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Is Violence In the Name of the Church Forbidden in Catholicism? (Fifth of Five Conversations)
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2021
- This is a VERY tough question to work through, and I so appreciate Dr. Holmes' willingness to discuss it. I know it's a question outsiders wonder about, and it's a question that gets us toward a better understanding of Catholic theological assumptions regarding church and state in general. Props to Dr. Holmes for his thoughtfulness and grace.
This is PART FIVE of a FIVE PART series of conversations
Here are links to all five parts of this series:
Part 1 (Where we compare notes about big picture similarities and differences between Protestants and Catholics) - • A Protestant Talks Wit...
Part 2 (Where I ask if Catholics believe Protestants are Christians) - • Are Protestants Christ...
Part 3 (Where I ask about Catholic beliefs about Mary) - • A Protestant Asks a Ca...
Part 4 - (Where I ask about praying to saints) - • Praying to the Saints?...
Part 5 - (Where I ask about violence in the name of the church) - • Is Violence In the Nam...
a Catholic and a Protestant walk into a bar... and have a genuinely good conversation!
After all these months they haven’t eaten! 😂😂😂👍
"I never discuss anything except politics and religion. There is nothing else to discuss." - G.K. Chesterton
When this series started, I was a Protestant. Now I’m Catholic and have a child named after a saint
Welcome home! Glory to God!
lol !
Ave Maria
Welcome Home . Peace be with you
I guess you had your God moment. God bless you Big Time.
"Not at one point have you made me feel like I'm your enemy... That's so enjoyable because I just want to know". This exact moment, right here. That moment when you talk about something gracefully that the rest of the world is screaming their heads off about. That moment of two people giving each other the benefit of the doubt and talking about a deep issue. I agree with the smile they both had on their faces at that moment. It really does feel good. To have a genuine discussion instead of just wailing on each other with the logs sticking out of our eyes. Needs to happen more often so thank you Matt.
Props to Jeremy on this one. He set and maintained a great tone throughout. He's a fantastic thinker and a great guy.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH I agree, he seems like a great guy to have this type of conversation with. I hope you have a lot more of this style discussion. It's probably a LOT more work doing this type of video (you know, un-waffle-fry-ing and wrangling the comments), so thanks for that. Oh, and thank your mom for all of the likes on my comment. That was nice of her.
Even though he did it , I feel like Matt was poking even though it was sugar-coated. So as Matt said, props to Jeremy. To be able to answer Matt and not compromise Catholicism, this was help from God. Jeremy prays. One quibble though: I wouldn't even mention that I wouldn't call something a "doctrinal shift". There is can hardly be such a thing in Catholicism. Clarification yes, change no.
It's amazing.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Yeah, the good Dr. Holmes is S-tier knowledgeable about Catholicism.
I'm supposed to be Catholic and I did not know half the arguments the guy used :)
I thoroughly enjoyed this as a revert Catholic. Thanks for showing how to talk about difficult things in a respectful way. God Bless you both
Welcome home
I’d like to see more of Doctor Holmes here in the future. He’s made me seriously consider the suppositions of the Catholic faith.
I have him as a professor and he is quite excellent as one!
@@jaydenstauffer7941 That's awesome! Can you tell him, if you don't mind, that he seriously helped me? I'm to start RCIA in a couple of weeks and hopefully be baptized thereafter.
Hi Alex, did you follow through?? I'm a practicing Buddhist who is seriously considering the Catholic faith.
@Callum Mackay wow what a change. As a Catholic I truly do hope you make the change. But regardless, to go from one to possibly the other shows that you have a very open and honest mind. God bless and I wish you the best.
I'm glad you addressed the heated topic, which is the waffle fries. And you did well on the video topic too. Really enjoyed the series, thank you
They're the best fries in town, and with good cause! And I'm glad he addressed it, because I was getting a little tired of telling everyone who mentioned something about them not eating basically what he said in the intro😂 (he did leave a comment on a previous episode addressing it (I forget which one), but with all the thousands of comments that these videos have gotten, I can see why most people didn't find it, and I admit I wondered about it, too, until I saw his comment). I was surprised but ecstatic to come across a video (then a second, third, fourth, and fifth) that was an interview with my theology and Latin professor - my favorite professor I've ever had; this series took me right back to my Theology 201 class with him, which really brought back the memories.
@@SnowySpiritRuby I'll have to try them when I visit the U.S.
This was joy-inducing. Thank you.
My daughter fell away from her faith for a while and now is back stronger than ever. It’s funny because she began watching your channel and in particular this discussion. She’d been doing a lot of reading and research and she loved your channel, but this conversation in particular.
