Did Joseph Smith use polygamy just to get with women? Ep. 32
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2019
- In this episode, Dave talks about one of the most controversial subjects in the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (oftentimes mistakenly referred to as the “Mormon” Church): Polygamy. Specifically, Joseph Smith’s polygamy. Why did Joseph Smith teach plural marriage? Why were some of his wives already married to other men? Why was one of them 14 years old? Watch this episode to learn more and check out the resources below for more info!
More info on this subject from our website: saintsunscripted.com/faith-an...
Pretty much anything you could want to know can be found here: josephsmithspolygamy.org
More answer to questions about polygamy: bit.ly/2VTcQ9e
From the Church’s official website: bit.ly/1wkQDum
For more in-depth research, check out these books by Brian and Laura Hales: amzn.to/30AbpLt
amzn.to/2HwPQnz
amzn.to/2wf3PrC
amzn.to/2JVLp7f
Heber and Vilate Kimball's story: bit.ly/2HYpWcw
Is this segment scripted? Yes! Here’s why: bit.ly/2Gf3pIS
Watch more Faith and Beliefs videos: bit.ly/2BlOxEB
Chat with Dave on Facebook: bit.ly/2QQ0HKR
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Just so everyone is aware, we will have a 45-minute video about polygamy coming out next week. 10 minutes was not enough time to discuss this topic. So be on the lookout for that coming out next week!👍
You explained this difficult topic perfectly. 10 minutes was plenty though--45 minutes would be like torture.
Saints Unscripted so excited !
Was there ever a release of the 45 minute video? I would be genuinely more curious as to how the Church of LDS dealt with the Apostasy in their own religion post-1890 than justification for the head prophet.
czcams.com/video/eITMOB2pNYI/video.html
@@larryhawkes1347 Good boy delivers... x'D
I’m not LDS but I really don’t know why they give you guys such a hard time about this. Every history of peoples worldwide has unsavory history.
Generally attacks on polygamy are just attacks on low hanging fruit. There are many more substantial issues with Mormonism that demand our attention then polygamy.
That being said, the issue isn't so much about polygamy but rather the character of the early church and its claims to be led by a prophet of high character.
1)Polygamy was initially required by J.Smith in order to make it into the celestial kingdom... i.e. to become gods.
2)Later the church just upped and ended the practice and now you can even be excommunicated for it. Just like it changed it doctrine on numerous issues such as the trinity and blacks.
3)J.Smith chose to engage in polygamy without the knowledge of his wife. He had been married to something like 20 woman before Emma found out. After being caught he "revealed" the "Sarah rule" which means that the first wife can choose to say no to another marriage.
4)Out of the 30-40 wives that J.Smith had, about 12 of them were already married to other men which means he was practicing polygamy here but polyandry.
5)J.Smith sent out missionaries to foreign countries who looked for vulnerable young poor girls and brought them back to the states where they would be divvied up amongst the men of the presidency.
6)J.Smith outright lied about his polygamy until he was outed.
The issue of polygamy therefore, is more then just a renewal of ancient practices, but something that goes as deep as possible sex trafficking.
Boy howdy I can't wait for the comments section on this one.
*grabs extra large tub of popcorn*
Same! The truth shall be revealed, friend. Turn from the false visitation (Galatians 1: 8) and Joseph, and find true grace in Christ. I enjoyed this video (as I do most), but it is sufficiently lacking in LDS scholarship.
I'll thrown in some red vines with that popcorn!
STEPHEN SMOOT!
Man's endless attempt to condone....or even justify sin.
Enjoy your popcorn
Ryan Adams Sin is an act against the will of God. This was not sin
He says “if you’re Christian, polygamy happened” it’s not just Christianity it’s been in every religion...
It was actually practiced in the Jewish cultural historical context. Just as in many organized cultures. Among other things, it provided protection from outside forces and increased procreation. It’s still very clearly caused division, distress, and even descendants of warring peoples. Divine revelation continued and was fulfilled in Christ. Christians didn’t support polygamy. They are called to the sacrament of marriage between one man and one woman.
@@robertortiz-wilson1588 and indeed in the Bible it generally does not work out well. That said it can increase the birth rate following a war or some other event that cut the male population. Was there a gender imbalance among the early Latter Day Saints?
I've been a member of the church for decades, and some of this information about Joseph Smith is completely new to me. My experience in the church is to have patience and wait on answers. So glad that other things didn't floor me so badly that I gave up on the church. Now I ask God for understanding and let the Holy Spirit teach me.
I agree with XYU. It is most important that we listen to and follow the Holy Spirit first. We are also asked to search out answers in the scriptures as well. You will find that no other church teaches the fulness of the gospel and God's plan of salvation more accurately and fully than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. No other church fits the description of Christ's church as recorded in the Bible more closely either.
Yes, Joseph Smith made mistakes, though not as grievous mistakes as anit-mormons poor research would suggest. The fact that he was immature and made mistakes and yet the church still grew is very strong evidence that God was in control, not Joseph Smith. But the evidence does show that Joseph Smith definitely grew into his role as the prophet of the restoration.
If you think about king David, in the bible. He committed adultery, then murder as a prophet. He fell from his status as prophet. Does that mean the church fell apart? no. Joseph was never guilty of such immorality or depravity and it was never his church, it is Christ's and He built it.
Just remember, the work is God's, not the prophets. Prophets are called because they are a tool in the Lord's hands. This doesn't change who they are, their biases, their human nature. But if they allow the Lord to work through them and seek to be like Christ, like any person, they will gradually become less of a "natural man" and will grow from "grace to grace."
That was a beautiful and majestical answer, i always appreciate the sincere words of faith from a humble disciple of God and his curch.
@XYU what do you believe?
@XYU Cool, was it like an ah ha! Moment, this feels right?
@XYU I like your approach, I what taught to study things out and it should make sense in my mind and heart. Prayer helps me too. Many LDS issues I've had to pray about, also about the Bible for things like Noah's Ark...that's my recent deliema and I actually am getting my answer from an LDS source. Before I searched I believed the author of Genesis was telling the story from what he knew the world was so when he said the entire earth he ment only what he knew of. So from the LDS site they mention the hebrew word used for earth is "eretz" which means earth or land. So I believe more in a flooding of a certain land and not the globe. There's just too much evidence that the entire world was not flooded.
that Brigham Young quote had my goth senses a-tinglin
I love that you guys are doing a lot of Book of Mormon and Jospeh smith videos :) such a taboo subject and I love your bravery, courage, and fearlessness of tackling such subjects :) keep up the good work :):) we pray for people like you guys out there !
It’s brave and fearless to talk about the founder of your religion? :/ That’s not a good sign.
@XYU You mean poorly researched topics based on their biases. I have read a lot of those, and yet when you refute with other evidence they just claim you are false. Their research would fail under real scrutiny, as it has many a times.
@@monocuco818 you are misguided
@XYU There are also many things in the Book of Mormon that people cannot explain, some of these passages actually match the Bible and other ancient texts that Joseph did not have access to.
You would have to look at each individual "error" to figure out what may have happened.
Like the one in 2 Nephi 19:1, where it contains 3 words that are not found in the original passage in Isaiah 9:1 and are found in both the KJV as well as the "translation" of the Book of Mormon. The 3 words are italicized so we know which words are filled in in the KJV.
It is not unreasonable for Joseph Smith to translate it, realize it doesn't make sense because it seems to be missing 3 words and compare them to the KJV that he had and fill in those 3 words, or fill in the same words because it makes more sense.
Either way it doesn't change the meaning of the scripture.
Furthermore, after reading the passages that he had just written, he would have read the Bible to compare and may have found the KJV to be clearer and added the italicized words in to the Book of Mormon.
Either way, they still can't figure out how Joseph Smith got the record so accurate.
You know they just discovered massive cities in South America complete with roadways, where millions of native americans would have lived. Exactly like the Book of Mormon describes.
Everyone said that this was another evidence that the Book of Mormon was false, but now they have found these cities as described in the Book of Mormon.
@@beckymcdonald9529 You don't know. The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is more clear and more Christlike than any other in the world. It is more full, it is more complete and has even more knowledge of our God and our Savior and His Atonement.
“: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.” -Jacob 2:27
Keep reading, Jacob explains that polygamy is allowed in certain circumstances.
Remember the rest of the quote v30. Only if commanded by the Lord.
Plss read Verse 30 . Why do Abraham , Jacob have multiple wives? again verse 30 might help
@@joscelynpease6656but why was Solomon punished for practicing polygamy. 1 Kings in the bible. God gave Solomon's kingdom to his servant.
That is one of the best short videos I have ever listen to on this topic.
New subscriber and not LDS, but I have some friends who are - these are cool, clever and informative videos that will prevent me from asking my friends stupid, ignorant questions. I'm an American history nut and obviously Mormon history and westward expansion are quite intertwined. Thanks for the engaging content!
Yes history is history and it did happen… the difference is that GOD never commanded polygamy in the Bible. Never
Don’t use this as information. He’s a lying apologist. Which is what the Mormon church is all about
@@meganjarman5233true.
