T 38C Crash Vance AFB Ok. Final Report
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- čas přidán 12. 05. 2020
- From a USAF Instructor Pilot perspective.
LINKS:
AETC Report:
www.airforcemag.com/app/uploa...
C.W. Lemoine "Mover" Video:
• Fatal T-38C Mishap at ...
T-38 Formation Landing:
• Cockpit Cam - T-38 Tal...
Patreon:
www.patreon.com/user?u=529500...
PayPal:
www.paypal.me/juanbrowne - Věda a technologie
Matt Kincade, was a great friend of mine. We met when he flew F-18’s while stationed at NAS Lemoore. He left behind his wife Gina and 2 sons, Kyle and Brandon. Thanks for the information Juan!
Sorry Robert.
I had the pleasure of meeting him at Castle AFB ( Atwater airport when he flew in the F18,) think it was 2008, summer time frame. Was a great guy.
Sorry for your lose
Very sorry for your and his family's loss of who must have been a great friend and Father.
Robert, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend and the student pilot too. What a difficult listen this video was but as always, handled by Juan professionally and accurately. Please know that many people who you've never met are sending thoughts to you and the families of the men lost. Thank you all for your service, stand easy Airmen. Blue skies. RIP.
I have a friend that is in the National Guard that I have know since High School. He said the same thing about his T38 training. It was amazing how far down range you are before you realize the gear is still down. Best part of his training and then, like you, he went on to fly the C130’s or what ever they call the model now... His fondest memories of training was the T38. He eventually became the Base Commander and then moved to HQ and now is a Brigadier General. I’m proud of all of you that are serving or have served. You are one of many of America’s Hero’s. Wish I had joined as well... Prayers for the families of the survivors. Damn shame....
@@fishon7301 WOW! That was truly amazing. Felt like I was there! What a description, ahh heck, I wish I was younger and wise enough to have signed up. Would have been an honor to have you as an instructor. I read through this multiple times… you have a gift for telling… Thank you for your service and for the letting me fly along with you as I was reading…. 🫡
Willy 89-14 here....Raindance and Hacker. Also T-38 instructor at CAFB later. Love the channel, great synopsis here. Also hate that everyone suffers just because one unfortunate accident. The Air Force should just stop all flying, it's dangerous and something bad might happen!
Juan: Willy, 66A. Totally agree. The student’s parents sued the Air Force alleging there was “no military requirement for formation landings.” The elimination of formation landings was a reaction to this lawsuit. Once lawyers start determining your training program, things go downhill regarding producing quality, confident pilots. (IMHO).
Willy, 69. We did not do formation landings in the T38. Always came in over the runway and broke off one at a time for a 360 turn and descent to touchdown. Loved flying the T38. Sorry that not all UPT students have the opportunity to fly the 38 today since there are now 2 tracks for training.
As a student, I did several formation landings and as an instructor I did hundreds. I found the training to be safe and effective. If the AF is now going to avoid teaching pilots to be their best then it is a sad day for the AF.@@chuckstockton6489
I graduated class 81-03 from CAFB. I’m shocked to hear that the USAF will no longer require formation landings in the T-38. Formation flying in the T-38 was such a confidence builder. Nice job, as always with the video! I really enjoyed my time flying the T-38.
CAFB 71-07 here. I finished up early so I got 3 extra formation rides as the warm body solo in the 4th aircraft for others 4 ship check rides. The T-38 is definitely a beautiful A/C.
it is always great when one graduates a hard course,, and survived,, not the case for those that died trying to do the same,, fly long enough and you too will have a crash or die,, WE dont have wings and WE aint designed to fly,, this is a stupid way to weed out the lesser skilled/lucky pilots,, just how long would it take for the USAF to land a flight of planes , one at a time over killing two people,,, ole USN vet
Juan, your best video in months. Outstanding job! Thank you for the super detailed, and easy to understand report. You are the best at this (unfortunate) topic.
Mover did a great video on this. Glad you're both providing your perspectives. Keep the great content coming, Juan.
I completed Pilot Training at Reese AFB in 1971 after T=41, T-37 and T-38s. We started with 80 and graduated 30. God, the 38 was great to fly. I loved aerobatics and formation but it was tough every day. I flew later in Combat and was grateful for that toughness. We had one student eject safely and very fortunately no deaths. Several of my classmates however did die in crashes later in their careers. There are no adequate words for the families of these two pilots. Thanks Juan for reporting this incident.
Washington Keels I think I just missed you at Reese. God bless.
I was Reese class 78-08 and enjoyed flying the "White Rocket" so much.
What class? I was an IP in C Flight at the end of the hall from Jan 72 through April 74.
Juan, much respect for you Sir. I see this was a difficult video for you to make since it hit close to home from the experience in your training. Dayton Ohio Air Show is a place to see, feel and converse with the men trained to fly these amazing machines not knowing in reality how unforgiving these planes can be.
For the .00000001% of three cents that it may be worth, I agree with your take on keeping the best possible system going for pilot training. Good analysis and discussion JB.
Don't sell yourself short. I'm sure your opinion is worth more than the face value of a coupon.
