The Group B Rally Cars Lost To Time | Part 1
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- čas přidán 28. 02. 2023
- Group B rallying is well-known for cars like the fire-spitting Delta S4 and pioneering Audi Quattro, but what about the cars that never got the chance to compete on the world stage? Whether they were cancelled because of budgetary concerns, competitiveness, or simply being too late to the party, this is the story of the unraced Group B prototypes.
Part 1 (this video) covers front-engined cars, while Part 2 will cover mid- and rear-engined ones. Enjoy!
This video is under Fair Use:
Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act in 1976; Allowance is made for "Fair Use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favour of fair use. All rights and credit go directly to its rightful owners. No copyright infringement intended. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
![The Crash That Ended Group B- The Story of the 1986 Tour de Corse [V2.0]](/img/n.gif)
The Opel Manta C959 PSC was a car I owned from 1991 to 2005. It is not a genuine 400. In 1997 I modified it from a standard GTE coupé to what you now see. C20XE, discs all round, 75% LSD, tarmac suspension, 2.5 turn steering rack and the body kit. All this work was done in the prototype workshop of Massey Ferguson. I stripped it to a bare shell and put it all back together. There were quite a few tractor parts incorporated. On their scales it weighed 960 Kg and put out 175 BHP with 170 ft/lb of torque. Not a bad drive. I was 27 at the time and a software engineer with no engineering qualifications and just a good understanding of physics. I must have done a good job as the car is still around at shows today. Thanks for the video.
The file name does state it's a replica, I used the photo as it was well framed and good quality. I assumed no-one could tell it was a replica - certainly didn't expect the former owner in the comments! 😄
That's very interesting about the tractor parts, definitely not what one would expect from a sports car!
Could see your understanding of physics of this.. but no body would see this then.. 😕
Genuine Manta and Ascona 400s had 5 stud wheels, easiest thing to look out for. Excellent history from the previous owner and builder 👍
@@hoggmotorsport I'll keep that in mind!
@@studio-2
Massey Ferguson were involved in the development of the Jenson interceptor FF. The AWD components and gearbox.
The First 4WD production road car built in Britain.
The FF badge stands for Ferguson formula.
M.F also developed the coventry climax that Stirling Moss raced.
Lamborgini was a Tractor builder (still is) before he decided to prove Ferrari was building mechanically flawed cars and prove it by building better cars such as the technically advanced for its time, Muira.
Porsche also built tractors.
Those cars still look so futuristic. 80s cars are the best, especially Group B and S, aswell as those turbo charged Group 5 touring cars. Pure love.
The engine in the Lancer 2000 turbo is the 4G63. That is the start on the 4G63 engine family the Lancer/Starion having the 4G63 SOHC version.
The M-Sport tour if they still do it is awesome they have a RS1700T, great tour
I dont think the legendary Status of Group B will ever be surpassed. Its just absurd thinking someone could Rally a Rallycar with huge turbolag and 500+hp with very little safety whatsoever through forests or crowds of people. its just madness.
Yes, even if the WRC cars got faster within 5 years of its cancellation, the Group B cars were likely some of the hardest race cars to drive - up there with Group C and Group 5!
I somewhat disagree. Group B is legendary because it was dangerous and the machines were outrageous. The racing itself, however, wasn't that great. The cars themselves didn't sound very good (with the exception of the Audi and MG) and despite what people think, they weren't that spectacular to watch. Hairpin bends were downright comical as their AWD systems didn't allow them to use their handbrakes, so they went around at walking speed and sometimes had to reverse to make it
@davidvitan3590 you are correct about that. I will say that it's still mind blowing. For the time period. The cars had a lot of power and the safety wasn't great. Can you imagine going wide open in any group b car. The drivers had giant balls. Look at Bettigas 037 or what was left of cresto and henris s4 ari almost died in the 205 Walter and stig and others were lucky. The older guys treated the group b cars with more respect and stayed alive. Meanwhile henri just pushed the s4 until the accident. He was winning stages minutes faster than others sometimes. If only he had slowed down just a little and paced better. Idk R.I.P All in rally and spectators.
Mega video, cheers for making it.
Hopefully it inspires others to pass on their knowledge of the Group B era.
Great channel only found today and I'm glad that I have looking forward to seeing more
I'm happy that you're getting more exposure.
