THIS is the HIDDEN "Gasket" in your Engine
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2024
- We all know motor oil is a lubricant, but did you know that it also functions as a "gasket" to help your piston rings seal?
In this deep dive into cylinder bore surface finish, "Dyno" Don MacAskill and Dr. Mark Malburg review the experimental hone created by Brad Lagman at QMP Racing. If you are into engine technology, this is 20 minutes that you won't regret as Dr. Malburg explains how a profilometer works and how to interpret the results.
#traceboss #digitalmetrology #engine #enginebuilding #pistonring #horsepower - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I was doing this 20+ years ago with metal forming dies.
What made the demand was the galling of metal being stuck onto the dies during forming.
Different tool steels and carbides were tried and different coatings were tried.
Different lubricants also were trialed.
The best final result was a plain cobalt carbide with no coating and a 2 step polish finish which left a plateau / valley surface.
Thanks for sharing!
How many cups of coffee did Don have that morning ? 😅 He was fired up!
Quad shot Americano, LOL
@TotalSeal We could be friends, Espresso makes the earth go round.
Great stuff guys. A big shoutout to Don for breaking down the information so the general person can understand.
Our pleasure!
This exchange of cutting edge technology is very much appreciated. I really enjoy your videos. I am working with my engine builder to incorporate these recommendations into my ongoing new build. Thanks again for educating us.
Glad to help
Great Report.... FYI, this is how F1 has been getting multiple races with consistent power from there engines for the last 10-15 years. This idea was also done with some NASCAR teams as far back as 2001. Glad someone is putting it out there for all to know.
I'm not sure of this, but I believe Toyota has done some level of this concept in many of their stock engines.
Absolutely!
I think oil is still the weak "seal" on the cylinder wall. Mostly of cars today use a low tension piston ring design. They have thinner piston rings. That is why nowadays fuel dilution is often found in several modern engines, especially direct injection ones
New engine oils are using 0W8 and probably won't last long with fuel dilution. I don't run 0W20 in anything I drive even. I want that 30 or 40 weight oil at operating temperature to provide extra cushion especially when an engine starts to wear .
Love watching this stuff. Always learning. Excited to rebuild another engine. Thank you for sharing!!
Thanks for watching!
Love listening to all this technical stuff. Thank you gentlemen keep it going
Thanks, will do!
Lake, I love your passion for your work! It's fascinating and highly useful information, to be sure, but, when one sees a man with that kind of passion, it's inspiring!
Thanks for that!
Good job with the explanation and description. A valuable video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Would be interesting to compare these new surface finishes to the honing finish for the old chrome rings.
Very different. Old chrome ring finishes were just rough. No plateau.
no speed channel fake excitement needed boys. anyone that follows total seal is here for the brainy stuff. great info as always... too much grown men bouncing up and down about surface finish.
I agree. The over the top excitement is a bit much. Not as bad as many but still too much.
Couldn't agree more. Like watching a condescending version of the Three Stooges. And listening to the "builder" repeatedly talk about the guys that "don't get it".....while crossing his arms and bouncing up and down...unwatchable.
Agree, I'm outage here.
I love deep tech like this, become one with the hone marks 😅
@@jeffallen3382
Haha kinda reminds me of all the Saturday morning car and truck shows on TV 20yrs ago
I have Learn a Bunch about Cylinder Finish From this Guys, you are Pioneering on this Tech is amazing what you guys have come up with, Literally you are leading in this field
Thanks!
Just three passionate dudes talking about engines. Love it. Just continue to refine and learn the best presentation methods. There is some talking over each other. Awesome information overall!
Thanks!
Good afternoon.Thanks for the video.
I really want you to speak briefly and to the point.
