America’s War on Japanese Shipping - WW2 Special Documentary
Vložit
- čas přidán 14. 02. 2023
- We've covered in great depth the Battle of the Atlantic and the war by and against German U-Boats, but what about the other side of the world? Why has the war on Japanese shipping been so much quieter? There are several very specific reasons for that, which we look at today.
Join us on Patreon: / timeghosthistory
Or join the TimeGhost Army directly at: timeghost.tv/signup/
Check out our TimeGhost History CZcams channel: / timeghost
Between 2 Wars: • Between 2 Wars
Follow WW2 Day by Day on Instagram: @ww2_day_by_day
Follow TimeGhost History on Instagram: @timeghosthistory
Like us on Facebook: / timeghosthistory
Hosted by: Indy Neidell
Director: Astrid Deinhard
Producers: Astrid Deinhard and Spartacus Olsson
Executive Producers: Astrid Deinhard, Indy Neidell, Spartacus Olsson
Creative Producer: Marek Kamiński
Community Management: Ian Sowden
Written by: Indy Neidell
Research by: Indy Neidell
Map animations by: Daniel Weiss
Map research by: Sietse Kenter
Edited by: Iryna Dulka
Artwork and color grading by: Mikołaj Uchman
Sound design by: Marek Kamiński
Colorizations by:
Mikołaj Uchman
Carlos Ortega Pereira, BlauColorizations, / blaucolorizations
Source literature list: bit.ly/WW2sources
Archive footage: Screenocean/Reuters - www.screenocean.com
Image sources:
IWM WPN 134, CCN 217
Soundtracks from Epidemic Sound:
Dragon King - Jo Wandrini
Spellbound - Edward Karl Hanson
Magnificat STEMS INSTRUMENTS - Cercles Nouvelles
At the Front - Phoenix Tail
Easy Target - Rannar Sillard
Let Go of Fear - Howard Harper-Barnes
One Way North - Jon Sumner
Leave It All Here - Fabien Tell
A TimeGhost chronological documentary produced by OnLion Entertainment GmbH.
Be it the waters of the Pacific or the skies over Europe, we cover every type of action in this massive war. Be sure to check out our recent special on Allied flying aces czcams.com/video/kjP9_LM9OnU/video.html
Join the TimeGhost Army: www.patreon.com/join/timeghosthistory
Please check out our rules of conduct before commenting: community.timeghost.tv/t/rules-of-conduct/4518
When you get to 1945, one of the more unusual "types of action" that you should cover is Operation Starvation, which was the deployment of aerial mines around the home islands of Japan by B-29 bombers. Post-war analysis rated it as one of the most cost-effective methods of destroying the ability of Japan to continue to fight the war. Wikipedia states that the costs were 15 aircraft lost by the USA, and 670 Japanese ships sunk or damaged, totaling 1,250,000+ tons. As the pre-war Japanese merchant fleet was stated to be "over 6,000,000 tons" in this video, that would be about 20% of the pre-war fleet put out of service by aerial mines.
You people should change your name. It's troublesome to find your channel.
I am an armchair historian for ww2 war which gives us all the information and technologies.... I am so excited to hear some new news I never knew of the Dutch submarines in battle....
Dutch submarine wolfpacks in Southeast Asia are very underrated. They sunk alot of Japanese ships with their aggressive tactics!
I didn’t even know the Dutch had submarines 😮
@@macleunin For quite some time they had nothing _but_ submarines. They had a sizeable fleet of small warships to patrol their colonies, but lost most of it very early on in the war. The submarines though mostly escaped the fate of the surface ships (bombed and torpedoed to hell) and kept on fighting from other allied ports. And unlike the US Navy's subs, the dutch had both working torpedoes and a solid strategic and tactical doctrine. They also got some replacement boats from the UK so they kept up a pretty solid force for the whole war despite being a navy in exile.
@@macleunin Look up Conrad "Ship a Day" Helfrich if you want to know more about the overlooked Dutch effort in the Pacific.
@@macleunin We sure had, probably their most famous captain was 'Piet de Jong' who in the may days of 1940 would escape to the UK with the submarine HNLMS O 24 which was actually not yet finished. From september 1940 until July 1942 it patrolled under command of 'de Jong' the waters in the north sea and near Gibraltar, then transferred to the Indian ocean. After the Japanese surrender the O 24 with it's now commander 'Piet de Jong' returned to the Netherlands in 1946. After the war he would serve several functions in politics, like minister of defence and finally prime minister from 1967 until 1971. He would pass away at the age of 101 years in 2016.
I wasn’t aware of the Dutch impact in the Pacific War. The story always gets told as them getting beat and just rolling over for the rest of the war. I definitely need to read up on them if that wasn’t the case
Fact: the Japanese took part in escorting convoys in the Mediterranean during World War I and gained a lot of experience in ASW operations, but the "decisive battle" mindset between the fleets meant that these experiences were largely ignored and forgotten.
Unlike the British however in WW1 they never faced an existential crisis due to a U-boat campaign. The UK did. As a result the RN made submarine warfare and convoy protection a priority the moment the war started in 1939, in addition to major fleet actions. So who knows, if Japan had suffered almost starvation from sub warfare in WW1, it might have resulted in an actual and credible ASW force in 1941. Then again, the US Air Force forgot everything about dogfighting that had made its fighters so successful in WW2 and Korea, as their new air to air missiles would make dogfights obsolete. A lesson that took years to relearn in Vietnam. Past experience may mean very little when a glorious new doctrine looks shiny.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 In between wars the UK did not expend much thought on the matter. Everybody knew war was coming, Germany had subs, and they could remember WWI. But they let the subject decay.
