The Storage of the Gods: A Deep Dive Into the Intel Optane P5800X
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2021
- www.amazon.com/dp/B08XMS493G/?...
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Using an Optane SSD for your boot drive makes things like Windows Updates, Windows Disk Cleanup, software installs, etc. go insanely fast.
Yes, but if you use Optane as a cache for NVMe NAND as a cache for SAS NAND, then you're pretty much at the penthouse of insanity already, right?
@@jeschinstad man, i think you're on to something here... THAT WOULD ME GREAT
As fast as linux?
Yea, my boot drive is an Optane H10 500G ssd with 32G of Optane memory. For my junk drive (steam games) I have a 380 GB Optane 905P dedicated as cache (PrimoCache) for a 16TB, 2 hdd raid 0 array with just Steam games. I have many TB of games so this amazingly works out.
I have a WD Black SD850 with 7 GB/s.... i wonder if there would be any benefits with building a Optane 32 GB accelerator module into a second M.2 slot? Or would it even be slowing the system down?
Optane is one of the coolest technologies out there at this point.
Too bad they botched the messaging and support for some of the best use cases. For quite some time I was setting up laptops with a cheap 2TB SATA SSD cached to a 58GB 800p Optane drive and these systems were both cheaper than 2TB NVMe systems and snappier. Intel really should have promoted and supported this configuration.
Really disappointed that the 815p and M15 drives got canceled, I had plans for those drives.
I would love to see some benchmarks on different types of filesystems and cache solutions such as Bcache vs LVM block cache vs ZFS special device/read cache/ZIL
To see how each of them handles the Optane
7:53 forgot about the speed - the Endurance is the most remarkable thing in this drive! Definitely worth the money! :)
I'm still not over the disappointment that Intel stopped with the consumer M.2 optane drives. Such a interesting technology, but the enterprise stuff is just a bit to expensive for me.
I agree, I hope they get back to client drives in the next few years.
2:28 I don't think my speakers have ever made that sound before... Awesome video as usual 👍
boss NAS
Finally! Proper coverage of this product. I knew I could count on you.
Finally! I've been looking forward to this! Thank you!
buy yourself the 1.6 terabyte one spoil yourself boy
I have 280gb u.2 optane as a boot and it's lovely.
I use it for local Jenkins testing, it's so snappy compared to 970 Evo.
Also the heatsinks on them are beautiful.
I'm writing go mainly if people are wondering.
I have four of them in my workstation and one for the OS in my gaming rig. I kinda went Optane crazy at one point.
I’m not doing enterprise stuff at all, but in the pursuit of ‘the best’ I bought a 905P a few years ago. And while I don’t do much intense data processing, the experience is still noticeably different from a modern, premium NAND SSD. That’s mostly down to the low latency. The whole computer feels much snapper - something a CPU or RAM upgrade would have a hard time to match. It also spoils you, because literally anything else feels slow in comparison.
Optane is sooo cool. I remember back when my parents got me my most recent laptop a few years back w/ a HDD and optane cache, and honestly, the boot speed and app load times were indistinguishable from an SSD. It really is awesome!
I love how animated you were in this video haha
Keep up the great work, love the reviews!
It looks to me like this eliminates the last 'weak link' inside a modern computer - the fact that it can saturate PCIe4 and do enough operations to keep busy CPUs and RAM means this brings us one step closer to the 'speed of software'. How does it compare to a DDR4 ramdisk and how much cheaper is it?
Id be interesting to know the RAMdisk question.
DDR4 RAM has a latency of something like 12ns compared to 20us for the p5800x, so performance-wise there's still a huge gap. but of course the more important question is how much "dead time" it contributes to a given workload - RAM might be 1000x lower latency but there are probably well over 1000x reads/writes to RAM vs persistent storage in most workloads.
The last weak link is my wallet!
Using three Optanes in my build. Love em.
I did some testing with Intel disks awhile ago, and their testing guide has you TRIM the entire disk and write over it completely multiple times to ensure you're seeing the full impact of any underlying garbage collection and such when measuring performance. This is to try and approximate the performance of a disk that has been in usage for awhile.
