Why Joel Is A Terrible Person But A Great Character (The Last Of Us Video Essay)
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2024
- Throughout the vast array of video game characters and even characters in a zombie apocalypse, it’s hard to find one that stands out a much as Joel does to me. While on first glance, he’s your typical deep voiced, hardened, broken shell of a man that seems all too common in stories like these, and for awhile that’s exactly what I thought of Joel. He’s a fine character that’s fun to play as, but my mind always comes back to Joel, and the more I think of him, the more I realize just how special of a character he really is.
Thanks to these channels for the footage!
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0:00 - 1:00 - Terrible Person = Great Character
1:01 - 3:58 - Family Man, Working Man
3:59 - 7:37 - The Hardened Shell
7:38 - 9:50 - The Confused Man
9:51 - 11:08 - A Father Again
11:09 - 13:09 - "I Swear"
13:10 - 15:05 - The Lie
15:06 - 16:32 - The Truth
16:33 - 17:24 - The Haunting Past
17:25 - 18:37 - The Beginning Is NOT The End
18:38 - 19:44 - Tess
19:45 - 20:47 - Immaturity
20:48 - 21:27 - The Dark Days
21:28 - 23:04 - The Choice
23:05 - 25:06 - A Quiet Life
25:07 - 27:55 - The Man With No Regrets
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Outro:
Late Night Driving - Broke In Summer
Recommended Channels:
Reel Talk:
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The Culture Cave:
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Warping Fist:
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Isaiah Saunders:
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because he’s from texas
You win best comment 😂
As someone who’s from Texas, I can confirm this 🤣
am from texas: can confirm
Damn Straight!
Atleast he isn't from california
The reason why I like Joel is because he is a terrible person. He just feels real. He's not your generic good guy character. Just a guy forced to do horrible things to stay alive in the apocalypse
that's not a terrible person tho, you'd have to call every character in twd terrible but they aren't stupid video imo
He’s a terrible person with a heart
@@victorreznov6320 I don't think we played the same game Joel was a badass saw to much of his daughter in ellie and couldn't let her die but whatever like i said you're gonna have to call every survivor in the apocalypse terrible just because they have to get their hands dirty abit you pussy
@@legionman2441 look at the way he interrogates people lol when it’s for Ellie we understand but you do realise he’d do that to others who never did anything to him? And yeah no shit the apocalypse makes people shitty guess what tard just cause it’s the apocalypse don’t make it shitty.
Yes it does. When you talk about If something is bad it is always realtive to something else. If Joel was an bad before shit hit the fan, than yes he is a bad person. But once shit has hit the fan and everyone else morals has gotten worse than no he would be considered just normal their for Joel is no longer a bad person.
Joel: Kills and mutilates zombies and people in front of Ellie
Also Joel: “Ellie, that magazine isn’t for kids”
😂😂😂
Reminds me of in Logan where Charles tells Logan off for swearing infront of Laura
"So she can't gut a man with her feet but she can't hear a few naughty words" 😂
Spoken like a true patriot
That's just the average treatment in America for example: 16 years old can't buy beer or cigarretes but they can join the military at that age
Kenny : because I'm a Christian man
Tbh i think Joel was a real depiction of what a person could become in apocalypse
Totally.
Rick Grimes is a better example imo. We see Joel 20 years into the apocalypse but you actually see Rick's defining moments that make him the ruthless killer that he becomes.
@@recklessnotion1899 yea rick was way more ruthless and brutal compared to Joel
@@clackkokicks7731 i wouldn't even say that. I actually think Joel is more ruthless..for example the interrogation scene or the fact you can blow enemies to bits depending on how you play.
Im just saying you actually get to see the transformation of Rick, compared to Joel where we just see the end result of what that world can do to a man who's lost everything after 20 years. I think Rick is more interesting for the simple fact he has multiple character development arcs and actually struggles with completely being a savage up until the end of season 4 where he just accepts thats who he is when he needs to be and no longer feeling remorse or guilt about it.
@@recklessnotion1899 i think its a bit different from rick, cause joel is just a civilian meanwhile rick was police officers (pre apocalypse). And also rick is trying to make the world better because he knows this isn't the right world they use to live in, meanwhile joel is a survivor that follow what the end of the world rules do
“You’d just come after her” Is my favorite quote and scene in gaming history
"That's ok. I believe him."
Cutting loose ends 🤷🏾♂️ I would’ve done it too
@@joejoerunya8908 Man, you people are biased.
@@christhefiend Can you blame us? It's because we empathize with Joel despite the horrible things he has done.
@@christhefiend how is that being biased ?
for me Joel is the perfect example of an anti hero. a villain would have killed ellie to doom the world, a hero would have sacrificed the girl to save the world. the anti hero said fuck you to the world and protected the only thing that was left for him to care for. the world took everything from him, so he took everything from the world.
His alignment is chaotic neutral to chaotic good. By the end of the game, he does try to do the right thing when he can but he will do what's necessary to protect his family.
Yeah & what if Ellie gets sick or injured or something & needs help?
Joel: ELLIE! Don’t worry babygirl, I’ll take you to a…oh shit. 🤦🏾♂️
@@christhefiend The alternative is that she isn't there to be sick or injured, she isn't there at all. Also, just a question, how do you think other settlements survived?
@@65firered I don’t understand what that has to do with my comment. Please, elaborate.
@@christhefiend You made a joke, I hope. I'm simply pointing from a lore and story perspective, that it is already addressed.
8:42, I think Tommy didn't just have a change of heart because of the attack. After the attack, he sees how much Joel has started to care about Ellie. Joel told him earlier in that conversation 'Tommy I need this'. He now sees why Joel needs him to take Ellie to the fireflies. Joel doesn't want to go trough the same pain of losing a daughter again and just wants to stay numb. Tommy knows this like no other.
It was a great attention to detail that shows us how well Tommy knows and loves his brother!
I 100% agree its not the attack that sways him its the interaction after where he sees how much ellie means to him.
