Comparison of midrange drivers - frequency response, distortion (Faital Pro, Alpine, Morel)
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- In this video I am comparing 3 very different midrange drivers by measuring on and off axis frequency response, distortion, I am finding the best crossover points and looking at the dome midrange in a small pod.
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More testing, more experiments, more fun!
I do appreciate every video you do. Even as someone who has done installs for years its nice to have a visualization of what ive been taught or discovered.
Amazing. I've been looking for a video like this for forever
i do car audio in the usa and morel has been my go to midrange for all the same reasons you mention here. i'm the final tuner and totally blind so it was neat that you explained the measurements that have made me go back to these drivers over and over.
I hope you'll manage to pray the blind away. Meanwhile - they say the visually impaired supposedly have off the hook hearing 😎
Hope you can help me with something \, I’m about to install morel 903 set and want to run passive until I get my DSP properly installed
My plan is to bi-amp the passive crossovers with about 300mwatts to the mid bass and around 80 watts for the mids and tweeters what is your experience with the 3 morel 3 ways is the passive crossover good enough to run the whole set and amp wise what is your recommendation
Hope I get an answer
Thanks
honestly i've never used the passive crossovers, we tend to do all dsp based installs. i would say they are probably good enough for a long while and can sound awesome if you can get your mid and tweet close together, i think your power ratings sound spot on too, those midbass are hungry for power@@456Pegasus1
This explains a lot when I tune the Morel 3 way the result is better imaging and stage.
I’ve been in love with some midranges since I got my Swan M3A powered speakers. I love the sound when matched with ribbon tweeter that is crossed over correctly.
Thank you for this info. I've wondered about these type of speakers for a while. Long time really.
There is actually a neodymium version of the Faital Pro drivers called 3FE22, i bought a pair of those to replace the crappy original drivers in a pair of nice wooden JVC cabinets from a micro system, i am running them full range and they sound waaay better compared to the original drivers (i bet they used alot of digital processing to make them sound alright with the original amplifier). There is a peak like you showed that could be flattened with crossover components, but they still sound very good for the price even without crossover, they are very efficient and can get pretty loud and actually play low frequencies way better then i thought they would (cabinets are ported, not sure of tuning freq), but i also have a subwoofer connected to take care of the lowest frequencies.
Just wanted to say thankyou, I've only just come across you're heaps of videos getting into the real nitty gritty of noob sq setup and how to proceed if you have a lot of the gear, you you into a lot of detail that some of the other greats out there just can't because they are sharing info that's super useful but in a business that has them under the pump so you fill the gap they can't always doo that and you're super impartial and test a lot of things yourself but with us getting the benefits really a lot of great information for even people who've been tinkering with car audio for a long time but have not entered the DSP SQ scene until now and even some more experience people no doubt can learn a lot so thank you and to subscription for me because I am just getting into it myself I was always just SPL not competition focused but I just like very loud obnoxious music as I have matured I want something that can still bang but is sound quality focused but can pump when the mood takes me which is quite a fine wine to walk since SQ drivers are not designed to scream at Crazy decibels although some of the high-end stuff is capable due to its bigger Motors bigger voice coils etc in some of their products but the price makes you not want to risk it also so I love the fact that you're looking into different drivers and what they can achieve this is fantastic as I have not purchased my Twitter or mid yet for 3 way active
Your testing and, hence your results, are ALL OVER the place.
What do you mean exactly?
I'm putting my neo faitals into my pillars next week.... looking forward how they sound in the car.
Do let us know your observations. I am also planning to put. So I'll wait for your opinion on faitals.
?
i keep learning with every video. :)
Cool I like this all ready
Great info and I appreciate your interest in these “real world” variables with drivers. I do wonder if results would be different outdoors or in another, more neutral environment. The room, itself, and reflections might be influencing many of the results. You did mention distortion over frequency response so there is that. My concern, then, with the dome midrange is having it cross over so high (500) when in a pillar installation. Good stuff!
I use a pair of Morel MDM 55 soft dome midranges in a set of tri-amped 3-way speakers I've built. The clairity at loud volumes is unreal with no fatigue whatsoever. I also use an electronic crossover as well so, there's no crossover distortion to speak of. They are very impressive.
