Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger w/ Gary Michuta | Pints with Aquinas Episode
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- Ever wonder why Catholic Bibles are bigger than Protestant Bibles?
In this new episode of Pints with Aquinas, I interview a genuine expert on the history of the canon of Scripture, Gary Michuta.
We talk about issues like:
• What is the “Deuterocanon” and why do Protestants call it “apocrypha”
• How did Martin Luther justify removing seven books from the Old Testament
• Why St. Jerome rejected the Deuterocanon (and why you shouldn’t)
• What impact did the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls have on this question of the canon of Scripture?
• Are there any New Testament “proofs” for the Deuterocanon
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I've read your book on the catholic canon and it was so instrumental in helping me to better understand the process of Christianity! Thank you for doing the hard work to bring this stuff to light Gary
I want to watch this video 30 times over. Man I'm glad I found this channel. This channel, and fr. (the cool priest you've had on here, the priest on the channel ascension), has literally brought me back to faith. I was questioning so much, had sooo many questions, your channel is answering all of them. And what's crazy is that these are not old videos, these are newer videos that are literally following my questions. Thank you so much, for your channel, your interviews, your recommendations, everything.
@YAJUN YUAN LP
Welcome home!
I would like to recommend a book on the history of the Bible which I have found very informative and readable. It is 'Where We Got The Bible Our Debt To The Catholic Church' by Henry G. Graham. It was first published in 1911 but reprinted by Catholic Answers in 1997. Graham was brought up in the Calvinistic Scottish Kirk and became a Calvinistic minister in the Kirk.
The book also contains an account of his conversion story entitled 'From the Kirk to the Catholic Church'. I am sure his story resounds with Protestant ministers who have converted to the true faith.
Thank you for your wonderful discussions.
Thank you Matt for bringing on different guests and using YT to help teach and let us learn.
Gary is awesome! Met him at a Fatima event here in Michigan a few years ago. Invited me to present my conversion story at his Church.
His show Hands on Apologetics on virgin most powerful radio is very good as well.
God bless you all Jesus Loves you and The Blessed Mother too
Jesus my Salvation ?
A Bible is the Bible. There is no difference.
Really enjoyed this show. Gary is always a must watch guy.
Thanks, Matt and Gary! Awesome program! I thought I knew a thing or two on this subject and boy, did I get schooled...
Yes St. Jerome did not initially regard the deutero-canon as inspired but when the Church council declared them as scripture, what did he do?
He did not sulk, go on a rant, started his own church and named it after himself.
Instead, he humbly accepted the Church's collective decision over his individual opinion and in fact, at a later time, even went on to defend the 7 books.
That's one of the reasons why he is a saint!
So informative and what a kind, lovely man! Thank you.
Such a great episode!
That was a great video! As a history teacher it made me so hungry for more. Looks like I'm about to fill up the 'ol home library!
Very interesting and Gary was a great, engaging guest :)
Great show - great objections you threw at him Matt, and Gary seemed to be on top of things
This was excellent, I took lots of notes and will definitely watch the debate with Dr James White
I finally saw the debate between Mr. Machuta and Dr. White. Dr. White was fidgeting around in the first round of cross-examination. Indeed, Dr. White was perturbed with Mr. Machuta's questions. But both gentlemen did excellent in the debate.
This guy is awesome!
Bro.. Can you give Indonesia subtitles. It will help Indonesian Catholic a lot
You will have to get someone to translate it for him as I dont think he knows Indonesian. And then ask him :/
There is a letter from Jerome to Pope Damasus regarding his submission to the Pope's authority. That is why he redid his Vulgate based on the Septuagint.
Thank you.
The interesting thing is that this particular debate it almost exclusively an American question. Protestantism is almost extinct outside of America, and all Catholics and Orthodox accept the deuterocanon.
you are very wrong. Even un Russian Orthodox Church many priests are infected by Protestantism and think, that deuterocanonical books are aporcrypha and call them "uncanonical"
WOW ! What planet are you from !🤣🤣
Im late to the debate but in Brazil it’s still a nightmare.
In Honduras this is also an issue. Though evangelicals don't agree with each other you have many of them that believe Catholics added books and they have the original Bible.
If only every protestant watched this video. 1 hour to save their soul - the cost is minimal, in my opinion ahahah. Though, on a serious note, I really do appreciate Gary's work and his loving and cherishable attitude towards educating not only protestants, but me, especially. Really grateful to him!
you're saying that the 66 books in the current protestant book isn't enough to lead to salvation and that the deuterocanon is required for salvation? that's going to be a hard task and I'm not a protestant
@@tgshark1 That is what you got out of what he said?? No, he was talking about how Gary Michuta was making the rock solid case that there shouldn’t be a Bible without the Deuterocanonical text.