Perfectly said. Well done brother
I just like how real Joel is. He’s flawed and he’s selfish to an extent. Ellie mentioned about a dream where she was in a crashing plane full of people. The absent pilot is a metaphor for the missing cure. Ellie wants to save mankind, but obviously "she didn't know how to fly a plane". That can also be a metaphor that the Fireflies will not be able to synthesize a cure despite Ellie's sacrifice. Thus, crashing the plane with no certainty if there would be any survivors. That is some heavy foreshadowing. Personally, this is what heavily drove me (or in this case, Joel) into saving Ellie. This game never has coincidences. Extracting Ellie's brain would've been in vain. Besides it’s not like all the cannibals and hunter’s would stop just because there would be a cure. Is the moral choice of the world to sacrifice one life for the sake of many? Yes. But remember this is an unforgiving world where morals have been more or less thrown out the window. Joel is likable because I think a lot of us would make that same decision he did were we in his shoes.
Well said. I agree.
Aaaaand that same world took the most precious thing in his life 20 years ago
@@LucYGaming_ so? It was one soldier. Stop acting so pretentious. People keep on saying that like that is a such a deep way to explain what he did.
@@jimmycevallos4468It was on orders from the military. The military clearly had orders to kill survivors on sight. A bunch of Joel’s were probably created that same day because of direct orders from the government. Along with the government creating martial law and oppressing civilians why would Joel or anyone like him not have a grudge against the military and therefore the government and any paramilitary groups claiming to be a higher force
i think its less about the theoretical nature of it and more based on the principle, but context is also important. you can't just say "it would've been in vain" like its a concrete fact because we will simply never know. we see it as joel does because we are him throughout the game, and we experience what he experiences, through his eyes and POV. some might say that the risk was a necessary one, like ellie herself, as she feels the guilt of not being able to do something impactful with her immunity. but the game left many agreeing with what joel did. which is an interesting conversation in itself, morals and all. i dont think joel is a terrible person personally, based on what we've actually seen him do. he was a broken man that was trying to be whole again, and in that process he made an extremely selfish decision. i don't think that makes him a terrible person, it makes him human. that's why we all love joel so much, he is incredibly relatable. compared to the hunters and other enemies we see throughout the game id consider those to be much more terrible than joel ever was.
The tape recording Ellie finds at the hospital wasn’t actually of Marlene, as she wouldn’t have had time to make it before dying. It was actually Mel, who was a student of Abby’s father
I thought it was Nora's recorder. That's who it sounded like to me.
@@lyndseyring8704 nope, was Mel, you can really hear it when she says “it would make no difference” she says it rapidly and out of breath like Mel always does, like later when she tells Abby “Scars are tough”
They still would’ve had a chance. 🤷🏾♂️
@@uhuhuh1966 Ellie was humanity’s last chance & Joel wanted to doom it all for HIS OWN WORLD. HIS PERSONAL HAPPINESS. Okay. If anything happened to Ellie outside of Joel’s control, she tripped & died or anything, that would’ve been it. All these pyramids, & schools, people, & futures, gone. Cuz Joel wanted another daughter. Even though he’d probably die soon anyway, he wac getting up & age & didn’t live the healthiest lifestyle so, I’m just saying. Joel was a true selfish piece of shit for that in my opinion man. 🤷🏾♂️ I love him but I never kiss ass, unless it’s a beautiful woman’s & I mean that literally. 🤣
It was marlene though it's literally her voice actor
just like what troy said, joel saw ellie as his daughter by the time while taking her to the fireflies, he said "joel did save the world because the world is that girl"
joel is a good father, it reminds me of "the quiet place" because the parents in the first season (2nd too) are actually a real life married couple who created a whole movie talking about how much they will sacrifice to save their own children, i think its a perfect example of how much ellie means to joel
+ English is not my first language, sorry
Troy is wrong.
@@donovanumbra9704 really ? so your saying your go going to sacrifice your own kids for this world ? your going to hell and be a bad parent-- wow
@@donovanumbra9704 remember they had other kids they brought before and they still didn’t find a cure they could have ended up killing ellie and been no closer to a cure. I think joel did the right thing
I think it’s somewhat silly to describe a character as “a terrible person” in a universe like the last of us. You would be extremely hard pressed to find any person still alive in tlou universe that we wouldn’t define as a terrible person. He’s likely gone further than many others, but still he hasn’t completely lost himself, evident in his connection with Eliie. And while Joel may have made a selfish decision, you can’t definitively say it was wrong.
Exactly. He’s a terrible person by our standards, living in our world. But he doesn’t live in that world. You can’t live in that world and be a “good person”.
And honestly, I just really can't get behind the idea that he's "terrible". Sure, he's terrible to people he barely knows but a lot of people with trust issues are already like that in OUR world where there are no risks of getting infected by a mushroom virus that takes over your whole body. And people seem to forget the fact that he lost his daughter due to him trusting that a stranger would help them in their dire situation.
The fireflies wouldnt have been able to make the cure anyway
@@nicholaslopez2156 And even if they were, who says they weren't going to use it to re-establish their power in society?
Yeah relatively speaking, Joel is a decent guy. Not terrible, not a saint, but he is descent. He was friendly to Henry even after being left for dead, did his best to hold up his promise to Tess, and tried to comfort Bill after he found his partner dead. He's obviously done some fucked up and selfish shit, but nothing that surpasses the antagonists in TLOU.
I’m glad someone else brought up Tess’ last wish. For him to deliver her to the fireflies. “You must feel some kind of obligation to me.” I’ve thought of that too but no one else seemed to bring it up, like, ever which is so weird bc it’s one of her last words to Joel and last words ever. But I see how having a daughter might change that by the end. And I think that if Tess were to survive, she would also be a parental figure for Ellie also. I could tell before she died
Actually, Tess said you've got to get this girl to Tommy's, he'll know where the Fireflies are. Joel did exactly what Tess asked him to do.
