What NOBODY is telling you about the WiiM AMP! - a marketing rant?
Vložit
- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
- I feel like we have a tendency to overlook older equipment in the audio industry. I express my frustrations with the way audio equipment reviewers play the system of making a living on CZcams. I love the WiiM amp and all its functionality... but when do we say that it's not as good as something that's less than half the price. Just food for thought. This video is not meant to call anyone out or invalidate anyone's opinion about the WiiM amp. I own and appreciate what it does for the setup that it's in.
Aaron Tuchardt
---------------------------------------------------------
Music Educator
Live Sound Technician
Gigging Musician
![Apple ][+ (and Fossils) at Great Plains Paleontology](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ea71A0TwFYk/mqdefault.jpg)
Fun fact, what you recommend is exactly what I switched away from. I got tired of having a gigantic receiver. I wanted something small that is good enough. And the WiiM amp is just that. Good enough for its size and price. And HDMI Arc, dude I haven’t even used the remote since I bought it.
Then it’s perfect for what you need and that’s great! I kept mine and it’s in use at my parent’s house.
Telling someone to buy an old second-hand receiver instead isn't really good advice. I have a receiver and they are great but take up a lot of space. I would say that most people listen to music in a budget way and £299 fits most people. Does a receiver sound better of course it does. But this is a thing that plenty of people would be happy to have tucked away and connected to their TV. Whilst I get the argument that a receiver is better this easily offers up the way people listen to music and it is a step up from streaming on your phone or a little Bluetooth speaker. It's a thing that people would put in their office or in another small space in their home. The app has a lot of versatility and you are correct it's sleek and modern-looking which is actually a major selling point for people as well as the price. considering that Spotify is the most listened-to streaming service it is clear that a large majority of people are not fussed about the quality of streaming so much as the ease of how they can listen to something this fits the bill for a lot of people.
Agreed on the use case being of the utmost. My Wiim Amps are in our home gym and for patio speakers. In both cases, it's installed completely out of sight, with nobody using the remote. Neither case are critical listening experiences, and my kids/wife can operate them without complexity.
I have a full build out with separates for my Man Cave, which I really love. But, I'm not sure I even want that for my Den speaker setup, once I focus on that. Don't want kids and wife calling me because an input got switched..
Thank you for your candid and experienced input. I have several listening stations in my house. I do use the Chi-fi amps for nearfield and desktop situations. I power my Bowers & Wilkins 607-S2 AE desktop speakers with an Aiyima A07 Max AND I have the WIIM mini attached to it as my DAC and it's great....for my desk.
For my TV and main room listening pleasure I use an older Denon AVR2400 to power my Klipsch RP-6000F-II's as a 2.1 system which sounds amazing even when watching a movie. The speakers project like crazy. They're about 15 feet in front of me and I'll hear footsteps behind me. And none of my system is setup for Atmos. Just the combination of the AVR and Speakers in 2 Channel Mode are plenty. Also have a CD player hooked up to that.
In my bedroom I have an Aiyima A07 Pro powering Polk Audio TSi-100s Which sounds spectacular in that small room application. In my Den I have a Sony STR-DH790 Receiver powering Jamo C93II speakers with an older bose sub and it sounds like magic.
In my other office I have Sony STR-DH190 Powering KefQ150 speakers with an SVS sub and have that hooked up with a cd player and Fluance Turntable and enjoy the heck out of that.
Everything has its place. Your review was balanced and fair. I liked it and now subscribed.
Tim in Texas.
I bought a weed pro because I have a couple of stereo amps and old home theater amplifier just like you suggested laying around so I have no need for amplification I'm currently using up TXSR 600
In my bedroom I have a "cheap" Yamaha RS202 Integrated amp pushing some vintage ADS speakers. I feed it using a WiiM Mini. Gives me great sound, options for plugging in analog sources, and even listening to FM if I want. Think I like my class AB system better than any class D amp, unless you go into the stratosphere on costs with PuriFi or ICE chips. Nothing wrong with those who want to get a WiiM Amp and call it a day, especially with its HDMI Arc connection, but I'm happy.
Hey man, good stuff. I’m up on San Juan Island, neighbor. I was gonna add, if you have to have ARC, just get a slightly newer receiver or surround sound processor, whatever you want to call it. People practically give away their “old” amps from 5 years ago for the “new hotness” all the time. Thanks
Absolutely fantastic review! Thank you for being honest and for providing the real world examples. I agree with you about the best case use for this product and of course its shortcomings. It is what it is, right?
Thank you so much for your video. It was super helpful and validating for me. I picked up a Denon receiver for $30, but got frustrated trying to set it up (I only want 2.1 audio and it is built for 5.1 or 7.1). So then I saw all the hype around the WiiM amp. I bought one thinking it would simplify my life and give me the ability to stream Spotify. I found the MiiM amp to not be powerful enough compared to the Denon. I thought I was crazy because everyone else loves it so much. Then I saw your video and felt like I wasn't crazy. So then I sent back the WiiM amp and bought the mini for streaming and it works perfectly. I get the connectivity of the mini and the power and rich sound of my Denon. Thank you!
I found it to be a great match for a pair of q acoustics. Plenty of detail and clarity and bass control for a medium sized room. I understand your points though.
That’s great! That was exactly my point. Know who you are and know if you need something with more punch or not. If it does what you need on your setup it’s the perfect product.
I also have a pair of q acoustics but with the puck and that sounds great. Was thinking of getting the amp but the speakers not turning on when you start the TV or puck is annoying for the rest of the household when I'm not at home. 😂
"...except for HMDI ARC..."
Bingo. It's what makes the Wiim Amp a killer product. Perfect for adding 2.1 audio to a flat screen panel paired with a decent pair of passive speakers and a subwoofer, with the huge bonus of high quality streaming.
Yep. Optical is crappy for controlling volume on tvs. This is what it is. A nice little package without crappy looks and MacGyver like solutions.
It's amazing what a decent older receiver is capable of with a good modern DAC and source. I would replace the Wiim mini with a Wiim Pro Plus using it's DAC or Wiim Pro to a budget DAC for much better sound.
