and your reporting on this tragic turn of events. My youngest son is a USAF fighter pilot and also the proud owner of a 1946 Cessna C140. I'll send him this report and let him digest it and add to his knowledge base. Keep up the good work and time you put into keeping everyone up to speed on these untimely and tragic events.
Fighter aircraft and 140 obviously night and day. Have him become intimate with the 140 at and just above the critical angle of attack and keeping it level with your feet and going in and out of stalls because it's a docile airplane.
Thank you for the visual explanation (graphic) for this non-flyer. I hate to hear about the tragic events, but I appreciate how you use it as a teaching moment.
This was difficult to watch and I know it was terrible to experience Juan. I'm glad you took a couple days before posting this video, and I'm glad you did your best to turn it into a teachable moment.
Operating behind the power curve is kind of a scary place to be having “fun” on a gusty day. I didn’t realize the pilot didn’t make it until I read the comments. 😱 OMG! The last video you did everyone was having fun. So sad. My sincere condolences. Thanks for the video Juan! This information might just help somebody in the future. 👍
I've watched a few videos about this crash and they all state or strongly imply that this kind of stall event is unrecoverable and any pilot (and occupants if any) would lose their life in the nose-down crash. Very tragic.
@@islandlife756 All pilots know that flying behind the power curve in addition to low and slow is dangerous. In fact this type of flying is the worst type of airplane event ever conceived because there is very little room for error. It’s a risk some pilots are willing to take.
This is a tough one because you not only witnessed it but you knew the pilot. You’re commentary makes everyone better and saves lives. I hope you never forget that Juan. Take care of yourself.
Thank you for you clear and concise reporting of the C140 crash, and also for your heartfelt stumble on the previous video about them and probable density altitude cause of the crash .
I’m going to hug my kid especially tight tonight. Tom’s 5 kids missing their dad and after another elementary school shooting this afternoon in TX, a dozen or so parents will be missing their kids.
Great report Juan! My heart goes out to the Pilot's Family, you, and all others who witnessed this tragic event! Let's hope this will be a tragedy that others will learn from and prevent future accidents in STOL competitions and flying in general! There is a wife without a husband and 5 children without a Father, such a sad ending.
Juan, this had to be one of the toughest videos you have done. Hopefully explaining as you have done with stall spins you will as you have done in the past continue to save many lives. I know you have made me a better pilot. Thank you.
Juan has made me a better passenger, too. I'm never going to be a pilot unless I'm in a small plane with a pilot who becomes incapacitated in flight. In that case I will be hearing Juan, 74 Gear Kelsey, and Mentour Pilot saying aviate navigate communicate over and over, while I try to keep the wings level, check the fuel levels, move the yoke slowly, and then make sure I land on the main wheels first with the nose up slightly. ;-) May I never need to use this info.
Great explanation. I appreciate this thoughtful account of what happened. My heart goes out to everyone who had to witness it and to Tom’s loved ones. ❤️
To all those saying that STOL is asking for this kind of incident: You clearly didn't watch to the end. As Juan says, the proper way to do these STOL maneuvers is to fly at approach speed until you are in (or nearly in) ground effect, then bring the speed back to execute your short landing roll. Similar with takeoff: you rotate and lift off as slow as possible, then lower the nose, accelerate, and climb away at Vx or Vy. If flown that way, the risks are no more extreme than many others we accept in everyday life. The issue here was that planes with different approach speed were operating with limited spacing in the same pattern, so the C140 was well below its approach speed trying to maintain spacing, and _then_ tried to maneuver. Nothing fundamentally unsafe about the event. Just poor sequence and unfortunate decision making once the spacing got too short.
@@ianallan2337 there was only 1 aircraft in front of the accident aircraft. A go-around decision should have been made by the pilot. We can all learn from this.
Devastating for the Dagon family. Our thoughts and prayers with you all. Juan, our thoughts are with you too, having witnessed the accident. We all know and love your passion for aviation and flying so know it’s tough on you too. Some effective learnings to come from this tragedy for sure that will make future events safer for all.
very tuff topic, and your discussion brought back a lot of how I used to land back in the early '70s with my Piper PA-22-160 + McAllen Gullwing Tips. I lived in West Texas NW of Borger, and the winds were fairly stable "most of the time". Prayers for Tom's family and how things were handled after the incident.
Looks like a classic pilot error accident. Back when I was instructing I "knew" 500 hours of flight time to be the very most dangerous. Enough experience to think you're good, but not enough to have great judgment. He made 2 critical failures. 1. Not maintaining proper airspeed, and apparently, 2. not knowing that aircraft control in a stall is a rudder problem until airspeed is restored.
I think the critical failure was not considering wind direction at the low airspeed when he turned downwind to initiate the S-Turn. Once the wing dropped there was no altitude even for a perfect recovery using the rudder.
@@pfsantos007 Yup.... When your 3 to 5 seconds from the ground (from 300-400ft alt) reaction time has to be instant... In this case even an acro pilot may not make it. Please don't use a C140 for this kind of "sport", just not a good fit.
@@pfsantos007 I don't agree wind was THE critical failure, but it could have played a part. Clearly, low altitude played a part. As to "once the wing dropped." Back when I was instructing, one of the maneuvers I would use for rudder training was to fly and maneuver in a full stall. It's not that hard and rudder becomes automatic. Being slow enough to stall meant his ailerons would have been very "mushy." That should have keyed him to use a lot more rudder. cheers n fly safe
Condolences to all involved. I live not far from Wayne and saw this on the news and wondered if you were still there when it happened. Thanks for sharing this difficult report.
My sincere condolences to their families. And thank you a lot for explaining the various dangerous points, that we as pilots need to keep due attention to.
Years ago I used to ride an old CB350 Honda, a very tired, elderly and worn out CB350. I knew that bike like the back of my hand and knew how to ride around it's shortcomings. My friends all had 400cc race replica bikes and I used to ride with them at quite high speeds around corners and so on. One evening, we all swapped bikes and my friend who was regarded as the fastest rider amongst us took my knackered old Honda. 5 or 10 minutes down the road he pulled over, I pulled in as well thinking one of it's many faults had manifested itself but he hurriedly handed me the keys and said "you're a braver man than I had you down for". Yes, that old crock of a Honda could be ridden fast but it was constantly on the ragged edge whereas those little 400 race reps were well within their comfort zones. Decent brakes, good tyres, power on tap and great frame geometry and handling whereas my old Honda had brakes that were ornamental at best, tyres were round and black (that's the best review of them, really), you had to pin the throttle open at every opportunity to even hope to stay with the faster bikes and it wouldn't always give you the same results every time you opened it up and the frame felt like it had several hinges built into it. Yes, I could "make it do fast" but should I have done it? Absolutely not. And, in my limited understanding of this unfortunate gentleman's demise, neither should he have taken this little Cessna (aka a little Honda) to a race meeting. I'm guessing that that little aircraft was operating far nearer to the ragged edge I mentioned above than it's racing counterparts were.
Juan, when you mention the reaction to use aileron to lift the falling wing, I guess it is instinct. When I learned in a Lucsombe 50 years ago, my CFI believed instinct was not what he was counting on. He said, "this is what to do". And I believed it! Just did what he SAID. Soon after, my first job in Alaska flying low and slow counting salmon, I got the Super Cub too slow and dropped a wing. 75ft. AGL. I immediately unloaded the wings, full throttle and flew it out of the bad maneuver. Changed my underwear later and reflected on early advice. Angle of attack ( which seemed mysterious at the time) was what my CFI harped on. I guess he saved my bacon that day. I won't criticize this deceased pilot, just note that flying is unforgiving. You absolutely DO what works, not what you instinctively feel. RIP sir.
Juan, Thank you for the straight up analysis of this. I'm afraid we will see more of this, since STOL is so popular. I love it, but, when flying there's certain parameters that can't be challenged. You, make flyers remember that. Just like my teacher. Thank you.
As always, excellent great video on a terrible tragedy. I wasn't there, but would have if I could have... those pilots are my brothers and friends. Thank you!
