What was the Latter-day Saint Black priesthood ban? Ep. 149
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- From the mid-1800s until 1978, Black men were not permitted priesthood ordination within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In this episode, Dave reviews the history of this practice. He explores when and how it developed, why it persisted for so long, and offers his opinion on whether or not it was a practice that was instituted by God.
Video Transcript: bit.ly/3JiVua6
Contents of this video:
0:00 Introduction
1:40 The beginning of the ban, & prior precedent
5:02 Solidifying the ban
7:21 Old justifications
10:10 Spencer W. Kimball and the 1978 revelation
11:27 Unity among the Brethren
13:31 Caving to external pressure?
14:19 Ban instituted by God?
15:12 New justifications
16:37 The invitation of fallibility
18:09 Why didn't God stop it sooner?
19:43 Jesus Christ heals
“Amos C. Brown: Follow the LDS Church’s example to heal divisions and move forward” via Salt Lake Tribune: bit.ly/3upX3yB
“Spencer W. Kimball and the Revelation on Priesthood,” by Edward Kimball: bit.ly/3B61GyT
“Race and the Priesthood,” Gospel Topics Essay: bit.ly/2UkGLHa
“Forty Years After 126 Years: Reflections from an Aging Black Man in Zion,” by Dr. Marcus Martins: bit.ly/3Av999v
“A Century of Black Mormons” project (University of Utah): bit.ly/3h9iBbQ
“#22 - Race and Mormonism in the 19th Century, with Paul Reeve and Ardis Parshall (part 1 of 2)” via the Maxwell Institute Podcast: bit.ly/3DmtfUm part 2 of 2 here: bit.ly/31lPUDm
Resources on this subject from Blacklds.org: bit.ly/3Ap6v5K
“Making Sense of the Church’s History on Race,” by Paul Reeve: bit.ly/3qPkE8c
LDS Living interview with Mauli Bonner and Paul Reeve: bit.ly/36aO8nf
Terryl Givens interviews Paul Reeve on this topic: bit.ly/2SJHscT
June 21, 2021 Church News press conference that gives a great sense of the current relationship between the Church and the NAACP: bit.ly/3wjxEEg
“The Mormon Cross,” by Eugene England: bit.ly/3B6Kmtl
“Looking Back, Looking Forward: ‘Mormonism’s Negro Doctrine’ Forty-Five Years Later,” by Lester E. Bush Jr.: bit.ly/2UaDTNu
“David O. McKay’s 1954 Confrontation with Mormonism’s Black Priesthood Ban,” by Newell G. Bringhurst: bit.ly/36G3fVW
“David O. McKay and Blacks: Building the Foundation for the 1978 Revelation,” by Gregory A. Prince: bit.ly/3rbh3Bn
“The LDS Church and the Race Issue: A Study in Misplaced Apologetics,” by Armand L. Mauss: bit.ly/36bO5rk
“Mormonism and the Negro,” by Armand L. Mauss: bit.ly/3B25Dob
“The Fading of Pharaohs’ Curse: The Decline and Fall of the Priesthood Ban Against Blacks in the Mormon Church,” by Armand L. Mauss: bit.ly/3kkiw6U
“Shouldering the Cross: How to Condemn Racism and Still Call Brigham Young a Prophet,” by Russell Stevenson: bit.ly/3xfcl7N
Additional info and resources via Blacklatterdaysaints.org: bit.ly/36Co0lC
Treatment of this topic via “Latter-day Saint Q & A”: bit.ly/3hcKO1u
Some additional info on Elijah Able (Church’s website): bit.ly/3qLkWwS
“The origin of the Mormon priesthood ban,” by FAIR: bit.ly/3hcjv7x
“What did Church leaders after Brigham Young think of the priesthood ban?”: bit.ly/3w7Blww
Record of Elijah Able’s preaching certificate, which mentions his ordination to the priesthood (Church History Catalog): bit.ly/2Ufj1Vc
Further reading:
“Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness,” by W. Paul Reeve (specifically chapters 4-7).
“David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism,” by Gregory A. Prince & Wm. Robert Wright (specifically chapter 4).
I have yet to read these books but I’ve heard good things about them: “For the Cause of Righteousness: A Global History of Blacks and Mormonism, 1830-2013,” by Russell Stevenson; and “The Mormon Church and Blacks: A Documentary History” by Matthew L. Harris and Newell G. Bringhurst. Here’s a review of these last two books via BYU: bit.ly/3Akf6GV
Notes:
- As space is limited in the CZcams description, please visit this episode’s post on our website, SaintsUnscripted.com, for additional notes on this episode.
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This is an exceptional presentation. Thanks very much David. I am an African and i have had a hard time accepting this part of the history of the church but in all i believe the Lord knows best . I have accepted the fact that our leaders our human just like as they make mistakes. This is the time to move on as fellow saints,be united for the course of Zion and declare the restored gospel to all .
Amen brother!❤️
Amen brother,
Sebastian, I admire your faith and your humility. It reminds me of the story of the Canaanite woman in Matthew chapter 15. “And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table”.
Deferring understanding and walk by faith is what our Savior requires of us. Thank you.
1 Nephi 12:23 👨🏿🦲👍🏿
Sebastian, I'm wondering if I can play devil's advocate with you for a minute. I don't necessarily hold this position, but the thought has crossed my mind: does it make any difference to you to consider that, despite this mistake, the lord has a plan and a gospel of work for the dead to make sure all the past members priesthood and temple blessings are secured? I mean, no matter what caused all this, or matter what let it go on for so long, in certain most of those members caught in between have had their work done for them. Does that at least secure your testimony in the lord if not in that imperfect men?
This video is respectful and amazing. I wish fellow members of the Church was more informed about this topic.
I’ve heard hurtful comments from members like “they never lost the priesthood because in the next life they can have it”…
Sometimes I get this vibe from other members that because they aren’t black it isn’t an issue to them. And sometimes some members flat out say that.
Every member of the Church must face this question.
I attended the Be One event at the general conference center during my mission, which was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life. We can all learn from the life stories shared that day of black members from across the world.
That being said, I am so grateful for the Official Declaration 2. Because of that revelation I was able to enjoy the blessings of the priesthood, and be sealed to my parents, and my wife. Families can be together forever.
@@deweydewey6714 Hm… I’d say you’re wrong. I read what you said. And I’m shocked by your negative passion.
Are you trying to say that God literally cursed people with dark skin?
Hey! I appreciate your comment and your personal story and testimony has to be very dear to you. It has to be a very personal experience for you to experience the LDS-priesthood. I'm not LDS-believer but I have genuine questions. Could you help me answering these, since you must be way more knowledgable about LDS-Church's doctrine? My questions are:
1) Aren't the Church Presidents considered Prophets? Don't they have a unique teaching authority and ability to know what god's will is?
2) In LDS-faith, is there any idea of a doctrinal infallibility? Can matters of faith and morals (like whether black priesthood is morally permissible or whether black people descend from Ham and are cursed in some way) change over time? Why should we trust in church that progressively gets new revelation in the future? Can the Christ's Church change its doctrine on for example LGBT issues or the supposed "trans-rights" over time? Doesn't this contradict Matthew 16 where Jesus says Himself that the "gates of Hell will not prevail against my Church"?
