Designing Around Rage - Extra Credits Gaming
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- čas přidán 16. 08. 2022
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EVERYONE has had to deal with a little tilt now and then, but would it help to let you know that there's a reason behind every death? In fact, failing just may help you win faster! Giving you the right data and feedback to push you further in your game. Join us as we talk about this Game Developer's secret and you'll Never Tilt Again!
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Bruh
500th like!
Thank you
This video made me think about video game addictions it may be interesting if you guys pitch the idea of a video on this topic to your patrons.
Sorry but you don't understand from software games
I don’t “tilt” when I lose, I “tilt” when there is no progress, when I am sent to do the same thing I just did 5 times, when I get the “Our Princess is in another castle” message.
Same. I’m fine dying a few times randomly. It’s when I die and I either lost so much progress or if it was a cheap screw up.
Or when you have to watch the same unskippable cutscene every time
@@coolsceegaming6178 I wasn’t really talking about dying and redoing my progress, I was more referring to filler missions, “Oh look, another radio tower, exactly the same as the other 27 radio towers I had to clear”, “Oh arrest 20 Hellions in Perez Park? You mean like the last 20 I had to arrest for you last mission, and the 20 I arrested for the contact standing just down the street? *Fine* .”
I tilt when I have to do 20 minutes of useless stuff over again just to get one more attempt at the hard part.
@@mesektet5776 damn, it's been so long since I saw someone refer to city of heroes
Another thing is that sometimes you learn later on in a game that you unknowingly made a poor decision that permanently affects you and cannot be undone without forfeiting all your progress and reverting to the time you made that decision. That's frustrating
Yeah, snowball losses are bad, especially when it's the entire build that just doesn't cut it later on. Be it your x-com base focus, or your character decisions.
Many games have some kind of respec option, but even then if that mixes up gameplay much, you might just wanna restart and learn those strategies from the bottom up.
WHY IS EVERYONE SHARING THIS VIDEO WITH ME, I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM EVERYONE JUST USES CHEAP, BROKEN CHARACTERS
Yeah. I don't take gaming that seriously, but when it's blatant (especially in multiplayer games), it lessens the experience.
Hahaha I should send this video to my friends who are bad at games too
@@secretlyditto7716 I'm not bad at games. I've only recently got into trophy hunting and some of the games I'm playing have super grindy multiplayer trophies.
Noobs
@@bernardoheusi6146 Thanks, dude. Just trying to get more active on the platform.
I think this might miss an important point in how frustrating some loses feel, that comes in the form of fairness and agency. Sometimes you might feel like you have lost because of things out of your control, like match making, bad team mates or opponents way out of your league, or power inbalance in equipment or level. Maybe good opponents might act as a datapoint for the player, but lower level in a purely versus game, or unfair match making, don't really give the player much information on what they can do better. It feels like a destined loss and a waste of time and progress.
Chess is a perfect example of that.
Yeah. and sometimes when you actually are skilled enough, or the right level, and /should/ have done just fine, but... lose due to an actual bug. or the absolute worst-possible one-in-a-million-chance RNG. something that should never have happened, but of course, the game treats it exactly the same as any other loss, with all the lost progress or other punishing mechanics that entails.
This can be even worse when there are some added loss mechanic to this. Like, you did not only lose the match. No, you also lost that wager and that booster you activated for added reward and so on. Naturally, every time the stakes are up, the matchmaker screws you over (even if this may not actually be the case). And this in turn can lead to people holding resentment against the general community.
Designers should be try to avoid things that may feel like extra punishment for issues that is out of the control of the player. So generally in team games you should reward individual performance much more than team performance to the best of your ability. And if something like a player gets disconnected, do not pushing them if they honestly try to reconnect to the game. Have the ability to reconnect as a feature and find other ways to get at bad actors. (Bad actors should get punished, however. So as a designer, it is good to learn how to do that too.)
I immediately groaned like openly and loudly when used the -100 points comparing it to +15 I took an insane amount of mental damage
and then random crit... or any random mechanic that just mega punish the unfortunate that is on the other side of the end but i guess that goes on the bad game designing
Time lost is a huge issue. Those long, epic battles can be delightful but losing right before victory can be crushing.
I gave Elden Ring over 20 hours of my life, but never came to enjoy it, and I feel like this video kind of touches on why. I love extremely difficult games that, upon losing, drop me right back into the action to try again, Meat Boy, Prinny Can I Really Be the Hero?, and on and on all do this very well. But the problem with Elden Ring was I kept having to redo long stretches of the same content to get back to where I died. I didn't just lose my souls, though that was a huge kick in the "nut fun" box too if I died before getting them back, but even if I got back to my souls, the tedium and stress of redoing the same long section over and over and over that I've already mastered just for another shot at the part I'm actually stuck at completely drained whatever fun the game could have had for me.
I ultimately gave up when I finally completed a really difficult section and realized that I didn't feel good about finally winning, but just relieved I didn't have to redo the section leading up to it for the 20th time because I had stopped having any actual fun over an hour ago. I didn't give up because I got stuck, I wasn't stuck, I gave up because I realized I was playing to get through the parts which were no fun, rather then playing because getting better WAS fun.