This product really took your breath literally !
I actually use a little 16GB Optane as my swap space. Overkill I'm sure, but it works great. :)
I've used 905P and 900P drives as boot and work drives on multiple AMD and Intel desktops and they've been amazing. Compilation projects and large database queries and workloads even from cold with limited RAM is amazing. Is a shame the prices have kept going up.
do you notice a meaningful difference between the 900 and 905??
I am looking at having tiered storage with an optane drive and a sata ssd, but can only find cheap 900 series drives on ebay, the 905s are considerably more expensive
i want one so bad :D
@@sebastianguerraty6413 nope, I haven't noticed any difference between the 905P and 900P drives. They're within single digit percentage levels raw performance wise IIRC. Considering how incredibly low the latency is for both, I'd just buy whichever is available or cheapest.
@@callums____ Thanks for the answer :D
My dream was to get one of these, but the price and requirement to use a u.2 to pcie adapter convinced me to go the p900 route, also I wont be doing anything where the difference would be worth paying like 5 times what the old solution would cost.
This is really made to store write logs or transaction logs, and have NAND for bulk storage in Ceph or Storage Spaces Direct. This basically completely removes the write latency penalty since once the write is logged to a super fast device, the SAN can return to the user.
I'd love to see some database benchmarks using this drive. I think I saw somewhere there was an OLTP benchmark that was throughput under QOS based, and I think Optane would rock for that, not just for log drive but also data drive. Of course, data drives don't really matter if the entire DB fits in the RAM (page buffer pool), but if your DB is larger than say 256GB, then a P5800X could give you very good throughput at QOS even with standard edition SQL (enterprise costs 3-4x more than standard, so if you have 8-16+ cores, that license difference is way more than a P5800X).
I'd love to see a full video on primocache?
How does it work, how to set it up?
Are there any risks regarding data loss?
I saw it on Dave's Garage the other day and was pretty interested!
Data loss risk depends on your settings. You can turn write defer off so everything gets written immediately. In the other extreme you can set write defer to "infinite". You have two cache levels, L1 is RAM and L2 is typically a dedicated drive or just a partition. I use 12GB RAM and an old SATA SSD that used to be a system drive to cache the spinning rust that is my game RAID. As far as I can tell haven't had data loss that can be traced to PrimoCache, nor has it *ever* crashed.
one thing not mentioned is VDI. pooled VDI desktops use a common image and use a "linked clone" image to multiple virtual machines.
be nice to see this in use with VDI with vSAN as the cache tier
Great video Wendell!, watching this with a Samsung 983 ZET as my main storage. I wonder if Samsung will release a 2nd generation of ZET.
I knew how much you love Optane
I realy like the review, please do chia plotting video! thanks
I'm using my Optane 900P 280GB in PCIe form-factor as the main drive for my Linux self-built AMD workstation. No complaints!
Good point about this drive not really being designed as your primary drive. When you pay $1,500 per terabyte, you're basically paying $10-$15 just for a clean install of Windows (from a wasted storage standpoint).
I bet this drive (if they made a smaller one) would be kick-ass as a ZFS slog / cache setup. I'm really curious what the Q1 IOPS are though. If latency really gets down to 10 microseconds, that's going to be some insane Q1 IOPS.
I think a budget build NAS using the original 3.0 x 2 modules would be interesting.
Storage is the most exciting topic for me. Do you have any plans to cover nvdimm?
Would really like that Star Citizen code from the Optane 900p you have on the desk! lol
From Wikipedia : “In 2021, Intel discontinued its consumer line of Optane products,[30] and in July 2022, Intel announced the winding down of the Optane division, effectively discontinuing the development of 3D XPoint.”
So, Optane (3D XPoint) aren’t available anymore?
17:30 Some things I would like to see tested are things like LBA format. If you set it to use 4k sectors would it work better? Intel arc says this supports encryption. Is that able to be configured? Does updating the firmware make it faster? idk
every time I see you talk about how you like optane I remember how MLID said it was trash on his podcast with you
Man I’m not sure why I became an electrician people with skills like yours have got to be in super high demand.