I just wanted to say I really really enjoyed watching this, especially the part at the beginning Juan where you showed your photos and talked about your experience. Its nice to see these little self-reveals because you've had such an interesting life! I also learned a lot about an accident I hadn't even heard of. Sad that two pilots were lost in this and it seems it was just basically an unfortunate accident, not something that someone did terribly negligently.
I agree totally. Do NOT lower the standards to the performance, raise the performance to the standards. We have to KEEP the highest standard of skills at all times. There is no place for second place!!
Jason Bowman--hear, hear! Totally agree.
Second place beats being dead.
@Daniel Hostetler It's about taking on a reasonable amount of risk. Nobody is saying that it isn't a skill, what people are saying is that it's a skill that doesn't justify the risk.
Landing for any aircraft is a higher risk situation, then you include it being a relic like a T 38, then you throw in another aircraft within spitting distance.
It's not worth dying over.
@Daniel Hostetler It's a fallacy to say it's not risky because not a lot of accidents occur. I think a far more plausible reason why there is a lack of these accidents occurring is simply because the procedure is rarely done at all.
Formation landing doesn't justify the risk, because it simply isn't done anymore in the "real" world. Nobody else in the US armed forces even trains for them, and the USAF doesn't do them outside initial training.
Others HAVE recognized the danger and have stopped doing these for years now. That's why there aren't any accidents.
All the objectives of a formation landing can be accomplished by a formation approach. In that way, a leading aircraft can guide another all the way to the ground without being an obstacle during one of the most crucial points of the flight. It really makes no sense to do a formation landing because in the real world if a formation approach is needed then the pilots need all the help and margin of safety they can get, you really wouldn't want to start squeezing aircraft onto a runway.
The procedure is a holdover from a different era, nothing more.
Totally agree. The T-38 is not an easy aircraft for beginners. Hell, even for pro's it's a handfull. As instructors (from C150 to B747) , or even as normal airline captains, we are confronted with the same problem, again and again; when should we take over... This crash is nobody's fault. It's a tragedy and it's the risk of the business. Formation landings are calculated risks to hone your skills as a fighter pilot. On the other hand I think it is a very rarely used skill, because most fighter aircrafts could take off and land in bad waether with the help of radar. So, maybe it's a risk we should avoid in the future.
It looks like the instructor saved the other crews life by pulling...
Hello, Juan !! Always glad to hear your technical expertise and explanations of aeronautical accidents. Appreciate you. Stay healthy and blessed !!
I totally agree that flying training shouldn’t be “dumbed down.” Deepest sympathies to the family and friends of the 2 pilots lost. I’ve carried out many formation landings in fast jets. In the UK where the weather is often poor, a “pairs landing” gets your formation down in half the time (you could be a formation of 4 or more ). Keep up the good work Juan.
I love hearing you talk about this plane.
Heartbreaking situation tho.
I was a T-38 PIT instructor at Randolph AFB in the mid 70's and did many formation touch and go's. I always showed my better students an adverse yaw roll and a dirty rudder roll, neither of which were in the syllabus, but I felt were necessary "tools" that my PIT instructor (an ex F-100 jock) taught me. I learned to guard those rudder pedals, they can save you or kill you. It is a shame to see a maneuver that has been required for over 50 years removed because someone's mommy thought it was too dangerous. I remember my Mother's advice for me before UPT was "Don't go too high or too fast". Formation landings were an important confidence maneuver
Apparently I wasn't explicit enough about the adverse yaw roll in a T-38 which I think killed Wilkie and Kincade. When approaching a configured full aft stick stall, (like those guys) if you mash in a little right rudder, (like they did) then abruptly add left aileron without relaxing backpressure to avoid lead, (like they probably did) the plane will snap roll to the RIGHT, just like they did. Unfortunately, most UPT students and instructors treat the stall series like just another maneuver without using it as an opportunity to explore the edge of the aircraft envelope. There should be an effort to teach what the rudders really do at slow speeds rather than just saying keep your feet on the floor.. Sad for all since it could have been avoided.
@@dougwatters356 They balance that need with risk and $$ available ...and time available. I'm with you, but I'm sure they have decided it's not worth the benefit for what they get out of it for mission readiness. In a perfect world, UPT would be at least 18 months long. I learned stuff from other IP's that we never would do with students. LIke circling to land at 600' AGL at .78 AOA using afterburner for G availability. That's a two-pilot job in poor visibility, when jets are recovering to the center runway and your belly is up and can't see them (knowing an overshoot is not an option), with one pilot only watching the VVI for a sink rate. Did it at circling mins. Very awesome jet when you know the limits.
So sad loss of life. The instructor was wanting his apprentice to recover the aircraft to build confidence within him. Sad for their families and may God Bless them.
As your god did nothing to prevent the crash I doubt it's going to doing any blessing.
@CarmenOH87 I think that comes down to a terminology misunderstanding. You knew exactly what RD meant. If he used the word "trainee" or "student" instead of "apprentice" then it would have been quite correct.