I feel this in my bones. I tried communicating it to my Elden friends and they just didn't get it. Glad to see I'm not alone, and hope you get back to playing the games you enjoy!
it seems to me I dodged a bullet with Alden ring. I'm glad I decided to buy spider man remastered. it feels fun and rewarding with every fight I encounter instead of having a fear of losing I am focusing on how to now end up those bandits, should I stick them or stick something to their ass. pure fun. great insight internet buddy!
And there is nothing wrong with this. You didn’t like the Elden Ring gameplay and that’s ok, not everyone will which is also ok. I’ve been a long time fan of the Soul-like gameplay and Elden Ring feels great to me even when frustrating. It’s just how I am and how the game is. You’ll never see me play a sports game because I just don’t like them.
And that’s ok.
@@zippo504 Some people lose 60$, and 20 hours of their life without anything to show for it, and that's ok...
Other people buy yachts from that money, and that's ok.
Another important aspect of rage is managing your own expectation; if you go into it with the expectation that you’re going to do really well, that makes it very disheartening and frustrating when it doesn’t. I actually didn’t find Getting Over It very frustrating, not because I’m some sort of zen master (I get mad at games just like anyone else) but because I went into it with the expectation that I would be falling all the way down many times, which made it sting less
Definitely, sometimes you have to set your expectations properly. For instance, if you YOLO a boss that is 20lvs stronger than you it doesn't really hurt to lose, you never really planned to win. Alternatively in games like COD zombies where you are supposed to die, once you accept the inevitable loss it doesn't spoil the fun as much.
However, a big factor is also how much you are set back by losing. Do you reset back 5mins or did you just lose the 3hr dungeon crawl. (And the worst is losing a 100+hr Minecraft world to a bug/corruption but thats not really game design or player mindset related) Its definitely a balance to make sure that losing has consequences but isn't crippling, and depending on where on this spectrum a game is affects how easily players can get into a loss accepting mindset.
@@jasonreed7522 totally! Losing immediately when against an absurd challenge isn’t *nearly* as frustrating as losing on something that you feel should be easy for you
I totally get this, I used to play rage games like QWOP and World's Hardest Game in high school and while they did still frustrate me at times, I never really came away from them feeling bad or like I had wasted my time because I never expected to win those games
The only times I tend to rage is when the game simply fails to properly communicate why something didn’t go as planned.
As a HOI4 player, agreed.
The game says the odds are on my favour. Then why am I losing
@@coolsceegaming6178 We can't let us selves be upset that we keep forgetting the keyword here is *odds*
@@coolsceegaming6178 In the case of HOI4 It's largely from clicking the execute button in the battleplan instead of frequently pausing to micro movement and attacks. This is one of the few games in which the bad AI actually impacts your own troops if you let it.
I suspect that the time cost of hitting a Game Over is one of the main reasons a lot of people don't like (or that they think they don't like) RPGs. Nothing like sinking 25 minutes into a boss battle in a Final Fantasy-like game only to get wiped when the boss is down to their last 5%.
RPGs are trending in the right direction in this regard, but I still can't really blame people who say they don't like them because they're long and grindy for this reason.
Nothing worse then when you forget to save for a few hours! Especially in those super immersive RPGs. Going through all of the dialog options again takes you out of the game but companies are hitting a nice balance with Auto Saves.... Dare I say, they're saving the day...
People should be ashamed if they develop like that. Especially the grinding and idiotic difficulty spikes, are you even a person?
Most of my dropped RPGs were dropped because I didn't save and would have to redo hours of game to get back where I was
@@CSDragon looking at you Pokémon! How do you make a game with no auto save anymore!
I enjoy the grind, as long as its an interesting grind, like doing interesting side quests to level up, or discovering new aspects of skills in the game by practicing them outside of the mainline quests. It makes the whole world feel more real, and less linear.
The issue I personally find with losing is the time investment lost. If a game asks you to win 2 games a day, and you lose 5 games in a row that take twenty minutes each, it feels like a waste of your free time. Its why I had to quit Heroes of the Storm, because even though I liked the game, I found myself growing increasingly toxic whenever I got on a losing streak, especially if I felt my losses were my teammates fault
I found Heroes specifically very lenient in that regard. Almost all quests are about "play X games" instead of win, and the rare occasion where you get a "win X games" quest and I was on a losing streak, I used to just play against AI and do the quests superquick for that reason. 0 tilt ever!
Ah yes the win 3 games quest aka play 8 games quest. My solution for this problem is quite easy ignore dailys and just play the hero you like if you are not in the mood for 3 tank or support games.
The very reason why I quit League of Legends. Except I didn't grow toxic, I quit before I did : )
You see this with other game types too. If you spend days creating or finding gear in a game where you can potentially lose them permanently on death, and fail to regain them, it's not the stigma of having lost that stings. It's the nullification of your time spent.