@@niallhughes2697 umm, that’s just word play bro……
Tess didn't know they were going to kill her for some idea that Ellie might be the key to a vaccine. And when you look into this further from real scientists, they tell you all they would need is a blood sample, not to open up her skull and hope for the best. The fireflies where useless and Joel knew this. He made the right choice and I would argue Tess would of changed her mind too
I would've liked to have seen a sequel where Joel was alive to show him struggle with that
One of my favorite lines in the whole game is the part where Ellie asks Joel how he knew about the “injured” man being an ambush and he replies with “I’ve been on both sides.” That one line gives us so much about his character. The things he has done to survive must’ve been so brutal, and that makes him such an intriguing character. I really want to know everything he did during that time jump from the opening.
I love Joel so much because despite how he was a horrible person, he feels very real, relatable and he is the perfect example of how most people would turn out to be if they were to fully adapt to the apocalypse in order to survive.
Nobody in this series is 100% pure. Not even Ellie, Tommy, or Abby!
Abby? Joel is a saint compared to that pos.
While that's 100% true a lot of people have Joel on a pedestal and act as if he can't do no wrong
Not even Jesse, and he’s my favorite character in the game
@@elishawilson5342 that’s unfortunately how the Internet is. Quite a few characters that did very bad things have a lot of apologists. Joel is just one example. I was honestly surprised to hear people defend the horrible actions of Snape from Harry Potter, not to mention Cersei from GoT.
why is he a horrible person? One action that makes him a bad guy. He is in the fucking apocaliptic world and fights for survival every day, yes ofc he had to kill many people, quite brutally too, but i havent seen one inhumane thing i wouldnt have done in his situation.
I don't think he's a terrible person because he don't do bad things for fun, he does for surviving or protect those he loves
"Cool motive, still murder."
@@Jarino507I mean yeah but if it has to be done then it has to be done.
@@lemons3703 r/woooosh
@@Jarino507 there was really nothing to frame it as being a joke so it’s not really my fault. Also you’re a cringe redditor
@@MountOrlok Wooooow. Didn't know you were the comedy police.
Being with Joel is one of the safest place you can be in TLOU world
Not if you're not Ellie
I mean why tf is he going to protect you lol
Joel did terrible things but he still remains relatable and most importantly, human. I would not describe him as bloodthirsty as I do not see any hint of joy when he is fighting. But without a doubt, he's a hardened killer. You'd have to be to survive in such a world. Most importantly, any argument that Joel should have surrendered Ellie to the Fireflies overlooks the existence of one crucial character in TLOU: Sarah. If we gloss over Sarah's story and the profound effect she had on Joel, it'd be easy to dismiss Joel's decision at the hospital as sheer selfishness. But the entire game follows Joel's inner struggle against bonding with Ellie but forming a surrogate parent relationship nonetheless. Tell me, what kind of insane, demented, inhuman kind of father, would give his own daughter up to die? No father at all. In the same shoes, I'd do the same. As a father, nothing less is expected for your child.
It is implied that Joel at one point was a hunter, just like the guys who tried killing him and Ellie in the city as they made their way to the fireflies. Ellie asks him if he killed people and him not answering. That and Tommy saying he had "Nightmares about those times" when Joel was saying he kept them alive. So it can be taken that Joel was brutal earlier on in the apocalypse, or in other words "bloodthirsty".
@@kostadim7892 Implied. Not stated. Not shown. Maybe he killed hundreds of "innocent people," maybe NONE. All he admits to is being on both sides of an ambush. Tommy's statement about "nightmares" could not be more vague. It would have been a nightmare without Joel, too. That is all we have on the record. Everything else is speculation.
@@kostadim7892 Anybody just trying to survive would of likely been the same way.
@Kostadim 789 bloodthirsty is looking to kill for no other reason than killing and is generally done relentlessly. hunter’s killing for food and supplies aren’t bloodthirsty but desperate and mad. Hunters killing to just kill are bloodthirsty. Joel was the former and the reason Tommy has nightmares is because the people who they killed were probably not much different than him. Just trying to survive in this new hell.
Very well said. I just played through part 1 on ps5 and I absolutely loved it. Describing Joel as a terrible person is kind of obsurd, given the circumstances. All he was was a hard working, loving father from the very beginning. Only after the whole zombie apocalypse did he have to kill to survive. I love Joel as a character. I probably will not purchase part 2 though, because I've seen too much about what happens and I really don't like it.
I like to think that Joel did feel guilty towards his actions at the hospital. Doesn't mean he would go back and change things but I'm sure the guilt of dooming the rest of humanity is still there. During the segment where Ellie is exploring his house after he died, she goes into the bathroom that's connected to his room. Inside, the mirror seems to have been removed. It's been theorized that Joel removed it himself due to not being able to look at himself in the mirror after what he did. This is all just speculation of course but I just thought I'd bring it up. Really enjoyed the video.
Very interesting! Never caught that before.
Seemed like they were surviving just fine without the cure, life might've been better without internet and all this bullshit...
@@thethriftytypewriter Joel realizes the weight of his decision. The moment he enters the elevator with Ellie, he looks up as if he's looking up towards God and mutters, "oh, God..."
Also, in an episode of Play, Watch, Listen (video games + variety podcast) (czcams.com/video/J_erTqnYOxc/video.html, 1:05:46 to 1:14:56) Troy Baker said that even though Joel would do it all over again... He DOES realize that he's done something pretty fucked up (hospital decision and the lie to Ellie). It's why he dedicates himself to the community of Jackson: helping other patrolling folks, actively going out on patrols himself, keeping Jackson safe, helping the strangers he finds outside (something that folks in Jackson did), preparing the next generation of patrolling folks (he trained Jesse and both of them had respect for each other). Joel was an important part of the community there. He also worked as a luthier. He had experience as a carpenter. I'm sure that he helped with construction projects in the town. He was a valued member of that town (one only needs to look at all the flowers outside his house), and becoming an asset to the community was Joel's way of doing penance for his transgressions.
Joel actually gave the mirror that is missing to Ellie. It’s in her little garage house. That being said he definitely feels guilty about what he did. He’s terrified that Tommy will hate him when he tells him what happened in the beginning of part two. That’s why he gets choked up and he’s unable to speak for several moments after Tommy tells him that he understands him. (Also small thing but I love how when we’re controlling Joel, we don’t get to see his moments of emotional vulnerability with the camera there and when he’s given the picture of Sarah, because he wouldn’t want us to see it) But the mirror thing is Joel just being a nice dad who wanted his surrogate daughter to have everything she wanted/needed. There are two mirrors up in the en suite bathroom that has all his grooming products on the counter like hairbrush, toothbrush etc.