Can't wait for part two, best of luck with your channel.
Here before the video hits 50K views.
Great video, enjoyed it a lot.
Even learned about Group B car projects that I was never aware of.
Very interesting, look forward to the next part
This is a great video with so much early 80's rally cars I've never seen before. Lots of research went into this video & I can't for the follow up !
5:58 I’m not sure about the most “famous” use of the PRV V6, but arguably the most successful motorsport variant of the PRV V6 design, was the one used in the Alfa Romeo 155 V6 DTM car in the 1990s.
Consider me shocked, I never knew the DTM 155s used PRV V6s!
@@studio-2 in the first few years they used the 60 degree V6 Alfa Romeo “Busso” engine in DTM, but as power outputs got higher, the limited area between the V6 cylinder heads did not allow for the optimum induction system. Because the Alfa was produced by a company known as Alfa-Lancia Industriale and the Lancia Thema had used a PRV derived V6, this allowed Alfa Romeo to use a 90 degree V6 in the race car.
There are some videos around where they interviewed the former technical director of Alfa Corse, Sergio Limone, who had previously worked on the Lancia rally program, including the 037 and the Delta Integrale. He goes into some detail on the 155 V6 engine development as well as the Lancia rally cars.
Under DTM rules, the race engine had to be based on the internal dimensions of a production engine in the car makers range of production cars, e.g. same V angle and bore spacing, but most likely the engine included few, if any original PRV V6 parts.
You just earned a subscriber with this. That is a great and very punctual summary.
Huge amount of knowledge. Amazing. Liked, subscribed. I hope your channel will grow.
This is a great video. Thanks a bunch!
Great video, thoroughly enjoyed. Didn't know of about half these cars so I think you for this video!
Stumbled upon your channel a few weeks ago looking at group c prototypes. Now I'm subscribed, such an amazing chanel well spoken and very informative, top guy 👌
This was brilliant!…I was just talking to a friend about group b cars, he had never heard of them, I’m in California, he was fascinated, I will send him this video, btw you should be on Top Gear, Brilliant! 👏🏻😎🏁
Great video. Wish there were more videos like this. Every video on group B cars is the same thing usually.
Excellent video, well researched. Unlike so many other young CZcamsrs that have not been alive at the time and just make stuff up or repeat hearsay
This is great stuff. I've always had a thing for competition prototypes and concept cars and have quite a collection of books and literature on them. I think it stemmed from watching Irish rallycross drivers testing a twin-turbo Metro 6R4 at an aerodrome beside my house when I was a kid. Some of the ideas they had were absolutely insane
Your channel is grossly under rated. Thank you!!
That's amazing to hear, thanks. Glad you enjoyed it!
@@studio-2 well thought out and well presented. I truly appreciate your time and effort.
❤
These things were 8-900kg stripped out and we're producing 400bhp with oodles of torque.. That's like a car with 800bhp today.. Obviously the electronics didn't exist back then for traction, it was all mechanically derived.. Just raw talent, whilst amazing, it's still akin to strapping yourself to a TNT rocket and hoping for the best whilst floating around the stages..
Even today 500bhp is ample power with electronics to challenge. and that's is with all the electronic bells and whistles..
Group B, back in the day was clearly getting far too powerful and fast for what could surround the power plant and give it justice or indeed, remotely safe..
I'd still love to own a Delta S4, if for no other reason than to scare the shite out of me.! 😂
Thank you for pointing out that there was a planned Group B circuit racing series.I always cringe if people do this wrong and connect, f.e. the Ferrari 288 GTO to rallying. It was supposed to be a Group B circuit racer as the 288 GTO Evoluzione proves. They made 6 of these clearly circuit focused racers. For actual rallying Ferrari and Michelotto worked on the 308 GT/M.
Yes, the GT/M will be in Part 2. It's a shame Group B circuit racing never took off, some of the cars planned to compete were incredible
@@studio-2 I agree 100%. These circuit monsters would have been absolutely awesome. From my point of view it would have been either a Group 5 2.0 or a proto-GT1 with a lot of manufacturer entries. An E2-Sh (FIA Hillclimb silhouette rules) circuit series would certainly be interesting too.
Isn't there a video of a group b ferrari driving in monte or corse
Probably also because Ferraris were used for rallying without much success.