Great idea! I’d be interested to compare the external DAC of the WiiM pro to the internal DAC of the receiver as the receiver is only accepting 44.1khz from the WiiM Mini at the moment.
@@CascadeAudio-ub6pgYou will hear a positive difference with the WiiM Pro or +, or at least I think you will. I have that Onkyo, and it is not the best with two channel, neither are Denon or Marantz AVR's, owned them all... You want to make those Tanoy monitors sing, find a Sansui 2000 or 4000 stereo receiver.
Spot on!
That's probably the limitation of the optical digital connection. Try the coax digital. I bought a cheap optical to coax digital converter for my Yamaha and it went up to 96 khz .
@CascadeAudio-ub6pg both the Wiim mini ,and pro have a poor DAC section. You will need the pro plus or an external DAC to see improvements.
This is exactly how I run mine, with older hifi and sounds really good!
Thanks for the video. I went a slightly different way with WiiM Pro Plus and then I use a variety of older ADCOM GPA amplifiers at either 60, 100, or 200 watts per channel. The Pro Plus has there best DAC and all the ADCOM amps are top notch.
What you say is very close to my opinion. I purchased the WiiM Amp because I have some space constraints and it allows me to remove all the cable clutter, but when it comes to pure sound quality it is not as good as most of vintage devices. The WiiM Amp makes a lot of fatigue when it is called to control difficult and current demanding speakers. I think it is a nice device but only if judged feature-wise.
GM ☕️❄️from Toronto.
I went with the OG Wiim Pro feeding a Denafrips Ares 12-1 DAC …and it’s damn nice!
The issue with the Wiim isn’t so much their hardware but the associated app.
It runs smoothly ,is it perfect..nope but it’s easy to use and gets you set up within a few minutes.
A great review..and yup ..adding to your older favorite gear a Mini or a Pro is a great upgrade.
Have a good weekend👍
I agree with you on the app. Most of the time I love it. But those times when all I want to do is play music and the app freezes? and it does that every single day when I first come home from work and I'm REALLY not in the mood for troubleshooting apps? That app is the main reason I like to play records when I first come home from work.
Appreciate this mini review, and your thoughts do indeed seem to be backed up by Erin's findings.
what this video fails to grasp is that the WiiM Amp solves for a specific scenario - that of a space-limited footprint. i have several old amps/receivers (and DACs) collecting dust and would LOVE to use them in my various rooms. the problem is that there's no space for those components in those rooms. mind you, these are not dedicated listening or home theater rooms, but rather a living, dining, and bedrooms. the WiiM Amp is a great product for that scenario and the fact that it includes as many bells and whistles as it does (does your receiver have an app?), in a single box and at that price point, is why it is remarkable. so, you can complain that it lacks the sonic qualities of your (legacy) receiver and you'd be (somewhat) right, but you've 100% missed the intended purpose of this product. in future "reviews" please compare tools that are meant for the same job - it needs to be a fair fight.
I completely agree! I was also on the fence about purchasing a Wiim amp but instead I went with my Harmon Kardon Twin Powered 730 vintage receiver with the Wiim streamer. Sounds amazing with my Klipsch speakers and connected to my TV.
Really smart perspective and I 100% agree. If you actually care about sound, use a product that can meet your expectations. One caveat to going down to the opportunity store and buying a 15 year old receiver or amp to connect to your baby DAC might be the integration of an app to control your setup (lack there of). Those giant remotes suck and having to use multiple remotes is a deal killer for a lot of folks now. I'm admittedly lazy, so having a simplified interface for control and sound adjustments is important to me now that I've used them. But, for the price you paid, it's a strong trade-off/value proposition. Cheers!
Hey, really loved the video! Just one question: do you think that using an active subwoofer and applying a high pass filter at the amp level would make it work not as hard and therefore solve the power issues? Perhaps have you tried it? I really want to buy the Wiim and the only thing holding me back is what you mention, but I'm planning on running a 2.1 system so I'd like to know if that problem disappears when connecting a sub. Great content, thank you!
I'm using the wiim amp with a big sub,highpass at 80hz and 93db speakers. It sounds really good until I get to about 80db. It starts getting shrill. The eq is awesome. You could always add an seperate amp later.
hi, i came across your channel by acident, and really enjoyed this video. A real honest and true opnion. If you can deliver your opinion about a doubt ive i would appreciate. Ive that onkyo receiver storaged and im thinking in buying a Fosi V3 for my desktop/office to run elac debut b5.2/6.2 not sure wich one to buy yet. Now my question is should i buy fosi v3 or run the speakers with my old onkyo?
Try both! Send back the V3 if it doesn’t do what you need.
I'm just an enthusiast, not hi-fi pro, but I agree with your thoughts. I returned my WIIM AMP, because it really couldn't drive well enough my old B&W CMD2 speakers as my old Yamaha AX592 amp. Also agree, that WIIM AMP as a concept is a very good product, the streaming part is excellent, but the amp part is so-so, ..
New, bright and shiney is nice. But never forget the vintage A/B stuff.
Class g arcam is where it’s at
We won't forget the vintage stuff if it was affordable and accessible. We listen to music, not "equipment".
The WiiM pro plus - w/o the amp section - is of amazing value, though when hooked to a proper amp. Parasound Halo Integrated in my case, with loads of power and extensive bass management, plus tone control if that's your thing when a given recording requires it. Though the WiiM integrated equaliser, DSP and DAC clearly deliver a better result than the amp's simple tone control. My Dynaudio speakers sing pretty well now! Much better than with the integrated parasound DAC or the Schiit I was using previously out of an obsolete streamer (Logitech squeezebox duet).
Now you're basically advocating to decouple the digital streaming from the amp. I agree. Though you assume the WiiM mini will cut it, but when you hookup the mini vs the pro or pro plus to an amp's digital input (keeping the same digital chain including the DAC), there is a very audible difference. The included streamer makes the difference.
My recommendation is:
- need a specific amp + DAC -> WiiM pro linked to your amp with its internal DAC, using the digital S/PDIF connection
- have listened to the WiiM pro plus excellent built-in DAC -> WiiM pro plus using RCA out to the amp's analog input, for just doing amplification
- want a simple system with speakers that aren't too demanding, like > 80% of the market -> try the WiiM amp, it may work for you and it looks great with a form factor that's easily acceptable
Good insight, thank you for sharing.