I had gone to visit her last year and she and I both wanted to share this video series with each other! lol We didn’t know each other had been watching it.
She’s made her general confession with her parish priest, a very solid and orthodox young man. She’s been trying to go to daily Mass when her work and school schedule allows. And she’s now working with Catholic hospice and the chaplain for a Catholic hospital near where she lives.
Thank you for conducting not only this conversation, but all your conversations with grace and love. You promote Christian unity and that is beautiful in this difficult life.
This has been an amazing series! Thank you for sharing such an enlightening conversation Matt, it’s been great. As a Catholic, your approach to ecumenism and honest questioning has been very helpful. God Bless!
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Yep, you're doing great work. Suscribed.
19 months later, we finally made it.
Haha
Actually 21 or 22, according to Dr. Holmes. He was surprised Matt sat on them so long, too, but the outro on part 4 explains Matt's reason for it.
Literally a convo between the most Protestant looking man and the most catholic looking man in the world.
ikr xD
😂
I'm honestly a bit sad to see this series come to a close but I've really enjoyed it and I hope to see more conversations between yourself and Dr. Holmes at some point in the future. May God bless you both.
Thank you! I've enjoyed it too. Thanks for weighing in on these.
Thank you for wanting to hear and understand what the Catholic Church teaches.
Honestly this guy is waaaay more interesting than your average priest.
But, the RCC teaches there is “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” . This is a horrendous terrible doctrine within the catechism. 😥
@@cliffpyle3155 Every religion is like that. My way or the highway.
@@cliffpyle3155 Well, take the Eucharist then. Catholics affirm that it is the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord. That's quite a thing to attest to and believe. Catholics worship God in the Eucharist. Is it idolatry? Will idolators find salvation? Protestants will say no. That's a terrible teaching! 😢
@@cliffpyle3155
Cliff,
To your question: "Outside the Church there is no salvation".
In recent times, the Church has recognized that its teaching about the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation has been widely misunderstood, so it has “re-formulated” this teaching in a positive way. Here is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church begins to address this topic:
“How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?
Reformulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
I could say more but it would be more expansive.
God bless.
As a Protestant pastors/missionary kid, your videos are wonderful fodder for conversation I get to have with my friends and my wife.
Your videos are much appreciated. I now look for opportunities to walk in and visit as many churches I can. I love that “high church’s” tend to be fairly open throughout the week. I wish more Protestant churches were as open to the public. I feel it could open the church to the community.
Many Lutheran churches do that.
I feel the same one big boy
Hello from a fellow Protestant missionary kid! 👋 Agreed! I think it is a much more open and welcoming posture to let people come from where they’re at, as they are. I also fall asleep in many Sunday morning sermons and have to listen to them after once my brain catches up 😂
I'm a Catholic, and I have so much appreciated the content of this channel, especially when you speak to people of other traditions. This series has been awesome. It's great to see such healthy dialogue. This is what the world needs. Thank you Matt
Catholic here who has tuned into your channel a lot and been keeping up with your content: this is amazing and I love it! Keep it up and I can't wait to see more from you! God Bless you!
As a Catholic I'm so glad you did this series. I loved it immensely and Dr. Holmes is wonderful at explaining nuance in a very approachable way. Thank you both so much.
He definitely has a knack for it - he was usually the only person who could explain complex theological topics in a way I (someone who very much struggles with philosophical rhetoric) could actually understand. His explanation at a conference back in August of what exactly the separation of light and darkness during Creation meant absolutely blew my mind, since I had never really understood how exactly the darkness was different from the night (day/night) except that they obviously had to be different. He's one of the only reasons I made it through college successfully and graduated on time with my class, and to this day still remains my favorite professor I've ever had.
@@SnowySpiritRuby You're so lucky to have had him as a teacher! I hope he knows how much his work benefitted you. :)
@@sallyrastogi9853 He does. And if you're interested in hearing his creation lecture from August, you can find it on the WCC website with a search for "WSCT 2020" - they turned some of the lectures from that conference into podcast episodes.
@@SnowySpiritRuby Very happy to hear that. I pray that more people have the levelheadedness, compassion and curiosity to continue this sort of discourse.
You have an Indian surname, Sally
I have enjoyed these discussions. As a protestant who lives in an area where there is not a large population of Catholic's I am in the process of learning. I have worked with local Catholics in areas of ministry and have a respect for the demonstration of their faith. This past year travelling for work I have found that the Catholic Channel on radio and EWTN have been a refuge for me from the negativity that politics and the pandemic helped generate on even the entertainment and sports radio stations. Along with these videos my respect and consideration for those practicing the Catholic faith has grown. I have visited the local Parish and initiated a friendship with the local Priest who serves three Parish's in our rural community. Rather than arguing and debating to try to prove spiritual superiority if we could have open discussions it is such a refreshing approach.
