Re-creating Berger's AMAZING 77 OTM 223 Load
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2024
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The 223 trainer build we completed here on Ultimate Reloader is a one hole shooter with the factory loads from Berger: The Berger Match Grade 77gr OTM Tactical loads that is! In this video we'll try and duplicate this load from some reverse-engineering and with some shooting. This will be fun!
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This channel adds so much relative & well rounded content .
Thank you Jim!!!
Hi Gavin, I would suggest trying N540. I have talked with some of the USMC teams at Camp Perry in the past and they really liked the performance it offered over N140. Bob Blaine, Capstone Tech Support.
You’re another person I’ve seen recommending N540. I’m nicely stocked with N140 and while the accuracy is excellent, the velocity is lacking.
Just curious about barrel length and twist ratio.
N140 was a staple for the 80 gn VLD for the USMCR team.
I tried this load with Sierra 77 match. Needless to say I was “Stunned!” Keep up the load recipes!! How about 6mm Creedmoor and 6.5 Creedmoor!! Love this demonstration!!!
Eric won’t yell at you for playing with seating depth, it’s blindly chasing an arbitrary measurement from the lands that he has a problem with. He adjusts his seating depth whenever groups open up, he just doesn’t measure the lands. He just makes some longer to test and if his groups improve that’s the new depth.
I plugged the 24.6 charge weight for N140 into GRT, using .223 Remington (SAMMI) as case selection and got an overpressure warning.
IMR 8208 XBR @ 21.4 - 22.0 GRS. Using Sierra 77GR. Match bullet and Lapua brass. 205 Match Primers. In Rock River Arms Varmint. I don't have any FPS. 2.255" OAL. 1-8 Twist. You may want to try a stronger primer. I did pierce one primer @ 22.0 GRS. All "three shot" groups under .500" down to my best at .255". Best powder I have found so far for this gun. Please remember to work up to these loads, every gun is different.
Vihtavuori N135 and N140 are 2 of my favorite powders for 223 and 6.5 Grendel. I don't get the best velocity out of them in 6.5 Grendel but the consistency and accuracy is insane for an AR15. I haven't tried them yet in my new 6mm ARC but if I had to guess it's going to do good in it as well. Glad yall cloned this ammo for us and great video as always keepem coming guys!!!
I just bought 2 boxes of the 77g otm and some N140 with my birthday money. Now some Lapua brass. I will be using an AR platform instead though.
How'd they do?
23.3grs of RL15 put 5 literally in a hole just over the width of the bullet out of a Tikka. We thought it was a fluke group so shot five more and did it again. Amazing round and load. Our velocity avg. was 2650 w/ 77gr Berger.
Gavin, great work as usual! Pro tip, go buy a ream of card stock paper and stick your target circles on it and you will have nice clean holes for measuring groups.
Yep, the N140 for 77grn bullets is a great match. Using Sierra 77grn TMK with 24,2grn of N140 myself for my 18" barrel rifle in 1:7
Nice!
Hvernig riffill? með upprunalegu hlaupi?
What velocities are you getting with your load?
My Sierra manual says 24.1gr of N140 is the accuracy load for ARs. Couldn't find N140 but *could* find N540. Loaded a few rounds to the same speed listed for the N140 this afternoon. We'll see how it shoots. Coincidentally, it's the same speed that y'all are loading for your Berger clone (which happens to be the Black Hills M262 clone)
How interesting. I’ve just had my Tikka T3 rebarreled with a 25” custom barrel 1/8 twist. Specifically for the 77gr TMK’s. Bought some Vhit 140, Lapua brass and CCI400 primers and after some development settled on 24.7gr. Almost identical to this load. I get 2,780fps with a max spread of 13fps over the five shots I chrono’d
I've been using N140 and N540 behind a 75gr Hornady BTHP with great results out my AR. Excellent powders.