Looking forward to your za3 review
Interesting take and you presented your thoughts well. Hope to hear more from you if there are other topics you want to cover.
loved the way you explained and shared your POV.
Thank you for your honesty here I keep thinking WIIM amp but the fact it struggles to push 60 watts and distorts under load kind of worries me a good second-hand amp and the WIIM streamer option have been something I have also been weighing up.
.
Can you compare this setup with Kali Audio LP6? Is LP6 comparable in near field listening? Thanks!
"Good enough sound" is just that, good enough for a lot of people. The truth is there are hundreds of less expensive systems people could put together that would best the WiiM on sound quality. And there is nothing wrong with still saying "I like the whole package the WiiM brings in a sleek simple form factor."
Which stuff do you can or would buy for less than 399€ to beat sound and what it can do? AMP, EQ, streamer. Surprise me!
@@DieTabbi Sure, I could pick up a used Yamaha R-S201 (100 watts per channel, Class A/B) for $40, grab a new WiiM mini for $90 and a new Schiit Modi for $130. So, $260 in I could do everything the WiiM Amp can do except HDMI Arc. Not to mention multiple reviews have questioned the WiiM Amp's speaker driving prowess. The Yamaha will have no such issues. There are tons of used receivers out there, picking a great sounding one at a good price is not difficult.
What combination of stuff doesn’t need a full shelf or rack and do the same thing? Some of us are just looking for a minimal setup for PC desk not a living room. I already have a 7.2.6 full atmos system for that. This thing isn’t designed to compete with separates or full size stereos.
@@billyboyd418 If convenience is your #1 priority, absolutely the WiiM is hard to beat. My point was it wouldn't be difficult to beat it sound quality wise with a 2 box solution (hardly a rack full of separates.) But, yes, in more casual listening spaces the WiiM would be good enough.
Actually for low power situations the audio quality is fine. Was tested and measured/ reviewed recently by Erin czcams.com/video/RcJAcVbq5xQ/video.htmlsi=OQVpnJMEx5vQ2bUT
Informative direct to the point honest opinion. Very refreshing, all I can say is thank you and keep doing what you're doing. It is highly important to see both sides of the coin. You were honest in your experience and non-insulting just REAL. Thank you. hope to see more from you. "I feel like we have a tendency to overlook older equipment in the audio industry. I express my frustrations with the way audio equipment reviewers play the system of making a living on CZcams." Well said and I completely agree as I have been into audio for the better part of 60 years!
I wonder if you have any thoughts on how this might compare to my current setup. I've been using a chromecast to send audio into my Sony receiver from my phone (obviously using the HDMI on the Chromecast) and I think it sounds pretty great but I haven't really compared other options.
I’ve heard really good stuff about the value of chrome cast for the money. I don’t have any personal in depth experiences with the Sony receivers. I’d guess you’re at a great starting spot. You MAY get better quality with a WiiM style streamer that could push more than 44.1k 16 bit but honestly I’m running 44.1 now and it sounds much better than the WiiM pro at whatever its default highest setting was. Pick up a WiiM and return it if you don’t like it I’d say.
@@CascadeAudio-ub6pg Ok. Yeah, it's all in the implementation, for sure.
Great video and very honest! The thing about theTPA3255 chip is that it is very dependent on the quality of the switching power supply upstream from it, which is internal to the WiiM amp. Also the op-amps after the chip matter a lot, and they are not swappable.
Excellent commentary and presentation. Thank you!
Good video. We need more objectivity in audio on youtube. Keep it up!
I appreciate the support. I would not however say that my video is objective. I have not provided any hard data or measurements or facts. To me, it’s a fact that the budget system sounds better. To you it’s just my opinion. Ideally I could set up a measurement microphone and provide that objectivity to base my opinion on but I haven’t had the time or tools to do that yet. Maybe the next video ;). I appreciate the support greatly!
Lol. Objectivity is not a review like Andrew Robinson who's in the pocket of high hifi producers. This review is probably right, but needs measurements to back up the claims. If PC reviewers did similar reviews like this, they would be slaughtered.
Fair take on the wiim amp. I am getting mine on Monday to power Martin Logan Preface speakers I picked up for $50. The size of the wiim amp was attractive but if the sound doesn’t fancy my amateur ears, I may look into an older receiver. Thanks!
I have experimented with insane amounts of vintage, chifi, and some of the better-known brands. You can pick up something like an older Harman Kardon pa2400 or citation (1-24) and blow away any of this stuff. PA 2400 can be had around $250. I did an A/b with my parasound 2250 v2 and it was 99% there.
Don't be scared of older equipment sounding bad. Get a puck from wiim and you will have something that will best most stereos below the $1500 price point.
@@ufarkingicehole thanks for the suggestions. The Wiim Amp actually did a great job powering my Martin Logans. I was pleasantly surprised by the performance. Be that as it may, I still want to get the full range of my speakers with modern features and a few HDMI slots for my Apple TV, blurays etc. I think the Integra DTM-7 used might be a great option. Nonetheless, I'll definitely look into your suggestions.Thanks!
Dude, you've got only one video on your channel. You've literally found the golden formula to get viral videos: talk about what people are looking for 😄 I like the way you phrase things. Kind, honest and simply to the point. I especially like the final statement: people buy the WiiM at (admittedly) a great price, it's like a bargain. However, when you're in need to push the speakers more because of a larger room/space I think the WiiM simply cannot handle it. Full disclaimer: I haven't heard it yet, so I can't speak, but the fact that it's a tiny box like that simply comes with physical limits. Likely, at low listening levels it's fantastic, and the best value compared to many amps many times more expensive.
But if you're going to listen for longer periods to higher volumes, this thing will not only be incapable of keeping up as you described, but it's also going to become defective *very quickly* without any doubt. It's still a recent release, so I'm sure we'll be seeing people frying the WiiM in the coming months/years.
Great video, keep it up!!