In Swahili language we have a proverb ; Yaliyopita si ndwele tugange yajayo na kisha maji yakisha mwagika hayazoleki.
Meaning: Whatever is in the past should not ail you, instead focus on the future, and besides spilled water cannot be gathered.
I got the priesthood in June of 1978....and then made many cherished acquaintances with black people on my mission in Brazil.
Thanks for acknowledging the lengths that Spencer W. Kimball went to in order to encourage unity among the General Authorities. Changing this policy took a lot of courage and the unified assemblage being present together to feel the Lord's spirit in the process was essential to it's success.
I feel it’s important to not call it a “mistake”. It wasn’t something that happened by accident. It was RACISM. It should be labeled and spoken about as such because to continue to use other reasons minimizes the intention behind the ban. As a devout Latter-Day Saint, I can and do refer the denial of the Priesthood to Black people as a racist act. It was.
I agree with it. We should call it at least but it’s name that’s the least we can do for our brothers they suffered trough it
So not a mistake but rather a choice that hindered the growth of Zion. Man… if only we all made choices that didn’t hinder the work of the Lord progressing. A parable:
We came to a cliff with Heavenly Father. We looked down and He said, “The only way forward is to fall. You will parachute down this cliff and we will give you further instructions.” 1/3 of His children said “Heck no, I am not doing that. It is too scary and I don’t want to get hurt. I’d rather stay here and die.” As we went forward and down, we got hurt. And then there is a LONG journey up to the top of the next cliff where the City of Zion is. At the bottom of the cliff where we fell and got hurt, we met Jesus. He is our guide and shows us the places to climb up to reach the top of the next cliff where the City of Zion (Celestial Kingdom is). We have to follow each step of the way, exactly as the Savior tells us to reach it. It is a hard climb and sometimes our arms cannot take it or hold on. We are weak. We slip, we fall. But Jesus is right there helping us if we reach to Him. Some fell forward only to decide just as the 1/3 who didn’t fall forward down the cliff to just stay here at the bottom and perish. But to those who see the climb and don’t stop, they can choose to keep going and have the faith to overcome this mountain we had to climb to progress on our journey. Eve was the first one to make the choice, though she was beguiled into it. Satan told her that God didn’t love her and did not want her to know what He knew. So she went forth to obtain knowledge, even knowing the consequences that lay ahead. Adam had to fall to save Eve, for only through their seed would be born a Savior to fix it. We learned about love through what we suffer here. And we learn about diligence and perseverance by what we suffer here too. All of these lessons is the way forward, progressing us into the cliff that is before the city of Zion, the Celestial kingdom. We have it in our grasp if we obey and follow, even if it takes a while to get it right. ❤️🙏🏽🌷
The Church is a growing, learning entity too, and just as Christ gave us the grace to keep going with encouragement and not harsh condemnations so should we give a little grace for others who make mistakes along the way, including the Church’s leaders.
It's quite a dilemma when the church is the "Restored Church". How could a restored church be so fundamentally wrong in something so essential as the priesthood; when John The Baptist himself had appeared to Joseph Smith, and laid hands on him to restore the priesthood?
I believe it was more of a misinterpretation of scripture than anything.
@@richardholmes5676 Was it? Nothing scripturally in this video proved the ban wrong. My question is, why do people always have to throw out the word racism every time they don't agree with something? A ban on blacks not be allowed to have the priesthood does not equal racism.
Thank you David, I admire your courage and the wonderful missionary work you do. I like your show, you are really part of this generation chosen for these last days. Valiant soldiers, advocates of the faith and of the restoration. From a Sister of Color French Montreal.
David and Taylor. Literally my heroes!!!! Amazing video. Perfect editing and graphics. Thank you so much for putting so much thought and effort into this really awesome video!
I want to thank you for tackling a very sore subject with me. I have been a member of this church for more than five decades and have always struggled with this issue. I could not understand why the priesthood would be withheld from an entire race if people. And when I questioned it with leaders and teachers I never got an answer that satisfied me. Like polygamy it was a practice in the church that never made any sense but I lived with it hoping that one day I would have the answers. I was on my mission when the announcement was made that the priesthood would be extended to all men. I was so happy because I saw it as the church finally correcting a long injustice. When nonmembers question me about this or polygamy I simply say "I dont know for certain why these things were done but the mistakes have been corrected."
Polygamy was always a ordinance made by the Lord. Abraham, Isaac , Jacob, all had more than one wife and or concubines. It was not considered a sin. Joseph Smith himself had more than one wife. He did not want to do this. As when the angel of the Lord came before him and said obey. Yet he resisted. So the Lord sent an angel again , except this time he came with a sword. And so Joseph did as he was demanded. Still the rumors are everywhere that he did many things morally wrong . As with the fourteen year old LDS daughter of Heber Kimbel. But he never had relations with her. She didn't want to marry him and Joseph knew this. He did seal himself to her , and that isn't where it needed. After she got older and found the man she loved. Joseph divorced her and broke the seal so she could be sealed to her husband. He er just worried she would not get to heaven. Joseph delt with many who did not understand God's plan.
Hey! I appreciate your comment and your personal story and testimony has to be very dear to you. It has to be a very personal experience for you to experience the LDS-priesthood. I'm not LDS-believer but I have genuine questions. Could you help me answering these, since you must be way more knowledgable about LDS-Church's doctrine? My questions are:
1) Aren't the Church Presidents considered Prophets? Don't they have a unique teaching authority and ability to know what god's will is?
2) In LDS-faith, is there any idea of a doctrinal infallibility? Can matters of faith and morals (like whether black priesthood is morally permissible or whether black people descend from Ham and are cursed in some way) change over time? Why should we trust in church that progressively gets new revelation in the future? Can the Christ's Church change its doctrine on for example LGBT issues or the supposed "trans-rights" over time? Doesn't this contradict Matthew 16 where Jesus says Himself that the "gates of Hell will not prevail against my Church"?
The ending is probably the most genuine and kind opening thing I’ve ever seen. It’s true. The priesthood ban did NOT put a stop to the plan of happiness. It does not stop Christ’s work to be brought about, and it does not stop gods plan to bring about all men to their highest potential. All men, even during the time of the ban, were welcomed to the gospel. We KNOW from modern revelation that if men do not receive it in this life, they will be given the chance in the next.
We KNOW as faithful saints that ALL MEN AND WOMEN who this ban may have rejected in this life, will be restituted in the next. That god did not lift this ban immediately because this ban in no way shape or form harmed the coming about of the salvation and exaltation of man.
Edit: I wrote this BEFORE you said exactly what I just wrote, I wrote it at 19:40.. that’s embarrassing..
It's almost as if God was always ready for the ban to be lifted, He was just waiting for us to take action. That's how a lot of my prayers are answered!
Yes. It is definitely a lesson to us in revelation. We have to make ourselves ready for more and open our hearts and minds.
It could have happened so much sooner if the leadership had just acted on it.
For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
@@kevinpeterson6468 they truly struggled to do the process correctly on the issue. So many questions. So many unknowns. They had to put a task force together to figure out all the statements to figure out if it was even doctrine or if it was just a political game. Fortunately, it was figured out and I hope we can move forward from here to build Zion with all our black brothers and sister no more excluded from the city of Zion. ❤️🙏🏽
But the lord says that he won’t allow his prophets to lead the church astray
Thank you so much for making this video. You approached this topic with both scholarship and faith, which is exactly what I'm looking for to understand these issues. I really appreciate what you've done here.