Man Nier Automita did this to me so hard. My first kid was just born so my time was super limited, and I had played nearly an hour of the intro of Nier when I died. The fuckers sent me straight back to the start, all progress lost. Instant refund on that. Talk about tilt I was spitting fire mad.
This doesn't account for multiplayer games where you could do everything perfectly and still lose. Not only is it frustrating, but it is an incorrect data point.
Also, this doesn't account for rewards locked behind winning. Thus it isn't only time you lose out or even money, but exclusive access to special things.
honestly... 9/10 when someone says they did everything perfectly, one can easily point out a whole series of mistakes that contributed... unless you are a top level player that can compete on the professional level... im not going to buy that line - and you know what? those players usually will look through the game to see where they went wrong and what they could have improved
claiming to have played perfectly and still lost is pretty much always refusal to admit mistakes and thus a refusal to improve... it is a mindset that is detrimental to progress and the exact one that will make you rage
Ah, the joy of learning or rather, being told: Your reactions just aren't fast enough for my design-choices and you are thus not allowed to progress or the glorious design choice of your randomly assembled team being a bunch of clowns and thus we designers are allowed to waste your life-time.
Time invested should NEVER result in time wasted.
THATS the biggest rage inducer: In our effort, in a DIGITAL PLANE, our time spent grinding should gain a net-positive SOMEWHERE
This would be why I turned off the damn shark attacks in Raft, and why I've given up considering "no, I don't lose my inventory when I die in Minecraft" to be a cheat. Being forced to retrace your steps in order to do it better (e.g. platformer) is one thing, but being forced to grind the same resources all over again -- let alone with a time limit like in certain survival games with too-punishing mechanics -- is not how I want to spend my time.
Considering the main point of this hypothesis is that losing is a feedback point you guys kinda miss the other big thing designers needs to do. Give feedback on why you died.
People often tilt because they feel like there's nothing they could have done differently. This is especially the case for games with high skill floors like strategy games where it can be difficult figuring out what needed to be done differently. Fighting games also have the same problem. If your fighting games inadequately teaches the mechanics to new players they will often feel like theyre just losing because the AI cheats or ones punch should have gone through so making sure to actually reinforce what mechanic is causing them to loose is important
I’d argue that getting tilted in Mariokart is part of the appeal. Releasing your emotions, whether anger, sadness or happiness feels great afterwards. You shout, scream, curse but everybody is having fun.
That's a good point. There are some games that set you up for a certain amount of rage on purpose. The ones that do it well keep it down to just little outbursts that you can still laugh about. Mario Kart's definitely a good example of that.
It’s similar to Monopoly. Everyone knows (or should know) that getting comically over the top upset at one another is part of the fun.
Another reason why I'm bad at Mario Kart I just don't like getting angry never have and it makes it worse when I'm playing with friends and family although usually my buddies will be fine with me getting frustrated.
Mario Kart has enough depth to be played competitively but has just enough nonsense to protect everyone’s egos. It’s perfect.
This reminds me of why I quit the Eureka side quest in Final Fantasy 14 because that straight up punishes losing by making you lose experience and levels with grinding taking hours.
I think a lot can be gained by the game doing more to actually store and present loss as a data-point. That way the game primes the player's mindset in a way to deal with loss healthily. If the game just says "You FAILED!" and gives you no information on why, then it's setting you up to think of it in a toxic way.
The hardest loses are those we feel we had no control over, or that the player character did not respond properly to the inputs. (Looking at you Assassin’s Creed where the character jumps off a wall rather than climbing)
If I'm having a crappy day and want to play to feel good, I'll set the game to easy mode and turn in to a Golden God for an hour or two.
I agree that really the key is to not make losing annoying.
I want the game to feel like it respects my time. If I lose I don't want to spend a bunch of time doing something I have no interest in. Far too many games are guilty of this. I LOVE hollow knight and one of my favorite parts of the game is the boss fights but man when you die in 30 seconds and it takes 5 minutes just to walk back to it? That's really annoying, annoying enough that I have just put off fighting certain bosses for weeks.
Meat boy is a good example that handles death properly but I think FFXIV does a great job at that too (honestly a lot of MMOs are good at it) when you die in a raid you just start the raid over immediately. It's not uncommon for a team to die within a minute when first learning the fight, because you are supposed to die they make it less annoying. But in other areas of the game where you would only die because you really screwed up and should know better? Kind of a pain to die. It's the game's way of telling you what it is expecting from you.
When I hit that tilt stage, I often question if I'm having fun and want to continue. More often than not, I just give up on the game. This has taught me that there are a number of games with tags that I just avoid completely now because of past experiences.
I think another important thing to note is that the cost of losing isn't always time. I was playing Pyre one day, where the story progresses regardless of whether you've won or lost, and funnily enough, I found that such a mechanic made each match seem wayyyy more important. It wasn't just my time banking on it, it was also the happiness of each of the characters I'd grown to love. Made it hurt a lot more when I lost a liberation rite, right after the character I was trying to free had told me about how he needs to get back to help his family... Sorry Rukey.
