Synth trick: How mimic a Subharmonicon with Maths by Make Noise
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2018
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The Moog Subharmonicon is a lovely instrument that unfortunately, as of June 2018, isn't available other than the 100 attendees that built it at the 2018 Moogfest Engineering Workshop.
What's unique about the Subharmonicon is its ability to take a core oscillator and generate sub oscillators at special sub-harmonic frequencies, which can produce harmonically pleasing results. It also has the ability to subdivide a tempo clock and the result is a poly-rhythmic clock that creates interesting patterns, when combined with other sequences clocked at different sub-divisions.
Maths by Make Noise however, is one of the most popular eurorack modules, and it turns out you can mimic the unique oscillator sub-harmonic and tempo subdivisions of the Subharmonicon with it.
The result is that one Maths unit can take a core oscillator generate two additional sub-harmonic oscillators at a broad range of sub-harmonic frequencies. Ditto for tempo subdivisions.
This clip shows you how.
I already explained how to use Maths to subdivide a clock here:
• 22 reasons the #1 euro...
My full review of the Moog Subharmonicon can be found here:
• Moog Subharmonicon Rev...
NOTE: Occasionally I’ll try out affiliate marketing and include affiliate links. This means that I may earn a commission when you click on or make purchases via affiliate links. The content of this clip is entirely my opinion, and was not paid for or dictated in any what by the company creating the gear. Without addressing the particulars of products shown here as they might be under NDA, gear shown on this channel may be either sent by the manufacturer, on loan for review or bought at a discount.
That was concise and entertaining, good job!
To help Maths to find the frequency of the oscillator, I would use a square wave with short pulse rather than a sawtooth.
🤯 so great! One of the coolest maths tips ever. Can't wait to do this.
Reminds me that there's always something new to discover with modular. Can't wait to set this one up. Thanks!
This is excellent. Thanks for this video. I'm just getting started with Maths, and this is one of my favorite uses thus far.
Hey loopop, I just tried this trick and it's wild. Thanks for sharing. I wish that Maths tracked better across a wider range of input frequencies when doing this!
Another amazing video. I’ve been gassing for a Subharmonicon since MoogFest so this helps and is awesome!
I have watched this video plenty of times over the last months and everytime, it gets clearer. Thanks a lot, loopop, you absolutely rock! Could you do Joranalogue Generate&Filter? I’d also like to see how you’d approach of Mutable Instruments Marbles.
I'm late to the table on this one. Just got an Abacus a few months ago, so I gave this a try. Very cool! I wish I had a better understanding of what was going on here.
Next level!!! Intelligent use of modules. Gonna try this one :)
Oh my god! This is freaking awesome!!! I know what I’m patching tonight, thanks so much 🖤
Another great video man. Keep em up! 👍🏻
Just the kind of tip I was looking for. Thanks friend!
Pretty sure this video was the final deciding factor for me getting a Maths module :D currently building out the Behringer 2500 series modules, super stoked!
I just learned something new!! Awesome
really cool and imaginative patch!
Thanks for the video! Really helpful as usual.
Definitely going to try this!! Nice!
Awesome man, thanks for this post!
Wow! That was rad! I gotta try this now.
Wow, this is incredible! I've been wishing I had gone to Moogfest to make a Subharmonicon, but now I might have to try this method out
Awesome as always
brillant ! How did I miss this video !
super cool. trying this.
this sounds gorgeous
Thanks for this, thats awesome!
Awesome, thank you very much 🙏🏻
I would love to have more videos with verbos modules.
OK. I have to comment. Even my laptop speakers enjoyed your beginning underscore! Thanks for your great vids.
Thank you ;) I’ll post them separately on my instagram feed without me interfering...
This is great. Im going to try this as soon as i get home.
Just gave this patch a go. It’s great! When I added a sub oscillator, it created chords! This is gonna merit some serious time. I am now thinking of different ways to add complexity to it: VC delay line to the sub harmonics? Waveshaper? Waveform animation? So many possibilities!!
i like to combine it with a filter having two different lfos on cut off and on rise of one of maths channels
self patch one side over into the other's rise or both jack for FM. love the sub idea, going to repatch for that!
I think you just sold a whole bunch of maths!
Tony Rolando owes him a "Thank you." :-D
For sure
Or you can get yourself two cheap slope generators and a mixer and a couple of attenuverters.
I find Maths is one of the most overhyped Eurorack modules ever made. Don't get me wrong, sure their great Slope Generators, but man it does my head in the amount people trip over what is basically a looping AD generator.
@@anthonybrett Just as an exercise of curiosity, I had a look. Maybe you can find better, but the best I found was the Serge Dual Universal Slope (£248.40 full kit at Thonk) which is 26 HP; the 2hp mix at £95; and Befaco Dual Attenuverter (£51.66 full kit, also at Thonk) which is 5 HP. All prices including UK VAT at 20%. Total cost - £395.06 (plus your time to build two of these modules). Total space 33 HP. The two kits can be bought as panel and PCB only at reduced cost, but then you have to buy all the components, and I couldn't be bothered to investigate all that too!