I would like to thank you for your information. I myself also think polygamy is very unfair to women. I'm a LDS women who in the last year has had a experience with my 37yr old daughter she contacted me very upset about polygamy and other things. I told her Heavenly father loves us very much. He is so wise and sees the bigger picture. In time we will know why he had these men practice polygamy. I plan on sharing this video with her. So thank you again.
Most (if not all) critics think that the men practiced polygamy because they wanted extra women.
Most of the critics are men, hence, we know how men think. We aren't complicated creatures. So when we see a man lying to his wife while he has literally dozens of women secretly, we see clearly that his motive wasn't exactly pure
What motive do you think God had for making sure that the leaders got so many more women than the lower down brothers? Why did God want the leaders to have so much pleasure while making the women suffer so much pain?
Remember, if it isn't love, it isn't God commanding it
This is why critics are shocked at Joseph Smith.
Your 37yr old daughter sees what all other men see.
Never even once has any prophet in the Bible lied to his wife about having other men's wives secretly. Every time it has been done in modern history it's been by false prophets.
So we see Joseph Smith doing this and we see we have 2 options. Either God suddenly started telling his true prophet to act like a false prophet. Or Joseph was simply in the category he appears to be in, based on his actions.
He disowned the action both publicly and privately. He even sent away young wives when Emma told him to. These are not the actions of a man who valued the young women he used for his own sexual pleasure. These are like Warren Jeffs, bit with more lying.
Even the church's apologetics arm "F.A.I.R." mention that "Oliver Cowdery perceived the relationship between Joseph and Fanny as a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair"" (I would link it but CZcams may delete my comment if I did. Please Google it to check if you don't trust me)
No amount of burning in the bosom will make a rational person accept his actions as godly. He used women like worthless tissues and threw them away whenever it suited him.
I love and respect you. It's not your fault for what he did. Joseph Smith was a bad man
www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_some_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_associates_believe_that_he_had_an_affair_with_Fanny_Alger%3F
@@truth.speaker God's "motive" for only allowing certain men to practice polygamy instead of everyone, is so that women were not abused and taken advantage of by unrighteousness men.
There is zero evidence that Joseph Smith had sexual conduct with any of the other women. If he was such an adulterous man where are all the illegitimate children?
If it isn't love it isn't God commanding it? Really? Ok. Old Testament style: 1 Samuel 15 - basically, "Go and kill all those people (man, woman, child and beast) living in that city".
Emma's whole reaction to polygamy makes her account rather biased. She claimed in her deathbed that Joseph never had any other wives despite evidence to the contrary and her own previous comments. At various times she said it was a commandment from God given to Joseph at other times she denied any knowledge of it. It was obviously not a commandment she liked or wanted her husband to obey. I believe Emma's account for a lot of things but polygamy is not one of them. She clearly had a dislike for the commandment and her changing opinion on it does not make her the most reliable source.
Using the quote from Oliver Cowdery on polygamy is a super lazy ex-mo thing to do. He clearly had know knowledge of what was going on, only that Joseph had married another woman. That was the extent of his knowledge. The quote is just his personal feelings about polygamy with no knowledge of what was actually going on.
Joseph Smith was a bad man? A bad man who wrote a book about Jesus Christ that has convinced millions to follow Christ and try to be like him? A man who received over a hundred recorded revelations from God? A man who inspired tens of thousands to travel to the USA and trek miles across the country because they read a book he wrote that made them "feel good"? A man who taught others to follow Christ? Yes he seems very bad. And all of this anger towards him because some people with unsubstantiated stories told some convincing lies about him? Yes sure let's throw everything else out he did and focus purely on some lies and rumours people spread about him. Top quality stuff 👌
@@Samuel-et7bd Samuel, to claim that Joseph 'brought people to Christ' is the same claim made by those who practice priestcraft. We can't pretend that everyone who claims to encourage discipleship is working for God, can we? Many false teachers have sheep's clothing, but inside they are ravenous wolves (Matthew 7)
I mean no offense by saying this, but Samuel, you do not understand this subject. Please continue researching. You need to understand. For example, in the gospel topics essay the church writes "Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings."
If you think he wasn't banging at least some of them, you need to read what the church has clearly said. He had sex with multiple women behind Emma's back. This is just truth. He lied to Emma. This is a fact. He claimed it was cool because God told him to (just like many other false prophets claim), but check the dates. Was Fanny Alger BEFORE he had "authority" to do this? Research, my friend. Research. Find truth. You will see that Joseph was marrying women, commanding letters to be burned and covering up with lies and deceit.
Isn't it odd that Jesus warned us against false prophets and their bad fruits, only for the one true prophet to end up doing exactly the things Jesus warned us about? Strange, eh?
@@Samuel-et7bd "to remove the Lord's name from the lord's church is a great victory for Satan"
True or false?
Does that sentence not remove "the Lord's name" and replace it with the word "Lord"? Funny how even today's "prophet", condemns the church's 150 year old practice, claiming Mormons were secretly giving victories to Satan for decades, yet ends up doing exactly that same thing in the very sentence he "revealed" it in (by calling Jesus by a different title, instead of his name). Clearly this is a "blind guide", Samuel. How truly sad.
I'm not blaming you. But clearly your prophet is condemning himself, the church members, the past prophets, and ironically, in so doing, he condemned himself. How very, very blind
Thanks for the video, I just have a quick question. If God had commanded Abraham and others you mentioned to practice polygamy, where does it say that? I'm seeing that they practiced it, but it had negative effects on their lives, plus there's nothing saying that God had commanded them to practice it, so where are you finding the conclusion that sometimes God allows it and sometimes He doesn't? Thanks!
For heaven sake; If God says you can't do something then you shouldn't do it. If God does not say you can't do something then you can do it if you want to and those who you do it with don't mind. I don't think god would send an angel with a sword to make you do something. I hope Joseph Smith didn't actually say this. If he did I just wouldn't trust him.
When is God recorded saying I can’t do heroin? 🤡
Also, God says in Jacob chapter 2 in the CLEAREST TERMS that polygamy is a sin
David did not claim God commanded the practice. He carefully used the words "allowed" and "permitted"
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I appreciate this simple, honest video. I hope it is appreciated by all who watch it, both members and non members alike. 😊
Wow! How have I missed these? Nice work! We all squirm over this subject, and you just laid it all out there for us, complete with little snippets to keep my ADHD brain engaged. Would that the Church itself could see how much better this is than to proclaim, "thus saith the Lord!" before scampering back to hide and pretend all is well in Zion.
Unfair to women??? I can't imagine how fair it is to a man to be outnumbered and subject to 3 women demanding honey-dos all day.
Why did he marry a mother and her Daughter if it was only to link families? Why did he Marry two women after he sent there husbands on missions? Why did he threaten a 14 year old with damnation of her family.
Because he was a sexually immoral religious impostor..
Because he was a disgusting pos
The answer to the question is YES!!!
The man was a creep and a paedophile.
JS had a full harem of about 36-40 wives if not more, many of whom where under age, seven to be exact.
He also fathered children with some of them.
God sent an angel and threaten him with a flaming sword if he didn’t marry a fourteen year old ? Seriously?
@@paulgregersen3570 can you please post the link? I, too, heard this story without explanation and I've been a church member two years. Thank you.
@@iowaguy6470 If you study Jacobs two polygamists wives Lea and Rachiel you will see a direct type replicated for Joseph Smith. I'll send you links a little later. The entire house of Israel was born through polygamy. Even Jesus Christ himself came through a polygamist family and was called the son of David. Christian's avoid that biblical fact like the plague.
Very well done. Many thanks. When push comes to shove, I always take refuge in my testimony to prevail over anything questionable.
"Polygamy is gross and we totally don't do that anymore." That is the WORST defense of Polygamy ever. Joseph Smith was a polygamist and a "prophet", same with Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F Smith and Heber Grant. Whew. That is a long list of "prophets" doing this totally gross thing that we totally don't do anymore. Heber Grant died in 1945! Mormons like to make Polygamy sound like it was practiced in their distant past, when Society was COMPLETELY different to the Modern Day, and yet, their prophet was a polygamist all the way up to the end of the Second World War.
Practice polygamy before the New Testament, you mean. New Testament states clearly that an elder is to be the husband of ONE wife. Be brave and be fair to divide the facts correctly.
Oriental Orthodox Christian here. You did really well with this video. I was most impressed about your own personal thought or belief on something and making sure to express that’s just you.
I can honestly say I learned more about the Mormon leader and polygamy in this short video then I would have otherwise sought. I am writing this before checking your cites and sources. Nonetheless keep up the good work bro.
-Eritrean-American 🙋🏾♂️
This was so well done, thank you! 👏🏻
Thank you for your comment!!
Yes
About an Angel threatining him with sword, the bible says : 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1.8.
A very balanced and historically correct understanding video. Forgot to mention where Isaiah predicted polygamy in the latterday.
