Robots Aren’t Crazy Enough to be Race Car Drivers
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2024
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Abu Dhabi Autonomous Racing League tried to hold the world’s first self-driving formula 1 race.
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3:45 Linus skips past the scene he’s looking for
*”This video’s trash!”*
😂😂😂
They must've trained the AI using videos of Pastor Maldonado.
Some people were joking they used Lance Stroll as a basis too 😂
THE GOAT 🔥🔥🔥🔥
That’s _race winner_ Pastor Maldonado to you
VENEZUELA MENTIONED (?)
Clearly their AI needs to be trained by the guy beating records in Trackmania with AI....
As I recall, there hasn't been any opportunity for significant testing with the given car...
@@dorian6021 tell that to most major racing series
@@dorian6021 testing and practice sessions are regulated in most motorsports, time teams allowed to spend testing on the track is rather limited.
I also watched that Martinsville race live. Ross Chastain actually name dropped the Gamecube as his platform of choice back in the day for using the video game move. The situation was he needed to finish in a certain position to be eligible for the championship in the next race and that move was his last effort to make up the spots which he did. He ended up finishing second in the championship standings, so almost. The move likely worked due to the difference in speed between the turns and the straights at Martinsville, and the specific turn radius of the track. It definitely wouldn't work everywhere. It also had to be banned going forward. There are a number of safety issues involved, plus it would be a bad look having a significant number of cars all doing that at the end of a race. Some would say if everyone does it, no one could advance position, so it wouldn't be worth doing, but there would be those who would try it and people would then be forced to do it as a block. It's also much more special to just have it be one and done. Incidentally, they just had the closes finish in history to cap off a great race at Kansas last weekend.
As much as I'm in favor of driver safety, the idea of autonomous racing has negative appeal to me. The human element is important in racing. I can't say it's a shock that the autonomous tech is nowhere near good enough right now to even look the part.
Didn’t he say it was also one of the scariest things he’d ever done and he’d never do it again? It looks and sounds scary as hell XD
@@DoctorX17 He did say something to that effect. Still, I doubt it alone would be a proper deterrent when so much is on the line.
I completely agree. And I also feel the same about pretty much most generative AI tech that has been released recently. What is the point of a sport if there aren't people playing it? A car race is not just about cars moving around, art is not just about the final product; we're interested in things because we know there is someone behind it. We feel excited to think about the skill that must take for a driver to perform such a stunt, or the skill required for an artist to paint something; we take into consideration the decisions people have to make to achieve things and how their lives and background have an influence in it. This matters. This is what makes us fall in love with those things, and hell, even going as far as to try and do them ourselves! I don't see a point in replacing humans in the things we are most passionate about doing-especially with the pretext of "saving time"-while we still waste days upon days filling (generally) useless spreadsheets at work. Idk. This turned into a sort of rant sorry lol.
@@juliappoki No worries on the mini rant. It was worth saying and I appreciated reading it because I feel the same way. I think it's a bit more obvious with racing because it immediately becomes soulless if it's just a bunch of automated cars. It's not that I want it to be dangerous for people, but without the human factor, there's nothing there.
"hey check out this nascar clip"
immediately skips right past the important part of the video
10/10, no notes, about on par with F1TV direction anyway lmao
My favourite thing is when he is looking for the clip AS IT'S PLAYING
The thing about the nascar driver doing a wallride is that they didn't ban it until the end of the season. At any other point in that entire season it was still legal to do. I think they might have wanted someone else to try it before the end of the season.
They used LANCE STROLL for AI training!!!!!!!!
Incase you didn't know, the engineers only had 2 months to make them race without humans
If they had more time it could be amazing
How could it be amazing? If they're using the best track models and all are perfectly driving theoretically nothing will happen. Every lap is perfect so there's not going to be any movement except in rare mechanical failures. How they start should be how they'd finish
@@MrDummyisDumb not nessesarily, you could use different tire management strategies for example. Or how a car enters/exits a corner. a perfect run is only possible with only one car on the track without anything to interfere with it.
@@thelpcheat7869 But theoretically aren't they all going to use the same strategy? I'm sure which ever one the algorithm says is most efficient they'll utilize. If they're running the same models, on the same vehicles, with the same goal of winning and variables are really only risk of tire and mechanical failures, I guess I just don't see how you'll have any movement
@@MrDummyisDumb For there to be no movement you'd have to have a perfect car, no deviance in any of the cars, they'd have to be built exactly the same, even the slight deviations from manufacturing would have to be the exact same. Then, you'd need to have all the cars run the exact same code down to the exact same way they'd deal with the track rubbering in, and everyone running the same strategy.