Unfortunately, www.godisimaginary.com
Juan, I too had the pleasure to fly the T-38 as student (class 68F) and then 4 years as IP at Webb AFB. I was lead IP in a 4 ship where the number 4 solo student flew through the wake turbulence of number 3 during the climbing portion of a 4 ship loop. We did a controllability check at 15000 ft where he put the gear down then when he started putting the flaps down he flipped inverted and started diving. I yelled for him to put the gear and flaps up and roll level. He ended up flying a straight in flaps up landing. So it was our formation that got T-38 4 ship loops taken out of the syllabus. Remember: Flying Safety is paramount to the completion of the mission .... no comment.... Turns out the empty seat pack had jumped out of the tray and prevented the stick from being pulled back when the flaps were extended. Thanks for a great report, and so sorry for the loss of two Airmen!
The T-38 was designed by Edgar Schmued......the designer of the P-51 Mustang.
Initially designed as a small fighter for Navy escort carriers.
Another excellent report Juan and as I've stated so many times, there is simply no one better. You are a gift to all.
My father spent 27 years as a USAAF/USAF pilot. (Class of 43C.) Started in PT-22s, combat in the P-38 (6 confirmed kills), P-47, F86s, and a few of the century fighters. Retired flying as a B-52 Aircraft Commander. Told me multiple times, his favorite airplane was the T-38....Unlimited in what you could do with it. He didn't have the chance to see the 15,16, or the latest and greatest however...
When I was an Instructor, it was always a difficult call when to take control away from the student. Too early and the student doesn't have the opportunity to make the corrections, too late and this happens. It's too bad the Air Force has suspended this training.
Instructors are a special breed.
Walking the line you described is not an exact science.
Hats off to you sir.
As a student pilot Im always thinking about my instructor behavior when he try to give me oportunity to correct but it seems very difficult to me to supress your instincts and give me oportunity. At the beginning it was very early when he takes it but as training continues he do it later and later and this sometimes scary me. But he is very experienced and I believe taht he knows what he is doing to build my confidence and skills. Thanks to him, It is very difficult sometimes. :-) And all you guys who are teaching us to enjoy flying.
I was never an instructor, technically, but spent 35 years as captain on civilian transports. As such my philosophy was that I could only let the F/O go as far as I felt I could recover from. At that point his feelings or esteem were of no concern. It didn't happen very many times. It's a shame this happened. I feel for those left behind.
@@pumpkindog1 An ATP can give instruction to the FO. So although you may not have held a CFI, you were instructing.
I agree. The same can be said of civilian flight training...spins are no longer taught or required which I believe is a big mistake.
Thank you for the report Juan! Appreciate the reporting you do. This story was a close to home story for me as I live in Oklahoma City. I am currently working on my private pilot license a small 1.5 hour lesson has my brain clogged up. I can’t imagine starting at 3AM and going all day. I hate seeing the Air Force dumb doesn’t the training though. Thanks again!
Great report. Thanks, Juan. LOVE the piano cover of the BoC tune at the end! Perfect eulogy music for pilots.
Rip to our heroes - thanks juan, loving being a patron to the fine and dedicated work you do, if it wasnt for this video - i wouldnt have even known about these pilots sacrifice to our country, prayers for their families and all our servicemen in harms way.
Very interesting video, thanks for the great explanation of what happened in that incident. Also, you gave me a better understanding of the AF training program.
I was a T-38IP at Columbus AFB beginning in 1970, and a check pilot soon thereafter. When I think about the wisdom of removing formation landings from the syllabus, I recall an event that makes the point of keeping them. We had a four-ship formation flight, launched into questionable weather that deteriorated quickly near the end of our mission. Ops closed our runways and we were ordered to divert west to Memphis NAS. Not a great Ops call as a solid wall of thunderstorms was threatening Memphis and we were approaching minimum fuel. As we let down to Memphis NAS, we were advised by tower that a Naval aviator had just crashed on the runway and the runway was closed . Only option was to turn south towards Memphis International Airport. We advised the civilian tower we were a four-ship with minimum fuel, and requested an overhead pattern. The answer? No, due to other incoming traffic. Straight-in only, So our second element immediately slowed for separation and we landed both two-ships at the same time, one right after the other. Training prevented what could have been an unfortunate loss of aircraft.
Thanks Juan. Another very knowledgeable (and first hand) review and analysis of the facts from an accident report.
Class 72-06 at Moody. You are absolutely correct on my first takeoff. I did not catch up until 10,000 feet. Our washout rate was lower, but I remember discussing it with my primary instructor. I made it and eventually was an Aircraft Commander in a B52. Retired as an O5.
Thank you for explaining this mishap. I wanted to be a fighter pilot in the late 80's. I remember seeing the T-38's practice at march AFB in Moreno Valley and watching them peel to the left over the 215 fwy on final approach! What a sight to see.! RIP Lt Col John "Matt" Kinade and 2Lt. Travis B. Wilkie
Mover did a great explanation on this also RIP to all involved.
C.W "Mover" Lemoine for anyone wondering.
He did it better
Every video is an income, so every CZcams reports every event.