Edit: there are cheaper mixers available at Thonk (eg, Befaco at £58.80 inc. VAT), but they're all wider than the 2hp. You take your choice.
Best price I found for Maths (where it was in stock) was £265. Total space 20 HP.
But, whatever works for you. :-)
@@ShanghaiRooster Well, sure but, what average Eurorack person doesn't already have two ADSR/AD/LFO,EtcEtc with loops , mixers and an attenuverter or two. They are standard kit. So lets not jump to the conclusion that we need to buy it all. It was merely an exercise in parallel thinking.
If you don't own!! a maths and maybe cant afford one just yet, there are plenty of ways of emulating it with a bunch of stuff you probably already own!
Hopefully I sent someone on a new line of thought.
Cheers dude
Excellent! Aside: the popular (but less ubiquitous) Just Friends module from Whimsical Raps can also provide the subharmonic series when set to SOUND/CYCLE and INTONE is fully counter-clockwise. On the one hand, you get nice wave shapes and the ability to morph them. On the other hand, it’s six separate fixed frequency (releative to the fundamental) outputs to deal with. What to do with them is the challenge. (I tend to run them into RxMx.) The nice thing about this Maths example (works on the DUSG too) is that you can CV the division, making it arguably more immediately useful-and “paraphonic” in the sense they can go in different independent directions.
This is where a Teletype is useful in extending the functionality of Just Friends.
I look forward to being able to get my hands on one.
I wondered.
The mannequins mangrove does it too! I'm pretty sure the Mangrove is an audio-optimized slope generator paired with an internal clock source and a VCA. think about the Mangrove's parameters and how they relate to the controls on a slope generator and it starts to make sense.
I just did this trying out the example, and it sounds great. I threw a sample and hold on both rise times inverting one of the signals. Then synced the S&H clock..... I just happily lost an hour of my life.
Excellent!
thanks man! my life would never be the same !
my maths will arrive today ! cant wait to check this out :-)
Beautiful. Thanks!
Think I've watched this around 8 times so far. There's so many subtle changes you can make which switches the harmonics and adds FM like distortions. I've taken the sum, plus OR and directed them to separate processing (delay for one, granular witchcraft with the other) and I can switch between each one via AV3. I have AV1/2 assigned to the rise for minor adjustments. All sorts of fun and it's very unpredictable...mainly in a good way. Thanks for the video. Always a pleasure!
Thanks so much for this! I would love a Subharminicon, but this will have to do, and it's not a bad alternative! =]
My favorite patch with the Serge Dual Slope Generator ;-)
Great job. Always wondered what the inputs 1 and 4 did to the audio signals from Maths.
chords at the beginning sound like Boards of Canada
Quick tip if you want to do this with Rampage by Befaco, I've found that logarithmic operation is best. Time to explore the depths of the subharmonic series!
I’ve been thinking about getting into modular for a while. If I ever do, top of my list of modules to get has always been Maths. This is why.
Brilliant !
brilliant!
wow. never thought of using maths that way. thank you!
You're amazing :D I managed to get a similar tone with VCV rack using only Befaco Rampage and some Even VCOs!! like you said I didn't have the range, but with some nifty dividers/tuning I am very happy, thank you!
Funny, I also ran directly to vcv rack and tried it with Rampage... I also tried it with a clock divider and it works pretty well...
@@OmriCohen-Music Hoping that a boring and cold rainy winter day will push you to offer us a video on the alternatives of Maths on VCV. If it's not already done. Oh I forget a little glass of wine to watch the rain fall by the window :).
@@OmriCohen-Music French wine, of course hihi!
@@anatrax8 That's a really good idea for a video, thank you! I don't know about the weather though... Sunny days are way more inspiering than gray ones...
@@OmriCohen-Music Same, flood warning day for us, hope for better days, sun and sound system. Thank you, your videos are precious. It's so difficult, at home nothing sounds, to sink into despair.
Your channel is becoming an amazing destination for my mind and ears. Thanks as always!
Brian Bush that’s the best I could hope for :)
Sick trick
I've recently gone to school for audio engineering after wondering what I was doing wrong while trying to build a patch like this, and it makes sense why I was failing to get results like this.
I didn't understand everything but I still think this is awsome!
Don't have a Maths here, but this works very well with Doepfer A-172-1 VCS. I found that if I set up a second A-172-1 with a fast rise and slow fall, and stick the same source oscillator into it that changes it's amplitude with the incoming pitch. If I scale that and transpose it, then use it to modulate the CV of the upslope from the first A-172-1 (the sub harmonic one), then it tracks pitch pretty well, so I can set a division, play a melody into it, and the subharmonic tracks the note as it changes. If you don't invert that modulation control, it tracks the inverse of the melody which is 'interesting' :). Obviously the tracking range is limited, but it's still good enough to be useful when set up right.