Thanks Juan!..very difficult time for friends, thoughts and prayers for the family. The one issue I keep coming back to is training for an event the day before. Realizing that Tom had already received training for STOL Drag,it still seems to me that entrants should already be qualified prior to the event. Not particularly relevant in this accident, but I'm sure there will be a review of regulations and requirements for participants in any future events. Your analysis of this event is ( as always ) professional and concise, Thank you! Blue skies Tom!
True to form, "there are old pilots and bold pilots...". Thanks to you Juan, Dan and the other old hawks who try to keep those young less experienced chicks alive for free. God bless you guys
You said it Alester,There are risks involved in many things and one needs not stack the deck against ones self.if you make it past 60 you've probably been part lucky and a good part smart.Some random things like lightning strikes,a head on by a drunk driver or a disease are common to us all.The part where smarts come in is to enjoy things that one misstep is not likely to end in death .
Thank you for the update! It had to be a difficult video for you to make witnessing it first hand. My previous comments in no way had/have any reflection on you or the STOL community. I have seen way to many times people jump to conclusions that creates a lot of other issues for the affected family and the flying community! Thanks for everything you do!
This must have been hard for you to produce having been there in person. Having witnessed a few near misses and one near-fatal/serious injury collision I know how absolutely heart-stopping it is to watch and not be able to help.
Good analysis. The use of rudder at low speed stalls situations and the adverse effects of aileron use is not often taught in GA training. ... in my opinion.
An old friend and flying buddy of mine used to call that effect "reverse ailerons" where the ailerons would actually have the opposite effect than what was intended under certain flying condition IE high AOA and the incipient stall spin phase.
I remember the one sailplane lesson I took. If you tried to turn without enough rudder it would turn the opposite direction. It took a lot of rudder to turn with those long wings. It was a good lesson that I haven’t forgot, even though I don’t fly or instruct anymore.
Thats a good point... The intuitive / reaction thing is to use aileron when a wing drops at slow speedbut its the worst thing you can do. Rudder rudder.
Sailplane instruction spends a LOT of time on stall and recovery training. Important when you don't have the luxury of "going around*. Im sure the pilot knew what to do, however it shows that in emergency situations its very difficult to resist the urge of doing the opposite hence he tendancy to use aileron to pick up the wing or pull back on the stick. Tragic loss and my thoughts are with the family.
My experience is that if you use aileron to try and pick up a stalled wing is you go into a spin. Been there, done that -at a safe altitude- and changed my skivvies once I got back on the ground safely.
Induced drag is not specifically from wingtip vortices but from throwing less air downwards faster as you slow down. To stay aloft the momentum of the air thrown downwards has to stay constant, but as the amount of air you hit gets reduced by reduced speed, you have to throw that air downwards faster. Energy of the thrown air goes like the square of its velocity, so increases with lower speed, and that energy shows up via the Navier Stokes equations as increased drag on the airplane, growing like the (the reciprocal of) the cube of the velocity, so in short very fast as you slow down. Wingtip vortices are just one spectacular way that the lost energy persists to be seen, but most of it is just air thrown downwards, which produces no particular visible effects. If you want to capture a bird in a room, just keep him flying by prodding with a stick wherever he lands, and he'll fall to the floor exhausted in short order. It takes huge amounts of energy to fly slowly. The same bird flies continental distances at higher speed.
@@gogogeedus No need to go to math, keep it simple by explaining it as Juan did and demonstrate it. Many instructors don't "teach", those that don't are simply building time 😡. You don't get paid for pre-planning the flight in the classroom,stuff the student in the plane and get the Hobbs Meter counting time. Have much experience as an instructor and FAA Designated Flight Examiner. That's where I learned some instructors do not impart their knowledge 🙄
@@gregorylocke Stalls are about airflow separation. Induced drag (more drag the slower you're flying) is about throwing air downwards. A lot of the air thrown downwards comes from the air above the top of the wing until the flow separates and then that air isn't much thrown downwards and you lose a lot of lift. Bernoulli by the way isn't the cause of flight - it reverses cause and effect. The air goes faster because it ran down a pressure gradient. The wing shape happens to be an efficient way to throw air downwards without huge forward drag, but that's thanks to the Navier Stokes equations and not much else.
Thank you Juan, these videos never get easier to watch. Your assessment was well said. My heart will always be with those who lose their pilot. It’s hard to tell the ones you love not to do what they love.
Thanks for the explanation Juan. After watching a video of the accident I had questions which you answered. It seems a big takeaway here is not having slower aircraft in front of faster aircraft during STOL events. That seems obvious to me but maybe it wasn’t, until now. This is so tragic but hopefully others will not lose their lives as a result of necessary changes that will be made after this horrible event.
You assessment is 100% correct in my opinion. In 1975 I received my license in El Paso, TX after flying 40 hours in a 1964 Cessna 150. Recognizing the landing gear configuration difference between the 150 and the 140, virtually all other aspects of the planes are the same, with handling being predictably the similar. I went on during the next year to fly another 110 hours in that plane. During the 1st 40 hour period, my CFI wanted me to demonstrate certain things the plane just wouldn't do if the relative wind were 20mph or higher. One of them was a power on stall. You can disagree all you want, but that particular plane simply wouldn't stall with a no flap, full power departure configuration flying into the wind. We were almost vertical and she just hung on the prop. Instead of reducing power, which would have been the better way to demonstrate the stall, he asked to drop a wing (I had practiced this many times before and learned the hard way "not" to do this). I gave him my opinion, but he insisted. I left full power in and slightly lowered the left wing. She still wouldn't stall. He asked me to lower the wing even more (I hate to say I told you so). I lowered the wing more, then suddenly the top wing stalled. When it stalled, the plane flipped instantly on its back as the starboard wing rolled over the top. This makes me sound like the self-proclaimed "big guy" which I'm not. Because it happened so fast, I just let the plane flip over, went wings level, lowered the nose (we had plenty of altitude), then applied power and slowly pulled out of the stall. After that, we abandoned power-on stalls and instead reduced power and practiced "what you should do" if you're going to hold a stall in this plane. As the buffet occurs and you feel the onset of the stall, you use "only opposite rudder" which pushes the tail in the direction of the stalling wing and eliminates (usually) the stall from occurring. Then you proceed with conventional recovery. One of my better experiences with this plane was another Cessna 150 pilot with hundreds of hours in his plane. He asked if I had ever "backed" the plane across a road while in flight. I just looked at him. He took the controls (average West Texas day, clear with a 15-20 knot breeze) slowed the plane into the wind, added flaps to match the air speed, and got the speed to a point I had not witnessed before. While recognizing we were crazy slow, my question was, how can you prove you are backing up. He said "look at our shadow on the ground". Sure enough, the shadow on the ground traveled backwards very slowly across a road. Next time I'll tell you about flying into the massive crater just West of El Paso. Also about flying natural gas pipeline inspection in West Texas.
We lost an instructor and student at my flight school in a stall/spin incident, I knew the instructor and still think of her. I gave up flying for a year following that and when I did get back switched flight schools, it’s always tough when this happens to someone you know
In everything new there are many aspects that need to be perfected. I hope to see the ideas & changes that might come from this tragedy to keep STOL going. TY Juan for the time you put into these videos & all videos about aviation. As for me & not being a manned aircraft pilot it is very educational in learning & understanding aviation. I'll never be manned aircraft pilot, I'm too old & my health would never allow it. Juan you have brought an interest & a want for the knowledge. I have to say Juan you have some very good knowledge & is wonderful that you share it. My condolences to Tom's family & friends....
Hang glider pilot here. Basically every landing I do is a STOL. I don't have wheels! The description Juan gave is perfect for how I approach a landing. Come in with speed, get into ground effect, allow the aircraft to bleed off speed, gradually increasing aoa until a final flare at the end coming to a dead stop, where I extend the gear. Wind gradients and gusts are much more of an issue for an aircraft that stalls at maybe 12 knots. If it's blowing 25 knts at 100ft, and 5 knts on the ground, which is not uncommon, you need to have some airspeed on hand to cope with that, despite the very gentle stall characteristics of a swept wing with large washout.
I remember you remarking on the stol pilots getting into these habits. it saddens me you perfectly predicted this happening. it shows your extensive body of knowledge.