Iain ..Which is perfectly fine. That way we get everyone’s perspective. Some (well a lot more than some usually) are completely full of shit and know nothing and actually give misinformation. Guys like Juan and Mover almost always iron out the bullshit from most others and give you an EDUCATED and informed explanation, exactly like Juan does here. He actually flew these birds in the exact same maneuvers and didn’t just build a Testors model of a T-38 when he was 12 and call himself a Talon pilot and expert. Thanks for another great one Juan! Rest In Peace to our fellow aviators.
Great job of dissecting a very tragic chain of events. My prayers go out to their loved ones. Retired C-130 FE here really enjoy your analysis and your cool name😎 Fly Safe!
Sad outcome. I do appreciate your videos and the effort you make to get clear thoughts out.
I had the chance and pleasure to meet Matt on one of his fly-ins to castle AFB (now Atwater airport), was a great and humble aviator.
It's been a long time - 70-02 at Vance. I fondly remember our T-38 four ship flights but not two ship landings. Great video of a tragic event. Thanks.
I was in class 70-04 at Vance and I don’t remember two ship landings either, but I don’t remember much anymore.
Thanks for the excellent analysis. You answered a lot of my questions about this really sad and unfortunate event.
Thank you Juan for sharing your thoughts, on yet another tragic scenario.
My sincere condolences, thoughts and, Prayers to the families and friends of the two deceased Airmen.
I salute and, thank both of these heroes for their service.
May they Forever R.I.P.
STAN
I can imagine how hard looking right or left and still managing to fly straight is. In auto racing we are always taught to look where you want to be. If you look anywhere else you will instinctively drift that direction.
not only racing, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_fixation
So true. Same with dirt bikes. I remember as a kid my dad telling me, if you want to avoid a rock, look next to it, not at. You go where you look. However, I have forayed into DCS, and it really is different when flying in formation. I know, it's not real world experience, but the concept is there.
I heard that for bicycles. Their scan is very busy but NASCAR drivers manage to "formate" on other cars routinely at high speed, drafting behind and on the side. One could do it on a freeway, even, BRIEFLY and with no other cars around. Better yet, just imagine that as a thought experiment. Unlike you, a wingman doesn't have to worry about drifting onto a shoulder or into anything else.
You should not try it
Meh just drive an 18 wheeler for a few years. You use your peripheral vision more than where you look.
MOTO 809. That statement is so very true. Out of all of the racing and flying I’ve done, I’ve found it to be reality most apparently on a snowmobile in the backcountry (dirt bikes for sure, but snowmobiles take the cake in my experiences). There can be one tree on the whole mountain and you will run straight into it if you stare at it. It’s also how I get my OCD lawnmower lines in my grass. Pick a spot far down the runway and look straight at it lol.
Just observed a salute formation flyover the hospital for health care workers in Visalia by the California ANG. So much respect for those skilled F15 pilots. And thank-you health care people!
Thanks for taking the time to explain this unfortunate incident.
Juan a great job on explaining this unfortunate situation that lead to this accident.
So sad! An one of my favorite aircraft too! God Bless both instructor an student an theirs!
Condolence's to LT. Col Kinade's family and condolence's to 2ND LT. Wilkie's family.
I would not known about this tragedy but for Juan's channel.
My son was ATC on that fateful day. Thank you for such a wonderful explanation.
My sincere gratitude to all military personnel (past and present) for the sacrifices made by you and you're family. Tragic to have lost such a senior instructor and a gifted trainee. Split second decisions make or break us all.
Can't help but wonder what these two gentlemen would be doing today. Great information/analysis, thanks!
Thank you for your review of this accident. I have a few thoughts on the accident and your comments on the use of the rudder in the T-38. They are connected.
I was a T-38 IP (1500 IP hours in the T-38) at both Reece (UPT) and Randolph (PIT) in the early 70's. When i was instructing at Reece formation landings were introduced into the UPT syllabus and IPs had to qualify in them before instructing students. What we initially thought was going to be a very difficult maneuver became, if not routine, also not terrifying. LIke most maneuvers in high performance aircraft, the results are highly intolerant of momentary distractions, inattention to detail and ill-timed control inputs. The approach phase was nothing new since formation approaches were already a syllabus requirement. The transition to landing was the new part. Since we weren't required to maintain fingertip through the touchdown the transition to landing really became two airplanes landing at the same time in the center of their side of a 150 foot wide runway followed by individual aero braking on the roll out. That put 60-70 feet between aircraft during the touchdown phase.
First Point: In setting up for the approach 51-38, the T-38 document which specified requirements for each and every maneuver in the T-38 flying syllabus, the wingman was placed on the upwind wing for the formation approach and landing. Recognizing that there was not a large crosswind component from the description of this accident. it looks like this wingman was on the downwind wing. Weather vaning into the wind is always an issue in the landing phase. I recall many landings at Reece where high crosswind components were routine, when I had the stick (ailerons) full deflection into the wind and the rudder almost full opposite. You still had to fly the aircraft all the way down the runway until you pulled off at the end. In this accident the initial phase of the closure between #2 and #1 could have been a result of not controlling the weathervaning potential into the lead aircraft from being on the downwind side of the landing. During the initial movement a little left rudder might have stopped the drift into lead.