Awesome 👏🏻
I’m a huge Berger factory ammo fanboy after getting consistent amazing results with it
Love it when you put out a technical video.You and Eric are my go-to's.
15 years ago, when shooting service rifle high power competition, Sierra listed 24.1g N140 as the accuracy load out of a 20” AR barrel. I found best accuracy with that charge ignited by REM 7.5 primers. Didn’t get the velocity you guys got but really good 600 yard performance nonetheless.
Thank you, gentlemen. Amazing content. Thumbs up.
Those slow ba powders like CFE223 do best with magnum primers
I can't stop your video's a lot of very good information that I like to know....
Glad you are enjoying the channel, thanks for watching John!
H4895 is the ticket for high velocity and accuracy in a long barreled 223. But that .222 group will be hard to beat! Nice job.
23.8gr plus or minus 0.1gr in 4 different 223 rifles with 80gr amax
Very nice rifle! The initial accuracy is truly a testament to your attention to detail during the build! I’m curious to see you try some CFE223 and compare those results with your established load.
Cfe223 is very temp sensitive...
Yeah it’s pretty crappy imo.
Have you tried swirl charging the powder? It aligns the grains so they are more compact in the case and you won't have to compress so much. Also allows slightly more powder to be loaded.
I'm shooting a M700 with a Krieger barrel 1/8 twist bullet is a Sierra 77 grain TMK with a Winchester SR primer seated with a RCBS bench primer seater enhanced with Hollands primer seating adapter (depth of primer is .005 below case head)and H4895 in Lapua cases. Cases are turned to .013 with a K&M neck turning tool. Barrel is throated for 80 grain Sierra bullets. Cases are once fired, annealed, and sized with a Forester shoulder bump die and a Redding Body die. Necks are ran thru a Porter's Precision Products gauge pin at .2225. Seated with Forester micro seating die. Bullets are seated long 2.45" Sd's of 15 or less and ES's under 30. Powder charges are weighed out to .02 grains. Powder charge is almost 3 grains over book max with a 2.260 seating depth but it is seated long in order to use the long throat as set for the 80 grain bullet.
Love this comment!
Always a great show on UR!
Wow, an order of these bullets just arrived for me yesterday, great timing! Now I just need to find some N140, lol. Looking forward to how this does in my 20" gas gun.
Awesome, yes, let us know how it does!
Be careful with charge on gas gun will not take bolt gun pressures helps for tailoring load gas gun adj gas block
@@GaryBlankenship96b40 thanks for the advice. I plan to work up and look for pressure signs. They are “replicating” a factory load, but given that the powder was identified visually and unknown primers were used, caution is warranted.
@@Ultimatereloader did i miss what primer you were using ??
I had a 223AI chambered last fall and it’s shooting similar sized groups. It has the downside of fireforming brass of course. My fireforming loads with Reloader 15 with 77smks shoot lights out too. I’m using 2018 Lake City brass, 205m primers, CFE 223, 77 TMK at 2.400 OAL. They’re moving at 3036 fps from a Benchmark 26” barrel. I haven’t stretched it out at 1K but shoots sub 1moa at 500 meters. Great post it’s really interesting to see what you’re doing. The AI gives a bit more velocity but there is seldom a need to trim brass.
77gr pill moving at 3036fps out of a 223 ... that is impressive
Thanks for the video. Loved the rifle build!
I shoot 77gr SMK’s over Acurate 2520, running 2750fps to 2765fps with consistent sub 1” groups. I know this is not a1/4” group but I wanted the speed for what I was doing. This is a clone of the Blackhills 77gr. Thanks for the great content
Barrel length and charge weight?
I shoot the same combo using 25.2 gr 2520 with the 77 gr TMK out of a 1/8 .223 Wylde AR, usually I shoot a Win Sm Rifle primer
I love my 223. It's pretty much my main match rifle.
Definitely a good way to start the addiction :) Great rifle build.. Good job loading too.