Would be interested to see the waterfall decays response on all these drivers to reveals the settling time, ringing etc. and on/ off grill responses.
I run morel 3 ways in my car with the dome midrange and they sound fantastic.
This is why they say dont play wavelengths of the radius of the cone.
Damn i would love those Morel MDM85's, they are so damn nice
You are making so much useful videos,
It is going to help the community very much and makes the choosing of driver easier.
Midrange play best when installed on the dash in the corner right, how much off axis in general that would be ?
65deg or more?
That depends, if they look straight up that would be 90 Deg. If you angle them, you can make the angle as you wish. Mine are about 50-60deg.
@@RAW-CAt
The results would also vary on how much the wind shield is also raked correct?
Meaning a sedan would have a more actue angle compared to a crossover or an SUV that might effect the output or it will not?
@@rajasekhar9840 not really. The windshield and distance to it will determine the main reflection frequency. It will be somewhere between 1kHz and 2kHz
@@RAW-CAt
You mean cancellation at those frequencies?
Is that the reason why we crossover mid range at those frequencies to avoid that cancellation?
@@rajasekhar9840 one reason for that yes.
I'm very interested in the morel dome even though I looked the price up and that was was not going to say surprised but brought earthbound.
But I have two questions about it. Is that felt in the back of the driver as a dampening?
I asked that because otherwise it's a sealed driver and the dampening you put in the pod would make no difference right?
Have you measured any other brands or any other models of Morel dome mid-ranges?
Hi, some interesing videos you have. One note on loudspeaker measurements on baffle or in box, especialy mid/hi range drivers should be flush with the surface to avoid 1st order diffraction that will disrupt your measurements and freq response. Dips can be as high as 10db. If you don't have some quet acoustic room, try doing your measurements outside ( without nearby walls or obstacles at least 5m ) You will get much cleaner measurement that is more usefull. In house measurements at 1m distance are usually worth nothing.
Thank you for posting this 🤜🤛 Do measure distortion with the drivers mounted in the car? Or is the method you shown going to give the same results?
Distortion does not matter on location, it's purely the driver.
Hi just a quick question, how would you compare your old Alpine X-W12D4 Subwoofer to your New HDZ-110 and is there a big difference?
The X had more output for sure 😊
What's the baffle step loss? Have you tried the measurements with a cabinet with a narrow front?
No I have not. Don't see the point as this test is for comparison reasons and I mainly look at higher frequencies. Since all 3 drivers are in the same baffle, all of them will have the same "flaw".
@RAW-CAt thanks for the quick response. I just got into using rtas in vehicle sound setup to tune frequency and time alignment. I'm a real stickler for perfection myself especially when it comes to my sound setup and reproduction. So far this has been the most Informative channel I've come across. Thanks to you and some others I can finally see what I've been hearing and fix the issues with phase between drivers and time arrival issues I was having.
I should remind you durning the top end of that drivers frequency during the crossover the tweeter is playing to. And the effective diameter is extended to the tweeter radiation surface. And that’s a far greater outer edge to outer edge or center to center distance then even then the small 2/4” drivers alone. This issue is of greater concern then the off axis roll of issues above 3/4k. Cross low and keep the drivers close basically to minimize. The polar issues and for a better directivity index. I’d almost rather have a driver that can encompass the bottom end of the speech bubble than one that plays nicer around 4/6k of axis.
Your interpretations are in some cases here way off. Some of the most expensive speakers in the 6 figures use "regular" cone midranges. Cone material matters...alot as well as surround design. Also the same amount of differences in your graph are either large or small depending on your bias. Stuffing does make a difference as it absorbs the backwave. Lastly the distortion of the driver matters as to which frequency it occurs. The same distortion at 1kHz may be more objectionable than the same percentage at 400Hz.
Would you be interested in doing this between an AF GB25 and a Stereo Integrity M3? I'll pay shipping to you and back to me
Yes yes and yes😉
They played the other styles beautifully
What would you recommend for mid range for under $150 - $200 a pair? Will install it on dash so its off axis must be acceptable. I'm in US. 3" at most since it's a small compact car.