I put 4 905P 22110 Optane drives in VROC RAID 0 on an Asus Hyper 16x. The performance is pretty insane but you need to run fast low latency RAM and your CPU OCed as far as you can to take advantage of the array. Running stock CPU and RAM speed pulls 4KQ1T1 speed down by as much as 40%.
Do you mean VROC RAID 0 make 4KQ1T1 speed worse?
@@exilonone No, running a stock CPU and JEDEC RAM will slow VROC down.
With my CPU OCed and fast RAM set to XMP, VROC speed went up a lot.
@@nosirrahx I know that VROC increase 32K and more sequental read. But I'v heard the 4K Q1T1 speed is slow down. Is it true?
@@exilonone That is an artifact of RAID in general. VROC is not as bad as more conventional RAID, but 4KQ1T1 is always going to be slower than an individual drive when in any kind of RAID.
With my workstation overclocked, I get over 200MB/S for 4KQ1T1 but that is only because I am using Optane drives, which are close to 300MB/S on their own.
Doing VROC with NAND based drives, I doubt you could get over 60MB/S for 4KQ1T1.
@@nosirrahx thank you for clarifying. It's important for my workstation.
You can probably move the hiberfil.sys file to the optane drive to improve bootspeed without installing Windows to it.
1:20 Spent my own money on... Looks at price... :(
Hey, With Windows 11 around the corner, which is suppose to bring the new DirectStorage feature, I wonder if it will take full advantage of this drive. Just imagine how insane that would be.
Could you test how this performances as a single boot drive in a zen3 system? I bought the Gigabyte B550 Vision D to connect mine directly to the cpu, but the performance wasn't improved over my Intel platform where I connected it to the chipset.
I wish my Killer NIC on my z590 Asrock Velocita didn't die intermittently. I switched to other NIC, no problems at all.
LoL love the tide pods in the martini glass.
what _does_ it look like as a zfs special device? maybe dual partitioned as cache too plus small blocks?
Mmmmmmmmm, Optane.
go on buy the 1.6 terabyte one you can do it I believe in you I do I believe in you
I just got me three new systems man
Two i3 12th Gens
And a i3 10th Gen
These new Intel machines at the i3 level are amazing
I tossed in Optane modules in the 10th gen just to cache a hard drive
Along with an Intel 670p 2tb NVMe PCIe 3.0 SSD
Absolutely loving the 10th gen maybe way more than the newer 12th gens
Those are going to my wife and my daughter
Love the vid!! I have my 400gb coming in today
wait nooooooo get the 1.6 terabyte one
@@raven4k998 Bruh, the money...... :(
How about trying to export these via NVME over fabric and utilize for large vm Farm and DB. This would be analagous to a traditional FC SAN using a way more interesting (?better?) protocol with commodity network hardware.
Any recommendations for the carrier card? I have an Intel 900p and I regret not getting the PCI-E version...
Can I put this into a modern laptop? And what's important for the swap file where there's no DRAM left: latency or high IOPS?
I use this drive for my boot/OS and games.
Can the Optane persistent Dimms work on Amd threadripper?
Do you still have the star citizen intel optane ssd? would you sell it? i am a big fan of the game. i had considered dropping in an optane drive for SC... which is why im watching this video. 12700k, 3090fe, 32gb ddr5 5600 cl36, 980pro 1x2tb, 2x1tb. extra m.2 slots available on mobo.
wondering if its worth it. regardless, if you would sell the code for the ship, id be interested in purchasing it.
0:19 At first I thought you said anaemic audio drivers... Clearly my "audio-in" is messed up. xD
I bought my 480 gb 900p for 200€ half a year ago. It was barely used like ~500 gb written.
What is the name of the carrier card your using to slot the p5800x into the motherboard?
This was what Noonian Soong's great-great-great-great-great-grand father used while he coined the term gigaquad...
If you try a Linux system, you will get 4k results a lot better than 980 pro. What you got was not the cap of the optane, but the cap of the windows operating system itself on IOPS.