Thank you brother for looking at different religions with an open mind and respect as we should all to one another, it would make us live in harmony. God bless!
@@edy5082 I think they are more looking at different branches of Christianity. I see your point though and these examples of being in harmony and having peaceful dialogue are wonderful. People are really enjoying it too and it's causing them to want to branch out more.
"we'll do it again sometime..." okay Matt, how about a quarterly, continuing series? You and Jeremy have done a ton of good by these conversations and I suspect a great number of your audience shares that sentiment. Christ's Peace, bro'!
Looooved this series! I’m a newish Christian and it’s been very informative and interesting!
Praying for Matt to realize the fullness of our faith and to come home to the Catholic Church.
I am married to a Catholic woman and we are raising our kids Catholic. I was raised Protestant (COC) and later became Atheist open to Agnosticism. I met my wife after that period of my life. I am beginning RCIA next month. I say all that to say this... It is mutually respectful conversations such as these that will further either initiative or purpose. To engage, believing another's agenda to be evil, will never end productively. To engage believing the other has no agenda is naïve, at best. To engage in an effort to better understand your own position by listening to another's is the birth of wisdom. I thank you both for your willingness to hear and to speak and to publish those interactions. If only we could meet in this manner politically... One must entertain the thought that we, even on opposing spectrums religiously, may be able to show an example to our leaders that "We, the People" have figured out how to get along. We're just waiting for them to catch up. If we could ever achieve that, I believe we would be on the right track to moving forward nationally and rejoining a global initiative for peace. You both set a fine example as well as the other guests on this channel and I thank you.
We can't meet in the middle in politics because one side is actively trying to dismantle the constitution and well being of our nation.
Thanks you two. I'm not religious in any sense but have enjoyed being a fly on the wall for this series. No matter what we believe we can still hear each other out and be kind. Cheers!
The one final statement you made, and I paraphrase, "We all believe in the same God". That, my brother is the tie that binds, and something both Protestant and Catholic should share the embrace. I am a Catholic in the Bible belt, and I also enjoy conversations with many open minded Protestants, that are comfortable to have a conversation knowing I am not trying to convert them, but to understand our prospective denominations better. Thank you both for being True Christians in word and deed.
@@76katster If the 'Eucharist' was as your church claims, that is transubstantion. A literal, physical, alteration of bread into literal physical flesh and wine into literaly physical blood.. why is this not represented with a basic chemistry test? None of the Apostles including Paul ever said that the bread and wine literally changed into Christ's flesh and Christ Himself simply said "do this in remembrance of me."
Your Church took faithful Christians who loved the Lord Jesus dearly and burned them alive at the stake for the "sin" of not believing the bread in front of them was actual skin and human flesh. They similiarly burned people alive for the "sinl of wanting to read the Bible for themselves. The impression one gets is that if Rome had it's way none of this would have changed and they would still have a monopoly on Bibles and still be burning people at the stake for trying to read them in English.
How necessary then was the Reformation in light of those facts? Some Orthodox hold that it was the collective behavior of the Western clergy (simony, indulgences, fornication, pedophilia, sodomy, profligacy, etc) that provoked the Protestant Reformation which seems under those conditions reasonable even if theologically misguided.
@@codyvandal2860 Ever looked in to Eucharist miracles and scientific tests on it ? You are not new to raise this doubts ?? You seems to deny Jesus words in John 6.
@@peacelover4234 I would love to see a scientific test on the eucharist. John 6 is obviously talking about a spiritual/allegorical consumption which all the apostles understood. Otherwise Christ could just hold out his arm and say "come take a bite."
@@codyvandal2860 And they even made one of those who burned fellow Christians at the stake, a Saint. Thomas More.
@Cody Vandal Here are some things to ponder.
First, suppose Jesus was here right now. Let's further suppose we scrapped some skin cells off his arm and submitted them for DNA testing. Would we be able to detect his divinity?
Second, have you considered that when the Catholic Church talks about the "real presence," they are referring to Jesus' resurrected and glorified body? After his resurrection, his body was qualitatively different. For example, he could appear and vanish at will.
Also, consider all the fantastic things you believe (e.g., creation, angels, humans, incarnation, etc.). Is it really that hard to believe Jesus could be present in a real and substantial way under the appearance of bread and wine?
Great and respectful conversation. As a Catholic I enjoyed this series. Congratulations.
I love how Dr. H responds! He explains without excuses and he doesn't look for the speck in his friends eye. This is a really balanced approach to a very common objection.
I wish there were more conversations like this. There used to be more angry conflict in place of conversations before our time, but now indifferentism reigns which is arguably worse.
