The Turbosupercharger: Master Of The Skies
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- čas přidán 18. 04. 2010
- Army Air Forces training film. On the line maintenance, depot maintenance, and flight operation of the turbosupercharger, using a B-17 for demonstration. Explains basic principles of the induction, exhaust, cooling, control, and lubrication systems. Shows how the pilot operates the controls. General O.P. Echols speaks on the value of high altitude flying and Dr. Sanford A. Moss poses with the Collier Trophy (1941). Includes still pictures of experiments on Pike's Peak.
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National Archives and Records Administration
War Department. Army Air Forces. (06/20/1941 - 09/26/1947)
ARC Identifier 2781 / Local Identifier 18-AF-123. #AIRBOYD #AvGeek - Auta a dopravní prostředky
At 19:22 on the left side of the screen is my dad.
What a brilliant piece of engineering. Incredibly effective.
thanks for posting this!
An exellent mechanical demonstration.
brilliant clip thanks for posting
Love stuff like this even though the audio is lacking. Thx for posting.
That general - a truly DYNAMIC speaker...
Fascinating. I would like to know more about early turbochargers. I'm surprised to see this much engineering incorporated into it. Compared to modern turbos, this seems over-engineered by today's standards. I'm very surprised to see that they were ball-bearing as well. I wonder where I can find more info on the Pike's Peak trials.
I knew our turbochargers were used in tank engines. But first time that USAF used in airplanes too.
Seems to me that in WWII turbochargers saved a lot of lifes and helped to win in 1945.
Now I'll look different at mine SAAB one. Thanks for posting.
At around 11:17 a Cleatrack crawler can be seen crossing the screen.
This is an early documentary, made before the Eight Air Force was fought to a near-total standstill by the Luftwaffe. Turbo-superchargers were more effective in the P-47 Thunderbolt escort fighter...but P-47s didn't have the range to take bombers all the way to targets deep into Germany. It took P-51 Mustangs to really save the daylight-bombardment campaign.
My uncle was shot down in b-17..took four Zeros to do it!!
Yeah but the Japanese had VTEC :D
+Batner112 All the lag, none of the boost.
Batner112 yo
kind of like a scuba tank for a airplane?
This film appears to induce the idea that turbosuperchargers are essential to high altitude operations, which is not the case. A good supercharger plus some additives to the fuel can produce aircraft that can match the best turbosupercharged aircraft. Point in case: the German Ta 152 H-1, a high altitude fighter with a ceiling of 15,000 m (thats 49,200 feet) performed very well and used a two-stage, three-speed supercharger. A supercharger is also simpler and less maintenance intensive.
And of course, the idea that Allied bombers are safe from interception just because they are high is laughable.
+Richardsen What's laughable is you thinking the Ta 152 was an airplane that had any significance. You are reaching to the future to find this airplane and this engine. Not to mention There were less than fifty that ever produced. First one came on line in Jan 45, just 5 months before Berlin was overwhelmed. And again, really, there were less than 50 of them.
I find one single combat encounter of 2 of these and one shot down a Hawker Fury pulling up after a strafing run on a train, and the other was shot down BY a Hawker Fury. The 152 is reported to be able to hit 49, 000 feet, I find no references to it being used to attack bombers. using NOX boost! Fighter planes are not dragsters and you could only use the NOX for very short bursts. NOX burns very very hot. It burns pistons. It's use has to be highly managed. You did not fly this plane from takeoff to 49 thousand in a single climb. That's why the Allied planes produced by the tens of thousands did NOT us NOXI
At the time this film was made it was accurate. The most powerful American planes were turbo-charged including the Thunderbolt. This was NOT true for the British. The Merlin's in the Spitfires were multi-stage supercharged.
Then of course, the most important plane of the war escapes you. The P-51 Mustang was a Packard supercharged V-12. That would be the best example of what you are thinking but when this film was made there were no Packard (Rolls Royce) Mustangs.
And for American bombers throughout the war it was the best and ONLY way to make high altitude power.
+Carbon Crank
Your production figures are indeed correct: the Ta 152 H-1 was a _very_ scarce aircraft. But I never claimed that it had an impact in the war. I merely stated that it performed very well at altitude, which is true: its altituve vs TAS speed chart is enviable.
Certainly you didn´t climbed all the way up on nitrous oxide. You use MW 50 below 6,000 m, and then switched on GM 1 or used military power if you felt like it. I a little over 10 minutes you are already at 9,000 m, and you don´t need to go much higher than that, in the context of the time. Of course, the pilot had to be judicious with the use of the GM 1 boost. It wasn´t perfect. But every system has its downsides. Those were the ones of the Supercharger + MW 50 + GM 1 combination.