AGGGGGGGGGHHHHH! I WANT IT!!!!!
finally found a drive for my gaming machine! one day i'm going to be able to afford it
here in the uk, flash is basically $260 per TB. Optane is about $1100 per TB.
Well, if 1,6TB is $3800, then $1100/TB is very cheap.
Hi, are the P5800X drives come with the pci express adapter? i got 4 card and literal into the specs say Form Factor 2.5" 15mm, but the Interface PCIe 4.0 x4, NVMe, i assume that the drives comes pci express interface? Thanks for your help
IOPs Eye Ops or Psyops Motto(s): "Persuade, Change, Influence"; (Army); PCI
I had multiple Optane 900P and 905P SSDs. Once you go Optane you don't to go back to Nand flash. The P5800X is my only legitimate upgrade path, lol. I will put one of those in my future Alder Lake build.
It's a year later since you commented, so did you? How does it feel compared to NAND SSDs for the stuff you do? I went Intel Alder Lake, so am toying with going Optane here at home.
@@greggmacdonald9644 I have built an Alder Lake 12900K/Z690/DDR5 system back in late 2021. My Windows 11 installation is on an 800GB Optane P5800X SSD. I also have a 960GB Optane 905P SSD and a 2TB WD Black SN850 in the same system. As I have both 905P and P5800X in the same PC I was able to compare these 2 generations of Optane SSDs. The P5800X increased the random read throughput at low queue depth by around 37% over the 905P (405MB/s vs 295MB/s tested with a 12900K CPU). The random read output is the metric where NAND Flash drives are lagging behind. My SN850 only scores 60MB/s in the same test. Nand flash based PCIe 3.0 and PCIe 4.0 (and even upcoming 5.0) drives score the same in that random read test while gen 2 Optane saw a huge improvement over its gen 1 predecessor in that same test. I use Optane SSDs as boot drives. They are the perfect drives for that. On a daily basis this gives me a very snappy Windows experience. I can open 200+ chrome tabs and a dozen of other apps in less than 2-3 seconds, lol. Apps open almost instantly. The low latency nature of the 3D Xpoint storage compared to Nand flash is quite noticeable. The few games I have installed on it also load faster than Nand flash drives thanks to the higher random read throughput. The poor random read performance of Nand flash based drives also explains why they don't load games faster whether they are SATA or NVMe. The only noticeable difference (aside from loading games) between my Optane 905P and Optane P5800X are in sequentials as one is PCIe 3.0 while the other is PCIe 4.0 but they both offer pretty much the same snappy Windows experience from I what I can tell based on my own experience with both drives. Later this year I will upgrade to a Raptor Lake system and both 905P and P5800X drives will still be part of my new build.
@@Patrick73787Lol how am i sloghtly beating the randoms reads of ur p5800x with a p1600x. Im getting 420 MB/s on the dot. I wonder is it also 2nd gen optane? Ik its pcie 3 but could just be cost savings. I'm also baffled that it also has the capicators for further power loss protection (works as tiny batteries for a power ourage iirc) like the 5800x has seeing the 905p does not. Technically its an enterprise drive while the 905p isnt but you would never guess that from the price or form factor.
@@Frozoken Yes, the P1600X is also a 2nd gen Optane drive that launched a few months after the P5800X (as a replacement for the older Optane 800P). It uses the same 2nd gen 3D XPoint media as the P5800X but a different memory controller which is why they differ from each other in sequential speeds but not in randoms. My P5800X score 430MB/s in QD1 random read in a 13900K/Z790 system with the drive directly attached to the CPU lanes. Which is higher than what I got in my previous 12900K system. Later this year I'll upgrade to Arrow Lake and see if I can gain more random read performance with a CPU having an even higher single core performance than 13th/14th Gen.
@@Patrick73787 Ohhh makes sense. Yeah I'm on raptor lake too. Regardless the 1600x and 5800x being within margin of error of each other was what suprised me as I thought it'd be moderately worse. The 5800x is still the dream drive tho, much more versatile except in physical size lmao
Jeez, I was really disappointed that Star Citizen was no longer bundled with the 905P when I got mine 😮💨
(Even though the Intel part number was not changed)
Star Citizen was bundled with the 900P, not the 905P.