Check out my recent video about One Audio WB3.e, killer mids😉
In your opinion, if you were running the fatal pro lower tier driver. To reduce the third harmonics distortion level or should I say the harshness what EQ bands would you focus on tam down to create a more smoother response?
You can't do much about the distortion of the driver. It just is there. The only way to tame it is to reduce the overall level in a particular region.
After the video I saw, I realized that too large a volume causes the cdm to have more distortions and I placed them in a volume of about 800-1000 cc. This is probably my problem. I will prepare them for a much smaller volume and check the results. What is your reaction?
Yes, in a smaller pod, the distortion was slightly lower.
So on the Crossover portion you will cross on the electrical crossover or Acostic crossover base on the distortion? Example on one of the mid that the distortion start from 500Hz and below you will cross it at 500Hz High Pass, electric crossover?
Electrical. The acoustical will depend on the cabin and install location. For example having the mids in the corners of the dash can potentially lower the acoustical crossover by like 50Hz.
Judging from your reaction in the video, I think I see a pair of Morels in your near future.😀
Can’t wait to see them in the Jazz with a proper tune. Do you have an idea where you may cross them with the tweeter? I think the MT230 can cross at 2200hz. Not sure if that’s the tweeter that came with the set though.
I did tweeter distortion measurements off camera and they don't like to play below 2.5k, so it will be 2.5-3.5kHz. If I will get a dome midrange it will be SB Acoustics MD60M🙃
Yeah I've got the MT23 and not only do I think the information on it provided by Morel is total rubbish (frequency response graphs, FS etc) they do not like to play under 3k at all, plus they roll off the top end super bad too, far too "smooth". I end up using a 6dB HPF @ 20k + 24dB HPF @ 1k to shape them into something usable
Would it be possible to do a comparison with a mid driver tha has an inverted dust cap? Like a German miestro M line 4"?
Unfortunately I only test stuff that I can get my hands on.
Understand, love your channel!
Do you think the Alpine status 3-ways are worth the money? I know you said in another video that they are some of the best speakers you have ever heard but maybe their are cheaper speakers that will do a very similar job?
In my opinion they are way overpriced for what they are. I would not spend my own money on them.
@RAW-CAt Beautiful looking speakers they are but yes should be about half the price. Can you recommend a 3 way setup more reasonably priced but would do the same job?
@@nelsonlopes3500 there are soo many options it's really hard to recommend something from the top of my head.
Car speakers usually have high Qts and the car door is considered an Infinite Baffle. I don't believe car audio speakers are meant to be mounted in a Box as they have different electromechanical characteristics. I am not sure how that would affect your measurements, but it would be better to mount in a flat board with nothing covering the back of the driver, for testing.
This volume of ~20 liters has no impact on the drivers response as it's way too big. These tiny 3in drivers act as if being in IB in this box. With drivers being on a simple baffle I cannot take any reliable off axis measurements, as at 60 degrees off axis I will be measuring the back of the driver rather than the front. And for this specific test I am interested in the top end frequency response so even if the enclosure has some effect on the driver, it will be at the bottom end that I am not interested in at all.
Hi, regarding cdm, I tried to play with them from 500 Hz to 5000 Hz Led Zeppelin, they don't get along well with the distortion of the guitars. On the other hand, a speaker with a membrane (con) plays Led Zeppelin without problems!!!
Well, they do have a lot of distortion between 2kHz and 4kHz, exactly the range where the electric guitars "live".
Love the Morels, I’ve got a set of Elate MW6, CDM 700’s, and Altos. I notice there is a dip around 500hz though, where I have my crossover point to the woofers. Thinking out loud, could this be a phase issue? Or inherent with the drivers somehow?
You can take a near field measurement (few mm from the speaker cone) and see if it's till present. If not - then it's a reflection.
What order xover are you using?
@@AT-wl9yq I just reran the RTA test and perhaps it was the last microphone position, 500 smoothed out, 200 has a bit of a dip. Otherwise pretty linear. 24db slopes all around
@@AT-wl9yq for what? In this video I was using 24dB LR. For actual tuning it varies.