What an incredible, thoughtful, and well-researched video! You shared a lot of my own conclusions that I have drawn from the same sources. Thank you for this!
This is the best explanation of The Ban that I have ever heard. Great job!
This was fantastic and very well done, a challenging topic to address adequately but you did it! A video resource I hope is shared when talking about race and the priesthood.
I was just getting ready to return from my LDS mission, and we were at the mission home in Bloomington Minnesota when we received word of the prophet’s announcement. I wept with joy at the blessing that blacks could now enjoy.
Thank you guys for talking about this manner, this part of the history of the Church has given me the most thoughts and questions that I've ever had, mostly because of the reasons around it, I find it hard to believe about the "curse things" [after that I have read both Genesis and Abraham's Account] and other theories that had made about this ban. I am grateful for the resources that I have learned from modern scholars, the churches essay, and even from you guys that I started to get the piece things right and started to get clearer to me. I agree with you Brother David with your opinion on the matter, sometimes we cannot escape this "mortal probation" [ or challenges] and we eventually sometimes make mistakes and get things wrong, sometimes that God does not reveal to us the whole truth, it is something that all us mortals can get misunderstood what truths that God trying to make, in D&C 1: 24-28 summarize it well:
“Behold, I am God and have
spoken it; these commandments are of me and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding. And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; And inasmuch as they
sought wisdom they might be instructed; And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent; And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from the time
to time”
God knew that errors would happen to us, but [ I believe that] these things shouldn't be an issue, we just need to be patience and be humble about it when going down to the complexity.
One thing for sure, we have leaders of the Church despite their flaws or even have to bear such hard history in our Church, they will never lead us astray [ it was their promise] and they have been with us, that's why they called leaders because "they lead us", to guide us in these latter days. I'm grateful for them and other leaders we have today as we go forward with faith and walk uprightly before the Lord in our trying times. I hope people would find answers to their questions, and I hope they will continue to press on.
You learned from this video that church prophets will never lead us astray? I got the opposite.
Wow I was thinking about this topic yesterday and I had some questions and this video came up thanks
Wonderful insights and research. I really appreciate your work on this. I might add that as a student of American history, in the mid 1800's to mid 1900's, the LDS church would have come under even greater persecution and likely greater pressure than it did had blacks been given the priesthood. In Joseph Smith's America, had it also been made broadly aware that blacks were being given the priesthood, Joseph likely would have been accused of trying to get slaves to escape or rebel. Add that to the great challenge faced by the church over polygamy, and there would have been an even more volatile possibliity of accusation of the church allowing/encouraging blacks to be equal to whites, to marry white women, and the salicious rumors about the sexual practices of the church would have been even more vile, given the ugliness directed at black men, who were seen as predatory, violent sexual "animals" from the 1800's on through the 1960's. So, maybe not a revelation from God, but certainly it was likely that in some ways, it prevented even worse persecution than happened, and perhaps allowed the church to survive those early times. Just a thought.
Some how it was easy to disavow polygamy in order for Utah to get statehood but, in a strange twist of fate the one true church with the restored priesthood was somehow behind in social progress?
Excellent video. Just goes to show even the prophets can be wrong, they were human and fallible as the rest of us. It goes to show how asking The Lord about the question was so important, not just assumed. It's a pity it took so long before things changed, but I guess the Church had to be worthy to get that blessing back.
Yes, it's a relief to know that I can call out a prophet and the church when they're wrong.
I think it was fair to say it was wrong to have a ban to begin with. It reminds me of the eye for an eye tradition that Jews had for such a long time. Christ taught a higher law but didnt rebuke the old law as a false tradition. He fulfilled what should have been practiced for centuries. We can say the world should have given blacks authority since the very beginning and that would be a world that probably wouldn't have killed their Savior. I think injustice is allowed to teach how slow and dumb some of the limitations existed that probably didnt need to exist. Progression is the ultimate indicator that we are stepping toward the right direction. The only goal now is to go through the door and shut it behind ourselves.
What a fine research about the topic! It's well written and understandable. Thank you for sharing this! I totally agree and this episode increased my understanding regarding the topic.
Exelente explicación! Gracias David por darnos tan detallada y buen resumen sobre este tema.
Por qué este video continúa en CZcams y el de ustedes fue borrado? Después de todo, es exactamente lo mismo, palabra por palabra.
Part of the problem is that this issue was not resolved by the church. The 1978 proclamation was only part of the solution. Members still have many questions about this topic which have not been answered. Not discussing the past openly creates problems. Gospel Topics Essays only scratches the surface. The 2018 40th anniversary only celebrated the end of the ban. It is stories like this segment that are welcome additions to the discussion of the priesthood ban.
In my opinion the Church’s unwillingness to address those questions and admit that hundreds-of thousands (if not millions) of tithe-paying members of African descent were devalued, disenfranchised and defrauded call’s the morals and ethics of church leadership into question. Which then, logically, calls into question the Church’s legitimacy.
The only thing, in my mind, that would address this is a full-throated global apology to every member of African descent as well as a funding commitment from the first presidency to build a diversity-and-inclusion sensitivity training program for all Church leaders with a calling above Pianist.
@@masterdeja Nice suggestion, but the church almost never apologizes for past mistakes. I think BYU was talking about diversity and inclusion training for staff and students last year. I don't know what happened with those plans.
Thank you David…. The mistake of the past, present or future leaders, high or low, whatever it is, could not be the base of our faith…. Because we are all humans….
This video was well done. Thank you
Excellent, honest, and thorough presentation of church history. I wish every member of the church could understand this. Many still think the ban was God’s will and that those doctrines are still true.
@@deweydewey6714 So you think that Brigham’s teaching that black people are cursed, divinely destined to be slaves until the millennium, and interracial marriage is a sin worthy of death to be inspired of God??
Good effort. Best handling of the topic I've seen from a church promoting source.
I’m so sick of the “products of their time” these are men that failed miserably to put off the natural man (who is an enemy to god) there is no justification for hatred among men who claim direct communication from god.. to dismiss the fact that a prophet said it was doctrine and not policy is not a simple mistake.. it’s blatantly obvious that it was a man who thought he spoke for god and bore false witness and taught and preached false doctrine.
I'm not sure that I am willing to conclude that it was a mistake, because it is not known. Knowing that president Kimball prayed about it for 15 years without an answer, makes me think that timing was important in its lifting. Perhaps the members weren't ready, perhaps other people weren't ready, don't know. But I have heard it said that the Lord prepares things well in advance, to accomplish his purposes. I think the time of the announcement was perfect based on it's over whelming acceptance. Also the growth of the church in Africa has exploded, which is another reason that the timing was right.
14:20
On my mission I thought about the difference between inspiration and revelation. And also about the Song of Solomon being “not inspired writing,” even though we keep in the KJV of the Bible. I concluded the same ideas.
I would go as far to say, I think it wasn’t even inspiration. It makes more sense to me that God was always ready for blacks to hold the priesthood, but we were not for a time.
But having personal revelation is key to all of this. Without out it, anything said about God means nothing.