Someone on another analysis of this by a STOL knowledgeable commentator said he didn't see an s-turn. I thought the analysis was spot on, aligning with yours. And you saw it happen.
I was fortunate enough to have instructors driving the point home that rudder is your best friend in this circumstance, not aileron. One exercise we did was establishing a dead-stick descent with no hands on the column and using the rudder to do the work - all the way to landing. Point made! Condolences at the loss of your friend, to his family, and the flying community.
Yes, too little emphasis of when to use only is no longer taught so much. The rudder only technique works with the power/pitch approach as well...even better because of prop blast on the rudder. I taught the STOL type power/pitch deceleration on short final coming into ground effect approach as default. I jammed my thumb against one side of the stick or below the right side of the yoke on short final. When the student tried to make a coordinated turn (use aileron with adverse yaw) and looked over at me I would say, "walk the rudders." If we walk the rudder pedals to bracket the centerline, the airplane cannot turn, cannot bank. Unless we lead rudder when we do want to turn, the nose will go the wrong way. Stepping on the ball, a reaction to fix lack of coordination, does not help on short final because we have already wagged the wing. Next attempting to maintain altitude in a startle turn at very slow airspeed is just too much for dynamic neutral stability to fix unless we release all back pressure and allow the airplane to do what it is designed to do: fly and not stall.
You did good and kept it together for this video that had to be made, I’m sorry this happened to you and your friends. I’ve been waiting for your video on this since I heard it happened and know it was not going to be an easy one for you. It’s really sad, he was closing in a higher speed flying machine and really should have done a 360 for some space. So sad it ended the way with a gust of wind dropping out from under him and the rest is just hard to watch. RIP
Hi Juan. Sad news. When people (pilots & public) go out to have fun and enjoy such an event, a tragic accident like this it`s a punch in the stomach, to say the least. May Tom`s soul rest in peace, and our best thoughts for his familly in this tough moment. Happy landings from Portugal.
My dad was a veteran light aircraft instructor, learned to fly in 1935 and then instructed in the RAF during WW2 and became an examiner and conducted many instructor courses and was still flying when he was 81. He always said to me that when you're near the ground you were at your most vulnerable in an aircraft. Two ingredients needed to spin i.e stall and yaw. RIP
Oh calamity, to hear about the Cessna 140. Serendipitous that the incident is described in front of the Cessna 140's Bigger brother...the Mighty Luscombe..! Wonderful to see the Mighty Luscombe is influencing a younger generation.
You are right about Stall/Spins, I learned to fly in the early 1970’s at a Piper Flight Center. The Instructor & I would spin the Cherokee 140, do a full Stall and Right or Left Aileron, the 140 would break into a Spin…
I know this was a tuff video to produce. Your all in with STOL events like Valdez, AK, Oshkosh and the Reno Air Races. This is a sad situation because it happened in the traffic pattern. Tom probably misjudged the speed of the Zenith on final. I'm guessing pulled power back, brought the nose up and tried to hold altitude. The classic textbook entry. You need to ADD power to keep your airspeed. Banking will increase stall speed. If you enter a stall, unload the wings. Add full power and level the wings. In Aerobatics we teach P. A. R. E for spin recovery. P - Power Idle A - Ailerons neutral R - Rudder FULL opposite spin direction E - Elevator Neutral
Juan, This must have been an especially difficult video for you to make, given the circumstances. Thanks for the education and for helping others understand what happened from an eyewitness point of view.
Your intern has an opportunity of a lifetime in the palm of his hand. I sincerely hope he has the drive and inherent talent to take full advantage of the blessing he has of being mentored by you. He's hit the lottery in my opinion.
Juan - Almost tragic deal at Wawa Ontario in '74. I drove w/Buddy from MI, Cessna 172 Float Plane to Lodge, caught lots of fish, Beaver (luckily) for return to Wawa w/dense fog, in 100% whiteout got clearance from Air Service using engine noise for clearance of hill (mountain?) to settle/land. I not pilot but seated in rt seat. Told pilot had passed ground school, but ours said I jumped stretched arm out near to windshield & shouted "Mountain There"! Supposed to be only dense fog there so pilot yelled "Full gas, full flaps, here...take wheel and pull until straight up". Pilot trimmed, adjusted, and coaxed most from Beaver until I said "Straight up Sir"! Pilot grabbed wheel while I said "Sheer rockface 10' below floats". Pilot dam near sht. We were slow but with full power & engine snortin' did continue up short ways until I said "That's it", pilot kicked rudder & w/last air over control surfaces Beaver turned straight down 'till treeline meant Pilot dodged trees until trimmed top off last one and roared up into the safety of the zero visibility fog. Pilot got schtuff back together, went around with new approach, got new more better clearance from Owner of Air Service that had just tried to kill us, and performed perfect landing. I know what you want Juan...what was the cause of the near crash? Well, it was bizarre. On other line Owner had The War Dept, ignored handlers' shouts that sound had went silent (Mountain between Air Service and plane again), but continued to have other cheek ripped off by his Wife, so I suppose the cause would be filed under "Beautiful Beaver nearly lost due to cheek removal by angry Beaver operating remotely"!
What is significant to point out is, when flying on the backside of the power curve, is speed instability. When the speed drops off slightly, more power must be added immediately to keep that speed (as power required is higher for the lower speed for level flight). Reversely; if the speed increases the aircraft will accelerate further as less power required for increased speed. Typically, at the backside of the power curve, part of the wing has separated airflow already. This means that you have to be on top of the game with power, in order to keep a certain speed. One moment of distraction and you’re falling out of the sky. This event looks like that’s what happened (traffic in front of him). The slope of the backside of the power curve is strongly related to wing aspect ratio’s. A high performance glider has a short steep backside in which it is virtually impossible to fly without breaking a stall and delta wings have long, manageable backsides in which manual flight can be conducted with relative ease. I flew for years seat of the pants without knowing this until I found out during my aeronautics college flight performance classes
I just learned the STOL takeoff and landings when crash occurred were not part of the STOL DRAG COMPETITION event that had been cancelled. Apparently The crash occurred when pilots had nothing to do so the pilots decided they wanted to go flying in a STOL demonstration. That means the STOL Demonstration was just a bunch of pilots flying at an uncontrolled field with no one in Charge therefore no one was responsible for crash except each pilot being responsible for their own safety
Juan this so sad to see a fun event turn into tragedy but it doe highlight that aviation particularly small planes can be very unforgiving to pilot error ,my condolences to the family and all who witnessed this tragedy. Kym Adelaide
As always, thanks Juan. Stunning how quickly the stall-spin developed and how futile recovery efforts prove to be at low altitude. Little margin for error when you’re flying on the edge. Angel’s Wings Tom, RIP.
Juan,hi, I saw this so many times, what a very sad outcome, RIP, and my condolences to his family, not to make this any better, but in the 1970s@CDW, SOMEONE DID JUST THAN, on approach to 22/4, in aC150, he did survive but died next day, my instructor and few students were there, so it was of important discussion , it’s real tough to witness such an event, I never forgot it , stay well 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
A lot of chatter around the web regarding this accident. Firstly, here's a man who seemingly had EVERYTHING. A beautiful wife, five beautiful children, a successful business and a successful career.... and a beautiful vintage airplane. For some reason he chose to compete in these STOL competitions alongside actual STOL designed aircraft. Admittedly, these skills are useful and valuable in back country aviation, so one can understand why a pilot would want to hone and practice such maneuvers. BUT... when you weigh that against a family life with six loving people who depend on you and need you as a Husband and Father, it begs the question why one would risk that in dangerous competition. Some would say it was ego and hubris. Over confidence, perhaps. But.... whatever the underlying reason, it is all moot now - Tom Dafoe is dead and his airplane smashed, and more importantly his wonderful family is left bereft and wondering what the future holds without him. All is a skinny instant. God Speed Dafoe family. Namaste'
No, it doesn’t beg that question at all. I’m sure he just enjoyed that kind of flying. Not that complicated and doesn’t require idiotic speculation about a dead persons motives.