Second Point: The rudder is the last control surface to be lost as an aircraft transitions from fully controlled flight to an out-of-control situation. Yes, I too was instructed to "keep my feet on the floor" by most of the IPs I flew with in the T-38 when I was in UPT. My assigned IP, bless him, actually advocated a judicious use of the rudder and I began to use it just so, judiciously. It was very effective in fingertip to make small changes to your lateral spacing. At higher angles of attack (AOA) it was a highly effective, and probably the best control for rolling the aircraft. This became very obvious, and very important, when later in my career is was assigned as a F-4D IP at Homestead, FL. In the "hard wing D" which had no leading edge slats like the "softwing F-4E", use of aileron at high AOA would lead almost directly to a high speed departure from controlled flight which is a nice term for a "violent shuddering high speed snap roll" in the opposite direction to where you wanted to go. Use of the rudder at high AOA resulted in a very nice rolling movement in the direction you desired without the exciting dreaded "hardwing" departure. The rudder was also a very effective control for managing "nose position" one of the most critical requirements in an air-to-air engagement.
My first training the F-4 was in the E model or the "soft wing" version with leading edge slats. Interestingly, many of the IPs in my training squadron advocated minimal, if any, use of the rudder because it flew much like a T-38 at high AOA. I began using the rudder more and more and it paid off when I later became an IP in the hardwing D model.
Minimizing or eliminating use of the rudder in any aircraft is giving up not just one of the three control surfaces (the throttle is certainly a control, just not a surface) but giving up arguably the one that will be the last to go in a degenerating control situation.
Based on my experience as a T-38 and F-4 IP over the span of 17 years, my three year assignment as a headquarters STAN/EVAL flight examiner and my experience as the pilot member on a F-4G mid-air accident in northern Germany I respectfully submit that positioning the wingman on the up wind side of the formation and a judicious use of the rudder in this accident could have precluded #2's drift into lead, the resulting collision and the fatal result.
This by no means should be construed to denigrate the reputations of these two individuals. I have a fair number of squadron mates who are no longer with us as a result of aircraft accidents but this reply is submitted with the objective of preventing future accidents of a similar nature and to encourage pilots to:
1. Be prepared to use all of the controls available to them all the time
and
2. "Fly" the airplane all the way to the chocks.
Respectfully,
bk
Excellent video. Working as a crew chief at Wiliams AFB 1969-1971 I watched the student pilots coming through. In those days they started in Cessna 150's went to T-37 and finally the T-38 which I crewed. I believe the training period was 53 weeks.The instructor pilots were great, many View Nam vet pilots. Some times we would miss inform a student as to what a function of a minor part on the aircraft did. Of course they later figured it out but before I ever did that I had asked permission of the Instructor. We knew or at least I did, how stressed some of these students were. But a lot of humor could usually be found even among then. Loved that job!
Thank you for the great coverage, as always. 🌿
While I learned some interesting fact and information on my recent CFI renewal, I feel that the lessons and principles learned and reviewed are far deeper and impactful when I watch these videos on this channel. Thank you.
As I watch I cringe at how, when I was instructing long ago, what I thought was adequate in terms of briefing, esp before takeoff, was really inadequate. Scary now.
Excellent analysis and explanation. As a former T-38 IP in the mid 80's (including a tour at ENJJPT), I made numerous wing landings with students. Although they are challenging, they are not as difficult as when students are first learning how to land the T38 on their first several single ship training rides. The toughest call any IP has to make is clearing students for their first solo ride. Well, maybe busting a student (failing grade) on a lesson is pleasant either. As far as continuing having wing landings in the program, I'd say it depends on whether these wing landings are an important part of the operational fighter communities needs. If they are used in operational squadrons then they need to keep them in the program.
They aren't.
May I ask when you flew at Sheppard (ENJJPT)? I was there 82/85 as a T37 IP.
Juan, thanks for that really clear and well informed report. I am really sorry to hear about this accident.
Excellent analysis (as well as choice of musical accompaniment). I always enjoy your educated perspective. Thank you very much.
Hey Juan just wanted to say we are still instructing formation approaches in fighters but not the takeoff or landing portion. There just aren’t that many cases where you need to actually touch down or takeoff on the wing compared to the risk it exposes. Leading someone back to short final with an emergency procedure meets the need in a vast majority of cases.
That makes sense. Thanks for letting us know. I would not know, but it doesn't seem like formation landings and takeoffs would be very common.
Don Moore that’s right. Old school teaching was you might need to take off in formation and immediately transition to formation flying in the weather. Same goes for flying a formation approach to land with bad weather. New school is that we can use fighter radar for routine departures and recoveries to maintain separation, and in most cases if an emergency precludes radar for recovery then a single ship approach is less risky. There are very few times you would have an emergency that would preclude just doing a single ship recovery or a formation approach to 300-500 feet then dropping off the bad aircraft for a single ship landing. It isn’t that the tasks are inherently too hard, they are just unnecessary risk that takes away from other more combat related tasks we can instruct.
