Pushing a "legal" Mini Solar System to its LIMIT!
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- čas přidán 14. 05. 2024
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In this video we will not only have a closer look at mini solar system that everyone can easily use; but we will also push it to its limit ;-) By that I mean I will show you how to create an energy storage system or ESS for short. With it you can use the excess solar power to charge a big battery pack and then use the energy in the batteries to later power your home. This way none of your solar power escapes to the power grid. Let's get started!
Thanks to Victron Energy for sponsoring this video
0:00 The Problem with Mini Solar Systems
1:35 Intro
2:13 Installing my Solar System on the roof
4:15 Wiring for the Solar System
6:14 Big Fail! (Solar Panels)
6:54 Energy Storage System (ESS) Explained
7:59 Installing the ESS
9:57 Testing the ESS
11:22 Verdict - Věda a technologie
*Old Design Issues*
- Limited to 600 watts, excess power goes to the grid without compensation.
- No energy storage system (ESS) to store excess solar power.
*New Design Improvements*
- Installed solar panels on the roof for better efficiency.
- Added energy meters to monitor power flow.
- Created a 48V battery pack using four 12V LiFePO4 batteries.
- Used Victron MultiPlus II for energy storage and management.
- Configured the system to use the battery pack as a 600W power source.
*Performance Metrics*
- Reduced grid power consumption to around 50 watts.
- Battery pack charges with excess solar power.
*Future Improvements*
- Need more solar panels for better utilization of the battery pack.
- Approval from local grid provider is required.
*Positive Points (Sorted by Importance)*
1. *Modularity:* The system is easily extendable and customizable.
2. *Energy Storage:* The new design includes a battery pack to store excess solar power.
3. *Monitoring:* Added energy meters for real-time monitoring of power flow.
4. *Safety Measures:* Included circuit breakers and surge protection devices.
5. *Software Configuration:* Allows fine-tuning of power usage and storage.
*Negative Points (Sorted by Importance)*
1. *Cost-Effectiveness:* The system is not yet cost-effective due to underutilization of the battery pack.
2. *Complexity:* The system requires a good understanding of electrical systems and may not be suitable for complete beginners.
3. *Approval Required:* The system needs approval from the local grid provider.
4. *Installation Challenges:* Difficulty in installing solar panels on the roof.
What an awesome summary. I might pin this comment :-)
This man came out of nowhere and just translated everything in a easy way, lol @@greatscottlab
Nice
AI generated, you should try it scott!@@greatscottlab
@@eugeneputin1858what?
The easiest way to actually get your solar panels on the roof, is to simply slide them on your ladder (with shorter side resting on your biceps as you climb up) and another person already up on the roof will grab the opossite side, you won't damage them that way and it is pretty safe. Personally, I've gotten thousands of PV modules on the roofs that way.
Good to know. Thanks for the feedback :-)
@@greatscottlab The first time my wife and I installed panels on our roof, we use almost this method.
The beginning of the roof wasn't super high (3m). The ladder (single straight piece) was laying at about 45°, my wife would put the panels flat on the ladder, I would pull them up with a rope while she would make sure they don't go side ways. Once on the roof, for the time I needed to secure them, she was on the other side of the house, on the ground, with the same rope. Just pulling slighly on it to "block" them.
I had a little piece of scrap metal bend to make a hook to grab the panel at the end of the rope.
I hope I explained it well enough.
Yep just take up the slack
Normally i use scaffolding. For small number of panels or if scaffolding is not possible you can use a handle with suction cups for glass and just climb the ladder with the panel.
Everybody wants to have a house like Scott with all the latest tech installed.
It certainly is fun :-)
@@greatscottlab yes I can tell after seeing everything you've installed so far.
Yea
Certainly when you are paid to promote such super expensive products..
Have you seen what they charge for a Serial cable??
@@tarakivu8861 i literally cannot afford that TBH. It's just a daydream.
Here in the Netherlands we have a thing called "saldering", where anything that you push back to the grid will be deducted from your monthly bill, but that's going to be abolished in the next few years, so I was looking into a system like this as well, and you did exactly what I was planning to do, so thanks for saving me some time figuring everything out!
Happy to help :-)
take a look at some video's from Harold Halewijn. He explains a lot (in dutch) and his company places Victron installations (hetslimmehuis)
Here in the US, we also have a buyback system.
Same here.. the essent guys were pushing us with the salding and they told it won't be put off. I will go for the LiFePO4 back up system like his! Houdoe!
Was also looking into a this system. Now that energy companies hate people with solar panels here in the netherlands. Was reading the victron catalogue for system ideas but Scott made the base plan already for me.
All those breakers and shunts and zigby adapters and yadda yadda is really going to add up. cost wise.
I did 20kw of solar for around $12k US, $15k if you count mistakes made along the way, and some unfortunate equipment failures. I have two small "microgrid" systems like in the video, and about 10kw worth of micro and string inverters that backfeeds the grid. I did it all myself and then had it inspected. I am lucky in several ways, I had land available to mount most panels on the ground. I also have one grid connection that goes to four households, so I have an absolutely huge base load compared to my usage. I send about 8-10% power back to the grid, the rest gets used up or stored in batteries. If I were in a high cost of electricity, it would pay for itself much faster, but 2 years in and it'll be paid off in ~3 more years.