"The practice and the art of substantive conversation about real things that matter." With master practitioners Whitman and Holmes! I'm from 'one side' of the convo and also never felt dissed.
I am a Catholic myself,thank you for your videos.
This is a great video of two Christian brothers with different views on Christianity having a very respectful conversation.
I personally am horrified at the things the Catholic church has done in the name of Christ.
Thankfully that church went out a very long time ago.
I apologise to all Christians of other faiths that our church did these things to other believers.
On one hand the church was trying to defend its authority and stop what they believe was heretical.
It will never excuse what the church did.
I hope we can bring our belief in Jesus Christ together and share it as brothers and sisters in Jesus name.
Thank you gentleman for showing how it is meant to be done.
I am not a person of faith myself, but I am so happy that I found this channel! I am someone that is extremely interested in history and the parts Christianity has played in history are very important in my eyes. This channel is a magnificent source for someone like me to learn about important views on faith and views held by those of faith that may have defined the views of people hundreds of years ago. This adds so much more perspective to the history that I love to learn! Thank you so much for what you do!
I definitely recommend going further, looking into scripture (don’t take it all at once as it can be a lot) and church history. And as you look, keep your heart open to the Lord. He is beyond interesting. He is, as both the protestant and catholic state - He is the Saviour.
God bless you! ^^
Matt, this is what heaven will look like: everybody talking about the 500 assumptions we had on this side of life. From a Catholic, God bless you my friend.
I discovered your channel in January 2023. One suggestion I have is that with these several part videos include in the title some way to identify part one, part two, etc. I am trying to find part 3 right now but I have to open all of them.
Thanks so much for these amazing dialogues!! Brilliant example of genuine ecumenical exchange that doesn’t give up on truth but is conducted in love and a deep hope that we might get closer to familial unity. God bless you Matt and thank you for your ministry
Dedicating my daily rosary to your conversion man. Let’s bring you home!
Great series! I’ve genuinely enjoyed your curiosity and ecumenism as a Protestant Evangelical who also loves studying the faith. I feel that you are a kindred spirit in this way.
Great series! If only all us Christians could sit down and ask thoughtful questions. In a loving caring way. My belief is absolute power no matter a state or religion will eventually aggress against those who disagree because it's a threat to their power.
Matt, I stumbled on your channel and find it to be absolutely fascinating! I am a born and raised, Catholic who is still devout to this day, as are my husband and kids. Dr Holmes is a brilliant man and is obviously an expert at explaining some very difficult nuances about our faith. I do think, however, you might want to reach out to a Jesuit and dig into their mindset. They come from a different place, a different headspace, and have incredible perspective on Catholicism. They are wonderful “teachers” of the church, and are practical in their approach. There is nothing like a good Jesuit sermon!!
@10.37 "If my people were in charge, we never would have done that" only they did. Look at the protestant treatment of the Irish - nailing the doors shut of houses in the middle of the night and setting fire to them as just one example.
That is my quibble too. I recognize that they are speaking of an official state church authority, but I would argue that while the USA has never had an official church, it has been a country founded and settled primarily by protestants, and even though you have many people not claiming any religion, historically protestant ethics *do* saturate our culture. That particular power within the culture and undercurrent within the state definitely paved the way for significant persecution toward Catholics who settled here.
...and that's not even getting into the English civil war and ongoing conflict in Ireland...
@@rootsandmarrow I really love that Dr. H steered clear of pointing out the history of protestant violence or current issues. We can only build unity as the body of Christ if sometimes we are willing to take a hit... even if it seems unfair... because it genuinely doesn't to the person who is asking.
Great series Matt! You both embody the saying, "Wise men still seek Him."
I really appreciated Dr. Holmes' explanation of how our instincts were different in premodern times. The separation between religion and government and culture that we take for granted now is actually such a recent shift. And it makes sense that in a more premodern era when people were trying to have Catholic nations, what you do with people who threaten the catholicity of the country would lead to violence that was acceptable then but isn't now due to our ways of thinking. Thank you very much for this conversation that exposed me to a whole new point of view!
Literally so amazing to have an example of how to talk to people with differing opinions. I have leaned Protestant my whole life and I still do. But now, and after some conversations with my own friends and my own studies, I understand from the Catholic view. It seems like there has been a divide made between the two parties that has grown to something crazy.
I guess it really boils down to the points both of these men made where I still stand on the side of Protestantism.
Brother Matt, keep up this ministry of the Word in bite size form, it is wonderful and much needed, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you
Matt, thank you for making this! This series has just been so good, beautiful, and enlightening. It’s been an absolute pleasure to get to watch you guys hash it out and discuss everything!