One thing I've always tried to keep in mind was the nature of slavery in the country at the time when Young took over as prophet of the Church. Smith had just been murdered for His beliefs, which included the abolition of slavery, and the Government and slave owners had the Church and its' members in their crosshairs. slavery was a huge part of the culture and livelihoods of many in that day, and it could well be that Young presented Himself as being pro slavery or at least anti black assimilation and freedom as a way to appease the mobs and government, which had it out for the church because Smith was an abolitionist. perhaps the church simply kowtowed at first to the mobs, culture, and government on this matter, in order to save their own skin, and to prevent the extinction of the church, but that as time went on subsequent leaders didn't know that, and didn't want to undermine Young's position, as to make it appear as though the leadership of the church was united and therefore true prophets of God.
we for sure know that the nation and culture was not ready of black assimilation into religious practices, most other religions at that time still had segregated congregations, if they even allowed blacks to join them in the first place. However, the church never separated blacks and whites in church meetings, only in the higher positions and callings and ordinances. and as pointed out in this video that really all began with Young, and not with Smith.
another somewhat conspiracy theory on this topic, is that perhaps the churches kowtowing or inability to remain stalwart in the abolition beliefs, is what cause the Lord to allow the mobs to run the church out of Adam-ondi-Ahman in the first place. Smith prophesied that the saints would end up in the rocky mountains, and Young prophesied that the saints would one day return to Adam-ondi-Ahman, once the Lord had avenged the blood of the fallen saints in that area, and when the saints return there would not be so much as a yellow dog to wag its' tail. and the Lord did put the church under condemnation for not taking seriously the doctrines and teachings as revealed though Joseph. Perhaps Smith knew that the church had lost its' strong hold, and that the condemnation would result in a new path and that is why he prophesied that the saints would be driven west into the Rocky Mountains.
Thank you so much for this! You handled this difficult topic exceptionally. Keep doing what you're doing!
@@getharryonsax Spoken like a true cynic.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 All speculation and hearsay... There's simply no evidence to support your assertions for the ban being lifted. Nice try though.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 I did. According to FAIR LDS, it's a false claim. The story about the threat of losing tax-exempt status first originated from critics of the Church who made speculative claims about a meeting between President Carter and Spencer W Kimball in an article from the Chicago Tribune in 1988. The false claims resurfaced in a 2001 statement made by a woman named Kathy Erickson.
A representative of the LDS Church Public Affairs department responded: "It's one thing to distort history, quite another to invent it. Kathy Erickson (Forum, March 11) claims that the federal government threatened The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with its tax-exempt status in 1978 because of the church's position regarding blacks and the priesthood. We state categorically that the federal government made no such threat in 1978 or at any other time. The decision to extend the blessings of the priesthood to all worthy males had nothing to do with federal tax policy or any other secular law. In the absence of proof, we conclude that Ms. Erickson is seriously mistaken."
Sorry to disappoint, but according to the very source you referenced, the tax-exempt claim has been debunked as false.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 According to the source you told me to check out, the rumor that the Church was threatened by the US government regarding their tax exempt status is proven to be completely false.
@@mikkifrompreston4396 If you had read the source you are citing you would know they determined it was an Urban Myth with no support.
Furthermore, there are still religious organizations whose still banned certain groups from joining (like the KKK, which is legal a tax exempted religious organization) who ban membership based on skin color. Do you honestly think if that was a thing the Federal Government would not have removed the tax exempts status from the KKK?
I've reconciled it as this way: The church can still have true doctrines and revelations, while egregiously "missing the mark" historically as Christ said when it comes to equality and personal biases. I am saddened it took church culture over 100 years to finally see the mistake, but for me, it's not worth throwing out the good fruit in my life from being in the church just because the tree is full of rotten fruit. We're all imperfect I just am so glad that racism is no longer an active part of church culture.
In my youth i was taught the blacks denied Jesus preisthood. How wrong I was
So so good! Thank you!
Thank you for your web-site! You are doing a great work.
Absolutely amazing!
Excellent presentation on this very sensitive topic! I wish our countries history could be as transparent, and precise. No excuses for the past, but willing to not repeat history and make their same mistakes.
Zack Rucker. Huh? I think you meant "country's" instead of "countries". What country is denying their past? I'm not aware of any. In the USA we aren't doing that and haven't in my lifetime.
@@Hamann9631 thanks so much for catching that grammatical error. I'm such a dummy sometimes. Our COUNTRYS leaders or spokespersons always sugar coat things or not tell full story. All I'm saying.
Time stamp 17:40 - the word of wisdom as it’s interpreted today vs what is says in the D&C
At 18:58 the scripture in the Book of Mormon is Mormon 9:31
This is a very clarifying verse that helps us reckon with difficult issues that may test our faith regarding the leaders called by God to guide His church.
Thank you for your greatly thought out presentation. I to have greatly struggled with the ban, believing for much of the time it was from God even though definitely wishing it hadn't had to be. In a way now it's much easier to believe it was a serious mistake now than it was ever from the Lord. Even though the ban was lifted when I was 13, I've had struggles about it on and off, but as you say being as I am also a white man, I would have nothing of the struggles as black members and non members would have had during that time and also now. Thank you again for this video.
Amazing video!
You expressed my thoughts on this topic exactly, and much better than I ever could.
Very well done David.
This was so well researched and I appreciate the immense effort it must have taken to put this presentation together.
This is fantastic, it's hard to acknowledge the humanity that The Lord allows in Church membership and Leadership, but it is ever present. I would say it is a miracle that we have made as much progress as we have and that, put to the balance, despite our flaws, The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS has been a force for such good, that it outweighs the negative ramifications by orders of magnitude,
Good to know God was okay with his ordained church leaders from the “true” church low key spreading the same dehumanizing malicious white supremacist talking points and beliefs just like other evangelical faiths in America.
What would we all do without the LDS’s invaluable divine “revelations” and connection to God? Guess we’d all just become cannibals or something without their divine insight because most of us could never even imagine coming close to approaching their level of “righteousness.”
No worries though. God will sort it all out after we die, so no harm done right? Lol
@@Hesaysalot I understand it is difficult, not saying it isn't, but after watching this man, a person of color who experienced that trauma first hand.............and then feeling the Spirit witness to the truth of his testimony regarding our leaders................I van not comprehend just dismissing that off hand,
Godless you, I mean that in the northern not southern way lol
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger Or maybe I’m just recognizing that a God who is complicit in letting evils like racism happen in his “true church” either isn’t as good as you claim he is, the church has no real connection to God, or just that God flat out doesn’t exist.
But let me guess, racism pervading the LDS faith is somehow part of God’s 10D Chess strategy to lead everyone to salvation right? Lol
@@Hesaysalot Or maybe your concept of what God should and shouldn't do is a skew, I'm thankful for a loving heavenly father that had a plan that allowed for us to make mistakes and not suffer immediate fiery retribution because of them.
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger You can believe and keep proclaiming whatever you want, but that doesn’t change the fact your religion aided and to some degree still aides and gives credence to white supremacy, which allowed things like slavery and the Holocaust to happen, which are unequivocally evil. So anything that contributes to things like that happening is evil.