One drawback is it was kind of a hobby, I started with the microinverters... I added a 5kw string inverter, then two hybrid inverters and batteries. But now everything just works, and it isn't much of a hobby. Adding on to what I currently have will have drastically reduced ROI, as whatever I add will largely go back to the grid and they only pay 1/3 of what they charge me. I need to improve the temperatures that my hybrid inverters see.... everything is outdoors but dry. They experienced temperatures this summer that this area has never seen before. Not sure how to best go about this.
When you say it pays itself off in 5 years, you mean if everything goes perfectly. What if you get hail, parts of the system blow out, etc. then it becomes a nuisance. Power from the grid probably never will be more expensive than any other source.
@@orangeflavoredmf After a month of running on generators after a pair of hurricanes hit a few years ago, I resolved to never go through that again. I was driving over all creation looking for gas, changing oil every 100 hours and resetting the breakers when clueless family members overloaded things. I just wanted to keep my grandmother alive with her o2 generator, refrigerated meds, and air conditioning. All that to say, I will lose power again, and the spice must flow... 15 days without power and I'll be at break even. Odds say that'll happen before I have a major equipment loss. There is no one super expensive component. I can take down all my panels by myself in about 6 hours, and with help, about 2. Solar is way, WAY cheaper than gasoline or even propane.
I've never seen hail bad enough to damage my solar panels where I live, but then again I've never seen a solid month of 106F+ temperatures before last month so... who knows and fingers crossed.
@@orangeflavoredmf For these sorts of systems, all the costs are front-loaded. Once the system is running properly you are basically done and your break-even calculation on cost (already spent so you know what it was)... is now guaranteed. In anycase, if it is DIY it will definitely break-even in a reasonable period of time. If it is professionally installed it may take a lot longer to break-even because professional installs are about twice the expense.
The other take-away for people doing DIY systems like 7901, and myself, and others making postings about their systems, is that small DIY hobby systems inevitably turn into large not-so-hobby systems. So it is a really good idea to design the system such that it can be scaled-up piecemeal without having to replace any equipment already purchased.
@@orangeflavoredmf Solar panels are actually _really_ resistant to hail. If something blows out after five years then you get it repaired under warranty. It may be a bit of a nuisance to handle claims but it won't significantly affect your payback period.
@@eDoc2020 You guys might be partially right, I heard Nick Rochefort talking about selling a house with not diy solar on it.
Very nice installation!
A 45° tile roof is very tough for panel installation. (Former rooftop installer)
Thanks for confirming this :-)
Why do the tile seams line up? doesn't that allow for leaks. Just curious, I don't know anything about the tiles.
They ovelrap and hold each other in place@@tiltedbrim83
Nobody has to approve anything, if you go off-grid.
I'm so envious of how modular your distribution box is. Here in North America, industrial electrical systems tend to use more of the DIN rail mounted stuff, whereas at home we typically have a large, steel panel with rigid buses and a fixed number of slots for circuit breakers to plug into the buses. After adding new circuits, I'm running out of space, which means I can either install a larger panel with more slots, or add a second panel fed off of the first one. I don't know if our electrical code allows us to install DIN rail breakers, but it's a more practical setup in my opinion.
Living in a country that uses DIN mount breakers, and having seen more videos about US electrical breakers than I have any right to have, it occurs to me that this might be a deliberate choice - DIN mount systems are more customisable, which means more ways to get it wrong. Not a big deal in countries where you need training to install them anyway, but in the US as far as I'm aware any rando is allowed to install their own mains wiring, so the more idiot proof setup with only one way to do things is probably a good thing.
@@bosstowndynamics5488 The US is 50 countries and over 3,000 local counties in a trenchcoat, so I can't speak for all of them, but it's generally required that you need to get a permit from the local municipality before beginning electrical work that involves running new circuits, after which it may need to be inspected to confirm it meets the local and national electrical safety codes before being energized.
I'm sure there are many folks that don't follow the law, but you will find those people everywhere. If your home burns down from an electrical hazard of your own creation, I wouldn't expect the insurance company to be OK with it, so it's worth doing it the legal way.
@@jaymzx0 That's still very different from needing an electrician to actually do the installing though - not all aspects of an install are going to be immediately apparent on an inspection (eg are the wire nuts actually done up properly), and because it's expected that amateurs can do the install there's a much smaller gap between that and deciding to go rogue
AFAIK, in Germany you are basically allowed to do all circuitry in your home yourself. Only the connection to a city grid should be done by an electrician.
I have recently redone my distribution box (main purpose was to add the RCD breaker) and I first time taking a plastic cover off I was in shock seeing how "a professional electrician" did it before. It was a cable salad... and some breakers were from different companies, but still connected with a rail, that barely fit different breakers. Disgusting and dangerous. So I just watched several youtube videos and did everything myself. costed me 70 Euros probably for new breakers and the RCD. Not a high-tech, right? Cables, their right positions and total understanding of 3 phases current. As a physicist myself, I doubt that sort of "a professional" could do better then me.
Here in Brazil, the North American standard was mainly used until the 1980's. After that, new installations began to move towards European standards. Nowadays most new houses will have breaker panels like the one in this video, with all the stuff mounted over DIN rails.
I really like your videos. I a electrician in the US and I love seeing how you guys do your electrical systems for your house and solar system
I'm jealous of your electrical panel. Here in the US ours are so last century.