Great video! Thank you
Man, Saints Unscripted you always answer my questions I have about the Church so well good job!
I like your name. Cool Pokémon.
Have you read the Navoo Expositor?
He didn’t mention the lies and the deceit, though.
@@bradensorensen966 they still believe that Jesus is our Savior, I don’t follow the LDS leaders and we should love our neighbor even if we don’t agree on everything if your a man/women of Christ. I’m Catholic though not LDS, just find the different dominations of Christianity interesting
I have one question for you. Why did the church coincidentally continue to practice polygamy until the federal government threatened to destroy the Mormon church?
Ralph Perez Ok I’m not a professional by any means but in the manifesto he says that the government had banned polygamy and he was letting the government know that the church was not permitting it. In fact apparently, the church hadn’t been permitting it to anyone. Polygamy was technically allowed up to then, but people were doing it without permission. Again, this history is complicated and I may not be 100% right but this is what I got from reading it. I hoped that this may have answered your question.
Amazing video really helped me answer some of my questions
Look up Brother Jake, for more testimonials. It'll help you see more pressing questions in a clear light
Interesting video! A couple questions:
1) Why is section 132 still in the D&C? Could it be because there are a few current church officials have had wives that have died and remarried? Will they not have multiple wives (practicing polygamy) when they pass into the next life, and making spiritual children for eternity?
2) Why would God command polygamy as essential for obtaining godhood then change his mind? That is quite a 180-of course, occurring as a revelation from God directly when the LDS were under legal threat from the US government.
Lastly, it is important to note that polygamy was never permitted in the Old Testament. This practice was a perversion from the start due to the sinful heart of man. God instructed Moses that the kings of Israel were to have only one wife: “Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away.” (Deut. 17:17)
You don't search your scriptures properly. I know God the Father can invoke or revoke any Commandment at any time according to his will and pleasure because God makes all the laws and he can say and do whatever he pleases so thats why we are getting changes all the time in the church because its lead by revelation from God through prophets and apostles or the oracles of God. . The reason why we have multiple sealings in the temple is because of the many marriages people take to themselves here in this lifetime after a spouse dies and they remarry again and have children from those marriages during their lifetime, some people may have up to 3-4 or more of these marriages. So that's why we have more than 1 marriage sealing to a wife to these families.
@@germanslice and so currently members of the LDS church CAN and WILL practice polygamy in the afterlife. That is doctrine. Do you disagree?
You are wasting your time arguing with the early church of over 150 years ago.
We are in 2019 now, not in the 1840's.
its allowed when God Commands it. He ordered Abraham to take wives and the same with King David, but the Lord made it clear when King Solomon and King David after taking the concubines God Commanded to take they also went later on and took other additional wives to them that God did NOT COMMAND them to take then that's when they had sinned against God.
Just like also in the book of Ezra and possibly Nemeniah when the people of Israel took strange wives to themselves without the Lord's commanding them to take them they commited sin before God in doing so because they took wives of the Caanites, Egyptians, Hitties, Perizzites, Jebusits, Ammonites, Moabites and the Amorites took all their daughters unto themselves without getting the Lord's Consent, but all the wives that the Lord DID COMMAND David to take to Concubines from his masters house was allowed from God. Its only counted for righteousness to take concubines only when God commands it..
Where things started going all wrong for David is when he killed Uriah the Hittie and took Bathsehba unlawfully to wife against the Lord's Commandment.
You can find this rebuke very clearly from the Lord's own Prophet Nathan:
8. I gave thee thy masters house, thy masters wives into thy bossom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah, and if that had not been too little. i would moreover have given thee such and such things. (2 samuel 12:8)
GOD SPEAKING TO DAVID THROUGH HIS PROPHET
So polygamy was a practiced approved of by God in ancient times for furthering his own righteous purposes. God can do what he likes when the righteous do whatever he Commands..
Otherwise how do you explain why God told Abraham to say to Pharoah saying that she was her sister instead of saying she was his wife? Pharoah wasn't keeping God's laws so god can deal with Pharoah however he likes... God can revoke or invoke his Commandments to further suit his own righteous purposes. So in the case of the polygamy in the early church, it was granted by God under special circumstances before the commandment was revoked in the manifesto to no longer practice it before the world. And if God has moved it instead into the temple where sacred things are to be kept then that is not the world''s business but God's. So I'm not worried about how the sealing of families is going to be handled by God.
@@germanslice yes, and your argumentation is predicated upon God truly speaking to Joseph. Here in lies the problem. Did Christ not already come and declare the purpose and meaning of marriage? Marriage is a beautiful reflection of Christ and the church. One man and one woman, for life. How could 'god' then come and alter the very words spoken by the Messiah?
Because you don't search the scriptures properly and have come to incomplete conclusions.
God the Father along with his Son did speak to Joseph in that grove. But Its not just only Joseph who has seen them both. Stephen also saw them both standing side by side as well when the heavens opened up to him and he saw them both. I'm not interested in your perfect ideals on marriage, that's the world's understanding on marriage for life only, but God's understanding is marriage for time and eternity for what God doeth it shall be forever, not just for life only, so are you more righteous than God by telling the saints what to do on marriage?, Why do you try to counsel the Saints as if you were God himself? Nobody appointed you as Lord and God to tell the Saints what to do in the church. You are 150 years out of date with the church....
.
I may make a video on this topic. I haven't been able to get anyone to answer a question yet.. According to Jacob 2, David and Solomon had many wives and it was abominable to God. But in D&C 132, David did not sin and his wives were given by God. How can these contradictory statements be reconciled?
@@freethinker1026 What do you mean? The other was from Doctrines and Covenants 132.
The Bible itself answers your question. Notice that Jacob 2 doesn't mention Abraham, Jacob, Moses or any of the other righteous Hebrews who practiced polygamy. It mentions only David and Solomon, who clearly sinned in taking women they couldn't as wives.
answer: yes
Wrong
@@DannyAGray she didn't studied church history
No❤️
I have extensively studied church history. Joseph Smith was a fraud in many respects
Haleigh...you should know better than telling the truth like that!
Don’t like the way it makes you feel? Shelve it!
Thanks for the video - lots of good stuff as always. You said it ended formally in 1890???
But it didn't end in 1890. My 3rd great grandfather was a practicing polygamist until his death in 1923. He was a bishop in good standing.
Jason Exactly, I knew that- I was just seeing what their reply was going to be
@@TonyFieldson shoots I thought that’s what we’re doing in the temple now days, that if a mans wife dies, he can get sealed to another woman therefore “more than one wife”, in other words polygamy..... for the after life I guess? Yeah I say we’re still practicing polygamy.
Thank you for this video! By the way, Mary Hales was my 3rd Great Grandmother, so it was kind of cool to see a quote/picture from her included in this video!
Polygamy in the OT is described, but not prescribed by God. Every example of polygamy in the OT is negative. It’s not a strong argument for polygamy.
The example of Ruth was the only one time that it wasn't abused, but implemented properly
I thought this was very well done. Thanks!
Great video...
The drawn sword “revelation” is speculation. It’s not canonised teaching.
Jesus called it adultery. Period.
Where did Jesus say this?
Manggin Misao I never claimed he did. You on the other hand made a claim and are deflecting from the argument at hand. So again, when did Jesus say that polygamy was adultery?
Manggin Misao Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Once again, please furnish some evidence to show that Jesus opposed polygamy and called it adultery
@Manggin Misao I love how complex you've made jesus' position. Like, you started with "polygamy is adultery" then went and suggested that we claim something about two fleshes, and now you're saying Christ made specific exceptions.
I'm about to end your whole career, so sit down.
If a man and a wife become one flesh, how many fleshes are there? If that one flesh and another woman become one flesh, how many fleshes are there?
It's amazing to me how quickly evangelicals rush to insist that hellenistic ideas like sexual repression and strict monogamy are somehow Jesus breathed.
I'll gladly discuss any verse you come up with, so feel free to bring them up. And in case you missed it, the conjunction in your matthew quote is "and" not or, and the discussion is about divorce, do no, it doesn't have any reference to polygyny, for or against.
@Manggin Misao lolz, couldn't rebut so went for calling me "slow".
I thought you'd at least try, that's why I gave you such a long time before replying. That and having a life.
Anyhoo. I would recommend that if you're going to call someone stupid, you should be sure that your reply matches or exceeds theirs, lest people consider how much more foolish you must be.
Let me correct my typo. Where it says "do no," it's should say "so no,"
Have a wonderful day you sweet child of God, you.
There were a few plural marriages that were authorized after the formal discontinuation of the practice.
Thanks for sharing.
Even Abraham’s wife was NOT a fan of Abraham having another wife... It was nevertheless commanded by God.
@XYU It is generally prohibited except when commanded by God. Abraham had multiple wives and king David even had many wives and concubines.
You make a mistake regarding the "different gospel." You need to go back and look at what the gospel really is, as spoken of in the Bible. This is the same gospel preached by Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well as the Book of Mormon.