I like mantas they still look cool 😎 shame there is not many left , I always wanted a gte in red
While I prefer the Capri to the Manta, the Manta is one of the few cars that looks good in ANY colour
@@studio-2 apart from gold
Wow that 305 looks amazing,never seen that before.good vid👍🏻
I love watching these with my nephew.
Great video! Had no idea about the Mk3 Escort getting the group b treatment. Looks like I know what I'm building once I'm done with the XR4TI.
great video! while most kids were dreaming of lambos and ferraris, i was dreaming of the stratos, and celica rally cars
11:30 The "private owner" to whom you refer was THE AWESOME John Welch! 🤘💪👏
Wasn't the shell for the Ford RS1700 the Gartrac version that Schance and Welch used for their very well developed escorts? Talking of Rallycross, I seem to remember Jean-Luc Pailler running the Citroen BX Group B machine in the ERC
Your channel is very good 👍🏻 it will take of like a rocket 🏁
I get that impression too.
Great video. The ralli art starion was beautiful.
Agreed, while I prefer the regular Starion, the 4WD version is far more distinctive - the regular car blends in with the 944, RX-7 FC, and all the other 80s pop-up headlight coupes!
Super reportage 👍
Definitely looking forward to part two.
I kinda regret not buying the escort mk3 for sale a couple years ago just opposite the street.
It was only €900 back then but I didn't have my license yet and I wanted to buy a Golf MK 1 or 2.
(And got a mk2 soon after getting my license, still have it, happily)
I just don't like normally Ford's but that escort Mk3 has such a greatly styled hatch body.
Edit: Subbed 👍 and I think this channel will explode fast!
Mk2 golf gti best hot hatch from the 80,s
Saw the first 2 cars.
Instantly subbed
Xtrac do every form of motorsport now and hyper cars I should I know I work there, thanks for the mention, really good video 👍
Initially, Group S would have been basically Group B on even looser rules, allowing for even crazier cars under bespoke rally prototype rules. The 300hp limit you mention around 11:05 was implemented in a revision of Group S rules after the (for both) fatal crash of Toivonen and Cresto. Along with strict aero and material regulations.
Favourite group B car?
Yes.
I’m glad you shed some light on the Astra that John Welch would later use in British Rally Cross. Those clips of it spitting flames and fending off 6R4’s are amazing.
Agreed, late 80s/early 90s Britih rallycross was wild - my fav was always the Will Gollop's P&O Cruises-sponsored Metro 6R4 in the blue/yellow/red livery
V.well researched 👍
Always loved Group B cars in Rallycross. The Ford RS200 was so great looking and was quite the winner among the different GroupB cars.
There is a channel here on yt that shows the old 1980-90s Rallycross races throughout Europe that where broadcast on tv. What a blast Brands Hatch and Lydden looked like they'd have been to drive. Makes me wish I did my racing in Europe instead of America back then.
Now to watch your video and learn more about a motorsport class I missed out on.
My particular favourite among the Group B rallycross cars was the P&O Cruises Metro 6R4
@@studio-2 they were such nimble cars. Will Gollop really ran those fast.
Just curious about the Opel 4-wheel drive system. If I'm not mistaken GM bought Martin Schanche's X-trac 4-wheel drive system in 1984 that he used on that unbelievably fast Zakspeed engined Escort.
Would that be what you claim Opel setup all the other rally cars with?
If so credit needs to go to it's creator.
I think it was a very similar system, however I admit that I don't know if it's the actual system from one of the Escorts.
@@studio-2 It would seem after long research that yes indeed the '86 Opel Kadett/Astra Rally car and Vauxhall Astra(as well as most all Group B 4wd rallycross and Group A 4wd rallycross cars)were equipped with the Xtrac 4-wheel drive system that GM(Opel)bought in 1985 just as Murray Walker says in his broadcast of the 1985 British Rallycross Grand Prix.
Here is an excerpt from a forum discussing building a replica '86 Vauxhall Astra 4S for a quick history overview, and a link to an article originally appearing in Cars and Car Conversations magazine in 1984 where toward the end he goes into what's happenening with Ford, Xtrac, and the future.
The brightside is, Xtrac was a brilliant and revolutionary idea from the mind of Martin Schanche and made to come true by the even more brilliant mind of Mike Endean of Xtrac and Gartrac fabrication two British companys. The Xtrac G4, as it was known, revolutionized 4wd racing.