Matthew this has been a thrill ride of a discussion's!! It's bitter sweet of a eating. Bitter being that it had to end. Hope there is something more you two could do. Best of whishes to the both of you God Bless.
The joy you guys exhibit when you talk about this stuff is contagious. It really does conjure hope for building up the religious divide when seemingly very different Christians can have a peaceful, productive discussion.
Guys, this dialog (5 videos) is so much better then the usual "we smart, they dumb" crap, that keeps polarizing the world. Thanks a lot for it, and Glory to God ❤😊
Also as Catholic I learn so much from my Protestant Brothers and Sisters.
Thoroughly enjoyed this series, was raised Catholic at 31 started attending Protestant church with my wife, now I feel I've been blessed with both after 32 years of attending Protestant churchs and now retired I am attending Mass during the week and Worship service's on Sunday. Thanks again for airing your series.
As an atheist, from a Christian and Catholic family, this was a very educational series. Dialogue between people who dont always agree is definitely something society needs.
All Europeans and Christians as well should be thankful to the Roman Catholic Church for organising the defence of our civilisation, people and faith.
They did this during the crusades, Reconquista, the Ottoman wars etc.
Europe is once again under great threat from various adversaries, we need the Church of God more than ever now.
And yet, they're capitulating... but “Who am I to judge?"
@@nitsuanomrah6997 if by 'they' you mean the U.S. Then you are correct. Land of the weak, paranoid and afraid.
@@johnspencer3994 bit harsh, where are you from?
@@nitsuanomrah6997 a bit hard but couldn’t be too true.
@@johnspencer3994 nah I'm talking about the pope.. he's essentially on the lgbt bandwagon at this point.. thers plenty of Americans that fed up with everything that's going on. Bit we don't have that big timer pope power now do we.. where u from?
Matt, thank you so much for these videos. They are a joy to watch! Neither of you are proselytising, or wanting to win an argument at all costs, or getting so defensive that you want to tear each others heads off i.e. the "normal" interaction between Protestant and Catholic. How could it not be productive for two Christians to sit and sanely engage with each other about our common faith and our common humanity - having been made in the image of God, to know, love and serve Him? And what if we never agreed entirely on doctrine, but still achieved, by the grace of God, a loving, committed unity between brother and sister that would stun the world?
I am still hoping for Part 5, where you actually eat your wings! But in all seriousness, wonderful and beautiful stuff - thank you!
Cried a wee bit at the end. Thanks for the convo! 🙏
I’m very grateful for this series! I’m a Catholic Missionary in the Amazon, I spend my life helping the lost sheep know Christ from all denominations. Seeking understanding is a wonderful thing
Really loved this 5 part series. Thanks
In trying to answer the question of violence in the church, I would suggest we consider the progression of the theory for the use of violence in human history.
1)Hammurabi's Code of the Babylonian Empire from 1792-50 B.C.E. and Moses declaration of it in Lev. 24:19-21 "Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death." That is revenge can not be greater that the injury perpetrated.
2) The beatitudes of Jesus Mt 5:3-12 include; "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God". And Mark 12:31 ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
3) Third Council of the Lateran in 1179 where the Church adopted rules that successfully limited when and where fighting could occur: Catholic forces (e.g. of warring barons) could not fight each other on Sundays, Thursdays, holidays, the entirety of Lent and Advent and other times, severely disrupting the conduct of wars.
And in 1475, St Thomas Aquinas published his theory of just war. In Summa Theologica Aquinas asserted that it is not always a sin to wage war, and he set out criteria for a just war. According to Aquinas, three requirements must be met. Firstly, the war must be waged upon the command of a rightful sovereign. Secondly, the war needs to be waged for just cause, on account of some wrong the attacked have committed. Thirdly, warriors must have the right intent, namely to promote good and to avoid evil.[30][31] Aquinas came to the conclusion that a just war could be offensive and that injustice should not be tolerated so as to avoid war. Nevertheless, Aquinas argued that violence must only be used as a last resort. On the battlefield, violence was only justified to the extent it was necessary. Soldiers needed to avoid cruelty and a just war was limited by the conduct of just combatants. Aquinas argued that it was only in the pursuit of justice, that the good intention of a moral act could justify negative consequences, including the killing of the innocent during a war.
4) And finally in 1776, the Declaration of Independence declared: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Here finally, is a declaration that there is no government, no religion, no tribe, no person who has power over God given inalienable rights.
Finally after almost 4000 years of thought, and what we now understand as natural law and have felt in out hearts, we human beings have proclaimed and codified. An yet, we have a long way to go to faithfully proclaim the truth of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the end of violence.
