Time Kills Next-Gen Technology ☠

Sdílet
Vložit
  • čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
  • Subscribe to my new newsletter! more-moore.com
    Patreon helps support this channel: / techtechpotato
    Everyone loved Optane - at least the concept of Optane. The price was a bit much, and it took a lot of work to actually work, but if it had the opportunity, it could have been massive. Intel has killed it.
    Cloud is here, but which cloud do you trust? Manage your infrastructure with Linode, the biggest independent cloud services provider. Linode offers double the database performance per dollar than the big four, and now enhances it with NEW NVMe-backed block storage. Spin up a game server, website, personal VPN, or something more bespoke today with a free $100 60-day credit at www.linode.com/techtechpotato.
    [00:00] Cache and Technology
    [00:34] www.linode.com/techtechpotato
    [00:59] Intro to Cache, Capacity and Latency
    [02:19] 3D XPoint
    [04:33] Intel and Micron joint partnership
    [05:25] Optane Products
    - [05:44] Cache Drives
    - [06:36] Optane Memory + NAND
    - [06:58] Optane SSD
    - [07:15] Enterprise SSD
    - [08:00] Optane DC Persistent Memory
    [08:19] Optane Initial Perf Claims
    [10:25] Memory Mode vs App Direct
    [12:16] DCPMM Modules
    [13:24] How Optane was Manufactured
    [15:30] Micron bails, sells fab, Intel sells NAND
    [17:10] Intel Kills Optane, Official statements x2
    [19:00] Optane on Sapphire Rapids?
    [20:45] Optane was early, CXL
    [22:45] Cat Tax
    www.anandtech.com/show/16558/...
    www.anandtech.com/show/15972/...
    www.anandtech.com/show/16800/...
    www.anandtech.com/print/9470/...
    semiaccurate.com/2015/09/01/i...
    www.semiaccurate.com/2015/07/...
    semiaccurate.com/2016/09/12/i...
    -----------------------
    If you like these videos and want to see more, Patreon helps support this channel: / techtechpotato
    Follow Ian on Twitter at / iancutress
    Follow TechTechPotato on Twitter at / techtechpotato
    If you're in the market for something from Amazon, please use the following links. TTP may receive a commission if you purchase anything through these links.
    Amazon USA : geni.us/AmazonUS-TTP
    Amazon UK : geni.us/AmazonUK-TTP
    Amazon CAN : geni.us/AmazonCAN-TTP
    Amazon GER : geni.us/AmazonDE-TTP
    Amazon Other : geni.us/TTPAmazonOther
    -----------------------
    Welcome to the TechTechPotato (c) Dr. Ian Cutress
    Ramblings about things related to Technology from an analyst for More Than Moore
    #techtechpotato #optane #memory
    ------------
    More Than Moore, as with other research and analyst firms, provides or has provided paid research, analysis, advising, or consulting to many high-tech companies in the industry, which may include advertising on TTP. The companies that fall under this banner include Armari, Facebook, IBM, Linode, MediaTek, NordPass, Qualcomm.
  • Věda a technologie

Komentáře • 393

  • @wingedrhino33
    @wingedrhino33 Před rokem +114

    The silliest part of optane was it reached a point where 32GB RAM sticks were cheaper than 16GB optane modules when bought new. I REALLY wanted an nvme optane ssd on my laptop that'd be dedicated memory just for heavy database workloads but it made more sense to upgrade to 64GB of RAM.

    • @aarrondias9950
      @aarrondias9950 Před rokem +1

      They're selling for like five bucks on eBay out of China.

    • @Adierit
      @Adierit Před rokem +2

      @@aarrondias9950 you signing up to put 5 dollar china special ebay components in your PC?

    • @aarrondias9950
      @aarrondias9950 Před rokem +9

      @@Adierit already have. I've had no issues with em either.

    • @catchnkill
      @catchnkill Před rokem +5

      @@Adierit Different purpose different solution. I would not mind to store my Japanese love action videos on those cheapo hardware.

    • @wile123456
      @wile123456 Před rokem +6

      If they licensed the tech for other companies to make and manufacturer it, it would have gotten much wider adoption. Imagine is samsung or others used their fabs to make it. Huge money savings

  • @MoraFermi
    @MoraFermi Před rokem +198

    Optane: the most revolutionary technology Intel squandered since i960.

    • @greggmacdonald9644
      @greggmacdonald9644 Před rokem +3

      Yep. Dammit, Intel.

    • @haze2427
      @haze2427 Před rokem +19

      Everything intel does is a failure if its proprietary.

    • @markm0000
      @markm0000 Před rokem +12

      Intel is just a crazy circus of budgets and smart people working on projects that will never be funded enough to survive.

    • @squelchedotter
      @squelchedotter Před rokem +2

      They also squandered Itanium

    • @Chalisque
      @Chalisque Před rokem

      @@squelchedotter They didn't really squander it. There was nothing to squander. It was an experimental architecture for which the necessary clever compilers were impossible to write, and was more of a f***-up that took way longer to die than it should have.

  • @Algorythm44
    @Algorythm44 Před rokem +80

    I don't know about the server side, but I know the consumer side was always a joke because it was so expensive. If you can't afford an ssd, but want your hdd to be sped up, it would make sense to have something like optane. . .but not for the price of a full ssd, why speed up a bad drive when you can just have a good drive to start with

    • @nk4j272
      @nk4j272 Před rokem +1

      At consumer level 8/16gb of this stuff would be perfect for keeping inactive chrome tabs imo

    • @GewelReal
      @GewelReal Před rokem +14

      @@nk4j272 for 5$ sure
      otherwise you get 120GB SSD for 15$

    • @Algorythm44
      @Algorythm44 Před rokem +17

      @@nk4j272 If you could get 8/16gb for like $20 yeah that would be fine, but it was stupidly overpriced like $50 for 16gb, at that price you might as well just get more ram 2x8 ddr4 was also $50

    • @PeterMikeSolomon
      @PeterMikeSolomon Před rokem +1

      Yeah agreed it was a terrible value proposition…

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem

      Less than $80 caching SSD was too expensive?