Didn't Intel announce that they were discontinuing Optane? Is that only for consumer-grade optane' meaning server grade like P5800X will continue?
They will keep optane as a technology, and continue to sell the consumer and enterprise drives. The high end ones have no replacement to date:
in other words, the px800 (like this) series and the Hx0 (like the H20) series will live on, but no mention of a replacement for the p900 and p905s
There is a webinar somewhere in youtube where some intel engineers talk about it :/
they did sell their nand flash division, so maybe in like 3-5 years they will either buy nand to build the Hx0 line or sell that product to some other company to build something similar.
They do have everything they need to keep on going with the enterprise solutions though
They only discontinued the consumer-grade SSDs that were all-Optane. But they haven't exited the consumer market altogether.... Intel is currently rolling out the H20, which is an M.2 form factor hybrid drive that has both Optane and normal QLC flash. Early reviews look pretty good, but it's a mainstream notebook product, not a high-performance eater of Samsung 980s.
I did a video on the H20 which intel got a lot right over the H10, but it's not "for retail" -- it's a hybrid optane + nand flash. not without its quirks and is most ideally used with intel rst. Optane in the enterprise is prettymuch intel selling them as fast as they can make them. For customers that want this speed there is no substitute.
I was wondering what your thoughts would be on using one of these as an SSD vs one of the new pcie 5.0 drives, do they narrow the gap some? Now that Intel has sadly discontinued them I might have to snag one if it's gonna remain the king
@level1techs I came here for the answer to this! Would love to hear what you think. PCIe 5.0 SSDs will hit 12k MB/s but I doubt random IO or latency are any better.
a year later and the gen 5 drives still lose to the 990 pro by 5% let alone narrow the gap between nand and optane 💀. Sequential latency maybe. I've got a p1600x which is about as good as the p5800x in random qd1 (455MB/s/111k iops/8.9µs of latency. Despite that my wd sn850x is significantly lower latency sequentially probably because it's pcie 4.0 not 3.0. It gets about 200µs of sequential read latency while my optane gets 600µs. Pcie 5 probably widens that gap altho from what ive seen the p5800x gets similar sequential latency to my sn850x
Hmmmm, I wonder how fast it can chia plot with a couple P5800X's for temp drives
what do you think about intel going for sifive?
Fuzedrive software is still for sale to consumers even though they say it is not from their main page. It's still available from the store. Google "get fuzedrive today".
What's that add-in card you're using to get your P5800X in your system Wendell?
www.mercari.com/us/item/m82182186384/
@@Level1Techs This adapter doesn't mention PCIe 4, only 3. Are you sure you were getting PCIe 4 speeds?
Yes 7 gigabytes per second is not a speed possible with pcie3... It's a total crapshoot with these riser cards. I had a few other ones that did not work.
@@Level1Techs thank you very much!!!
So how many gods can you store in it and who put them there?
Yeah, PLEASE PLEASE TEST IT IN TrueNAS ... I'd LOVE to see what it dooo
How much is the real idle power consumption?
Please make a video on storeMI
Simple question - what connection options do you have with this device? I see Wendell used an AIC - does that board come with the unit? *confused*
This is u.2. you can plug in via pcie card, u.2 bay, and, or m.2 to u.2 connector
Thanks @@Level1Techs - what comes in the box i.e., do we have to purchase additional stuff to actually plug it in? Would be going in a Gigabyte WRX80-SU8-IPMI board.
Yeah I'd recommend the pcie add in card for the gigabyte. It doesn't come with it but it's only about $15
@@Level1Techs thanks - are the add-in cards still rated PCIe 3 though? Looking at StarTech for example.