Fascinating discussion. Implicit in "ring seating" discussions seems to be the notion that the peaks and valleys are an essential aspect of operation rather than just an artifact of manufacturing. I'm not entirely clear on why this needs to be the case. What if the cylinder surface and the cylinder facing surface of the rings were perfectly smooth? Of course from a manufacturing perspective this cannot happen, but these discussions all seem to hint that trying to pursue this is not a desirable goal. Why not? Also in the video they show a cross hatch pattern on a newly honed cylinder surface. I was under the apparently false impression that the honing/boring would leave the peaks and valleys aligned vertically, i.e. with the direction of piston travel. I don't see how a pattern that isn't exclusively vertical would help with seating. What am I missing?
Hey guys. Your channel just popped into my feed. Didn’t know you had one. It’s been years since I rebuilt an engine. But I always used your piston rings. Have you done a video on Engine Restore additive? I used it once and it worked for me. Thanks. Watching the oil filter video now.
Welcome aboard! Thanks for the suggestion on the Restore additive.
You guys are cool. Awesome info keep it coming
Thanks! Will do!
Great information and much appreciated. What is used to create the surface finish you are talking about?
A 140 grit diamond followed by a 600 grit CBN can get pretty close to that finish.
So much knowledge here which I appreciate these guys sharing, but you really need to work on your delivery- it's very confused and haphazard, without any clear explanation of what an older surface looks like, what the new one looks like, or what the image means. If you guys happen to know a teacher, having them consult on these videos may be helpful. Do you story board or script these before doing them?
Again, I am appreciative that Total Seal and these very smart fellows are willing to make these videos at all, but I'm also sure they want to make them as understandable as possible.
Thanks for the feedback.
Thinking that a to scale illustration of a honed bore cross section, would be more representative and easier for people to visualize / understand.
I’m curious if a burnishing with a set of substitute rings, before final cleaning and assembly, to initiate “break in”, would have a benefit?
Too much fuking around when you can use fine grit stones on the hone in 2 minutes on each hole.
I love your videos. I found one statement contractictory though that possibly requires clarification; that is that the thin rings have an overall lower friction coefficient when my understanding is that the same cylinder pressure applied to a thinner-ring produces the higher ring friction per contact area of the ring - simply because the contact area is a lot smaller (which would make more sense). That is, unless you mean static ring tension which I would understand although I am sure this is meaningless in a running engine. ?
Great question. The difference here is that piston rings operate in a dynamic and lubricated environment, so the “normal rules” of friction don’t paint a clear picture of what actually happens.
Don’t try to dumb it down for us. We are here for the science and sophisticated analysis.
Great video
Thanks!
What is the scale difference in the depth of the grooves vs. the width?
Anyone ever tried a roller burnisher to perform the plateau process? Seems like it would work well by giving a flat top to the peaks while also work hardening the material in that zone.
So if these thin rings aren’t sealing when I turn it over by hand is there a factor or % I should subtract when watching turning torque…?¿?
Hi Lake, I have been watching may of your videos. I was wondering if laser cut valleys for oil retention. How deep would the valleys need to be? Could this be good solution to a glazed cylinder. The parts are fully matted, but with no oil retention the seal is poor, but would not necessarily mean the cylinder is out of round. Fiber galvo laser cycling it up and down would be a bit of a challenge. Could there be a optimal pattern over just the X, maybe dots like fine braille.
Can surface treatments (WPC), abradable coatings (line2line), gapless piston rings, and new honing processes be used in conjunction with each other to achieve efficiency and sealing?
There are some combinations of those technologies that can be very beneficial. Stay tuned!
Steve Morris showed a skirt coating that wears in to the shape of the bore, supposed to stop piston slap. Heard about it?🤔🤔🤔
@@sacrificialrubber779yep. It’s the Line2Line coating. Stay tuned for an upcoming video on that.
l have an engine with 360,000 mi on it but it runs good if I add engine restore to the oil and the cylinder walls are coated with lead and copper or whatever it is in that stuff what is that going to do to the surface finish?.
I have not checked the compression yet and I would be curious to look at the cylinder walls with a borescope. Before I do anything.