  • @callofdutyfreak10123
    @callofdutyfreak10123 Před rokem +37

    My dad worked on the original 3D XPoint team back in ~2013, and this is the only video I have seen on this topic that gets what it is 100% correct!

  • @rougenaxela
    @rougenaxela Před rokem +43

    It feels to me like a big part of Optane's problem, was a lack of advancement from when it initially released. The technologies it meant to be sitting in the middle of the stack between kept advancing faster than Optane could keep up. I don't know how much of that was due to being hamstrung by being tied to this one fab, or a lack of investment in research, but it was simply too stagnant.
    I do hope in the future someone will take up the torch of fast byte-addressable persistent storage.

    • @deth3021
      @deth3021 Před rokem +1

      That actually makes a lot of sense.
      Especially as they couldn't fully leverage the tech due to connection tech limitations.

  • @slugslikepie
    @slugslikepie Před rokem +180

    I'm really honestly sad that they're discontinuing it.

    • @acasccseea4434
      @acasccseea4434 Před rokem +32

      years later, someone is going to dust this off, and sell it as a brand new idea.
      maybe apple will brand it as revolutionary, and invented by apple

    • @glenwaldrop8166
      @glenwaldrop8166 Před rokem +8

      ​@@acasccseea4434 Primocache can do similar with any SSD, Optane being Kaby Lake + locked was a mistake.

    • @nikolausluhrs
      @nikolausluhrs Před rokem +4

      @@acasccseea4434 im sure intels lawyers will be all over them if they do it even a second before the patent expires

    • @callowaysutton
      @callowaysutton Před rokem +4

      @@glenwaldrop8166 Intel Optane DDR-T modules are very different from regular SSDs, DDR-T doesn't ware with usage

    • @greggmacdonald9644
      @greggmacdonald9644 Před rokem

      @@acasccseea4434 If AMD are smart, they'll buy the patents/rights and run with it.

  • @milestailprower
    @milestailprower Před rokem +28

    4:40
    IM Flash was in Lehi, Utah (pronounced lee-high not let-ee).
    It's quickly been changing hands. In 2019, IM Flash was disbanded and it just became Micron Technology Utah.
    Then, the fab was purchased by Texas Instruments just last year.

    • @dazealex
      @dazealex Před rokem

      How is Utah if I moved get out of California as a IT Tech Manager/Software DevOps guy?

  • @GeekProdigyGuy
    @GeekProdigyGuy Před rokem +40

    Honestly, targeting and marketing Optane as an intermediate between SSD and RAM might've been a death sentence. Too small a niche and price bracket sandwiched by rapidly improving, far more mature technologies. Not to mention the complex, Intel-only support for PMem.

    • @JLGBinken
      @JLGBinken Před rokem +8

      It also didn't help that AMD server-chips became quite successful and will support WAAAAYYYYY more DDR3/4/5 memory (even the cheap chips support up to multiple TBs) compared to what Intel was offering, with its “wonderful” Xeon product differentiation.

    • @GeekProdigyGuy
      @GeekProdigyGuy Před rokem +3

      @@JLGBinken Yup. I also don't think 512GB per DIMM for PMem was compelling enough density-wise, and at current prices 256GB DDR4 can be found for similar prices to 256GB PMem. Maybe they just couldn't manage it for gen2, but if they'd been able to go all the way up to 4TB modules (via DDR, CXL, or whatever low-latency interface), then we'd be talking 16x density instead of 2x.

    • @ABaumstumpf
      @ABaumstumpf Před rokem

      @@JLGBinken "and will support WAAAAYYYYY more DDR3/4/5 memory"
      Sure. Source?

    • @flashmozzg
      @flashmozzg Před rokem +3

      @@ABaumstumpf Just look at and compare the specs.

    • @ABaumstumpf
      @ABaumstumpf Před rokem

      @@flashmozzg So no actual argument just making shit up - you do you.

  • @ericneo2
    @ericneo2 Před rokem +67

    What a bummer Intel did it to themselves NVDIMMS / PMDIMMS are amazing and would have been the future of laptops and server computing but Intel roadblocked themselves, limited their use cases themselves and then locked down the PMDIMMS to Intel only systems the same way NVDIMMS are locked down due to their insane hidden costs.

    • @tommihommi1
      @tommihommi1 Před rokem +9

      Yield were probably horrifyingly bad

    • @callofdutyfreak10123
      @callofdutyfreak10123 Před rokem +7

      What they needed was a dedicated Optane bus with its own dedicated busses. Instead they limited it by requiring the CPU to access it through the DDR PHY. CPUs since Skylake have had their own dedicated Optane controller, but it was just never used…

  • @srikanthramanan
    @srikanthramanan Před rokem +33

    Thanks Ian, please do a video on the Sapphire Rapids delay. It's very disappointing that Optane is biting the dust. As an employee of SAP, Optane PMEM was touted to us as a game changer for our SAP HANA in-memory Database. Now our Customers and us are left in limbo.

    • @kelownatechkid
      @kelownatechkid Před rokem +2

      This is major for Oracle and VMware customers as well, sad days

    • @srikanthramanan
      @srikanthramanan Před rokem +6

      Sometimes we have to accept the harsh reality that no matter how cool and desirable a piece to technology is, it may not always be viable from a business stand point.

    • @zbigniewmalec4816
      @zbigniewmalec4816 Před rokem

      What about certifying SAP Hana on AMD ? Genoa seems to have cxl memory included

    • @srikanthramanan
      @srikanthramanan Před rokem +1

      I’m on the consulting side and not involved in product development and I don’t have full visibility on what’s to come. From what I’ve heard, HANA heavily relies/uses Intel specific instructions and hence hasn’t been certified for AMD Epyc. AMD Epyc certification may happen in the future.

