Navigating Difficult Mother Daughter Relationships with Harriet Lerner
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2020
- Join @SheleanaAiyana, Founder of @RisingWoman and Harriet Lerner for a discussion on navigating a difficult mother/daughter relationship.
Harriet Lerner Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist, a contributor to psychoanalytic concepts regarding family and feminist theory and therapy, and also the author of many books written for the general public. My favourites are The Dance of Anger and The Dance of Intimacy! Her latest book is called "Why Won't You Apologize" and can be found on Amazon or at your local bookstore.
Website: www.harrietlerner.com/
Twitter: @harrietlerner
Harriet on FB / marriagerules
TEDxKC www.tedxkc.org/harriet-lerner/
Order my bestselling book, Becoming The One: courses.risingwoman.com/btobook
For my online programs: risingwoman.com/programs/
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Go to risingwoman.com/ for meditations, articles, book recommendations and more.
#consciousrelationships #healing #innerwork
So glad I had several therapists tell me to walk away from the family... Best thing for me was to walk away. No amount of talk can heal the abuse, agony, and a Mom who is not listening, minimizes abuse while disregarding you reality & feelings. DISTANCE IS RESPECTING YOURSELF.
I have distanced myself from a toxic narcissistic adult daughter I raised.
Thankfully I have a normal son so I dont feel completely separated from both my children
My daughter still acts like an entitled brat at 22 while spouting shes a christian
Sigh
@@cheesecakefan4880You raised her.
As I've aged, I've come to see my mom (and our disagreements) in a gentler light. She was a better mother than my younger, self-absorbed self gave her credit for being. She wasn't perfect, but she was a good person and, despite living with chronic depression, she got up every day and took good care of us. That took strength and, in the end, it has made a more positive difference in my life than I realized. May every woman be able to forgive their mothers. Love and forgiveness are the best remedies.
Im waiting for my 22yo daughter to stop having mom issues with me.
Maybe one day she will appreciate everything I sacrificed for her.
But maybe she wont
Sigh
How do u Do that if youve suffered a lifetime effect of the ripple effects of there abuse
It is balm to read your words. I was cut off as a mother 7 yrs ago, had been close (I thought, but apparently this was a facade), now no word and have resigned myself to no longer having her in my life. I wrote an amends letter and did my best to own my part. It seems this was not accepted either. At this point I can do nothing more on my part than live my own life and earnestly wish her every freedom and support to have a life of authenticity and constructive attachments who genuinely respect and love her.
Writer-this gives me hope. My adult daughter is so precious to me but she can’t stand me for a long time
Thank you for your words... very inspiring to see forgiveness, kindness, compassion and understanding from a daughter towards her mother!
Best thing I did was walk away from my Mom. No amount of conversation could heal my mother, nor make her hear, nor step out of her delusions. I NEED to save myself.
I feel like this talk is coming from the stand point of “poor mom, the whole world is against her. Give her the benefit of the doubt, give her respect.” But all of that is earned. A relationship goes both ways..
On another note, it’s not all on the child to be the mature one and guide the conversations into a mature way. I spent most of my life being a therapist to my mother and thats a really unhealthy place to be. I think to an extent, theres only so much we can do as daughters until the mothers see their wrong doings and acknowledge them. You can only “forgive and Forget” so many times before it turns into bitterness and resentment. It is not on the daughter to constantly watch out for mother’s feelings
Agreed. It is the mothers job to be a mother, not the daughter.
Thank you for humanizing motherhood, being a mother is so difficult, not only for the mother history but for the difficult circumstances we have had in our lives. Single mothers that have to work 24/7 not only outside but at home, yet we are blamed for whatever reason. As a mother I feel like you are saying, we are held to an impossible standard. We are not seen as humans with fails and strength, I feel like my daughter feels like I owe her xxx impossible standard, we don't need compassion but UNDERSTANDING.
My Mom is the best! It's funny when we get older and see our parents as people how it changes things.
I read about evil mothers every day in my narcissistic abuse recovery group. The group is specifically for adult children of narcissistic mothers. The stories are just heartbreaking. Many of these vicious “queen bees” have pitted their own children against each other creating lifelong severed relationships. Some of these scapegoated children live their entire lives in despair. Some go on to take their own lives, while others become very very ill with medical conditions like auto immune disorders, heart disease and cancer. I am one of them. Living with late stage cancer after my health deteriorated dealing with such wickedness. The evil queen devised a smear campaign and told blatant lies about me. The entire family then turned away from me for standing up for myself and for standing up to the abuse
I’m so sorry. I pray your cancer has been treated and you are in remission.
I suffer the same
But here is one problem with some of the children claiming to come from narcissistic mothers
Most seem to still need to grow up and they seem narsasitic too.
Its not all about children being loved and happy and if they assume that they are being Narsasitic too
Forgive
Forget and move on!
I love all the comments below. Valid points of view. I say, compassion your mother's "struggle," yes, but with a future zero-abuse tolerance policy firmly in place! Always protect your psyche and your heart!
Yes!
Wow! Hearing the comment about seeing your mother on one half as though she owes you but then to view her as just a woman who’s had her own battles gave me chills head to toe!! Such a wonderful point!!
Harriet, thank you for the respectful framework, the support for each daughter's right to her limits and her own position, and the perspective of asking questions to find honest ways to uncover information. This seems to afford both people choices. THAT seems really productive ground.
Great conversation. I loved the point that reacting in anger actually lets the other person off the hook because it ends the conversation without having challenged them.