This is actually a theory I could get behind (unlike many others)
1:47 I didn't realize in my playthrough that what the soldier did to him and his daughter was karma for abandoning the family that asked for help
I love how complex the first game-ending is 😂
Every time I watch the ending encounter at the hospital in part 1 I think all of this could have very possibly been solved it they let Joel talk to Ellie and didn’t treat him so damn hostile . I know they needed an ending level for the game but the firefly’s had no reason to be so hostile to Joel from the jump .
The problem is the fact that the Fireflies took any agency a little girl has in an operation like that in the first place. If they had actually let Joel talk to Ellie, that would’ve meant that the FF actually cared enough about Ellie to talk to her. I also think Marlene knows Joel well enough to know when he’s about to try something.
@@REChronic54 The fireflies had already talked to Elli. Joel wasn't her father, he was a carrier (they are not aware of how things have changed). It was Elli who wanted this. Joel is basically a Fedex that starts shooting at you rigth after you signed your package.
@@limonsoda I think Ellie sensed that she was gonna be a test subject but she was never explicitly told she’d die from an operation. She would’ve still given her life if she knew but the fact that FF/Marlene chose to not tell her leads me to believe that they’re scared of her opposing, which means they don’t actually care about what she says. I just think the FF and Joel both contribute to the disaster.
@@limonsoda correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe we ever hear from anyone that the fireflies talked to Ellie. We don’t hear otherwise either right?
Exactly. The Fireflies messed up royally. Just talk to Joel and Ellie together and let her make the decision. She would have said yes and Joel would have most likely respected her decision even if it killed him inside. But no. They just kidnapped her unconscious body and were going to leave Joel to die without any supplies or weapons. They seriously thought that was a good idea to do with someone like Joel? They’re idiots and hypocrites. That’s all they are. Hell, even if Ellie said “No I don’t want to do the surgery” they probably would have just knocked her out again and shot Joel in the head. They’re power hungry terrorists with a god complex. I don’t feel bad for them whatsoever. Joel made the right choice.
i think “bloodthirsty” is a stretch, he doesn’t kill because he likes it but because it is necessary for him and his company to survive
Joel gave everything for ellie
I never understood the whole, "Joel did nothing wrong" idea. He's a tragic, terrible, and ultimately selfish person. But that's what makes me love him as a character, because he is so flawed and complex. You can also see/understand why he makes certain decisions, but doesn't mean they are right or he did nothing wrong. He did possibly condemn the human race to the apocalypse (as there was no assurance the vaccine could work), but still an amazing character
because anyone who was actually into tlou and read the noted and audio logs and payed attention can see it was not going to work
1 audiolog from the fireflies says its very slim 1 note mentions how in 1 year 60 percent of people were dead
2 the state of the hospital
3 the doctor being a vet
@@massy9437 Even Joel says, "They were actually going to make a cure" in the opening of the Last of Us 2. He doesn't say, "It wasn't going to work so I had to get her out of there." He believed and knew it would work.
But he chose to do what he did anyways.
Even Joel knows the stakes of what he did.
@@Tcab96
1: I am far more willing to accept material from the original game than I am willing to accept material from the sequel, given how disrespectful and contradicting of the original game the sequel is. It’s pretty clear to anyone with a lick of intelligence in writing can see that the writing in TLOU 2 is agenda driven and takes liberties to established lore instead of a natural evolution of what was originally set up.
2: Even if the reverse engineered vaccine was 100% going to work, which it wasn’t, that doesn’t solve how morally bankrupt the whole of humanity is. Making David immune from turning wouldn’t have stopped him and his group from being cannibalistic rapist murderers. What is there to save? Nothing. The world has been over since 2013. I wouldn’t expect people to endorse Joel’s decision, but if you don’t understand it, then don’t bother.
@@treymagathan847 1. The material from the sequel is made by the same guy who made the first game you're conveniently willing to accept and dick ride.
The topic of whether or not the cure would or would not have worked has absolutely nothing to do with any "agendas" and you can't demonstrate it does in any capacity. It's a complete non-sequitur.
If you don't like the sequel, that's fine, but don't give this bullshit excuse about "agendas" because your video game daddy died.
2. It would have worked. Stay mad.
You're demonstrating you don't know what you're talking about not only when it comes to the game but also humanity.
The reason humanity was so fucked was because it was dealing with a global and overwhelming threat that was the cordyceps.
Did you think humanity was all hunky-dory and singing Kumbaya prior to the 21st Century? Humanity's history is bloody and fucked up. Absolutely nothing humans did in the Last of Us is at all any different than humanity's first ascent into the 21st century. And yet, nonetheless, humans managed to have prosperous civilizations that resulted in the most peaceful time in all of human history.
Not to mention, not all humans were monsters in the Last of Us. Settlements like Jackson seemed perfectly fine and on the up and up. Demonstrating that humanity can be perfectly fine and come back.
At least with a cure, there was a hope and a chance things could be righted in a better direction faster.
I don't know why you bothered to comment if you didn't even understand the subject matter to begin with.
@@Tcab96 This was their retcon. In part 1 the notes told us the vaccine wasn't a sure thing, but in Part 2 that was all forgotten and they acted like it was a sure thing.
They literally made Joel Human. The most Human character we’ve ever seen in gaming history.
Joel is a horrible person, but he’s not a bad guy. He loves his two daughters and he never stopped loving them. It’s like my favorite quote, “A hero would sacrifice you to save the world, but a villain would destroy the world if he ever saw you hurt.”
Joel's fate broke my heart, but at the same time I would've been disappointed if it didn't happen. He instigated so much evil and brutality in the name of survival that it only made sense for it to all come back to him.
Joel’s death was a productive death. Like Brock in ragnarok. It pushed all story things forward, pushed kratos to choose war.