We have Leviton and Span panels
How though? Those panels are bigger for less circuit capacity (neglecting voltage differences), more time consuming to wire, and easier to mess up. In the US/Canada we use those kind of panels in industrial all time, because they are more modular, allowing things like those power meters to be intsalled easily, or relays and PLCs, but he could have easily installed it in a sub box like the surge protector, heck even put it in the surge protector box. There is a reason in industrial facilities we still have both these style of panels and typical NA panels. Because if all you need is power the NA style panels are super cheap, compact, and easy to wire.
Cool. Would be interesting to have an overview about the costs.
Maybe with a future video I can do this. Was super hard to get everything done for this video in 2 weeks. Was really running out of time.
Well considering the Victron MultiPlus-II @8:18 ALONE is $3000., Its not gonna be cheap.
Those LiFePO4 batteries are $350 each (with tax) - so, thats another $1400
@@greatscottlab We dont need to know your cost but rather the general market price of the components would be good to know.
My previous job was installing PV systems nearly 20 years ago.
As I can see your roof is the "areated type" so, probably you have some roof tiles that have a little "bulk" with a net to have airflow under the tiles. We used them as cable passages so you don't have to modify tiles.
And we always have blocked the tiles underneath the panels with some PE foam to prevent them from moving (once the panels are installed is quite difficult to reposition the tiles).
Hope this helps.
Good video, just from a safety side, you should probably have DC isolators coming from the batteries, something like the blue sea bs6006 is pretty good, also an AC disconnect nearby to the inverter would also be good, a simple MCB can facilitate this if you want to go simple
Note that some electric companies in Europe strictly prohibit customers feeding any power into the grid without a permit from them. You can get fined and have your power disconnected for unauthorized backfeeding. So be careful and read your local laws and the contract!
Yep. Said that at the end as well. Always check back with your grid provider.
@@greatscottlab You should put a very very big warning in the front of the video as it is not a minor "note" but a series safety and legal problem if the people seeing the video without understanding what they do
In Poland u need permission to install any back feed system and get 2 way meter, also auto disconnect if grid isn't live (eg.when they connect new clients on your street or maintenance).
Also u back feed 23W with 230V, but u need remember transformers work both ways. That's still 23W but when u put that in version 1kV or 10kV hurt a lot.
@@greatscottlab You can arrange the topology in a way that never backfeeds (my mainline comment describes how)... and in fact, in a way that isn't even grid-tied and does not require permission from the utility at all.
0:49 just wanted to say that in such systems you MUST have a way to make sure you are not sending power back to the grid, (unless requested) NOT because you don't get money, because if there is a downed line, it could be assumed dead if its not.
The whole house inverter takes care of this problem.
Properly wired:
1. if the panels/micro-inverters and/or batteries are enough, they supply the A/C to the home
2. if the panels/micro-inverters supply too much power, extra power is sent to the batteries via the whole house inverter
3. if the panels/micro-inverters supply too much power, if the batteries are full, then the whole house inverter shuts off the micro-inverter, and supplies energy to the home.
4. If the panels & micro-inverter power is too little, if the battery is too little, then the whole house inverter enables the A/C mains.
Very impressive setup! However, I noticed you don't appear to be using a battery management system (BMS) for the four LiFePO4 batteries. Are you not worried they might become unbalanced over time, leading to one or more of them getting overcharged / overdischarged?
Edit: I see they are self managed, since each contains 3 or 4 such batteries wired in series, so that should protect them, however they can still get unbalanced, which means the battery will just disconnect in such scenarios :/
I was thinking the same, it wont go boom but it will stop working in the future due to a lack of balancing.
Guess each bank has its BMS inside, that's why he shouldn't connect them in series. Correct me if I'm wrong?
These batteries are designed to be daisy chained up to 4S maximum. I have been doing it for over 1 year will no problem
In the UK at least (of course your mileage will vary) you mustn't put mains voltage in the same conduit as low (data) voltage.
I was also slightly concerned about your comment of just plugging solar into your mains, it's critically important to have an automatic isolator, so that if the mains fails, you are not supplying the grid with power and potentially endangering someone working on power lines they think are powered down.
If in the UK you cant mix data and power in the same conduit how do Doncaster cables do it legally in their evultra cable?
That's what the microinverter does.
The microinverter has anti islanding protection built in
@@metrikmechanik Jeah, but the Victron inverter doesn't care as long there's juice in the batteries, I'm affraid.
@@dusinnhht Are you sure it's not a grid-tied inverter, which it is in this instance and they need to detect mains power or they shut down. Not to mention, if that little inverter did try to backfeed the neighborhood it doesn't have enough ass to do it and will trip itself off or the 50A breaker will trip. Unless the outage is just one or two houses, but yes generally it is still a bad idea to just plug in random inverters and backfeed through them. But, the good thing is most outlets and associated breakers couldn't actually handle the load anyway.
If you install the right assistant,you can run the PV inverter on the output and use it off grid too. There is documentation for "AC coupling" an inverter on the victron site
Hello,
I worked in the ventilation installation, with aluminum ducts, all our supports were either insulated from the ducts or made of aluminum to prevent electrolysis from eating away the aluminum. (according to my boss at the time)
Great to see your new adventures in the Solar world :) It would be interesting to have more details on the Victron ESS configuration with micro-inverters. I did not go this way, I built a 'Custom ESS' using a Hoymiles micro-inverter connected to a battery, a battery charger, and a Raspberry for the brain of the system.
also a friendly warning to read the manual and to make sure your batteries support series connections, some BMS systems will immediately fry itself if you make a mistake
Just wanna let you know you are big inspiration to young technicians such as me
Awesome. Happy to hear it :-)
Take that thing out of your mouth, who knows where it's been!