Refreshing to see respectful conversation. I think it is quite fair to say the Kings and Queens of Europe had a more than significant roll in these things. Ironically most people overwhelmingly sought to be tried for their offences by the Church courts because of fairer treatment and mercy they offered. Much of our judicial foundations are established by the Church during those times.
Matt, I join others in thanking you for an intelligent and sensitive approach to other communities of believers.
@MattWhitmanTMBH - I was wondering if you’ve considered doing a series where the table is turned and Dr. Holmes gets to ask about your Protestant beliefs? This was a great series and it would be exciting to see it continue but flipped so that you were answering the questions. I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen an interview like that. It seems like it’s always Catholics answering Protestant objections to their faith on the spot but not the other way around.
I agree. Would love to see something like that too. Awesome series this has been.
I just caught up on all these today bc i just found the channel so this is perfect!
I was raised Protestant, in various denominations, and converted to Catholicism after I met my wife who was Catholic. After converting, I was amazed at the amount of negativity thrown my way from Protestant family and friends. It is just plain ignorance. I love what you are doing here Matt! I would love to see you and Matt Fradd have a conversation.
When people ask about what is my religion, my answer has always been "Christian." The title of Protestant or Catholic does not define my relationship with the Lord, because Jesus is above all things. I pray for the day when ALL CHRISTIANS can be united.
Seek first to understand and don't be scared to learn the reasons why we Christians do what we do.
God Bless
That’s what I call ideological anti-Catholicism.
I'm super grateful to Dr. Holmes for jumping on the program! His first answer regarding a national religion and the "danger" of a diverging (my language) teacher who is picking up momentum seems oddly reminiscent of the rationale that ultimately sent Jesus to the cross, doesn't it? Or did I miss something?
Well, let’s take Christian claims seriously. He wasn’t a Divergent, or a ‘disruption’ he was literally the Son of the Living God, sent here to save us out of love, and establish a Church. Going so far as to adopt anyone, who so humbled their heart and begged for forgiveness and repentance and promise them a part in the Kingdom of God. It’s a difference of fact and quality, not of opinion or rationale.
The difference is we know Jesus was right. If someone misleads others into thinking the Trinity isn't true, they put that persons soul in danger, therefore they are a danger to a Christian society.
@@youngrupee maybe you're looking at it with too much hindsight. think about what it was like at the time.
@@youngrupee so... you do think we should kill someone who leads others to not accept the trinity?
@@JustinKhoe If we lived in a society where we had no other reasonable means to stop such a person from spreading soul-endangering heresy, (reasonable means includes: digital and written censorship, an organized court system, the resources to humanely jail such an individual etc.), then yes, to save the souls of those who would be lead astray by clever-sounding heresy, killing such an individual may be the only way to achieve a net positive outcome. Medieval Europe was one such society where those reasonable means were not available.
It must also be noted that heretics often instigated uprisings and waves of mass violence, so for the sake of public order, on top of the spiritual concerns, a heretic must be extinguished for the sake of the many, despite how mean that may look from our posh 21st century perspective.
“Can we promote the practice and the art of substantive conversation about real things that matter?” 💞 Thank you both so much!
One of the best channels on YT. Thanks a lot brother.
May I interject a thought? In the context of the brutality of Christians in history (and not the just war topic), I believe we are NOT a nicer and less barbaric culture. In fact, we are more barbaric. In the middle ages, death and violence was meted out for an enemy--or law breaker. It was considered swift justice. Today, we destroy our own children in pursuit of our own happiness. We have lost all nobleness (even seeming) in our violence. We slaughter millions of the innocent unborn children a year and that is far more brutal than any other time in history. One quarter to one third of our population are killed via the womb by the child's own parents. Nothing in human history equals this.
Going outside a Christian culture we can even go to the pagan societies and compare their child sacrifice to ours. While there WERE times children were sacrificed to the gods, again, this wasn't the decision of the parents, and it was done for the good of the people. They believe that IF they didn't sacrifice their children to the gods, they would all die. We are such a calloused and arrogant culture that we have deceived ourselves into thinking we have become a less barbaric and "nice" people.
Not to justify true barbarity in the past, but we are incredibly white-washing our own culture if we think we have evolved in this arena.
Christianity is not only about an individualistic conversion of the private space, but also about a cultural and national conversation of the public space.
This is where modern Protestants have gone wrong and America in general with this hyper individualistic and liberal mentality
I just finished this series and I wanted to say how much I enjoyed it and am sad to see it come to an end. I love when I’m able to see people have fruitful, civil, and intelligent discussions about topics that we often only engage in within our safe echo chambers. I enjoy your channel in general would very happily watch any more videos you two decide to make together in the future.