    • @jeremyschulthess63
      @jeremyschulthess63 Před rokem +3

      @@srikanthramanan I run a data center with all AMD Epyc CPUs on VMware. We do a lot of hosting for customer DEV/Demo SAP systems and that includes HANA. A few years ago I ran the HANA PRD performance test that can be used to certify hardware that isn't on the HCL. Our Epyc Rome and Naples systems passed with flying colors. I think the entire Intel Specific Instructions is nothing more than marketing saying "Intel has given us a boat load of money to keep this Intel only."
      @Zbigniew I would have loved to have it certified going back to Rome. AMD with the 8 channel DDR4 made a huge difference in RAM density compared to Intel. Now with ICL & SPR Intel has only gotten to 8 channel and FINALLY gotten rid of the L series CPUs to allow all their CPUs to access the full amount of RAM. However, once again Intel is behind the 8 ball in terms of density compared to AMD. With Genoa AMD is going to 12 channel RAM when Intel is still at 8 channel. When you are doing virtualization, RAM is much more important that physical cores when you are running dual socket 32c/64t CPUs. All my hosts have 1TB RAM and I wish I had another TB/host. CPU over provisioning by 25-30% or more is pretty easy when you have that many cores as the odds of not having available cores and a VM waiting for CPU is quite small. However, RAM over provisioning can have a MASSIVE performance impact at just 10% to the point that VMs crash.

  • @AshtonCoolman
    @AshtonCoolman Před rokem +29

    It's heartbreaking to see Optane go away. Damn, Intel...I hope they license it out to other manufacturers.

    • @SebastianKurek
      @SebastianKurek Před rokem +12

      The other way round. Intel is now sitting on some juicy patents with this and will sue anyone who attempts to bring something similar (and possibly better) to market.

    • @wayland7150
      @wayland7150 Před rokem

      I think Micron still have it.

    • @wayland7150
      @wayland7150 Před rokem

      @n n I don't think Intel did a good job of explaining what it is or putting it in a form that people wanted. It's definitely desirable but you think you already have it when you buy a normal SSD, you don't have what Optane provides.

    • @wayland7150
      @wayland7150 Před rokem

      @n n Yes, terrible marketing. I've often tried to improve computers using caching or small SSDs but the economic of this are poor and getting worse. First of all fit a decent amount of RAM that speeds up disk activity due to not using the disk as a substitute for RAM. Secondly have a large SSD for the OS or everything if you can afford that. Finally use the hard drive for bulk. Optane does fit in here but as the operating system drive rather than some kind of cache.

    • @wayland7150
      @wayland7150 Před rokem

      @n n In terms of what you'd want from solid state storage Optane has it, assuming it was bigger and cheaper. Nand Flash is a really messy compromise that only works because it's bigger and cheaper. Without all the go faster trickery added to it it's slow. Optane is naturally fast and does not wear out.

  • @rem9882
    @rem9882 Před rokem +10

    I kept hearing that optane was best suited for the CXL implementation so its upsetting to hear that it'll be stopped just before CXL will be used

  • @idot148
    @idot148 Před rokem +3

    I didn't even know Optane was originally envisioned as an in-between RAM and CPU cache. Watching LTT and the like I thought it was just speedy cache for hard drives. Guess I learned something new today!

    • @redslate
      @redslate Před rokem

      Ah yes, Linus Tech Tips: the pinnacle of pseudo-professional technology demonstration.

  • @mapleveritas2698
    @mapleveritas2698 Před rokem +5

    We really wanted to get Optane memory. I wanted our databases to be on it. But it is simply too expensive for what it does. Instead, we just bought 1TB of RAM instead. The tradeoffs are better for that than Optane. We cached the whole database in RAM, more or less. Longer starting time, but I will take that.

  • @JBrinx18
    @JBrinx18 Před rokem +6

    It's pronounced Lee-high instead of Leh-he. I was at BYU in Provo and at STEM Fairs Micron would come and really push for interns or full time engineers to come and work at the plant. They had marketing material and everything, and the idea at the time was to speed up slow hard drives, which made sense at the time when ssds were still somewhat expensive

  • @jrherita
    @jrherita Před rokem +19

    Thanks for the take on this. 3DXPoint always felt significantly hamstrung by interface (hardware and software) to me.

    • @darknase
      @darknase Před rokem

      It was hamstrung by being defective by design.

  • @hipantcii
    @hipantcii Před rokem +15

    In my opinion the constant delays of Xeon SP killed optane. It wasn't too early it was too late. When it was initially planned to release there was no CXL and nand flash was still expensive and the write endurance was an issue.
    Now the price premium cannot be justified.

  • @unclerubo
    @unclerubo Před rokem +4

    Wendell is gonna be sad :(

  • @liaminwales
    @liaminwales Před rokem +12

    Was part of the Optane problem the software stack, was the software just to slow. I did see that level1tech video about intel redoing the driver stack and got massive gains.
    Optane, I always wanted to use you but never had the chance. RIP 2022.

  • @XenonG
    @XenonG Před rokem +9

    I was genuinely excited for the 3DxPoint stuff years ago, imagine no need for mass storage via NVMe, SATA or SAS for Workstations and NV storage via memory slotted in DIMM.

    • @RunForPeace-hk1cu
      @RunForPeace-hk1cu Před rokem +2

      there's always a need for storage. You can't load everything on the internet in local memory.
      Sadly, looks like HBM2 is also heading to the same outcome. Apple didn't use HBM memory to achieve the same throughput using LPDDR5X

    • @XenonG
      @XenonG Před rokem

      @@RunForPeace-hk1cu Yes, there is always a need for more storage. What I meant was for something like a local machine/workstation, a few hundred gigs to a few terabytes (based 2) having as fast as RAM non-volatile storage is a good thing. Having it lower/faster latency or similarly as low/fast latency as well is also good. Completely side stepping the need for another layer of cache (RAM in this case) can be beneficial for more speed and efficiency, especially when RAM needs continuous power to keep state compared to, well... non-volatile.

  • @sofia.eris.bauhaus
    @sofia.eris.bauhaus Před rokem +3

    1. company comes up with cool new technology.
    2. company doesn't know how to sell it.
    3. the technology dies.
    4. thanks, patents 😠.