This IS the problem. I think it is a boundary issue... the lack of mature respect, from one and/or both Adults in the relationship.
Parents owe their children lack of abuse
What if we do know lots about our mother’s childhood, and have tried to discuss that they have their own childhood and relational trauma, and it affects everything, including how they have treated us, and all they do is deny it? What if we have tried very hard to be compassionate, both daughters have reached out to come to understanding and mutual space and the mother just continues to not understand anything and makes everything about herself for our own wounding and won’t acknowledge that everyone has growth to do? She says she is 66 and she is at a place where she thinks everyone else needs to do the work and just be there for her?
@Krista Ross I have to agree with you. My own Mum is 71, I never bring up the past in a negative way, first because I don’t want to live in the past , I also don’t want to hurt her, but also because I know the aggressive reaction I will receive. My Mum however has no issue bringing up everything that has ever upset her, she blames everyone else including her children. She has never apologised for anything, every fight was caused by someone else, and she has never taken any responsibility for her life two divorces, lost friends and it was all done to her, she is the victim. The crazy thing is, if she was able to admit her role in something she might find it easier to forgive. She is the forever the victim
@@lisamurphycarlin Sounds so much like my mother. She takes no responsibility for anything. She also has a massive sense of entitlement to do what she wants, say what she wants, manipulate as much as she wants, and after a lifetime of being put on a pedestal simply for being a mother she sees no reason to change now.
My mother is like that - it's not mutual respect. I've just had to accept it & focus on my life
I recommend the book Mother-daughter puzzle. It looks at the relationship from wider perspective and gives a sense of relief, because you can then understand your mum, yourself and stop feeling responsible and guilt...
I would love to see how the speaker responds to this!!
Adult children who go no contact never get asked how they feel. All the sympathy goes to the mother! God forbid the adult child distance themself.
I know my mother had a difficult childhood, all of which she has projected onto me, telling me I am difficult to love among many other things. It is important for the mother to take responsibility for what is really a form of abuse, and realise that this has to stop at some point with someone. I have had a lot of mental health issues because of her constant belittling of me. This is the reason why I chose not to have children. If the mother is so broken by her past maybe she should consider working on herself before starting a family, or even consider not starting one at all! I have never been able to have an authentic conversation with my mother, and at 48 now, I feel most of my life has been wasted on walking on eggshells around her. You didn't choose to be in this life, your parents brought you forward. You are not here to suffer at the hands of them and their projections. Saying that we as the daughter must step back and have an all understanding of our mothers behaviour and not being able to voice our issues without being shot down in flames every time is technically keeping ourselves held in a place of being at fault always. Focus on yourself and get healthy mentally.
You are an adult now
Forgive her and let it go
Me and my mother both have mental health issues and I'm a teenager which makes it harder originally we were having issues and arguments almost every day but now she's trying to take care of herself better which I really think is helping she's doing a much much better job at working through tough moments and hiccups with me as time goes by we make deals compromises but most of all love everyday is a new day I really do wanna acknowledge my mother for trying harder and for realizing that we just gotta work through things it's been about 3-4 weeks since our last major fight since then we've had rocky moments but we work through them I wanna give her the credit she deserves for putting in effort so mothers and daughters reading this take care of yourself and work things through as they come along and your relationship will be 10x better I swear on everything I love
We the mothers are often villainized by media, medical/ psychiatric establishment and peers.. our authority to “ mother” to be responsible to look after our children has many competitors..
especially in the past 15 years where the TIk- Tok / social media culture .. take the parental space away from us.
My daughter started to be stroppy, disrespectful rebellious at age 13. Simple things like homework, cleaning her room became a nightmare. “ you can’t tell me what to do” ; go away!” That’s none of your business”
It was very hard to keep her from sabotaging her future.
There is no gratitude.. just resentment and anger.. and now ostracism.
Very painful!
I very much appreciate Dr. Harriet Lerner's mature wisdom on this subject. It's quite rare. Mother bashing has been going on for generations and I don't think it's done any good. Dr. Lerner's rationality can lead us to a fair and kind place. Tossing someone as monumental as our mother out of our lives in many instances could be like cutting our nose off to spite our face. We could be working on a groovy thing , the most significant relationship in our lives that could be a mutual source of love, comfort and growth. Remember, we all think that we are going to be better parents than our parents. Really? Love and forgiveness is almost always best.
The most significant relationship in our lives is with ourself not with our mother or either parent. If you think that it's with either parent, then you're just been patterned by them to believe that. If you grew up as a people pleaser, vying for everyone to like you and have their approval, or as the golden child of the family, then of course everything you said in your comment would ring true for you. I'd hope to god that many believe they can be better parents than their parents, otherwise humanity would be in for it.
The book Mother-daughter puzzle is amazing.
This was really helpful. Thank you for having this conversation and making it accessible.
What an important conversation...Thank you infinitely.
Thank you for this beautiful and calm conversation. It was really soothing just listening to both your voices.
It was, every word.
thank you so much for the dialogues. it gave me so much inspiration in treating the problems about mother-daughter relationship. thanks a lot!
Thank you for sharing, this was really interesting and tha conversation was very light and calm even though the topic is so difficult. I really enjoyed it!
Whew, this subject is HEAVY.
Very hard to have a difficult relationship with a mother- this relationship permeates ALL relationships that follow throughout your life . Speaking from firsthand experience
Thank you for this 💚
I feel like this conversation came to me at the right time. Thank you so much!!!! I hope to read some of Harriet's books in the future.