If we're willing to, we can learn from what Tom did wrong so another doesn't do it. That means we have to examine all factors - motives included - especially since there is no flight data recorder to know his last inputs. Sorry, but a good investigation will look at everything. Tom's last takeoff, just a couple of minutes before the stall, was hard to watch. He was not doing his best flying that day. So, everything including his state of mind must be examined for the benefit of others so that his tragic death wasn't for nothing. Can we learn anything from trying to explore his state of mind? If the answer is yes, then let's learn. I lost a dear friend in 1992. He was a 10,000 hour pilot. But, on that day the investigation revealed that he was in a hurry. He told a few people at stops that day he had to get going. From his last stop and refuel, he said, "we have to get out ahead of the storm." He flew right into it. It hurt me bad to learn about his decision that day, but it only made my focus better. Food for thought - I don't think Joseph has the long knives out for Tom.
A life void of risks is not living. I'd personally rather die 10 years early and take risks in my life than live those 10 years but having never taken any chances. Yes there is a chance of death in flying, there is a chance of death when driving, there is a chance of death hiking, biking, boating, horse back riding, archery, mountain climbing, golfing, wood working, farming, swimming, welding, etc. We each can weigh the risks for our self and make the judgement that best fits our life and risk aversion. I personally won't bungee jump or bass jump but I support those that choose to take those risks. I'm not in their shoes.
I agree. A man takes care of his family first and foremost. Hard for me to imagine how someone takes extreme risks when they have a family to take care of. Part of the problem is the seeming normalization of STOL flying. It's seems to have become extremely popular in recent years. The normalization suggests that this is somehow safe because many people are doing it. It's not. It's a great way for a senseless death.
This part about not using the aileron to pick a stalled wing was never mentioned by my instructor. I think new pilots may be learning more from watching this channel than they ever have before.
Tough topic, especially when you know the person involved and witnessed the accident. Be well Juan. My heart feels heavy for the loss and the pain everyone is going through.
Tough topic. Like competitive timing rock climbing without ropes. Demonstrates skill, but dangerous as hell. Don’t do dumb stuff. You can die.
Yes, my heart goes out to Juan and Kellen, and I just want to say to Kellen, what an unfortunate start to your internship, to witness a fatal crash. I had watched Juan's video from the training day, introducing Kellen after a 6 hour flight together. So happy and upbeat. Then I heard about the crash. As an eyewitness, we never forget events like this, and they are a reminder of what can go wrong, with just a moment's inattention or a bad judgement call. This video was very tastefully done, and educational. At least some good can come out of this tragedy. My prayers are with everyone affected, especially Tom's family and friends.
Retired crop duster here. A really good exercise for all pilots is to go up to a safe altitude and stall the aircraft and DON’T recover right away. Keep the stick back in your lap and control all the wing drops with your rudder. Gives you experience that might have saved a life in this case.
Was just doing this in my 140 the other day with the CFI. It is great but definitely needs to be practiced to become natural.
An excellent exercise! Early in my training this was demonstrated and I was required to practice and become proficient at it. I don’t know the proper term but the instructor called it, “walking the rudder.” The reason for the emphasis was that I was training in the small two place Grumman. A follow up to Bede’s Yankee design. Short wingspan and close coupled, a joy to fly but any aileron input in a full stall would snap it in a heartbeat. One quickly learned - don’t do that, any aileron input will bite back with a vengeance. I went on to fly professionally and that early training always lurked in my subconscious. I never had to test the skill in a crisis situation but that early experience may just be the reason why I did not.
The C-140 is great at this. It was taught to me as "walking it down".
@@atg197 do it over and over and over! Stall the crap out of it!! Have fun!
@@gonflying Thanks I will definitely be doing that with a bit of altitude.
knew tom since I was 15 years old. he was a great friend, mentor, and pilot. he will be missed.
Having flown 1,000's of hours in a C-140, I can tell you they (all planes really) are like rattlesnakes, they do not cause problems as long as you "understand" their nature, and while flying never look away...they always bite when you are least expecting it.
I have a question for those in the know... is this type of plane suitable for STOL flying? If yes, was part of the problem in this case the difference in approach speed with the STOL-drag designed planes? Could this risk be adequately mitigated by requiring them to fly in a separate group, even one on their own? Or would it be sufficient to remind pilots before such a demonstration that they should lengthen their run, to increase the separation? Thanks in advance.
The C140 would definitely not be competitive in the company of true STOL designed aircraft as in this case. To accommodate it in such a competition, it should be slotted first in the grid to prevent such a situation. Class racing would be even better as suggested.
@thebeequeeper yes you should know your machine. What do you mean by “while flying never look away” ?
Give some examples of how any plane can bite. Some are very docile, others yes for sure. I think it depends on the aircraft, however.
Sounds like precisely the wrong type of aircraft for deliberately flying low and slow.
The airplane is definitely a capable little STOL machine, just not as efficient as its more advanced and STOL technology equipped counterparts.
Tough briefing Juan but we appreciate your information it may help avoid another accident in this type of event.
Thank you, Juan. Your humanity and professionalism are kept in proper balance. May Tom RIP.
I got really familiar with the notion of "Decreasing Headwind Shear" from back in 1991. I was flying out of Atlantic City from Bader Field and strong winds were coming off the ocean from the East. We lined up for runway 11 with a couple tall casinos in our path to the ocean. We saw the departing Cessna climb a few hundred feet and then he inexplicitly descended quite rapidly. He then banked hard to the South, and then hard to the East over Atlantic Ave I believe, where he made his way out over the boardwalk and beyond. We tried to reach them on Unicom but got no answer. We eventually finished the runup and departed the same runway. Then at 350ft or thereabouts the stall warning horn blared, our airspeed dropped by almost 30kts, so we pushed the nose over, turned to the South, and then to the East and over the boardwalk. We happened to have entered the Dead-Zone where the wind from the Ocean side was essentially blocked by the casinos as we got closer and closer to them and the boardwalk. Nothing left to do but push the nose over, get some speed, and navigate around the buildings to the South. There were Notams about wind shear, but I was a new pilot and didn't really have a deep understanding of how big a factor that change in direction of wind, or in our case, the complete disappearance of wind could be. Lesson learned!
Thank goodness you had some elevation and reacted quickly! Scary.
You said that Tom was a fast burner but unfortunately he lacked flying basics.
He lacked situational awareness by cutting the pattern short behind an aircraft that he knew had a substantially slower stall speed than the aircraft he was flying. You are exactly right about operating an aircraft in the area of Reverse effect of control. When a wing drops when operating that close to the critical angle of attack it needs to be raised by rudder NOT aileron. If you use aileron then instead of raising the dropped wing you will cause it to stall out! Classic Falling Leaf practice that the 140 does beautifully. This is what happened to Tom. Tom's very first recovery should have been to 1) reduce his angle of attack and 2) use left rudder. If you are going to attempt this level of flying then you need to be acutely aware of that situation and the only way to do that is by extensive practice of stall and recovery and NOT using your ailerons.
Unfortunately, with the proper inputs, Tom had the altitude to recover. Hopefully, for those who desire to fly their aircraft in this flight envelope, they will learn by Tom's mistakes and go out and get to know their airplane intimately at that very critical airspeed.
When we were young we were taught to be afraid of the Boogeyman. Unfortunately in aviation today the Boogeyman is Stalls. If we were to return to the days of flight training of way back when then the pilot won't be terrified of a stalling the airplane as they are now. If you get a PPL in Canada, Jamaica or South Africa, Spins are in the syllabus.
I've been giving Spin Endorsements for over 30 years and I use a Cessna 150. Why a 150? Because that's the type of airplane that the CFI Candidate will be teaching in and it builds confidence in that airplane. The typical thrill ride in an Extra 300 is an injustice the CFI Candidate. At least 50% of the candidates that come to me have never experienced a full power on or power off stall! REALLY? And they're going to be Instructors? This is why during my Endorsements I also do extensive work in power on and off stalls, Falling Leaf, Dutch Rolls and what I call the "Stupid Student" power on stalls where the typical student doesn't use right rudder but uses right aileron and end up in a left hand spin. They then go full right aileron and full up elevator and end up in the "Pilot Fetal Position"!
I apologize for my rant but I'm desperately passionate about the lack of emphasis on the simple aviation basics in the training environment of today.