  • @BlueChrome
    @BlueChrome Před rokem +5

    For completeness I feel you need to do a deep dive into HPs 'The Machine' and its Memristor memory technology.
    Its birth, gestation and then quietly being announced as dead on arrival as well, in not so many words. 😄

    • @Gractus
      @Gractus Před rokem

      Ah, so that’s what it was called. I was trying to remember the name but all I could think of was “The Cube” or “The Solid” or something along those lines.

    • @TheEVEInspiration
      @TheEVEInspiration Před rokem

      It was clear from the start it would fail!
      As the whole idea was terrible and guided by a blind ideology.
      That is, removing the distinction between the persisted state and the working state.
      Every tech/product that tries this, will fail.
      Only those that trust hard-and software to never produce any error, or otherwise unwanted result, believe it will work and try to make it!

  • @salmiakki5638
    @salmiakki5638 Před rokem +2

    "Liqid might be shedding some tears"
    Me too honestly

  • @cracklingice
    @cracklingice Před rokem +1

    It sucks so much that Optane never made it to a price where a consumer version of the P5800X would have made sense.

  • @Supadupanerd
    @Supadupanerd Před rokem +6

    To me the product never really lived up to the marketing. Initially intended as cache, but it's supported platforms were limited and it didn't even really perform well compared to just replacing HDD with ssd instead

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem +3

      Again people are talking about different Optane products. You are talking abut the caching SSD. Yes that was pointless. The more expensive add-in models were awesome tho.

    • @revdarian
      @revdarian Před rokem

      Yes, at the enterprise level it was amazing for the latency /iops, but for almost everyone else it soon became redundant at best.

  • @CraftComputing
    @CraftComputing Před rokem +2

    I'm digging the K6-2 CPU in your Cache/Latency diagram 😀

    • @lucasrem
      @lucasrem Před rokem

      AMD is gone, you love TSMC now?

  • @casperes0912
    @casperes0912 Před rokem +3

    I would've loved a nice Optane setup. I have ideas for other ways of running it than the Memory and App Direct modes with the kernel just allowing two different mmap for RAM vs. Optane mapping. Allowing it to work like normal memory but with the application deciding what goes where

  • @Mister-Tea
    @Mister-Tea Před rokem +4

    Wendel from Level1Techs is certainly very sad since Intel announced this...

  • @xeon_1705
    @xeon_1705 Před rokem

    we are using it in our main database server and i love it. (storage variant)
    Sad to see it go ,was hoping that in a couple years it would be cheap enough that i could place it in the plant database servers.

  • @AnIdiotAboard_
    @AnIdiotAboard_ Před rokem +2

    Bit late to this, but we invested HEAVILY on optaine, and intels sudden cancellation of it has caused a headache of huge proportions. All the servers were gonna now HAVE to scrapp because we can no long rely on the supply chains.
    Invested since 2016 - 18.72 Million
    Scrap Value Today - Shreddies.
    Still I can finally get rid of the last of our intel systems.

  • @Farren246
    @Farren246 Před rokem

    I got to #3 and my brain began to hurt, and it just kept going... Intel, what were you thinking?!

  • @HardOCPTV
    @HardOCPTV Před rokem

    Just when I thought I knew everything! ;) Great job Ian.

  • @MarkBarrett
    @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

    The processor cache, would be the new RAM, for intake from the SSD array.
    You'd have terabytes of accessible memory from a Raid array of many PCI-E lanes. (All of it, nearly at once.)
    The RAM would do write caching and when data change is pending.

    • @MarkBarrett
      @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

      I know you're going to say RAM can give you the data sooner.
      If it has it, sure.
      But Terabytes of all data being accessible, is a total game changer.
      CPU cache will be a factor.

  • @50shadesofbeige88
    @50shadesofbeige88 Před rokem +2

    This was a really good idea, and I'm surprised to see them discontinue it. It SHOULD have been a game changer

  • @MarkBarrett
    @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

    Honestly, even when RAM increases their transactions per second (referred to wrongly as GHz, their latency timing goes up by the same amount. RAM has not reduced latency, only increased bandwidth, nearly at the rate it increases with size.)
    You could have 128GB memory, and 24TB in NVME.

  • @aliceif4597
    @aliceif4597 Před rokem

    I have to say, the 16GB Optane + 1TB HDD combo in my 2019 Lenovo Ideapad 330S worked surprisingly well. Hardly any of the usual symptoms of running recent versions of Windows off a conventional harddrive.

  • @millosolo
    @millosolo Před rokem +1

    There is something to be said about programming models and legacy. A lot of big data applications, engines, databases already use storage optimized data structures, packed data and block oriented management. In case of Java they even dump memory safety to unlock their performance goals. Also a major trend is clustering disfavouring beefier stand-alone machines. And as a programmer it is quite a feat finding that your app or concrete workload benefit of a unique sweetspot provided by just one manufacturer. The computing landscape is vast though.

  • @triadwarfare
    @triadwarfare Před rokem +3

    Intel had squandered Optane by making it only a glorified HDD cache for consumers and Intel exclusive.
    Had they opened the tech to AMD and let it compete as an SSD, they would have probably been more successful.

  • @owlmostdead9492
    @owlmostdead9492 Před rokem +8

    Whoever came up with the 16Gb Cache drives was a moron and ruined the perception and branding of optane. They should have sold them as enterprise grade scratch drives for creative workflows.

    • @m_sedziwoj
      @m_sedziwoj Před rokem

      We know that Intel have terrible management... And closing it to only own platform is problem too.

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem +1

      Agreed. Even in comments here and elsewhere people lament Optane for being terrible because of these cache drives that no one needed or asked for.

    • @edwardtan1354
      @edwardtan1354 Před rokem

      thing is didnt they have 1TB optane drives? or 250GB but literally is a PCIE card

    • @m_sedziwoj
      @m_sedziwoj Před rokem

      @@edwardtan1354 for enterprise for crazy money... this is why I think it would be good to open it, because more people working on this technology, cheaper should become.