I’ll
Br
Beevoo
Thank you for sharing this, it's beautiful to know we can make a difference and hear about the process thru others people experiences
Took so much from this especially in regards to reactivity and holding boundaries. Thank you.
Much needed. Thank you.
Watching it 2 years later (after recording) and found this conversation double fascinating as your self are about to be a mother to a daughter so very soon. Love and knowing Heriet for long time already, was happy to find this conversation of you 2 appreciated voices. Family System therapy is a life changing for me, thank you for bringing it upfront here as well. 🙏❤️
Thank you so much for this beautiful interview.
In my view, it has been one of the deepest speech and analysis about mother and daughter relationship I have been able to hear so far. I also have a conflictive relationship with my Mum and I am sure that thanks to your insights I will be able to understand her better and possibly heal a little our relationship. Although I might not be able to do so, I am sure that this publication will help me in my capacity to manage other relationships. Again, thank you.
Kind regards.
I don’t understand why we must live because all relationships are so difficult. What a dissapointment life is.
The patriarchy makes it so. When you have the firm hand of men controlling more than half of the world’s population with pain and punishment, it creates an ugly world.
So true after ungodly relationship with my mother in my youth that ruined every aspect of my adult life I m supposed to be grateful for all the diners she made me as a adult but by then the damage was all done she hugged me recently ig meant nothing cause her abuse of me brought nothing but pain loss and violence in my life from M X abuser after her its so affected my health don't matter what reactions one feels you nearly cannot get over what they did to u
@@MartineReed Not helpful. Keep studying. You are off the mark here with WOKE ideology.
@@michellecox5543 Woke ideology? WTF are you talking about? Nothing “woke”about my comments. Get your nose out of Trump’s butt.
@@michellecox5543 Go ahead and make up your own meanings for words, but no one will understand you. Woke means to be aware of and actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
Such an important interview highligting important points and ideas and revealing some of the things yet to be addressee.
Thank you for your courage and sharing what you both have learned and experienced in your life...on your path to being YOU, more fully, and staying connected to family
We need both .
❤️ 💙
Thank you very much to both of you.
It’s really hard to have a convo with my mother when she is constantly evading the reality of the situation. It’s extremely hard for me. I’ll be patient but I’m in between a wall and a hard place
This was such a powerful and necessary conversation!
This was a great conversation. Well needed. Thanks
This was beautiful and so helpful....
Such a rich conversation. I could relate to some of the dynamics and took a lot from some of the wisdom shared - will need to listen back to take notes and action. Thank you for this.
I couldn’t love this any more. Thank you ❤. More of this please!
My mother is at end of her life and has had numerous surgeries I feel so destroyed from the damage she did to me her abusing me tearing my identity down from young age put me into a direct pit of further abuse with anorher male abuser I list everything over her and my x brainwashed my own kids to go against me blame me and see my normal role as a mother as wrong I'm totally understanding of her childhood n life experiences it does nothing to help me get peace due to the damage of destruction she caused to my life I couldn't enjoy a single area of my life due to her abuse of me and total inability to communicate with me in a normal way without adding I am out of my mind to suggest she was cause of all I lost
Moms sureare the WORST
NoWhybwould you s she saiwant a mom you cannot move, your livi do you know your dadnn independently on your own
Please CZcams The crappy childhood fairy 👁️
🙏
Speaking to the DIFFERENCES 👁️👁️
Really well done! Great conversation, full of tips and felt like it was over tea. Thanks for doing this, both of you.
Thank you so much!
Thank you ❤️
This is wonderful and very powerful. Thank you 💜
Thank you!❤❤❤
love her!!
This really assumes that there is a willingness to have an open line of communication coming from both parties. Not always practical. Some people just have no vested interest in their relationships and that is a reason for dysfunctional dynamics in the first place. It is always someone's responsibility for a dysfunctional relationship and someone's burden. I felt this conversation made many assumptions and failed to attribute certain areas of responsibility. Also, boundaries are a lost cause. They are usually set due to someone's offensive or violating behavior that then survive on the premise that the violating person will honor the new walls put in place. If the person could honor boundaries, they wouldn't have contributed to the events that inspired them in the first place.
Agreed. My mother has such a sense of entitlement and is so deeply manipulative, there is no such thing as an open and honest line of communication with her. Maybe Lerner's methods work on mothers who are decent people in fairly good mental and emotional health when the problem is more of a personality conflict between mother and daughter. However, with a mom who is a hardened abuser/manipulator, what Lerner is advocating here is completely irrelevant and just does not work. My mom sees any show of compassion or kindness as a weakness for her to manipulate, so I've been down that road with her already several times.
@@AWRose-kc4si I hear you. I think if someone hasn't been through this type of person in their own life, there's a real lack of understanding for formulating advice. I've found after years of trying to make it work or changing my approach, the best thing to do is to find whatever acceptance one can scrape up (for the sake of the daughter's wellbeing, nothing to do with making what the mother has done permissible or as a free pass) and limit or completely remove contact. It's about your own peace and internal environment at this point, not the mother's. She made her bed.
@ gudetama
The story of the “Fatso Family” demonstrates that she is not advocating letting people cross boundaries. She said that if the mother had continued to use that term then the daughter would have needed to do some form of reduced contact. Apparently some mothers can be “trained” to respect boundaries if they are communicated in a non-hostile manner.
So true. Boundaries are pointless in dealing with narcissists
Agree! My safety is an issue. My adult daughter is so abusive I am afraid of her. Her father (my ex) is now in a mental facility. I believe that mental illness is genetic.
This convo, so very precious.
what is a convo?