Australia] Vauxhall Astra 4S Replica
19-05-2010, 12:02 AM
I am building a replica from the ill fated Group S WRC Category that was left high and dry with the banning of Group B in 1985.
A short History lesson:
Opel and Vauxhall built 4 proto type rally cars, 3 Opel Kadett Rallye 4x4.. 2 went on to do the 1986 Pari to Dakar and 1 Vauxhall Astra 4S that was entered and finished 4th in the Audi Sport rally on 11th Oct 1986 in the hands of Andrew Wood/Mike Nicholson. After this one of the Opel Dakar cars went to John Welsh to compete very successfully in the English Rallycross Championships.(from 1988-1992)
I have found references to 4 configuration engine in the car:
2.4L Manta N/A Engine: 250HP
2.4L Manta Supercharged Engine: 325HP
2.4L Manta Turbocharged Engine:400HP
1860cc Zakspeed Cosworth Turbo Engine: 500HP
This was mated to a 4WD gearbox called Xtrac System. Mike Endean Formed Xtrack and designed a 4WD gearbox that could be changed by hand while competing from 28:72 (front:rear) drive stepless to 50:50 by a hydraulic system.
This was all packed into the humble Opel Kadett GSi and is reported one version was as light as 850kgs. The car retained the floor and roof and pillars of the cockpit and the rest was space frame and sheeted in fiberglass."
Link to Race Car Engineering magazine article:
www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/g4-xtrac-escort-rallycross-car-originally-published-in-cars-and-car-conversions-1984/
the only problem with this channel is the fact there isnt enough of it
Great video. I too would say the channel is underrated. What an excellent selection of cars that is very little known about! Still I have some comments:
The Escort RS1700T was not just the RWD of the Escort Mk2, it had a transaxle layout. And the shown tests were in Portugal 82. Corsica was originally named as the debut of the car but that was delayed several times.
The Peugeot 305 V6, questioning the competitiveness. That is a point, but as I understand it Peugeot was looking at carrying on their program as it was and replace the 504 Coupé V6 with the 305 V6 and for sprint rallies the Talbot Sunbeam Lotus with the Talbot Horizon Lotus that you cover in part2. Now if Africa and marathon rallies was what the 305 V6 was aimed at, there was quite a number of improvements over the African specialist 504: The 305 V6 had a transaxle layout (another similarity to the Escort RS1700T), it had an alloy shell, longer wheel travel and for the first time the trusty V6 engine had 24 valves. Seeing that throughout groupB cars as the Ascona 400 and Toyota Celica won the Safari and Bandama rallies, it is a real shame we never saw the 305 V6 competing in these.
In general brilliant background info. I am already looking forward to part2.
Oh yes, I imagine the 305 V6 would have been a brilliant Safari Rally car. Also thank you for the correction with the RS1700T, I think I meant to mention the transaxle but forgot to add it to the script
@@studio-2 Indeed. Coming from the successes of the 504 plus seeing who won Safari and Bandama Rallies, I think the 305 V6 would have been brilliant on these events. It could have never won something like Corsica, RAC Rally, but it was never meant to.
The Escort RS1700T, yeah just thought the transaxle was important news. I can understand you forgot to add it to the script, there is a lot of brilliant info in the video as is. It's just interesting how many manufacturers had mid-engine or transaxle on their cards, but nobody had the 4x4 idea except Audi.
I often think because of the Quattro we were robbed of an amazing time. Because even the RS1700T could have been a brilliant car. The Lancia 037 still won the makes World championship in 1983. Had it not been for the Quattro, the Lancia 037 would likely have been up against Talbot Horizon Lotus and RS1700T etc. Whilst the RS1700T was quoted at 320BHP - that is already equal to the winning 037, the RS200 showed that the RS1700T engine could have been brought beyond 400BHP! Besides the RS1700T was super gorgeous, there was talk of a David Sutton B-Team in Rothmans colours, the Horizon was rather beautiful too and was mid-engined RWD.... I can't stop wondering what would have been had the Quattro only come 2-3 years later.
Besides, the Opel Kadett 4S and the Mitsubishi Starion had "front-mid-engines", the engines moved behind the front axle. Not sure if this made a big difference, but amazing that with mid engines, transaxles, even the double propshaft layout, everybody was about balance, low weight, weight distribution. Today the car industry is on about SUVs and has forgotten all the disciplines that make a car excellent.