    • @edwardtan1354
      @edwardtan1354 Před rokem

      @@m_sedziwoj I mean if LTT has it... then it could be consumer or enterprise solutions... so we will never know... but with Micron backing out with no one to manufacture the 3DXP memory chips the next best solution is to use NVMe software solutions

  • @BoredErica
    @BoredErica Před rokem +2

    Maybe i should snag some optane before they go fully extinct.

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem

      Collectors item for sure.

  • @marcin_karwinski
    @marcin_karwinski Před rokem +2

    Pity they haven't tried going with an altered use-case - instead of developping CPUs which work with DIMM slots they could have prepared a more SoC comprehensive package with eg. 32-128+GB of "on package" high speed memory, eg. HBMe, for the compute intensive layer of data storage with the DIMMs delegaated to serving the purpose of NVDIMMs/Optane DCPDIMMs for slightly slower but larger mem pools and/or fast storage, whilst delegating all the PCIe lanes to extra controllers/accelerators/functionalities... a kind of a switch or shift in technological stacks that could have made success or at least that could have questioned the status quo. Heck, maybe somewhere down the line nVidia decides to buy the IP and they manage to extend their Grace+Hopper product stack with the proviso of the high speed RAM on package that's vastly superior to DIMMs, which then would serve the purpose of large mem pool providers for the compute intensive workloads DC (and possibly workstation) businesses are targeting.

  • @zyxwvutsrqponmlkh
    @zyxwvutsrqponmlkh Před rokem +1

    IDK, are high optane fuels really worth the cost? I heard somewhere you can add your own additives to your gas tank to make it high optane, the brand I was recommended was called liquid shwartz and when put in an electric camper van makes it go plad.

  • @vasudevmenon2496
    @vasudevmenon2496 Před rokem +1

    I was really excited when optane came up in Anandtech benchmark giving consistent random r/w speed and very expensive. I really thought their 2nd gen and future optane products will make affordable and high capacity across any platform say armv64,amd64 or risc. This would make optane worth investing but everything is out of the window for consumers

  • @waldmensch2010
    @waldmensch2010 Před rokem +1

    optane dcpmm was a cool feature for server system for sap/4hana but very expensive. we will see what brings cxl 2.0

  • @joeyjojojr.shabadoo915

    With cheap Optane modules available and all new motherboards featuring a ton of NVME slots, I was looking forward to building a new 13th Gen system using it and really tweaking a 13600k system for productivity. Will 13th gen support Optane still ? or is it dead on the desktop now also ?

  • @chameleonfreak
    @chameleonfreak Před rokem +2

    I know it wasn't really a consumer product to begin with, but I would have really liked to have a moderately-sized PCIE 4.0 Optane drive. But they never came...

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem

      Yeah there was one M.2 version based on PCIe 3.0 (22110 form) but the rest were either 2.5" or PCIe cards.

  • @JohnWilliams-gy5yc
    @JohnWilliams-gy5yc Před rokem +1

    I send my condolescence to pmem. Near-RAM latency and byte addressibility has some potential if only the price had not been this ridiculous. Its use cases are very narrow for this price point.
    The pmem will be back some day when its killer application rises and that market becomes big enough to lure competition from big players.

  • @iyke8913
    @iyke8913 Před rokem

    Ian, can you tell me what brand U.2 to pcie adapter you are using for your Optane SSD's?

  • @Cooe.
    @Cooe. Před rokem

    4:40 *Lehi ("Lee-hi"), Utah; not "Leti/Lehee". That once "IM Flash" fab is literally blocks from my house. Texas Instruments owns it now and makes analog semi's there.

  • @matthewdev
    @matthewdev Před rokem +1

    I'm sad they discontinued it, the 905p was punching a lot above its weight in random r/w, would've loved to see a consumer version of the p5800x

  • @rjhacker
    @rjhacker Před rokem

    I was excited to see some enterprise database performance benefit, but the stuff that really helps the performance tends to be just fine with volatile memory.

  • @lupintheiii3055
    @lupintheiii3055 Před rokem +3

    Good video, what I really would like to know is:
    How does this effects Aurora? Wasn't it supposed to sport Optane in conjunction with SPR+HBM2??

    • @TechTechPotato
      @TechTechPotato  Před rokem +3

      I don't remember Aurora having Optane as well. I know Optane was meant to be supported with SPR+HBM, but I don't think Aurora was having any

    • @rapamune
      @rapamune Před rokem +3

      @@TechTechPotato Why did Intel push the 16gig cache drives so hard, despite desktop users wanting SSDs? These drivers work wonders in games such as Star Citizen..

  • @MarkBarrett
    @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

    The idea of using Terabyte SSDs as RAM memory, is a genius idea.
    People have and will again do it.

    • @MarkBarrett
      @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

      I would use RAM as a write cache, for a RAID NVME SSD primary access point.
      Data processing would be orders of magnitude higher.
      More cores, more PCI-E lanes.

    • @MarkBarrett
      @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

      Notice I reversed the RAM and NVME SSD roles.

  • @RobBCactive
    @RobBCactive Před rokem +1

    Optane initially sounds amazing, but as it's slower than DRAM and data centres keep servers up, running, it seems too niche to gain the scale necessary in the market to be viable. You can memory map in data from disk files for example, write accelerators can use battery backed DRAM, SSDs can save state powered by capacitors.
    So it really needed to deliver on the speed, density and cost hype; while also being ultra reliable. That sounds like a tall order for a new product facing mature technologies with much more R&D behind them.

  • @ignore_for_your_sanity
    @ignore_for_your_sanity Před 3 měsíci

    Nothing will usurp the hegemony of the MIC.

  • @homercles79
    @homercles79 Před rokem

    Minor correction: The Micron fab is in Lehi (pronounced lee-high) Utah.

  • @philipp594
    @philipp594 Před rokem +4

    I really would love a p5800x ... 4k$ is just too insane.

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem +1

      There is the 400GB 1,5k model.

    • @philipp594
      @philipp594 Před rokem

      @@Raivo_K That's no good in 2022.