I thought tilt was what happen when someone bumped my pinball machine wrong.
So you can tilt while tilting?
This mindset applies to life itself. The journey (learning, overcoming obstacles) is always more important than the destination (winning/losing).
James truly is one with the force 😂
This is why I love Rimworld. It has a diffeculty that says "Loosing is fun". And boy.. it is indeed fun. Nothing more grandeur then seeing your 5 man town get ripped to shreds by a visious horde of murder rabits.
Ate without a table -4
This idea of losing as a metric for the player made me realize that I tilt more when my strategy was almost good enough. When I see that something "should" have worked, but it doesn't, then I call the game "unfair", "broken" or 'bad".
There was a time where I did actually start to be “tilted” when I was doing a mission where if you get spotted you are screwed and I spent 3 days on that and when I did finish it by using the distraction mechanics that I barely used made it easy to bring enemies to other areas and take them down with no witnesses.
Honestly had fun learning how to stealth it.
I generally prefer games where losing isn’t a thing (either creative sandboxes or narrative-focused games), but when games *are* more challenging I appreciate when they give me an option to reduce the difficulty when I’m getting stuck. In Tunic, for instance, I got frustrated by the boss fights (I don’t really have the time to spend hours fighting the same opponent in the same room until I “git gud”), but the accessibility options were clearly presented and gave me an option to turn on invincibility for a while and get the fights over with so that I could get back to enjoying the world and it’s puzzles. In contrast, while I loved the atmosphere and story of Control, I nearly gave up several times when I’d been stuck in boss fights for hours with no real option to back out and try exploring somewhere else. There may have been some difficulty options I could use to ease my way through them, but I didn’t see them. When I did finally make it through them, the feeling wasn’t one of triumph but just tired relief, and they interrupted the flow and mood of the narrative. I know many people see combat and overcoming challenges as the main point of games, but there are many ways to enjoy games, and I appreciate when developers allow the option to experience their creations in different ways.
Having the game over theme be a bop helps too.
I was recently playing battle tech and even though I feel bad about my most recent loss I think it is a good example of good loss design.
1. Pilots of your mechs can get injured or die, but you always have a chance to eject if things get bad and even a kill can result instead in injury. So at the end of my mission of my four pilots 1 retreated, 1 ejected, 1 was injured, and one died even though the injured and dead pilot were taken out of the fight in similar ways.
2. You don't loose your mechs unless you turn that setting on manually and even then only if it was totally destroyed. Your pilot can die and the mech lives to fight again.
3. Every mission has a primary and secondary objective to complete and success only requires focusing on the primary, but even if you retreat after completing part of the primary objective you still get some compensation. The game even has the tip on the loading screen that sometimes the best thing to do is retreat.
So even though I lost a pilot and 2 mechs that will impact the rest of the campaign I can come back later and hire a new pilot, buy/scavenge a new mech and continue enjoying the game. And next time I will have better luck and play better. I and my surviving pilots gained experience from the loss after all.
Precisely the point is that "losing" in itself isn't tilting. But when you fail constantly at the same task and you don't "see" the improvement it gets frustrating. This is specially so in singleplayer games, when you feel like you've hit your limit and can't get any better mechanically. You might say the solution there is to look for alternative ways to confront the obstacle, but if the game is all about letting you experience a fantasy of your choosing (like in RPGs choosing a "build" for your MC), it feels really bad feeling forced to abandon said fantasy just to be able to progress. Like the game's saying "if you're not doing things like *I* want, you better have the skills to back you up".
Another source of tilting and frustration comes from actually outside forces that you cannot control. In multiplayer games, that could be your teammates, when you feel like you've done your best but they dragged you down and you can't really "learn" anything from that experience... even if you actually can, it's just too hard to see beyond what _others_ could learn instead. Another force could be your internet connection or your computer hardware making things harder than they should, and developers have nothing to do in that but the player still gets frustrated, because "there's nothing they could do, nothing they could learn", the only solution is to somehow have more money to buy better gear and not everybody can do that.
What I'm trying to say here is that the video pointed out some factors and raised some arguments that are actually helpful, but player context is usually much more complex than just the game design, so stopping people from tilting is never an easy "just take this advice and never tilt again" kind of thing. It has to do a lot with player mentality and frustration tolerance, some people tilt a little and give up for a while before challenging the obstacle again; while others keep going until they reach their limit and stop trying forever. Game designers shouldn't strive to make their players feel bad just for the sake of tilting, but you cannot reasonably expect to make a perfect experience for everyone. In fact, tilting in and of itself doesn't need to be a _bad_ thing, since some people use that feeling as fuel, to try and get better so they can stop feeling like that, or to take the chance to relax and stop playing games before it becomes an addiction. Don't try to *stop* the tilt; rather, try to _control_ it and redirect it. Like for example, after getting frustrated for losing 400 times to Malenia, switch to a game like Doom and vent out your rage on those poor demons. Or change into sporty clothes and work out a sweat or two. Maybe even do some chores like cleaning the room or washing the dishes; discharge the pent up frustration erasing the dirt from existence. So long as you don't hurt yourself, others or your environment and keep it all in a safe environment like a game world, anything goes.