What you are confusing is that the Apostles preached that you must believe and have faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized by immersion, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost continue to repent when you make a mistake. They taught that all of this proves that you would follow and accept Christ, who is the ONLY means by which we can be saved and forgiven of our sings.
Anybody who takes away or adds to this core doctrine, the gospel of Jesus Christ, you should be wary of. This is what is taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints... MANY of the Christian churches have taken away from this doctrines, therefore they have corrupted the gospel of Christ... Christ will judge them, however, not me.
What are you talking about?! It was not commanded by God! Read Genesis 16 and find me the commandment. Genesis 17 tells Abraham he was wrong- the seed of promise was to come through Sarah, and his belief that she could not produce the seed *was the whole reason he contracted the union with Hagar.* You need to do some basic fact checking of these claims, dude.
Fact check events that happened thousands of years ago? It’s so simple! Point being, he had another wife. Polygamy doesn’t happen among the righteous unless God commands it.
I reread those chapters. God does not say Abraham was wrong. God tells him “My covenant is with thee.” He also sends an angelic messenger to tell Hagar to go back to Sarai. Do you really think Abraham and Sarai hatched the scheme of a second wife on their own? Hagar was part of the plan, and part of the covenant.
@XYU First of all you don't understand what the word "gospel" entails, nor do you understand the scriptures that says "another gospel."
Second, polygamy was condoned and even commanded by God in the old Testament. There are also many things that were taught by Christ and His apostles at the temples that were never written in the Bible. So obviously there is more that was taught that we don't have. Many of those things were restored to Joseph Smith as a fulfillment of the "restitution of all things" as quoted by Paul.
The Book of Mormon supports the Bible incredibly well. There are many, many more people who are rejecting the Bible and Christ. The Book of Mormon was saved for our time to further convince the world of the Messiah. It teaches the same gospel as found in the Bible and complements it perfectly. Those who read it, along with the Bible will come closer to Christ. That is what we hope for all mankind... that they will come closer to the Savior. Isn't that something any "christian" would want?
@XYU And yet we have used the Bible to show you that polygamy was practiced in the Bible MANY times... but I guess you don't believe in the Bible?
So much respect for you trying to cover this. It’s about time the LDS church addressed this and the other extremely challenging topics you have covered. I really think you did the best you could do and my heart and prayer goes out to you.
That being said, I still don’t understand how you believe that God, the perfect and just God of the Bible, would tempt Joseph Smith to sin. Or tempt nephi to kill Laban? James 1:13 says God can’t tempt anyone.
You’re right there is polygamy in the Bible but there’s also murder and many other sins, that’s the thing though GOD STILL CALLS IT SIN. God never once in the Bible encourages polygamy He discourages it. Abraham was wrong to sleep with Hagar. David was wrong to sleep with Bathsheba. The Bible is very very clear about these being sins and moments where those men failed.
If Joseph Smith was really a man of God he would have known what Jesus said in Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”
Or Matthew 19:9 or Romans 7:2-3 and stood on that in the face of being tempted by that “angel”.
Let’s say an angel did tell him to do those things, he should have known satan can disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14) and that he should have tested the spirit (1 John 4:1).
A real test of Joseph’s smiths faith would have been him standing on the Word of God like Abraham did (trusting God’s promise to make him the father of nations (Hebrews 11)) and saying no weapon formed against me will prosper or to live is Christ to die is gain and let the demon strike him with the sword.
I don’t see how any of you believe that this sexist racist man named Joseph Smith represented the Holy God. I think it is much more likely he was visited multiple times by satan in an attempt to deceive him and with him so so so many others. Can you see how that could be a possibility? If not, why? Why do you believe that angel was sent from God to tell Joseph to sin? Or do you disagree with Jesus that what Joseph did wasn’t sin?
I’d really appreciate an honest response from someone. I’ve been meeting with missionaries for months now, my best friend is LDS. I want to understand but I can’t get past this at all.
You could get past it only if first you humble yourself to the possibility that maybe you have a few incorrect preconceived notions. Take a few steps back.
@@vendingdudes I love you, so I'll tell you straight … your response gives absolutely no refutation of Joseph's secret actions.
With love, not hate, I'll tell you that the complete failure of the church to acknowledge the sins of its past hurts deeply
Read your Bible my friend, it's worse than you think. God does command people to break commandments without it being considered sin. Just like Nephi was commanded to kill Labin. Saul was commanded to wipe out a town killing women and children.
This was one of the three things the Israelites were obliged to do when they came into the land of Canaan, as Kimchi observes; one was, to appoint a king (Saul) over them, another, to build the house of the sanctuary, and the third, to blot out the name and memory of Amalek
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’” (God even commanded to kill little babies)
Nowhere does God ever declare polygamy to be sinful or speak a negative word against it in the Bible. The Law assumed that polygamy would be a valid, moral expression of marriage in Israelite society along with monogamy as shown in Exodus 21:7-11, Deut 21:15-17, Deut 22:22-29, and Deut 25:5-10. The Levirate Law in Deuteronomy 25:5-10, which commands a brother to marry his deceased brother’s childless widow and have children in his brother’s name, makes no exception if the surviving brother is already married. Therefore this command would result in polygamous marriages if the surviving brother was already married, and in practice it often did. Furthermore, God figuratively describes himself as having a polygamous relationship with Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 3:6-11 and Ezekiel 23:1-12. Also, Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25:1-13 describes the coming Kingdom in terms of polygamy between a single bridegroom and ten virgins.
The Bible is actually more disturbing then LDS History. In the Bible you can rape a virgin as long as you pay the father 50 shackles of silver but you are commanded marry the girl for the rest of your life.
Now ask yourself this question why doesn't the God of the Bible care about the woman's feelings, because apparently she doesn't get to make her own discussion. Sorry you have to marry the guy that raped you.
This is why the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth and a man would get closer to God by abiding to it's precepts then any other book.
This doesn't mean the Book of Mormon has to be a historical manuscript, but it just needs to be a spiritual one. The truth of the Book of Mormon is that it brings a man to God by abiding by it's precepts.
Jacob specifically mentioned unauthorized polygamy as an iniquitous practice. “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. . . . Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old” (Jacob 2:24, 26). Jacob therefore categorized such unauthorized instances of polygyny and concubinage (a man marrying multiple women), as sinful, for, he said, God “delight[s] in the chastity of women” (Jacob 2:28), and would not tolerate lascivious men abusing women (Jacob 2:32-33).
What do you believe is the most correct?
(1) Bible that allows polygamy
(2) Book of Mormon doesn't allow polygamy
Doctrine and Covenants 129 gives further light and knowledge on how to discern between messengers of God vs those of the devil.
Well if Joseph was someone tempted by Satan, he couldn't possibly produce a book which he claimed was from God, dripping with vital and clear doctrines that actually helps people come closer to Christ. If you could read the Book of Mormon you will know what I am talking about.
Our stay in Salt Lake City amounted to only two days, and therefore we had no time to make the customary inquisition into the workings of polygamy and get up the usual statistics and deductions preparatory to calling the attention of the nation at large once more to the matter.
I Was Touched
I had the will to do it. With the gushing self-sufficiency of youth I was feverish to plunge in headlong and achieve a great reform here-until I saw the Mormon women. Then I was touched. My heart was wiser than my head. It warmed toward these poor, ungainly and pathetically “homely” creatures, and as I turned to hide the generous moisture in my eyes, I said, “No-the man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their harsh censure-and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence.” ~Mark Twain
I adore Mark Twain. Ahhh the wisdom and insight... LOL!
Hello, In the Book of Mormon. What is the meaning of Jacob 2:27?
David Snell would you commit an equivalent genocide if it was revealed by the prophetthat it must be done and is a commandment of God?
No.
@@davidsnell2605 why not? The isrealite people apparently did it just because their prophet said so.
@@davidsnell2605 your video talks about all the things that people had to do back in the day to test their faith. You would fail that test. What about if the prophet asked you to sacrifice your child on an altar? Or removing the head of Trump because it is better that one man should perish than an entire nation should dwindle in unbelief?
Would you take a second or third wife if they asked you to?
@@athenshuff8730 I would need a witness similar to the witness many of the early saints received concerning polygamy (some of their experiences are provided in the video) for me to do anything like that. We're always entitled to a personal witness.
You make it sound as if people blindly and unquestioningly followed Joseph Smith, which, especially in the case of polygamy, was not the case, nor what was asked for or required. Multiple women simply turned Joseph down. Others said 'no' until they received a witness that what he was asking was ok with God.
I try to follow the advice (ironically) of the prophet Brigham Young: "I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. ... Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not."
Would you commit genocide if you did recieve such a witness?
Thank you for this. I have been struggling with the subject of Polygamy for a long time. I didn't want it to affect my testimony. Your explanation helps me.
Please never allow it to shake your testimony of God
Joseph did this in secret. The church covered his actions up until the internet exposed him almost 200 years later! I can see why that would shake your faith in Joseph Smith.
Please don't give up on God.
It's hard to blame just Joseph when the church covered it up too.