It's especially sad with the current state of the WRC with Rally1 - just three manufacturers, one of which is hopelessly uncompetitive (Ford MSport).
Even in the early 00s there were far more - Subaru, Ford, Peugeot, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Seat, Skoda and Hyundai!
@@studio-2 I agree! And when we had 3-car teams there were up to 21 works cars. Since Rally1, when was the last event we saw more than 10 works cars? I also don't like that Silhouette idea. The 3 rally1 cars are under the skin very similar, while the similarity to the road cars that are marketed with this is absolutely non-existant. Alone that makes it quite boring for me.
That 305 V6 😍
The Opel prototypes look cool as well.
Lancia should have made the 037 all wheel drive instead of all the underhanded acts performed.
But the Stratos will always be my dream car.
The Stratos is lovely, I agree. As for the O37, it's a testament to the sheer skill of the drivers that the car won the championship, it was far far behind the competition in many ways - not least of all safety.
Hey man, interesting stuff, thanks. You heard of the Alfa pro car? Think it was an awesome cancelled project too. Would make a good video. Digging the sketchy 80s executive background too. 🤘
Do you mean the 164 Pro Car? That was an incredible bit of engineering, sadly wasted of course.
@@studio-2 that's the one, cool car to begin with but space framed and a F1 V10? Crazy!
Nice to look back on the old skool cars . How times have changed already
The Lada Samara EVA would've also been a cool one to cover.
Mid engined, so it's in Part 2!
❤ more please!! American here. Love the video please keep making rally videos. Hope your channel gets big.
I have a few rally video ideas noted down, but none planned for the newer future. Despite the overwhelming success of the Group B videos, I want to keep this channel's variety, covering the 'obscure & forgotten' models of yesteryear. So as tempting as it would be to make some more rally videos and milk the views and money that comes with them, I value my original goals of the channel over money lol.
Thank you for the kind words though!
@studio-2 I completely understand make sure to make a video about vector you could do pikes peak and all of its iconic monster's, the pulsar gti r etc etc etc.
Vector would be a great idea, especially the mad 1000hp 3-speed auto WX3 and the failed 2008 revival!
looking forward to the talbot lotus horizon in part2.
Thx for not being a robot ! I’m glad to sub to a channel where they dont use cortana to speak their script🤘🏼🏁
Got to sit in an RS1700T recently, it’s surprisingly spacious in there, and quite comfortable
Surprising to hear about a rally car, especially a Group B one!
It really only highlights why Peugeot got it 100% spot on.
Crucially, they were the first to recognise car had to be mid-engine, turbo, 4x4.
They had no idea how to make 4×4 system for mid-engine car, so they've offload it to a third party.
They didn't have any kind of small turbo engine, so they've used block from 1.8 diesel, only concentrating on the head.
And best of all, they've recognised car had to be as simple as possible, and as easy to maintain as possible.
Although never being strongest or fastest or anything that ends on est, it won the lot and was by far best car of Group B.
that lancer's engine was an early 4g63, just single cam
Really informative episode. Hurry up with episode 2. I do have one question though. You have covered special/limited editions and your channel is called Studio2, you can see where this is going can't you. How about an episode about the Mini limited editions? Could be/would be massive. Each car and from what they were derived from. 80s and 90s obviously. Just a thought
Episode 2 is planned for a release on the 15th in keeping with my bi-monthly schedule. As for the Mini special editions video, that was the original topic for the Strange Special Editions video, but I changed it to a broader topic for a wider audience. I may go back to it as part of a wider series on Rover 1986-now which I have planned for the far future, but for now I'm focusing on the broader topic of general special editions.
@@studio-2 I'm suspecting that's where the channel name is from
Yes, I used to have a poster above my desk with almost every UK market Mini edition, when I was trying to think of a channel name I saw the Studio 2 and thought it would make for a good logo and name
@@studio-2 ahh. Back when I was a bit younger. Well quite a bit younger I could reel off every limited edition mini off the top of my head. Can't anymore, so these videos you are making are right up my street. Keep going and you will find your audience.