Great video. Finally someone not selling stuff. I have an old onkyo 7.1 receiver but it seems like it’s missing some notes when I use two speakers. Like the dialog is less. Tried all the settings. Does anyone recommend any hacks to use a 7.1 receiver with only 2 speakers?
Have you ever try Sansui AU series amplifier?
An important point I believe you're missing. DACs have come a hell of a long way since that Onkyo was made. You would do a lot better with a number of relatively affordable(
I have a Wiim Mini connected to an SMSL SU-1 DAC (under $100) in two rooms. I highly recommend the SU-1 and Wiim Mini combo. They're both under $100 each and put together they make an old system sound new. Like I'm shopping for new phono cartridges now because that SU-1 DAC actually sounds better than my turntable.
@kraig7777 That's exactly what I'm talking about! Unbeatable performance for the price, almost at any price. I'm running Wiim Pros in both my systems. One feeds into a Topping E50, the other into an SMSL DO100. Both double the price of yours, and I truly doubt anyone could hear even a small difference. It is crazy how good affordable DACs have become!
@@kennydelaney7299do I need to buy wiim mini and SMSL DO 100 if I buy wiim amp? Sorry newbie here
The Dac in the old Onkyo is probably a Burr Brown and is going to sound as good as the Pro+ Dac. Dacs have come a long way since the 80s but not since the early 2000s.
Interesting viewpoint and yeh, my experience is my iPad feeding Apple Music into an old NAD DAC, into a 1990’s Rotel power amp is that it is more able to drive my 1980’s Monitor Audio M852MD’s than a NAD M10 integrated and sounds much better above 70db. Though, if I add a good Power Amp, an old Peachtree NOVA220 to the M10, no contest.
The WiiM amp is really a $150 add on to the WiiM Pro Plus and as such is not going to do anything good and it doesn’t surprise me that your Receiver sounds better. I think many other reviews also saying it’s puny and not that capable in driving loads.
All of this is a lesson in ensuring that we step back and look relatively at what things do. Most won’t notice. The NADM10 I bought was disappointing given reviews and I think NAD even felt so as they upgraded the amp section less than a year in.
Old is not always bad. The Rotel Power amp I have is Class AB and rated at 50 W. It’s clean and seems to have lots of headroom. More so than the 100W NAD M10 but not even close to the Peachtree .
One thing that is missing with the Onkyo is that you cannot turn it on via AirPlay right?
This is a very important question for me.
When you only put the power cable in the Wiim Amp and don‘t press any buttons, can you turn it on by streaming music to it by Airplay from an iOS device?
The TPA3255 is a highly capable amplifier chip. You will find it in powered monitors, sound reinforcement, line amps, etc. You will also find it in high end audiophile and home theatre gear. It CAN deliver.
But the point about the parts around the chip is right on target. Between inadequate power supplies, marginally rated parts in the output filters and poor design of phase splitters and input stages, many of the Chi-Amps are pretty marginal for sound quality. They will work well enough on an 8 ohm desktop speaker running at 10% power... but put them to work on a large room and nope, just not getting it done.
There are exceptions, of course. For example: The Fosi TB10D after a modification to the heat sink and with an adequate power supply (36 volts, 10 amps) will definitely deliver. As will the original Aiyima A07 with the same supply.
Like all things Chinese, getting the good stuff requires a bit of luck and searching.
The 3255 is designed for about 51V. How can I claim this?? because they TI have another model rated for 32V lol. Obviously the 3255 is the most capable on a 4ohm speaker with a 51V low esr psu driving it. The chip have low 2.nd harmonics and high dampening factor giving the impression of less bass. Those cheopo old amps have low dampening factor and high 2. and 3.rd order boosting the impression of bass sometimes.
@@impuls60
You are correct. The TPA3251 is rated for 36 volts.
Having both chips on the bench here for testing I can tell you that harmonic distortion is almost undetectable below clipping. The damping factor isn't all that high, maybe 100 or so, because of the DC resistance of the output coils. (And cheapo coils will sabotage that rather badly, btw)
In my bench testing, I find that the TPA3255, is happiest at about 36 to 40 volts. The TPA3251 seems happiest at 32 volts. This is a compromise between power output and temperature. Both are tiny chips with small thermal pads. They get right annoyingly hot at maximum voltages and require a very large heatsink and fan to sustain them.
Yes, old school amps are a horse of a different colour...
In class A/B amps with less capable supplies a very interesting phenomenon happens, power supply hum mixes with the signal providing artificial bass. You can test it with a simple experiment...
Take almost any low-mid priced A/B amplifier and put one channel on a dummy load and one channel on a speaker ... now feed a near clipping level signal into the channel on the dummy load, with no signal to the channel on the speaker and listen to what you get from the speaker. You will likely hear an amplitude modulated 120hz hum from the speaker.
This hum is caused by the reservoir caps draining and rectifier hum getting onto the power supply rails. In normal use, it actually happens in both channels.
Of course some of the older A/B amps also have a slight nose up in bass to compensate for vintage speakers that roll off at about 100hz. Modern speakers can often get well below that, producing exaggerated bass.
The funny thing is ALL of the people that make, engineer, produce, and master nearly all of the music you listen to would NOT be able to tell the difference between a small pair of KEF Meta's driven via a TI3255-wielding WiiM vs. the same pair driven by the house's long-loved Benchmark amp at control room level (80-85dB or so depending on transients) in a smallish treated room. The differences simply are not audible at that level-- we've tested it repeatedly with a variety of equipment, and yes, there were plenty of young ears present in the trials.
If no audio engineer can hear a difference at identical levels-- sure, the Benchmark can get way louder-- then what's the point? Are you guys hearing 'secrets' in our work that we don't even know we put in there? I never understand these claims of super ears when no one in the industry making the stuff (whether good or bad work) that gets played thinks it is even applicable. This includes seasoned engineers that have NEVER had their work sent back by any client, whether for film/TV/music/etc.
Where are the audiophile studio engineers?