Just saying lol
Its odd I taught this subject to my Valiant 9 Class last year. As a Covid Convert of European Stock. I wrestle with alot of questions like this, in a healthy manner but for me it all goes back too Temples, we cannot know of the paths that were avoided. And the deep history of this topic in addition to the Strong testimony of those whos families this policy affected. There is in todays Narrative certain realities & Narratives I will accept that would exclude me from the Temple that are not Temple Recomend questions at this time, and all signs point to that not ever being the case, but even so if they were Amen if Im not welcome in the Temple, the Ordinances can continue in Full for those who have died. Thats the most important element of this dispensation, and its not about my Feelings. Im acknowledging this is a vastly different topic then Africans and The Priesthood, but its the closest I can come to what it feels like to have a Testimony, be judged by others, and though not excluded wrestling with the implication of such things, and where I fit into the Larger picture in this time.
I am completely confused to what you are trying to say. Are you not a native English speaker? If so, maybe that's my confusion. If you are, I'm complety lost as to your meaning.
@@joncharlotteschoen I am an English Speaking American and funny story...I was at a Family Reunion this weekend and this Man who married into the Family he and I got to talking and I asked him if he believes in Jesus and then he says...I knew this would eventually come up...and he proceeds to tell me hes an ex Latterday Saint and because of His Ancestry, this particular issue has really been a sore spot for him. And I've come to the point where I just dont think there are coincidences.
Thank you so much for this! 😊
Great video
This is the best video I have seen on the subject without biases. Fantastic work and I am so glad I watched the ful video
Wow, thank you!
Excellent video… thank you
I was just wondering about this and other related topics myself, because of so many people I know leaving the church. Alot has to do with basing their testimonies on their leaders and not the Gospel itself. There are many policies even today that don't align with the scriptures or other hard truths, but this is not a reason to abandon the Savior and his saving ordinances that are only done in authority in His church. 17:40
I also personally believe this is the way the Lord would preserve his church should a leader fall.
I like your presentation. Your very commentary is very astute, I wish there was more information about this in Joseph Smith's day. The Latter-Days Saints were against slavery and they were surrounded by Missourians who were slave state supporters and slave holders. I've always under the impression that the ban was put in place temporarily to avoid conflict with the Missourians. These were the same border ruffians that were murdering free state people in "Bleeding Kansas".
Wow the revelation document you recommended we read is absolutely incredible, even a sacred read. Thank you for sharing.
Absolutely phenomenal. Thank you
There was external pressure! The church would of lost its tax exemption status. Why have prophets and apostles who supposedly speak for God? The Book of Mormon is suppose to be the most correct book on earth and throughout history the leaders did not adhere to its teachings. That is why I’m no longer a member even though I grew up in the church. Study the history. Members will always stick up for the church.
And exmos will huff and puff till they blow the house down. Find an identity outside of Mormonism bro. Fact of the matter is Joseph made sense of the senseless. His revelations and insights into the nature of God alone are earth shattering and easily defensible by what Christians call Gods breathed word. You made the mistake of thinking your identity was not tied to the truths youve learned from God himself. You use to get up and bear testimony and now all u do is bear false witness. Awful is your state. You cant drown out the Holy Ghost bro that shit will haunt you the rest of your life. Joseph was a big G str8 up the author and finisher of your faith. Wherefore can ye doubt?
Lost their tax-exempt status? No. That’s silly. Religions are granted tax-exempt status regardless. They just wouldn’t have been able to partner with the government to do humanitarian projects. But why not give the benefit of the doubt instead of accusing with a mote in your eye? The testimonies said by those who were there had an unforgettable spiritual experience.
We have to remember that the Bride is getting ready for the Bridegroom. She is not ready yet. She being the Church.
That urban legend was put to rest over 20 years ago. There are still tax exempt religious organization today that forbid certain ethnic groups membership.
Nice video... I'm not LDS myself, however I lived in IL for a while as a kid and we had our Cub Scout Pack meetings at the local temple. We had some LDS neighbors, so I've always tried to know a lot about your faith for a "gentile" (not sure if you still use that nickname, but The Great Brain series sizzled it into my mind forever as a thing).
This video did a great job of explaining why the stance (no black priesthoods) was made, and why it evolved over time.
I appreciate the factual nature in which this video was presented.
I would like to ask that you please not ask or encourage people to ask African-American/Black members of the Church about their feelings or thoughts on this topic. As a Black member of this church, the way you are treated by so many members as “other” is already so present and constant. To have to take on the emotional burden and work for white members (or other non-BIPOC members) is unfair and unnecessary. There are many articles that have been written by black members on this topic and the work to find, read, and ponder on those thoughts can be done and should be done by those seeking that information.
This request makes complete sense to me. I deeply respect and admire black members of the church. To be a black member of the church (considering the ban [and all the confusion surrounding it] discussed here) is almost inviting hardship on top of hardship. To take that challenge on because of a spiritual testimony, I think is as noble and admirable as it gets!
I can appreciate your concern to be sensitive to Black members of the church, but I watched this back after reading your comment and he specifically said to seek out those resources and talk to Black Latter-day Saints friends and family. He didn’t say go talk to a random person in Sunday school. I can understand that would be burdensome and annoying. I see this “do your own work” request repeated on about every race related topic I come across. I would hope anyone who has Black friends and family members have done a lot of work on their own to better understand racial issues. Those reading your comment at the very least have sought out and watched a 20 mins video on this issue. They’re doing the work. This call out tends to make white people walk on eggshells around black people. It doesn’t encourage them to become better educated. If you don’t want to talk about it, just say so. If you feel so inclined, point them in the right direction.
Marvin Perkins is one people should take a look at. His solid stuff shows deeper evidence that the Book of Mormon uses Hebraic elements, which is further evidence of its authenticity being from God.
Love it a lot, even if in my country we hadn't that kind of concerns, some of our people still think of it. Love your words that God allows things happen, but His is not exactly excited about it.
Wow I love this so much. I think it’s so meaningful that the principles of God are so consistent. It seems as though God was waiting for the leaders to “study [the question] out in their minds,” as He directs us to do, as well. In my experience, He doesn’t just tell us right off the bat whether we should marry Jill or Julie or Jim or Joe. We have to use our intellect and come to a decision ourselves, then pray and ask if that’s the right decision.
I’ve personally experienced this. I’ve never had any doubt in my faith in God. But a few years ago, I felt like my life wasn’t progressing as it should be, and I wasn’t as connected with God as I once was. So I started looking into other churches. I quickly realized that Judaism and Islam was not for me, because Jesus Christ was more than just a mere prophet. While Catholicism has many truths and I know some amazing Catholics, some supposed declarations from God were less than appealing. Protestantism had an opposite problem-there was no church-wide revelation, and I didn’t believe that God would permanently stop communication to a central authority and leave everything open to interpretation, especially as life has become increasingly complex. Finally I decided that maybe I’d known all along, and so I prayed for an answer: is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints the true church? Since that day, I feel like God’s been showing me that yes, this church is true.
You have to study it out in your minds, then pray and ask what’s true!
Abby C don't you think or consider that other sincere people of other faiths come to the same conclusion as you have. Many find some of the latter day saint declarations from God not appealing.
One such man was Oliver Cowdrey the first ever latter day saint to be baptised who did not appreciate what Joe Smith was doing with fanny Alger
@@Cyrusmagi we all just have to do what we feel is best.