  • @m_sedziwoj
    @m_sedziwoj Před rokem +1

    From beginning: we have storage device and CPU, we have ram and caches to lower time to access for data read/write from this storage. Because this is Von Neumann architecture ;)

    • @m_sedziwoj
      @m_sedziwoj Před rokem

      BTW why we have RAM is more about past and how storage device look like (punch cards :D) than is required today (swap), but is different topic.

    • @GeekProdigyGuy
      @GeekProdigyGuy Před rokem +1

      Non-Von Neumann architectures are unsuitable for general purpose computing. They are being adopted for GPUs, media encoders, network/storage/custom accelerators... But they would not suffice for a CPU, which is still effectively necessary because (1) all the code that has ever been written still needs to be run and (2) it is simply totally infeasible to train programmers to target a dozen completely different compute paradigms just to do basic functions - multithreading is already too hard!

    • @FreeOfFantasy
      @FreeOfFantasy Před rokem

      A Harvard architecture has separate data and instruction caches. Like basically all modern CPUs have in L1. Modern processors are hybrids and caches are an implementation detail, compiler need to know about them for optimum performance but it will work without caches at all.

    • @m_sedziwoj
      @m_sedziwoj Před rokem

      @@FreeOfFantasy separate data and instruction in storage system was in computers too, but it nightmare, so treating instruction as data in storage was great move, but as you wrote, L1 is splitting it because this close to processing units, it good for optimization. But if you want processor could work without caches, but it would have 1/1000000 of performance or less. Interesting architectures are design for AI, because you know flow of instructions and data before (Neural Network topology) so you may put right data at right time, without requesting it.

  • @Metalcastr
    @Metalcastr Před rokem +4

    Enterprise customers really liked Optane, and were willing to pay where time is money, and/or where boatloads of RAM was too expensive for the use case. There were reports put out available to read online, published by enterprise users of Optane.
    Also database teams really love it, as mentioned in the video.
    I have it in my pc, it's literally the best upgrade I've ever done, in terms of pc responsiveness.

  • @2dozen22s
    @2dozen22s Před rokem +1

    If it was cheaper than dram, then licensing it out to ssd manufactures to use optane chips instead of dram would have been neat.
    It's pretty sad its coming to a close, it had a lot of potential. Would have loved a large ssd like that I could hammer away at and never kill.

  • @Ty_Neadik
    @Ty_Neadik Před rokem

    Abstraction? folks: Cache is like your nightstand where you put what you are currently reading, your personal library/bookcase are more like ram, the public library is your Hard Drive.

  • @eelaeshi4057
    @eelaeshi4057 Před rokem

    The fab is located in Lehi, not Leti.

  • @ankur313
    @ankur313 Před rokem +2

    Very sad when technology is put on hold because of money!! :(

  • @MarkoCloud
    @MarkoCloud Před rokem

    CXL 2.0 - the last nail in the Optane coffin.

  • @DGao-zz5vq
    @DGao-zz5vq Před rokem +5

    Unfortunately this is all too common for Intel. They launch a promising / technically interesting product, doesn’t get the immediate commercial success they were hoping for, they cut losses and cancel the follow up. Knights Landing, Compute Cards, Kaby Lake-G, Lakefield, the list goes on.

  • @El.Duder-ino
    @El.Duder-ino Před rokem +1

    Only if we could have non volatile memory fast as cache and as close as possible to the processor... unfortunately this is at least for now unrealistic, but its clear that memory access speed/latency and bandwidth is crucial as Apple has confirmed with their Mx chips. Processors need to get as fastest unified memory as close to them as possible. Seeing it to be one day as non volatile would be miracle, but who knows, maybe we will get there...

  • @m_sedziwoj
    @m_sedziwoj Před rokem +4

    I hope Intel licence they patents for 3D X point technology, because for me this technology don't get enough development to take place, and where are places (specialized) where it would be much better than flash.

    • @m_sedziwoj
      @m_sedziwoj Před rokem

      @n n do you even know what is different in this technology compare to flash (NAND)? It more similar to transition from vacuum tubes to transistors, than from DUV to EUV. Ofc maybe it would never perform as we hope, but without research you will never know. And a lot of performance we know left on table, if I remember correctly they don't even go to read full line, only one cell at once.

  • @AlexSchendel
    @AlexSchendel Před 7 měsíci

    A real myriad of issues that plagued such a great technology :(
    Would've been incredible if 3DXPoint could've continued development. The IOPs, latency, and endurance were truly incredible. Tons of issues with the Micron agreement on the fab you mentioned and all sorts of development issues in general...

  • @movax20h
    @movax20h Před rokem

    They should have targeted just replacing NAND flash completly, which simplify a lot of things. But to do that you need big capacity and low cost. Another option would be to use it as a journal or write ahead log for file system or databases, accelerating writes, but then you could do the same with just RAM and battery backup.
    Also now it is killed, it would be nicest if they open all related patents.

  • @anthonywilliams7052
    @anthonywilliams7052 Před rokem +1

    Lookup Intel Terahertz, 1000GH CPU with 10,000 times less leakage, lower power and ran cooler with their "special sauce" they said. Yet 21 years later it's still not used?

  • @g.4279
    @g.4279 Před rokem

    I just recently had my Windows install on an H10 basically nuke itself. I was using Optane as a a cache for the SSD portion, and for whatever reason that relationship got corrupted or something and now it won't detect the main SSD portion. I need to get an m.2 enclosure and see if I can salvage my files from another computer. Left a bad taste in my mouth honestly. The little 32gb M.2 Optane drives were nice for FreeNAS installs but the caching/acceleration feature seems to be designed really poorly IMO since it seems like running RAID 0. If something goes wrong with one portion or there is a software bug with the relationship it all falls apart.