Your review or quote, "2 cents worth" was, enlightening, and I have only one observation I would like to submit: The Wiim amp and Wiim Pro Plus both with an AK 'Velvet Sound' chip sound much better at low volumes than my Yamaha amplifier bought 10-12 years ago. I suspect because I do not yet have a DAC in my original set up. I switched and ran the Wiim Pro Plus through the Yamaha, and I found that, at least, to my Amateur Audiophile ears, there is no distinguishable difference between the two except perhaps that at extremely high volume, the Wiim amp lags behind the Yamaha in terms of heaviness, depth, or gravitas, if you will. The price point is what I am the most happy about, and your candor has persuaded me to subscribe to your CZcams channel.
Thanks for the video! Agree, if you’re looking for an affordable option and a matched beautiful hifi stack isn’t a concern, this is a great option. It’s amazing how much high-end amplification gets discarded (maybe privileged living in a city where this is all easy to find, I acknowledge). I have a 2-channel Onkyo amp with a Wiim mini in my garage powering my old bookshelf speakers hanging from the pegboard wall, and I proudly left the $25 Goodwill sticker on the amp. Even if your budget setup sounds better than anyone’s new $500 soundbar, you’ve got to stay humble…
I totally agree. I have a WiiM mini going into a Cambridge Axr85 which I bought used. Total cost was £200. It sounds great.
So, my system is old to vintage, with Adcom 555's (x2), Carver M-500, and presently using a NAD 208thx (250w @8/425w @4ohms), with the Emotiva XDA-2 balanced preamp/DAC. I got great deals on these amps/speakers, though I bought the two 12" subs new.
Recently I've dove into a poor man's level headphone setup. Schiit stack of Modius DAC>Midgard amp. The sound is phenomenal and 5wpc powers my HD6xx cans to too loud levels. As a retiree I can't afford some of the higher end stuff, though once I pay off this gaming PC I'll likely look into different speakers, like the Emotiva totl towers.
I 100% agree with your premise up to a specific point…DAC. I own 2 WiiM Minis and love them but they definitely benefit from an external DAC. That being said WM AirPlay2 into Geshelli Labs J2 into vintage Marantz 2238B into JBL 4311a has amazing synergy to my ears. Good assessment and I would love to hear all of those monitors!
I’m utilizing the optical out on the mini so the Dac is handled by the onkyo. I’m sure it’s not the latest and greatest but I was pleasantly surprised
@@CascadeAudio-ub6pg Ah, the advantage of modern technology. I imagine the Onkyo internal DAC is pretty good.
Older NAD AV receivers serve as an excellent beginner unit especially with a decent DAC!!
I subscribed because I love seeing a MUSICIAN talking about audio, and not some random person who only speaks about "detail" and "clarity" and "low punch" and "big soundstage". Musician knows music and listens to music waaay differently. Keep it up!
Great video! I've been suggesting this type of setup to friends. Find an old Yammy receiver and it probably has a MM phono stage too. Add an entry level DAC and you can kick the digital performance up a notch.
Only caveat is more/bigger boxes.
I like th Burr brown days on the yamaha av Receivers.
I really like your name and that beautiful logo and type face / design. slick and elegant.
100% agree with this. I bought a Fosi V3 which probably the best implementation of the amp chip. I found it dull, lifeless, and good only for very near field listening. Even then the dullness remains. By the time a decent power supply is added, it’s not very inexpensive compared to other new options. With 2nd hand prices of receivers with good connectivity options, it’s a no brainer.
I fell for the fosi V3 hype and even bought the P3 preamp. It has been hugely disappointing! It is just not a patch on any of the 2nd hand integrated amps I have. Marantz pm 54se and Nad 3155 both of which were far cheaper.
Onkyo Amps/Receivers are constantly underestimated. I recently tried out about 5 or 6 Amps including ones from Sony, Wiim, Fosi, and Yahama. I ended up with the Onkyo 8260 Stereo Reciever for $249 on sale and I love it's sound. It does a great job pushing my Elac Uni-Fi's and has a pretty good built in DAC.
Can i plug the wiim mini into my primaluna tube amp via rca?
I'm using a crown XLS 1502 Poweramp which is a pro audio amp that also has high impedance inputs. 400 watts out into my Klipsch heresy 4s (I turn it up about a third of the way) I'm currently using an old pioneer receiver with preamp outs but has no digital inputs. The Wiim sounds very interesting
I'm currently running a newer yamaha avr and streaming directly through the built in dac over wifi. Is there any reason that i should switch to a wiim product to stream music?
No,Yamaha are excellent like a dac and amp,Musicast is great too,i have them both,Yamaha and Wiim.
I've bought a Wiim Mini last week, with my Yamaha receiver and Cambridge Audio speakers it sounds really good.
Your opinion is a breath of fresh air. Thanks.
To think that Onkyo hasn't been upgraded with better filter caps!
That would be a fun project but would be a lot of work and time that I don’t have at the moment
You only need to upgrade the filter's if there's obvious voltage ripple, i.e. you can hear a buzz through the speakers; even then it may be that the buzz will go away as the caps re-form. Otherwise, yes the filters may need replacing. One of my hobbies is restoring old analogue (and some digital) hi-fi. The caps that need replacing are usually those situated next to regulators, and have started to dry out due to heat conduction from the regulator, through it's legs, into the PCB track and into the cap; also radiated heat will dry a cap out as well. Electrolytic capacitors have a finite life span which is a function of temperature and operating voltage. If an an electrolytic cap is constantly exposed to elevated temperatures it will start to dry out and it's internal equivalent series resistance (ESR) will start to rise. As ESR rises the I^R power dissipation will increase causing the capacitor itself to get hot; this in turn will accelerate the drying out process.
@@davidgriffin79 Even if the filter caps have not gone bad, inferior caps replaced with superior caps make a clear audible improvement. Don't need to wait for stock caps to go bad. This in of itself is one of many rabbit holes in audio I'm in.
@@sonusancti You have to be careful here. Power supply capacitors, i.e. those _not_ in the audio path, do not in any way, shape or form affect the sound quality; they bridge the power rails and their job is to simply remove voltage ripple and provide a limited reserve for transients, as far as power supplies are concerned there is no such thing as "Audio Grade" - this is a misnomer propagated by the self-appointed "audio gurus" who have zero understanding of electronic engineering and jumped upon by certain manufacturers to inflate their prices. Now, for electrolytic capacitors _in_ the audio path, that's a whole different story.