Regarding the slower velocity remember that some ammo companies blend powders for the desired effect. To my knowledge it's generally larger ones but a possibility.
I shoot the 80gr bergers at 600 in my service rifle. With n540 its a match winner for sure
A friend of mine bought a used Winchester model 70 with a couple of boxes of ammo. He then asked me to install a scope and sight it in. When I got to the range I fired two shots that were almost touching at 50 yards. Moved back to 100 and then fired two more shots that were less than an inch apart. Did a final adjustment on the scope and just fired one shot to verify. I told him to only use that ammo for hunting and when he was down to 5 rounds, bring them to me with the empties.
I checked the OAL. Then chronographed the last five rounds. Not knowing what I know now, I simply reloaded the same bullets to the same velocity (very safe loads) and to my surprise, they fired the same group size of 3 shots in less than an inch. I also loaded about a box or higher velocity loads with a different powder but those grouped about 1.5 inches. BTW, another factory load in the same rifle shot around two inches. I know it was pure luck that I got the same group size and found a fine load without really trying. It sure was satisfying. For some of us, that inch group is fine. I only know one hunter that can shoot those .3 inch groups anyway.
I use Berger 77gr OTM in my 223, best speed with RS52 (2742 ft/s), best result with N135 (2632 ft/s) and 100% burnt for use with suppressor, WW15 varmint 20"
Brass is also fireformed now, an increase in case capacity might also account for a slight decrease in speed.
I would hypothesize that in the smaller cases and powder charge the effect would be more noticeable than a larger cartridge.
Just a thought, though, no experience that would lead me to it.
I came here to reply the same thing. Good point.
Just got back from the range and shot a .34 5 shot group with copper creeks load with 77gr berger otm out of my tikka factory ctr. Starline brass.
Nice! Satisfying isn't it?
May consider IMR 8208 XBR. Seems to gas up the speed a little higher with great accuracy potential as well.
We'll look at that!
@@Ultimatereloader Its my go to for 77s in 223. Great velocity, great accuracy, fairly temp stable, short cut extruded so good case fill and easy to drop.
Looking at several FB groups, many shooters use IMR 8208 XBR with great success. With 75 gr pills most loads are running between 23.5 to 26 grain charges.
Can you do a review on the arca front bag rider you are using and where you got it at. Nice rifle btw.
Shooting a .222 group with a bullet advised as .224 , outstanding !
Change in velocity could be as simple as a different primer. Very cool reverse engineering!
This is exactly the N140 powdercharge with 75 Grain Hornady HPBT for my RPR.
Try the 88 Grain Eldm for longer distance, I also got great results with the N140.
What brass and powder charge are using?
Definitely go Varget. But great build & excellent video. Fantastic groups.
Thanks 👍
That N140 is the best powder for 223 that I’ve used. It has always been more expensive than other options and now I can’t find it at all.
I loved this effort, great job.
Id like to see what you can do with 75 g Hornady Eld-m and 4895!
we shoot 800 yards to 1100 yards with this combination!
H-4895 is one of my favorites for temp sensitivity, consistency and velocity.
Looser neck tension could explain the slower velocity. Fire formed brass with more case volume vs factory brass with Saami specs could also make a difference. Did you full length size?
But, a different primer might bring the velocity back up. I wouldn't bother as long as your SD and ED is small. Your groups are amazing. Good job!
My thoughts exactly. They should have pulled primer specs from the factory load as well.
@Travis Fox how much velocity do you think a magnum primer would add?
@@tomtomtomone ik I'm late to the party, I lately have been doing lots of testing of difference between my known loads and adding different primes. To summarize going from cci 400 to the cci 450 it was the equivalent of a .3 powder grain increase of varget for my varget 223 loads. With spherical powders like Tac and cfe223 the loads had varying amounts of powder comparision to recreate but all roughly .1-.3 more powder.