He pressured his victims to get his desires met secretly behind Emma's back. He also married other married women
This video doesn't fix these issues
A man like him could never be used by God
Jesus said we should keep searching. Please keep searching until you find the truth 🙂
@@thinkingman1820 Marrying fourteen-year-olds is a disgrace!!
@@thinkingman1820 I don't think you watched the video.
Well done
Does anyone know where I can read about Joseph meeting this angel?
I am also curious about the Church's position in recent decades. I know now ex-mormons who were excommunicated for bringing up the topic of polygamy decades ago. They simply wanted answers. How was this type of suppression of history of God?
I don't think polygamy in general has been suppressed. I've known about it since I was a child. That said, a lot of people thought it began with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith. Was Joseph Smith's polygamy suppressed? I don't know. Could have been. Joseph himself tried to keep it a secret (when it got out in the open he was killed, in part, for it). So I wouldn't be surprised if others did as well. Also, there's just a lot we simply haven't known in the past, and still a ton we don't know now. It's not a very well documented thing.
But I do agree to an extent, I think the polygamy issue could have been handled better in past decades. But I understand why it hasn't gotten much lime-light. It's not something anyone really wants to touch.
It's clear that people don't have to be perfect to be called of God. The next question, though, is how *imperfect* does a prophet need to be before God removes that sacred calling from them. In the case of the polygamous founding fathers of Christianity, we Christians only have a couple of options:
God sanctioned their polygamy. In which case, it's a clear precedent and condemning Joseph Smith becomes more difficult. If God sanctioned it then, He can sanction it in the 1830s.
Or God did not sanction their polygamy, in which case they seriously sinned. Yet, God still allowed them to be prophets (otherwise, Christianity would be founded upon fallen prophets, which I think we can agree was not the case). This would also set a precedent, though an even less-savory one, of prophets practicing polygamy. Either way, it's hard to saw Joseph couldn't be a prophet because he practiced polygamy.
I'm not sure what happened to your ex-communicated friends. I'm sure there was more to each of their stories, but if mistakes were made in their excommunication, those people will answer for it. Have a great day!
I tend to be skeptical when I hear about people who were excommunicated "just for asking questions." To my knowledge, asking questions has never been punishable - but pointing out contradictions and claiming the church must be wrong because of X does suggest apostasy, especially if they are telling others that the church is lying about it. If they were humbly seeking the truth and trying to serve the Lord the best they could, I would have expected them to stay with the church and try to be rebaptized rather than quitting entirely. This is partly speculation on my part, and I'm sure there have been excommunications for improper reasons, but the frequently-repeated claim that "they simply wanted answers" doesn't hold for me.
I have a question. If any movies, music, books, tv shows, and other forms of media that have sex, violence, and language are considered inappropriate, a bad influence, and so on, then why do so many people keep ignoring the fact that the Bible is full of adultery, rape, genocide, and human sacrifices?
@@Dino23968 God punishes the sins you mention. They are not ignored, we recognize God's grace in forgiving then when people repent.
sylvia g Then what about the parts about God drowning the world in the whole Noah’s Ark thing, forcing Abraham to stab his own son to death, and even sending an angel of death to kill ever firstborn of Egypt(which could be any age from babies to children)?
Don’t forget that D&C 132 is still cannon and that it mentions plural marriage as a requirement for men to gain exaltation and to become gods. Not only that but if you don’t abide in plural marriage that you are damned.
yes, that is because current LDS leaders WILL practice polygamy when they die. Numerous leaders and many members have been married and sealed, had a spouse pass, and have become married and sealed a second time. When these couples all pass away they will be rejoined in a polygamous marriage in the afterlife, where they will (scripturally speaking) have physical relations to produce spirit children. This is LDS doctrine. Or as Kwaku would say "Its just a fact." :)
Section 132 does not mention plural marriage is a requirement for exaltation and to become a god.
Michael, the chapter summary in section 132 defines celestial marriage as plural marriage. Verses 1-6 state that Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant. Verses 15-20 state that celestial marriage and the continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods. Verses 4-6 says that if you abide not in that covenant that Ye are damned saith the Lord God. As time has gone on celestial marriage has shifted from being plural marriage which was supposed to be a everlasting covenant to now being temple marriage. It don’t matter to me either way, but the text says what it says. The early prophets would also agree.
More on this here if anyone is interested. You are, of course, free to interpret D&C 132 as you deem appropriate. www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Requirement_for_exaltation#Question:_Does_D.26C_132_state_that_polygamy_is_required_for_our_exaltation.3F
David, truly enjoy your videos, keep at it!! Much love!
This is a fairly good video, though I think it probably could've addressed things a bit better than it did (I hardly blame you for that, it's a very complicated topic and most of the evidence we have about it at all is after the fact, at least as it related to Joseph Smith). I will do my best to elaborate on why Dave suggests that Joseph was originally trying to find a way to sort of get around the commandment in a way (and why this indicates that we was sincerely trying to spare Emma the distress that it would inevitably cause).
The timeline goes something like this:
1. First angel visit commanding Joseph Smith to practice plural marriage. Not too long after this the first plural marriage is done and it's messy for everyone involved, not a pretty picture.
- After this, a considerable amount of time goes by before Joseph dares go near the practice of polygamy. It's unclear when Joseph received his second visit from the angel, but the way I see it, it's most likely not long before Joseph is married to yet another woman
2. After that Joseph starts with the polyamorous marriages, marrying women who were already married to someone else. Anything before 2016 related to this topic is outdated. We thought that we had evidence that Joseph had a daughter with one of these married women, but genetic research indicates that Joseph and his supposed daughter, Josephine, are not related. So before 2016 the evidence pointed towards these polyamorous marriages being consummated, but now we have good reason to think that they weren't, as all any other potential candidates for Joseph's children conceived through these polyamorous marriages are ruled out except for maybe one of them, who died in infancy, and thus we aren't able to collect any genetic material from their descendants to see if they're related to Joseph. Given that all other candidates from these polyamorous marriages are duds, I think it's a safe assumption to say that they weren't consummated.
Along with all of that, it was frequently the case that Joseph approached the husbands of these women to see if they would be okay with it. If you're some sex crazed charlatan trying to seduce women in the 1800's, the last thing you would want to do is go kindly ask the women's husband if they were okay with it. Back then, if you caught your wife committing adultery with a man, it was considered legal homicide to kill the man who was sleeping with your wife. In addition to that, there were a number of husbands that he approached who weren't even members of the church but were nonetheless friends of the church, and in one case one such husband actually asked Joseph to be sealed to his wife because he had no interest in things regarding the afterlife but wanted his wife to be able to be sealed to someone. All of these non-member husbands (to my knowledge) remained friends of the church for the rest of their lives. Also, as far as I'm aware, Emma had no issues with these marriages, because it seems that they were sealings for eternity only, and thus Joseph wasn't having sexual relations with them. This is why it's suggested that these marriages were Joseph's attempt to technically keep the commandment of God to practice polygamy but avoid having sex with them to spare Emma distress.
3. Then the third angel visit happened, and this is when it's said that the angel threatened Joseph with a sword, telling him to get with the program or suffer the consequences. This is when the polyamorous marriages mostly stopped with a few exceptions. In these marriages, at least some of them were consummated, and these are the ones that Emma found very painful to deal with, and she never seemed to fully reconcile herself with the doctrine of plural marriage (understandably so, I can hardly imagine how difficult it would've been).
But tell me, does that sound a whole lot like Joseph is just in it for the sex? If you ask me, I would say no, but that's merely how I interpret the evidence. It is up to everyone to come to their own conclusion. It is understandable to have extreme discomfort regarding this topic. You'd have to be a fool to not see why mixing sex and religion like this is fairly alarming, and a good reason to be very careful in coming to an informed understanding.
Now, there's a few other common themes that I've seen in the comments that I also think I could address:
- No, Joseph did not force women into plural marriage. He did not tell them that if they didn't comply then he would be killed by an angel with a flaming sword. There were women who he approached about the subject who told him no, and they remained in the Church with no issue. In one case Joseph broached the topic with one woman, saying that he was going to tell her about plural marriage. She asked him to tell someone else.
- No, plural marriage is not necessary for exaltation, and as far as I'm aware Joseph Smith never said it was. Wilford Woodruff said that he never heard Joseph teach such a thing. There's one quote from Brigham Young which, when taken out of context, certainly seems to be saying that plural marriage is necessary for exaltation. However, when you look at the text before and after that quote, it becomes clear that he's saying that an acceptance of plural marriage as doctrine is what is necessary, not personally practicing it oneself. Most members of the Church at the time didn't practice plural marriage. It was a minority of members, though obviously not an insignificant amount. The one exception to this is that a later prophet, Joseph F. Smith, did think that it was necessary for exaltation, but given that he's the only church authority who has claimed that I think we can safely go with what the majority of leaders have taught.