The final installment 😭. Why is this not open ended????? How about a be continued at least.....
I would love to hear a conversation like this with the other side of the great schism (Orthodox). This has been a great talk with a very knowledgeable person from the Catholic tradition!
What would be really interesting is Catholic and Orthodox. I'm not so sure those conversations go so well. I haven't really seen them on the internet anyway. I see Orthodox being interviewed by protestant, and as long as they are sharing their beloved traditions, then all goes well. Catholics seem far more open to having fruitful dialogue w/ protestants, and I even see some Catholic channels that reach out to protestants now too.
Should do another one of these, can't find anything from Dr. Holmes on YT and I love these types of conversations. I learn the most seeing the differences hashed out like this, honestly.
Thank you .......... wonderful discussion
Expecting more Parts
~~God bless ~~
Great series, Matt. As a former Landerite, I love seeing the Gannet Grill again and remembering epic Fourth of July's on Main Street. Thank you for the excellent conversation with Dr. Holmes and the humble spirit you both approached difficult topics with.
Say hi to Lander for me next time you're in town Charles. Thanks for the kind words, and I really can't express enough how impressive a guy Dr. Holmes is.
I heard your name mentioned now and then when I was in college, particularly my freshman year - I think we just barely missed crossing paths that August. Dr. Holmes still remains my favorite professor I've ever had, even several years post-graduation. They've definitely done some major renovations to that upstairs room since 2012 - the only time I was ever up there was February 2014, and it was still the old look, so it had to have been sometime between then and September/October 2019 (when these were filmed), but no clue when exactly. I haven't been to Gannett in over 2 years, but after watching these, I find myself wanting those fries again - best fries in town for a good reason!🤣
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Please stop by Lander the next time you're in this part of the state, perhaps you can meet up with Dr. Holmes and "do it again sometime" - he'd love that, and I know I'd thoroughly enjoy listening to my favorite professor do what he does best: explaining complex theological topics in a way that even someone like me (who very much struggles to comprehend philosophical rhetoric) can easily understand; wish I'd had him all 4 years, but I am eternally grateful for the 3 semesters I did get with him.
Thank you for not including obnoxious chewing sounds in your videos. The mark of a true believer.
Binged watched this 3 years later lol great content on CZcams. Keep it up
Enjoyed this series so much. Thank you for the respectful conversation. God bless you.
I am just starting the video and I know this is about violence within the Catholic Church but it is kinda annoying that this topic is always brought up by protestants without acknowledging the tremendous amount of horrible violence in protestant circles like the protestant "inquisition"
TIs a narrative of course.
I left a note to Matt on that earlier.
@Aprende Movimiento
I agree.
Apples to oranges.
sad the series is over. Love it!
Great video Matt realy enjoyed the series, would be great to see more conversation like this in the future :) keep up the great work !
I think the conversation at 14:30 is a worthwhile train of thought. Notably, character and pattern of life is unfailingly connected to the gospel message in the New Testament. Suffering for righteousness by a godless society is vindicated and puts it to shame. A mismatch between message and behavior results in an understandable criticism and resentment, especially when Christianity rises to places of political power.
I'm a Presbyterian who finds himself in the interesting situation of doing building maintenance part time at the Presbyterian church and part time at the Catholic church down the street. I have close friends in both churches. I have a great respect for Christians of various traditions. I think about this stuff all the time. I love these very respectful conversations!
The whole series, like Matt's other work was full of compassion. However, this last question appeared to focus on violence from Catholics, without acknowledging the opposite too. There was violence and blood on all sides of this argument; however whoever was in power Protestant or Catholic, the violence was often for personal power grab reasons. The religion was not the reason, it may have been the excuse. the conflation of the religion being the focus I believe obscures the true purpose of those in power.
Thanks Matt and Dr. Holmes for your continued work and exploration of these issues.
Hi Pastor Whitman and Dr. Holmes,
I deeply respect both of you and appreciate your willingness to sit together and discuss all these things. Earnestly, thank you so much for doing so.
May I ask each of you to clarify which point in the timeline you meant in the time of your conversation as modernity and today vs. what is in the past and no longer our time? There were references in your conversation to centuries past and antiquity, but some more clear boundary would help.
I feel this distinction is important to make, as since the time of your conversation and now, there have been the uncovering of over a thousand unmarked graves and abusive and torturous treatment of indigenous children at many residential boarding schools on this continent. These schools were operated by Catholic and Protestant churches, under the consent and direction of both the USA and Canadian governments, for the express purpose of cultural destruction. Some of the survivors of those schools are still in the land of the living and are sharing their stories today. It's also important as there are some people of the cloth on both sides who have had recently recorded public messages indicating that they are for causing harm and death to fellow Creator-image-bearing humans, and they are not compelled to immediately cease such talk.