I'm only changing filter caps ok? And I've heard the differences for myself and yes they can be called audio grade because of their sonic improvements from experience.
What voltage and amperage is your power supply?
Wiim is doing some nice things, gradually. Would be nice to have this amp in a dual mono design to double the power and add a nice linear power supply, ability to swap OP-AMPS and now it's a solid system.
I own one and mostly for the HMDI ARC input for my TV bedroom setup with some Micca RB-42s speakers and a small sub. Its form factor is perfect for bedroom setups. No DAC/amp combo has had this feature working well for me for anything below $300 (SMSL AO300 i.e.). I will be modifying WiiM’s 2 dual channel $1 opamps to Sparkos Labs SS3602 - $80 opamps, as the output stage is very important to be done properly with discrete components and can not be achievable with great sound quality from $1 cheap integrated circuit opamps. Hence Fossi Audio and Aiyima have amps that allow opamp rolling and use the same TI 3255 amp chip, but the sound is night and day when I replace the opamps to Sparkos. I will upload a video of the mod to YT in March. I will let you know in here. Or just subscribe 😅
Thank you mate . You are very helpful .
I've literally done the opposite of you. I had a mini coupled to a vintage system but have now swapped to the Wiim Amp. The difference in quality is minimal to my ears but it looks so much better in the room. Neatness does have a value.
Yup, that helped me a lot, thanks!
Bravo and congrats for the very honest video
It sounds so good every word from your mouth
Same should be said about all modern Chi-fi which is not in the best purpose to make you a good sound at home.
I support every word you said.
Regards from Finland
Hello, I am now the owner of 2 x wiim amp. Now a question, can I only play the music played in the wiim app (radio, amazon, spatify, tidal,...) as multiroom? Or can I also play music as multiroom from another app, outside of the Wiim app? hope it's understandable what I mean?!? Thank you
That’s a great question! I’m not sure. I do know the WiiM customer support is awesome and could provide that answer in the “feedback” section of their app. My guess is that at the moment it will only multizone built in apps
@@CascadeAudio-ub6pg Many thanks for your response. I'll experiment a little more this evening. But I think this might interest a few people.
That's why I'm stuck to my Yamaha RXV379 + AudioPro Link2 streamer:) Although such products as Wiim Amp are higly tempting[ and hugely advertised&recommended] what matters for me is the sound quality not a [newest the better]date of release of the product on my shelf. cheers!
Cascade Audio where? In Seattle?
I have the Wiim mini, the Pro & the Pro Plus in 3 different system, 3 different requirements. Utterly happy. I have the Fosi V3 (48v) & the SMSL A300. Both of these have lovely bass control & drives 2 of my B&W speaker that drop to some 2.7ohms without breaking sweat. Utterly happy. Even better than my NAD 310. Hmmm
However, i didnt & wouldn't buy the Wiim Amp for the same points you mentioned.
Thanks for your inputs!
Quite the banger of a first video for someone who is "not a CZcamsr". Keep creating, man
Thanks for making this video. I have the silver version of the Onkyo amp and it's a very good AB class amp, but it also gets HOT, which is why I'm looking for a class D in a small room. Based on this review I think I'll get the FOSI version without all the extras. No way any class D can come close to the Onkyo IMO, at least in this price range.
I grabbed a PC noctua fan and wired it to a usb cable and plugged it in a wall ward on the back. Powers up and keeps the amp plenty cool!
Good point and I agree what you said.
To be fair in comparison in terms of value though, I think that old receiver that was featured are very old one pre HDML era so value is now almost nothing hence super cheap price comparing with Wiim Amp which is new product in the marketplace so full price. The price of entry for both option might be similar after several years later when used Wiim Amp price is also depreciated. And we also need to factor into account of durability and service cost since old receiver may need service for long term usage.
Again, great video and keep them coming.
wait what does that 90 dollar upgrade thingy do! it’s a dac?
I do have a WiiM mini, but haven't found a use for it yet. For my office, I stream from my iMac and iPhone to an Vizio sound-bar with sub (2.1) via bluetooth. I have a Sony 400 CD / DVD chassis connected to the Vizio via an optical cable. For living room theatre A/V, I use a Denon with Infinity towers and a massive Sony sub. Again, I stream to it via iPhone; movies via a Roku. These all sound great and were low $ options. I've owned the Infinity towers and the Sony sub for over 20 years - they sound like new. Picked up the Denon from Marketplace for peanuts when my vintage 90's Sony konked out. Might connect the WiiM to the Denon, maybe. Bought it on a whim.
Hi there, what if i used the wiim amp as preamp/ processor bcuz of the features and use my str-da777es as power amplifier ?
You would have bought an overpriced, underperforming, over specified, preamp.
I'm a wiim mini + Yamaha reciever setup kind of guy, and this video sure helped me stay with it :)
Did you go with the wiim streamer because you didn't like the musiccast system?
I have an old Yamaha, an RX-663 from 2009 @@nathanclaspell6003
THANK YOU. I’m tired of ppl getting carried away with spec sheets and cheap audio being considered ‘too good to be true’ cause it usually isn’t that great. There are very few exceptions to this in audio. Power supply in amps is soooo important. Thanks for your points.
cyrus one hybrid class d amp is a good example, linear power supply with toroidal transformer 100 watts per channel sounds great,
It's insane how much functionality you can get from the WiiM's !!!
And their operating software is as good (or better) than some expensive streamers like Lumin give you. There's no excuse these days for crappy software. If a startup company like WiiM can do so much, NAD, BlueSound, Lumin, Aurrender, and Innuos need to step up their game.
I'm guessing this video is for those not familiar with audio. Those that have been into this hobby for even a short while already know that one can get older used pre HDMI class a/b receivers for dirt cheap, even the flagship models. However, those that want something small and unobtrusive for a desktop system, or to blend with room decor might opt for one of the chip amp products. I actually picked up one for my desk, it's a rare Cabasse Stream Amp 100. These retailed for ~ $600 however a guy on Craigslist was selling one new in box for $115 years ago. I have it connected to a set of Boston Acoustics VS 240 speakers and two Mirage Omni S8 subwoofers. Great sound for a desk rig! I also jave a WiiM Pro streamer in my main system in the family room.
