The Problem With Chrome Piston Rings / What Makes A Drill Bit Good Can Make Your Piston Rings Better
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- čas přidán 16. 02. 2023
- The chrome on a bumper is the same chrome plating that is used on some piston rings, especially on oil rings. While the hardness and durability of chrome has great benefits, it also has some drawbacks - incompatible with Nikasil, harder to break-in, etc...
"Dyno" Don MacAskill from Shaver Specialties Racing Engines and Lake Speed Jr test out Titanium Nitrided rings - the same gold colored coating used on drill bits. The results even surprised these dyno veterans!
For the details on the break-in procedure used in this video, check out this link: • Don't RUIN Your Engine...
For more on "Dyno" Don, check out his blog: www.dynodonnymac.com - Auta a dopravní prostředky
Lake and Don are like watching twins talk in these vidjias they do together😁🤣 It is great to see the enthusiasm for this topic, because it is definitely rare to see.
VERY INTERESTING project & I completely agree about chrome-plated rings. I NEVER use them.
PLEASE continue updating us as you progress with this project.
Also, it would be VERY INTERESTING for you to give comparisons to other TOTAL SEAL treated
piston rings. For example, this new Titanium Nitride PVD Ring vs TOTAL SEAL C-47 coated ring.
The TOTAL SEAL C-47 coated ring has been my choice for all of my recent engine builds.
I appreciate your consideration & hope to see other TOTAL SEAL Piston Ring comparisons.
THERE ARE TOTAL SEAL PISTON RINGS & NOTHING ELSE!!!! 🙂
Best regards,
Ben
This coating is just for oil rings, so we are not using it on compression rings.
@@TotalSeal OK & THANKS for your considerate reply.
I am anxiously waiting for your follow-up videos on the Titanium Nitride PVD rings.
Best regards,
Ben
YOU GUYS ARE MAKING SAME GREAT VIDEOS ! Back in the early 70's i worked at gm dealer ship we replaced a sbs with a new gm oem engine i think it has a 283 i know it had chrome rings . after about 2 weeks the car was still using oil the owner brought it back to us . my service manager told me to go out behind your shop with him and take the air cleaner off and the fan belt off . he then pulled on a can of comet kitchen cleaning out he rev the engine and started shaking it into the carb . i think he used the whole can . i couldn't believe he did it . he then told my it was a trick they did for years even on brand new cars . the car did stop burning oil . l always wondered how much other damage it did to the engine .
Thanks! We've also heard of the Comet or Borax trick on chrome rings. Certainly not the best thing for the rest of the engine.
I love these videos. Please Lake! Let somebody else talk! You have one of the best dyno guys in the world! Let him speak. Still surprises me that Dyno Don doesn't prefer an actual throttle lever. I know I can normally feel it when something isn't right! I guess it's just preference. It looks like he has that dyno stacked with everything!
I believe lake knows as much as don so stop 😢.
I am truly enjoying learning and listening.
Thanks!
I'd be curious to see the effect on the oil longer term.
Those tests are in the works already.
What would be awesome is to get individuals like Don, Vic Hill, and others to break down the basic differences between say a dirt track engine, and a pavement engine like a pavement late model or the engines in the top three series of Nascar if it is possible to reasonably compare the two disciplines.
Good idea
Great videos gentlemen! It’s awesome to see you two educating racers and enthusiasts. One question I think is important to the reduction in friction? What oil where you running? Was the break in oil changed after the rings seated? Again great work, nice reference to the water and oil temps used for a baseline. Thanks
We use Driven BR40 for all the tests. It contains no friction reducers, so it allows us to see any changes in friction due to the hone, coatings or ring design.
great video fellows
Thanks!
So was the hone job the same values as last time?
Yes. Re-honed to the same values. We check the cylinders with the profilometer at each rebuild.
Good Tech with Lake and Don.
Is this going to be affordable Technology for regular Engine Builders?
Thanks for sharing.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks! And, YES, these new coatings will be available soon at reasonable prices.
They work grt folks
Thanks!
This test is confusing. I saw in the comments you said the hone was the same compared to the last test with the chrome rings. What about the top and 2nd rings? Were they reused or replaced with the exact same rings new? Same end gaps? So many questions. I thought the oil rings job was solely to scrape oil, but the video is eluding that they actually are holding compression that is getting past the 1st and 2nd ring?
Do you know what GM puts in the ls engines. I know they last forever and don't hurt the bore
Chrome faced oil rings. It is not bad. The TiN coating is just better.