We're producing flying Robots that aren't being taught to think and fly...
Thank you for this input. I'm in the last 3rd. of my way to PPL here in Norway and this have been a concern for me. What if.... I get a wing drop in a gusty day 20 feet above ground on final? Will I manage to add opposite rudder instead of aileron? I hope so, and are practicing this in my mind over and over again (I'm 55 y/o so I have to add this into my unconsiuness manually). But again, thank you for your proper explanation, which was very helpful for me.
a CFI who has no experience of a spin is scary.....
Well said. "Tailgating" the Zenith narrowed options down to "go around." Your assessment is honest and correct - maintain separation is a flying basic.
Thank you Juan, A thoughtful synopsis of a terrible accident.
Prayers for Tom and his family. I have flown as a Commercial Pilot since 1968. Retired now but I don’t consider a 500 hour pilot experienced, just has some experience, two different things.
That's kind of what I was thinking but he did say he "wasn't a rookie" which I guess is kind of true but he definitely wasn't far removed from being one.
Do you think a commercial pilot has good knowledge and experience with stalls and spins as you are always flying straight and level at high altitude and well within your limits?
@@gogogeedus yes, some do all should. I crop dusted for 3 years, flew aerobatics with Frank Price for 3 years in a Pitts. Today’s new pilots, I really don’t know. I flight instructed for 2 years and never soloed a student who couldn’t master a 3 turn spin right and left. Even lost one job over my solo requirement. There is a big difference in pilots and pilots!
No, 500 hours is like a teenager behind the wheel of a car. Using driving as a comparison, 500 hours at an average speed of 55 mph would only be 27,500 miles. Not experienced.
@@kennynorton2473 EXACTLY my sentiments, those are basics! I won't solo a student unless I've spun them!
My deepest condolences to Tom's family and friends. But thank you Juan for stepping up and explaining things in such a great way. If it can help prevent this kind of thing from happening again I'm sure Tom and his family would want others to learn from this.
I lost a friend in a similar accident. Thanks for sharing so that others might avoid the same type of accident. Hang in there Juan! It really hits home when the FAA asks for a statement.
Thank you for sharing about that and I send my condolences, even if it was a long time ago. Your comment should be highlighted, IMO. Because it helps to emphasize this kind of hazard. We will never know how many lives were saved by spreading the word but it is always worth doing. Safe flying.
Thanks for the update , basics can never be emphasized enough . Condolences to the family.
God Bless Tom's family and friends on this terrible accident. Thank You Juan for this Heart felt video.
Man.. what a tragedy. I know his family is going through the ringer right now. Hopefully they are getting support. I can’t imagine.
Thanks Juan, I appreciate you and your reporting on this tragic turn of events. My youngest son is a USAF fighter pilot and also the proud owner of a 1946 Cessna C140. I'll send him this report and let him digest it and add to his knowledge base. Keep up the good work and time you put into keeping everyone up to speed on these untimely and tragic events.
Fighter aircraft and 140 obviously night and day. Have him become intimate with the 140 at and just above the critical angle of attack and keeping it level with your feet and going in and out of stalls because it's a docile airplane.
@@gonflyingoo
Thank you for the visual explanation (graphic) for this non-flyer. I hate to hear about the tragic events, but I appreciate how you use it as a teaching moment.
Oh, dude. Kudos for bringing us this story and analysis. It couldn't have been easy.
This was difficult to watch and I know it was terrible to experience Juan. I'm glad you took a couple days before posting this video, and I'm glad you did your best to turn it into a teachable moment.
Tragic loss I live in Wayne and love to see this event every year, prayers to the family and all of you in the flying community
Operating behind the power curve is kind of a scary place to be having “fun” on a gusty day. I didn’t realize the pilot didn’t make it until I read the comments. 😱 OMG!
The last video you did everyone was having fun. So sad. My sincere condolences. Thanks for the video Juan! This information might just help somebody in the future. 👍
Unfortunately the pilot was killed. Name was Tom Dafoe
@@kcindc5539 It was supposed to be a fun event. Poor guy. I bet he didn’t know what hit him.
I've watched a few videos about this crash and they all state or strongly imply that this kind of stall event is unrecoverable and any pilot (and occupants if any) would lose their life in the nose-down crash. Very tragic.
@@islandlife756 All pilots know that flying behind the power curve in addition to low and slow is dangerous. In fact this type of flying is the worst type of airplane event ever conceived because there is very little room for error. It’s a risk some pilots are willing to take.
This is a tough one because you not only witnessed it but you knew the pilot. You’re commentary makes everyone better and saves lives. I hope you never forget that Juan. Take care of yourself.
Thank you for you clear and concise reporting of the C140 crash, and also for your heartfelt stumble on the previous video about them and probable density altitude cause of the crash .
I’m going to hug my kid especially tight tonight. Tom’s 5 kids missing their dad and after another elementary school shooting this afternoon in TX, a dozen or so parents will be missing their kids.
It’s crushing to even think about.
Great report Juan! My heart goes out to the Pilot's Family, you, and all others who witnessed this tragic event! Let's hope this will be a tragedy that others will learn from and prevent future accidents in STOL competitions and flying in general! There is a wife without a husband and 5 children without a Father, such a sad ending.
Juan, this had to be one of the toughest videos you have done. Hopefully explaining as you have done with stall spins you will as you have done in the past continue to save many lives.
I know you have made me a better pilot.
Thank you.
Juan has made me a better passenger, too. I'm never going to be a pilot unless I'm in a small plane with a pilot who becomes incapacitated in flight. In that case I will be hearing Juan, 74 Gear Kelsey, and Mentour Pilot saying aviate navigate communicate over and over, while I try to keep the wings level, check the fuel levels, move the yoke slowly, and then make sure I land on the main wheels first with the nose up slightly. ;-) May I never need to use this info.
I've been waiting to hear your report Juan.
Thanks, this had to be tough.
A sad day.
Thanks JB. God Speed Tom. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends, and our aviation community. God Bless --gary
Great explanation. I appreciate this thoughtful account of what happened. My heart goes out to everyone who had to witness it and to Tom’s loved ones. ❤️
To all those saying that STOL is asking for this kind of incident: You clearly didn't watch to the end. As Juan says, the proper way to do these STOL maneuvers is to fly at approach speed until you are in (or nearly in) ground effect, then bring the speed back to execute your short landing roll. Similar with takeoff: you rotate and lift off as slow as possible, then lower the nose, accelerate, and climb away at Vx or Vy. If flown that way, the risks are no more extreme than many others we accept in everyday life.
The issue here was that planes with different approach speed were operating with limited spacing in the same pattern, so the C140 was well below its approach speed trying to maintain spacing, and _then_ tried to maneuver. Nothing fundamentally unsafe about the event. Just poor sequence and unfortunate decision making once the spacing got too short.
No, the problem here is that without any significant transgression a man died. Too many planes, too slow, too close. BAD EVENT MANAGEMENT!
@@ianallan2337 there was only 1 aircraft in front of the accident aircraft. A go-around decision should have been made by the pilot. We can all learn from this.
@@ianallan2337 lol, hope you don't fly on a weekend anywhere ever.
@@josephditroia4946 So how many would be an issue?
@@wgmskiing Not a good time to laugh. Do you have a license, Garrett?
Thanks for your perspective and education. I saw the Air Safety Institute video of the crash earlier today. What a shame for his friends and family.
Devastating for the Dagon family. Our thoughts and prayers with you all.
Juan, our thoughts are with you too, having witnessed the accident. We all know and love your passion for aviation and flying so know it’s tough on you too. Some effective learnings to come from this tragedy for sure that will make future events safer for all.
very tuff topic, and your discussion brought back a lot of how I used to land back in the early '70s with my Piper PA-22-160 + McAllen Gullwing Tips. I lived in West Texas NW of Borger, and the winds were fairly stable "most of the time". Prayers for Tom's family and how things were handled after the incident.
Thanks Juan. Love and sympathy to the family.