Excellent! I'm about to launch into this in my apartment in Barcelona. I do have to say that in the US, it's against electrical code to run data cables in the same conduit/tray as high power DC or AC. You might want to get a smaller cable tray to run the data cables only.
Would be good to have a follow-up video with a deep dive into the configuration you have used to do the power management, including the mod bus setup.
A lot of places in the US require that the electric company credit you for generated electricity. Also I think there is more electric magic that requires certification before it can be used.
Hi, thanks for this overview of your upcoming solar system!
No complaint meant, but I can't resist to ask: "What limit did this push...?"
From the title, I would have expected something about how to get a maximum of energy while still abiding to the legal limits. Btw, it's announced that the limit will be raised to 800W output from the inverter next year. When building a system now, one could already have this target in mind. And since the solar modules seem to be some of your less costly devices, some overpaneling would be expected.
Tilting modules could use more of the daylight than fixed ones, of course that would be quite complex, mechanically, and if this is too much hassle, one might consider to let them face into different directions to have a more even energy production during the day. Which, of course, only makes sense, as a way of maximizing immediate usage of the engergy, to reduce battery costs...
I also had the impression, that you have bifacial modules. So mounting them in a way that allows significant light to hit the backsides would be another option. Maybe even reflectors...
Of course you will be aware of all of this (and other things) much more than I am.
Looking forward to the coming upgrades and follow-ups...
I have a similar Victron ESS system installed. The setting you have to limit is the feed-in power to 600w (it's on the ESS menú). No need to limit the inverter power. This way during blackouts, your multiplus will do it's rating... You only need to limit the inverter to the max current your battery bank can provide.
Nice job!
The only direct tie (to the grid) inverters I've seen will not produce power unless the grid is actively working, does the direct tie inverter you use work with and without the grid being live?
The whole house inverter should be able to create an a/c supply when the mains are not active, so grid ties should function.
A Genetry Solar Inverter will sink extra power provided by the grid ties on the A/C outs to batteries, and will turn off the grid tie inverters once the batteries are full (without all those other sensors required by this setup.)
I am finishing the construction of my system, to try to go off-grid, with a grid backup on my whole house inverter.
@@DavidHalko Thank you for the information, solar may be a bit pricy, but the independence it provides is satisfying.
Nice to see some real safety gear for the roof.
Next up Scott is gonna push a mini nuclear bomb to its limit
Don't tempt me
Hey Scott, we run a complete Victron system off grid on our yacht. 3kW of solar and the Quattro inverter chargers as well as other things.
Because you’re using Lithium. Each battery should be independently fused.
Normally you’d fuse the run to a battery bus bar. We also use a battery protect from Victron to make sure they don’t over discharge. It’ll cut providing output if they get too low, (2.8 volts per cell) - so they don’t get damaged.
This video helped clear up somethings and give some deep insight about House solar power generator, always happy with how detailed your videos are!! Would be awesome to have such a detailed tutorial for usage of bench power supplies as I am going to buy one and would like how to use it like a pro!! Thank you for the good quality and keep up the great work!!
Glad it was helpful!
Sunsink hybrid inverter combines all you have their in one unit. It has a ct clamp you put around the mains that measures and assures you not feeding back to the grid. It has a mppt input, but also a aux input to wire the micro inverter into it. That combined with one or two 50 volt batteries is very popular here in south Africa where we have daily grid interruptions.
The victron multiplus-ii has an internal clamp, as well as options to add more
I built a 900W setup for $500 with used panels, lead batteries and a UPS for the inverter. It's not nearly as elegant but it produces 2.5-4kwh a day independent of the grid
Was it 500$ total?
@@killua_148 Yes, full disclosure the batteries were salvaged. The 230W panels were $90ea, 60a controller $50, cables were about $30, the smart shunt was only $12
Can you elaborate?
I have a 20-Amp rackmount APC UPS, just replaced the internal batteries, and was thinking about exactly this.
Where’d you go for used panels?
I’m in Los Angeles btw, plenty of unused daylight.
@@G_handle I bet there's a ton of used panels in your area, I've seen some killer deals on Facebook marketplace. I ran cables from the rack mount 900W sinewave UPS to 3 100ah batteries which is undersized but I run a window AC in the afternoon.
One of the really bright spots on people doing DIY systems is being able to cobble together something like that on the cheap. Using lead-acid does require some care, though. Actually a lot of care for people not used to dealing with lead-acid.
Even though LiFePO4 is a significant expense over lead-acid, it is usually worth the price. No outgassing, huge cycle life, no maintenance, no memory, and partial cycling does not cause extra wear.
As an alternative, there are tons of "power stations" on the market. For example, a small one with a UPS function would be something like the ECOFLOW River 2 (256Wh, LiFePO4 battery), with UPS function, 300W output (600W surge), and solar MPPT input.. Power stations require virtually no work to set up with a few solar panels. Brands like ECOFLOW, Bluetti, Oukitel, and others. Quite generic stuff these days.