Just out of interest: having worked on old vehicles, I've noticed that USA and Japanese decorative chrome was never as good as British. It was almost impossible to see any grinding or buffing marks on British chrome, where the others were quite visible, even with the naked eye. The Japanese was particularly bad; a day in the rain and corrosion appeared. Weeks in the wet and muddy on British before the slightest blemish appeared. The British were triple plated; Cu, Ni, Cr.
Lake, what is the difference in the friction coefficient of TiN vs Chrome Plating? Would you say the percentage of torque gain is comparable to the % difference in friction coefficient? Quantifiable data from Tribological methods. Good stuff. I like seeing the chrome plate alternatives.
The TiN has a lower coefficient of friction compared to chrome, so that is the reason for the increase in power.
Does Chrome not have problems with galling?
Have you heard of DLC(diamond like carbon) coating?
Yes, we've been working with DLC and other PVD coatings for 20 years.
How about that coating on the top ring?
We have an even better coating for the top ring.
So are that available and how much more are they
They are currently available as special order only, but we will have new sets by the end of 2023 that include them standard.
All I need is for Total Seal to make an 87.5mm or 88mm 1.2mm gas ported top ring. Because the only ring sets I can buy for my engine have chrome top rings
Hey Brad Mcgrath, I suggest...when you rebuild the engine...replacing the pistons.
I had JE Pistons make a custom set of their ULTRASeries. I gave them all the required information & the specs about the TOTAL SEAL Rings I was going to use.
Granted, the "custom" pistons were more expensive than off-the-shelf variety. BUT for
what I've already invested in the engine, it was reasonable & I have exactly what I need.
More-so, I'm no-longer restricted by the type of piston rings I can use.
Best regards,
Ben
Contact the tech department. We can probably supply 1.2mm gas ported rings in those bore sizes.
@@duygukayhanisaskank4915
In a future more serious build, that wold be my only option, as there are only cast stock replacement pistons available for this engine.
The biggest issue is the bore size. It's bigger than most of the Jap 4cyl engines, but smaller than everything else.
Ideally I'd like to use rings less than 1mm
@@TotalSeal
I'm in Australia, When it get to the point of needing the rings, what is the bet way to go about ordering them?
@@bradmcgrath358 Contact Performance Wholesale in Brisbane. They are our Australian distributor.
That’s all good and fine. How is the average back yard joe going to get this done? I love this stuff but how am I going to do this? I don’t have the big money for all the stuff to be done. Is there anything you can do to get it done for the weekend guys to have a sweet motor like that?
what do you mean?
It looks to me like total seal is intending to sell these rings.
@@bradmcgrath358 the work to get the block done! Be fine just put the hone in and done . The work they do is not cheap and have some high dollar tools.
@@richardmoerke9329 Again, I don't understand what you're saying. It doesn't cost much to have the cylinder honed.
None of these technologies are out of reach for the back yard engine assembler. A good machine shop can easily afford the correct tools to get the cylinders honed correctly, and the piston rings are not expensive, especially in light of how long they last and how much power they can deliver.
@@TotalSeal cool fine and dandy. BUT!!!! Again! Sorry but if backyard man wants to do this at home with what he has for tools how does he get the job done on the walls of his motor without all the fancy stuff you have in your Machine shop? I love the ring ideas and all but if I go to freshen up a motor with rings and bearings how do you get it done at home? I don’t have the thing to check the walls and so and I don’t think most guys at home doing this will. Unless this will make it easierfor us to do it at home so we don’t have to go to the shop. Lol ! Yeah like that is going to happen.
Where are Perflon Rings when we need them
Is any manufacturer uses cobalt steel to make piston rings? Cobalt drill bits are way better than Ti-N coated drill bits.
No, but Tool Steel with PVD coatings are used.
Lake, I am sure if that engine was one of those high dollar sprint car engines, you would not get close to that dyno😁
LOL
I wonder how many people got shanked by Slick 50 ?
I guess I can afford the best. My pro ls piston just arrived end they are crome face. 🤷♂️
Chrome faced oil rings are the standard
@@TotalSeal it was Supposed to say can't. But. I just text summit to see if I could Exchange for your gas ported rings. If I put as much Effort intomy health, as my Motors. I would be friggin Bat MAN lol
I support chrome. Those cheap normal rings last maybe 30k if you lucky. Chrome easy 300k.
These new coatings can outlive chrome!
So you're telling us that as you made more runs the torque output increased. So had you left the chrome rings in and you made more runs what would have happened? No real need for you to answer that.
The chrome rings already had been run in.
Chrome rings were originally designed for engines that were going to eat dirt bottom line answer.
I've got a 50cc piston.
Does the chrome ring go on top or the black ring go on top???...2 groove piston
Enough corny music, hyped up talking style and constantly talking over each other 🤦♂️