My 2618 with a 4 inch bore calls for.004 clearance.I hope it is fine.
so lake speed jr in the past youve talked about adding more viscosity with higher cylinder pressure so does going from 5-30 to 5-40 help lower blowby or whats the best option for adding boost to na motors
Yes, adding viscosity is a good idea when you add boost.
this is why bad injectors are the #1 killer of diesel engines
Yep!
We have had great sealing on our limited dirt modified engines. What we have lacked is the longevity of the cylinder wall finish. We get around 70 to 75 nights before we lose the cross hatch and go to scuffing. This winter, all three of the engines had gone to scuffing. The machine shop switched to some slightly rougher diamonds and we are hopeful that we will get to the 80 night threshold to allow two seasons on a freshen up.
We may need to change oils as the engine wears to keep the ring gasket in place. Any suggestions on that part of the process would be greatly appreciated.
Sounds like you should call these guys…
@mikeg4163 I have visited with the Total Seal folks fairly regularly. As was stated, things are changing very rapidly in this field. We are experimenting with a slightly rougher surface to accomplish an increase in longevity.
Oil technology has also increased phenomenally over the past few years. Staying current is a significant challenge. PRI was a great place to find resources and visit with the players. That's going to be a bigger part of my side gig as time goes on.
Don't you guys run 300+ oil temp? Or is that sprint cars. I forget the unique challeges of dirt modified
@@bwatt1383 it depends on the class rules, but the 305 sprints tend to run hot due to their low compression and running on methanol. They have to run very lean in order to keep it from blubbering. They cook the internals due to the lack of water cooling.
Doug Lee in OK builds 12 qt aluminum pans specifically for this class. That's how he got started in the oil pan business. It was a way to cool the 305 sprints down.
75 nights is quite a run…. Are you running any type of coatings?
All this information is great now how do I use it, where can I get it done, is there anything I can do as a home Rebuilder to use it somehow. This is the second video I've seen talking about a plateaued finish so I guess it's only for a machine shop?
They are talking about the surface finish in the bore of your cylinders, as such it is useful for whoever is machining your engine. In a previous episode they mentioned to start off with a 120 grit diamond stone to get the deep cross hatch 'valleys' (Rvk) which holds the oil, then finish with a 900 grit diamond stone to smooth out the peaks (Rpk). There is also the cross hatch angle, which depends on the length of your stroke (stroke to bore ratio). Go back and watch a few more of their episode to get a better idea.
This type of finish requires the hone and measurement devices shown in the video, so it is best done by a machine shop.
Have you ever considered doing a before and after comparison test of Prolong engine treatment, whether there is better retention of lubrication in the valleys?
There will be a video about that product on the MotorOilGeek channel soon
WHY IS EVERYONE YELLING?
Cringe kid meetup
- Yepp, I just get a kick out of Nikasil bore plating. Where do you draw the line for porosity?!
As far as Nikasil plated cylinders for the two strokes go, Do they also have ridges and deep spots? Inquiring about my 50 cc alcohol motor I know you and your dad love two strokes. I’m out here in Northern California not sure if you know Howard combee
I know Howard! Yes, 2 cycles need valley as well
@@TotalSeal would love to work with you on some 2 stroke ring packages and finishing goes !! Any interest?! I’ll make sure to tell Howard when I seen him in a few weeks at the track ♥️
I was wondering how the stylus could be small enough and strong enough to exact the contour of the scratches.
Talking about the width, i would assume the height or depth( peak to valley distance) would be exagerated on screen vs the width for viewing purposes or am i wrong? He said the valleys were spread out more but still microscopic right? I would love to see some microscopic video of the stylus making its way, dipping and rising, seeing it on a graph is one thing but actually seeing it in the process magnified would be cool.
The "Surface Texture Answer Book" has some great information and graphics in this regard.
That would be cool. Check out this video to see what the surface looks like through a microscope.
What The Heck Happened??? Motor Oil Wear Testing
czcams.com/video/brw9LfZvScw/video.html
another good one lake
Thanks 👍
you discuss the differences in a gas vs alky build, do you have experience with nitromethane fueled engines? if so, how would a cyl finish, etc differ for a nitro application vs gas/alky?