I suspect that most "difficult" mother/daughter relationships result from a mother who is at least emotionally abusive. As someone with an abusive, manipulative, malicious mother, nothing is more insulting and invalidating than hearing that the problem is really with me not having enough "compassion" for her, or "giving her too much power," or having "unfair expectations of her" that are based in oppressive "patriarchy," or that I need to "grow up." What I hear from this therapist is excuses. It is true that mothers are put on an unrealistic, idealized pedestal. However, I disagree with Lerner regarding how the mother pedestal actually works. In my experience, mom being on the pedestal does not lead to her being "blamed" unfairly. It gets her a giant pass from a society that can't come to terms with a mother as a violent abuser. Her pedestal position protects her from accountability. My mother was free to abuse sexually, physically, emotionally, and psychologically because the adults around her made these types of excuses for her. She was completely enabled and shielded from accountability. Therapists like Lerner are the reason I abandoned therapy. What I needed was support while I was cutting contact. The last thing I needed was a therapist telling me to set more boundaries to try to preserve the relationship with my abuser. Personally, I find her approach here to be almost patronizing to daughters, while promoting and protecting the narrative that enables abusive mothers.
Sorry you had that in your life. But yours is an unusual situation with your mom. Most moms are not like that.
@@chilloften Is it? I never looked at it that way, you could be right, thank you for pointing out another way of looking at it. It was never my intention to be abusive.
@@bluej6800 OMG no, you are not being abusive in any way. I’m so sorry! I’m glad you responded because this comment was to be on another response. I’m going to delete it honey. Your mother sounds as evil as a devil. I’m sorry you were put thru that. We were children.
I have been on both sides of the court and it is sad all the way around. But what is more troubling is that as soon as there is a therapist who steps forward to humanize a mother-not an abusive mother-but rather mothers who love their children and loved being a parent, the wounded children in the audience are triggered. I have been there. And I get it. Please get therapy for your legitimate feelings. It helps.
But let’s allow a safe space for all conscientious mothers to be heard. I applaud these rare therapists who come forward to speak out for moms.
Mothers are an easy target, sometimes with good reason-other times the kid/ young adult just doesn’t “like” the parent and runs them down. And because the parent adores the child, the hurtful behavior continues unchecked.
After dealing with my own grown daughter, I realized that judging my own mom is not ok. If I have a complaint about my mom’s parenting and/or an interaction that involved me, then I expect my mother to listen and accept responsibility. But hating on one’s mother is NOT cool and it happens far too often when the child is allowed free rein. Let these mothers have a safe space in which to speak out.
@@truth-alwayswins Of course. Not all mothers are outright, boldly abusive. However, I find it implausible that adults would shut out a parent simply because they "don't like" or "hate" that parent for no reason. That just is not how it works in my observations of reality. I know it's triggering for some mothers--your response demonstrates that clearly--but dig a little deeper and you'll usually find the mother who is in a strained relationship with her children to be a major contributor. Perhaps she is manipulative, disapproving, critical, judgemental, self-centered. Maybe part of the problem is the mother's own unresolved trauma. But it takes two to work on a relationship. I realize that as a parent, I am responsible for the relationship I have with my child. Alot of mothers out there want all of the benefits of motherhood without any real accountability or responsibility, and without reciprocal effort. If you think you are entitled to a relationship with your kids without having to work on yourself.....you will be disappointed.
so informative, thank you.
They say that sally fields and julia roberts in steel magnolias would have ended up estranged but Shelby died.
How does one learn to ask good questions? It seems to be a critical skill that can open many doors. Thank you!
What a wonderful therapist!!!
I reached out in voice first then letter to express my feelings and my compassion to what she has shared with us as her story. Rather than to accept my perspective- she was greatly pained by it. I then wrote an apology for the words with the hope for her responsibility in my pain. I tried after a brief break to reduce our physical connection up until my Dad’s passing. Al my brothers particularly older brother is see is how I hurt her without considering my side of the conversation. I have listened continuously to Dr Ramani to understand the deeper level - victim narcissistic & emotional neglect. I never called her on this just took in the information. Mom doesn’t want a reconciling at a new adult level
I never had the chance to ask the questions
I learned at 51 that I am High Functioning Autistic and needed more than she could accept or give.
I do have curiosity as to why my mother is so defensive but she will not go anywhere NEAR a conversation. Long before the internet even existed and before i had any access to informative material, I would very tentatively try to give the tiniest bit of feedback to my mum when she was hurtful by couching it in compliments and trying to ask questions (that'd help me understand where she was coming from) but it never worked! She would ''see through'' my attempts to connect and she would instantly martyr up and react really indignantly and stonewall me and silence me. I did used to get ''baited'' and after months of being stonewalled, I'd lose control and talk with high intensity at her. I have to give up. I have to stop trying. Maybe not forever but at this point I can say nothing. She is just so defensive. I must respect her right to have hurt me. The. End.
Yes, this IS what I am having to recognize as we speak! Good point. It is very sad for me to Have/Need to do & go through this. But, Respect is a two-way street, especially so with adults.
I feel when reading some comments here, that some listeners may have missed some of the vital context of this conversation!
Remaining angry, aggressive and casting blame on your mothers by iterating it as is written.
You’ve missed the lesson wherein, the dialogue we could have created; or the approach to fearing confrontation has left the room here … Too much anger and blame in you to move on in life without trashing Her .. the lesson … listen again and understand the mothering stereotypes of the generation they grew up with . The dynamic influences their parenting had on them as young Mothers. I’m a mum , have had to cross that divide with my own (now 30 yo daughter) . Moving forward as a mum and trashing your Mum to your children and living with this sense of entitlement over your anger … 😢 try to learn to heal please . Your toxicity will easily rub off on your children. It may not be how your children react to you! It may well be how they react and conduct themselves with difficult friendships or partners in their future lives.. Remain calm, breathe.