More than likely it's the humidity that's sapping your 75fps. I would start there. Also worth mentioning, if you're at compressed your sd/es is going to suck if you are crunching the powder. Try flipping and packing while seating, works great As for other powders, varget is going to be slow, accurate but slow. I would highly recommend the Vit 500 series if you want more juice. N540 would be in the same burn rate. Would use caution though they are hot, the most speed I've seen in 556.
Read all the comments and didn't see what velocity you were getting.
Just to add to the conversation I use 25.7gr of Accurate 2520, CCI 450 primer, Norma brass, Sierra 77 SMK out of a 1:8 16in AR. I get an average velocity of 2759 over hundreds of rounds on dozens of sessions. Shoots between 1/4 to 3/4 MOA depending on weather and how focused I am on the given day.
Forgot to add, neck sized with Forster dies, bushing .243, no crimp, COAL @ 2.255.
@Travis Fox Thanks for the reply. If you were using new cases expect the velocity to go up 30-45 fps with fired cases. I did and have found that to hold true with the 6 cartridges I reload.
You should try next the 75 Berger vld about .010 off jam.. insane results in my bolt gun
Berger 77 OTM at 2880 with Varget. Mine shoots tiny groups as well with Lapua brass. My chamber is 223 Wylde in an 8 twist Bartlein. 75 ELD-M's were over 2900 with 8208.
Fascinating
Late to the party but I run 24gr of N135 under 75gr ELD-M loaded long 2.445” with CCI BR4 primers and Lapua brass from a 25” barrel and am pushing 3015fps average (no pressure signs at all)
Would try the 135 for a little more speed 👍🏻 all the best
going to website now to see about that ultimate rifle build
You must reload (gun powder open to atmosphere) in a humidity control room. Keeping humidity low will keep powder dry.
I defy anyone to try and get 24.6 grains of 140 OR 540 powder into a .223 case and get a bullet seated to mag length. I tried a long drop funnel, vibrating the charged case, all of it. Not a chance. As an aside, this ammo has blown up some gas guns recently as well. On paper 24.6 isn't suicidal, but a 93 grain LC case will not accommodate that.
Very interesting, I would love seeing how Varget or AR Comp would do
Hey brother just checking out comments, varget is good accuracy,but mostly compressed load, velocity will not be great with 77gr ,just a little slow on burn rate for me,just my opinion okay,have a great time with reloading ,it can be hit or miss sometime.
You'd be hard pressed to find a service rifle shooter who didn't recommend a 77 grain bullet and 24-24.5 grains of Varget/N140 - So it's no surprise to see this loaded the way it is. I'm glad you checked it though!
With my berger bullet load, I got a .224 10 shot group at 100 yards
It’s Vitah-vooree powder not vita-vatoree. I know it’s petty, but grating to hear.
AR-Comp has been my best 77 grain powder for the right velocity and accuracy combination. When my shooting ability decides to come to the range with me it’s .3 moa at about 2,700 fps. N140 does better with 69 SMK’s for me. .1 moa out of a gasser.
Thanks for the awesome video and documentation of the ammo used. Not sure what velocities you all were getting with the N140 with your barrel length.
Black Hills used to load the 77 OTM MK262 for military matches but the power is somewhat a mystery to make the velocity.
77 Gr. Sierra MatchKing HP
24.6 - 24.7 grains flattened ball power (unknown)
Velocity: 2750 FPS 18” bbl
Energy: 1293 Ft. Lbs.
I wonder if it's Power Pro Varmint?
@@mrrogers2611 I have no idea other than it is a flattens ball powder that they are using.
Get out your Sierra manual. N140 with 77 grain bullets. Accuracy load 24.1 A lot of CMP guys swore by that load years ago.
I'm running 24.5gr of H4895 with 77gr Tipped Matchkings 2.355 C.O.A.L. (that is as long as my internal magazine will handle) at 2950fps on a 40 degree day (no pressure signs as hot as 85 degrees) with my Remington 700 5R and has no problem shooting .5 MOA and that is all I ask of it.