It took a long time to organize convoys and set up escorts. From my reading it was only a couple of career officers who kept up study on ASW.
@@recoil53 It may have taken the Brits time to sort the system out again, but they did organize the first convoys the moment war with Germany was declared. That means they took the problem serious based on past experience. Japan never took it serious because they had no real past experience with it, being on the receiving end of a submarine war.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 They took the problem seriously based on then present (WWII) experience. They did not immediately mandate defensive tactics.
OTOH the Japanese seemed to have never learned.
This is enlightening, as I was not aware of this fact.War is a learning experience, if only we could a avoid such lessons.
The book Shattered Sword (which is about Midway) talks extensively about how the Japanese Navy was so dedicated to the Decisive Battle throughout the war; the seeds of which were planted at their victory at Tsushima in the Russo-Japanese war. After that the IJN thought the best (and probably only) way to win was through a single, massive, decisive engagement; hence the desire to keep building and planning around carriers even when the support system for them was effectively gone (aircrews, aircraft, experienced commanders, fuel). It's also insane how the entire IJN command was in such denial of their situation for so long.
The neglect of logistics in favour of building offensive assets (hence the emphasis on building aircraft carriers, various torpedo-armed subcapital warships, and up until December 1941 battleships) was the crippling weakness of the IJN. They had a lot of warships, many of which were actually quite capable, but not the reserves of fuel, manpower, or spare parts for them.
@@bkjeong4302 They bet everything on the war being over very quickly (in part because at least some of them realized that they were utterly screwed if it wasn't). It wasn't entirely neglect...it was a conscious strategic choice. A very wrong one, but understandable given their position.
if you accept the strategic premises that the ijn was operating under, much of their actions start to make some sense. However, those premises (that they wouldn't be dragged into a protracted total war, for instance) are obviously faulty in retrospect.
Remember, the Japanese had NEVER suffered from economic war, never a blockade, no naval raiders doing big damage, nor submarine attack. To them these things were more theoretical, they did not feel it in their gut - but the decisive battles, THAT they had done.
-The Sino-Japanese War and the invasion of Taiwan (1894-1895) no raiders, no blockade, but had the decisive Battle of the Yalu River (1894) which Japan won.
-The Boxer Rebellion 1900 expedition had no Chinese naval element vs the Japanese.
-The series of struggles to conquer Korea 1905-1909 had no naval element.
-The Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905) Japan suffered no raiders, no blockade. But the Naval battles, that they did.
-WWI (1914-1915) there were a few German raiders with no effect economically, the German fleet went to south America, so no blockade. The Japanese escorts in the Med were pretty much politically sidelined.
-China War (1937-1941) again no naval element.
.
So it was only WWII, and then only the last 2 years that Japan suffered from submarines and mine blockades. There is a reason that the Japanese Navy had not taken economic warfare seriously.
Excellent book!
Drachinifel has an excellent video covering the story of the mk14 for anyone interested in a deeper dive on that particular trainwreck
Indeed he does. 'Failure is like an Onion' is the video title IIRC.
I still don’t get why Admiral King didn’t send Admiral Lee to use the Bureau of Ordnance for target practice.
I’ve seen that video. There’s lots of good info in his vid.
Link to Drach's excellent video on the Mk 14: czcams.com/video/eQ5Ru7Zu_1I/video.html
I strongly recommend it to anyone who has watched this video.
@@gleisbauer25 God, the ego to say - during WWII - that his pet project was fine, it's everybody else that was wrong.
Send him to be the Naval Liason in Moscow.
As a Former US Navy submariner, I can tell you there’s still tons of stuff still classified
I don't doubt what you say, but why would stuff still remain classified Secret eighty years later? Ultra is well known. The technical aspects of the Gatos, Balaos, and Tench class boats are all well known (and the few survivors are all corroded out museum hulks now) as well as the faults of the Mk XIV. The magnetic influence exploder didn't work (but something similar in results does now) so what could be left?
@@stearman456 I don’t know alls I know there is tons of stuff of US Submarine operations that is still top secret
@@stearman456
Simple, the pacific strategy used in WW2 is still viable today
“Cough” China “cough”
Much more, yes. HYPO knew location of minefields and all Japanese vessels. Wolfpacks were organized with lead communicating with HYPO through super-secret American code to happy hunting grounds. New passive sonar was installed on lead for minefield maneuvering. Read the sinking of SS Sculpin (a lead sub) to understand how Capt John Cromwell saved the entire program.
I used to volunteer and work at a military museum during my late teens and early twenties. I was given the opportunity to help research and put together an exhibit commemorating the 100th anniversary of Vimy Ridge during my time there. At first I was ecstatic, I was granted access to the archives and memorabilia and weapons that weren’t on display, I was watching all Indy’s videos about that time of the war (I watched the Arthur Currie episode probably a dozen times). I got to see the wedding dress of Princess Patricia, a few pieces of wood and canvas from one of The Red Baron’s planes, a German belt buckle with a bullet lodged into it, a highly engraved/decorative Lee Enfield, and a British Navy officers sword with a handle of bleached and cross wrapped shark skin. However I ended up coming across some things that where truly disturbing in those vaults as well, reading the notes from soldiers on the front was difficult and distressing at times, especially the ones stained with blood. Perhaps the most disturbing things I came across was the variety of barbaric looking hand-made weapons for close quarters combat. I came across one in particular that was a cylindrical mace head with spikes attached by a heavy-duty spring to a handle about 1 and half feet long.. I was handling it, and it was clearly stained, but I wasn’t sure if it was blood. Turning it over in my hands I found it had 7 notches etched into the bottom of the handle, I then clearly realized I was holding something that had caused the brutal death of over half dozen men 100 years prior. I gently replaced the mace and shut the drawer, I fell immediately nauseous after walking out of the archives and nearly had an emotional breakdown. I obviously can’t fully fathom or comprehend what those men in the trench’s endured when reading their notes and touching their gear, but the feelings I had that day are near indescribable, almost spiritual in a sense. I’m not religious or superstitious, but whenever I step foot back in the museum these days I get really mixed feelings and always feel as though I have someone near me, even when I’m alone.