Your attic and utility room seem like the cleanest ones Ive ever seen. :)
Impressive electrical panel that wouldn't feel out of place in a small factory 😀
The project is not a balcony project anymore... The beauty of staying under 800W is that no permission from the grid operator is required and its simplicity.
Victron products are high quality and well designed, but not cheap. You should make a follow up video to find out what is payback time with 10kWp PV system and bigger ESS :)
If you don't mind the suggestion to offset the small panels for the batteries you could wire a separate charger for the batteries that charges them on your valley electrical rate (normally around 11pm-12am to 4am-5am) so you start the day with mostly topped of batteries into your solar day, where you use the power you need and keep the batteries topped off, so you can use them at peak rate (normally 5pm-6pm to 10-11pm).
This is still not optimal power wise as you will end with 100% charged batteries many days, which you could tune. but it will minimize electrical bill as it reduces the most expensive tier consumption to almost 0 (and at a time the panels are almost useless)
I'd be surprised if his inverter can't do so already, I know of a few Chinese(not ethnically, just made in China) inverters that can be programmed to charge the batteries from the grid with a great deal of flexibility and freedom.
@@wyattutz There are hybrid inverters, inverter-chargers, and just plain old inverters.
Hybrid inverters generally have everything. Solar inputs, battery connectors, built-in charger, AC outputs, and usually also AC inputs (generator or grid). Some have three sets of AC connections. Generator, Grid, AC out. They also usually integrate necessary breakers (but battery cabling still needs appropriate fusing)... and can greatly simplify wiring. But at a price.
Inverter-chargers have AC input, AC output, and battery connections with a built-in charger and inverter but no solar inputs and generally very little in the way of protective breakers.
Normal inverters are just inverters. DC in, AC out.
Generally speaking the best way to handle load support from the grid is to buy a battery charger that has a "power supply" mode. You can then simply set the output voltage to the mostly-empty SOC voltage of the battery so the charger provides load-support up to its rated amperage when the battery gets low. That is, the charger would NOT charge the battery, it would simply provide load support. That way you aren't wasting grid consumption unnecessarily.
This mechanism usually has all the desired characteristics. The solar will power the equipment and charge the battery during the day. When night falls, the inverter will run from the battery. This will usually last all the way through the utility's peak pricing period. When the battery becomes depleted, typically much later in the evening, like 10pm or midnight, the charger will step in and start providing load support.
Usually the charger's current ramp takes a few hours to go from 0A to full support of the load, because as the charger takes load away from the battery, the battery voltage actually recovers a bit. So the battery will continue to supply most of the load at the beginning and slowly ramp up from there, usually taking a few hours as the battery supports less and less load before the charger is supporting the full load.
This does have to be a battery charger, such as a Victron battery charger, that has a "power supply mode". It cannot be a normal DC power supply because normal DC power supplies do not generally have sufficient reverse-voltage tolerance on their outputs. A charger does. That is, if you unplug a normal power supply from the grid or turn it off, there is now reverse voltage (the battery voltage) on its outputs verses the 0V on its inputs. This can burn out a normal power supply. Battery chargers are designed for this condition and don't have a problem with reverse voltage.
Your Distribution panel is the biggest one I’ve ever seen for a normal home that’s crazy
I looked into doing something similar, although at a slightly smaller scale, and here in Australia you can have a maximum of 500W without having to get the system inspected by a certified inspector (and pay them for it, of course). And that's without the grid tie-in. It has to be completely stand-alone, and if you want to connect any system to the grid, irrespective of its size, it needs to be inspected and certified to meet all electrical and safety standards.
Personally, I did the cakeulations and I could run my network gear off a 500W system with a modest battery. However my NAS would use too much energy, which cause the battery to run out overnight sometimes, so it would have to be run off mains (with an IUPS, of course). But the cost of the system probably isn't worth it because it only saved me a little money from my electricity bill. Although that was years ago, before energy prices started skyrocketing, so perhaps that equation has changed now.
I love that this channel has content for everybody.
In Ukraine we have "green tariff", it's what you call "Feed-in tariff", the electric grid company actually pays you for the electricity you give back to the grid from your renewable sources like solar panel.
I think his issue is there is no smart meter for the utility company to measure his feed in.
@@Alan.livingstonexactly, gernany is years behind in smart meter implementation, so the general conditions domestic customer experiences are not very optimal and workarounds as this are done.
We have the same in australia, they buy the electricity off us, but charge us more per kw than they pay us for it if we use from the grid.. its called a grid tie inverter..
What keeps power from entering the grid from your panels in case of a grid outage? That is a major problem we have to deal with here with solar on homes.
There is a disconnect switch in the MultiPlus 2
And that part should be checked regularly, u don't want backfeed if grid is dead.
@@mateuszzimon8216 The micro-inverters will shut-down on their own, even if the MultiPlus doesn't disconnect the grid. Microinverters do not try to run the grid. Basically this is governed by the UL1741 and UL1741SA standards.
@@junkerzn7312 yes, but u can get certified device and by neglecting u can hurt someone. That's why RCDs have test button and text test once a year. It's like "not used muscle disappear"
Awesome work! Really cool that your power utility allows all this!
I've just finished a project to install a 48/5000/70 multiplus-ii in my garage along with 12KWh of storage (16x230AH LiFePO4 cells) - I don't have solar, but I can now buy energy when it's cheap and use it when it's expensive. I'm going to add another track of cells to my project and then add solar/wind on the DC side
The hardest part of this tutorial is owning a house.