@@Phaeton84 At Randolph we are still doing formation take off and landings at the 435th and 560th.
Sir. At what point should the student have aborted the formation? It seems that his drifting meant he lost the visual on the lead. If he was looking at the landing why would he have been drifting to the left? Something isn't right with the reported data, in my opinion. Good luck and fly fast!
Could you please explain why formation flying is used? As a non pilot, it is not obvious to me.
The hardest thing an instructor has to learn is when to take over control from the student. You have to let the student learn from his/her mistakes but you can’t let them get into a situation the will become too dangerous. This is especially true when you have a student who is not doing well as the IP taking over control may end up being the last bad mark resulting in washout.
Ik found that out when my Dallas Cowboys rekrute got me in an inverted spin in the T37. Ik came close to choking him tot save us because het woud not relenquish controls. My overall best student was Barry Cornish a really Nice determined Young man. Safe thinking not someone posedded with ego.
Barry R Cornish.? Sheppard AFB 1990 to 1992
An IP should never forget that students will try to kill you.
Thank you for using the props to explain the maneuvers. Very helpful in understanding the case.
A tragic event that is clearly hard to talk about. Thank you for sharing this report and explaining the events as they happened. Our thoughts are with those who lost their loved ones.
I miss the sonic booms. I lived 45 miles from Reese AFB and we heard them a lot. I also lived 5 miles from Vance, and 15 miles from Dobbins AFB/NAS Atlanta. I love jets, and military planes.
I lived 50 mile from Offutt Air Force base near Omaha. The summer after they got B-58 'Hustler' bombers, they ran training runs over Lincoln where I lived at the time. Every morning. At 7:00am. Like clockwork. I was lying on my bed one morning playing with our new kitten at 7 o'clock. BOOM! The kitten turned into a ball of fur that shot straight up into the air and came down with all 20 of it's claws fully extended, used my arms for traction, and shot out of the room. I got up and walked to the bathroom to run cold water over my arms to stop the bleeding. About an hour later we found the kitten under the couch in the living room. About 2 hours later, the kitten finally came out from under the couch. 25 years later you could still see some of the scars on my arms. As far as i know, I was the only casualty resulting from those supersonic training runs. I don't miss sonic booms at all. Still love aviation though.
I served at Reese and we lost a T-38 in 1976.
I lived at the end of the runway for Dobbins. I remember the first time a C5B went over the building. I lived on the top floor and about crapped myself. First time seeing a C5, much less the under carriage at less than 100 feet! :D
I graduated from Reese in 1982. I ended up flying A7s and F16s. I enjoyed my time at Lubbock.
We got to where we could tell which plane was flying over by the sound of their engines.
Good explanation of a tragic loss. RIP LT Wilkie and LTC Kincade.
I was but a humble Jet Engine Mech on F15s, 1980-1983. Been a civilian for 38 years now. But I was glad to hear your opinion on the need to not dumb down the flight training requirements after a tragedy like this. That was my exact instinct as I was listening to you tell the story.
Prayers for the pilots' loved ones.
Expertly explained as usual. Thanks Juan.
I graduated from Vance in class 72-08 and went on to fly the C-130 in the Southeast Asian wargames. I flew the T-38A at Laughlin AFB, TX from 1976 - 1980. I had my share of letting a student go to far and thank God I'm still alive. The formation landing will return to the syllabus as soon as a crew has to eject from a survivable aircraft due to a pitot system failure. In the period 1960 to 1980 we began flying to the maximum extent under IFR control. A VFR navigation mission was added when First Assignment Instructor Pilots were unable to enter a traffic pattern at a strange airport without scrambling busy civil traffic at nearby civil airports.
I agree, pilot training is one of the most advanced skills in the world. To be the best you have to train with the best. Offering these classes and training at a lower level of excellence than previously required, is a problem. It shows to me just how hardcore men where, such as yourself and my father. You men just did it. If that's what was required, you just did it. Thank you for your insight and video. And sorry about your pilot friend and student. Truly a loss for family and friends and the academy.
Juan best by far at laying it all out completely.
Tragic losses. So sad.
Thanks for making sense of what happened.
Take care. ❤️👍
Great discussion and analysis, Juan, as usual. I grad from CBM in class 91-02 and spent a total of 17 years as a UPT/SUPT instructor throughout my active and reserve career. Six years in the T-38. (Flew C-141s, too.) The fact is, outside of the training environment, the Air Force does not do wing landings anymore (they barely do fingertip formation - except to look good up initial during RTB). I hate changes to our beloved syllabus as much as you do, especially for political reasons, but changes are probably warranted. (BTW, last I knew, the T-38 approach speed with flaps is 155+gas. And I think it’s even faster now because the ‘C model is heavier.) Keep up the good work.
Ken, we were IPs in Taurus Flt for a while, I hope you're doing fine.
Art Ramirez
My dad graduated Vance in 1952 - apparently they required them to fly the T-33 which was his favorite as he wanted to go into fighters. Of course his evaluation put him in bombers instead.