I remember a CZcams video by Shofu, a Pokemon youtuber, who was absolutely delighted to get slammed dunk beaten in Pokken Tournament. He had won almost all of his beginning matches when the game came and felt like there was little depth. But this player who beat him showed him there was still a lot more to explore when it came to tactics, combos and strategy. Sometimes losing is the best part.
"Losing" in modern games is put in place to give the players a "challenge" to overcome, and in some cases to inflate a games length when cutscenes and long animations can't be used anymore. And then we have camera controls and how they are playing for the other team, constantly shifting so that your character has a great view of their feet, or sky, or in any direction other then that of the enemy that is smacking you.
A few years back I adopted this mind set playing league of legends. Not only did I find that I was having fun again - but also that I was rapidly getting better at the game. Unfortunately I also learned that such a mind set has an upper limit for how much it can sustain a positive experience. A low probability run of games decided by other peoples internet connections set me back about a week of progress and prompted a reaction that led to me not playing it since.
So many physical manifestations of the save icon in this episode. So intense.
Yes! This is really important for all games. As a player who make gimmick decks in YGO and played Evil route in Undertale, I can feel the tilting feeling, but in the end I got better at it and I finally won without losing too much progress
I also think that when fighting a tough boss or battle and you lose a lot, that when you win it feels so much better than just winning the first time.
One of the events I did within a Pokemon community of mine, I make up a mono-specie team and challenge people to fight me. I designed the event to actually make no one care about winning or losing. On my side, I just want to gather win rate statistics, so that my team has 25% win rate or 75% win rate, I still have a lot of fun seeing how well my ideas actually work out. For the challengers, since I made the prize to be a raffle for everyone that participated win or lose, so no one holds back with the fear that they might not be able to beat me. And thanks to that, people have really loved the events.
The part of trying new loadouts and strategies is something I've come to be accustomed to playing War Thunder for over 8 years now, as in this unique case, real-world stratagems can easily translate into the various vehicles of the game, such as taking on the techniques of ace pilots and war-games and taking into account the general strengths of weaknesses of not only your own vehicle, but all your opponents.
Sure, WT isn't super perfect for physics (and whatever else the tilted amongst the players can say in rebuttal, I've been there), but regardless if it's DCS, Ace Combat or even Project: Wingman, it's a satisfying moment no matter what combat flying game you are playing when you master Air Combat Maneuvers, the quirks of your particular aircraft of choice and can think three or four steps ahead of that enemy pilot and what their plane is capable to engage in a dogfight and take them down.
That let me solo her reference made me obscenely happy.
You guys improved your thumbnails!I like the new look.
I love fighting games, and I can appreciate losing when it is a learning experience. But I tend to get frustrated when I may as well have put the controller down all match for all the feedback I got for my inputs. This tends to be a matter of the game not teaching or clarifying recovery options, leading to a situation where may as well just not get up.
This channel has taught me so much
Idk about that. Sometimes there is no lesson to be learned. It's not all about self reflection and statistics. Sometimes you have to know when you're beat and you have to know when the best move is not to play.
This is a great way at reframing failure in real life as well, as feedback to change your approach rather than punishment.
I'm used to losing. Am a loser. Games used to celebrate us losing with fucking fan fare. The loss jingles, the "Game Over" screens with the detailed art, and forcing you to wait some time before the controller is responsive again so you can hit start or X or w/e and try again. There's two ways of measuring whether losing is worth your time. If the game lets you get back into the action fairly quickly, like in Hotline Miami, or it's "You Died" and all you have to do is hit X and have a small wait time before round 244, then it's encouraging you to keep going. If it sets you back 30 minutes or you reload a save and all your items are still used and your equipment damage or some other time waster, you've now entered "fucking around territory". One wants me to keep playing so I win, the other fucks around with my free time. Option one gets quick save and quick load keybound to left click and right click, the other gets tossed into the bin.
Also, is completely the reason why I stopped playing anything that requires teammates and the like to win. I don't feel like wasting time in a game that a teammate throws because they're in a bad mood and it fucks over 4 other people. If my success is dependent on someone else knowing what they're doing and executing it competently, it's going into the bin.
The reason why so many people, myself included, have a rule not to "tilt queue" (ready up for a game while tilted) is simple and biological. Anger causes the brain to enter a state of arousal. Not like that! But also, not entirely unlike that, either. Memers of the world rejoice, for post nut clarity is real, and it happens for a reason. While the arousal is different it does cause similar effects. A state of arousal causes higher reasoning to become significantly impaired. After leaving a state of arousal you do think more clearly. That does lead us back into the perils of tilt queuing.
When you're angry you're not thinking clearly. You're not processing things as quickly or having the same level of reasoning or the same breadth of strategy as usual. This will usually lead to you performing worse and getting angrier over time, further impairing your ability to play as well.