Wow! amazing
how much do you think it takes for the current setup to be financially cost effective or at least cover its own costs?
and how much do you estimate the total cost of such a system?
Total cost. Maybe around 4500€. But you will have to add around 600€ more for maybe 1.6kW solar more and MPPT charger. Then this system could pay for itself in maybe 5 to 15 years depending on electricity prices. But truth be told, for me this is not all about ROI on such a system. I just love solar and creating my own power :-)
@@greatscottlab great attitude!
Brilliant work, dude! Really well done!!! 😃
I just installed solar panels at home this week! 10 550w panels and inverter. (Well, I didn't, the company I hired did it. 😬)
No batteries, the energy goes to the grid, but the electricity company installed a 2 way measuring... thingy... I don't know the name in English. 😬
So, the little clock runs both ways and it generates credits that we can use up to 50 months after. You know?
I think about putting another 5 panels and batteries... But it was a heck of expensive already, so I'm going to have to wait. 😂
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Thank you i just needed to watch this especially that part of a shunt resistor from the battery pack
Nice setup! Good for you! Surprised though you didn't choose to make the solar panel follow the sun since that would be way more efficient than to mount them on the roof... I know you've made a video about it few years ago. And I think is better to put panels horizontally on the ground than on a 45º incllined roof.
There is a big concern with the old design, the "leaking" energy that goes into the grid can be dangerous for the technicians working on the grid because they can disconnect the power input but they don't know that you are sending electricity and so they could be electrocuted so be careful guys
The MultiPlus 2 has a disconnection relay that disconnects from the grid if the power goes down. Prevents this.
Pretty much every on-grid PV inverter has anti-islanding protection and will de-energize its AC output once there's no feedback from the grid.
What software is the wiring diagram created with? Looks really clean
Nice work!
I have taught about buying some batteries for building something like a power station. One nice feature would indeed be to have the possibility to use solar panels to charge them, so this gave some inspiration
Glad I could help :-)
Scott please don't put the batteries on the floor. For now atleast put them on a piece of wood. And later put them into a fireproof box.
For the millionth time batteries on the floor do not discharge. Second of all those are LiFe with an integrated BMS, there's zero fire risk.
Very cool idea, I was not aware such battery solutions exists. If I understood it correctly you could have make the battery and it's inverter connect to the house's main via a normal AC plug, just like with the balcony power generator, since it's essentially doing the same, just with a different kind of power source. Too bad these self-installable balcony solar generators are not allowed in Hungary. (actually all additional solar request are on hold indefinitely, because the grid is in such a bad state that it can't accept more..)
In the Netherlands we have smart meters, those contain a so-called P1 port which spits out the energy consumption every second. Unfortunately our meter has that port hidden behind a panel with a seal on it (business installation), opening up that port means a tech from the metering company has to show up. Since we also do not yet have a battery storage we keep it this way. During day time the whole company runs on 100% solar power, delivering some energy back into the grid for just 7 cents per kWh.
As soon as we get a battery system and/or EV charging solutions, we have to look into getting our P1 metering readout to work. Adding an extra metering solution will be a bit tricky with a 400V, 100A installation.
You did an excellent job, Scott. Hope you manage to expand it soon, you may not need grid power. Thanks for sharing.
I'm also hoping to start a solar project this year, thanks for the info
Sir u can also Ground racking for mounting modules in your backyard , give a tilt of 20 to 22 degrees towards South around 180Azimuth for best generation
Been to Europe really like the clay tile roofs. In Canada majority of roofs are asphalt tiles, lucky to get 15 years out of them, one big con game. When I built my house installed a steal roof 30 years ago, it will out last me. When I installed my solar panels it was easy to attach the the tall ribs, never a leak.
Hi GreatScotts, awesome video btw, love the new lab. However, in this system when you're connecting multiple 12V LiFePO4 batteries in series, don't you think a battery management system (BMS) is needed?
Nice idea! I am also using a multiplus and smart shunt in my camper van. If some of you guys are into DIY, the Victron Venus OS, running on the cerbo is available to run on a Pi3/4. (By Victron) So I could save some € and still have nearly the same functionality compared to 60€ versus 250€. You also need some adapters to connnect the Victron Bus. works for me for 2 years now.
there are some nice Automatic Transfer Switches for your 120AC for when your battery goes below certain voltage in the 10ms range instead of doing the Victron Route as well.
Nice setup. But if back feeding is a problem, why not go with MPPT's on the DC bus of the Victron set? Right now if something happens with the Victron set (or the breaker get tripped) you will still feed back to the grid. Alternative, connect the inverters to the output of the multiplus. Also this way solar will still work in case of a blackout.
Thanks for the feedback :-) Good ideas :-)
Also way more efficient to use a MMPT inverter if you have 12V DC. With the micro-inverters you lose energy two times: when going from solar DC to AC 220 and when going from 220 AC to 12V DC battery pack. I made the same mistake ten years ago. Today I have MMPT inverters and 48V LiFePo4 batteries.
@@baaf777 MPPT direct to dc is always more efficient then dc-->ac-->dc. you can use a MPPT on 48v no problem. just need to make sure your string mppt voltage = max battery voltage +5v.
If it is correctly wired, A/C coupled will not back-feed the grid, since the whole house inverter should shut off the micro-inverter.