@@RumorHazi yes...but it's a silly argument considering the number 1 reason they were taken out of the KJB at the Cambrige council is because none of them are apostolic...there are other numerous reasons why but that one is major.
@@tgshark1 So when Luther removed them from the Canon (where they had been, officially, since the Council of Rome in 382 AD) you think he was right? Would you have agreed with him that James, Jude, Hebrews and Revelation should have been gone too?
The Calvinism-curious Patriarch that Mr. Michuta references was the Ecumenical Patriarch Cyril Lucaris
@YAJUN YUAN Are you sure you're replying to the right comment?
I didn't mention anything about Daniel.
I read Gary's book on the theme and it was fascinating and strengthened my resolve to talk about the matter publicly with my protestant brethren in the Lord. May I ask a question though ahead of time? What does Gary honestly think about the response to his book released in 2019 titled, "Why Protestant Bibles is smaller" by Steve Christie? Thanks in advance! 😇
I've been in recent contact with Gary to discuss Steve Christie's book. The book is not a response to Gary's book but rather a response to a point made by Trent Horn on a Catholic Answers live show about the canon. The biggest problem with Why Protestant Bibles are Smaller is that the source reliability is incredibly poor - lots of secondary sources and council decrees that directly contradict arguments made in the book. If you don't already own it, have a look on the Google Books preview and look up the footnotes, you'll see what I mean.
Great
Thank God for the Catholic Church, which was the early church established through the Apostles. Keeper of the word until it was written down and canonized by the Church In the book called the Bible, now used by Christians the world over.
Man, I love listening to proper villains. Oh, yeah. 2 Chronicles is the result of a Medieval printing convention taking from a Hebrew text known as the BabaBathra. What a professional. Well done, sir. Just has that stuff in his head. Amazing
Great Video. Ο Θεός να ευλογεί.
Enjoyed watching this. I felt that he was stretching a bit when he tried to conjure away the Rabbinic argument.
I never understood that argument. There were many Jewish sects back then. How do you chose the correct OT Canon from the ancient Jewish peoples?
@@nosuchthing8 You choose the one Jesus, Paul, and other Pharisees chose.
@@BrandonCSullivan we don't know the one Jesus chose.
But Jesus DID choose Peter as his successor as we can see in Mathew.
Jesus didn't chose Luther anywhere in the Bible.
So I'm going with the person Jesus chose. You can go with the one he did not chose, i.e. Luther.
@@nosuchthing8 ok
@@BrandonCSullivan Jesus chose the Septuagint. That’s why when he quotes from the Old Testament, 90% of the time he quotes from the Septuagint, which by the way, included the Deuterocanonical Canon.
Please interview Joseph Sciambra
Why would the Septuagint be so doubted for authority? Was it not assembled with the agreement of a college of authoritative Jewish experts at the time? Would there not be other reasons for the later rabbinic truncation of the old testament ?
There is actually a book by S Douglas Woodward called "Rebooting the Bible" that discusses many of these same topics and that does look at why the "Jewish Experts" purposefully changed certain things (including replacing the old Septuagint) because the Church was growing so fast and they thought Christianity might take over the Jewish Religion.
Rabbinic Jews reject Jesus. The book of Wisdom has strong prophesies proving Jesus as the messiah. Also Ethiopian Orthodox Jews have different books than Rabbitic
I just want to say that Gary has a cool sounding last name. I wish my last name was as cool as his lol
that's hispanic jerry/gary from parks and rec
32:00 minute mark. Wow. Now that’s scripture.
Hebrews: I always took that to refer to people like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. The first two would apply, and the third could be inferred.
Aquinas quotes the deuterocanon pretty regularly. Something I found interesting is that in: aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q10.A6.Obj1 he quotes from the book of Esdras and makes it clear that its an apocryphal (apocryphis) book.
@Prasanth Thomas technically the ecumenical council Nicea II accepted the Catholic canon and it’s still binding to Orthodox. But I’m practice they sometimes add a few extra.
Interestingly when the books and foot note references in old Protestant Bibles were removed in the early 19th century there was Opposition by some ministers. Maybe they weren’t used to confirm doctrine but they were read and referenced .The Germans I’m told never took them out
I understand that in recent reprints of the King James they have been restored. There is some great writings and if nothing else it clarifies some of the thoughts of New Testament writers.
Taking out 400 years of history is never a good thing as though we went from 400BC to 0 with no significant events happening .