This conversation was excellent fodder for me! So Thankyou Shey❤❤. Recommended by my Psychotherapist in Australia; Who like Ms Lerner experienced a caustic & denigrating mum in her life. Teach as they do and heal 🙏
A valuable tool in conquering parenthood; relatable to Fathers too. ☮️💟✝️
(FACTS OVA FEELINGS). The Relationship with hOUR Children is Meant to Trigger Unsolved Wounds and Suppressed Memories and Feelings from hOUR Own Childhood so that Wee may Intergate those facture aspects to being and becoome moor whole
Could it be that mothers have taken care of daughters that turn out to be the exact opposite of what the mother knows can be accomplished...some daughters are making irresponsible decisions despite the guidance from their mothers, intentionally ignoring the mother's advice causing them to have to move back home with their children and baggage...if a mother did her all to be responsible for her family why are daughters not following suit, at least this is my situation
This right here....💯💯💯💯💯💯
My mother is not a narcissist, in fact, she suffers from low self-esteem to this day at the age of 78 (I am 44). My mother hit me twice in my life, once when I was 5 years old and I cut myself with my father's razor and another time when I smoked marijuana at 14 years old and she beat me with a belt until I drew blood. of my thighs, I was covered in bruises and very traumatized, as it was not customary to be violent even with me and my brothers (me being the middle child) while screaming madly that I was going to be admitted to a rehabilitation clinic for drug addicts and calling me a prostitute, said I was going to start prostituting myself to get drugs (I swear I just used sex, but she was terrified of the possibility of me becoming a drug addict and nowadays I understand her fear, but I can't forgive her violent reaction and words) offended me with the dirtiest names imaginable and I spent a year without receiving money from my parents for anything, as I never bought drugs in my life, I just smoked marijuana with friends at school, they took it, not me. Other times as a child, she screamed that she hated me, while arguing with my drunken father (deep down with hatred for her own choice of husband) and when I was 21 years old, she threw me out of the house because I complained that She dirty the kitchen floor that I had cleaned, like I used to do every day to clean up my father's mess.
My father: lawyer, blind, alcoholic, cheated on my mother even though he was blind (a very handsome and inteligent man who became completely blind due to a surgical error) with many women. My mother: bitter, smoker, civil servant in a school office, worked 8 hours a day; We had a comfortable material life and my mother was not physically affectionate, we only touched each other on Mother's Day, mine and her birthday and Christmas and New Year. I'm talking about actually touching it, with your hands. She doesn't touch any of her children!!!!! She's cold, but she's generally kind to everyone, the strangest person I know. I think she was beaten a lot in her childhood... so I try to understand and forgive her. I am from Brazil... Thank you for this video e for whomever read my comment until here! I hope you (we) all heal from our traumas! 💖
I find the phrasing "we can't change our mothers" to be rooted in the patriarchy FILTER that says -there IS something "wrong" with her. Ugh. Of course she can't be OK the way she is!!! Ugh. EVERYONE has positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses., and yet, we focus on mothers negatives-she must be changed, fixed-signaling she is FLAWED only. Ugh
Sad.. the layers of patriarchy and misogyny run deep. We struggle to find a path OUT and struggle in words, too. Sad
The layers of oppression that womyn and mothers endured, it needs to be highlighted that it is a testiment to HER that SHE MANAGED TO LIVE.
These are deeply painful things that go into one's heart and her identity, by nature and what is forced on her , programmed in her psychy
And it IS our nature, as communal creatures to stay in tribes.
Yet, not HER, she is too much and not enough
#DownWithPatriarchy #downwithmisogyny #downwithoppression #upwithincludingHER, too
I'm the mother in my situation. And if you asked my daughter I've been a terrible mean and vindictive mother. But that was never my intention and I feel so lost as to where to go from here. My daughter views me in an absolutely terrible light. Says I want to be her friend and not her mother and that we don't even have a mother daughter type of relationship because I want to be her friend.. and while I'd agree I that we are friendly. So are my mother and I and we have always leaned on each other. Something my daughter quite clearly rejects.
I wish I could say I'm going to send this to her and try to work on things, but I think she will just reject me. It feels like she wants to reject me no matter what. I do get angry and I do slam things down and slam doors and maybe even accidentally break things but those moments are usually in very heated situations and I think I do those things to assert myself and maybe even try to display some sort of dominance. It's not something that is thought out or intentional. I've just been thinking about all the whys lately. And she's a mom now too and she counts on me for far more than I think she should. I'm going through a lot emotionally myself as I walk my own journey. And the pressure of being as involved daily is a lot. And I find myself crying myself to sleep most nights. I've been a single mother most of my children's lives and we did leave a very toxic and hostile if not violent relationship with her father. And I feel like she blames me a lot for that.. I'm just struggling to be a person in the world, and have any shred of confidence and her total disapproval of anything I say or do feels very much like a shunning from the only family I really have. And I feel very hurt and isolated. I don't really want to lose my daughter before I die.. and I don't want to lose contact with her boys who I babysit to some degree if not all day every day just because she's so mad at me.
I wish I knew what a normal mother daughter relationship looked like so I could give it to her.. but I'm just me, that's all I can offer anyone.. but I'll love her until I die.. 💔
The mother also needs to be able to say what she can and cannot DO.