Along their already stated and aknowledged benefits, turbos had negative points too:
1) They are huge. One of the reasons why the P-47 was so big: i.imgur.com/0F0sFDl.jpg
Or why the P-38 suited itself to the installation of the turbos: the booms had quite a nice bit of free space.
2) They are very heavy.
2) They are complicated. A turbocharger involves a lot of piping inside it. In the P-38, it was close to a plumbing nightmare, markedly increasing the maintenance work.
4) They are expensive, mainly because of the aforementioned reasons.
5) They substract power from the exhaust, which could instead have been used to add a nice extra thrust.
You are correct in that Spitfires or Mustangs were much more common examples of superchargers being put to good use, but I chose the Ta 152 H-1 specifically because the performance difference is so drastic as to make my case more evident.
Cheers!
+Richardsen A supercharger siphoned tremendous power off the engine. At 30,000 ft, the supercharger on the P-51 was using about 1/4 of the engine power for the supercharger.
The reason the turbocharger was so big on the P-47 was the air to air intercooler, not the supercharger. The P-38 also had an air to air intercooler. The P-51 had a glycol cooled intercooler - much more compact.
Regarding the Ta152, why build a fighter that can reach altitudes where there would be no enemy aircraft to engage? What was it going to do up there?
Dan Zervos
I am on a hurry right now, so I will get back to you later when I am near my sources, but to answer your last question in short: B-29s.
The main issue isn't the power, it's the fuel efficiency. A pure supercharger isn't nearly as fuel efficient. For fighters, this generally doesn't matter. But for bombers, every small amount of fuel efficiency extends the maximum range which is tactically advantageous.
Then someone decided to put these in cars
B-17 & 24 crews would have loved to go in and out before enemy fighters would appear....
Thought the same thing; I know it's a wartime propaganda puff piece but man, some of these claims were bold-faced enough to make you blush!
@14:44 while the US was busy making service video on how to repair super charges and touching one of the main component to a Jet engine...somewhere in England and Germany lol
basimpsn
+basimpsn lol? what are you talking about. there were no jets in 42.
+Carbon Crank 1939 the first plane powered by a jet engine take flight and in 1942 the the US test the F-22 lol...you know I was kidding about the f22.
+basimpsn not in combat. i asked what are you talking about because it's not clear. Supercharger as a main component to a jet engine? No.
+Carbon Crank Not the complete unit....Just the idea of a turbine wheel inside the engine exhaust flow to drive a centrifugal compressor for helping the piston engine to breathe...The concept was already there. If that's what you are asking me?
Turbo superchargers = how babies are formed
seems like just a large Turbocharger
It IS a just a turbocharger, they just called it a turbo supercharger because its a supercharger thats run off the exhaust pressure but nowadays we just say turbocharger for this set-up and supercharger when we are talking about a mechanically driven set up for pressurizing the intake
Rex Holes there is actually a belt driven supercharger in this system, it was used to further compress the air and distribute the charge more evenly between the cylinders due to the size of the intake runners from the turbo to the engine a "top up" forced induction system was required, hence the name turbosupercharger
It really was a turbocharger, supercharger. The exhaust powered turbo charger pushed air into a mechanical driven supercharger which then fed it into the engine. Really good way to run a two stroke engine by the way. Supercharger would start the engine then the exhaust would boost up the air.
If the great altitudes of our bombers protected them from enemy fighters as they claim at the start of this film, saying enemy fighters couldn't possibly climb to the twenty five, thirty thousand feet or even higher altitudes of our bombers and they all return to their bases safely, then how did they explain the horrific losses the eighth Air Force was taking prior to the P 38L long range models, and long range P 47s and especially the famous P51 Mustangs allowed fully escorted missions. Even then until they got the stragety correct, accidentally I might add in preparation for D Day where they deemed Air superiority was critical and so instead of placing the fighters with the bombers, or the majority of them, they sent the fighters out in front of the bomber streams and put them in an offensive instead of defensive role in great fighter sweeps. Ordered to engage webs destroy anything with a swastica they turned the tide, even the Germans themselves admit the day the fighters went out ahead of the bombers on the offensive was the day everything changed for them and they knew it was over. But sheesh what did they tell the guys watching this? Oh the fighters aren't killing half our bombers they're just falling out of the sky...