I just love how Joel isn’t just some power fantasy blank slate for the players to project themselves on. He feels like a real guy with real flaws who the player just so happens to control during gameplay. Naughty Dog wasn’t afraid to have situations where Joel can piss players off with his actions like being mean to Ellie after she saved his life or forcing Tommy to take her off his hands. But at the same time, you totally get why he is the way he is because of that prologue with his daughter. That’s always in the back of your mind when you play the game. He feels like such a real person.
It’s actually Mel on the tape recorder. You can tell it’s her voice actor plus she used to be a firefly and was really close to Abby’s dad
Ah good to know!
He didn't pick himself, he picked ellie
"Terrible person" is hyperbole in the extreme. He is a realistic character, one who experiences the most tramatic possible loss and then spends 20 years living under inhumane circumstances then in a snap moment decides he can't cope with experiencing that level of loss again after finally feeling like he has a reason to live rather than exist.
I think you have misunderstood a number of story beats. For instance staying that Tommy decided to take Ellie due to the attack, clearly the thing that changed Tommy's mind was seeing Ellie and Joel behaving on a manner that resembled father and daughter, making Tommy understand that Joel's request wasn't selfish but based on struggling to deal with that connection after losing Sarah.
Another example would be stating that Joel instantly decided what he would do when he found out the result of the surgery. The story beats show that being a rash judgement in the stairwell (partly influenced by the treatment from the fireflies.) Seems subtle but it's important in that it helps you understand the high pressure, fast paced situation Joel was in.
He isn't the protagonist or the antagonist in normal context, this is a very basic view. The entire Abby portions of the second game are clearly there to show that this is the result of a bunch of decent but broken people on a broken world and it's all a matter of perspective. Your summery is sadly the most simplistic possible perspective.
Not to be rude and thank you for the video just seems you misunderstood a lot of what the writers were trying to tell you.
Why Ellie is the most important character in The Last Of US.
I don't feel like Joel is a bad guy for saving Ellie, and honestly think the fireflies were. They were about to kill an unconcious child without her consent and would probably be unable to make a vaccine, as told through notes in the first game.
Fr if you actually go into the nuances Joel’s decision wasn’t THAT despicable if you just take into consideration how incompetent the fireflies were as a group I mean cmon hiring some random smugglers to deliver the cure for mankind across the post apocalypse country doesn’t seem very professional plus even if they somehow created a vaccine would they even be able to distribute it? Would it even matter this far into the apocalypse?
The whole point of the second game is that she was okay with it. And since it’s a game, it would’ve worked
@@tamd5670 Except the in-level notes imply that the chance for a cure was ever slim, so since it's a game and the writers say the chance of it working was slim, it MAY have worked but LIKELY wouldn't have.
There's also no hint of knowledge in the first game that Ellie knew she would die to produce the cure; TLOU2 is a major retcon in that department which it uses to justify Ellie's hatred and split from Joel.
@@tamd5670 The second game was written by Neil Druckmann who got a woman fired and had all her work scrapped on Uncharted 4 because he thought his ideas were better. The woman was critically acclaimed and audience favorite writer/designer/director Amy Hennig.
His original idea for the TLOU1 was that the fungus only affected and killed women.
His first original story that he wrote and got published, A Second Chance at Sarah, can best be summed up as "A woman I'm not romantically interested in needs to die so I can fulfill my love quest."
Seems the more believable reason for why Ellie saying she needs to die was because Neil may have some issues with women.
@@tamd5670 Consent doesnt work like how you think it does. You HAVE to give consent. Otherwise you are a rapist who says "she wanted it". Thats not a good look. Similarly, never did Ellie actually give consent to be killed for a CHANCE for the cure.
And since its a game, the cure might not have worked. It goes both ways.
Joel only ever defending himself other then the hospital which he still technically defending himself
First, in the world of "The Last of Us," there are no good or bad people, only survivors. Joel did what he thought was necessary to save his daughter, who would have died needlessly. Second, fireflies are idiots, especially the doctor. instead of extracting the spinal fluid, which is full of fungal spores, and then growing the fungus to see what strain it is. I am 99% sure that it is a benign strain because there are over a million different strains, so it is possible that the benign strain evolved alongside the aggressive one and her immunity is the result of the benign fungus releasing chemicals that kill all other strains.
what scares me about joel is how anyone can turn into him. if you push someone to the point where they have to survive whilst dealing with losing the only thing they cared about…. you can create evil.
I hate how I described joel as evil… tbh he was just a conflicted man who made a selfish decision that honestly anyone can understand.
Good thing he isn’t evil
I just finished The Last of Us for the first time, and I think what I appreciated about his character was that he is very clearly not a "good" character, but he is a great one. And the creators never tried to shy away or change that about him. He's a bad dude who does a lot of bad stuff. But he is loyal to a fault and when he loves people he truly loves them. I think it was excellent characterisation by the creators and they clearly spent a lot of time on him
The thing that I dislike about The Last of Us Part 2 isn't the fact that Joel died, but the way he died. Joel is portrayed as a very cautious person, so the way he lets his guard down when he meets Abby's group is out of character. With the experience Joel has, he should have known very well that multiple people would come after him. The writers should have put more thought into how to execute his death.
Considering that the fungal zombie apocalypse can't be cured ellie would have died for nothing
The reason I like Joel is not because he is a terrible person, but because he did everything to protect what he loves most with his life
He’s still a terrible person, I would kill the whole world for my family, I’m doing it bc I love my family but that doesn’t mean what I’m doing isn’t selfish
The old Joe , the nice guy, he died the moment his daughter got killed that night in such a terrible way. what we see is how a nice guy become human without goals , like a animal without human feelings, but still keeps going until he experience what means be alive , again, thanks to Ellie.
A lot of things are correct here except for calling him blood thirsty. I think he is comfortable killing if that is the way he sees tomorrow. He doesn’t seeking killing.
He’s got the attitude to survive in extreme conditions. But that’s how you get shit done.