There's so much that goes into a race that you'd have to code a ton of different variables into the system, then you'd also have to account for the car differences. Because, if you look at F1 currently. The same car from the same manufacturer could have vastly different performances simply because there's something wrong with the actual car that isn't so easily spotted. The different grip levels, weather conditions, wind differences, track wear, etc. Would all have to be able to be adjusted on the fly and the AI would have to know how to deal with it. And, if everyone went the same strategy, then someone would change their strategy because there are strategies that beat other strategies downright.
So suffice it to say. It would be an incredible spectacle.
Maybe it could work like those maze solving robot competitions?@@MrDummyisDumb
The teams had, I think, 6 weeks to write the code, they got acces to the cars ust 6 weeks befor e the race. A few 'bugs' came to light. For example, you are not allowed to overtake a car during a safety car or yellow flag, but it seems none of the teams took into account that you ARE allowed to overtake a car that is stationary on the track during those times. So 1 car span off and the other just stoped behind it 'thinking' they could not overtake.
So this was a race, but also a test to see what would happen and that that info and update the code. I'm sure next time the issue with stationary cars would not be there anymore, but I''m lso sure some other issue will arrise.
I enjoyed watching it live, not because of the race, but becasue it was the first time AI cars were actually sort of racing. THe first time an AI car was on a track a few years ago, by itself, it took a hard left into a wall, so it is better already. Imagine what would happen if the teams have a year of experiance and data to play with.
Turns out a few years got an AI car turns hard right to the wall few days ago... The event is embarassing, it's nowhere near racing. Those AI are still doing their own lap disregarding other cars and they pretty lucky if they can actually complete a single lap. I don't think there's any team that managed to survive the event without few silly failures by their own.
I could have wrote better logic for sporting regulations as a 6 year old.
This is pathetic.
Look at Formula Student driverless laps. They've been doing it for a lot of years and their cars are absolutely hustling it around the track
OK. So, the idea that because it's on a track it's simpler it's very misleading. To put it simply, racing sims don't even have good racing AI. There's too many moves. In traffic your trying to pace the other traffic and everyone is cooperating. In racing it's the same but also everyone is trying to trick everyone else into making mistakes and then capitalizing and defending while still racing the person in front. AI just can't do it. Probably couldn't even hot lap a nascar track. Too many variables happening to fast. Plus they jumped straight into the deep end with formula cars. It's like putting your girlfriend in a shifter cart and telling her to do a fast lap. They are going to spin. They are going to crash. In order to drive an f1 car you have to migrate the brakes from the front to the back and side to side, manage aero, power delivery all kinds of crazy shit. The brakes have to be applied just so or you lock up. No offense but this is completely the work of nerds who are too confident. Start with a go cart on a go cart track. Same as you would with a human. Start small, figure it out. But that doesn't get millions in funding for another project that's going nowhere.
For context on the Nascar clip, the driver literally learned that trick from a NASCAR video game and it was discussed previously between drivers if it would ever work.
He threw the car up a gear and floored it while the rest of the pack dropped down a gear for the turn
Guaranteed the story was generated by some AI engine
I'm a big F1 fan, and this autonomous racing thing they did was...so bad. I just don't get the point of it. People watch F1, Nascar, IndyCar, Endurance Racing, etc because of the drivers racing fast cars and all the drama that ensues. You take the human element out and you get passionless racing. Also, when they were broadcasting this autonomous race, the commentators were hyping it up and singing this ideas praises....lol, no. Just no. It's an interesting use of technology but it has absolutely zero entertainment.
can make it even faster; 4g force constant; once we get the tech to be okay
The entire thing sounds more like a robotics competition than a race. That's not a bad thing, but they're appealing to the wrong crowd
@@blueberry1c2 Yes, I agree with that
It's a decent idea for developing self-driving stuff, but DARPA did something way cooler for a while and this is just immensely boring
I think they basically thought that it would have more mass appeal, and didn't realize that this is basically on the level of TAS vs normal Speed Running, where speed running has more mass appeal, but TAS is cool for those really into it.