- Plural marriage could in theory come back, but if you ask me I highly doubt it. It could technically be argued that in a way it is still in force, but only so far as if your spouse dies it is perfectly fine to marry and be sealed to someone else, and your sealing to your previous spouse is still intact. But plural marriage in the mortal stage of our progression is not permitted at present. In Jacob 2:30, (albeit not something that people who aren't Latter-Day Saints would accept as scripture, but a Biblical case could theoretically be made for it as well, though this comment is long enough so I shall forebear) makes it clear that while monogamous marriages are the norm, God can sanction polygamous marriages should it suit His purposes, but when it has not been sanctioned it is a direct violation of Gods commandments. That is the state we currently inhabit in regards to God's commands about plural marriage.
Again, this is my interpretation of the evidence. It's perfectly possible for people to look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. It all depends on what assumptions you bring to the table. If you assume that Joseph isn't a true prophet then you would be inclined to think of him as a scumbag. I'm inclined to believe that he is a prophet, in my opinion evidenced by the Book of Mormon. And that's all just fine. Make of it what you will. If you have genuine concerns or questions about this topic, just know that there's no easy answers, and you'll have to look and search for quite a while, but you can find the answers if you look earnestly. If you do genuinely want to find answers, go ahead, commit to the search, and remember that our understanding of history changes as new evidence comes to light. You can search, and you don't have to be afraid of what you'll find if you do search. If you already have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and a personal relationship with God, if you've made covenants with Him, remember those things. You can be searching for answers and having concerns and still remain faithful to your covenants and relationship with God. Fear not, He'll guide you if you let Him and search with dedication and patience, of that I bear witness, in the Name of Jesus Christ, amen.
One question I have is why God needed to coerce Joseph with an angel with a flaming sword. God could have sent that angel to put a stop to slavery or the holocaust. But no, according to Mormons the most pressing issue to god in all of history since the Resurrection of Christ was Joseph Smith not being married or "sealed" to 14 year old girls and other mens' wives.
Not exactly. Most versions did not have a sword at all, let alone flaming. Like most of Joseph's angelic visits it was likely a personal message. I think the interpretation that the angel was threatening violence is also suspect. Smith used the term 'destruction' quite often in his sermons, always meaning the spiritual consequences of sin. I think the story has been exaggerated over time. Early versions did not even mention any sword at all.
Do you have any evidence that God commanded or required polygamy in the Bible?
Well, it looks like there’s no evidence in the Bible. Just because it happened, doesn’t mean God commanded it.
There is nothing that says in the bible that you can't have sex with more than one women as long as you own them or are married to them. You only can't have sex with a women who belongs to someone else. I knew a guy in Orem ,Utah that had two wives. He belonged to a fundamentalist group. They all go down to mexico and get married then come bake to the states.
@@kennance115read 1 Kings 11 in the bible Solomon was punished for what he did.
If believers of any holy books actually followed their (supposedly perfect) teachings, they'd either be in prison or the world would be in chaos.
The Bible never authorized the polygamy of Joseph Smith
He is exactly the kind of false prophet the Bible warns us to avoid
So…God told Joe to practice polygamy. He sent an Angel three times to tell him to do it. But Joe outsmarted God and only kinda/sorta married all of those women until…..later.
If I wanted a religion to make me stretch this much I’d join the one that does yoga.
Great explanation and insight, I feel the same.
I don't think God desired polygamy at all. He may have permitted it for the same reason he permitted divorce as Jesus states: due to hardness of heart. It wasn't that way in the beginning and that is often when I go to when I want to know God's ideal will. This is one of the few big reasons I doubt I will become an LDS. I don't think God ever instructed anyone to become a polygamist.
That's Abraham and Jacob you're talking about, though - men every prophet, and even Jesus himself, respected as righteous patriarchs of the Israelite people. There's no evidence at all that God considered them "hard-hearted".
Heck, he was willing to sacrifice his son - all God had to do was ask. Why wouldn't he obey if God said "just don't do the whole polygamy thing"? Your reasoning makes no sense.
@@EricVMag Respect doesn't mean they did everything right. I mean King David was respected as Israel's best king, but he was still an adulterer and murderer.
Funny that you should mention David. In 1 Kings 15:5, it is pointed out that his only mistake was the one adultery and the one murder. Therefore, his plural marriage was approved, not just allowed.
You're certainly allowed to hold your position on polygamy, but you've got to concede that there is nowhere at all in the Bible that states or implies polygamy was just "tolerared". All throughout the Old Testament, it is treated just like any other aspect of the life of Israelites.
@@EricVMag
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Matthew 19:4-7 KJV
doesn't say 3 or more. It says twain, or two in modern parlance
@@edenicchristian335 All marriage, including plural marriage, is obviously ALWAYS between two people. Except modern polyamorous relationships, of course.
I really like your content and I am glad to see someone who really knows and believes in their faith!
But one thing to keep in mind.
Exodus 32 was not genocide. It was a war camp.
Also anytime there was polygamy in the bible there was an immediate downfall. The bible is journalistic in nature so it just records things. It doesn't narrate. The closest thing to narration being the gospels.
Also Jesus in Mark 10 outlines the marital union. Its between one man and one woman. And they can join in (sex) to be one flesh. Thats not polygamy. God never changes Isaiah 43. Why does God change?
God doesn’t change, did he change when he fulfilled the law of Moses?
I would like to suggest that you do A LOT of research and do another video on this topic.
Can you do a video about Fanny Alger?
LOL LOL having fanny was what Joe cared about
Иван Русь yeah it literally just sounds like plain adultery to me, I want to see the Mormons’ explanation for this
It's not gonna happen-promise
Great video. So so so good. I love your whole "faith and beliefs" series but this one was just perfect. Thank you.
You guys did a really great job explaining plural marriage back in the early days of the church. I've tried explaining these things to people before, but it's hard without all the quotes and facts you've provided. I think in the future I will refer this video to others so they can understand it better than when I try to explain it myself.
Here is a fact.....
If a man multiply unto himself wives.....His heart will be moved away from God......this is what the Bible says.......it is that plain....it is that precious.
We see the consequences throughout history.
@@ryanadams5719 It's true that when men take for themselves multiple wives when God has not allowed it, then it is a sin and can lead to consequences. God sometimes allows men to have multiple wives throughout history including in the bible for many purposes some of which only God knows. King David is an example of this, he was given many wives by God. However, King David lost his favor with God when he lusted after a woman (Bathsheba) that God had not given him, a woman who was married. David killed the woman's husband by sending him into the front lines of battle and then took the woman for himself. Breaking many of God's commandments.
@@JonathonMellor In 2 Samuel 12, the Lord, speaking through Nathan the prophet, says to King David, “I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your arms, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added you many more things like these.”
At face value, this seems to suggest that God gave David multiple wives, and then stood ready to add to his harem with divine sanction. Of course, that’s precisely the problem with pressing Scripture into a wooden literal labyrinth, because-in truth-if Nathan’s words are anything at all, they are ironic. David had just murdered a man in order to have another woman appended to his harem. Despite the generosity of the very God who had made him sovereign ruler of the land, the king had stolen the wife of a servant and that to satisfy his carnal lust. Thus, in language that dripped with irony, Nathan the prophet pronounces judgment against Israel’s king. As such, 2 Samuel 12 hardly constitutes divine approval for the practice of polygamy.
And this is not a singular case. As with David, Solomon, David’s son, had extravagances in multiplying not only horses, but multiplying wives, and that was a significant factor in the unraveling of a kingdom. Who can forget the explicit admonition of Moses in Deuteronomy 17:17: Do not multiply wives or your heart will be led astray! If this applied to the great kings of Israel, how much more the subjects of the kingdom. Moreover, monogamous marriage is clearly taught in Genesis (2:22-24), and then reiterated by Christ himself. Indeed, Jesus went on to say that, “Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery” (Matt 19:9). Not only so, but marriage is an analogy for the relationship that God has with his people, with the Church, His one and only bride.
Furthermore, reading the Bible for all its worth involves recognition that the narratives of Scripture are often descriptive as opposed to prescriptive. The fact that Scripture reveals the patriarchs with all their warts and moles and wrinkles is to warn us of their failures, it’s not to teach us to emulate their practices. Far from blinking at David’s polygamous behavior, the Bible reveals that as a result of his sin, the sword never left his home.
Finally, let me say this; As God permitted divorce because of the hardness of men’s hearts, so too He put up with polygamy because of humankind’s insolent stubbornness. Indeed, God causes even the wrath of man to please Him.
@@ryanadams5719 Were Abraham and Jacob sinning in their practice of plural marriage, or was their plural marriage permitted by God?
Thank you for going at this head on. Really looking forward to next week's video. Happy to see Brother Smoot is watching :)
I am watching.
Is it true that there's a story about Emma? Where when it was introduced an angel came and visit her and after the visit she went up to Joseph and told him she would accept polygamy?
I tell talk about self scarifice...that joesph really was a holh man, he didnt want to sleep w all these women, no it was horrible, but he did it for God?
This is self delusion at its best, joseph was a liar and a con man.
Look Jesus came, he paid the price for all our sins.