Joel isn’t a “terrible” person,He just only thinks about himself and his peers especially ellie,human civilisation had already fallen and had already collapsed so his actions are justified because he loved Ellie and the world was to far gone to be saved
He did stuff so bad his own brother left him still getting nightmares of the years they spent together, he must've done some pretty bad stuff then. We know he used to be a hunter and we've seen what those people do in the first game so we know that Joel killed people just to take their food and clothes because that's what hunters do and you can't really say that was justified because there are other means of getting clothes and food that doesn't involve people being killed over it. I think it's safe to say that Joel was a terrible person, maybe he redeemed himself but he did some awful things.
Absolutely not justified. You may agree with his reasoning just fine, but he was A) not doing the job he was asked to do, B) Taking a dump on top of Ellie's choices and Tess' wishes, C) Actively not allowing humanity to have a chance at reversing the Apocalypse. Yes, humanity has fallen, but is not extiguished, and the very fact that he only thinks on himself, shows how selfishness is his only motivation. The idea that everything is "too far gone" is just a weak justification (never stated in the game) to not allow yourself that just love a peace of shit human being, and trying to turn him into some kind of hero in your mind. I Love this character, but i knew if it was ever gonna be a sequel, he had to pay. Saw that miles away.
That's literally why he is terrible though lmao...you can't just say "well I loved them" to justify dooming humanity and brutally murdering people. The fact that so many people in the comments are liking this and saying similar things is wild
It's not justified. You can't just say that humanity has already fallen like that exonerates Joel's decision. He made a choice, a selfish one that not only doomed the possibility for humanity to make a cure (whether this saved humanity or not it's not the point, the point is that it wasn't his choice to make) and didn't care about Ellie's wishes nor intentions, not to mention Tess's. I love this dichotomy and decision, and it does make it a great character because of his choices, but to say he isn't terrible, is just you fooling yourself and justifying the not justifiable.
@@limonsoda there’s actually journals and notes in the game that you can find that proves that the fire flies didn’t know what the fuck they were doing like they didn’t know how to reverse engineer a vaccine so regardless of killing the choice Joel made There is no way humanity would have been saved even with a small window that could’ve been given thanks to Eli’s sacrifice and let’s not forget the fire flies didn’t give her a choice
He wasn’t a terrible person. He was a survivor.
Being a “hunter” was the only way to survive at that time. Despite what we want to believe about ourselves given the right circumstances we all would do unspeakable things to survive.
@@Veachie no he didn’t. He had no resources and had to acquire them some how. Imagine you living in an apocalypse with nothing. You’d soon turn to killing to survive. We all would.
He is actively a predator. He is not just a survivor. Tess was a survivor, and still kept way more of her soul than Joel. Even in the start of the game he was willing to let other children die, if that gave him a heads up (and he didn't knew anything about zombies or anything at that point). He is a selfish ass. I like him, but i would never trust the man.
@@limonsoda how do you know that? We're not really given all that much on tess' past and she's as stone cold as Joel so i personally beg to differ. She also admits that they're both terrible people in her final moments so that's her own honest opinion.
@@limonsoda His goal at the start was to keep Sarah safe. Extra people would mean extra liability.
You also can’t create a vaccine/cure for fungal infections/growth
I love how he uses GOW and RDR2 as examples. Both of which came out AFTER TLOU
By far the highest quality video youve put out. Absolute 10/10, I can tell a lot of effort went into this!
Thank you so much!! It definitely took awhile so I appreciate that 😂
I feel that Joel was 100% at peace with his death. Obviously it was painful but the fact that Ellie told him she wanted to make things work the night before was all he needed to be at peace. Plus he got one last glimpse of his baby girl before he went. Joel regretted nothing and was ready in that moment to leave this world.
His morals were indeed skewed but it’s all a matter of perspective and circumstance. Just like Tommy said, I personally can’t say I would’ve done differently for those I love and that’s what so beautiful about the story so far of the Last of us.
Thing is as far as he knew at that moment, Ellie and Tommy was next. And it was because of his actions and negligence. From what I see that last look would be from someone who thought that they failed to protect what they loved. If not brought harm unto them.
Joel is basically John kreese from Cobra Kai
A child can’t consent to be murdered, and the fireflies didn’t give her the choice regardless. He’s not a terrible person for saving her, it was the ethically correct thing to do.
He's one of my favorite characters & I think the title sums him up well for me.
Joel isnt a bad person. We would put ourselves over the rest of the world too. Joel is smart and calculated. He risked his life (100's lf times) for this random young girl. He builds a relationship with her then takes her in and treats her as if she was his blood.
@GoddessBat16 agreed 1000% thats why when i see vids saying "joel was a bad man" "joel getting killed is justified" its dum an makes no sense.
@GoddessBat16 exactlyyyyyyyyyyyyy ... thank you
I wonder how they handle part 3
Anyone who decided to fight instead of dying or getting infected would have to survive the way Joel did. Had nothing to do with him being a bad person. He even tells Ellie he has struggled for a long time with surviving. Im tellin ya id like to see how good of a person you would be if you were a real man surviving in a zombie apocalypse.
Good video man. But just a couple things I noticed that were off . When Joel is looking annoyed about bill complaining about “Ellie” as you said if you read the dialog he’s actually talking shit about Tess for sending Joel on this mission with Ellie. With it still being a fresh wound in Joel’s mind he’s noticeably upset .
Great video man, truly. Here's a couple of things I picked up while playing through it a second time.
In the first one, after the Pittsburgh ambush, Ellie asked Joel about the ambush, wondering how he knew what was really happening, he vaguely hints at being someone who has ambushed people.
Also in the first one, while in Jackson, Tommy tells Joel, that he still has nightmares from the stuff they did.
I mentioned those, to add up to the point that Joel, was deeply and fundamentally changed. And I don't blame him, losing his child, his reason for being and losing the world and semblance of peace would change damn near anyone.
One important motivation for Ellie is this. When she and Joel spoke about possible reconciliation, there was hope that their relationship could be rekindled, I imagine she went through the mental gymnastics of wondering how the relationship would be, would it be the same, different, better, worse, was there any reason to hope. All of those thoughts had to be running through her mind, and then...
Joel is brutally murdered.
No resolution
No rekindling
No answers ... Ever.
To have that hope violently ripped away, right in front of her, I understand why she would not let it go.
Could you, could any of you?