Many , if not all the womyn in my generation group DON'T
And are deeply programmed to NOT
At her expense.
Yet, instead of reaching for understanding and a win-win
We frame it
" mom, it wont work for me for you to come live with me"
In a system that TOOK away HER right to create wealth and security
Put HER in a home..not with family...because it is "hard"
This is all messed up.
My goodness, the layers of oppression just keep on punching down on HER.
LOVE reaches
LOVE includes
LOVE works things out
Even in nature you see gaggles, and heards
Horses support each other
A tribe in South Africa...of womyn..set up their own village to support only womyn. They understood patriarchy, misogyny, oppression. They understood SHE had suffered ENOUGH and needed a tribe, security, safety, support, food etc.
They were of all ages and stages
They reached to support each other
Not be another person to abandon her and refect unworth.
Yup, it is a challenge for them
Of course
Just as it was a huge challenge for mom to raise children in patriarchy
Many rose to the occasion
Oppression is damaging
Life threatening
Our nature needs to reflect worth, to matter , to thrive.
Fail- to -thrive babies, show us this
The parent is emotional gone, and can't refect worth to the baby
It dies slowly from not mattering
Stops eating
Patriarchy has reflected this brushing womyn aside - not being of value. Not mattering.
Only using them when they can give something like sex or service
Compromising her security ugh
Oh, the layers of patriarchy that keep hammering HER
And when HER body is now shutting down from age
Wild!!!
Sad
my mom is my biggest hater, she's constantly made me feel like shit, she picks apart my appearance, criticizes what I wear, criticizes what I eat...how is she not tired of being that way.
Do yourself a huge favor and try to go no contact (or have very limited contact). You don’t want to be in your 50’s+ and still dealing with their nasty BS. (ask me how I know) 😉
I really enjoyed this. I'm a little disappointed however that the burden of responsibility lies heavily on the daughter to do the work.
30 years after the fact... I'm angry with my Mom for giving up on my Dad (recently deceased), and taking the advice of a manipulative, selfish 16 year old (me), to leave him and get a divorce, then remarrying 10 years later, to a man who, even now, doesn't consider me family.
maybe you're mad at yourself and projecting that anger and blame to mom?
@@fpalisse Maybe. Good analysis.
Why be mad at her? Especially if you manipulated her? Also you are an adult now move on, if your step father doesn’t accept you, who cares? He’s just your moms husband not your father.
Maybe you should be mad at the fact that a grown woman (your mother) seemingly couldn't make her own decisions as an adult and put you as a child (at 16) in the position of power where it should not have been.
@@es8117 Yes. I'm mad about that.
It's difficult being one of two daughters and having a mother who treats us very different. I love my mother but I can't forgive her for buying a summerhouse to my sister and leave me with nothing. Especially since I am the one who cares about showing my mother love by being with her on Christmas and mothers day, which my sister would never.
I have also noticed that most , if not all examples,, are about the adult daughter not getting the proper response and treated "badly" here. Do you see the one sidedness of this?
Do you notice that we leave out what the Mother examples of going to adult children and being met with insensitivity, demands, attacks etc ?
How do womyn have ANY chance in this system to be seen as humans and met with humanity ?
My mother has a son who came first. Then 2 years later came twin daughters. Four years later I was brought in to the family. My mother, I saw that changed , I understand life. She wasn't a bad mom. But when years went on. My brother was to being out father . when my father couldn't be there. He was a firefighter. He was gone every other day and night, Scott had to be the man of the house, I'm the youngest and I offen thought why are you sitting in my father's chair.
Here is the Development and Evaluation of the Adult Daughter-Mother Relationship Questionnaire (ADMRQ)
NOTICE how one sided this is! And it is focused on the MOTHER...father get's a PASS, once again. ugh.
NOTICE how the adult children get a pass.
NOTICE how patriarchy/misogyny/oppression once again shows up , even in psychology, even in the leaders in the field that we go to for understanding and help.
NOTICE how deep this goes, and how hopeless it can feel in something as IMPORTANT as a healthy mother and adult children relationship.
NOTICE that this IS what is causing this disconnection and discourse. The FILTER is warped.
M is for MOTHER
See the MOTHER is being evaluated.
Why?
She must be the ONLY PROBLEM, right?
NO
Change D for Daughter or S for Son
Because Mother's also struggle deeply in these relationships. Of course they do. They are just supposed to put up and shut up. Be caregivers, not care receivers.
Mothers/womyn are to be self sacrificing and self-less. Put others first. Don't make others uncomfortable by bringing up HER needs, wants, hurts, anger, frustration, dreams.
And isn't it INTERESTING that these VERY same things Adult children are complaining about in HER are what was IMPOSED, PROGRAMMED, DEMANDED ,THREATENED in HER to DO !!!!
Can we say "scapegoat" ? Yes, we can.
Because womyn are the scapegoats in patriarchy for MEN to MATTER.
SHOCKING!!!! But I have studied this long enough to understand it.
It is SAD...deeply sad, because it is damaging deeply important relationships.
My daughter 20 yo has been verbally abusing to me (I am 60 years old) for past 2-3 yrs.😪
I have been an excellent mother. She will explode like a boom and I am tired.
My why to deal with this now is to tell her I will go my way. I am very sad.
😪
Our daughter won't speak to either of us. I have offered to pay for therapy. My offer was rejected.
I see too many women, adult women blaming their mothers for all sorts of things.
They accuse their mother of being narsasitic but it seems therapists are creating these victims of their mothers.