Thank you, Juan for the detailed explanation of what happened. It couldn't have been easy for you to do considering your own air force background, including Mogadishu.
Take care, Juan and Browne family!
Juan,I am a 320 driver but I really enjoyed the video and all the effort you put to make it easy and plain.
Our condolences to the families of these brave service men of our military.
Fellow Williams grad, and made many a formation landing in the T38. Always amazed at how safe we were despite the rather dangerous maneuvers we performed. However, from what I learned formation landings are rarely done in the CAF. Pulling this maneuver out of the syllabus seems a good call.
Disagree. The purpose of every flight in the T-38 syllabus is to check or train the student in that particular phase of operational flight. Prior to the advent of the “cargo/fighter tracks”, every UPT student had to master every challenge of the T-38. Thousands tried and thousands did it. And that included formation landings. Why? It requires the student to rely on his ability to fly formation like his life depends on it; because it may some day when he’s in the weather and loses all instruments. I understand that it’s now required only for the fighter/bomber track, but it’s still there and needs to be demonstrated and mastered. It’s just another way to separate those who can’t. Better here in training than in operations.
And my comment says nothing about this accident. My sympathies and prayers are with the families of the deceased.
@@maxcorder2211 actually it is no longer required by the CAF, so AETC dropped the requirement
@@bombsaway6340 Ok. Thanks.
Great insight Juan, why I love your channel.
thanks,Juan. always interesting to hear your expert take on all things aviation. so sad....❤️❤️❤️
May the family and friends find comfort in the Lord. Me and my twin brother graduated Williams AFB Class 72-03. I went to PIT at Randolph AFB, then served 3 years at Williams as a T-37 IP. My brother went to B-52's. I detected deep emotions as you explained the incident. The 'White Rocket' was not forgiving; but was an awesome aircraft! I was assigned to B-52's and instructed for 16+ years out of 20 (2 tours at Castle AFB). The B-52 is also an awesome airplane. Instructing Air Refueling for 20 minutes to pass a check ride is extremely challenging. The largest fuel transfer I have received is 100,000# of JP-4 in one continuous contact, out of Mildenhal, England (Air Fete '86). God's Speed!
Great reporting once again. I ask myself, what did we do and what did we believe before you came along. I would answer that question but Pete might be watching.
Thanks again
WHOA, you mentioned you didn’t want to show your age then mention the C141! Had the pleasure of experiencing a tactical landing fully loaded, that bird can work! Thanks for the content, really enjoying your channel.
So sad. Thanks for sharing Juan. My condolences to all affected.
I was shocked to hear the tactical air force no longer does wing landings. In fighters about the only time you ever fly in finger tip is on takeoff and coming up initial or penetrating weather. Otherwise you are in route position or some sort of tactical formation to enhance mutual support, look out and safety. I liked to burn a little gas now and then doing some lazy eights in fingertip. It really blew off the cob webs flying large pitch and bank angles with the wingtip in the star.
Accidents are horrible things anyway and fatalities make it much much worse. ATC used to drop a T-38 every few months and sometimes weeks in the 70s, but the sortie rates command wide were much much higher back then. As an instructor in the T-38, and I did it for a long time, the closer you are to the ground or to another airplane the closer your hands have to be to the stick and throttles. In the pattern my hand formed a halo about six inches across around the stick whenever we were below 1000 feet or so. You never bumped the stick or allowed it to bump you, but when your personal limits were exceeded you seized control while calmly saying that you had control of the aircraft and flew it out off the issue while explaining what went wrong. I think the IP here got very surprised where time is measured in mili-seconds. My sincere condolences to the families of the student and the instructor. They lost their lives in service to their country and we should be forever mindful and thankful that men like them step up and serve.
They also are now flying combat missions with nobody in the plane. It's a different world than when you and I flew this jet. Good comments about guarding the stick and throttles.
Juan, thank you for your dedication and accuracy. It is such a tragedy to lose two skilled pilots.
Thank you for this video Juan.🎸
Another terrific video, you always get the viewers in the front seat...thanks
Terrible loss of life, very sad! When you said “dumbing down” the training, it struck a cord with me. Taking out a very difficult part of the training doesn’t make sense. In an emergency some fighter pilot somewhere, sometime, may be required to make a formation landing. Without the training, it could be fatal. I think top military people are scared of making a wrong decision, and the public reaction to that decision. The firing of the Captain of the Theodore Roosevelt and the followup demonstrates that well. Thanks for the excellent video, Juan.
CrazyPetez--when has there ever been a situation that required a tight formation landing?
@@tenpiloto If you are flying in IMC with instrument issues you can go to a welded wing and stay on the lead to find your way home all the way down to the landing if necessary.
@@tenpiloto Did it all the time in Europe when recovering, wx down and ATC saturated.
Formation approaches are different than formation landings. There's no need for a formation landing and it's never actually done anymore. It's an outdated practice and an unnecessary risk.
So have the lead aircraft go around in the flare or once visual
The T-38 looks like it was built yesterday and goes Mach 1 while sitting on the ramp.