I think your under stated your build it’s not a trainer it’s the king 🤴.
Love my 223, proof prefit on an Origin. 80.5 berger full bores and 80gr ELDM’s are awesome.
What twist are you using
@@MrCococda 1:7
Love your rifle builds…. Added my name to the list. 😀
Got it, thanks!
I have a blueprinted Sako .223 AI with the old Mauser extractor that wears a Pac-Nor 28" 1-6.5 polygonal twist medium Palma barrel. I have had good luck with H4895, Reloader 10 & 15, and Winchester 748 (good luck finding any). I have shot 75 to 80 grain bullets with my rifle preferring the heavier bullets. I've seen little performance difference between BR4s and CCI 400s. With the Berger VLDs 80s, I average 2848 FPS with my favorite 25.0 grains of W748, in fire-formed Lapua (recent lot date) brass. I can hold 0.5 groups out to about 200 yards, then things open a bit but I think that is due more to the shooter than the rifle. In my 1-7 twist 24" heavy barreled AR-15 24.1 gr of Reloader 15 is my favorite load for 77 gr Sierra Match Kings.
Nice results!!!
I use this bullet for my AR. Loaded with 25.3gr of Accurate 2520. Loaded to full mag length 2.260". Shoots about .5 MOA. About ~2650fps out of my 16"barrel.
That's moving!
sweet. 223 is my favorite.
I definitely would like one of your bolt guns. BB is just 20 miles south but wait times are brutal currently.
Yeah, wait times are crippling right now! You can get on my waitlist here: ultimatereloader.com/rifles/
May I suggest you initially capitalize on your successful rifles you have built and shown on your videos already. I think they would sell well as a proven product. Plus rather than dealing with flakey customers whims you could pre build them and skip the wait times and capitalize on customers desire for rapid delivery.
What about neck tension? Did you use a bushing die? Expander mandrel? What size?
Agree perhaps primer but what about neck tension. Factory might be more neck tension than reloads especially for .223
Try your ec tuner on it
If I was able (afford it) I would have Gavin build me a custom long action 270 wsm that’s centered around the newer high bc boolits, because I know he wouldn’t disappoint
So you guys are Awesome I have a 1.65 twist 24 inch Valkyrie upper I just finished up did a few test shots And I built my sister just a little Ruger American ranch 5.56 1.8 twist rifle I did my research and I am going to load 73 Hornady V Max and 77 Nosler RDF I am going to make loads with pro 2000 mr and I have multiple potential Powders 2460 , 4320 with the times availability of products
I'm gonna test with her until we burn the barrel out LOL and then step up the game rebarrel it 24 inch barrel and start again LOL would Love to hear what you think probably send this in a message to you as well
Thank You Vinnie
Are ALL Berger 77gn OTM 223's cartridges made with Lapua brass?? Gavin, LOVE THE VIDS....FOR YEARS!!
Yes! All Berger factor ammunition uses Lapua brass.
Power Pro Varmint is the powder I settled on. Give it a try as I'm sure you will find it works perfectly as I did. I tried everything you are thinking of and many others. When I can get some N555 I'm going to try it but I am getting 1/4 moa and less with just a bit more velocity than the factory Berger ammo.
Crimp can add 25 ish too, I don’t know if you are crimping. I only crimp for ar ammo myself and it gets the sd to less than 5 as well as increases fps.
Would like to see 80grain SMK load development 😊
XBR 8208 with 77 grain bullets also produce very accurate ammo
Im just wondering what groups a precision rifle would get with cheap ammo i know that's not the purpose of a precision rifle BUT it's good to know what to expect if only cheap ammo is available
Great video. Nice shooting definitely a stellar combo. Great 10 shot groups at 100! Just curious what primer did you use? I have all these components and I want to give it a go myself!!