Looks like a classic pilot error accident. Back when I was instructing I "knew" 500 hours of flight time to be the very most dangerous. Enough experience to think you're good, but not enough to have great judgment. He made 2 critical failures. 1. Not maintaining proper airspeed, and apparently, 2. not knowing that aircraft control in a stall is a rudder problem until airspeed is restored.
Yup. Classic.
I think the critical failure was not considering wind direction at the low airspeed when he turned downwind to initiate the S-Turn. Once the wing dropped there was no altitude even for a perfect recovery using the rudder.
@@pfsantos007 Yup.... When your 3 to 5 seconds from the ground (from 300-400ft alt)
reaction time has to be instant... In this case even an acro pilot may not make it.
Please don't use a C140 for this kind of "sport", just not a good fit.
@@pfsantos007 I don't agree wind was THE critical failure, but it could have played a part. Clearly, low altitude played a part. As to "once the wing dropped." Back when I was instructing, one of the maneuvers I would use for rudder training was to fly and maneuver in a full stall. It's not that hard and rudder becomes automatic. Being slow enough to stall meant his ailerons would have been very "mushy." That should have keyed him to use a lot more rudder. cheers n fly safe
Condolences to all involved. I live not far from Wayne and saw this on the news and wondered if you were still there when it happened. Thanks for sharing this difficult report.
My sincere condolences to their families. And thank you a lot for explaining the various dangerous points, that we as pilots need to keep due attention to.
well done Juan. such a tragic loss for a beautiful family. Deepest sympathies to them and loved ones.
Having owned C120 with a C-85 engine I wouldn't dream of doing STOL in that thing. Good, basic aircraft.
Its like bringing a yugo to a drag race.....why?
Years ago I used to ride an old CB350 Honda, a very tired, elderly and worn out CB350. I knew that bike like the back of my hand and knew how to ride around it's shortcomings.
My friends all had 400cc race replica bikes and I used to ride with them at quite high speeds around corners and so on. One evening, we all swapped bikes and my friend who was regarded as the fastest rider amongst us took my knackered old Honda.
5 or 10 minutes down the road he pulled over, I pulled in as well thinking one of it's many faults had manifested itself but he hurriedly handed me the keys and said "you're a braver man than I had you down for".
Yes, that old crock of a Honda could be ridden fast but it was constantly on the ragged edge whereas those little 400 race reps were well within their comfort zones. Decent brakes, good tyres, power on tap and great frame geometry and handling whereas my old Honda had brakes that were ornamental at best, tyres were round and black (that's the best review of them, really), you had to pin the throttle open at every opportunity to even hope to stay with the faster bikes and it wouldn't always give you the same results every time you opened it up and the frame felt like it had several hinges built into it.
Yes, I could "make it do fast" but should I have done it? Absolutely not. And, in my limited understanding of this unfortunate gentleman's demise, neither should he have taken this little Cessna (aka a little Honda) to a race meeting. I'm guessing that that little aircraft was operating far nearer to the ragged edge I mentioned above than it's racing counterparts were.
Had an RZ 250 like that.
Very spooky little rocket.
Sorry for the loss of your aviation colleague , Juan as always you explain the details with great expertise keep the great work up and stay safe👍👍
Juan, when you mention the reaction to use aileron to lift the falling wing, I guess it is instinct. When I learned in a Lucsombe 50 years ago, my CFI believed instinct was not what he was counting on. He said, "this is what to do". And I believed it! Just did what he SAID.
Soon after, my first job in Alaska flying low and slow counting salmon, I got the Super Cub too slow and dropped a wing. 75ft. AGL. I immediately unloaded the wings, full throttle and flew it out of the bad maneuver. Changed my underwear later and reflected on early advice. Angle of attack ( which seemed mysterious at the time) was what my CFI harped on. I guess he saved my bacon that day. I won't criticize this deceased pilot, just note that flying is unforgiving. You absolutely DO what works, not what you instinctively feel. RIP sir.
Juan, Thank you for the straight up analysis of this. I'm afraid we will see more of this, since STOL is so popular. I love it, but, when flying there's certain parameters that can't be challenged. You, make flyers remember that. Just like my teacher. Thank you.
As always, excellent great video on a terrible tragedy. I wasn't there, but would have if I could have... those pilots are my brothers and friends. Thank you!
Thanks Juan!..very difficult time for friends, thoughts and prayers for the family. The one issue I keep coming back to is training for an event the day before. Realizing that Tom had already received training for STOL Drag,it still seems to me that entrants should already be qualified prior to the event. Not particularly relevant in this accident, but I'm sure there will be a review of regulations and requirements for participants in any future events. Your analysis of this event is ( as always ) professional and concise, Thank you! Blue skies Tom!
True to form, "there are old pilots and bold pilots...". Thanks to you Juan, Dan and the other old hawks who try to keep those young less experienced chicks alive for free. God bless you guys
You said it Alester,There are risks involved in many things and one needs not stack the deck against ones self.if you make it past 60 you've probably been part lucky and a good part smart.Some random things like lightning strikes,a head on by a drunk driver or a disease are common to us all.The part where smarts come in is to enjoy things that one misstep is not likely to end in death .
That little Cessna has flown for safely for 76 years and they went down. Not its falt, just as no gun jumps up and shoots people.
Thanks Juan. Condolences to all for such a tragic loss.
Thank you for your report, RB, Nova Scotia.
Thank you for the update! It had to be a difficult video for you to make witnessing it first hand. My previous comments in no way had/have any reflection on you or the STOL community. I have seen way to many times people jump to conclusions that creates a lot of other issues for the affected family and the flying community! Thanks for everything you do!
Jaun, Thanks for the Vid. A Very Sad Situation. My condolences to the family.
This must have been hard for you to produce having been there in person. Having witnessed a few near misses and one near-fatal/serious injury collision I know how absolutely heart-stopping it is to watch and not be able to help.
Exactly what i was thinking
Good analysis. The use of rudder at low speed stalls situations and the adverse effects of aileron use is not often taught in GA training. ... in my opinion.
An old friend and flying buddy of mine used to call that effect "reverse ailerons" where the ailerons would actually have the opposite effect than what was intended under certain flying condition IE high AOA and the incipient stall spin phase.
I remember the one sailplane lesson I took. If you tried to turn without enough rudder it would turn the opposite direction. It took a lot of rudder to turn with those long wings. It was a good lesson that I haven’t forgot, even though I don’t fly or instruct anymore.
Thats a good point...
The intuitive / reaction thing is to use aileron when a wing drops at slow speedbut its the worst thing you can do. Rudder rudder.
Sailplane instruction spends a LOT of time on stall and recovery training. Important when you don't have the luxury of "going around*. Im sure the pilot knew what to do, however it shows that in emergency situations its very difficult to resist the urge of doing the opposite hence he tendancy to use aileron to pick up the wing or pull back on the stick. Tragic loss and my thoughts are with the family.
My experience is that if you use aileron to try and pick up a stalled wing is you go into a spin. Been there, done that -at a safe altitude- and changed my skivvies once I got back on the ground safely.
Juan gives a lot of great advice.
Induced drag is not specifically from wingtip vortices but from throwing less air downwards faster as you slow down. To stay aloft the momentum of the air thrown downwards has to stay constant, but as the amount of air you hit gets reduced by reduced speed, you have to throw that air downwards faster. Energy of the thrown air goes like the square of its velocity, so increases with lower speed, and that energy shows up via the Navier Stokes equations as increased drag on the airplane, growing like the (the reciprocal of) the cube of the velocity, so in short very fast as you slow down. Wingtip vortices are just one spectacular way that the lost energy persists to be seen, but most of it is just air thrown downwards, which produces no particular visible effects.
If you want to capture a bird in a room, just keep him flying by prodding with a stick wherever he lands, and he'll fall to the floor exhausted in short order. It takes huge amounts of energy to fly slowly. The same bird flies continental distances at higher speed.
Forget 1/v^3. Done too quickly in my head. It might be 1/v^3 but not with the calculation I did.
@@yclept9 if he had done his math he would still be alive?