Lest We Forget.
Thank you Indy and the crew for all the amazing work you guys do for preserving history, and detailing the devastation of war. When it gets hard or distressing to deal with everything you know, remember that it’s people like you guys who are keeping the memories and sacrifices of those men who fought relevant and relatable, even 100 years later. Thank you all so much, especially Spartacus with the War Against Humanity series. I personally don’t watch them anymore, but I’m always amazed at how much dignity and respect Spartacus presents on such horribly disturbing topics. Keep yourselves safe and sane, and please take breaks from the topics of war if you need to. I appreciate the hard work you guys and gals put in, but I do worry at times it may have bad effects if you’re not careful.
Dude you need to stick to playing American 🏈 football!!!
I read somewhere that BuOrd had continued to refuse to take action on the MK14 issues until one Admiral Ernest J. King was made aware of the problem. If true, I would not have wanted to have been the poor soul at BuOrd who got the phone call from Admiral King.
I wish that King rant was recorded.
I agree,especially since the rumor about Adm. King "shaved with a blowtorch"!
Based on Drachinifel's description of King in his video on the Admiral.
Door opens.
Board members look up to see King flanked by a pair of sub commanders.
Chairman of BoA begins choking.
King "You have failed me for the last time."
@@jmullner76 That rant would have likely reduced the recording device to slag.
"King was the most even-tempered man in the navy. He was _always_ angry."
Underrated part of the war, the main US submarine sinking of a Japanese ship in the Pacific that I had heard of was the USS Queenfish sinking the Awa Maru. The Awa Maru was allegedly carrying a treasure worth $5 Billion in gold, platinum, and diamonds in addition to other strategic material. Others alleged that the fossil remains of the Peking Man were aboard and was priceless. If the ship was carrying any treasure, it had been delivered to Thailand (according to NSA intercepted communications) and reloaded with tin and rubber. Hope you enjoyed this story, I could go into more detail if you want.
Could you go into detail? I never heard of this story. Also did you know that the crew of the USS Barb landed in Japan, they blew up a railroad bridge making them the only Sub crew to do a mission on land.
If you want an underrated side of the naval fight, read about Operation Starvation, the mining of Japan's waterways by air.
USS Archerfish sank the most tonnage of any U.S. submarine during WW2, almost twice of what the Barb managed to sink and it was only 1 ship, the IJN Shinano. Although I do love the stories from the Barb, that crew must have been genuinely insane!
@@AlexPeace246 me too the Barb was the first Sub to launch rockets at the enemy.
@@JohnJohn-pe5kr Sure, to start the Awa Maru went from Japan to Singapore to offload the treasure (be that Yamashita’s gold, Peking Man, or other treasure that Japan had looted throughout the war in the Pacific). The ship was sailing under the Red Cross as a relief ship supposedly carrying aid for Allied POWs in 1945. Having delivered her supplies, Awa Maru took on several hundred stranded merchant marine officers, military personnel, diplomats and civilians at Singapore. In addition, there were stories that the ship carried treasure worth approximately US$5 billion: 40 metric tons of gold, 12 metric tons of platinum (valued at about $58 million), and 150,000 carats (30 kg) of diamonds and other strategic materials. Less dramatic and more credible sources identify the likely cargo as nickel and rubber. The ship was observed in Singapore being loaded with a cargo of rice in sacks; however, that evening the docks were reportedly cleared and troops were brought in to first unload the rice and then re-load her with contraband.Her voyage also corresponded with the last possible location of the fossil remains of Peking Man, which were in Singapore at the time and were, on their own, priceless in value. There are various theories regarding the disappearance of a number of Peking Man fossils during World War II; one such theory is that the bones sank with the Awa Maru in 1945. The ship departed Singapore on March 28, but on April 1 was intercepted late at night in the Taiwan Strait by the American submarine USS Queenfish (SS-393), which mistook her for a destroyer. The commanding officer of the Queenfish, Commander Charles Elliott Loughlin was ordered by Admiral Ernest King to an immediate general court-martial. As the Awa Maru sank "she was carrying a cargo of rubber, lead, tin, and sugar. Seventeen hundred merchant seamen and 80 first-class passengers, all survivors of ship sinkings, were being transported from Singapore to Japan.…[The] survivor said no Red Cross supplies were aboard, they having been previously unloaded."
In 1980, the People's Republic of China launched one of the biggest salvage efforts on a single ship in history. They had successfully located and identified the wreck site in 1977 and were convinced that the vessel was carrying billions in gold and jewels. After approximately 5 years and $100 million spent on the effort, the search was finally called off. No treasure was found. However, several personal artifacts were returned to Japan. In the aftermath of the salvage attempt, the NSA scoured thousands of intercepted communications to determine what exactly happened to the treasure. From the communications, they determined that the treasure was not to be taken back to Japan. It was to be sent from Japan to Singapore where it would then be delivered to Thailand. The gold was successfully delivered and the Awa Maru was reloaded with a cargo of tin and rubber for the return trip to Japan. In June 2021 the NSA files from 1981 were declassified giving a detailed report:
media.defense.gov/2021/Jun/30/2002752859/-1/-1/0/SINKINGAWA%20MARU.PDF
Most of my information came from Wikipedia and this report. Hope you enjoyed!