There definitely are expectations in racing. You can’t just drive randomly, because every driver generally expects you to be somewhere, especially in something as precise as F1, and as soon as you’re not on the same general racing-line as someone else, they get upset, probably because you can get in the way and mess it up for others. - Most of the time, it’s not really like you can just drive on any side of the track you want, there’s a “best” spot along the entire track and it’s expected that you are on it. Besides, if you’re not, you generally won’t make it anyway.
So, I mean, that “decision making” you’re arguing or questioning isn’t really a huge factor, because real drivers don’t get a lot of space to improvise. It’s probably more about the pressure and endurance of the drivers, besides a little of decisionmaking (which is also largely up to the team).
Future Nascar games now have to make this move against the rules. HE RUINED IT FOR ALL OF US.
The game equivalent is called Wall Riding.
Though correct track has set layout and parameters, there's a company in UK (roborace?) who have created an AI race car that can drive within 1-2 seconds of a pro formula driver.
The issue AI will have as you alluded to is that racecraft is a huge discipline in itself. You can have varying levels of agrsssiveness per corner, per driver per lap depending on environmental factors (tyre degradation, temp, power, track evolution, opponents risk levels, stratagy etc).
Simple eg's, if opponent A has a better top speed car you'd want to make up time in the corners but block/upset their run before a straight to minimise speed build up.
Opponent B may drive aggressively, so you may show blocks/door closing earlier to upset timing to enter the corner, run them wide/hug the apex if they plan a switch back.
AI in a game is starting to do this (GT7), but it's still very early stages. Not gonna see it anytime soon in real life. Too much data to process.
There are incredibly finite parameters on race tracks- traditional machine learning models would excel at racing cars. The only hard part would be simulating the real world physics to train models, but that is done pretty effectively in the F1 games
They should've tried this at like... RC car scale first or something xD
They only had 2 months to prepare
Doesn’t make it any less stupid
This actually sounds about right the way I see it. Obviously there's gonna be a lot of teething problems in these kinds of events, but the racetrack - as Linus said himself - is a place where unpredictability is very high and time available to make a decision is very low. This sounds like a very good opportunity for self-driving cars to develop software that could someday trickle down to road cars.
You guys should take a look at the indy car autonomous challenge. That has been going on for 3 years and is way more impressive. The teams are universities, and they race them at CES. They race 2 cars at a time and they do overtake. The main diff is that they follow path while the a2rl is completely. It just isn't ready enough
I remember watching a documentary about an offroad race with only autonomous vehicles being allowed like ten years ago. Back then it made sense that the cars wouldn't be able to figure out how to traverse the lack of road, but you would think that wouldn't be a problem ten years later on an actual road.
The technology for self-driving vehicles is only really becoming readily available today, for it to be relatively safe for self-driving vehicles to exist on the road, we are probably at the very least another 6 months out more realistically probably another year or two for the software to be at a reasonable level
@@the_undead honestly, it feels like we're always six months away from a breakthrough on autonomous vehicles, but when those six months go by they add another six months
@@eddythefool That 6 months I gave is the absolute best case scenario. The two years is more what I would expect, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes five though. Because something you need to remember is if self -driving technology is 99% effective then approximately every 100 seconds A self-driving vehicle somewhere will get into an accident
1:44 this person is completely right! Like imagine watching a racing event where *nothing* goes wrong. It would be so boring. Especially NASCARs, where they just go on an elliptical track for like 40 laps straight or something. NASCARs are exciting *only* when there is a crash.
Number one I think autonomous racing league will help with for general use Autonomous cars is accident avoidance via the ability to use the limit of grip and braking with faster than human reaction time
So the “Why” behind the Nascar clip is he used the wall to be able to just floor it and not lose control due to speed.
I feel like videogames figured out this issue like 20 years ago
That swerving might be normal for getting to the racing line, but It looked janky
You see swerving in human racing during flags and starting line up to get the tires warm. "Cold" tires have significantly less traction than warmed up ones. The burnouts drag racers do before a race have the same goal.
They could probably get to a level of f1 but not to rally level without serious intergration into the vehicle and adding sensors for literally everything but I know itll be much harder to get it to be good at rally than f1
Lmao they couldn't get to the level of Lance stroll if they worked on it for 10 years.