Power consumption is something I am taking much more notice of these days, I have an attic with a stack of AR receivers, now replaced with soundbars
I almost bought a WiiM amp, but stopped because it doesn't have a USB DAC, and I use my PC USB for music. I ended up buying a Dayton Audio HTA200 because it has the inputs I need and the power (A/B amplification). It also has a tube preamp, VU meters and big toroidal transformers. I have it hooked up to some small Klipsch bookshelves and it sounds nice. I have some larger 3-way speakers (Hivi-Swan DIY 3.1A) I am building that I will eventually hook up to it. I have a feeling its going to sound awesome. I have an aversion to using a big clunky receiver, even though they can be had for cheap.
You are 100% correct and I just made the pricey experience.
My 17 year old NAD C325BEE amp had an issue with the right channel and needs repair. Instead of streaming music to the digital output of an old Apple TV or Chromecast audio in my amazing ARCAM rDAC, I bought the NAD C700.
I have floor standing speakers from PMC (17 years old…) and the C700 does a fair job but is far from the warmth and certain details the old C325BEE is able to deliver. The bass is less precise but more present (the DAC is a reason), but it powers the speakers better (and delivers more power at less volume compared to the new C700).
Spot on!
The Wiim mini feeding a digital signal to SMSL su-1 (Dac) and then analog to the old receiver would be even better.
Thanks for your honest and expert voice. I settled on an Atoll AM100 power amp with Triangle streamer and Mojo2 DAC powering 10yo B&W CM8 speakers. Couldn't be happier with setup. The Atoll amp put out better sound experience than the Hegel H95, which I originally bought.
👍 Excellent review (well, perhaps not “review”, but you know what I mean). I use a WiiM Mini with an old NAD 80w amp - good value for money and a very dynamic sound. Be careful of what you think you want.
They are typically right in the realm of getting what you pay for. These products typically have very low noise. I buy used AVRs because of the bass management, with many being over 100wpc rms/8Ohms. All these import products rate their spec into 4Ohms which is misleading and more comparable to car audio. They are basically 50 wpc amps at best, which has always been entry level power for all but the most sensitive speakers. Most people that are used to loud music will push these to their limits. I have the Fosi BT 30D pro in a bedroom for lower level listening. I also have the V3 with a 48V power supply and it's adequate but nothing like the 40# Denon AVR from the early 2000s.
It's got S Video on the Onkyo... Wish all AVR still had at least one SVideo input as well as RGB.
Yayyy. A no hype review! I run a WiiM Mini/Schiit Modi3 combo in my office. It feeds a vintage Arcam amp/Triangle Titus Ex speakers. I don’t listen critically, whatever that means, but Tidal on the Mini or main systems Node sounds great. Was thinking about this amp, but really have no need for a sub out or HDMI. If I wanted to build a HTS would go with a true solution.
thx for the info, equal same I do realy not understand all that youtube trend when all the reviews just seem to be kind of series where you actually do not get information, ...there are some reviewers like wave theory, 2 channel listening and maybee couple of others which I apreciate for they directway of speaking
Keep in mind that Product Reviews are simply *advertising* ...
@@Douglas_Blake_579 well of course I am considering it but how does it work? some reviewers do claim that thay only review products they like so that could explain it, as negative review is not advertisment, but are they paid for this directly by those companies?
After a few days of demoing the WIIM I had to return it...and FAST! It is not only its severe lack of dynamic headroom, but also that it just doesn't sound good at all. Sterile, bright, no pace and rhythm, mechanical, even grainy on top. The upper mids and lower treble are unlistenable - at least in my home office system (Wharfedale Diamond 12.3 and Velodyne sub). If it had pre-outs it would be terrific, as I would have kept it and hooked a good amp to it.
Great honest review!
I forgot to mention inner detail, or lack of it, and soundstage. Soundstage is quite limited, but if you crank it up, it collapses. Harsh words, but lets be realistic - this is a full all-in-one amp looking for a speaker to match (good luck), and users that want background music.
Thanks for the kind words. My experience in the mids were okay. The top end seemed a little more “bright” and “shrill” than other amps. I did bring down the 1.5 db high frequency pad on my Tannoys when using it.
@@CascadeAudio-ub6pg - this amp is hypersensitive to the speakers it is hooked with. A couple of YT audio reviewers had to try several sets of speakers to find one that would sound "okay". With my Wharfedale's 12.3 it was a total no go!
I agree with you. Great perspective. The only recommendation is to go with the Wiim pro. It sounds better than the Mini, for not much more money
This has been my exact experience with other cheap class D amps and older Sony receivers.
There's a lot of merit to what you're saying here. I agree that this isn't a bad product, but rather not what it's being made out to be.
Without putting down the WiiM amp at all, it's basically an average $100 amp with a lot of extra features. It is a unique product, it's a great way to reduce clutter and get good sound in a more elegant package. But, the tradeoff is you can get better sound for a lot cheaper.
I also love that you brought up the amps ability to drive at variable loads. To dramatically oversimplify some technical information, impedance drastically varies throughout a given speaker's frequency response. It tends to peak around the bass region in speakers, and also somewhere around the upper frequency range (where it peaks can vary dramatically). All this to say a cheaper amp MAY sound okay, but will likely have less clearly defined bass. I've listened to plenty of cheap amps and some are fine, but it's worth getting something solid that you can trust.
As a replacement for the WiiM amp, I'd really recommend taking a look at the Fosi Audio V3. I am NOT an amp guru, but the technical measurements sold me on it and I've been very happy with its performance. With an upgraded power supply it can even drive a lot of speakers to downright painful volumes. Paired with a WiiM mini it would make a great system for under $200.
Another point I've been wondering as I've fallen down the rabbit hole looking for a new amp/receiver is whether or not these new "Chi-fi" products will still be working in 20 years like my current Onkyo receiver (I have almost the same unit as the one shown in the video). The only reason I'm even in the market is that I was thinking of either leaving the Onkyo with my ex or getting her a simple replacement.