If the breakers leading to the whole house inverter trips, which is supplying the A/C to the grid tie micro-inverters, then the micro-inverters will shut off, and all power to the house is shut off.
If the grid power goes out, the whole house inverter will feed the grid tie micro inverter & the house power will be maintained.
I built the same out of a $30 inverter, a $40 charger, two 30ah batteries $200 each and a $8 esp8266 4-relay board. Power measurements by $110 shelly EM3. All comms over WiFi. Seems to work. It is on/off, generating 130W or charging at up to 150W. No continuous adjustment.
Now i want to use openweathermap to estimate next day sunshine hours and set the battery charge state accordingly. If no sun next day charge with every PV excess available. If sun tomorrow discharge batteiers over night.
Solar doesn't have to be expensive. Common sense goes a long way. Of course that doesn't net $1000's of dollars of equipment from a major commercial enterprise on a million dollar+ youtube account.
I did the same at my mom's house in Portugal. I used mainly Renogy material (way cheaper than Victron but more limited) and 1.4kw of solar. 10 months of the year she's completely off-grid and there's a plugin hybrid car charged as well. Where i live (nw of France) it doesn't make financial sense as my main power consumption is during winter. I wanna give wind power a try but wind generators are still quite expensive.
Just a little Note here in Canada and I think in the USA too if you dont have a Propper Hydro Meter, the power you put in does NOT reverse the Meter it will charge you for giving them free power ... it see the power flow and add it as power used.. the meter replacement cost $2700.00 from the Hydro company.
Your attic and electrical panel are so neat and tidy 👍
could add some wind funnels to cool the backside of the panels, helps power production, funnel should stick out above the roof and catch from any direction ?
Our house still has that old kWh meter that has a spinning disk. If ever i had your initial solar setup I think the excess solar power would still go to the grid but spins the meter backwards
Great Video! Thanks for always giving us awesome content! What software did you use for the diagram 07:59 ?
This is a really good video which has made me think more about what provision I could do/get for my home. Thank you ☺
Do you still have to check with grid provider if you never give any energy back to the grid? Thinking about having solar energy for during the day and only take minimal energy out of grid and use grid normally during night. That way I can use high current loads during the day (like charging the car, cooking,...) and lower grid energy consumption.
I know, they have to allow us to install solar systems if we return energy to the grid, but what is the case if we do not put anything in the grid? To outside we would just look the same consumer as before, but with minimal to no consumption on during the daytime.
Looks like your Powers array is holding up alright. I reached out to Signature to get a quote on one, but looks like they no longer sell them. Thanks for the video!
This is a great overview of the complexities involved in combining solar and grid power. Backfeeding is not only a waste of your your energy, but is illegal in many (most?) places without the proper equipment and the cost to buy and install such equipment can be more than the cost of a small solar setup. The system we see in this video is not inexpensive and it will take many years to recoup such an investment.
Backfeeding is *dangerous* as it could power the grid during an outage or when technicians are otherwise working on the line. DO NOT backfeed into your own electric system without disconnecting your main breaker or installing an approved disconnect system.
I have used an ad hoc system with a gasoline generator during multi-week power outages, *but* I always turn off the main breaker and feed a garage sub-panel through dedicated breakers with all 220V (U.S.) equipment breakers switched off. Electrician experience or advice is helpful and you must make sure that no one in your household will ever turn on the main breaker before uninstalling all power sources.
I suggest starting with a solar system that's separated from grid power entirely to avoid these issues until you decide to, or can afford to, properly integrate the solar. Such a setup can consist of just a couple of solar panels and a portable power station, which is much less cost than the full setup shown in this video.
Many people will be perfectly happy with a "workshop" system that runs lights and small equipment separately from the house wiring, but which can be used in emergencies to run a refrigerator or gas/oil furnace from extension cords.
Yes, you sacrifice the daily solar contribution to your house power, but you can power your lab, workshop, or garage while learning what to expect from a larger, more expensive system. PV systems are easily expandable and advancing technologies make it smart to start small and expand over time as cost efficiencies continue to improve with solar panels, batteries, and equipment.
A lovely "on-grid" hybrid inverter/charger set up! Thanks for sharing.
Perhaps a simpler way that some of us are pursuing, is an "off-grid" hybrid arrangement. In this case we do not feed any power back into the thr grid, whatsover.
Circuits are supplied with power from the hybrid inverter only. The inverter uses all of the battery power, then has an automatic bypass that takes power from the meter.
With plenty of (old) batteries, what is the point of seeking approval and putting power back into the grid?
You probably could find a Leiteraufzug rent service to get panels up there, though a bit expensive if there's only two panels, but definitely something to take into account when DYIng a solar panel
True
ESS is a nice trick. Given the size of the Multiplus 2, the logical upgrade is to put (at least) one large PV Array with a Victron MPPT Battery Controller directly charging the battery. Of course, the next ugprade is to put a slightly bigger battery 😁
I have to correct one major point of this video though: Balkonkraftwerke are eligible for the EEG-Compensation. This is due to the fact, that the eeg was reworked for 2023 with the implementation of the "EnSig 3.0", which deleted a very important passage in the eeg, the one where you have to be able to limit the power of the AC Inverter to 70% of the Solar panels max Wattage. Per the old EEG, if your AC Inverter didnt support this feature, your Photovoltaic-System was sanctioned and you couldnt get any compensation for the Power you fed back into the grid - and none of the 600W-Inverters supported this feature. Now though, since every PV--System up to 25 kWp can just pump out 100% energy, there is no justifiable cause to sanction the Balkonkraftwerke anymore and your small system would be eligible for the full Einspeisevergütung.