That must be quite the feat, I could probably name 20 or so - likely not even half haha
Damn, now I have more wishlist cars that I know'll never get into Forza Horizon
Hey mr. studio 2 are you going to do a circuit version of this video? would love to see it or i''ll have to do it myself XD
Apologies, but Ihave no plans to do a video on Group B circuit prototypes, for two reasons:
1) There doesn't seem to be nearly as much to talk about as with the rally cars, since it wasn't as popular a class.
2) Since the two Group B videos are my most successful by a huge margin, it would look like I was obviously trying to emulate the success of those videos.
If you do choose to make a video (or several) on the topic, I wish you the best of luck!
@@studio-2 both of those are very good reasons either way whatever you'll work on I'm excited to see it all.
I might give it a shot never edited but got to try everything once
Group B and Group A are why i own a celica st185. Such an amazing time
very good, brill video but it was Tony Fall not Henry Fall of opel motorsport! keep up the good work!
Apologies, the main site I was using for information said 'Henry'.
Your intro music I swear I’ve heard this before somewhere, what is it ?
Its the game Burnout 3's menu music, the track is called 'Ozone' iirc
I love Grp B rallying, mainly becuz the amount of odd balls showing up despite not being consistent enough
Opel's relationship with Ferguson goes back to the 1970s, when they supplied a small number of Opel Admirals with FF four-wheel drive to the British Commanders'-in-Chief Mission to the Soviet Forces in Germany (BRIXMIS), an organisation that monitored the Soviet forces in East Germany.
The Admirals were followed by a series of Senators, modified by Opel to rally spec (seam-welding the body, for instance).
Wow, I did not know that, despite being interested in the Cold War! A 4wd Admiral must have been a fantastic daily to own, unstoppable compared to most family and executive cars of the time.
Only thing that would improve this is 24 parts, but you'd have to start creating your own homologation cut and shut Photoshop versions akin to EdsAutoReviews 😂. Quality channel bud, I'm sure your numbers will climb quickly.
I have toyed with the idea of doing 'theoretical history' videos, I have a whole plan for how I think BL would operate nowadays but I'm hesitant to make a video out of it.
@@studio-2 that's a really good idea (unless it's a still picture of a dustpan and brush, broken promises and a decimated Midlands). Have you included things like the Aussie and South Africa produced models, or am I overthinking this and should probably get a hobby 🤯
Its more of a rough overview of the brands atm, but I shall note down to include overseas markets in the planning
God I wish that Starion was raced...
A circuit racer using the same body would have looked incredible too
Wasn't the M1 also aimed at group b tarmac rally and track racing? There were a couple of those beasts racing here in Portugal, our touring car championship had track, city tracks and hillclimb events. Around 83/84/85. Only less positive aspect was that there weren't many teams because our economy was shit.
Also I'm sure I've seen a video from the Tour de Corse '85 maybe (?), where you can see the M1 roaring through the mountain road.
Yes, but the M1 was homologated and therefore will not feature in these videos. They looked stunning on rallies tho
@@studio-2 You're right, my bad. They do look (and sound) amazing though, have great memories of them in the Vila Real and Vila do Conde circuits, Falperra Hillclimb as well. I think my earliest Motorsport recollection is precisely crossing the track on a metal bridge and the M1 passing by...it seemed like the whole structure was vibrating because of how loud that car was. The original group A E30 M3 was a loud machine too...
Something to consider: Ford developed the RS200 Group B, that has a compromised 4x4 system, was low on power, and too heavy.
At the same time Martin Schanche was dominating European Rallycross with a Ford Escort, with an advanced 4x4 system where Schanche could change the 4x4 drive bias while driving, had a lot of power (of cource also because of restrictor regulations), and was light weight.
Had Ford swallowed their ego and run with a rally version of Martin Schanches Escort, chances are they would have dominated Group B.
How can I state this?
The car would later run against the best of Group B and win.
When Martin had to run the RS200, it was actually slower and more difficult to drive than the Escort.
Thanks for a very thorough video, great work!!!
Am I right in saying that the closest that Escort got to Group B was the Opel Kadett E4S? From what I remember they had rather similar underpinnings, but I could be wrong
@@studio-2 Well, that depends on definitions of course. But the whole Escort story is an interesting one as it’s focused on the still born 1800, and not what was happening in Rally Cross.
After the Quattro entered rallycross tgeee was a lot of development of 4x4 systems.