Yes, the MK. 14 torpedoes. I heard a lot about these issues, and I'm glad they were mentioned and shown in the movie Midway(2019 remake).
Admiral Christie and the Ordinance Bureau sound like they were really high on copium.
Bureaucrats are always the bane of any organization.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 That’s true, but no large organization can function without bureaucrats.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 Especially when they're defending their own pet projects.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 the magnetic detonator was Christie's pet project and his dreamed Wunderwaffe - that's why he was so ludicrously against any testing and was ready to give any possible explanation why things were not working as intended rather than accepting the possibility that perhaps his brainchild wasn't as great as he had thought it was.
Drachinifel does a great video on the Mk 14 torpedo
Not only is it an in-depth study of the MK 14, but pretty darn humorous also. Glad to see another Drach fan.
czcams.com/video/eQ5Ru7Zu_1I/video.html
@@williamharvey8895 His Voyage of the Damned videos are absolutely fantastic. I like to imagine that one day someone will use it as a film script.
It is good to see some coverage of the ongoing naval battle on shipping in the Pacific, which is often less talked about compared to the more well known Battle of the Atlantic. Did get to learn a fair bit of stuff from this often overlooked or underrated part of the Pacific War. Thank you Indy & team.
Agreed, and good special.
It is interesting how some aspects of history sort of fade from popular memory while others occupy a more prominent position, and often the determining factor is not the historical impact. The U-boat war in the Atlantic versus the submarine war in the Pacific an example of that, with the latter being nearly forgotten despite concluding as the most successful submarine campaign in human history, while the U-boats ultimately lost in the Battle of the Atlantic.
Quite rare for this channel too that it focuses on something in Asia. It's again very Europe centered, I was hoping they'd tell equally about both theaters..
@@demi3115
I’m sure that come mid-1944 we’re gonna hear alot more from the far east
Wink wink 😉
By late 1944, my father was a senior officer on Nimitz's staff on Guam working on getting out the story of how the Navy was winning the war in the Pacific. At the time, the navy was very closed lip about operational security and MacArthur was getting most of the headlines back home. At this point of the war, all service branches were starting to think about how the US military budgets would be divided after the war and the Navy wanted to make sure Congress and the pubic knew of it's massive contribution to beating the Japanese.
My father did a great deal of work to get the story about the accomplishments of surface fleet, the carrier fleets and marine divisions out to congress, US newspapers and wire services. The only group that seriously resisted "blowing their horn" was the US submarine fleet who remained silent for the most part about their accomplishments. Their primary concern remained operational security. This is one of the primary reasons the the many victories of the Silent Service in the second half of the war remained quiet (if not secret) for so long.
Hence the post-war "Victory At Sea" series as well.
A good subject to cover in the battle of the Atlantic which is rarely mentioned, is RAF Coastal Commands battle against German merchant convoys and surface ships in the North sea. Its not something you hear very often and is a very interesting part of the war to cover.
There are many of such pieces of the struggle that are not in the spotlight. Another example: the tonnage war in the Mediterranean against the Axis, mainly Italy.
Coastal Command were stationed in the USA to protect NYC Harbor.
I feel Drachinifel gives a good argument why the IJN did not commit resources to ASW. The IJN’s strategic goal and reasoning was centered around winning a war or negotiated peace in 6 months. Attacking support fields at Pearl Harbor or developing robust anti submarine doctrine does not lend itself to a quick war. As most of the Staff Officers are proponents of that strategy, they are too ornery or tunnel visioned into thinking decisive battle is the only way to achieve strategic movement in the war
The decisive battle doctrine also fails to take into account the US replacement ability. They knew America would ramp up ship production after Pearl Harbor, but I think they vastly underestimated by how much.
Until that point no country ever had the resources and manpower to turn around damaged ships so fast, while continuing to build an entirely new fleet on top of it.
This is “ a military always fights the last war” . The Japanese defeated Russia in that way and expected it to happen with the US. No one apparently in the Japanese military establishment had studied the US civil war. It’s pretty much a blue print for what the US did to Japan.
Im a Drach fan too. Can you recommend the video where he goes into this?
Andrew May was another related frustration. May revealed the deficiencies of Japanese depth-charge tactics in a press conference held in June 1943 on his return from a war zone trip. Japanese were paying attention. Loose lips, May!
RIP to the valiant crew of the USS Albacore (SS218) whose boat location has been verified off the coast of Hokkaido.
On eternal patrol
BZ Indy! (BZ is Navy jargon for "good job") The story of the U.S. Navy submarine war against the Japanese. 2% of the Navy (the submarine force) sunk greater than 50% of all the ships sunk by the U.S. Navy in WWII. Quite an accomplishment. As a retired submariner (pronounced sub' MAR ee ner), I appreciate you highlighting the efforts of our guys in the war.
From a fellow submariner, thank you for your service. Thank you for your continued support to our channel.
@@WorldWarTwo Fellow submariner? U.S. or Swede?