That’s insane from a historical prospective. Those were some turbulent years that shaped the world Jesus was born into .m
Yeah, I’m a traditional Anglican who reads these books every year along with the proto-canonical OT books. I consider them to be an important subset of the historic Christian Bible, which, if perhaps not having the same authority as the proto-canonical Scriptures, at the very least is useful for edification and also as secondary support and explication of doctrine found in the proto-canon. That’s the way it was used in the Anglican formularies (39 Articles, Books of Homilies).
At the moment there are two new paper books "Why catholic bibles are bigger" available on Amazon in Germany and the cheapest ist 99 Euro, you won't believe it (Amazon.de). It is not possible to buy a cheaper paper-book here. I was lucky to get one of the last two remaining used ones for a cheaper price a few days ago. 😅
Hi Matt . I suspect after you watch his debate with James White that you will shy away from posting it . It would be great if you did though as the content is well presented ! Guess we`ll see !
I would love to watch James White but I simply CAN’T. He is snarky, rude, abusive and not open to truth even when it slaps him in the face like a salmon.
@@RumorHazi Fair enough but it's an important issue to address and ponder . Many many other scholars say the same thing ,it's not a James White thing . The subject was covered well though in this debate . Peace!
You can identify any song by letting you iPhone listen to it.
Or android
This is perhaps the least convincing argument ever, but I must say I find fitting the fact that the number “66” is in a symbolic sense “incomplete, incomplete,” while 73 is “complete, complete.”
@Evy Lois Johnson
Evy,
Actually,
73 is: "Perfectly complete".
66 is "Imperfect, imperfect".
NOTE:
Since there are 2 number 6, here are the implications:
The number 2 implies a division or a separation.
From the beginning of Creation the number 2 is seen in the scriptures.
▪︎On the second day of Creation, God divided the waters: earthly waters and heavenly waters. ▪︎Throughout the Bible, we see the duality of two things being opposite and at no times can these two things be both at the same time: •Light and darkness
•Good and evil
•Heaven and hell
•The saved and unsaved
God bless.
@@JesusmySalvation
You must stop believing in fantasy. It warps your thinking.
I suggest you "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".
May God bless your discernment.
@@JesusmySalvation
Warped!
Being an accusatory fanatic will not take you to Heaven.
Better stick to fixing your own personal problems.
I must remind you, when you begin accusing others you are cooperating with the enemy of God, Satan; otherwise known as "the accuser".
Stick to your own well known sins and fix them.
Just a friendly advise.
Jesus my Salvation , I think you are just misunderstanding the Catechism and taking a quotation by St. Athanasius out of context. The catechism firmly condemns polytheism. Paragraph 460 begins with a quote from 2 Peter 1:4 which states that part of our salvation in Christ involves us becoming “partakers in the divine nature.” We are to become divinized, but that does not mean we become divine. As mankind was created in the image and likeness of God, we are redeemed into a perfected image and likeness of him. No, we do not become gods in the sense that we are omniscient, omnipotent, etc. but rather in that we are perfect and God is perfect. For a more thorough explanation, I suggest this article: www.catholic.com/qa/what-so-that-we-might-become-god-means.
Jesus my Salvation I just looked up Daniel 9:26 and it doesn’t contain the words Rome or Antichrist, nor does it appear to be speaking of the end times in any way. Perhaps the reference is incorrect? Could you provide me with a quote of the verse you are thinking of?
Increasingly wondering why the Orthodox Bible has more books than the Catholic one... still seeking an answer for this.
nice hand logo
Canon is more of a Roman thing than Greek.
The Latin’s cut off a few books of late add to the Septuagint which is not as much a canon as a body of Greek scripture as specious or of very late dates ie post Incarnation.
The Eastern Fathers pretty much brought the canon accepted in the West as they really had no canon .
Remember The Eastern fathers didn’t really accept The Apocalypse ( Revelation) it was argued for and ultimately accepted through the efforts of St Augustine.
I’ve been confronted by our Christian brothers and sisters that the Dead Sea scrolls have been found to be fakes is that true ?
I'm pretty sure the museum curators and archeological and theological scholars have defended their authenticity reliably.
No
I attend a "protestant" church, but I hold to the fullest of the Eastern Orthodox bibles (Georgian). My main bible is the old KJV which includes:
1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Additions to Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, Prayer of Azariah (Song of the three Children), Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, 1 Maccabees, and 2 Maccabees.
I also separately have 3 & 4 Maccabees, 1 Enoch, Dominos, Psalm 151, Odes (which includes the epistle of Jeremy), and Book of Jubilees.
> <
"Gather ye together all the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost."
John6:12
Jeremiah 36,4 says Baruch is scripture :)
Luther was the first cancel culture star
I see your sentiments however Luther is repeating Marcellina's heresy of removing books of the Bible.