Just set the controller down and watch some CZcams videos or Netflix. It'll be okay, you just gotta get yourself out of that angry funk.
I have the most vivid memory of when I was young. I was playing pokemon heart gold on my DS. I had failed beating one of the elite 4 members like 8 times and by the 9th I snapped my ds in half.
So many people need to learn this lesson about life in general, not just games.
I don't really tilt much in games probably because I generally see losses as data points, but I can get weary of a game if I find myself unable to overcome any particular point of a game despite spending a significant amount of time on that one point. The last time this happened was getting stuck in the tutorial to Soma. I never figured out how to leave the tutorial, put down the game, and never looked at it again.
This makes a good point. I don’t play games simply to win. I play games for the story, gameplay, characters and other stuff. Winning’s just the icing on the cake.
If a lose state is intended to be feedback, its important that the player be able to understand why their solution didn't work. Telling someone "no that's not a good way to do this" doesn't help unless there's something indicating what a good way might look like. This is a big problem in fighting games, where you don't always know why you lost or what strategy would have fixed the problem. It's often unclear if you had a failure in execution or a failure in strategy -- did I drop my combo there because those moves just don't link the way I thought they do, or did I drop my combo because I misinput something or was a few frames late on the button press? When I was getting smoked in the corner, how could I have ever known when their pressure was unsafe and I could have hit a button to take back agency?
NFT Ape Escape gave me psychic damage.
I feel that some of this may just be neuro-chemical in nature:
Rejection dysphoria is a very real thing and is much more prevalent in those with ADHD. And I kind of assume that those with ADHD are pretty represented among the more hardcore gamers.
are you telling me not to rage, me Me I NEVER RAGE , I ALWAYS HAVE FUN
Extra Credits: Makes video about preventing Tilt
War Thunder: *”Ima have to stop you right there”*
4:05 very good point and also a nice throwback to OW1 in the early days. I put a dent in my previous table cuz of that damn hook hahaha
Here's the thing: my reaction to dying over and over in Dark Souls is completely different to my reaction losing in League if Legends. It's all about PLAYER AGENCY.
Once agency is removed from the player, losing becoming incredibly frustrating and tilt becomes real. If I die to the Silver Knight archers in Anor Londo, that death is on me and is 99% my fault. You could argue that encounter is poor design, but I still have agency within that encounter. If I have an afk/trolling/griefing teammate that not only wastes my time but also tries to punish me by forcing me to sit through a lost game... that is an issue of having little to no agency.
The less agency you have over a loss, the more tilted you are.
There is one game that has a tagline LOSING IS FUN. it featured on this channel a few times. DF! Best game ever. Taught me so much.
Thank you for the video.
If only it were this simple. Tilt for some is much more than a mindset change. I'm well aware of what causes my tilting but it's basically unavoidable in a number of games for me unless I completely stop caring about the game itself (which then loses a lot of the enjoyment for me) or just never play them (which is quite a few games).
The specifics are interesting, however. For me, I get tilted much more often in non-consentual PvP scenarios. I'll get tilted more in something like Elite: Dangerous pirate taking some cargo versus dying a lot in a Battlefield match. I'll also get tilted more if I'm being juggled in a brawler versus still losing but not without me putting up a fight. I think it stems from a feeling that the other people don't respect me as a person and are willing to remove my agency and cause me to feel helpless for their own enjoyment, which I very much take personally. Another path comes from making dumb mistakes in the presence of other people that triggers a strong SHAME response that can cause tilt.
I'd like to think I'm not alone in this. I'd love to have a way to mitigate this that didn't feel like I was letting the bullies win (like perma-quitting the games that can trigger tilt, or just taking it with a smile, metaphorically). Unfortunately knowing the cause is only half the battle, and I can't seem to win this war.
yeah forcing PvE players into a PvP situation (or vice versa) is in my opinion a massive design sin... it is simply not a way the player wants to play
Infinite combos will almost certainly exist... only way to avoid them is to just not play against the option. Or play against non-randos who share in your belief in not using "cheap wins". (Personally, I try to avoid cheap wins in most things because it removes the fun for me. I might use one to restore balance or steal a final KO if it's my only real option, but I generally try to avoid it.)
thats why edibles are the best anti tilt thing i own
In the Elden Ring trailers especially the live action ones, they say “May death never stop you”. That’s the whole point of “losing” in games. To learn from each death and rethink your strategy. Whether it’s beating Malenia, Blade of Miquella, or even a sub boss in a totally different game.
this all works in an environment where the random effect is reduced.
In hearthstone you reach a point when you lose because of a draw or random results that are bad.
I also would like to see a focus on "tilting as a design tool" in games like Getting Over It. Or the exploration in souls games which for me is the best component of the games, but it does feel that some traps/ambushes are meant to crush you the first time and then have you progress again, changing your mindset and maybe forcing you to explore another way.