I'm actually from Islam, looking into Mormonism, but I just can't believe Jesus to be anything more than a prophet. I guess we have opposite understandings lol.
@@asevis1425 how? He claimed He was the Son of God, so the way I see it, He’s either a lunatic or the real deal. I’ve never understood that. Can you teach me?
@@michiganabigail I'm sure if you looked at Judaism, since Jesus himself was Jewish, and the way they spoke, you'd understand Jesus wasn't the only son of God. Many other prophets were given the same title. It's only meant as a title of honour, not to be taken literally. Same for the word lord.
Great Job!
Well done.
Extremely well done. It is still hard to understand how God allowed this practice to continue for so long, but perhaps this just indicates how stubborn we humans can be.
My new favourite channel
I especially liked the editing on this video
SOOOO good. Thank you.
Great channel and video !! Thnx for sharing ! Also, Was wondering what is Kwaku doing now ,former host on your show here ?
He left years ago and is now with the Midnight Mormons channel.
@@brettmajeske3525 thank you for the update ! Well appreciated !
Welld done, David!
Fantastic video and presentation of such a difficult and relevant question. Well done!
Thank you! I thought this was an excellent presentation on this subject that has troubled me for 50 years. I can't wait to watch the full story revealed in the next life. Biggest bowl of popcorn in heaven. Lots of incedents and accounts to watch original footage of (i hope) :) I really want to see the Red Sea part and many things. This policy and its whole story is another one of many I hope to learn about.
Falability does not give us license to look down on leaders - true. But it also makes it clear that looking up to them is also a mistake. But don't the current church leaders (and anyone with power quite frankly) expect us to look up to them as if they are superior?
The leaders teach that even thinking of leaders flaws and mistakes is a sin… it’s very problematic doctrine
No
@@ineedoff1 Are you saying top church leaders don't expect members to see them as superior?
Great video!!! Many well thought out points! I love that we can look back and see the Lord’s hand making good from our human mistakes. I’ve thought that this could have been a protection for our black brothers during times of civil rights issues in the states. Can you imagine if black men had knocked on the door of a white family and told them they needed to repent?! I’m really happy that this has been changed for the better!
David. I love your channel and love your videos. So helpful. Thank you
David, I really appreciated the quote from Joseph Fielding Smith. Like you, I feel the Priesthood Ban was a mistake made many years ago that simply perpetuated. But I have struggled to reconcile it as a mistake when you see quotes that the Lord will not allow His prophets to lead the church astray. The Joseph Fielding Smith quote suggests that even prophets' words need to line up with revelation, or we should reject it. Thank you!
You should read the talk by Wilford Woodruff from which the quote is taken. Many people use it out of context. That talk, along with the ones immediately preceding it and the one following were about three topics. How revelation becomes scripture, how the revelation can change past practice and policy, and lastly the process by which the President of the Church can be removed from office.
The quote is not claiming that Prophets are incapable of error, but that if a Prophet falls into error the Quorum of the Twelve and Presiding Bishopric will remove them.
The specific context of the Joseph Fielding quote matters too, at the time it was made JFS would not be President of the Church for another 20 years. He made a living writing a column for the Church News, "Answers to Gospel Questions". The job was completely unrelated to his position as an Apostle, and he wanted his readers to understand that when Apostles or other General Authorities publishes their personal opinions, they are just that.
Many Apostles of the time depended on writing books to make a living and provide for their families. Books like "Doctrines of Salvation", "Mormon Doctrine", "Miracle of Forgiveness" were not published by the Church and were not used as manuals for classes. There were just opinions they shared to help others with their insights.
Doctrine, as a conference talk from a few years explained, is taught frequently, consistently, by the unified voice of the Brethren, not in obscure non official publications.
Brigham Young never made an official policy statement/ proclamation creating the priesthood restriction, he just refused to authorize any ordinations. Back then the Prophet approved all ordinations to the Melchizedek Priesthood. Records indicate that some local Bishops approved Aaronic ordinations of Blacks up until the 1900s. The first proclamation establishing the Priesthood Ban was not made until 1908. The statement did not claim any rationality beyond the assumption of revelation on the part of past Prophets, an assumption that turned out not to be accurate.
I agree with you. Although nearly every member now would call it heresy to even suggest that a prophet could do "anything" at all wrong. People put them on a pedestal as if they are God.
@@brettmajeske3525Mormon Doctrine, of which I have a copy, was practically revered as scripture for decades. If I have read right, it was sanctioned by the church. However, now we back peddle and say McConkie was wrong.
@@joncharlotteschoen "Mormon Doctrine was never sanctioned by the Church, no matter how beloved it was by some of the members. It motivated Henry Eyring to write "Faith of a Scientist" as a rebuttal. Hugh B Brown publicly complained about it. Spencer W Kimball tried to talk McConkie to stop publishing it.
It was on the list of books banned by the MTC by at least 1989, and likely much earlier. When I was a missionary we were told to mail home any book not on the approved list, and then they specifically highlighted "Mormon Doctrine" and "Miracle of Forgiveness" as two books missionaries should not read.
I do not know why you would think it was approved, it was not published or copyrighted by the Church so there was little for them to approve or not approve.
Maybe you are misunderstanding the change from the first to second editions. Pres McKay was so unhappy with the first edition, McConkie was told he need to revise it or be released from his calling as a Sunday School superintendent. Then Elder Kimball suggested the whole book be scrapped, but in the end highlighted sections that needed to be removed in order for McConkie to keep his calling.
Insisting on removing the most problematic portions is not the same as approving.
Maybe instead of asking why weren't blacks in the south allowed to ride in the front of the bus until the 1960s maybe the real question we should be asking is why did everybody else have to wait until buses were invented in the 1890s to ride the bus at all? -Brad Wilcox probably
I do not think Brad's opinions are shared by the crew at Saints Unscripted.
@@brettmajeske3525 maybe but he still is an influential Mormon and byu professor who said some of the most idiotic things concerning the ban that I’ve heard in a while. Also it’s funny to watch Mormons and the lds church go into damage control over the whole issue.
@@dukeofsahib4967 I disagree with much of what he said. Even the stuff I do agree with I think were presented with a condescending attitude. But he was still just offering his own opinions because that is not how current teaching materials present that information.
🤣
@@dukeofsahib4967 Damage control is a huge issue, not just within the church. Planned Parenthood and Margaret Sanger is a pretty big one too. Everyone is trying to cover up their eugenics agenda.
Thank you!
Wonderful content!
Love your channel! ☀️💕
How do you reconcile what is said at the 18:00 min Mark with What Jesus said about "In heaven they are neither married or given in marriage" or where he says "I dwell not in temples built with hands" ?
That was wonderful
verry good.
We are in a time of presentism... the Church has matured into the 21st century and is more confident in owning its past. Sadly, most commentators who want to denegrate our religion have only the past to look to. Just imagine what was going on behind and in the scenes in Peter's time at the council of Jerusalem? Wouldn't you have liked to have been a fly on the wall when Paul had his dust-ups with his companions to the extent that they went their separate ways? We are a very different Church than the one I joined in 1976 and I have been comfortable with every change in process that has been sustained by a doctrinal constancy. This is one of those inconsistencies where | agree with David: we messed this one up. However, we put it right. That was then. This is now.