For example Matti Alamäki ran a (rumoured) 1.000 hp 4x4 911 turbo.
Schanche was by far the most advanced on any 4x4 system on any motorsport class.
And his inventions was the foundations of Xtrac.
And here to your question.
Since the Opel was a front engined 4x4 with an Xtrac system, you could say it was the closest.
But the Opel/Vauxhall was years behind Schanches development, and I don’t think it had the same advanced features of a seamlessly driver controlled power distribution front vs rear, etc.
(Think if Schanche was given a Ford budget to develop a 4x4 system for their rally cars, they would have been miles in front of the rest of the field, that used a rather cruel system in comparison.)
Another car that I found really interesting is the Lada Samara EVA and Lada Samara S-Proto. A mid 1.8L Turbo Engine, producing 300 BHP and a RWD system it sounded like a beast. It was never raced unfortunately, even if it was, I don't think it would've been competative, though it had great potential to become something more.
The EVA will be in Part 2, don't worry!
I need to see them in track. Such a waste masterpiece that's already made never be seen in action!
Is the Skoda 130 MTX the rear engined car?
Yep, the Skoda MTX 160RS
Having lived through those years I would say that I had no idea those cars existed so I guess I’m not as much a petrol head as I thought 😢👍🏻🏴
Please tell me that this 2:42 engine was nicknamed "the lego brick"
😄 I didn't notice that initially, but now I can't unsee it!
Your lamps in the background are very nice ❣️👌🏼
They are self build ❔😃
I built a lamp for my friend 15 years ago 😅
Love from Berlin 🇩🇪
Ramsi
😄Sorry to disappoint, but it's a greenscreen setup, that whole room is just an image!
@@studio-2 Hahaha 😂
Okay... I thought it could be a green screen ❕
But I love the lamps also when they only imagine 😜
By the way...nice video's... the both really part's from the unknown car's 👌🏼😊
"Ok, I will buy the only 4x4 Manta, only to convert it to RWD"
Everyone else: *facepalm*
It's an odd decision when you put it like that, but considering the fact it was a one-off (meaning parts used would likely not have been recorded and this would be near-impossible to replace), it makes sense
The subject matter brought in the right people to the comment section! Wow!
It got my attention and I'm just Euro Ford/Cosworth geek in a Lazy-boy recliner in Arizona.
Big fan of Merkur then, I'm guessing?
@@studio-2 Capri II (1976 USA version got me hooked). Dad was a Ford VP in those days so I have Ford oil running through my veins. The Capri I built in high school would blow the doors of all of my dads new Fords including Mustang GT's. He had the first SHO Taurus 5 speed which came from the LA Auto Show to our house and that thing was *special* it was within 1/2 car length of my Capri which ran low 13's at LACR and Carlsbad.
I think when cars said Ford VP on the build sheet it made a difference.
Even moms smog era Lincoln's would smoke both rear tires.
We had both a XR4TI and. Merkur but the California versions were pretty gutless. I learned to drive in a 1979 Mustang Turbo 4 speed Pace Car.
Good times. Edit Scorpio
Wow! My parents don't sound half as interesting as yours haha, although my grandmother did own a few EU Granadas (including a Granada Scorpio)
Lotus carlton is my favourite car that and ford siarrai rs 500 cosworth and escort I like old m3 e30 and that to old school proper man's cars I love old audi qr Ford rs200 but would never be able to afford one 😂
7:27 - 7:28 Opel Eurosport Director was the late Tony Fall (not Henry Fall).
Others have brought this to my attention already. I apologise for the mistake.
@@studio-2 That minor off was nothing at all in the midst of an excellent and well researched clip. As a former employee of General Motors and having met the Team, your documentary is the best I have watched on Opel's forays into World Championship rallying. Keep it up, we will keep following.
Im no Ford expert but i wonder if those engineers took the rs1700 development to the sierra/saphia which hit the race tracks a few years later.
I am also not a Ford expert, but I believe experience from the RS1700T project was the main thing, since I don't think the Sierra RS Cosworth (and later the Sierra Sapphire RS) used any parts from the RS1700T.
If they did, it would be rather ironic since the Sierra Cosworth would go on to underpin the Escort Cosworth, so it would have come full circle!