I said once and I'll say it again, The Last of Us 2 is a Dark Masterpiece.
I agree. I especially love how Tlou2 keeps us hanging with the Joel flashbacks, not revealing the true motivation behind Ellie's vengeance until the very end.
they wicker man(2006)'d my boy
personal hot take: Joel’s death, while tragic, kept in with the first games lessons. The apocalypse is a harsh, unforgiving place, and you have to be hard to see yourself and loved ones live through it.
Joel is a survivor, and at the end of the day, "good people" usually won't survive an apocalypse
My dude, i will never "get over it" about joel death.
My argument about the ending of the first game is that they play tested it with two groups. One wasn’t a parent and chose to have Ellie 50% of the time and the other group was parents and chose to save Ellie 100% of the time and there was never a question l. Thats why the game developers choose to save her. He is a parent, he was Sarah’s parent and now Ellies it is what any parent would do.
He truthfully isn’t even that “terrible” of a person. He is arguably what most people would turn into in a time like that. But I do agree playing as a character who has or does terrible things does make the character more interesting as you try to figure out the reasonings for his dark turn. Other than the fact ya know, he lost his daughter.
Joel is one of my favourite characters in gaming history, not because he's a stone cold badass, but how real he feels, he makes selfish decisions, led by HIS wants and needs, he knows the world is fucked, he doesnt care, he still does whats best for his family and those dear to him, he throws his morals out of the window to survive... Basicly, he does everything we, players, would have done, and he's okay with it, and thats why i love Joel as a character.
The line in the first game "we're not murderers we're survivors" is hammered pretty hard and I'd like to believe Joel used this motto to justify the worst parts of himself; and I believe its just the general mentality of people in this universe, they have to think this way to survive; its either us or them.
This should be called "Last of Us story recap" rather than a breakdown of Joel's character
The watch just broke cuz of the fall lol
He wasn't a terrible person before the outbreak or at least I don't think he was. Always makes me wonder how much the need to survive can change a person. Being a good person in that world will probably get you killed. In our world he's considered terrible but in that world maybe he's normal.
Rip Joel
“stone cold blood thirsty murderer” lol ok
How many tlou essays will you watch?
Me: yes
I don't know if this makes me seem like a bad person, but I would do the same if not worse for my family.
Joel is a SURVIVALIST. He isn't terrible, he knows it's a harsh world that needs a harsh but strong resolve. He isn't terrible, he is realistic in the world that the Last of Us is set in.
Finally someone who actually has sense
IMO leaving Ellie to the firefly’s is way more terrible then saving an innocent child from being murdered no matter if you thought Ellie would be ok with it, she should still have the right to consent
And if the firefly’s were so sure that Ellie would say yes why didn’t they ask her? Because they didn’t want to risk her saying no. But somehow Joel is in the wrong
I get what you're saying but he is absolutely not a horrible person
The problem with this and other analyses of the Pt. 1 ending is that two things are almost never addressed when making sense of Joel’s character and decisions.
1. While Ellie would have likely given up her life willingly, she’s never actually given the choice. Throughout the game she wonders what’s going to happen when they get to the fireflies, and she and Joel are under the impression that it’s testing, not a life-ending surgery.
2. And while there are all sorts of arguments around the ethics of killing one for the greater good, most of us would maybe say yeah, do it. Save humanity. However, they have literally no idea if they can actually reverse engineer a vax. Marlene even says “we think we can”. So, not only is Ellie not given a choice, but she could be killed for absolutely no reason. They may not even garner helpful research from it. I saw a really great analysis of the ending, and that person also brought up that they have no idea how the infection is affecting, or may in the future, affect Ellie. Meaning they don’t know what the vax would eventually do to people.
It’s also hard to understand why they need to start with deadly brain surgery. Why aren’t there more tests they can run? They waited this long, why can’t they wait until she’s awake?
Anyway, Joel can be judged for a lot of things. He’s a very complex and compelling character, but I don’t think he’s a terrible person for this particular decision. All the murdering, sure (esp at the hospital), but the world he lives in is pretty dark.
I think what makes Joel a bit of a terrible person is his hunter backstory. Hunting people everyday and regularly torturing them is fucked. Then again when you’re getting more supplies hunting people than in the QZs, idk. But something tells me Joel didn’t just join for the supplies.
He was lashing out at the world got consumed by his inner darkness lets not foeget during the prologue Joel decided to leave some people on the side of the road even though they had plenty space in the car to help them out. His survivor instincts kicked in early on.
Joels relatable af. Everyone would love to sit here and say they'd sacrifice someone they love for the entire world, but I don't think most would. I wouldn't.
Not just sacrifice, *sacrifice because someone they never met and can't vouch for said to without evidence.*
We *know* they wouldn't because people made a call to arms to destroy 5G towers because they cause the beer bug, and nobody but people with the IQs in the double digits (if that) agreed.
Something I've always thought about since playing TLOU for the first time is, what would have happened if Joel Had the chance to talk to Ellie before the surgery? If the sequence of Ellie almost drowning and Joel gets knocked out by the fireflies while he's attempting to revive her, what if this didn't happen? If Ellie and Joel are fully conscious and both know that the surgery would kill Ellie would he have made a different choice? The lack of a final goodbye for Joel is something that led him to doing what he did at the end of the game. If they both understood the consequences of the surgery which would lead to the cure I think the events would have played out differently. Yes he was thinking of himself when he done what he did, but he isn't a monster. He is a man who loved someone he thought of as a daughter. What would any of us have done?
This feels more like a summary of the game through most of the video
I think tess would of completed the mission and handed her over, Joel's connection with Ellie is built upon his grief of losing his daughter (somthing as far as we are aware tess does not have experience with). Tess was happy to die in the hopes of a vaccine so I don't doubt she would of been fine with sacrificing Ellie once it came to it, that's what gives tess' death importance. Not only does Joel agree to do this mission as it was tess' last wish but the story would of been very different with her in it to the end
I played this when I was young and single, then again after being a dad. It hits different. Idk I'd probably shoot the damn fireflies too if they wanted to risk killing my daughter for a slim chance at a cure.
