Actaeon and Diana | Why Does This Ancient Myth Spark Such Debate?
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- čas přidán 12. 04. 2020
- The myth of Actaeon and Diana (or Actaeon and Artemis, in it's original Greek form) has been a point of debate for a long time that Ovid himself points to in his retelling of the myth. Actaeon, stumbling through the woods one day after hunting comes across a pool with the naked Goddess Diana bathing in it and she, seeing him spying, loses her temper and transforms him into a stag that is then viciously torn apart by Actaeon's own hunting dogs. A gruesome end but was it justified?
By today's standards, the death penalty is pretty much never justified for anything but in ancient Greece or Rome? And considering Diana is a Goddess? What if Actaeon was spying deliberately? Did Diana necessarily mean for him to be killed by hunting dogs or did she just change him into a symbolically-fitting creature?
There are a lot of different points and twists to consider, for which people still debate the myth today, often alongside gender politics. Rather than offer my own conclusions, I wanted to highlight some of the different perspectives and ways of seeing the myth, leaving the door open for you to make up your own mind.
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#actaeon #ovid #greekmyth - Krátké a kreslené filmy
dude, i could just listen to an hour-long podcast of you interpreting ancient myths, this is like straight up really interesting
That's really nice to hear, I was never sure what people thought of this video, so thankyou
My interpretation would be that Acteon was punished because he let his desires control him, and those desires just as you said derailed/ruined his life. He overdid hunting, and just for the fun of it killed innocent animals, and as he saw a naked woman (the goddess Diana) he didn't turn away, cover his eyes, he let himself stare at her as he let his desires control him. In ancient Greece, just as for example in India, moderation was considered one of the highest virtues. They also considered desires to be false excessive impulses. They called these desires pathos, and some philosophers thought that to live a virtuous life we have to stop these desires (apathia), while others, for example Aristotle thought that we only need to control them. And what is interesting is that they also used the same vocabulary to write down desires as what they used for illnesses.
Aristotle's theory about living a virtuous life is also connects to this subject. He thought that all living beings have an own function in life that only they can do. He called this ergon, and for humans this is thinking, using our intellect. And my interpretation is that when we let our desires take hold of us, then we are not fully able to use our intellect, therefore we are derailed from our function and progress in life. For me this was the first interpretation that came to mind.
I hope what I wrote can be understood, and that I used the right words. I haven't written in English in a while.
Your English looks perfect to me, that was an insightful comment
Nope. Think of an innocent young boy enduring a nasty, life changing trauma. It is tragic.
For another perspective. The story can be the part of us (the ego, represented by masculine Actaeon) sees a glimpse of the unconscious (represented by the feminine Diana). When he remains a long time, the ego begins to slip away...or gets torn apart. When we begin to look within (our own naked unconsciousness) our outer mask of ego dies.
That's a very good interpretation. I can't help thinking there's a lot of sense in that. It makes me think of the Norse myths and how the unconscious, sleeping, hidden depths of knowledge are often symbolised with the feminine, or with ice as well, and that the male figures tend to be the seeking consciousness, trying to learn, to discover, to thaw out the ice. I'd never thought of the Actaeon myths in those terms, thankyou 😄
Nope. It is much sadder and more tragic than that.
@@Actaeon2nd How does the myth speak to you? What do you feel the myth is about?
Very well thought out video. While I love reading about Greek myths I definitely hadn't put as much thought into this one as I should. Thank you for the insight.
Thanks for this video, it poses some interesting questions, and helps me see this from a different angle.
I think both the man and the woman fall pray to 'human nature', although Diana is a goddess. It further proves that having a physical human body doesn't excuse you from having feelings such as shame and desire, even if you're immortal. The man is driven by male instinct and lust, whilst she explodes with shame and rage. But I think this is a surface level explanation of the story.
It's a very good point though, how even the divine of people can feel and act with such revenge. Maybe even the fact someone so divine could be made to feel so lowly in the first place.
Thanks for the comment, I wasn't sure anyone was interested in this video 😅
@@mylittlethoughttree It caught my eye. I'm studying art and I think greek and roman mythology is key to understanding Renaissance art
I always thought of most Metamorphosis stories as being the stories of divine cruelty first and foremost, due to Ovid's own experience with "God-like" Octavian.
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Also, for me the most cruel part of it is that Acteon loses his humanity. Even if Diana did not intend him to be torn apart, the dehumanization part is the cruelest thing here.
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Also, it is bizarre to see this punishment when Diana's brother and father are notorious for "chasing" women. Think about Apollo and Daphne and countless Zeus affairs.
You make a very good point. I hadn't actually thought of them in the context of Ovid's treatment
Your comment made me think how Diana „made“ Acteon lose his humanity, by being uncovered.
Also, her punishing the hapless mortal, even though her brother and father behave similarly, suggest to me that this was a way she could finally do what she wanted, it was only in her power to punish and stop a mortal, not her family. That she is a virgin goddess when they behave as they do also could be a kind of reproach.
I’m new to mythology, so I may well be uninformed, but that’s what your comment got me thinking.
i think, if diana is cruel, it can't be for dehumanizing actaeon. after all, debatably, he dehumanized and objectified diana first, by gawking at her and reducing her to a sexual object in the privacy of her own sacred grove.
rather, i think the cruellest thing diana did was take away his voice. the metamorphoses, to me, is mostly a story about stories and the act of storytelling, where the worst thing you can do to someone is to silence them. and the narrative half-heartedly vindicates actaeon. it tells his story for him and lets the readers judge if it was something he deserved to tell.