Something similar happened on elden ring with the knight at the start or margitt, walls of difficulty that act as tutorial tools to tell you go and explore, get stronger and then come back. Or with Genichiro on Sekiro
Plot twist: Unfortunately, Matt has misread in his enthusiasm and accidentally summoned Let Her Solo Me...
Me: dies
Game: "You Lose!"
Also game: "Good luck spending 10 minutes just getting back to where the fight was! Oh, not to mention another 10 so you can farm a consumable that makes the boss fight easier that you lose all of every time you die!"
my true tilt has always being; losing beyond your control, take MTG arena for example
make an strategy
test that deck
lose because you only draw 2 lands in 6 turns (unable you to even test that strategy)
i learned nothing with that lost and that leave me with the feling that i only wasted my time because of RNG, that truly tilt me
I for one don't enjoy games where I have to change my playstyle because designers want me to "experience differenent paths". I want to use and do what I like, what feels good to me. I hate beeing in an min max environment where group play only works when one has the fotm something.
Feedback is king, I just picked up Two Point Campus on GamePass, and the cartoony style lets you really see what's wrong without needing the overlays (though they are welcome). People walking like Zombies? Probably need more accessible dorms and a coffee shack. Piles of litter? Maybe put a bin in that area.
No Blizzard devs have seen this video yet. Can confirm.
Woah, it's been a while since Extra Credits has uploaded an Extra Credits video
We usually drop an Extra Credits Episode every other week.
@@extrahistory There wasn't one two weeks ago tho, so it was kinda jarring that the last one was over a month ago.
I enjoy extra history so I'm not mad or anything, I was just surprised.
Great video!
I just started playing League again and CZcams recommended me this… oh the irony XD
This video answers a few of my questions about how to manage and grow (in terms of taking breaks by gaming) while dealing with severe anxiety that then gets generalized to gaming anxiety (I'm not an expert, but this is just a thing I presume lots of people experience?).
My greatest anxiety in complex fps and shootemups in general is that if I lose once, that's *the* sign that I'm not good enough to make progress in the game so I'm bound to keep losing. Although this is not exactly what this EC vid is getting at, it looks like one positive output from the experience of losing is to look at what I did to get so far and learn what it is that killed me/made me fail the mission. I KNOW those are obvious but now I know that some game design can HELP me figure that out and strategize *even a little*, and I don't necessarily have to settle for non-violent games to enjoy brief escapes into puzzle amd strategy solving.
I mean, take SUPERHOT. I think the game design was challenging and aesthetic and there are plenty of reasons to enjoy it, but it also allowed for a learning curve through the game mechanics; or my personal favorite Portal; and so-on-and-so-forth plus hundreds of games in multiple genres that do the same.
So yeah, thanks Extra Credit for highlighting, among other things, how helpful games can be and the importance of game design!
This is why Elden Ring bosses also feel so bad in comparison to other souls game bosses. Their immense health pool, paired with their move sets that only infrequently let you safely get a hit in (especially if you use big weapons) mean that since even successful attempts on late game bosses can take up to 20 minutes (looking at you, Fire Giant) dying to them is disproportionately frustrating.
Hopefully the DLC will have actual good bosses.
Loving the thumbnail change
This explanation helps me understand why after 7 hours of trying to pass the same level in Celeste, I still enjoy playing it... Because each death only sets you back a little bit and you keep learning more about the game while you play :)
oh man yeah - celeste is so incredibly good at keeping you motivated...always dangling that victory one step closer each try until you finally snatch it!
and celeste is also brilliant in letting you experience how much you have actually improved at the game
i dont think im a good platformer player - but celeste managed to train me and help me improve to the point that i managed to get to the top of the mountain, even past some crazy obstacles...and it was glorious (even if i am still annoyed at the wind and clouds XD)
Some veteran players do in fact beat down on new players all day, its called Smurfing.
here's my tilt moment from not too long ago:
Shovel Knight, new game +, Tower of Fate: ascent boss rush
no troupple potions (had to use them earlier in the level), and I didn't want to leave the level to get more, because I had grabbed the few music sheets I had forgotten the first time.
Towards the end, I (usually a very quiet gamer) was shouting to the point where my throat hurt.
Eventually gave up, tried again a couple days later, and got through it no prob (after getting the potions again).
Just goes to show that sometimes, trying to brute force it... isn't good.
This turned out to be on a completely different topic than I had assumed. I thought this video would be about the techniques designers use to make you spend more money on microtransactions by appealing to your anger. Pairing up paying and f2p players in certain games intentionally so that the whale gets to feel good, and the f2p might want to buy stuff to equalize the playing field, etc.
Older audience: remember the time games needed many floppy disks to install.
Younger audience: why do the characters have the save icon in their hands?
In my experience, tilting often comes from when there is a mismatch between what the player thinks is the win condition and/or how to achive it and what the win condition actually is.
Because in such a case, the player will work towards something only to not see any progress for their effort and they don't know why.
This can be either due to the player misunderstanding something, or the game not communicating it properly. Typically it's the former, but it's kind of the responsibility of the game to get the player on the right track by making misunderstandings easy to clear and unlikely to happen in the first place.