EXCELLENT!!!!
This is an extraordinary presentation. It is apparent that you prayed, and Heavenly Father guided you.
Since the thought came to me, I've always felt that the church and its people are like a Rubik's Cube. With a proper method of getting every color to the right place, it doesn't look like it's solved until it's nearly solved; but, to properly solve it, the pieces need to get moved away from where they will end up. We can think: "if it was where it is supposed to end up, why did it need to get moved?"
All of the pieces have to work together to have each of them end up in the right place. Things like the priesthood ban and polygamy being temporary things (though those two were due to different circumstances), I believe they were permitted to happen because with them there, pieces of the Church were put in place that couldn't have been placed where they need to be these things weren't there.
Those brethren who made racist comments and allowed racist things to happen have offered us tremendous spiritual insight and taught us great things over the course of their time in a position of influence. Without their leadership and constructive spiritual teaching, it's hard for me to imagine the church being as spiritually informed as it is now.
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race?. If the white man who belongs to the CHOSEN SEED mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty under the law of God is DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO". - Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses vol.10. pg 110).
Very well done. Thank you
Hey Saints Unscripted. I really enjoy your videos. I was wondering if you might do a video talking about world views and how different world views and beliefs play into God's plan of Salvation and why. Maybe talk about why we need to choose for ourselves and why we do not have all the answers, why we are all fallible and fallibility can be seen in all things in this life and why we need to walk by faith. I think the one commonality of the whole Human Race is that we don't have all the answers even though we are all, well maybe not all, seeking for truth. Most people are actually just trying to survive their circumstances in life. I think this commonality on fallibility can unite everyone throughout the world. Not sure if I make sense but it is great to know that we are all united with some common perspective. Oh and perhaps talk about how God actually does love everyone no matter what your religion or what you believe and how the plan of salvation makes complete sense with that idea. Thanks so much.
We came to a cliff with Heavenly Father. We looked down and He said, “The only way forward is to fall. You will parachute down this cliff and we will give you further instructions.” 1/3 of His children said “Heck no, I am not doing that. It is too scary and I don’t want to get hurt. I’d rather stay here and die.” As we went forward and down, we got hurt. And then there is a LONG journey up to the top of the next cliff where the City of Zion is. At the bottom of the cliff where we fell and got hurt, we met Jesus. He is our guide and shows us the places to climb up to reach the top of the next cliff where the City of Zion (Celestial Kingdom is). We have to follow each step of the way, exactly as the Savior tells us to reach it. It is a hard climb and sometimes our arms cannot take it or hold on. We are weak. We slip, we fall. But Jesus is right there helping us if we reach to Him. Some fell forward only to decide just as the 1/3 who didn’t fall forward down the cliff to just stay here at the bottom and perish. But to those who see the climb and don’t stop, they can choose to keep going and have the faith to overcome this mountain we had to climb to progress on our journey. Eve was the first one to make the choice, though she was beguiled into it. Satan told her that God didn’t love her and did not want her to know what He knew. So she went forth to obtain knowledge, even knowing the consequences that lay ahead. Adam had to fall to save Eve, for only through their seed would be born a Savior to fix it. We learned about love through what we suffer here. And we learn about diligence and perseverance by what we suffer here too. All of these lessons is the way forward, progressing us into the cliff that is before the city of Zion, the Celestial kingdom. We have it in our grasp if we obey and follow, even if it takes a while to get it right. ❤️🙏🏽🌷
and the threats from the IRS, was just a coincidence i presume. What actually kicked this whole thing off was when a black boyscout who was suppose to be a scout leader was passed over cause he didnt have a ny priesthood. his parents sued, the IRS threatened, than wala, The revelation came down.
There were no threats from the IRS, that is just an urban legend. FAIR filed freedom of information requests and examined documents in the Jimmy Carter library. No record indicates anyone in the IRS or Carter administration cared. And if they did, why would they not go after groups like the KKK, which are still non-profit even today?
@@brettmajeske3525 i was there. i had a son in scouts. a black scout was supposed to be elevated and wasnt because he was black. its possible the IRS, hadnt acted yet, but there was much public scrutiny into church practices and the justice dept was definetly looking into the matter.
@@jamesmorphe8003 I am not claiming that racism does not exist. I am sorry about what you experienced. The rumor about the Justice Department or IRS investigating the Church is just not true. Both are required by law to answer freedom of information requests. Nether the IRS nor Justice had open investigations in 1978. The closest was an investigation into BYU in 1968, but that was resolved in BYU's favor within a year.
Just for information purposes the first African-American student at BYU joined in the 1930s. By 1970 there were African-American faculty. Those who had reported BYU were not aware of that fact.
In the 1970s the Church did not have a policy preventing Scouts from advancing. That doesn't mean that individuals did not justify their own racism. In 1978 I was a Church sponsored Cub Scout pack. One of the adults leaders was African-American, and her children were involved in Scouting.
There were not only African-American Primary, Relief Society, and Sunday School teachers, but Presidents. There were still Wards who would not extend any callings, but such was not the policy of the Church as defined by the Handbook.
@@andreatimmers1720 I am sorry, I do not understand your comment.
Thank you so much for this well presented piece of the dark side of our past.
I agree with you David. We are all falliable. Scripture is fallible, prophets are fallible and everyone is fallible. But there is still truth in scripture, science, prophets and the thoughts of man. We do not have all the answers in this life but we are here to walk by faith, follow the example of Jesus Christ and search for truth.
@@getharryonsax So is the Bible infallible then? And if no, who has the infallible interpretation of it?
@@getharryonsax I really have no idea what you are saying. Are you saying the prophets in the Bible are infallible?
@@getharryonsax should we not read the Bible because of the mistakes the Biblical prophets made?
@@getharryonsax ok. Fair enough. I am forcusing on the prophet and apostles of today. They seem pretty Christlike to me. More so than other preachers out there (like John MacArthur who appears very sarcastc, hateful, arrogant). When I listen to General Conference today, I feel the love, compassion and humility of those speaking. Just sharing my opinion. Perhaps others think differently.
@@getharryonsax That is not the requirement. Sustaining does not require agreement with their opinions. You are misrepresenting the Temple Recommend questions.
You're such a genius...
Thank You, Thank You Thank You...I was approached earlier today 2/6/24 by 2 members of the LDS community in Spanish Harlem who I guess were recruiting and or "Inviting" folks to their services either at the 86thstreet church or the 128th street church in Harlem...Needless to say that they looked way out of place and stood out like a bright canlle in a pitch black room, but as usual they were pleseant and respectful as is their usual demeanor....I listened to their "pitch" and respectfully declined...but I was left with an agonizing thought that they were white and that I wondered why there weren't more people of color in the LDS community....I think you have gone above and beyond in breaking down the origins and possible basis for this and have dispelled any prejudices and suspicions/myths I may have developed on my own....I found your take on it fair, well researched and balanced...I will not be running to the LDS doors seeking adnitance, however it was refershing to hear your point of view and instead of the polished and often rehearsed razzel dazzell soliloquy of those 2 young men....Much appreciated.