It helps to have a scope set up to tweak the offset for the secondary slope generator - you can see what you are doing then :)
Marvellous 😃❤️👍🏻👍🏻
Awesome!
Salutation Good Sir,
Thank you for this clear and concise explanation of Maths and subharmonics.
Subharmonics are getting lots of love these days and definitely add another "geometric dimension" to sound. Have you had a chance to try out the Blue Lantern "Subharmonics Generator"? It is described as a VCO helper; intriguing. I guess different groups are approaching subharmonics in different ways.... the buzz of the town for now. Cheers.
I have not tried the Blue Lantern one but looks legit and at a nice price too!
Always so insightful. Thanks Ziv! Btw, that last sequence reminds me of some Thom Yorke work. Very cool.
I loved the progression in the beginning so much I turned it into a song
do share!
This is great! And I have two Maths and two DFAMS!
amazing
god damn, that verbos oscillator is literally the greatest thing I've ever heard on youtube. Guess it's time to start saving for it!
you're mostly hearing maths sub oscillators in this video, but indeed, that versos is pretty sweet
@@loopop really!? wow, okay i will have to give that a try then.
@@hubert4348 LOL your mind has been blown!
WOW. Are you going to make more Maths vids? These are great
Thanks! If I make any more this week I’ll officially be the maths channel... but if a good enough idea comes along - sure :)
Fascinating stuff! I am going to test this with my Function today. One question: what are you using to modulate the Rise on Maths? Thanks!
I was using the sequencer positions on DFAM (straight up voltage levels)
This is ace 👌
I actually kind of like the shaky transitions on Maths. Idk if that's from Maths or Verbos, but I can definitely see that shakiness being used in a cool way!
For sure
Hiii, so I got a Deluge in part after watching your videos and I am trying to get it synced up to the eurorack/external gear/as well as work in some drum triggers (keith mcmillen boppad) and maybe a roli eventually. I saw a few people on MW saying they bought 2x polyend poly modules and were pairing them with good success with the Deluge. Really want to use the Deluge as the hub for everything with the release of 2.0. Have you tried paring them before by chance? Any thoughts on this connection or any alternatives? It seems dollar for dollar really good on paper compared to like the expert sleeper modules and such, though its a shame you cant manually assign the outputs. Im hoping it would be possible to use velocity and mod data mapped on the Deluge midi notes to output cv value from the poly and basically hack around that limitation to some degree, is that possible? Also have an OCD CV on the way which will give me a lot of trigger outs. anyway sorry to write a novel but would like to hear your thoughts :) thx
I’ve been wanting one of the Moog Subharmonicon’s. I wish they’d mass produce them.
Until they do check out the 0-coast video I just published :)
magic !
Very nice patch! Been toying around with subharmonics using clock dividers, they will give you octaves if you have a by 2 / 4 / 8 divider but actually should give you the subharmonicon ones if you have a by 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 .. divider, right? That could be an interesting trigger source for a maths or rampage as well.
Yes, a clock divider should work great unless it’s trigger is too short and then it just might not sound good
The intro reminded me of Apparat - Dawan, inspired him maybe :)
more subharmonicon videos pls pls pls
I wonder if turning the log / lin / exp knob would have any effect on the outcome of the divided waveform?
And also what does maths do if you send the same audio signal into the trig input and the normal audio input of the same channel at the same time?
Have you tried the Doepfer A-113? And if so, I'd be interested in your opinion regarding the topic of subharmonic generation. Great content of yours as always! Thanks a lot.
I have not tried it unfortunately - would certainly like to at some point!
Hey Sir! I would LOVE LOVE LOVE if you could show some deep tricks with Verbos Harmonic Oscillator. How about a 10-15 trips/tricks with Verbos HO video? pretty please.
Sorry... it was a loaner...
The socks are off. This is fantastic.
That was really interesting! I tried to do something similar in vcv rack, using Rampage, and it worked pretty well. Just like with Maths it has some weird notes in between, but in general, it's ok. Is it not possible to divide the signal using a clock divider? It's like the sub oscillator trick, using a clock divider to get the lower frequency... I will check it out now... Thanks!
In theory it should be the same thing - depends on what waveform the clock divider is outputting. Let us know!
Yepp, it works really nicely! The only thing is, as expected, the clock divider outputs a square wave... Is the waveform of the subharmonics coming out from the Subharmonicon matches the "input" waveform, or it also outputs just square waves? Well, regarding the clock, it makes sense because a clock is a clock is a clock... Anyway, I found a clock divider with divisions of 3, 5, and 7, so it works pretty well...