I found this out quite recently. : )
@@AJKPenguin indeed
@@AJKPenguin hey, can you point me towards your reference? Hopefully you have a CZcams or audio podcast. I couldn't take another book just yet as I have at least 8 or 9 on my yet " to read" list. 😏
10:00
The Orthodox accept 3 and 4 Maccabees as canonical.
to answer your question hames im not going to answer your question
This episode is brilliant and a great portion of meat and 3 veg. : )
LOL bloody Orthodox not defining stuff. 57:04
Hm! I don't believe that! I'm an Orthodox and it's not the first time I see Catholics misrepresent our denomination...
@@memememememe515 I guess we many times misrepresent each other... Maybe he tried to joke about that some of our differencies come from our tendency to define to many things (something I think we owe to our Protestant brothers and sisters)
@Prasanth Thomas I was not even thinking at the Council of Trent... You should know what I was thinking before making an assumption...
@Prasanth Thomas And I don't care about the Council of Trent and what they discussed there... That's my last problem now...
@Prasanth Thomas Dude! Give me a break with this! My problem with Catholics go far than this...
31:11 Come on !! No we dont Just only accept the first five books.
Saddoqim were ones who layed the scriptures up in the temple. If Jesus reproches the Pharisees of making other things too much the same as the scriptures, why have you no instance when he rebuked the Sadducees of not accepting any scriptures they should be.
We accept them. Today, Sadducees are the named Caraite Jews.
The only reference you hace of Saddoqim only accepting the first five books is Origen of Alexandria. And if everything he says is true, guess what else is.
I`m not a theologian but I love Jesus ! I can`t seem to find a single quote from Jesus regarding the deuterocanonical books! I can`t find a single quote from the Old testament prophets regarding the
deuterocanonical books ! I can`t find a single quote in the new testament regarding the deuterocanonical books. The Jews never accepted the deuterocanonical books as they were never included in the Temple behind the veil. Isn`t this of huge importance ? After all ,weren`t the oracles of God delivered to them first ? So shouldn`t they know ?. Incidentally I`m not a flag waving Protestant and Calvin and Luther et al are NOT my heroes.
Anybody willing to give a response ?
OK ,so no one in the whole world is willing to engage this question sensibly! I`ll take that as affirmation that we have a BIG problem Houston. I`ve finally made an impact !!
Or that a random comment in a sea of them is left to be taken by the tide like the arrogant sailor thinking he was better than he was.
Please remember you're on the internet and not yelling in a church or scholarly cloister. To be fair, if you blew that much hot air in either, they'd probably ask you to leave as well.
Any chance of a response to the specific points I raised as they are valid questions ? Anybody ?
@@rwmack3523 Hi ! You`re waxing lyrical to be sure , I`m envious at your poetic metaphors but please address the questions I raised . Anybody in Christendom or is it an awkward issue ? I totally understand ! Regards
8:19 This is the problem with Big C, Roman Catholicism. There is only one church of Christ and it is not marked by region, canon, or dogmatism. Christ is all in all, the king of the Earth, and his primacy is all that matters.
This sounds more like a problem with everyone else
catholic bibles are larger, because they clearly accepted books of apocrypha mainly not written by prophets (o.t. books were written mainly by prophets), since there were no prophets from about 400 b.c. until Jesus.
Catholic bibles are thicker. Is that why you don't place bibles in the pews???
Has anyone actually READ the Deuter books? Such as "Tobit" and "Bel and the Dragon"?
Folks, these books are FICTION!
Yes, I have
I see them as true, what are your objections to their truth.
@@stephenvandehey5233 In "The Book of Tobit", Tobias is commanded by the angel Raphael to burn fish entrails to imprison demons, an also uses fish entrails over Tobias' fathers eyes so they would be healed - per the direction of the angel Raphael.
In "Bel and the Dragon", the prophet Daniel gave cakes to this living Dragon and the Dragon burst open, killing the Dragon.
Do you believe these to be historically true, in time - these stories really did take place - or do you believe these works to be Fiction?
I'm not an expert, but I've always heard that Tobit was a kind of Sapiential book, like Job and Jonah... That story of Daniel isn't in my Catholic Bible... The book ends in chapter 14
@Chuck M I'm sorry. Both Bell and the dragon do appear in Daniel's book, but they're different stories. Bell is clearly an invented clay idol. The dragon could be any beast I guess. Would you dismiss the Genesis because of the giants?
I’ve been confronted by our Christian brothers and sisters that the Dead Sea scrolls have been found to be fakes is that true ?
Not fakes..Just not considered part of the cannon
No
I would bet these same Christians also claim the Didache, the letters of St. Ignatius, and Clement of Rome are fake as well.