Very interesting hearing the perspective of a seasoned pro audio guy new to hifi.
I couldn’t agree more with you. Used integrated amps with digital stages plus a streamer in the way to go. Wiim makes very high value str EA ma that do a LOT for the money. The wiim amp is great if you want a small all in one with HDMI but it doesn’t deliver crazy value the way the streamer does.
I got a $300 Yamaha integrated on FBM for $100 used and it sounds great with a jeep digital streamer.
Wiim is also a great product if you want small in one box for an apartment connected to a TV the wiim amp is great. Pretty much everyone who has reviewed it has said it doesn’t sound particularly well.
One big thing to look for is that the digital stage can handle both 44.1k and 48k native and that it is not resampling. Some amps will take a bit perfect digital signal but not play it but perfectly. I personally really like the modern Yamaha amps. They have natural sounding DACs at the price point and natural sounding amps for the price point. The only issue is size.
Bought a Rega aethos this week used for 2000 usd, and damn it makes my triangle magellan duettos sw2 sing also bought used for 1500 usd. Some good deals if buying used.
You are 100% on point with this. Any name brand receiver from ANY time period is going to sound better than these chip amps. There are HUGE bargains on old AV receivers that don't support the latest video specs, but the audio is fine. I've seen Pioneer Elite receivers with over 100 watts per channel going for less than $100, just because they don't have HDMI ports, etc. And don't worry about the DAC in the receiver, or even if it has one. Pickup a Wii Pro Plus instead of the mini and use RCA's to connect to the receiver. Want a better DAC than that, then get a Wiim Pro (not the plus) and go pickup a DAC from SMSL, or one of the other DAC companies. Heck, I bought a Wiim Pro Plus to fee by vintage silver Pioneer gear, and then decided to get an SMSL DAC to see if I could get something better than the one in the Wiim Pro. It doesn't make sense to worry about tiny differences between DAC's to then just suffer with one of these chip amps that don't even have a full set of specs. Sure it's 60 Watts, over what frequency range, and at what level of distortion. These old receivers will quote you over 100 watts, 20-20Khz with well under 0.5% distortion. Now THAT is hifi sound.
"Any name brand receiver from ANY time period is going to sound better than these chip amps"
Just an FYI, not every AVR from a name brand was good. You're making a poor assumption there. These chip amps are objectively good, but if you go above it's output limit, you're going to have issues just like you would with an AB amp. See Erin's Audio Corner's measurements of this thing. Buying a tiny all in one desktop device and expecting big wattage numbers is comically naïve.
"These old receivers will quote you over 100 watts, 20-20Khz with well under 0.5% distortion"
As you should know, manufacture claims and actual performance are two different things, sometime drastically so.
Thx for the info, I own one and mostly for the HMDI ARC input for my TV bedroom setup with some Micca RB-42s speakers and a small sub. Its form factor is perfect for bedroom setups. No DAC/amp combo has had this feature working well for me for anything below $300 (SMSL AO300 i.e.). I will be modifying WiiM’s 2 dual channel $1 opamps to Sparkos Labs SS3602 - $80 opamps, as the output stage is very important to be done properly with discrete components and can not be achievable with great sound quality from $1 cheap integrated circuit opamps. Hence Fossi Audio and Aiyima have amps that allow opamp rolling and use the same TI 3255 amp chip, but the sound is night and day when I replace the opamps to Sparkos. I will upload a video of the mod to YT in March. I will let you know in here. Or just subscribe 😅
This video is against the tides. Since 2019, I see reviewers worship these TPA3255 amps with measurements to back it up. So far, only Andrew Robinson gave truly negative feedback on these TPA3255 amps. Once with an Aiyima A08 Pro, and recently with the Wiim amp. I almost feel obliged to buy an Aiyima A07 to make up my own mind. But my Creek 4240 ain't going nowhere.
I'm a huge fan of A08pro and recently bought a A7max amp expecting it would be better than the A08pro with the hifi grade parts used. I have posted my view of the comparison on Cheaptubeaudio Blog (apologies and I'm not trying to advertise the blog). Conclusion is that all cheapo TPA3255 amps are not equal! And secondly, with proper equipment, the A08pro can sound astonishingly good! Don't throw it away!!
BTW, I have to say that Andrew DID NOT DO justice on A08pro at all!
@@ericlo6370 I wish I could just meet someone like you with several TPA 3255 amplifiers. I have terrific speakers: Closer Acoustics OGY. I had to buy several cheap amplifiers until I landed on the Creek 4240. I don't want to purchase more amps. I don't see why people wouldn't buy refurbished British amplifiers under 300€ instead.
@@user-xg6zz8qs3q If you can get a MF A1 in good condition cheap, it's a little wonder and I used it to drive my NAIM SBL admirably.
Right now, the AIyima A08pro is my goto amp and my 47 Lab Gaincard is in display mode only. I'm using Dynaudio Crafft for almost 30 years and is not an easy load to drive at all! My A08pro is a feisty little guy and is working well!
I watched the video with a Onkyo 605 I bought ages ago… through a NVIDIA shield - ich have all the sound I want and when it was acting up a local hi end hifi shop fixed it by just refreshing the solderings 😅 I find no reason to get something else 😊
Wim amp was not made to drive such high quality Tannoys. The Wim Amp is a clone of Argon Audio SA1 which is a great little Amp for 329 Euros. It also has a pre out to drive Studio monitors active. Has a lot of features. 5 year Garantie from HiFi Klubben and very well built .
Funny coincidence. I received the wiim amp for free. I switched it with my very old onkyo tx SR305. I tried it with some vintage new large advents and also with my HECO Celan Revolution 3's. It would take too long to go into a whole review, but one of the biggest cons was the lack of power - also felt like the dac should have been a little better, which may also speak to your concerns. My streamer for the onkyo system is just a laptop. I also have the laptop connected to my TV via HDMI, so it does it all, plus surround sound. It's not the best, and it's not the latest and greatest, but it does beat the wiim amp on sound and mostly matches the functionality.