I still veiw joal as a flawed hero I have always seen him as a man who just wants to protect everyone he cares about no matter the cost, just like any decent parent or loved one would do
That I don't understand, why everybody thinks that an almost raped, with clear survivor's guilt, 14 year old girl with the trauma of killing that man the way she did, even if he was a terrible person, why to think that she can make a life-death decision?
Joel is my parents "You won't go to that party, period. So hate me forever" :)
Now, as a grown-up, I understand why, and I thank them.
Idk I feel it’s not okay to say someone is evil because of what they’re forced to do. Like what’s the alternative for Joel? His last choice in the first game was bad but to be honest it was understandable considering the circumstances (immediately prepping her for surgery while unconscious) so she didn’t even have a choice and didn’t know the stakes.
People who blame victims never ask you to look at the victim's perspective for a reason.
If you do then their victim blaming may fall apart.
@@crazyinsane500 the entirety of tlou 2 summed up lmao
I like Joel because he behave like at least 90% of the population would in such a universe, very realistic character.
He's miserable, cruel, but not in a cliché way, neither the classic 'broken man who regain his humanity back'!
I will be doing videos about the last of us when my new phone arrives (my old one broke so I can’t upload on my CZcams boxing channel) when it arrives I will make a gaming channel, literally because of the first last of us game.
My Opinion: They Fucked up Joel's character so much.
I think the fact that Joel is such a crappy person makes him one of the most relatable characters i've ever played. He isn't a god like Kratos or some mythic character who does the right thing all the time just because the story demands it. He is human and he gives in to his humanity the same way I think so many of us would, and he suffers the consequences like many of us would too.
I honestly would've given anything to see Joel and Ellie reconcile and be back together again. If only Part 2 didn't kill him off too early.
It’s honestly what makes me like part 2 so much. We love both of these characters and want what’s best for them, but it can’t happen, and Ellie never got to say goodbye to him so it makes it all the more tragic. I don’t wanna get too in depth I’ll save it for the Ellie video 😂
@@thethriftytypewriter I would of liked if the had them on good terms again and THEN kill joel, which i think would of made his death more devastating and impactful.
Hopefully they give us a game that takes place in those 5 years
His death was sloppy.
Agreed
I don't think Joel is bloodthirsty. He just knows that if he ever hesitates to kill, it could end up with him dead. Just look at what happened in tlou2 when he let his guard down...
"A stone cold murderer" bro we wouldn't even be able to play as him if he wasn't. Anybody that is strong would've become a stone cold murderer in a zombie apocalypse. If you don't you die, you can't trust anyone.
Joel doesn't stop the car when he sees the Hunters because he recognizes it's a trap and that he used to do it himself with another group, this is established in a dialog he has with Ellie after this event,Joel was written as a very ambiguous character,this world is very amoral and rough, just the first moments of the game Tess comes in after a fight and shortly after executes two dudes cold blooded, for them it's just a Monday
Joel is a lot like Rick grimes in the aspect of doing whatever it takes to keep the people you love safe. I guarantee if Judith or Carl were in Ellie’s shoes, Rick would do the same thing that Joel did. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s okay but that is why those characters are loved so much by us. Of course they are bad people, but the things they do to keep the ones they love safe seems justified. When Rick bit that guys neck out to get away from the claimers, he was doing it to get out of the situation they were in so his family would be safe. Those two characters are two of the best characters ever made up and would love to see you make a video on them being similar.
Honestly any sane person would probably do that because it’s human nature to do stupid things
the difference is that Rick always had the greater good of his people in mind
I wish The Walking Dead would’ve done a better job at establishing that there are no “good or bad” people. Even though they try to insist that Rick and his group are morally grey, they still come across as the only people who are more “sane” compared to everyone else who seems more evil
Difference is that Joel was a hunter, which means he committed acts that would make even the likes of Rick and Negan shudder. Tommy has nightmares of the days he spent with Joel, and in the world of TLOU that’s pretty impressive
Rick and Joel are pretty much nothing alike. The only thing they have in common is the fact they'll do whatever they have to but the reasons for why are totally different. Rick was always staying alive so he could lookout for his people. Joel stays alive mostly for himself and out of pure spite. We don't even know if he'd die for Ellie because Joel ultimately dies as a result of one of his selfish decisions. Whereas Rick "dies" willingly to protect his people. Rick has his cold moments too but Joel is very linear in that aspect and I don't know if he can consider people outside of Tess, Tommy, or Ellie as family. Joel was content with his coldness but Rick always struggled with it and always came out of the other end of it realizing not everybody is bad. Joel is more in line with Morgan when he had to "clear" than he ever was with Rick.
Joel is something more than the words used to define him here. The rules of this world are different. Things like "Terrible", "Cruel" and "Ruthless" that mean negative things in our regular world are positive traits in this one. He is a Survivor. A fighter. And above all else he is something we rarely see in games. He is RELATABLE. Because he's a father. 🌸
Joel mad survivor instinct kept him alive throughout the apocalypse
The games do suggest that between 2013 and 2033 Joel did a lot of terrible things. Loss and experience, within a crumbling world, led him to dark places. Necessity was a factor as well when you consider the Cordyceps pandemic, and all the fun things associated therein. However, I don't think being shaped by your reality means you are a terrible person. Ellie gave him a reason, something to fight for, and Jackson gave him a place or chance for redemption. All signs indicate he was a respected member of the Jackson community. Absent assassination he could have lived for many more years and found further redemption.
The idea that Joel is wrong or selfish or bad for saving Ellie is false. He is in the right. Ellie has a right to her opinion, but she's wrong, her life means something by living as long as possible. Dina, Cat, Jessie, everyone she interacts with in Jackson has had their lives improved by her presence and her life improved by their presence in hers.
Karmically speaking, he deserved death for what he did from 2013-33, not for saving Ellie. Joel deserved to live for saving Ellie.
I like Abby, but when your dad wants to kill a 14 year old girl he deserves what he gets.
i knew Joel was going to die in the second one but not in the first hour i never even got the game bc of that i wanted to see more of him
Joel is the best because he has been on both sides
He’s if you crossed Wolverine with Mad Max