Rally would kill pedestrians than at Tesla
the part where linus skipped the most important part is so infuriating
He learned to wall ride from playing Nascar as a kid and reapplied his technique as an adult
How did you guys only hear about the wall ride just now??????
My understanding was the google car could drive very fast and aggressively if told too.
Please remember they did this in a year, imagine what they could do with 5-10 years.
Can't wait until someone tries to do the fake ai thing where it's actually team of 50 people in india.
As someone who has tracked quite a few times. I can take a educated guess and say a lot of the issue must be with AI trying to understand the limits of a car. It truly becomes a feel thing.
Doing a 4 wheel slide is something that is not really binary. It has a lot of variables. 4 wheel slides are needed when you are on track pushing. The problem is everything that a computer is shown is don't lose grip. But if you ever see a race car exciting a corner on full attack the car is sliding while going forward. It goes against what a computer thinks is right which is more grip is good!
If a self driving car used the wall everyone would be calling it an error instead of it being cool.
the cars were made in just 3 months, that being said i think they did pretty decent
i mean, it's not only about scripting IA to learn the track, it's about car setup, controling understeer and oversteer. it's actually way more complicated than avoiding obstacles, it's about driving to the limit of the car. feeling that limit, reaching that limit, but not overdriving and not making stupid mistakes. it's a job you know 😂 this is why only 20 drivers in the world are in formula 1, and why they get super salaries.
This is just an average forza horizon 5 online session
Heard of Formula Student driverless?
About the relation to real streets.
Apart from the fact that you don't have intersections on track, a car should know a track in just the same way as it should know a city (from GPS at least I reckon).
You also have a bit of herd behaviour of just slotting intro traffic (at least for the very start if this evolves to that point).
Car control might be the most difficult for the AI to really evolve in. In emergencies on the road that might also be a big thing to sort out.
Something tells me that this could also better be done with club cars like MX5s or touring cars, cause those races tend to be a lot closer together, but yeah Saudi money...
I watch f1 to watch the goat max verstappen win almost every race
This is probably a really dumb question but can't they use racing videogames to train the cars?
saw a video of an AI driving in trackmaina and its not far from this
Well, AI controlled F-16's are in development, so I don't doubt racing would get there
The only way this will be interesting is if its the same thing that does the chess and go and other games stuff. Since everything else is just completed . We have seen heavily specialised robots doing amazing things in their area. But something else is more impressive. Make that google deepmind thing do this or something
Tbh its mainly bc of the rules, the engeineers have a very limited time to make the software
don't ruin a good story with the truth!?
/s
@@pieterrossouw8596 woops my bad
This just proves how desperate and out of touch they are over there. The drivers are a huge reason people are into F1 type motor sports
Could make cars small enough that Monaco isn't a just a 2 hour drivers parade anymore, but they need people driving then from sims.
No one cares about which program can drive better.
AI racing is a great way to gauge if self driving technology is ready for prime time. Once those cars are able to complete the race with no accidents, then it's finally ready. Until then, hell no.
Racing is a very different environment than driving from place to place - much harder in some ways, much easier in some very important areas, actually.
@@somdudewillson
Sports are the proving ground for all health and safety guidelines tho.
once again... the driver wins.
As someone in the US who has literally grown up at race tracks since 3 weeks old, and I'm now 30, this will never actually work. Part of the thrill of racing is the human element. Even the greatest to ever sit behind the wheel can make mistakes and things drastically change. AI being in control makes it nothing more than WWE wrestling with preprogrammed events and overtakes. Absolutely stupid concept
Sounds like bad testing and bad tech. I mean, DARPA has AI piloted F16's flying around doing dogfights.
I'll be dead and humans will still be trying to perfect self driving. Just not feasible.
I see you Nikita Mazespin... you're not fooling anyone with this "AI driver" crap.
I'm actually early for once.
you didn't needed to spend million designing theses car to figure EA. sorry AI is not smart enough yet
Why would anyone watch this race?
TBH F1 is very expensive hobby already
This stuff is a joke.
906 views in 30 minutes man LMG Clips fell off
Ok so like this is only a half of a joke question response but uhhh
Why don't Thay just ask Forza for they're racing AI lmao like Forza got it down so why can't Thay just translate to this
Wtf is even the point of this ‘racing’????
This autonomous thing would only work as a new a student program like formula student.
No one watching sports cares even slightly about which computer program can drive better.