God has provided us a revelation of who He is and what He wants. Faith in Christ saves us.
He is more than able to preserve His Word for us and He has.
WAKE UP
D&C was written after Joseph Smith was already practicing polygamy and upon his brother (Hyrum Smith) requested that Joseph receive a revelation that God commanded some LDS leaders to practice it. Hyrum S. Condemned the act until he learned that his brother Joseph was already engaged in the practice. BTW - Emma despised the institution of polygamy and had many “knock down, drag outs” with Joseph Smith over his involvement. Joseph Smith had over 30 wives before his death. Brigham Young had even more and took great pride in many of the young women he seduced into marriage as he grew older.
Today I learned that Joseph Smith wasn't driven by lust because you can 'kinda' do what God commands. Nice.
Citations would have been nice. Which historical records are you referring to?
It's a mystery to me that society, in general, embraces fornication with multiple, shared partners, singularly and plurally, yet abhors the idea of having legal, loving polygamic relationships.
Both should be abhorred
@@MA-wb1xo one should while the other needs to be better understood.
Facts🎉
Thank you so much for your videos. My daughter just recently told me that she does not believe in the church anymore because she came to find out of the plural marriages that Joseph Smith had, including with a 14 year old. You explained it so well! I hope I can show this video to her and she is willing to watch it.
@@jonbaker476 literally all just hear say or flat out lies. No physical evidence (in the form of illegitimate children) that Joseph Smith did that. The "young man" you are referring to had committed an unlawful sexual act. Seeing as he wasn't married (having a fiance as you have pointed out) the only other unlawful sexual act would be rape. You are literally defending a rapist. The castration was not an act condoned by Brigham as they tried to have Bishop Snow arrested but politicians in DC told them to drop the matter. Castrating rapist's is something that is still done in some countries to this day so... Which story makes more sense historically?
You may want to listen to your daughter!! Turn to Christianity!
@@jonbaker476 I have read Helen Mar's journals and publications. Where did she say that? If you are going to make those kind of claims you need citations. My impression, along with many others including non-mormons is that her journal indicates the opposite of your assertions.
JS simply was a sexual predator and manipulative narcissistic man I don’t understand how that can be denied
These people want to believe so badly that they'll justify all sorts of horrid things. Just like any other cult.
This was the sugar coated version. Go see other sources for this topic. A lot of important details were left out because obviously this channel had a bias.
On a side note, this seems like a big departure from your usual style--I don't think there's ever been this much scripted content or historical citing. It's not a problem either way, but I was curious, is this a "church approved" source of information or is it a private production made by members without consultation from the church?
Great question. Every episode of the Faith and Beliefs segment is scripted. I write the scripts (I'm the guy talking in the video). Of course, this is an extremely complex topic and one drenched in a lot of rumor and hearsay, so I did my best to word things clearly and carefully. I had a couple of people fact-check my script before filming. Neither of those people did so as representatives of Church headquarters. Also, neither one really suggested significant changes. This was a departure from my usual style mainly because it would have been impossible to cover everything I wanted to cover within the normal 5 minutes I try to limit myself to, and I didn't want to have to do several episodes on polygamy, because it's not a topic I'm a fan of haha. The Church is certainly aware of Saints Unscripted, but no, I suppose we would not be an official "church approved" source, which is unfortunately probably why a lot of people watch our show.
@@davidsnell2605 Thanks!
God never commanded polygamy in the Bible.
He never commanded it but he never was against it either
Even if you are right regarding polygamy, there's still the issue of Joseph Smith marrying several pairs of sisters, which was prohibited by the Old Testament where the plural marriages are referenced. Whatever one's view of polygamy is the historical evidence about Smith suggests that he was a vile, nasty bastard
@@kevinevans8892 I don’t agree with the church or polygamy, but sisters were definitely married in the Bible. Jacob married Leah and Rachel.
Mother daughters might have been off limits though…
Practicing polygamy because you’re a king or someone of wealth is NOT the same as God approving polygamy... there’s a big difference here. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham, not God. Re-read Genesis. God never approved this behavior even though it’s seen in almost all cultures, that doesn’t make it God approved. It shows the “natural man” who is an enemy to God...naturally follows physical desires which leads to sin which leads to spiritual death. This is the pattern you see throughout all the scriptures...Why is a Bishop, Elder or Deacon to have ONLY ONE WIFE? This is Biblical scripture, see 1st Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6 only one wife!!! Why would God tell Joseph Smith something different from what was taught in the New Testiment? ....I’m willing to “shelf it” isn’t a valid answer to something as doctrinal as polygamy. It’s required for the highest place in the celestial kingdom D & C 132. Are you willing to show the journal entries if the other girls married to Joseph Smith?..like Fanny Alger? The twins? the mother daughter?or the ones who suffered horrible anxiety and we’re probably damaged for life? Why would a man of God do this? Why would it be necessary or only a few years then all of the sudden, it’s taken away? Can you honestly answer these questions?
I don't know of anywhere in the bible that god encourages polygamy; let's call it plural marriage. I don't know anywhere in the bible where god condemns it either.
God does condemn Adultery though. I 'm not sure god really cares how many wives you have. The versus you mention in 1st Timothy and Titus; do not condemn plural marriage ether. These versus simply are requirements for those who hold positions in the Church. Maybe Paul thought that Bishops, Elders, and Decans, should have only one wife because it would have been impossible for them to preform their duties. You have to remember that back then it was common for families to follow the Patriarch when he traveled. This is still common today. They are called camp followers.
@@kennance115 "The versus you mention in 1st Timothy and Titus; do not condemn plural marriage ether. These versus simply are requirements for those who hold positions in the Church." ...OK, so, I agree with your comments for the most part. But, if the position of the LDS church is that they are organized like the same church from the day Jesus organized it, why then would there be a need for a church leader to have more than one wife?
…yes, exactly, I agree! It’s braking the first commandment, putting our sexual desires as our god. If we put God first or have no other gods before us other than Yahweh, then our sexual desire should not be primary.
God doesn't need polygamy to raise up seed he proved that with Adam and Eve, Noah, after devestating wars, in the early days of Christianity, etc. Never commanded or instituted polygamy and raised up seed just fine without it.
Emma was Joseph's only wife so her only struggle with polygamy was to counter the false accusations.
“When your wife dies she’s mine buster”
Polygamy is still a thing when you realize men can still be married to more than one woman in the temple but a woman can only be married to one man. The manifesto that ended the practice only said they wouldn’t practice it anymore but not that Mormons don’t believe in it. It is still in the doctrine and many Mormons believe God will bring it back, if they are being honest
The Fundamental Latter Day Saints are still polygamist living in Utah and their Zion is Missouri as well. Think about that one.
Theyre crazy zealots that want to be accepted and in doing so they live in Missouri. Thought concluded. Whats your point skippy?
Okay, I’m thinking about it now
@@ourlifeinwashington4114 The point, "skippy", is that the Mormons who were practicing polygamy and polyandry in Missouri in the 1800s were "crazy zealots" who are the ones responsible for inspiring those who are practicing polygamy today.
They aren't fundamentalists. POlygamy isn't a fundamental teaching of the church.
The point is not the polygamy. The point is all the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) and the Fundamental Latter Day Saints of Utah not ( Mormon) are all headed to Missouri for the apocalypse. Your neighbors will be China. They have millions invested in Missouri.
Hyrum said the lord never commanded polygamy so get that out of your heads. He never did once until Brigham pulled 132 doctored it up to fit it in with his “new order of things”!
Once you've been witnessed to of truth. All you hear is Isaiah 55:8-11
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
This used to bug me and I couldn't get a grip on it. It's funny how this doesn't bother me anymore. Once the Holy Ghost witnessed to me of the truth of The Book of Mormon, this doesn't even phase me anymore.
I dunno. There's a lot omitted here. Emma wasn't Joseph's first sealed wife, Emma didn't know, the marriages started before the sealing power was revealed, the legal affidavit of the wives and intimacy... All these things are really important, but they weren't mentioned in the video.
Good point...classic coverup.
I’m a former Mormon drag queen who loves Mormons. Thank you for this honest, amazing video!
“Honest?” Lies by omission.
That's a coincidence. I'm a Mormon who loves drag queens.
Lol love your username
Gordon B. Hinckley about polygamy: "We have nothing to do with it. It is against the law. Members of the LDS-church practicing polygamy will be excommunicated". Is there anyone of the audience who is aware of a gap? I mean, do you notice that nothing, but nothing is said about virtue or ethics? Members of the church need very badly, what it is to live an exemplary lifestyle. Or is the image of Joseph Smith in jeopardy?
The image of Joseph is very much in jeopardy because he didn't just practice polygamy, claiming he wasn't involved for many years, but also polyandry... The taking of another man's wife.