Again, I appreciate your conversation and breaking bread with each other. This kind of thing is so vital to do in order to be One as our God is One.
Violence and shortcomings of the church are a tricky thing in regards to man's involvement and responsibilities of the health of the church, with all our shortcomings.
Taylor Marshall's book, " Infiltration of the Church", is a good read to understand this subject better.
It's been enjoyable listening to people versed in the history and your differences in thoughts. I'll have to get around to educating myself more on that aspect.
I've read the NT for the first time, on many levels I feel inspired by God, Christ and the apostles. I look forward to learning more and revisiting the NT after reading the OT.
Very many thanks. I just binge watched ghe entire series. Who does that. God bless you abundantly.
Hi Matt I really enjoy your shows. I'm a Catholic and I find these shows with Jeremy really wonderful. Keith Nester is a recent convert to the Catholic Church and he has a growing CZcams show called Catholic Feedback, (33) Catholic Feedback LIVE - CZcams. I'm not sure why but I think you two should meet up and chat.
Hi Matt, Thank you and Dr. Holmes for your wonderful Catholic/ Protestant series, i was really blessed by the discussion, Thank You for your respectful and loving conversation.
...richard
I think it was Emile Durkheim who said "all political discourse has its roots in religious discourse".
I also think Dr Holmes missed a trick by not quoting from Vatican II "The Truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it makes its entrance into the mind at once quietly and with power"
Keep up the good work Matt
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🎉 Series conclusion: Protestant-Catholic conversations yield mutual understanding and empathy.
01:53 ⚔️ Historical context: Church's use of the sword and temporal power varied across time periods.
02:48 🌍 Societal change: Shift towards secularism affected how church relates to the state and society.
05:11 🏛️ Church's relationship to the secular world shifted from closely aligned to distinct and separate.
07:10 🔄 Shift in theological perspective on church's involvement in state matters and the use of violence.
11:08 🔀 Modernity's impact: Society's secularization transformed perceptions of church's role.
14:08 🤔 Contingent outcome: Secular society not necessarily an inevitable culmination but a result of historical circumstances.
16:02 🤝 Importance of dialogue: Religious discussions impact society, politics, and the way individuals view each other.
17:41 🌟 Hope in conversations: Engaging discussions foster mutual understanding and promote positive change.
19:19 🙌 Productive conversation: Tolerance doesn't equate to indifference; dialogue builds empathy and knowledge.
20:02 💬 Series appreciation: Open exchange of ideas fosters growth and deepens understanding.
Made with HARPA AI
Let's be real we are here because we want to know what happened to those waffle fries. Where there eaten? were there not?
WE NEED TO KNOW!!
No but in all seriusness this was a great conversation I have been binge watching super interesting conversation after super interesting conversation. I come from a catholic background but I don't profess any faith.Still I find it fun to hear this good hearted conversations .
Time to see the whole conversation again in one seat...
Great job guys!
It's been a real pleasure listening to you.
🍻
Great video! There you go, two great topics for future discussion videos: christianity vs modernity and christian social thought. I believe the presbyterian and lutheran traditions have a pretty well developed theoretical framework for these matters. The catholic view is well defined with it's own manual about social doctrine. Orthodoxy obviously have a pretty clear teaching on church-state relations. I would enjoy a good sitdown to compare evangelical, high church protestant and catholic/orthodox POV's.
Another one so soon? You're spoiling us, Matt!
God bless you both
God bless you
Thank you Tess!
You should have included at least one bite at the end ;)
he did at 18:52
Really great series, enjoyed it!!!
love those talks. thanks Matt!
Great video Matt!
13:45 "What happened to society that it became possible for the first time in human history for a society to see itself as secular?" Start with the Hundred Years War and then all of the religious conflicts and purges of "heretics" after it. These were conflicts in which every major faction lost big from time to time. Those conflicts influenced all of European philosophy (political and otherwise).
I'd also note that there were pluralistic Empires in antiquity (the Persian Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Roman Empire being the most well known) that (even if they weren't necessarily secular per se) were able to rule over peoples of disparate conflicting faiths without those conflicts, in the grand scheme of "empire," a major problem. I know Rome conflicted with Christians, but that was an odd case because Romans had trouble understanding Christianity because it wasn't ancient. The Romans made accommodations even for the Jews and their worship of one God. I think we had to "re-invent" our system of toleration, rather than borrowing it from antiquity, but there were some cultures that didn't demand strict religious adherence of all of the members of their society.
This is the Witness to the world that even though we disagree on certain things we are still One in our Lord Jesus Christ