@@derekjcooper I used this one and it worked fine. www.mercari.com/us/item/m82182186384/ at pcie4 speeds. Not sure about the startech
The only thing my current 905p doesn't do well is boot times. It's actually slower than my 980pro when I test it out on my AMD build
Sir, My motherborad is MSI B450M Mortar Max. I am using Win10, My question is - can i use "Intel Optane DC P5800X Series 400GB, 2.5" x 15mm, U.2, PCIe 4.0 x4" SSD with my PC? (I want to run it in win 10)
if you have a controller to do the calls from a buffered calls, similar to a hardware video buffer
fill the buffer
given the price, would a striped array of 8 U.2 NVMes not be faster for the same capacity AND cheaper?
It would still lose to the optane drive in latency
So if I have a 1.5TB 905P, should I put just my OS on this or all of my software/games too?
Or just get a 4TB SSD for games?
(This will be on an AMD 7800x3d or 7950x3d with a 4090.)
If only Intel's CPU R&D results were as impressive as what their storage team puts out!
The chip design team/division ARE as impressive. Rocket Lake has about the same IPC and performance with more features than Zen 3 CPUs. While at a MASSIVE manufacturing node disadvantage. All the Intel's struggles in the CPU division are from the manufacturing division alone, the chip design guys are doing wonders, and it's what made Intel stay afloat in the last 3 years.
@@Winnetou17 :D manufacturing node has zero effect on IPC, just the reachable clocks and power consumption!
@@viesturssilins858 Except when you cannot fit enough transistors to make some smooth optimisations. That's when it matters!
I need this for star citizen 😫
Can this drive be used as OS drive?
PrimoCache getting quite a few mentions these days.
I want to optane it.
How's the performance on Power9?
Working on trying these on an ampere system ...
Intel, please make a 32 or 64 GB version of Optane. I don't need it to be huge for most cache/zil uses.
No ac in the studio? ;-)
If you still have that Star Citzen code you could sell it for a couple of hundred dollars.
I am not smart enough to understand this video but
Now do a 4x p5800X in raid 0 array for testing
subscribe and share our content! If we keep going, will be e-z
@@Level1Techs: It's certainly e-z to subscribe to your content. :)
I'd buy a prosumer version of a P5800x so fast. Optane is a fantastic technology even for the consumer space, and arguably a bigger leap above standard M.2 SSDs than they were over old SATA SSDs. It's a real shame Intel mismanaged 3DXpoint in the consumer space.
I also hope that tiered storage trickles down, would make optane prices much for palatable for consumer
This SKU is available for us plebs and mere mortals. Imagine their 'unlisted' SKUs for those pantheons on top of mount olympus.
'Zukerbergs private reserve"
Do other companies work on alternatives to NAND aswell?
Nope, Optane was originally a collab between micron and intel but micron sold their stake to intel
And that’s that
Unless you wanna talk about the really futuristic stuff like encoding storage into DNA
This isn't an alternative to NAND, it's an intermediate between NAND and DRAM. Nothing will replace NAND for cheap, "fast enough" mass storage in the foreseeable future.
And yes, there is MRAM (Spearheaded by Everspin), which is closer to being an actual alternative to DRAM, but it's not at the point where it competes with either DRAM or Optane (They've just gotten into the GB sizes, and are also more expensive)
There are also other technologies but they're mostly still in the lab (FeRAM, ReRAM, CeRAM, NRAM, etc...) so we'll only really see them becoming alternatives in about a decade.
It's much harder and more costly to develop an entirely new form of memory based on new materials and designs than to tune the existing RAM or NAND flash.
I want a truenas server for my home with 4 of that.... XD
Wonder if Intel has looked at using this to boost Arc cards without increasing VRAM
I love Optane, but now im having a Affair with FuzeDrive.
Slip me... 3 of these?
I like looking over at my PC with the same rtx card has his
Waiting for Linus to roll out a petabyte server of these
Better wait for a decade lol.
I use Primocache for iSCSI cache onto nvme, love it. (And the iSCSI server uses optane l2arc :) )
Would love to know more - what's your full setup?
@@AJolly Central freebsd zfs server with Linux, windows and esx zvols exported over iSCSI which I pxe boot into physical or into virtual within another physical, with hourly snapshots. So I have 1 Central location to take incremental backups, and I can roll back any system in my house to any time in the last few years, even windows. Speed has been a challenge though, hence the caching at every layer possible :)