I don't think I agree that polygamy is unfair to women if women are volunteers for it (unlike what happens in FLDS). I was listening to a really interesting podcast that predicted it's return in the near future with the astronomical rise in competent women over less and less competent/educated men. With boys being degraded in the "name of feminism", we are seeing all women rise, but a polarization of men, with some being highly successful, and many more being unsuccessful. This is going to leave women with a choice between being the second or third partner of a man they respect, or the only partner of someone not good enough for them. I of course would prefer what I have (a monogamous relationship with a competent man) but if I was thrust back in the dating pool, I think I would prefer sharing a competent man over having some basement dweller to myself.
Great job on this David! So well said!
There be fire in the comment section
Why he was marrying married women???? Please someone explain me
Short answer:
Yes
You didn’t even watch the video 🤣
I am not a member of the Church, I disagree fundamentally with its teachings and its founder. But, I have great respect for your courage in speaking on the topic as well as saying many times that you simply "do not know". This is an experience I feel many do not have with the Church, many trying to hide parts of it that don't vibe with the times.
In my experience growing up with members, many of them being life-long friends of mine, many of them seemed to do ANYTHING to make others believe in the faith, even lying about it or even worse-- indoctrinating someone without giving them full knowledge of the teachings and/or practices of the faith.
You have my respect for sure, but I disagree with the teachings- a way of disagreeing I might add that we should adopt into our polarizing culture
Joseph was practicing polygamy before the sealing authority was given. LDS historian, Richard Bushman, said “There is evidence that Joseph was a polygamist by 1835” (Rough Stone Rolling, p.323). Plural marriages are rooted in the notion of “sealing” for both time and eternity. The “sealing” power was not restored until April 3, 1836 when Elijah appeared to Joseph in the Kirtland Temple and conferred the sealing keys upon him. So, Joseph’s marriage to Fanny Alger in 1833 was illegal under both the laws of the land and under any theory of divine authority; it was adultery.
Yes, but polygamy is not an issue of sealing. It is an issue of marriage. Just look at the Bible. There is zero mention of polygamy in relation to sealing. No. any polygamous marriages done prior to 1836 was not illegal under the laws of God, because God never revoked His laws allowing polygamy. Polygamy was revoked by corrupt Christian and Jewish leaders in the early centuries AD. Therefore the Christian standards against polygamy were invalid.
Michael Ellis yet LDS will say marriage is between a man and a woman which is why God created Adam and Eve. But yes JS was just sitting there having tea and coffee I mean milk and cookies with his many wives. 😉
@@MichaelEllisYT .....let's talk about God's standard against sin.
Rather than the Christian standard against polygamy.
After all....Christians didn't set the standard.....
And what are you, or historians, basing Joseph being married to Fanny on? A letter written by Oliver Cowdery who was at odds with Joseph at the time and who was just repeating rumor? Or are you basing it off of the 1872 letter Williaim McLellin wrote to Joseph's oldest son, relating the barn incident, in an attempt to convince him that his father practiced polygamy?
NoStoppingit7 the fact that the church says he practiced polygamy. So the church is lying? The sealing records proved he was sealed to other wives. If the church accepts it and you don’t then you’re going against the true church.
The historical evidence is clear - Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. He plainly spoke out against it many times, saying that anyone who was practicing it would be thrust straight to hell. He had 9 biological children with his one wife, yet no other children have ever been identified from his supposed other 30+ wives. Brigham Young served a mission with a polygamist group called the Cochranites well before polygamy was in Nauvoo, and even ended up marrying one of the women from that group, who already was married to another man and abandoned her children. Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball had multiple affairs with women in England while they were on their missions; none of these women were ever at any point married to them. Emma Smith and many of Joseph's close associates did not follow Brigham to Utah, and asserted to their dying breath that Joseph Smith never was involved in any way with polygamy. There is no contemporary documentation of any of the supposed secret marriages. Every woman who claimed to be married to Joseph Smith did so after his death. There are mountains of evidence that Joseph was never a polygamist, and there is literally zero evidence during Joseph's life that he was ever involved. All supposed evidence comes from well after his death, including the "revelation" to practice plural marriage, Section 132 of the D&C, which appeared out of Brigham's desk drawer in 1852, was not even canonized into scripture until 1876, and it's authenticity completely hinged upon the story of William Clayton, who claimed to have written down the revelation from Joseph, although Clayton had been fired by Joseph as one of his personal scribes for theft and dishonesty in the same month the supposed revelation was given. Please do your own research and don't blindly listen to the narrative of the church. Brigham Young was a liar and an agent of the devil, and we've all been deceived. Read 2 Nephi 28 and understand who Nephi is speaking to. Then read Jeremiah 17: 4-7 and look for the parallels to 2 Nephi 28. Exonerate the prophet, prepare this church for the coming of the Lord. All is not well in Zion.
The Church disagrees with you, it is clearly detailed in the Saints series published by the Church.
@@RyanMercer I’m perfectly aware of that. I disagree with the church on this subject.
@@prezp00nage24 Where did Emma deny Joseph's involvement with polygamy? Joseph's polygamous relationships were a thorn in the marriage from the time she found out about them. Some of the highest people in the church left the church because they witnessed this behavior and Joseph's justification of it through his "revelation."
I can't believe you would say there is 0 evidence for this. That its insane. Clayton isn't the only one who referred to the revelation. Yes, the reports were written down or compiled well after he died. So what. They are still reports from those who were victims of his actions. Joseph is a disgusting predator who used the God to manipulate young girls.
Poets, authors, musicians, and artists in the early 1800s all married 13-16 year old girls in England, america and European countries. People didn’t become 90 years old back then, and 18 wasn’t the official marriage age. And most people stayed a virgin until they were marry. Divorce was less common.
Do a careful reading of D&C 132 that outlines plural marriage and you'll notice the words destroy and obey used many times and you never see words like love or cherish. It's true that Joseph's polygamy wasn't just about sex, it was also about power and control.
Ah, the attractiveness of religion. "It doesn't have to make sense if you believe God said it."
The belief of false genders such as “non binary”
@@coffeedrinkingisnotasin6049 wrong. Joseph was sealed to her AFTER Windsor’s excommunication. Religious tradition at the time was that the marriage was null and void if such an event occurred. So she wasn’t married to him “while” she was married to Joseph.
Many quotes....why nothing from the Navoo Expositor? Authored in part by William Law, 1st counselor to Joseph Smith.
Excommunicated for adultery.
7:10 this is a gross misreading of Jacob 2. It’s saying the opposite.
The Saints that were mentioned were from the OT.polygamy is prohibited in the new testament times in corinthians,also old testament kings were told not to multiply wives, so just because solomon had multiple wives , it doesn't mean it was right.
Good point, I agree.
This was well done and probably the best polygamy justification I have ever seen. However, Joseph never practiced polygamy. Might I suggest you look a little closer at when the accounts were written and what motivated them to write them at that time. If you are going to do an indepth video on polygamy I would suggest looking deeper into John C. Bennett as well as the Higbys (and everyone who claimed Joseph practiced it). You should also ask yourself why Joseph wouldn't have followed the counsel found in D&C 132 (with regards to having consent of your wife) if he received it and was threatened by an angel and why would he lie about practicing something God commanded him to do?
There isn't a shred of evidence that Joseph practiced or preached polygamy only rumors and the words of adulterers, dissenters and those with a vested interest in justifying and protecting the practice.
Dig deeper!
I would love nothing more than to believe you're right.
@@davidsnell2605 I certainly wasn't expecting you to take my word for it. Do more extensive research starting with what I suggested in my previous post. And before including Fanny Alger in your follow up video, as some have requested, please research who those accounts came from and what led up to them. Spreading rumors/lies about anyone just isn't cool and I would think a Mormon would make sure what they are saying about their founder is accurate before stating it.
Stop denying the truth. These women spoke the truth so don't deny their experiences!
@@sc766 I cited, Fanny Alger, a woman who never once claimed to have had any relations with Joseph. As for the other women they didn't start alleging that they were married to Joseph until decades after his death. Most of those women were married to Heber or Brigham at the time and were highly motivated to protect their way of life (polygamy) at all costs. Not one of them made a contemporaneous account of having relations with Joseph and not one of them had offspring sired by Joseph. Of course that is because not one of them were married to Joseph!
@@nostoppingit7827 well looks like the LDS church says otherwise in their essays as well as other research from Brian Hales, Todd Compton , year of polygamy etc. No babies doesnt mean anything- miscarriage, abortion, death of a child were part of life. There was a reason why it was address in Navoo Expositor. Truth is truth
Joseph Smith wrote the Articles of Faith in which one article states, “we believe in honoring and obeying the laws of the land”. Bigamy was illegal in every state where Joseph took additional wives. An interesting, if not blatant, contradiction.
Bigamy didn't become illegal until 1862. Joseph Smith died in 1844.
The only state in which he lived that had bigamy laws predating the practice was Illinois. New York, Ohio, and Missouri did not have bigamy statutes until after his death.
So when you mentioned John C. Bennett's excommunication you failed to mention that Joseph's younger brother (William I believe) was implicated in the same practice that Bennett was. His younger brother, just like Bennett, told women that Joseph had authorized it. However, Joseph prevented Brigham Young from doing anything/passing judgement in regards to his brother.