It’s all about airflow separation. You might want to re-read Mechanics of Flight or Flight without Formulae. 😊
@@gogogeedus No need to go to math, keep it simple by explaining it as Juan did and demonstrate it. Many instructors don't "teach", those that don't are simply building time 😡. You don't get paid for pre-planning the flight in the classroom,stuff the student in the plane and get the Hobbs Meter counting time. Have much experience as an instructor and FAA Designated Flight Examiner. That's where I learned some instructors do not impart their knowledge 🙄
@@gregorylocke Stalls are about airflow separation. Induced drag (more drag the slower you're flying) is about throwing air downwards. A lot of the air thrown downwards comes from the air above the top of the wing until the flow separates and then that air isn't much thrown downwards and you lose a lot of lift. Bernoulli by the way isn't the cause of flight - it reverses cause and effect. The air goes faster because it ran down a pressure gradient. The wing shape happens to be an efficient way to throw air downwards without huge forward drag, but that's thanks to the Navier Stokes equations and not much else.
Thank you Juan, these videos never get easier to watch. Your assessment was well said. My heart will always be with those who lose their pilot. It’s hard to tell the ones you love not to do what they love.
Craig you're mental. Absolutely brilliant 😄👍
My thoughts go out to his family, and his friends in the aviation community who witnessed this tragic event.
Insane
Thanks for the explanation Juan. After watching a video of the accident I had questions which you answered. It seems a big takeaway here is not having slower aircraft in front of faster aircraft during STOL events. That seems obvious to me but maybe it wasn’t, until now. This is so tragic but hopefully others will not lose their lives as a result of necessary changes that will be made after this horrible event.
You assessment is 100% correct in my opinion. In 1975 I received my license in El Paso, TX after flying 40 hours in a 1964 Cessna 150. Recognizing the landing gear configuration difference between the 150 and the 140, virtually all other aspects of the planes are the same, with handling being predictably the similar. I went on during the next year to fly another 110 hours in that plane. During the 1st 40 hour period, my CFI wanted me to demonstrate certain things the plane just wouldn't do if the relative wind were 20mph or higher. One of them was a power on stall. You can disagree all you want, but that particular plane simply wouldn't stall with a no flap, full power departure configuration flying into the wind. We were almost vertical and she just hung on the prop. Instead of reducing power, which would have been the better way to demonstrate the stall, he asked to drop a wing (I had practiced this many times before and learned the hard way "not" to do this). I gave him my opinion, but he insisted. I left full power in and slightly lowered the left wing. She still wouldn't stall. He asked me to lower the wing even more (I hate to say I told you so). I lowered the wing more, then suddenly the top wing stalled. When it stalled, the plane flipped instantly on its back as the starboard wing rolled over the top. This makes me sound like the self-proclaimed "big guy" which I'm not. Because it happened so fast, I just let the plane flip over, went wings level, lowered the nose (we had plenty of altitude), then applied power and slowly pulled out of the stall. After that, we abandoned power-on stalls and instead reduced power and practiced "what you should do" if you're going to hold a stall in this plane. As the buffet occurs and you feel the onset of the stall, you use "only opposite rudder" which pushes the tail in the direction of the stalling wing and eliminates (usually) the stall from occurring. Then you proceed with conventional recovery.
One of my better experiences with this plane was another Cessna 150 pilot with hundreds of hours in his plane. He asked if I had ever "backed" the plane across a road while in flight. I just looked at him. He took the controls (average West Texas day, clear with a 15-20 knot breeze) slowed the plane into the wind, added flaps to match the air speed, and got the speed to a point I had not witnessed before. While recognizing we were crazy slow, my question was, how can you prove you are backing up. He said "look at our shadow on the ground". Sure enough, the shadow on the ground traveled backwards very slowly across a road.
Next time I'll tell you about flying into the massive crater just West of El Paso. Also about flying natural gas pipeline inspection in West Texas.
We lost an instructor and student at my flight school in a stall/spin incident, I knew the instructor and still think of her. I gave up flying for a year following that and when I did get back switched flight schools, it’s always tough when this happens to someone you know
In everything new there are many aspects that need to be perfected. I hope to see the ideas & changes that might come from this tragedy to keep STOL going. TY Juan for the time you put into these videos & all videos about aviation. As for me & not being a manned aircraft pilot it is very educational in learning & understanding aviation. I'll never be manned aircraft pilot, I'm too old & my health would never allow it. Juan you have brought an interest & a want for the knowledge. I have to say Juan you have some very good knowledge & is wonderful that you share it. My condolences to Tom's family & friends....
Praying for family and friends it was a sad accident, Juan great explaination of the accident.
God bless you Juan and the family.
Hang glider pilot here.
Basically every landing I do is a STOL. I don't have wheels! The description Juan gave is perfect for how I approach a landing. Come in with speed, get into ground effect, allow the aircraft to bleed off speed, gradually increasing aoa until a final flare at the end coming to a dead stop, where I extend the gear.
Wind gradients and gusts are much more of an issue for an aircraft that stalls at maybe 12 knots. If it's blowing 25 knts at 100ft, and 5 knts on the ground, which is not uncommon, you need to have some airspeed on hand to cope with that, despite the very gentle stall characteristics of a swept wing with large washout.
I remember you remarking on the stol pilots getting into these habits. it saddens me you perfectly predicted this happening. it shows your extensive body of knowledge.
Someone on another analysis of this by a STOL knowledgeable commentator said he didn't see an s-turn. I thought the analysis was spot on, aligning with yours. And you saw it happen.
Great explanation. And yes…. Jerry and the Clemens crew rock
I was fortunate enough to have instructors driving the point home that rudder is your best friend in this circumstance, not aileron. One exercise we did was establishing a dead-stick descent with no hands on the column and using the rudder to do the work - all the way to landing. Point made! Condolences at the loss of your friend, to his family, and the flying community.
Yes, too little emphasis of when to use only is no longer taught so much. The rudder only technique works with the power/pitch approach as well...even better because of prop blast on the rudder. I taught the STOL type power/pitch deceleration on short final coming into ground effect approach as default. I jammed my thumb against one side of the stick or below the right side of the yoke on short final. When the student tried to make a coordinated turn (use aileron with adverse yaw) and looked over at me I would say, "walk the rudders." If we walk the rudder pedals to bracket the centerline, the airplane cannot turn, cannot bank. Unless we lead rudder when we do want to turn, the nose will go the wrong way. Stepping on the ball, a reaction to fix lack of coordination, does not help on short final because we have already wagged the wing. Next attempting to maintain altitude in a startle turn at very slow airspeed is just too much for dynamic neutral stability to fix unless we release all back pressure and allow the airplane to do what it is designed to do: fly and not stall.
You did good and kept it together for this video that had to be made, I’m sorry this happened to you and your friends. I’ve been waiting for your video on this since I heard it happened and know it was not going to be an easy one for you. It’s really sad, he was closing in a higher speed flying machine and really should have done a 360 for some space. So sad it ended the way with a gust of wind dropping out from under him and the rest is just hard to watch. RIP
Prayers for Tom and his family. Thanks for the explanation. Tha could have very well of happened to me, a number of times.
Hi Juan. Sad news. When people (pilots & public) go out to have fun and enjoy such an event, a tragic accident like this it`s a punch in the stomach, to say the least. May Tom`s soul rest in peace, and our best thoughts for his familly in this tough moment.
Happy landings from Portugal.
My dad was a veteran light aircraft instructor, learned to fly in 1935 and then instructed in the RAF during WW2 and became an examiner and conducted many instructor courses and was still flying when he was 81. He always said to me that when you're near the ground you were at your most vulnerable in an aircraft.
Two ingredients needed to spin i.e stall and yaw.
RIP
Thanks for the video.
Thanks for the info on a difficult situation.
Failure to aviate.
And I pay attention to this stuff. Helps my driving.
Oh calamity, to hear about the Cessna 140. Serendipitous that the incident is described in front of the Cessna 140's Bigger brother...the Mighty Luscombe..!
Wonderful to see the Mighty Luscombe is influencing a younger generation.
Excellent video!
Sorry you had to see that Juan. As always thanks for the great coverage.
I sure like your presentations
Many Prayers for the Family of Tom, his wife, and those beautiful children.