As an adult its time to forgive, let it go and move on.
Stop blaming your mother for issues you have as an adult.
Take responsibility for your own emotional health and stop blaming her.
She did the best she could
Even if she was a drug addict, she did the best she could.
I mean look at Tupac, he wrote a song about his crackhead mom.
Respect to all Moms out there.
I know it may be hard to believe but some daughters are impossible to raise well cause girls are Hard!.
My boy was a pleasure to raise
My daughter, a living hell.
So dont assume all bratty daughters have a narsasitic hateful mom🙂
This story of the mom coming with complaints of her father..triangle, as it is framed .
Speaks to her mom living in patriarchy and the lack of understanding of the deep programming AND the well documented fear of being beaten, raped and killed for womyn speaking up to their husbands
Leaving HER once again to be blamed for reaching to alleviate oppression and the need for support, from someone she can trust.
Expecting HER to go to someone else who may NOT have power or skill for help
Outside family
Slaves had each other to share their oppression with and get support
My goodness...
The abanondment and expectations put on this mother are punshing to hear.
These filters and frames miss the mark for HER and humanity, but of course
We are marinated in patriarchy .
And
Some points were jewels
That is how we shift out
One piece of the puzzle
Added to another , by another , who has revealed that other part
And always, on the backs of womyn..ugh
SHE pays the price for reaching for equality
Of course, the daughter COULD HAVE chosen the path of
Standing with her mom... and bringing in education around patriarchy and misigyny to the dad...a united front...to help the FAMILY shift
We get sick in family
We heal in family
Of course
Never is the dad /man expected to be addressed together or go to counseling
Yet, as Dr Jackson Katz lays out, it is the MEN that is needed to step up to make this shift out of patriarchy
They have the POWER and privilege and NOT expected to do the work or take accountability for the oppression they weild.
Yet, we hammer HER at every stage
Expect HER to keep doing the heavy lifting in a world not built for HER
Dr Valerie Rein.. Patriarchy Stress Disorder... revealed in her studies:
It is not HER!!!!!!
It is the system.
But we keep on SCAPEGOATING HER.
PATRIARCHY requires it
It is the only safe path for us, to: blame HER
Frame HER
Filter HER through that old lens that has her do the work
Pay the price
Or else
Break from her
Which IS abanonment
Rejection
Blackmail
We just say it in a way that gaslights this choice
So we feel "better"
At her expense
She can't jump out of programming easily, especially in her elder years
She can take steps...when supported.
zero interest in having that cruel, abusive, vile narcissist in my life ever again.
Why everyone assume if your child has not contact with the mother she must done something or abuse their children. Let me be clear abuse children it’s a crime, if your mother said you have to be home at 10 that’s not abuse. So all the people that accused others of abuse should be proof in a court of law. If you accused someone of stolen jewelry it has to be evidence.
Most people generalize the expression of being abused it’s a big bucket in which everything falls.
We live in a narcissist society in which blaming others for ours mistakes it’s becoming a norm. Deep down you feel inappropriate, not fulfill life. I recommend you to try to be the best you can be in life, to be compassionate and generous. To take care of you and build that person that you wish to be and not the looser and victim that you are becoming. Then and only then you realize that people are good and nobody it’s up to get you. Stop seeing yourself like a victim, you are not.
After looking at this list MORE, it shows the misogyny we have lived in and how it is damaging humans and relationships; important relationships.
This list was done by a professional in the psychology field, that had been in the field for a LONG TIME.
When one looks at this LIST, that is filled out to help understand the challenges the Therapist faces when a Mother and her Adult Daughter comes in for help, this list shows something I deeply doubt is "explained" to help BOTH understand part of the ROOT of the disconnection they are feeling and struggling with.
Nature vs Nurture
OR Nature AND Nurture, would be more accurate.
A lion/lioness learns to BE a lion /lioness by BEING with and LIVING with their "parents" or "parent".
EACH generation of lion/lioness's learn to BE who they are from the generation before them, in MANY DEEP ways.
The MOST "learning", humans have is in the first 3 years of life.
IF we know this, as professionals in the field, or even human beings knowing this, we can look at this list below and SEE that OF COURSE a child WILL be 'deeply' influenced by their parent (in this case the MOTHER IS TARGETED and "blamed"...filter of 'blame'...focus on what is 'wrong")
Thus, knowing we ALL learn, like any animal, in any family, from the parent/parents, then OF course we are DEEPLY influenced by our parent/parents.
The NEXT 'logical" step to take in understanding why Adult Daughters ( or son's) struggle with things on THIS list, that are deemed important to question....and if scores are not IDEAL...for that Adult Child and how they "want to be" as a grown person,
or
the quality of the relationship between parent ( in this case the TARGETED MOTHER) and adult children
is to look at the SYSTEM we LIVE in that has done these things to WOMYN.
NOT looking at the "product" of the system for "blame" or even answers that will have IMPACT or the really important connector which is" understanding".
That this IS NOT FRONT and CENTER in this....does a HUGE disservice to MOTHERs....WOMYN...and Adult Children and their deeply important relationship with parent/parents....and finding ANY PATH to connection, health or healing.
And this is from a LEADER in the field of Psychology , a field that was born in this SAME SYSTEM.
It is the SYSTEM that is causing these damages...and yet, when patriarchy/misogyny/oppression is brought up...PEOPLE RISE UP in ANGER and OUTRAGE to shut this discussion DOWN.
People RAISED and PROGRAMMED in this system of patriarchy are the ones that rise up to defend it, making shifting out of the actual "problem" mired in muck.