I came across a really good question about this subject when I was reading Jeremy Runnel's response to Jim Bennett's CES Letter reply. He framed his question something like this. When Joseph was refusing to practice polygamy as well as introduce the practice to other apostles, God eventually sent an angel with a drawn sword to immensely pressure Joseph to implement polygamy. Why is it that God was willing to intervene and ensure polygamy was introduced to the church but then just stood by and allowed the race restrictions to be implemented and last for over a century?
The difference between the priesthood ban and polygamy was that the opportunity for blacks to obtain the priesthood were and are open to them even after death, making the mistake very much fixable meaning that God could give us time to fix our mistake. Polygamy on the other hand had to happen at a specific time in which there was no room for error. If polygamy wasn’t implemented to make the church stronger in numbers and faith at the time that it was, then, at the time, newer U.S. laws would’ve have made it impossible for polygamy to take place. This channel has some great videos on the topic of polygamy and why it took place. I hope that whole thing isn’t too confusing and I hope that answers your question.
@@elipayne5343 I think that's a good answer, thanks!
While a commonly believed story, there is no actual evidence that Joseph believed he had been visited by an Angel with a drwn sword. The first account claiming the angel had a drwn sword was made about 20 years after the Prophet's death. The earlier accounts only mention he was visited three times. The sword. sometimes drawn, sometimes burning, could very likely be subconscious embellishments in later memories during a time of intense ridicule.
@@brettmajeske3525 Fair enough
I personally feel that Brigham Young may have had to do this to protect the church at the time from the racist secret combinations in our governments and mobs that may have risen up against the Church at the time.
The Lord has asked the prophets to do things that didn’t make sense at times. It is always for a purpose. Abrahamic tests.
Hey David, thank you for this video, everything is explained very well, helps me feel a little better about it and I’ll share it with those who have those questions 🙏🏻
Watch Marvin Perkins “race and the priesthood”. It answers even more questions. 🙏🏽
In Ezra 2 and Jasher 73:30-37, it shows this ban was throughout history!
Ezra 2:62-63 These men searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean. 63 The governor ordered them not to eat the most holy things until there was a priest to consult the Urim and Thummim.
Once God came down and atoned with his own blood, he then made all people clean and worthy to recieve the gospel and enter in the straight and narrow gate - see Acts 10:9-16.
Samuel the Black Lamanite Prophet told the Nephites that Jesus Christ would be born in five years and that he would save all those who believed in him. For more info read Helaman 14:2
And
3 Nephi 23:9 Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?
10 And his disciples answered him and said: Yea, Lord, Samuel did prophesy according to thy words, and they were all fulfilled.
11 And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have not written this thing, that many saints did arise and appear unto many and did minister unto them?
12 And it came to pass that Nephi remembered that this thing had not been written.
13 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written; therefore it was written according as he commanded.
So what about unanimity among the brethren when it came to the initial ban in the first place? There was no unanimity there. So by that same metric, the ban should never have been deemed an official act of the church or divine decree right?
Brigham likely did that to protect the saints from government persecution. To be honest. He didn’t appear racist from his first statement about Negros. Our corrupt government probably wanted and was looking for public statements that proved Utah would not get in the way of their goals. The church had suffered so much. It could have been that Brigham was prejudiced like Jonah was to Nineveh, but… the evidence doesn’t match up well. Manifest destiny doctrines from evangelical preachers were common in his day. Even to this day, many blacks believe that the mark of Cain is dark skin-for they use that to prove Jesus is black, as that he comes from Tamar. But “skins of blackness” is a Hebrew Metaphor referring to mourning and not having the Holy Spirit from breaking the covenant. And there is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that black skin was the mark of Cain ESPECIALLY if a person knows and understands Hebraic metaphor. So the Canaanites were not merely dark skinned, they were just “sinful” and thus “mournful”. In the words of Mormon, “Despair cometh because of iniquity.”
The Lord loves us and dark skin has nothing to with His judgements. If we are given a judgement of God, it is because he has tested us and proven that we are lacking in an area of life. So he allows suffering to take place so we can learn and do better in any given area we lack. The whole purpose being improvement and progression (have one eternal round) and that is the whole story of the priesthood ban itself.
It wasn't official, that is what made a practice or tradition. All MP ordination and temple reccomends needed to be signed by the Prophet, so he could just refuse without needing official sanction.
The question logically becomes if the leaders were mistaken on race and priesthood, how do we know they're not mistaken on women and priesthood, lgbtq issues, tithing requirements, etc.
Well as Joseph fielding smith said, if anything that he said contradicts revelation and scripture to throw it out. The question then is: do those things contradict revelation?
Good point. Although scripture like Moses 7:8 and Abraham 1:26 were considered as support for the ban.
The difference is that those scriptures don’t say that God declared that no African can hold the priesthood neither then nor in the future. It’s a description of what happened, but not why or how, or even if it’s what should have happened. There’s far more scriptural justification for denying the priesthood to the descendants of the Lamanites, but no similar ban was ever placed on the Indians.
Contrarily, non-traditional sex is clearly denounced in the Bible. The laws of tithing and consecration are clearly laid out in the Doctrine and Covenants, same goes for rules on who is to receive priesthood ordination.
@@KnuttyEntertainment I love your comments.
Excellent point. I think they are mistaken on some of those issues. The scriptural basis for their positions are not nearly as strong as they appear on the outset. The question then becomes “What does it mean to sustain a prophet?” I think we can sustain by praying for them to seek further light and knowledge from the Lord. We can sustain by pointing out what Christ taught and what principles are being violated by those teachings. And we can recognize the difference between general authority and personal revelation. It is deeply uncomfortable when they do not line up neatly, but I think wrestling with the Lord is always worth it.
I've never been able to find an answer to this question.... Was the ban against "all" non white men? Hispanic, Asian, etc? And what about temple recommends for, say, woman who were asian, black, etc?
Or was the ban exclusively against black men?
And is there any truth to "we opened up the priesthood because we wanted to built temples in South America" and "there was governmental/societal pressure" at that time? I was only 7 in 1978 and not yet a member.
The restriction was only for those of black African heritage. South Pacific Islanders, Indians (from India), Native Americans, Asians, and all other people of color were given the Priesthood, even if their skin was darker than most African-Americans.
@@brettmajeske3525 Hmm, well that really makes no sense. Dang.
@@joncharlotteschoen The restriction was never about skin color, but a misunderstanding of the concept of race and ancestry. Like most Americans of his time, Brigham Young thought that black Africans were the descendants of Ham, whose wife was a descendant of Cain. So in his mind and of the LDS leaders of the 19th century the restriction was about the curse of Cain/Ham, not actual skin color. A common expression, falsely attributed to Brigham Young, was that no one with one drop of African blood should hold the priesthood, no matter how fair their skin.
Such was the systematic racism of the day. 20th century leaders who did not believe that Ham was the father of all Africans had to come up with different justifications, but it was always centered on ancestry not skin pigment.
Is there no new revelation given as guidance on how we can help those who have passed away in the time when the practice was still being done?
Well ever since 78, the same proxy ordinations performed for others are being performed for Black ancestors. What new revelation do you think is needed?
@@brettmajeske3525 not sure really what specific revelation. They couldnt work on things to get certain blessings. But yes, we can only do so much unless new revelation guides or assures us that we have done enough.
@@geopadilla1455 I still do not understand what you are talking about. You are aware that proxy ordinations have been performed for all the LDS of color who were restricted in life?