It always interesting to me how Nazi Germany captures ones imagination. Talking to hobby u-boat enthusiasts they can talk endlessly about German wolfpacks, tank hobbyists can talk endlessly about the tiger, messersmith in aviation, german generals in generalship, however time and time again ww2 shows how the allies and soviets so many times, over and over, does the same things better. Nazi Germany remains a huge ''Dunning-Kruger'' magnet which somehow keeps captivating people, limiting us into bubbles of appreciation for what was so utterly dysfunctional. The Japanese empire echoes this. The authoritarian nature of these regimes produced so much dysfunction yet it keeps an aura of allure for so many people around the globe that cannot resist the mental shortcut of leaving all their thinking and responsibility into the hands of an authoritarian regime. We are all so utterly grateful in how this channel show the whole picture. For example gaming is obsessed with ''faction'' or ''racial'' bonuses. Where players will even get angry if, say, a nation can be better at tanks than germany. In reality knowledge is so much more human and more complex. Everyone is doing tanks, everyone is doing infantry, everyone is doing submarines. The success with it has nothing to do with ''race'' or ''factions'' but with how the people of the nation can create and leverage their mental & material output.
Part of the reason why the U-boat campaign occupies a much more prominent position in popular memory than the Allied submarine campaign in the Pacific, despite the latter being far more successful, is that Allied government and military authorities often concealed the successes of their submarines from the press for OPSEC reasons. Of course there was no similar concern about the successes of U-boats, which were reported on extensively by the Allied press.
Partially it’s because it’s not true that the victor writes the history, it’s often the one who has the most to hide. Many surviving German generals wrote autobiographies after the war showing how awesome they were and as the world had moved on to another war it wasn’t in many people’s interest to disagree with them. It shows like these and the fresh research they are based on that stand a chance to pierce the fantasy.
Germany's plan - Starve British Shipping.
America - "Good idea. Let's do that. And do it correctly. Once the torpedoes work."
The line of national flags in the background shows the Canadian red ensign, the flag our country fought under during the war. It would remain the national standard and wouldn't be changed until almost 20 years after the war on this date, February 15th, 1965, when the "Maple Leaf" flag was adopted.
Happy Flag Day, Canadians!
Also have to give credit to those B-25s converted with four 50 caliber machine guns in the nose, the forerunner of the A-10.
They would search out and decimate enemy troop transports and freighters. The bullets ripped right through the relatively thin plating causing them to explode or sink.
My dad worked on the B-25s in WWII.
Didn't they develop those for close air support during island landings? I remember reading about how they'd run big lines of them across islands hosing down Japanese defenses from the rear, or strafing airfields and taking out huge amounts of planes and supplies at a time. Either way, it's a very effective anti-ship weapon too assuming they don't have much in the way of AA like most merchant ships.
@@Raskolnikov70 They up gunned some of the Marine and Navy version of B-25s to have sixteen 50 cal machine guns (PBJ-1J) or a 75 mm cannon (PBJ-1H).
@@DeTiro144 That sounds like the version I read about. It was in a book about the island hopping campaign, and they were describing the pre-landing strikes they used against Japanese positions. Their tactic was to repeatedly strafe their airfields and positions with those airplanes to the point that it cleared forests just from the heavy volume of fire. Sixteen Ma Deuces per pass sounds about right.
What, I'm first? I've long held a low opinion of Admiral Christie. He did a lot of good prewar in the development of modern torpedoes, but was undone by his stubborn refusal to recognize the shortcomings of his designs in wartime operations. His clashes with Admirals Lockwood and Kinkaid, bordering on insubordination, eventually led to his dismissal from his combat command. I can't be certain of this, but his subsequent work as an insurance salesmen during his retirement years leaves the impression he was not well regarded by many submariners.
Reminds me of one of my dad's favorite movies. "Run Silent Run Deep" they even rehashed that into one of the most famous Star Trek episodes. Where Kirk is fighting the Romulans.
Based more on "The Enemy Below" (Mitchum and Jürgens), isn't it?
"The 1966 _Star Trek_ episode "Balance of Terror" is closely based on the film, with the USS _Enterprise_ cast as the destroyer and the Romulan vessel, using a cloaking device, as the U-boat.[8]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Below
Torpedoes were expensive high tech during WW2, so they didn't want to "waste" them for testing, early in the war, American sub commanders were often glad to get vintage WW1 torpedoes, which were slower but far more reliable
That, and the effects of Great Depression.
That argument sounds a bit forced. I doubt anyone is arguing the explosive on the torpedo is not viable, they are arguing that the torpedo sensors do not trigger the explosive. So replace the explosive with a recording device ( it’s the 1940s so paper tapes pens electric motors ) recording the output of the sensors. Rerun test as often as necessary with the test torpedo. If the contact fuse has to be replaced on some tests the US can afford it.
Thank you for your input. We are glad you enjoyed our content
@@francesconicoletti2547 The problem is that Mk.14 is developed during the Great Depression. And that mentality that they "don't have money" stayed until the late stages of WW2.
A special or two looking into the dysfunction of the Japanese military and the rivalry between the Imperial Army and the imperial Navy which at times bordered on the sabotage of the other would be cool
“Bordered?”
The actual murder of officers in the other service was not unknown.
Yes, but for safety reasons it would have to be two episodes, ideally well separated from each other.;
Thank you for this episode. In Jr Hi many years ago, a favorite book amongst the guys was "Up Periscope." I've often wondered since how much of the story was pure fiction. But you talked about things (caution vs being aggressive, effective communications, emphasis on codebreaking) that very much play part in the story.
Hi Kenneth, thank you very much for watching! Glad you enjoyed the episode, and thank you for sharing your thoughts with the community.
Great stuff Indy! You should do a special on the Monsun Gruppe, the German U boats that operated in the Indian and the pacific oceans.