My heart goes out to Tom's family. I went to Aviation Maintenance College with him. He was a super nice guy 🥺
You are right about Stall/Spins, I learned to fly in the early 1970’s at a Piper Flight Center. The Instructor & I would spin the Cherokee 140, do a full Stall and Right or Left Aileron, the 140 would break into a Spin…
I know this was a tuff video to produce. Your all in with STOL events like Valdez, AK, Oshkosh and the Reno Air Races. This is a sad situation because it happened in the traffic pattern.
Tom probably misjudged the speed of the Zenith on final. I'm guessing pulled power back, brought the nose up and tried to hold altitude. The classic textbook entry. You need to ADD power to keep your airspeed. Banking will increase stall speed.
If you enter a stall, unload the wings. Add full power and level the wings.
In Aerobatics we teach P. A. R. E for spin recovery.
P - Power Idle
A - Ailerons neutral
R - Rudder FULL opposite spin direction
E - Elevator Neutral
Juan, This must have been an especially difficult video for you to make, given the circumstances. Thanks for the education and for helping others understand what happened from an eyewitness point of view.
Your intern has an opportunity of a lifetime in the palm of his hand. I sincerely hope he has the drive and inherent talent to take full advantage of the blessing he has of being mentored by you. He's hit the lottery in my opinion.
Pete is the Poweball winner ( if he takes the same path) , and the intern, MegaMillions😎.
Juan - Almost tragic deal at Wawa Ontario in '74. I drove w/Buddy from MI, Cessna 172 Float Plane to Lodge, caught lots of fish, Beaver (luckily) for return to Wawa w/dense fog, in 100% whiteout got clearance from Air Service using engine noise for clearance of hill (mountain?) to settle/land. I not pilot but seated in rt seat. Told pilot had passed ground school, but ours said I jumped stretched arm out near to windshield & shouted "Mountain There"! Supposed to be only dense fog there so pilot yelled "Full gas, full flaps, here...take wheel and pull until straight up". Pilot trimmed, adjusted, and coaxed most from Beaver until I said "Straight up Sir"! Pilot grabbed wheel while I said "Sheer rockface 10' below floats". Pilot dam near sht. We were slow but with full power & engine snortin' did continue up short ways until I said "That's it", pilot kicked rudder & w/last air over control surfaces Beaver turned straight down 'till treeline meant Pilot dodged trees until trimmed top off last one and roared up into the safety of the zero visibility fog. Pilot got schtuff back together, went around with new approach, got new more better clearance from Owner of Air Service that had just tried to kill us, and performed perfect landing. I know what you want Juan...what was the cause of the near crash? Well, it was bizarre. On other line Owner had The War Dept, ignored handlers' shouts that sound had went silent (Mountain between Air Service and plane again), but continued to have other cheek ripped off by his Wife, so I suppose the cause would be filed under "Beautiful Beaver nearly lost due to cheek removal by angry Beaver operating remotely"!
What is significant to point out is, when flying on the backside of the power curve, is speed instability. When the speed drops off slightly, more power must be added immediately to keep that speed (as power required is higher for the lower speed for level flight). Reversely; if the speed increases the aircraft will accelerate further as less power required for increased speed. Typically, at the backside of the power curve, part of the wing has separated airflow already. This means that you have to be on top of the game with power, in order to keep a certain speed. One moment of distraction and you’re falling out of the sky. This event looks like that’s what happened (traffic in front of him).
The slope of the backside of the power curve is strongly related to wing aspect ratio’s. A high performance glider has a short steep backside in which it is virtually impossible to fly without breaking a stall and delta wings have long, manageable backsides in which manual flight can be conducted with relative ease. I flew for years seat of the pants without knowing this until I found out during my aeronautics college flight performance classes
I just learned the STOL takeoff and landings when crash occurred were not part of the STOL DRAG COMPETITION event that had been cancelled. Apparently The crash occurred when pilots had nothing to do so the pilots decided they wanted to go flying in a STOL demonstration. That means the STOL Demonstration was just a bunch of pilots flying at an uncontrolled field with no one in Charge therefore no one was responsible for crash except each pilot being responsible for their own safety
🙏 for Tom's family and friends
God bless ya Tom 🙏❤️✌️
Juan this so sad to see a fun event turn into tragedy but it doe highlight that aviation particularly small planes can be very unforgiving to pilot error ,my condolences to the family and all who witnessed this tragedy.
Kym Adelaide
As always, thanks Juan. Stunning how quickly the stall-spin developed and how futile recovery efforts prove to be at low altitude. Little margin for error when you’re flying on the edge. Angel’s Wings Tom, RIP.
Power and nose down he may have crashed but perhaps not vertical.
Some rules are needed as this grows
Thank you for the briefing Sorry to hear of the loss of pilot and plane.
Juan,hi, I saw this so many times, what a very sad outcome, RIP, and my condolences to his family, not to make this any better, but in the 1970s@CDW, SOMEONE DID JUST THAN, on approach to 22/4, in aC150, he did survive but died next day, my instructor and few students were there, so it was of important discussion , it’s real tough to witness such an event, I never forgot it , stay well 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thanks again...and very sorry to hear about this. Our thoughts are with family and friends...
A lot of chatter around the web regarding this accident. Firstly, here's a man who seemingly had EVERYTHING. A beautiful wife, five beautiful children, a successful business and a successful career.... and a beautiful vintage airplane. For some reason he chose to compete in these STOL competitions alongside actual STOL designed aircraft. Admittedly, these skills are useful and valuable in back country aviation, so one can understand why a pilot would want to hone and practice such maneuvers. BUT... when you weigh that against a family life with six loving people who depend on you and need you as a Husband and Father, it begs the question why one would risk that in dangerous competition. Some would say it was ego and hubris. Over confidence, perhaps. But.... whatever the underlying reason, it is all moot now - Tom Dafoe is dead and his airplane smashed, and more importantly his wonderful family is left bereft and wondering what the future holds without him. All is a skinny instant. God Speed Dafoe family. Namaste'
if we allowed those things to dictate our lives we might as well just be robots.
No, it doesn’t beg that question at all. I’m sure he just enjoyed that kind of flying. Not that complicated and doesn’t require idiotic speculation about a dead persons motives.
If we're willing to, we can learn from what Tom did wrong so another doesn't do it. That means we have to examine all factors - motives included - especially since there is no flight data recorder to know his last inputs. Sorry, but a good investigation will look at everything. Tom's last takeoff, just a couple of minutes before the stall, was hard to watch. He was not doing his best flying that day. So, everything including his state of mind must be examined for the benefit of others so that his tragic death wasn't for nothing. Can we learn anything from trying to explore his state of mind? If the answer is yes, then let's learn. I lost a dear friend in 1992. He was a 10,000 hour pilot. But, on that day the investigation revealed that he was in a hurry. He told a few people at stops that day he had to get going. From his last stop and refuel, he said, "we have to get out ahead of the storm." He flew right into it. It hurt me bad to learn about his decision that day, but it only made my focus better. Food for thought - I don't think Joseph has the long knives out for Tom.
A life void of risks is not living. I'd personally rather die 10 years early and take risks in my life than live those 10 years but having never taken any chances. Yes there is a chance of death in flying, there is a chance of death when driving, there is a chance of death hiking, biking, boating, horse back riding, archery, mountain climbing, golfing, wood working, farming, swimming, welding, etc. We each can weigh the risks for our self and make the judgement that best fits our life and risk aversion. I personally won't bungee jump or bass jump but I support those that choose to take those risks. I'm not in their shoes.
I agree. A man takes care of his family first and foremost. Hard for me to imagine how someone takes extreme risks when they have a family to take care of. Part of the problem is the seeming normalization of STOL flying. It's seems to have become extremely popular in recent years. The normalization suggests that this is somehow safe because many people are doing it. It's not. It's a great way for a senseless death.
Blessings to Tom’s family.
This part about not using the aileron to pick a stalled wing was never mentioned by my instructor. I think new pilots may be learning more from watching this channel than they ever have before.
Glad you took time on this. We look to you for this.
So sorry for the loss of your friend, be well sir.
Really had to concentrate to hear the difference between "STOL" and "stall". At first I thought Juan was talking about a "stall demonstration".
Wow, thanks for reporting on this uncomfortable scenario