Cool. This and the Subharmonicon output sawtooth waves. Here it’s because the rise makes it happen. Don’t know how the Subharmonicon does it
Yup, first thing I tried when I started watching this vid too.
Great ! I was accually wondering if rampage would work and you answered ! Kudos to you !
And Loopop, as usual, amazing video !
If you want to reduce the transition glitch, you need to find a way to shorten the fall time of the function generator. Not sure how to do that with Maths, probably some CV input or other will do the job.
Thanks so much for the great idea! I have been lusting after a Subharmonicon for a while now and never would have come up with this on my own! I do have one question for you...when I try this I get a lot more instability in the transitions than you do. There are a few differences in what I am doing...DPO instead of Verbos (as I don't have one) and my Maths is the older version with the original knob layout. Do you think that could that be the difference? I'm also sequencing the DPO so that the root note moves as well as the sub-harmonics (2 Pressure Points gives me 8 steps of 3 voltages so I can do the root and both SHs)
Anyway...thanks and great video!
I should work with any oscillator. I don’t have DPO. Make sure your fall is set to minimum and slope to exponential and let me know if that works out...
Amazeballs
Great Video, i heard you that we can use Dfam VCO directly with Maths ? or i missing something ?
Thanks. And yes you can
Haven’t tried it yet but was thinking that maybe the gate outputs send out a square wave in this patch? Not sure if the tuning would be right though.
Thanks for the video. Have you tried the Doepfer subharmonic generator?
Welcome - No I have not - seems cool!
@loopop I’m new to the world of synth, and really appreciate your videos! Would something like this be possible with 0-coast and Dfam? I also have a Grandmother if that would help make this happen
Th' Reverend Rattletrap yes, you can create subharmonics with 0-coast - check out my 0-coast tutorial
Is Moog DFAM worth getting? I was trying to find a more modular way of creating a percussion set up, but I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by all of the modules I would need in order to do what DFAM already does
I may missed, but bear with me Im a beginner. Everything is somewhat clear to me, but what is the DFAM-trigger out, triggering the Hermon A input? Im trying to recreate with Torso T1 instead Hermod using the CV Input, but not sure what I try to trigger. thanks
Can the Maths emulate the trapezoid generator of the VCS3? Could you show an example patch?
That's a really nice glass case for eurorack. Where can I find one? Also, which modules are in there other than maths?
See description
Amazing video,
Would you be so kind of sharing where I can get a perspex eurorack case like yours please?
Thx so much
Best!
Thanks! And sure - see link in description
@@loopop thank u so much
Cool acrylic case! did you buy it or it's DIY?
Here you go: www.through-u.com/
For this to work for me, I need the cycle to be on. Do you know why this would be? My maths is the newer one with white knobs., maybe just needs cycle on to treat the trig in as a signal?
Hey, cycle doesn't need to be on, I believe I have a new maths too - cycle on will interfere...
Hi @loopop, I am not 100% sure of the gear needed for it. If I have a Mother 32 and nothing else (no modular at all), can you just tell me the minimum set up, using Math, to get subharmonicon mimic ? :) Thanks a lot, and congrat for your amazing work!
Hey, there are a few options but it’s too much to go through in a comment. Just follow closely - you can make it happen!
@@loopop Thanks for your quick answer :). I will try to get informations about what you actually use in the video ;)
That's awesome. Maths is so mutch bang for buck
Captain!, that case!!! Where did fid that beauty?
Aye she’s a beauty.... www.through-u.com
Loopop “Divide down,” circuitry’?
Not a better patch but I found something interesting in this video from make noise about advanced envelope shapes (czcams.com/video/18ve3t1xJVU/video.html). As far as I understand it you can patch the oscillator in on itself at the rise or fall and change the frequency and shape of it. Idk if those are technically subharmonics, but it might sound cool.
Well, unless moog decides to release the subharmonicon any time soon, guess I'm getting a maths
is there a way to mimic this with a vst?
not familiar with the DFAM - what are you sending to Math's channels 1 & 4?
DFAM trigger is to the Hermod, velocity and pitch to MATHS rise 1&4
This is WAY late, but the Oscillator Mangrove by whimsical rhaps has a utone
nice :) , is there any way to achieve this with any of the available modules in VCVrack? i know it would be a sphagetti monster , but im not smart enough to replicate what maths is doing
env4n3 use rampage
How does the MATHS know to shift to even divisions? Is there something inside the MATHS that is activated when sending an audio-rate signal to the trigger input?
it's a totally analog process and has nothing to do with the rate. the rise stage ignores new triggers. If you want a deeper explanation I'll be explaining this in the January update to my book
@loopop, so make noise function should be able to do the same yes?
I believe so. Haven’t tried it
I’ll let those interested in the thread know!