You've brought back some memories. When I was growing up in the 50's, there was a TV program called The Silent Service about U.S. submarines in the Pacific in WWII. We'd watch it on our black and white, vacuum tube television. Each episode would begin with a submarine breaching the surface at a 45 degree angle. I think the program inspired me to buy my first (of many) WWII paperback book about our subs fighting in the Pacific. Thank you for this special. I'll have to check out that article by Atishi Oi.
The 2 series of 'The Silent Service' are here on CZcams. There are about 60 episodes in all. Great stuff fronted by Rear Admiral Thomas Dykers (Retired). He commanded the USS Jack in WW2 and sank 8 Japanese ships. He knows his stuff!
Great video! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 I can vaguely recall (I could be wrong) that the US Navy had a unit that further refined the submarine tactics through war games simulations - I believe that, along with the torpedoes issues fixed, this also greatly affected number of Japanese merchant ships losses. Keep up the good work!
In 1942, Christie was commander of the sub force based in Brisbane, then was called back to the States to straighten out a torpedo production bottleneck, and then in 1943 became commander of the sub force at Fremantle (near Perth). Lockwood was chosen over Christie to be ComSubPac when Adm. England died in a plane crash. It's worth wondering whether Christie would have investigated the Mark XIV's exploder flaws as seriously as Lockwood did. Re Lockwood's "peashooter" remark, subs had been equipped with a 3"/50 deck gun that wasn't even very good against merchant ships. Over time, these guns were replaced with 4"/50 guns from Wickes and Clemson class DDs that had been converted to auxiliaries and 5"/25 guns that had been replaced with 5"/38s in AA use.
Sub crews also had a tendency to scrounge any unattended harbor defense or similar guns and bolt them to their subs without ever telling anybody about it. Some boats got scheduled to receive new deck guns and were found to be already armed _way_ in excess of what they were supposed to get...
@@GaldirEonai Heck, USS Barb managed to commandeer the only remaining Mk 51 rocket launcher in all of Hawaii for her final war patrol.
@@hourlardnsaver362 The story of the USS Barb after Eugene B. Fluckey, MOH took over is a very good story. Might have to listen to Thunder below again now ^^
The Dutch efforts in the pacific are very underrated
Be interesting to know what torpedoes were used. I understand British torpedoes worked well. Where would the Dutch get theirs from?
Another great one, Indy. As a retired Navy Submarine Chief, you hit just about every point as to why submarines were so ineffective the first 2 years of the war. When Uncle Charlie (Admiral Lockwood's submarine nickname) took over, he did many things to fix the problem as you outlined, especially the trouble with the MK-14's. Just to add to your story, the other reason merchant marine ships were more or less left alone in the beginning of the war was due to (1) not enough submarines to cover both IJN movements AND their Merchant Marine movements, and (2) the torpedo problem forced them to decide which target was more valuable than the others when making target selections. As the war progressed, the torpedo problem was fixed and the size of the Pacific Submarine Fleet grew by over 200%, so we could SWARM Japan and shot at anything that floated.
SO in my qualified position as a Retired Submarine Chief, this documentary was AWESOME! ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Wow, that's very nice to hear. Thanks! I really enjoyed doing the research for this one too, to be honest. It's a bit off the beaten path in terms of subjects I cover. I proudly accept your five star assessment!
Ian Toll's Pacific War trilogy is a must read for anyone who has an interest in the Pacific theater in WW 2.
Listening to twilight of the gods rn
YES! SUBMARINES!!!
The US Submarine fleet; we read a ship’s log from a WW2 Gato or Balao class when a crew member earns their dolphins. Usually it’s the USS Barb. But loads of us choose any of the stories of a boat surfacing alongside a destroyer under the angle of the Japanese surface fleet & running havoc then diving again.
The old man on my boat preferred to read award citations from the war when ya got your fish.
Its very likely that the failures of the US Mark 14 torpedoes probably aided in making the Japanese complacent in their ASW tactics. They got used to US subs firing at them and then missing, so when the torpedoes actually got fixed they were unprepared for the amount of damage they started causing because you have to plan years in advance for anything to change in a navy.
You are on the right track-Japanese ships actually arrived in port with dud torpedoes in their hulls. The other key change came in early 1943 when Charles Lockwood assumed command of the sub fleet at Pearl. His boss Nimitz was an old submariner. Bad combination for Japanese shipping with two old submariners developing a plan.
Sounds like the same ephphany the Wehrmacht experienced around November 1942 - "wait a sec... they're not supposed to be able to do that..... only we can do that...."
Focusing on carriers and ignoring submarines? Well, good thing that big carriers are basically invincible and can't be sunk by, say, one lone submarine...
Hey, are you guys planning to do a special on the US Submarine Barb's daring attack on a train in 1945? It is a helluva story. Eugene Fluckey was the capt and tells the story amazingly in his book, "Thunder Below!". You should check it out, GREAT read.
I can't imagine risking my boat and crew just to launch a spread of turds at the enemy. Then come home and be told it was our fault.
czcams.com/video/eQ5Ru7Zu_1I/video.html
Brings to mind the 'Silent Service' computer game I used to play on the school computers back in my elementary school days in the early '90s.
A very interesting special episode, thanks for having made it!
YES! I’ve looked forward to this episode for a long time!
Great episode! Thank you, Indy and Team.
Thank you for your continued support.
Edward L Beach wrote a book containing the stories of the pacific sub commanders. It is a fun and quick read.
Also a series of novels, starting with "Run Silent, Run Deep".