The test was in Portugal😮
06:20 UL-PP2 is an ironic registration plate for a rally car.
Is it? I'm afraid I don't get it
So what happened to all these super rare cars, would love to know. Great show
I'll try and add in a sentence at the end of each car's segment in Part 2 that details the whereabouts of survivors
I have seen a road BX4TC, they are WILD
I love the integrated lights in the 'grille', they look amazing
The rest of the car is great from some angles, but awful from others (especially the ultra long front overhang) imo.
@@studio-2 and enormous box flairs
Of course, wouldn't be a late Group B car without them!
@@studio-2 the same place that has it has a 6R4 also, that’s what initially drew me there. My favorite rally car of all time
I do love the 6R4, it looks so homemade for a top-level rally car.
Was that Burnout 3 OST?? ❤
Yep, I use the menu music for the channel intro animation
Wasn’t the Opel boss Tony Fall not Henry Fall?
Yes, that has been brought to my attention by other comments. I apologies for the mistake.
Bro noone else noticed the burnout menu music in the intro
I've gotten a few comments about it across all my videos, but less than 5 comments total
Cool its a really nice choice of song love the video
If we're talking Group B cars my absolute favorite is the RX-7's
The RX-7s looked and sounded fantastic, just a shame they were RWD and came late in Group B's life so they weren't too successful (iirc their best result was better than either the RS200's or the 6R4's best tho)
@@studio-2 i absolutely don't mind that they weren't successful. They were a blast, RWD and Rotary is always a recipe for fun to me.
Was the Opel Manta engine ever made into 6 cylinders?
Yes, a few CIH engines used in the Manta had 6 cylinder variants, but a 2-litre i4 was the biggest engine fitted to the Manta itself. There was a 6-cylinder Manta offered by Irmscher, but it was not an Opel product.
@@studio-2 Neat, thanks for aswering!
I think FFD were involved with a 4x4_Jensen Interceptor......
They were, the fittingly named Jensen FF. I considered mentioning it, but I thought I would keep it to their Group B cars for the sake of relevancy.
Chasing a 6r4 down the motorway in the nightys on a motorbike.. Great times 😆
I can't tell which would come off worse in a crash, those mid engined hatches were lethal!
Great story tho
I did it tho lol
Thanks
Is that the Burnout (ps2 game) song I hear? 😅
It certainly is! I use the Burnout 3 menu music for my channel intro and a variety of other game music as background music
@@studio-2 one of my favourite games from my childhood! It was really nostalgic hearing it again!
Fiat Abarth one of the best sounding rally cars second to the s1 Quattro.
Wait, hold on a rear engined car's gonna appear in part 2 but it's not the one we're thinking about?! Is it a Porsche!? Cause I'm pretty sure the majority here are thinking it's probably a Škoda.
It is a Skoda (the MTX 160 RS)
The 'not the one you're thinking of' line is for viewers perhaps not so familiar with obscure cars, viewers watching the video purely because they are fans of Group B.
It's also a callback to a line in my first video, the Banham Cars one, in which I also did a Porsche/Skoda bait-and-switch
Could you explain why putting 250 hp in FWD car was a death sentence in early 80s?
Because cars were much lighter than they are now, 250hp was much more power. The peak of FWD rally cars - the F2 Kitcars of the late 90s - could match 4WD WRC cars on tarmac, but they had 270-300hp.
@@studio-2 but why RWD could still handle those powers whily FWD could not? Most of my rally knowledge comes from Dirt Rally series games :D
I suspect torque steer would be a major problem.
Yeah, that was a bit of hyperbole. It would've been hilarious, but not particularly dangerous
Where was the 288gto
1) that was planned for Group B circuit racing, not rallying - the 308 GT/M was planned to be their rally entry
2) even if it was for rallying, it would be in Part 2 due to being mid-engined
Looks like slower version of Up to speed by Donut media
Donut Media is corny as fuck
nie bro thx
The Mitsubishi starion was never in Gran Turismo. At least in the US I've had every granturismo never seen it
The Starion 4WD prototype was in 4, 5 and 6, I believe as a prize car. I don't know about the regular Starion, I don't recall seeing that in a GT game.
Tony Fall not Henry!!
Apologies, the main site I was using for information said 'Henry'.
Why are all this videos with a hand waving person .
I tend to be quite expressive with my hands when I talk