@@cabbage-soup but Actaeon still had his mind-so he didn’t lose his “voice” per se, it just became animal (other). He still had his human world upstairs-so conceivably (had he lived) couldn’t he have developed his animal voice using his human capacities, couldn’t he have used his hoof to write in the dirt, communicated in inventive ways… perhaps even discover he could understand other animals? Though, that may have been the real curse-to hear the voices of the creatures you’d hunted down for so long, to be hit by all the suffering you were formerly not attuned to. Maybe that would be his salvation tho, to _die_ in light of his truth and become more open to the other..
Really interesting video, really liked it!
I love Greek mythology and it helps to hear a quick synopsis before indulging into the readings.Thank you for this. I had to play it twice because you speak so fast lol.
Wonderful, thanks so much!
These moral dilemmas are everywhere, especially in the context of hearing a vague story. The insight that the revelation of Diana might be vaguely pornographic is interesting if we're imagining storytellers around a campfire, but the fact is the proper analogy is really more like reporting the news of American politics by speaking of the actions of donkeys and elephants - where the gods when they interacted represented regional rites. Robert Graves has it like this about Diana/Artemis: "Actaeon was, it seems, a sacred king of the pre-Hellenic stag cult, torn to pieces at the end of his reign of fifty months, namely half a Great Year - The Nymph properly took her bath after, not before, the murder. There are numerous parallels to this ritual custom in Irish and Welsh myth, and as late as the first century AD a man dressed in a stag’s skin was periodically chased and killed on the Arcadian Mount Lycaeum" -- It is a motif describing a set of rituals, probably gleaned vaguely from ancient stories by the classical Greeks who had as much indifference and incredulity as a modern person would, to understanding it as such. These actions ritually taken indicated an orientation, just as modern education does, toward particular natural elements, for instance the purity of water and the sources of meat. When cultures are young and wild they just attach to whatever is around them, they love them, they bring their image (and skins) into their lives as decoration and song and rituals such as those being described in this myth. The main moral question here - for them - was not whether is was right to kill deer, but to express gratitude that there were such things as deer.
True. Even interpretation of Diana's look differ coz in most ethnicities inhabiting Ancient Greece she is white when in old Minoan depictions (before Minotaur was killed) her race is black. So we can assume that different cultures of Ancient Greece interpreted the myth differently.
Please please please could you give me a reference or the resource you used regarding the stag being a symbol of male impulse. 🙏🏼
Oh, I don't know of any resources exactly, but it's just one of those age old metaphors, hence why stag nights are called stag.
The Dictionary of Symbols is a great reference. However, it correlates the stag “horns” to the masculine (page 151).
Source: ia801306.us.archive.org/9/items/DictionaryOfSymbols/Dictionary%20of%20Symbols.pdf
What is the source by Ovid that mentions all the dog names? I downloaded the Metamorphoses but the myth is short in that version and no dog names at all. I looked at the Wiki entry for the myth and there is a table of dog names and Ovid mentions 22 or 27 names (I guess different sources). 27 is a lunar number and 22 is a little trickier. The "bitch" names are 13 and that is more of a solar number. Anyway, I'd like to read the original that lists all the names.
Ovid's Metamorphoses in print form includes all those.
.....isn't this the plot to Brother Bear??
Somewhat, but brother bear gets to live and return as human and redeem himself at the end.
Diana in the myth felt mercy for Aceton and wanted to bring him back his original form. She never felt sorry for men who wanted to turn women into their toys. She always turned those into hares. Deer form suggest smth Aceton wasn't ausidious in love, he wasn't mature enough to form a stable relationship coz he belived love is a bliss.
I can tell you what it means. I lived it
Aren't the stories of old always make bad endings hence Greek ending, but beside having a bad ending back then 35 was considered old like grampa old. Life was short, God's crushed men like bugs.
You walk into a glade and see an actual Goddess stark naked chances are you're going to be struck dumb for at least a few seconds and all of those descriptions though taking time to read would realistically have happened in mere seconds!
I don't subscribe to the idea he deserved what happened to him just because he didn't immediately look away.
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The idea she was punishing him for over-hunting also doesn't work as she specifically punishes him for seeing her naked NOT for hunting......This even though Diana/Artemis is well known for punishing hunters; this story makes no mention of that being her reason for this punishment.
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P.S. The story may use Artemis's Roman name and have been written down by a Roman Poet BUT this is a Greek story not a Roman one.
In all respect to the thoughts of this young man speaking on this. It's very insulting 😂
Could you explain a little? I don't mean to cause insult if you feel I'm getting things wrong
Does Diana have the power to do lesser tempestuous damage? The transformation into a wild forest mammal may be her only recourse and rather automatic as she is most familiar with the beast and holds Stags in high majestic regard or that the spell was determined by the victim's own temperament. Diana's portrayal is sexist and unbalanced, as she may have been able to read his thoughts and mirrored the lust back upon Actaeon, in displaying his true nature.
In meting out his punishment for being obtrusive, Actaeon's fate is open for debate and further insights should be developed. The portrayal of Diana's reasoning is stagnating from a women's perspective. In the defense of a violated woman and their sacred dignity, men are not able to reflect properly on the severity of the injustice. The limited inherit treasures that women possess, singing, dancing, motherhood, and beauty are their only gifts of value. Yes, developed skills in cooking, arts, and other secondary skills are of minor value compared to their natural gifts and the morals of the period should be framed to further the understanding of the story. We are accustomed to seeing naked beauty today, however, the ancient norms did not tolerate acts of voyeurism on a Goddess and I would dare say a male God would have struck him dead given the same circumstances.