One thing is certain. Without the turbosupercharger that enabled then extreme altitude bombing bombing like we did wouldn't have been possible. It did stretch the German fighters to the edge of their abilities, especially at first until they got the doro 190s, specifically designed for high altitudes but by then the mustangs were escorting the bombers all the way. If we had been forced to fly lower levels then the German boast of never allOwing an enemy bomber over the Reich just might have been accurate. As it was the eighth Air Force stopped daylight bombing after that one horrific raid where most didn't return, it was only the timely arrival of the mustangs, the new long range lightnings and jugs, all three types counter to the people who claim the mustangs Alone turned the tide-anyone remember yammamoto being shot down by a long range lightning operation by chance?- all three types were needed at least initially. Eventually when their numbers grew the mustangs basically took escort duties as the P 47 was released to do what it really excelled at, ground attack. Our day excelled but lest anyone forget, the P 47 thunderbolts shot down more German fighters than any other type America fielded and not only that had more aces, in fact the top aces flew P 47s. It's hard to beat the Jugs incredible eight fifty Cal firepower. A pilot didn't have to be on target very long at all to do massive damage, which is also why it did so well in the attack role, that and it's ruggedness. The P 51 was extremely vulnerable to ground fire by comparison as the Korean War went on to prove.
More likely 1943 or 1944. Definitely not from 1940
Too much "we fly above the enemy fighters" to even be 1943. I'm betting that it was made in early 1942.
I think you're correct about 1942. The P-43 Lancer was mentioned as one of the planes using turbo-supercharging... 4:08. It was an obsolete design when it arrived in Europe, staying just long enough for the P-47 to arrive.
Turbos were being experimented with during World War 1. 1937 was a big year in the USA for the turbo and the most successful was the XP-37 and YP-37. This fighter became operational in small numbers, some in Alaska. The YP-37 wasn't a success as a fighter, but paved the way for the later development of the B-17, B-24, P-38, P-43, P-47 and many others. Turbos were under development in Russia, Japan, England, and Germany. However, the United States was the sole country to mass produce them.
funny looking turbans
This is a turbocharger super chargers are driven by engine or did I miss something
Gary Peatling yes there's a gear driven supercharger and a turbocharger both
Turbochargers ARE superchargers, they're just exhaust-driven. Supercharging simply means positive intake manifold pressure above 7PSI. These engines were actually twin-charged, utilizing a gear-driven centrifugal blower in addition to the turbocharger.
Watching this so I can learn how to use super turbochargers in War Thunder properly
I misspoke , the pledge I intended to say, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, sorry. I never really enjoyed spins, you can get dust in your eyes if no goggles. In 1981 USA Air Force wanted me to fly for them, I was the only one to pass the written and physical in the group, I said no, I wanted to be a businessman, they thought I was nuts saying no, probably the only one they knew passed and said no. The more I thought of it I really did not want to fly upside down.
Like many inventions, full use of super charging is not possible without improvements in seemingly unrelated technologies. In this case, high octane fuels. Without 100+ octane av gas, detonation (knock) quickly became a problem. The higher octane fuels allowed higher compression ratios and greater boost before the onset of detonation.
As an aside, it saddens me to see the propaganda in this film. At very high altitudes bombing results were poor. Losses were dreadful until later in the war.
so much propaganda. :( I hope our men didn't believe everything on these films. I wish our aircraft did fly safely above enemy threats.
+R281 At the time this was made the losses of 17s and 25s were light. You can look at the dailies of the 91st bomb group as an example. the losses in the first couple of months of them being used in 1942 in about October were light. Of course this is both done as theatrics propaganda but it was, at the time, true. The big losses came in lat summer and fall of 43. (My uncle was shot down Dec 2nd 43. 91st bomb group, 324th squadron, "Wheel n Deal") It got bad enough that they mostly suspended deep penetration missions until the Mustangs arrived.
But when this was made in the fall of 42 or winter 43 they could make the came that most of our bomber came home
Hey, thanks for writing out that informed response. I was honestly not aware of our relatively light losses in 1942 and early 1943. Your uncle did a great service for this country.
I know my original reply was short, but I wrote it because the film almost made it seem like our aircraft (thanks to the turbo charger) would safely fly over flak or not get caught by German fighters, which were a big danger as we would find out later in the war. Maybe it was just my interpretation of the film, but I got a sense of real optimism. Actual combat in the ETO would be a real eye opener if I trusted this film before going into combat.
A
That propaganda was for civilian consumption. I doubt that even the enemy was buying it. Luftwaffe pilots shot down heavy bombers; they weren't out of reach by any means.
Russ G the propaganda would have been darkly humorous to the servicemen it's addressed to
Even with the best superchargers, at 30000', the props have still only got rarified air to bite into. Don't for an instant think that the Germans didn't have these! What a laugh.
The Germans didn't have turbosuperchargers, and as a consequence the Bf 109 and Fw 190 developed their maximum speed at 21,000 ft (vs. the 25,000 ft of, say, the P-38, B-24, and others). They were also slower than contemporary turbosupercharged fighters.