  • @DTrain4711
    @DTrain4711 Před rokem

    Only couple of year's i wanted an Optane module to speed up my HDDs. Because at this time, a big ssd was much to expensive for me.
    Then came amd with it's software solution , where you could use every cheap small 128GB SSD to speed up the HDD by using it as cache. This I also didn't by ;-)
    At the end (four years later) I bought my new PC with a real 500GB ssd, and since then (2018?), i use only SSD in PCs, and HDDs in the NAS :-)

  • @LiveType
    @LiveType Před rokem +2

    I personally love optane. It makes a difference when using it as a boot/cache drive. Super snappy. Sad to see it go. Hopefully a replacement shows up in the future.

    • @greggmacdonald9644
      @greggmacdonald9644 Před rokem +2

      Do you have it in your system now?

    • @LiveType
      @LiveType Před rokem

      @@greggmacdonald9644 Yep a used 380gb 905p I got for $350 1.5 years ago. I considered it a steal back then. So far I haven't seen pricing quite that good as I guess these drives are extremely rare to find out in the wild. I've got faster sequential throughput drives but nothing can match the latency of this thing.

    • @RobBCactive
      @RobBCactive Před rokem +1

      @@LiveType there's not many people who would pay the extra for a low capacity very expensive drive rather than an NVME SSD, boot times are just seconds compared to Vista days when boot often took several minutes.

  • @TechLevelUpOfficial
    @TechLevelUpOfficial Před rokem +3

    What a shame really, Optane was a really good product especially the storage solution, that low latency and endurance is hard to rival.

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem +2

      Also amazing 4K r/w performance that even PCIe 5.0 based NAND will likely not surpass. Another thing i liked was parallelism. Regardless of capacity there was never a big speed drop off or speed boost. With NAND you need at least 1TB to achieve the best performance because the smaller 250GB-500GB models can lose half the performance.

    • @TechLevelUpOfficial
      @TechLevelUpOfficial Před rokem

      @@Raivo_K exactly, I am really sad that optane is no more. Wish someone else will pick this technology up and keep developing it further especially the storage solution.

  • @depth386
    @depth386 Před rokem

    Optane was in my planned upgrade path, I have a 9900K and a big Samsung SATA SSD

  • @vireshkashetti514
    @vireshkashetti514 Před rokem

    Can we say CPU registers are also a type of storage? I mean registers do store values.

  • @stuartlunsford7556
    @stuartlunsford7556 Před rokem +1

    We really need an upgrade to NAND, I really hoped optane would fill the gap. The durability and seemingly effortless increase in channels/bandwidth is just so damn good.

  • @MrMysticphantom
    @MrMysticphantom Před rokem +12

    Optane reminds me of Intel's Itanium. That shit was ahead of its time in a sense, plus it was failing at points precisely due to breaking new ground. Now the Optane situation has an eerily similar vibe. Its not my money I know, but they really should have stuck with it, just like Intel lost the initial x64 to AMD as they werent ready to even minimally maintain the damn thing.

    • @RobBCactive
      @RobBCactive Před rokem +1

      Itanic was always awful, an attempt by Intel to have a 64bit monopoly. AMD64 did what programmers wanted, was able to run 32bit binaries native so evolved Windows forward without relying on magic optimising compilers to VLIW that were impossible to write.

    • @kelownatechkid
      @kelownatechkid Před rokem +1

      Eh, I disagree. Optane is just better, however it's expensive. Itanium sucked in many ways

    • @ABaumstumpf
      @ABaumstumpf Před rokem +2

      ​@@RobBCactive "Itanic was always awful"
      It was way faster and more efficient. the "awful" part was that it broke with x86 and initially only had very slow x86 emulation.
      But it solved many of the problems that x86-64 still has.
      "without relying on magic optimising compilers to VLIW that were impossible to write."
      Yeah, just that compilers now are way more complicated and capable than ia64 ever required.

    • @RobBCactive
      @RobBCactive Před rokem

      @@ABaumstumpf that was one system everyone hated, it was overpriced and killed by better tech once Intel recognised their failure.

    • @radivojevasiljevic3145
      @radivojevasiljevic3145 Před rokem

      Itanium was chocked by low bandwidth and Intel put too much on software pipelining (versus just loop unrolling, whole cyclic vs acyclic scheduling story) and full prediction, but probably the worst was all mess with bundles. But floating point arithmetic abilities and algorithms Intel developed with HP for division and square root were top notch and one of greatest achievements, unfortunately, mostly unknown to general IT public.

  • @boringtextreviews
    @boringtextreviews Před rokem +1

    Leh-hee? LEH-HEE??!
    Lehi, UT is pronounced "Lee-High" ;)

  • @davidgunther8428
    @davidgunther8428 Před rokem +1

    With loss of the manufacturing center and the development center I don't see what else could have happened.

  • @sezwo5774
    @sezwo5774 Před 10 měsíci

    Is it good as of 2023 as a caching drive in front of a big cheap SATA SSD? I am an average consumer pondering buying one of those inexpensive sticks being sold now on Newegg/E-bay. Is it worth it for a SATA SSD not an HD drive. Anyone, please? I have no need for NVME just interested in speeding up old SATA technology on the cheap. My mobo supports Optane.

  • @IAmPattycakes
    @IAmPattycakes Před rokem

    I've got a workload that absolutely thrashes disk if it's not cached in RAM. And it's much easier to dump a couple TB of Optane into a box than it is to get a couple TB of RAM. I guess I just hope Samsung Z-NAND catches up.

    • @Raivo_K
      @Raivo_K Před rokem

      I've only seen a single Z-NAND model in retail and that was years ago. Im not sure Samsung even makes it anymore. Kioxia still makes XL-FLASH that is essentially the same (both are SLC).

  • @ABaumstumpf
    @ABaumstumpf Před rokem

    Would have liked it in my personal rig but the price was insane while persistent memory was not available. It was either get a 32GB optane SSD to "speedup" a HDD, or get a 250 GB SSD and still use it to speed up the HDD or just directly use it.
    We would have liked it at work but again - was not available for laptops, hard to get for servers and then they cut it off. We have workloads that do only sporadically requires loading a lot of data - right now this is all on normal SSDs and you get significant slowdowns but adding more memory is just not worth it (direct costs as well as power) or for the bigger instalments just not possible (1.5TB limit).