This is cult behaviour.
So damaging to humans and relationships.
KNOWING is the FIRST STEP OUT.
Love & Light & Reaching to shift out of this old system.
You can know the history and still be hurt, which interferes with the relationship
🙏👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿🙏
My teen hates me. It’s awful.
What about ADULT daughters wanting wanting their mothers to be the kind of mother THEY envision them to be?
Some times having unrealistic expectations of their mothers 👁️
My therapist told me, “you’re not a child anymore, you’re an adult.” Consequently you need to aim for a different type of relationship with your mother, one thats adult/adult, not child/parent. This shift in perspective really had a positive impact on me.
Kind of gaslighty if your mom is an actual narcissist. Not every bad behavior can be blamed on the patriarchy.
I agree. This conversation is only helpful if both mother and daughter can listen, be open minded, and have compassion. I feel like this conversation is just “poor moms, the whole world is against them!”
I never treated my mother disrespect her. My mother is my rock and we always had a great mother daughter relateship
Yes I feel angry at my mother, but it was not her fault she was co-dependent. So then do I blame my father? How about Mom's mother? No, not her mother's fault, how about her mother's mother? And on it goes. So I can't be angry at my Mom for her failings.
Thank you for your comment. This is how I viewed my relationship with my mom. I was with her until the end of her life. I have no regrets and hold no anger towards her. All I do is miss her greatly.
To the interviewer, learn to listen, heather at the beginning said there are few steps to take at the very beginning and you instead of saying "what are the steps" you came with your own blabla and took the conversation in other direction.
It sounds like Harriet Lerner expects the daughter to be the mother.
Why not go to therapy and Jesus?!
Prayer and worship has helped me; therapy and medication for depression has helped me. When I have met Christians that demean therapy and medication , I distance from them bc they have never suffered from a mental illness. All of my wonderful, loving pastors have encouraged me to go to the Dr for my brain issues. They have said it’s no different from going to the doctor if I were diabetic. Those kind of Christians that do not understand mental illness are very simplistic about life and I often wonder what they will do when they get Parkinson’s or some other brain illness. God has blessed us with good doctors!!! Use them!!!
Btw, my husband is a doctor! These types of Christians are very scary to me!!
This does not apply to real NMs.
Once i heard patriachy i had to skip.
Im to the point i hate my daughter an she hates me i dont want nothing to do with her ive tired for years an tolerated her bull shit I feel relieved that I don't even consider her my child any longer she looks at the family she was born into and hates not only me but all of us
😳😵💫
I agree with you whole heartedly cause what you said sounds like me, & the other sounds just like my daughter, but I don't hate her but just tired of all the bullshit from her
That will not work with some mothers.
Children learn what they live. My adult children (2)grew seeing their father abuse and belittle me. They grew up to do the same. I told them I would tolerate their abuse and walked away. They live near me me, but I have had no relationship with them for twenty years. Never will.
The interviewer makes creepy noises while Ms.lerner speaks.
It is important that adult children speak their truths...and say what they think and feel, and see things differently
And
It is equally important mothers DO THE SAME and are allowed, supported, and not attacked
Again, SHE is left out
Girls lose their authentic voice by 11 because of-The SYSTEM of patriarchy!!!!
Mom lost her authentic voice also at 11
Right!!
The layers of patriarchy run deep.
BOTH, ALL sides need to be ALLOWED.
She, mom, has NOT been allowed for decades and generation's
She WILL NEED to actually use texting and voice message to do it-Because of the many traumas she has endured in her life when she tried. Face to face is too much. Baby steps are needed. The body language and safety issues are some of the reasons,
And
That she would struggle deeply to say it to her beloved children
It would be too triggering
Plus, she would need practice. She won't get it right/perfect
Because of these layers
And no path
As we see here, too
We are ALL just learning to break this oppressive programming in our system of thousands of years
Lowkey I wish we could only listen to the actual therapist. The young chick sounds like she doesn’t even pay attention when the actual therapist is talking. So annoying
My daughter is emotionally abuse and blames everyone else for her behavior. Nothing I ever did was good enough for her. I am just a terrible person. My daughter believes that she is entitled to treat me and our family is toxic. She is lies even when sh dosn't have to. She goes to our friends and tells them unhurried do I look back to everyone in my life. I finally had to detach my emotion from blaming myself and can to terms that I no longer care what she wants to believe in the world she jas dedicated to live in her life. I can fix her and tried so hard to make her life Good and always supported her with her dreams. I am confused because she lives n another version of the our family. She has never been accountable for her actions. I tried everything counseling she refused to to to be responsible for anything. She was jealous of her baby brother and would bet up any girlfriend just because she could. Started abusing drugs at 12 years old.
I can't have a relationship with her, because I believe that she could take my life
😢 sounds like your daughter is a sociopath. Not your fault. Listen to your intuition and stay safe.
It is not hard to be a mother, it's not hard to love your daughter. This video gives bad people excuses. to act badly.
Mother Blaming Again!! It seems to me that wounded daughters likely turn to this video, because thy only want to hear (however subtle) that the relationship problem is their mother's fault.
For once I would like to read comments or hear a speaker admit that perhaps there were times that themselves treated their parent(s) horribly.
Did any of you you listen to the video closely? Even, Harriet Lerner, had deep issues with her very own Mother, and went on to invalidate and dismiss the older woman's criticism of her dad. Smart, Harriet had ZERO interesting understanding her Mother's point of view but some how can offer thousands of women a perspective onMother-Daughter relationships. SMH!!