Just wow I love all the detailed info you guys freely provide. I’m sure it’s helped more than just me becoming a more well rounded reloaded and shooter. Just curious if you will be able to ship a ultimate reloader 223 trainer to Canada once you start building them for sale!
If you fill out the import paperwork through IRunGuns they should be able to, what’s another couple hundred bucks for a $4,000 rifle?
24.66 grains of N140, Lapua case, 2.254" OAL. Berger 77 grain bullet obviously. I would recommend a match magnum small rifle primer. Your welcome.
Interested to see how varget does
Wondering if the velocity drop was due to the crimping pressure. Maybe the factory rounds have a tighter crimping for shipping and this leads to a little more punch on the back of the round. Just a thought
Berger 77gr OTM bullets performed great through an AR with a White Oak Armament SPR barrel. First loads used once fired Federal 556 cases and mag length COAL. Groups less than one inch was typical across several powders and charge weights. 0.318” was the best group of the day!
The yellow box does not disappoint. Planning to try Lapua 223 cases this year.
Sir: Could you explain some basic physics at work in cartridges.? Such as the differences between tall cartridges and shorter
fatter cartridges cases. Explain how different powders act differently in different cases and barrel lengths etc. Also, why short and fat cases burn powder more effectively. Also, I would love to see a video on the 6mm BR round. Any short fat BR rounds would be great to talk about. I am considering going with a .22 BR rifle build. Thoughts?
I have to say, That is incredible! Build me one plz🙏
my jam is 26.3grs of 2000mr under a 77smk 2780 fps out of a 18in ar 2.254 coal well above any published max but shoots consistent .5 groups with single digit SDs works stellar in 5.56 chambers
With a powder that slow I bet your port pressure is really high. I would suggest using an adjustable gas block with a powder that slow you can turn the gas down some and lower your port pressure. I have tried 2000MR in both my AR15 and my AR10. Once I got the port pressure worked out, I really liked that powder.
In comparison I think humidity definitely played a roll with the powder at the time it was loaded at the factory versus your load . Dry powder would be more volatile than powder that is high in humidity . The old pioneers who had to load old muskets in the field must have had a big problem with that very thing .
I want to see this rifle and load tested with the EC tuner brake
Thank you for sharing this great information God's Blessings
Would be cool to see some loads with 80gr bullets also.
@Travis Fox I am really liking N140 with the 80gr ELD.
Great rifle and excellent load! Can you confirm COL was 2.225", which primer was used, and what velocity was achieved? Thanks from Canada!
@Travis Fox thank you Travis!
I would love something like that perhaps in a MDT chassis. Regards from Australia.
Which MDT chassis would you pick Paul?
@@Ultimatereloader Probably the ESS chassis in burnt bronze with a heavy barrelled action in .223. Paired with either a Vortex Diamond Back Tactical 4-16x44 or similar Athlon scope. I always enjoy your videos Gavin, especially with Travis on board now.
About the difference in velocity, I have been wondering about that as well. I used to use Lapua brass in my 308 with mandrel 1,5 under. I changed to Peterson brass for small primer and I used the same mandrel. I was getting 80 fps more in the first firing with the Peterson brass than with the Lapua. But in the second firing I was down to the same velocity. But both brass are the same, no difference in the groups. Just wondering about that increased velocity in the first firing with Peterson.
I’m curious to see what cheap ammo would do in that rifle.
I’ll let you know if they build me one !
Great video!!
That rifle does shoot.....................
That's one nice looking rifle ..what about rl15 or it would be nice to see how the new rl 15.5 would work ..
Thank you!
I use the RL15 with Berger 85.5, 2900 fps. Definitely less pressure with higher velos than say H4895, just temp sensitive.
@@chucktaylor6057 rl 15.5 is new they say it's less temp sensitive but to find it is the problem to try it out..
Would definitely think factory ammo is probably running a tighter neck tension for the gas gun crowd which would increase MV.