Nitro is a completely different beast.
@@TotalSeal well, of course it is a different 'beast'. that is why I am asking. would you please provide some info for a nitro app? thanks
Perhaps your technology can help us scan the surface finish we get in our rotating liner engine. In our experimental diesel engine, we spin the cylinder to eliminate the metallic friction of the rings. We have succeeded in almost eliminating the piston ring friction, based on dyno testing. The reason is the continuous sliding as well as the unique surface finish. Please let us know if you are interested in collaborating.
Is it possible to hone a Metal Matrix Composite or Fiber Reinforced Metal cylinder like this?
We've not tried this process with those cylinder bore materials.
What about the trick some guys do on internet. 2 stroke oil at 250 to 500:1 ratio? Would that help or do nothing? Maybe lubricate intake valve stems/guides? Piston top ring? DI fuel pumps? I'd like to get your take on this!
A leak down will tell you how good a job you did on your build . 🤞
However , there is a fine line between the expansion forces and heat , seizing your engine under extreme loads .
Break in is critical !
Who does this honing here in Phoenix AZ.? Is it cost prohibitive?
R N R has a Rottler hone
whatever happened with your two ring set up where the bottom ring was a combo total seal ring and oil ring?
We still have that, and this engine at Shaver's runs them.
@@TotalSeal good to hear. Joe gave me one of the prototypes and it was quite an impressive design.
Thats what i learned in high school mechanic class
Awesome
I don't get it. This is OLD information. I did that in prostock back in 1980 when the prostock "standard" was a super fine hone. I didn't like that so I started a 2 step process I called "plateau honing". 1 pass with a coarse stone almost to size and a light pass with a superfine stone or vs vs. This was to lower friction, improve seal and help control oiling the chamber on our hemi. We kept it secret but of course, like all racing secrets, it got out, sunnen knew what we were doing.
Later I tried it on F2000 engines and it didn't work there. They have a terrible fuel wash upper cylinder wear problem that I couldn't solve.
Thanks for sharing
So with liquid power adders, you're setting your motor up more like a "hydrulic pump" instead of a air pump. More fluid movement. Gotcha
Lake Speed Jr. !!
This is why I have been using 2 stroke oil (I got this idea from Lucas UCL) since long time ago, at 0.5% ratio, recently I also tried 1% ratio, and it feels like it doesn’t loose torque at high rpm, although I don’t have a dyno. I know theoretically it might drop octane but 1% can’t drop octane all that much, plus you can always use a higher octane fuel than required to take this factor out of the equation. I wish you guys can make a video with 2 stroke at different ratios to explore the potential influence it can have on an engine in terms of performance.
My friend try Renewable Lubricants Rotary Pre mix. Its completely safe in 4 stroke. Give one of their chemists a call like I did. 2 ounces treat 8 gallons
Or 1 gallon treats 500 gallons
@@CarlosMartinez-pc7je i forgot to say but I only use TCW3 certified which is ashless and cannot harm catalytic converters.
@@davidgruen7423 let me check tomorrow if it is safe for cats.
@@davidgruen7423 I just emailed them I will let you know when I know. But it is the best gasoline lubricant Ive found. If it isn’t then Im switching to your way.
@@CarlosMartinez-pc7je email who? I really want these total seal piston ring guys do an experiment on 2 stroke TCW3 oil because it certainly feels like it has potentials.
That's a 7.3L Godzilla block on the CK10 ?
Thank you so much for these vidoes man! What is your opinion on Liqui Moly Hi Tec engine oil? It is supposed to be good for 25k miles but I change it every 4-5k depending on how much hard city driving I do (supercharged Jaguar XJR with the 4.2 v8, she runs hot in traffic ~218°f but cruises at 212°f)
Thanks for watching!