I've fallen way behind on my episodes I'm glad I caught this one very excellent work
Thanks very much ; enjoyed thoroughly!
Watched from Old Harbour Jamaica. The US add a naval air station near my town call Little Goat Island.
If you wait till you have a serious problem, your behind the curve!
The strength of the American system was being able to take young, motivated and intelligent young men to lead as captains of DEs, DDs and cruisers!
Imagine how much more devastating the submarine campaign against Japan would have been if the Mark XIV had worked correctly from the outset.
Well that's unreasonable. But what if they actually listened? They fixed/upgraded other systems very fast, not the torpedo though.
It wasn't just submarines that suffered - torpedo bombers were less successful because of the torpedo too. For a long time they used torpedo bombers for just regular bombing.
@@recoil53 PT boats suffered as well.
Should mention Conrad Helfrich and the Royal Dutch Navy's submarine campaign against Japan.
Not the UK, USA, SU, Germany or Japan so they don't care.
Excellent video. I'd like to see you do more regarding WW 2s naval battles and campaigns.
I just watched Run Silent Run Deep two days ago! Great episode.
I can recommend Edward L. Beech's "Submarine" for a first had account and also a lot of combat history, written from the point of view of a submariner. (if you can find an old copy) Also his two fiction books, "Dust on the Sea" and "Run Silent, Run Deep".
Eugene Fluckey’s “Thunder Below!” And Richard O’Kane’s “Clear the Bridge!” are also excellent reads.
Indy!.. You make GREAT Videos!!
Germany and America had a similar problem with torpedoes at the start of their resepctive submarine campaigns. One lesson here is that during peacetime, test your equipment.
My stepfather flew anti shipping missions in the south pacific in a navy B-24 flying a couple hundred feet above the water they would skip a bomb off the water into the side of the target. He had a great view being the top turret gunner.
We need a video about the Dutch submarine warfare in the pacific, it's such an underrated topic
Thank you for the lesson.
Thank you for your continued support to our channel
A wonderful video as always 👍🏻👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Great Video as always ❤
Thank you!
Great episode. Thank you!
Thanks Greg!
Thanks for this history lesson 😃👍👏
Brilliant Reporting!!!!
The sort of hubris exhibited over the torpedoes still occurs in the US Military today. I've dealt with it first hand. For some reason, anyone that comes up with an idea for a piece of equipment, a method of training, or something concerning doctrine takes it a personal offense when someone in the field that is actually using the equipment or putting their idea into practice points out a flaw, and the first thing out of their mouths is always to deny there is a problem and to blame the operator for it not working as intended.
IKR? I am just floored by the incompetence displayed by the Ordinance Dept. That they would send subs out there with UNTESTED torpedoes, and then blame crews when they fail to work. What’s more expensive? Losing a few torpedoes in testing or losing a few subs and their crews when those torpedoes don’t perform as advertised?
Christie should never have been made inspector, especially consider he was “inspecting” his own design.
The MK-14
Named because it explodes 14% of the time.
Thanks!
Admiral King giving the commander of the Bureau of Ordinance an ultimatum is what finally jarred them into action, imho.
A great supplementary video to this video would be Drachinifel’s video on the Mark 14 torpedo since it goes more in-depth into the problem that was the Mark 14 than you’re able to in this video… possibly even if you were to make a special about the Mark 14. By no means am I saying you guys don’t make great content, cause you guys do make amazing content, just thought I’d offer up a video suggestion from another great channel that has a more in-depth video on an item of war that relates to this video.
Please don’t overwork yourselves in order to produce the amazing content you fellas make. I personally don’t mind if it takes longer to release new content if it’s because you’re not endangering your health for it.
So effective was the Allied blockade of Japan by the last stage of the war in combination with widespread mine laying in important sea channels that it was proposed as an effective method to force the Empire to surrender. It came to be known as Operation Starvation the brainchild of Admiral Chester Nimitz and was so effective that several Japanese admirals concurred with the US Strategic Bombing Survey that had the programme begun earlier than April 1945 it could have forced an early surrender.
czcams.com/video/aqu4YfqxtJo/video.html
This seems to be a battle of stupidity and stubbornness vs. stupidity and stubbornness. Winning side loses.
THIS is what I've been waiting for....
Great special, as always. Submarine warfare has always fascinated me, so I'm very happy to see you highlighting it again. I especially enjoyed the detailed explanation about the problems the Japanese navy faced in combating American submarine threat.
I would be very interested to hear about the Japanese submarine activities as well. How did their models and doctrine compare to that of the Allies and Germany?
It was a while since we heard anything about Japanese midget-submarines. Were they still in use after Pearl harbor? I also heard that they built submarine aircraft carriers. How effective where those?
Thanks again for making great content. 👍
Japanese submarines were primarily based on the "fleet submarine" concept. The idea was that submarine screens would wittle down the american fleet before the "decisive battle", as they assumed the enemy would transit the pacific (a concept the us had mostly abandoned in favor of island hopping even before the war). I believe they neglected the usefulness of submarines against troop tansports and shipping because they weren't planning for an attritional battle.
As a former American submariner, thank you for tonight's episode.
Thank you for your service.
Rear Admiral Fluckey's memoirs of WW2 when he served as a US submarine captain aboard USS Barb, "Thunder Below," is an extremely good read. He and his crew achieved much during late 43-45, including an action that won Fluckey the Medal of Honor.
Nice video
Convoying, in general, worked well against a sub force that found targets by happenstance. A convoy concentrated ships in a small area, leaving ocean lanes empty most of the time. And allowed concentrating escorts where they were needed. But when shipping lanes were predictable, had bottlenecks, convoys were poorly escorted, and the subs knew convoys' schedules, convoys concentrated targets into a killing "field".