Whenever I get tilted at a game I try to review everything and find out what exactly is required in order to win.
And honestly it's kind of hard to legitimately get mad or tilted when you know exactly what you need to do in order to progress even if you're still frustrated while doing it.
The only times when I get legitimately tilted is when I know exactly what needs to be done to succeed, double checked to make sure there I don't misunderstand anything, but the requirements are way beyond what I am willing to do or learn to be able to do. Honestly even then I don't really tilt because at that point I just don't play the game.
What point is it playing a game that actively requires you to do something you despise just to be able to play it?
Story, lore, realism, are some of main aspects for me to play games.
Overwatch is interesting in a sense that my goal is not just to win but to win with a hero I like playing. The game encourages meta team composition becoming dull rather quickly and making many heros obsolete. The problem is I can't get feedback if Im doing something wrong the hero or if the game wants me to give up the hero I like most until it gets buffed
We play to overcome other players. The closer the matchup the more exhilarating it is to crush your enemy.
Sorry, I stopped mid-vido to point out the obvious:
Proximal development zone. Or whatever it's called in English. The sweet spot in learning where it's neither too hard nor too easy. The difference between learning multiplication when you don't even know what numbers are and learning multiplication inbetween two derivations.
In singleplayer, that's fine. There are difficulty options, cheats if nothing else, or you reach that escort mission at the end of Psychonauts and remember you would rather do you taxes. But in multiplayer, the difficulty is set by other players. I've played exactly one game of Wesnoth and not only got crushed basically early game, but the other players complained that I was taking time trying to figure out what units even did.
Tilting happens when you have positively no idea what the game / other players expect from you, and coding your own fast Fourier transform will feel both more meaningful and rewarding than slamming your head at a video game. And if I want a challenge I have that thing called life.
Fully agree, and while i don't know the English term for the sweetspot of difficulty needed for growth its clearly a real phenomenon. I usually explain it in exercise terms where you won't get stronger if you only lift pillows, but you also won't get stronger if you only try to lift things so heavy you can't budge them. Technically their will be some growth but is certainly won't be efficient or healthy.
Same logic definitely applies to videogames and their skill curves, and why online competitive isn't fun. (When other players are 100% responsible for the difficulty then you will face people so far out of your league you will have more fun doing your taxes)
@@alexeihelmbock8498 what about a Dirac Impulse function?
I largely gave up on fighting games because it felt impossible to get better at them. What am I doing right, and what am I doing wrong? I have no idea; every opponent curb stomps me no matter what.
I was kinda hoping for a Dwarf Fortress reference. It's been a long time.
nice ref !
If games were just about "winning" then you'd boot up a game, get to the title screen then see a prompt that says "press A to win game". You press A and roll credits, good job you did it! Naw its more about the journey. And failing is part of any journey. I used to tilt pretty hard but as I've gotten older I take a more introspective approach and try to identify where I went wrong. Was it a bad judgment call? Was it a bad load out? A mechanic I wasn't aware of? Or maybe the other players just had your number and worked you, and nothing you can do but tip your hat because it was their stellar play that won it for them.
I love Celeste, but I never raged as hard as in the final chapter in a part that had some pufflefish that you had to jump onto.
Spent a week stuck in that part until I finally got past it, never felt so good.
The last parkour didn't even made me mad, I was just sad it was almost over 😢
The most frustrating thing for me is that when I lose or die at a game makes me feel like the designer themselves are saying we don’t want you to play like that and punish you for thinking of such a great strategy that you try to come up with just to have it blow up in your face for example hearthstone you’ll have a much better time playing Hearthstone if you play the way the designers want you to anyone who hates morlock decks and try to build their own strategies should know how I feel I hate any type deck in any game but designers want you to pay them because they put so much time in them so they make them better than all the other decks wow thank you so much designers and this can actually be said about almost any game no matter what game you’re playing designers only have a few ways for you to play and if you don’t play it theyer way well get used to rage quitting and destroying your stuff and feeling like the entire world is against you with the little pressures time you have ever week
YEAAAAH NEW VIDEO
As the Dwarf Fortress wiki elegantly puts it: "Losing is fun!"
While this is what I do, I eventually reach a time where I'm out of ideas and the skill doesn't seem to grow. (there is no difference in feedback in missing a roll by 0.5 seconds and by 0.1).
So that is another thing that keeps me going: different levels of success and failure. I'm currently playing Spider-Man since its pc release and this game is littered with micro-wins and micro-failures. In this game in particular that is because there are multiple ways of disposing of bad guys (Web them stuck, throw them off buildings, beat them up), different ways to get them to a 'defeatable' state (mainly webbed up), and different types of micro-failures have different effects (grapple, stun grenade, critical hits). This game is not about winning, it's about looking good while doing so.
yeah I might do the astral projection thing but unintentional and I do it in my sleep and share it with the designers when I think it's necessary to see if they want to use it. but most the time I'm seeing it through other people's eyes I had no control over what they do and it doesn't last very long.
thx