🤡
I called in to Total Seal the other day and asked what grit ball hone I should use on a motor in our shop. Your tech said 240 grit and run it. I thought that was an old hot rodder trick that is now debunked?
GOETZE
Great instructional video
Glad it was helpful!
@TotalSeal @digitalmetrology
With Rmq at 51% … (super low vs your other presentations) you seem to be relying more than usual on the ‘tenacity’ of the oil to create the bearing-surface with a deep ‘anchor’ of 95µin Rvk to hold it in place
Since this test was done a year ago, May 2023… I’m guessing the results were not favorable??
Curious number tho, and I’m very interested to see how this comes out with that tighter piston to bore clearance and how you can control piston roundness within this envelope.
Rvk 95µin
Rpk 6.8µin
Rz 207µin 😮
Rmq 51%
Ra 31µin
Vs. more normal ‘great numbers’ for a perf NA engine.
Rvk 56µin
Rpk 7.2µin
Rz 159µin
Rmq 87%
Ra 16µin
.
Damn, someone dropped something!! That's gonna cost someone!! ha ha ha
I wonder what these guys figure out that they don't tell people?.. or at least, they only tell "certain" people? Hmmm...
Always staying a step ahead…
Good luck washing 15w-50 off my cylinder walls
Depending upon the type and amount of fuel, even 25W-50 can be washed off the cylinder walls.
1960s technology dry liner tec
The diy guy gets all screwed up watching all this bs, smoke and mirrors. The average diy'er that comes in the machine shop just wants his engine not to burn oil. They get all bugged up about hone finishes and question everything the machinist is doing. All auto companies sell 3 blade glaze breakers, ball hones, plateau hones. They're all good, they sll work.
Bore it, ridgid hone it, run a drill driven plateau brush hone through it 15 strokes with WD 40. Wash it and put it together.
All that info your promoting is for racing! Let the diy'er know that. I'm retired now, but i got tired of amatures telling me how to do my job. And having to explain everything.
Well, there's my rant!
Machinist do appreciate your videos very informative.
This is why I always run twice the amount of recommended oil quantity, I have twice the gasket…
ROFL!! Yes, and twice as thick too!! If you run 10w-30, run 20w-60 instead!! YEEEE HAWWW!! Hell, just dump some 90 weight gear oil in your engine, perfection!! ha ha ha
Must've never experienced the double gasket before...
That's funny ❤
Since most stuff is boosted these days, besides circle track. Why aren’t you working with someone like Steve Morris? He has the new hone! Bigger cubic inches, alcohol, big cylinder pressure, high heat! If anything needs help with cylinder sealing, it’s boosted engines! I’m not talking about a street engine with a tiny blower! I haven’t seen a big horsepower boosted engine get any life out of all these ring advancements! They are usually killed with heat quickly!
Steve is a great guy, and we talk to him fairly often.
its funny that you think steve morris doesn’t deal with these guys
They're talking WEDGE
It is not a gasket it is a seal
Estaría muy bueno traducir en español??
Is this a infomercial. Just get to the point. I gave up.
micro-knurled?
Speed is a terrible drug
ROYAL PURPLE 💜✨👑💯
Care to comment on trying to get rings to come back to life? 😂. I usually like to add a cap or two of dexron down the plug hole of a weak hole, and maybe crank motor with all plugs out, to get that atf to penetrate the questionable ringsets. Then put it back together and let it eat!
Next time please dont interrupt each other
That’s impossible! That’s how they talk to each other.
@@TotalSeal😆!
THE PRIMARY FUNCTION OF OIL IS COOLANT !!!! NOT LUBRICATION
U reduce temp by reducing friction, plus absorbs temp while around.
@SG-wp6sg wrong you cool while you reduce friction splitting hairs the book says it is a coolant first
@@HDSME The two main sources of heat: friction and combustion, eliminate friction and whats left is combustion which is mainly surrounded by coolant, in some engines that are air cooled and others like porsche yes the oil must act as coolant first if not equal as a lubricant.
toooooooooooooooo much over-talk . getting frustrating....