Hi Indy
This episode is very surprising.
Considering japanese navy strength.
Never before heard topic discussed.
Thanks.
The USS Archerfish has the largest kill in one day! 70,000 tons!! The captain was a veteran but lacking the drive of other officer's managed to sink the INJ shinyou!
The other thing about the torpedoes is the submarine captains were actually having there chiefs of the boat open the panels readjusting the fireing pins!! I read that in a book called Pride Runs Deep. Good book..... It has a little bit of everything from action to love with some pride thrown in. And it's actually based on two true stories! The one I mentioned earlier and the name of the ship was actually in real life was a training sub that actually had a real life kill off the New London training facility?
Just now I noticed that Konrad von Hötzendorff is sitting besides Indy all along
The god-father of the two cataclysms.
It’s been a while since I read it so I may be misremembering but one of the problems with the exploders on the Mark 14 torpedoes was that the submariners were TOO accurate. The things were designed and intended to pass under the target ship and use magnetism like a mine to explode, thus breaking the keel and sinking the ship. The problem was the depth controls didn’t work as intended and so the torpedoes would run shallow and hit the targets directly, crushing the detonator so the torpedo wouldn’t explode. The navy went to a less “high tech” detonator and finally solved the problem.
No, the torpedoes ran about 10 feet _deeper_ than they were set for.
Plus the magnetic field in the Pacific something-something different than off Newport in the Atlantic.
And the contact exploder didn't work right.
What a clusterf*k.
@@wwoods66 All things which could have been discovered if the Ordinance Department had bothered to do a few live fire tests....
What is it about US Ordinance Departments that every time the history of procurement in the US is brought up it's always a story about some giant Charlie Foxtrot? They make Milo Minderbinder's orgainzation look competent by comparison.
Nice tie.
I’d love to know what books Indy uses. Maybe he could do a special episode on his best history books that he likes and uses
Great book about the war in the pacific from a submariners perspective is "Thunder Below" by Eugene Fluckey.
His sub, the Barb, *sunk a train* .
Thanks for the recommendation!
Ahhh, you touched on the real systematic problem with the MK14 torpedo exploders. The Bureau of Ordinance was busy being defensive due to leadership links to the exploder project.
Also another great submarine read is Richard O'Kane's (Skipper of Tang) book "Clear the Bridge!"
the number of ships being sunk is quite stunning in terms of materials lost and the fear of being stranded at sea to die. Its almost like a damn suicide mission.
You haven't mentioned the great submarine USS Tigerfish, that managed to sunk a Japanese truck.
One of my favorite WWII movies is John Wayne's Operation Pacific. They hired Adm Charles Lockwood as consultant for the film which through one submarine, the film touches on many true stories, like the faulty torpedoes, that happened during US submarine operations.
For those who are interested in the gigantic cockup and epic denialism of the BuOrd and the Mark 6 Exploder I recommend you to watch Drachinifels hilarious in-depth video about the Mark 14 torpedo.
In talking about US attacks on Japanese shipping, I’m astonished the Black Cats didn’t even garner a passing mention :(
TAKE OUT THOSE FUCKIN’ PT BOATS!
Excellent
For a naval doctrine aiming at fleet v/s fleet action ,it is quite ironic that the imperial navy still lost at Midway.
In defense of Japan they *might* have won at Midway if the plan hadn't been compromised by U.S. codebreakers, or if they had caught a lucky break or two once the two opposing fleets were engaged. While the end results of the battle were lopsided, most of the battle as it was underway was very closely fought and could have gone the other way.
Not that it would have mattered of course, a Japanese victory at Midway would have prolonged the war but wouldn't have been decisive in the way they wanted it to be. It wouldn't have been a war-winner.
Japanese depth charges were weak and exploded above 150 of depth, so US sub commanders went below 150ft to evade depth charging;so losses were low.
For a comprehensive history (1072 pages) of WWII US sub ops in the Pacific, read Blair's "Silent Victory" which covers almost all the missions.
The six million tons of Japanese shipping is an immediate problem in 1942. The army's use of ships for transport are not met by converting liners. Then, the supply requirements for the army and navy garrisons and bases are taking a third of the shipping. It is already a decisive failure in late 1942 as more shipping is diverted to support the So Pacific campaign.
A world war two vet told me about alcohol 180 proof being used in America's torpedoes. Four torpedos could be duds cause the crew drank the alcohol. Some alcohol was poured into tin cans and soldered closed for being smuggled.
When I went thru sub school a couple decades ago, one of the bits of history I remember (pretty sure they told us during the flooding trainer for added dramatic effect on our impressionable gung-ho fresh out of boot camp minds) was that the us sub force suffered the highest loss rate out of every branch and service, 1 out of every 4 men killed, higher even than the 8th air force.
(Still better than the U-boats, which had a 3 out of 4 men killed loss rate)
Confirm reading that Uboat crews had 75% fatality rate followed by Panzer crews at 60%, ordinary infantry at 20%.
Interesting, thanks.
Thank you for watching!
I always find these episodes give some perspective to the sheer scale of international maritime trade. Really interesting.
It's funny you mentioned USS Seawolf. I just reading about her the other day and how she was mistakenly sunk by American destroyers.
U.S. Navy Ordnance Department:
“Should we test these torpedoes before we send our boys into combat with them?”
“Nah, I’m sure they’re fine. We don’t want to waste any ammo. Just put them on the subs and ships.”