Definitely a great looking aircraft. Among the best.
In USAF Pilot Training, the T-37 taught us how to fly. The T-38 taught us how to think fast!
Once outside the pilot training environment, the T-38 "White Rocket" was a BLAST to fly! I had the privilege of flying 450+ hours " rolling-down-my-socks" in it and wouldn't trade one tenth of an hour in it for anything! Man, I miss that jet!
My deepest condolances to the friends & loved ones of those we lost in this tragedy.
Nice analysis Juan, thanks!
Cheers,
Lt Col Jet
Willy, 78-01
The '38 was the seed aircraft for the F-20, F-17 prototype, and the F/A-18 back at the old Northrup Corp.
@@jetdriver1jetdriver194 You are right on! I was lucky to get around 700 hours in the T-38. Willy, 80-05
@@DennisWWhipple It's such a fun ride.
Great analysis. I really appreciate your videos!
Thanks, Juan. Tough to report. Condolences to theirs, for whom we mourn, all who’ve been there, all who erred, but were spared, to salute those who, as these two got askew of that instant, as we all knew, all who plied the art, survived. Agape. Romain: Willie, 62-F
Juan, you mentioned that that you were at Williams AFB in the late 80's. I was a crew chief in the 425 TFTS from 78 to 80. I saw several aircraft accidents while I was there.
These T-38's have my favorite color scheme/livery.
I was stationed at Williams AFB from Feb of"66" until Oct of "67" . I was a jet mech. the T-38. I transitioned to F-4's when I went to Viet Nam. I 'm 76 now and to this day Williams a T-38's have a special place in my heart! Fly On!
Outstanding report Juan.
Col. Kinade, Lt Wilkie, God Bless you for your sacrifice to keep our country free. RIP
When I was flying with VX-5 at the Naval Test Center at China Lake we worked out an exchange program with the pilots at Edwards AFB for some of us to get a fam flight in a T-38 Talon while some of them came up and checked out the TA-4 Skyhawk. You are absolutely correct. That T-38 was a gem of an aircraft--powerful and delightfully sensitive in roll.
As for the dropping formation landings from the training regimen, I learned to do it, too, and I'm all for retaining a demanding syllabus but what is the point of training to proficiency on a risky maneuver they will never execute operationally? This student's weakness was formation flying, which involves a mastery of spacial perspective and distance using an active outside scan. He was weak on the latter two points which repeatedly saw him drifting too far from the lead plane. (Leading to panic with imprudent and excessive rudder input when he found himself too close the runway edge, triggering the accident sequence.)
A much better exercise for developing a proper formation sight picture, scan, and fine muscle control is formation acrobatics. Not quite as close as the Thunderbirds, but almost, doing wingovers and barrel rolls. It's challenging, hard work, and stressful but teaches flying skills that are the bread and butter of fighter pilots, whether flying formation in tight for the break or in IFR conditions, 400' apart in loose deuce, or 1/2 mi in combat spread. That's stuff you do all the time. Nobody lands in formation anymore unless they're a flight demonstration team. It was an archaic requirement.
As usual, I learned a lot from your enthusiasm for flight, aircraft and the T38 in particular. Agree with other commenters here, what a sad outcome for this training flight. Thank you for your report.
THANKS FOR THE UPDATE JUAN , QUITE INFORMATIVE .
first great channel love the content
was am air traffic controller supervisor, the hardest job I ever had was certification of new controllers.... you had to let them get into trouble to see if they could First see that they screwed up and Secondly figure out to correct the mess. I was usually about six or seven steps ahead of them so could clean up an error, but it was unnerving. After a while I just accepted if they do not kill some one then it was a success
Love the review. I was a USAF Air Traffic Controller 82-91 last assignment was KMER California. Worked Eiffel Center Germany 83 to 86
Although we’re talking more Top Gun style, I Love the Jurassic park props in the background!
always enjoy hearing your own insights and experiences as they relate to the stories you cover.
"Flight instruction for teenagers is fundamentally different than for adults. With adults, the instructor needs to always wear sunglasses so the student can't see where the instructor is looking. The instructor also needs to sweat only on the right side of the face and not twitch when trying to avoid grabbing the flight controls." F Abrams, Chief Flight Instructor, San Jose International, Ca. 1990.
?? I don't understand the joke, did anybody else?
i dont get it either, what is the difference for teenagers? did he mean to say for teenagers the instructor needs to only sweat on the right side of the face and to not twitch when trying to avoid grabbing flight controls? im confused
@@dominicklittle9828 just slow
I must agree with Juan.
It does sound somewhat absurd that we are afraid someone might get hurt in fighter pilot training.
Best in the world fighter pilot training.. don't change it.
Formation landing is an antiquated practice though. It's not something that's ever actually done anymore during service flights.
You bet!
@@deathk26 This is the first form landing accident I have ever heard about in my 40+ yrs since graduating.
Thanks again I always look forward to hearing your comments on these accidents
Thank-you Juan, I agree with your final assessment. It is dangerous training, but it produces the best pilots in the world.