  • @MarkBarrett
    @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

    I would use RAM as a write cache, for a RAID NVME SSD primary access point.
    Data processing would be orders of magnitude higher.
    More cores, more PCI-E lanes.

    • @MarkBarrett
      @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci +1

      Notice I reversed the RAM and NVME SSD roles.

    • @MarkBarrett
      @MarkBarrett Před 10 měsíci

      The processor cache, would be the new RAM, for intake from the SSD array.
      You'd have terabytes of accessible memory from a Raid array of many PCI-E lanes. (All of it, nearly at once.)
      The RAM would do write caching and when data change is pending.

  • @the14u36
    @the14u36 Před rokem +2

    They killed it their self by not making it work on all pcs. Could of made billions off of that

    • @fbifido2
      @fbifido2 Před rokem

      this is the simple FACT, and very true 🤣🤣🤣

  • @danshost5817
    @danshost5817 Před rokem

    Looked all over the internet & couldn't find a clear answer to my question. Hoping you might shed some light.
    I've decided to try to breathe some new life into my laptop that has only 8 GB soldered RAM by adding the Optane Memory Series (what you call cache drive) into a second M.2 slot for multitasking: Chrome/Adobe Acrobat/Office running all the time in parallel eating up all my memory.
    I wanted to get the 32GB version of the Optane Memory but bumped into this on a non-Intel website & couldn't find a confirmation or disproof of it anywhere else: "You must use the M10 version of Optane Memory. The original version of Optane Memory will only be supported in a desktop environment".
    Do you happen to know whether a non-M10 Optane Memory Series drive should work on a laptop? If not, I'll have to stick to the 16GB version as supplies are scarce at this point.
    Thanks in advance!
    P.s. I know Intel has stopped supporting this product for consumers & am ready to experiment with setting this thing up.
    P.p.s. thanks for the video!

    • @TechTechPotato
      @TechTechPotato  Před rokem +1

      Any size M.2 drive that physically fits will work, whatever capacity of drive. They say that only the 16 GB is supported on the basis of their validation and guarantee, but the beauty of open standards is that whatever conforms to the standard should work effortlessly. But just to confirm here - the Optane cache drive won't add DRAM - it'll just be seen as another storage device. Intel called it 'optane memory', but it's just storage. Might as well add in 1TB M.2 drive.

  • @shreyaaas
    @shreyaaas Před rokem

    My m.2 ssd speeds were higher than that optane memory 😂

  • @nickloh912
    @nickloh912 Před rokem

    Look on the bright side, the Pyramid of Optane will no longer be around to haunt your dreams.

  • @Casper042
    @Casper042 Před rokem

    Crow Pass is likely still coming

  • @Stars-Mine
    @Stars-Mine Před rokem

    I know it wasnt the initial plan, but I HONESTLY think for consumers, rather then treating it as ram, it should have been used to accelerate HDD.
    Gaming focused drives, like Western Digital black, could easily justify costing 50 dollars more on the 4-6TB models, by adding 16-32GB of optane on the drives. and still be cheaper then a 2TB SSD, so people could actually download a couple of games from their steam library without breaking the bank for a large SSD.

  • @zbigniewmalec4816
    @zbigniewmalec4816 Před rokem +8

    Optane DCPMM had few serious issues. It required more expensive high memory limit Xeon CPUs. It wasn't really that much cheaper - i'd say that this 2x less price per gb was compared to lrdimms or 3ds lrdimms, which are much more expensive than standard rdimms. Last but not least the performance in comparison to memory is abbysmal - there is a whitepaper from Lenovo regarding the tests for SAP Hana. Afair IT showed 50% less speed. All in all if you need more memory than standard x86 can give you, the power PC looks really well.

  • @RogerBarraud
    @RogerBarraud Před rokem

    Pay no attention to the chalcoglass behind the curtain :'(

  • @deth3021
    @deth3021 Před rokem

    Kinda suprised that cxl wasn't the breakout tech for 3d cross point.

  • @joevm3
    @joevm3 Před rokem

    Love the video. It was not too early. The overall package and go-to-market failed but the industry needs this type of technology. If the manufacturing costs could be low enough it would be standard in every computer. This tech would allow a new class of machine with only non volatile memory so it could idle with almost no power consumption.

  • @casperes0912
    @casperes0912 Před rokem

    Your key framing was a bit off on the graphics there. They faded in and out pretty immediately

  • @thesun6211
    @thesun6211 Před rokem

    It's a pity SKHynix isn't and Micron didn't do more with the 3DXPoint Tech; Performance-wise the Optane Memory-based SSDs were the fastest Storage short of a RAMDisk in the m.2 Form Factor, even if the difference between Optane and TLC/QLC wasn't highly perceptible to the average End User (who would've been on a Spinning Disk or SATA-based SSD at the time anyway).

  • @markm0000
    @markm0000 Před rokem

    Optane should have been a "Prosumer" type of product that boosted SSDs performance. For enterprise a drop in replacement for RAM at half the cost and no worry for power loss would have been an amazing value. You wouldn't have to keep every single server on a UPS.

  • @heywood955
    @heywood955 Před rokem +1

    Seems to me Intel was lying to investors about Optane's future even after Micron sold Lehi Utah fab to Texas Instruments. Instead of coming clean, they perpetuated this ambiguity for almost a year.

  • @byteme0000
    @byteme0000 Před rokem +9

    Ever since I heard about Optane years ago when it was first introduced, I’ve always suspected that it wasn’t going to go anywhere and would eventually disappear. I think that the major problem was that your average person, and even your average PC enthusiast, just didn’t really understand it. Intel did a lousy job of marketing that technology. Year after year, it remained a mystery to most folks, and so there was never a grassroots buy-in for it.

  • @CoryMT
    @CoryMT Před rokem +1

    I'm sad to hear this news. I had high hopes for Optane endurance and performance, even if it didn't live up to Intel's initial promises.
    Since they have been keeping information about yields secret, that may have been the issue. But I find it unfortunate that they viewed it as a value add to their own processors instead of focusing more on it as its own product.