So now im wondering how often we can run a midbass up to 500hz to meet the morel? Isthis a thing we can do in most cars or a select few?
With midbass in the doors, most cars will play up to 1k. Kicks are different.
@@RAW-CAt why do so many people cut midbass @300hz?
@@peejay4473 the lower the crossover frequency between midbass and midrange, the better the imaging. As big distance between midbass in the doors and midranges in the pillars or dash will screw up the imaging.
@RAW-CAt- Your voice sounds like another youtube channel, called original omni i think? He talks about Dungeon Defenders 2. Nice video.
Hi thank you very much indeed for this great video You say that the distortion is measured for a 90dB spl at 1 meter ?
is there a video where you describe the distortion testing procedure ?
i would like to add a comment I listened to a very not flat speaker but with a very low distortion also at high SPLs
i enjoy the sound very much indeed Low distortion for me is an essential thing
I talk more about the actual procedure in this video (skip the first 10 minutes"):
czcams.com/video/xGGc03XO7ok/video.html
@@RAW-CAt Hi thank you very much for your kind and very valuable reply
I have noticed that distortion figures are very rare in drivers datasheets for home hifi
Maybe it is different for drivers intended for the pro sector Very strange
Kind regards gino
@@gino3286it's no different. No one provides distortion data. Reserved for development only I guess🤷
@@RAW-CAt thanks again
This puzzles my mind I am sure that distortion figures are very important
Maybe they may expose some limits of the drivers
I always look for distortion as low as possible Best wishes gino
@@gino3286 yes, the distortion data is very important, but I guess some companies don't want to do any additional testing or are scared to show "crappy" data🤷
and a vacuum tube preamplifier
How to check distortion with USB mic RTA with REW?
Make a sweep in the "measure" tab and look at the distortion. You can find all the info in the REW manual.
I connected two in series (8 ohm) and supplied them with 50w.rms from a Genesis 60 two-channel stereo amplifier😅
Its actually a 25 watt amp now that you have a 16 ohm load. (Average, of course). And that's fine because its much easier for an amp to drive a 16 ohm load than a 4 ohm load.
@@AT-wl9yq 4ohm=100w
8ohm=50
in this amp
The Faital unit is in fact a full range driver.
Pretty sure "soft dome" doesn't mean it's soft but rather it isn't made of metal.
And why Iam talking about distortion? Your measurements show distortion about one percent, right? My distortion charts are about 0,1 to max 0,5 on not really good speakers. So your distortions are about ten times worse? You wouldnt like speaker like that...
At what level are you testing your speakers? If you are measuring near field, you can't really crank it up,as that will.overload the mic. The reason why I am testing at a distance is to test the speakers when I really push them. 90-95-100dB levels. I want to see how they perform under pressure when you push them to the limits. Some speakers can't handle that.
@@RAW-CAt If your mic is capable 124dB, then its doable right? Sonarworks SoundID refference: Maximum sound level: 124 dB SPL
I try from 1k and no good
I do appologize here becouse Iam not trying to be negative, but I thing the measurements are done wrong way. If you really want to see, what the speaker is doing itself, you should measure 1cm from the cone. Just in that way you see the distortion as it should be. But of course you cant measure that way in angles. But you shouldnt have anything in one meter distance. So even your floor is a bit too close... And who cares about issues at 8kHz if you want to use tweeter anyway? I preffer to cross them in lower frequency to have longer waves to properly overlay between mid and tweeter, right? Becouse 8kHz is like 4,2cm short.
For me the absolute distortion levels don't matter, as I am interested how drivers compare to each other under the same conditions.
@@RAW-CAt Okay but then you dont know what distortion is made by speaker and what is reflection...
@@peterpida1840true👍 Accuming the enclosure has a lot of reflections and resonances.
@@RAW-CAt and floor too...
@@peterpida1840 the floor is 90cm from the speaker, the microphone is 70cm. With correct gating, the reflections from the floor are not in the measurements.
You can do better.