Were installing 34 large Jinko mono full black 420Wp panels. They go to the three biggest inverters victron has in its assortiment after an mppt, wich goes to different batteries ( i believe lithiumfosfate?? ). Hoping price will drop monthly now...
Do you make Balancing Charging for the battery pack? these look connected in series ...
That's a pretty neat looking storage setup you have on your wall! I wonder, is it anything specific or just generic stuff you added your own touches to.
You should look into selfish/hybrid inverter. Instead of powering you mains wiring, they have an output outlet on them. They can take battery, mains input, and solar input and use whatever is available like your system. The main difference is that any devices you want to power need to be on the output port. This works great if you only have one big appliance that draws constant power. I found out when looking at alternatives to a UPS for my server. This way you don't really tie into the grid and don't have to deal with any backfeeding with the only downside that you cant use existing house wiring for all your devices
Utilization of solar power in your method will be in most domestic installations much lower, and so low that it will no longer be economically feasible. Also, you would need RCB protection circuit as well, and that point, wel ..
Depends, if whatever you are powering draws the largest percentage of power in your house, its a great option. Assuming your solar system is smaller than the draw, you don't lose out on wasted power. My server draws between 0.5-1kw so as long as I don't over produce by an excessive amount it is not an issue. The hybrid inverters should have the proper protections to prevent backfeeding during an outage or when draw is less than what is produced @@96Lauriz
If you've got those Zigbee communicators, do you have this integrated into a Home Assistant instance for any interesting automations?
What protection do you have for the linemen working on the power line. They switch off a section of the grid so that linemen can fix stuff but they might not have control over systems like yours which feed the grid.
Kabel in der Holzkonstruktion im Dach mach ich nur in zusätzlichen Metallrohren, weil das Holz in der Sommerhitze so trocken wird, dass auch ein kleiner Kabelschmorer einen dicken Balken entzünden kann.
Hey @GreatScott! Love this Video !
Do you know how much the whole Victron stuff iteslf on Energy Konsumes ?
Some Recomendations: -
put Balancer between the Battery‘s
- use cerbo build in node red to stop the inverter working if battery is empty or at night, to Safe energy
Good choice, i using vitron for over 4 years in different application, its great
i use those exact same batteries (except the brand is called "li time" but otherwise identical specs and markings) at work. im almost done charging them so i can drop them in a 24v power pallet jack for the battery replacement. doing a 2s2p. 24v 200AH. nice to see theres other brands making them too. i was iffy about them but they checked out in my load tests and if other brands are cloning them then theyre most likely ok.
Good job and video, with one thing missing, total price for working project. Does it worth at all? Consider that batteries will be replaced after 3-5 years of constant working. Calculation does it worth should be calculated for usage period of 3 years. Can you please provide this conformations ?
👍 @7:22, admiring toroidal core current transformer. 🤓
Such a thing is awesome to see in such devices. It certainly says quality product.
There used to be a term 'guerrilla solar' for unlicensed solar installs... To be honest if you are looking for ths simplest solution, take your 600w of solar+batteries and use this to power your fridge freezer. Add a relay so that it connects fridge back to mains power when battery is empty.... You won't be paid for power, but fridge/freezer is likely the largest electrical load (appart from heat/water heat) and will easily consume all that 600w panel can produce.
Side benefit is that you are better protected for grid outage.
When I saw the grinder...thirst thing that popped into my head...use corldess tools with a soler setup, same voltages less waste energy.
A fast charger that can charge 2 or more batteries at a time can be powered by a small dc to ac inverter. At a time on big site I kept 2 impact drills, 2 cordless drills and one impact drills batteries charged during the day by keeping the car on, and a small soler panels on the cars roof.
- There are MP2 Versions with integrated gx device
- Multiplus is enough for battery monitoring, shunt is useless in your setup
- One smart meter would have been enough, the victron system needs only to know how much energy gets exported. Also there is an ethernet version (get rid of zigbee).
Do you need a kind of top balancing for your four LFP Batteries?
Nice Video, my problem is storage. Currently my panels produce 4.6Kw in full sun. I have about 580Kwh in storage and I have spare panels to double my production. So I need much more storage in future.
Victron kit - although expensive is the best power system out there. it can simply monitor everything and can scale up to small power station level.
The flexibility is top of the tree, my system runs via 1 multiplus and as soon as the power requirement reaches over 2+ kilowatts it kicks in the second multiplus inverter seamlessly. I can't name another system that can do this.
You missed using a Raspberry Pi and a few cheap interfaces to replace the GX - save yourself some cash 👍
Rope is your best friend when moving objects or hanging yourself off a roof - working aloft always needs good consideration.
Take care & keep up the good work
P.S. should say my system is off grid - no connection to the grid supply
Here in British Columbia, Canada; our electricity provider, BCHydro, allows for net metering. Meaning you can use the grid like a battery and only pay for the excess energy you take. Making adding solar panels profitable in the long run, but you don't get any backup power if the grid goes down.
Hi @greatscottlab, This video is just what I've been looking for. I have a solar array on the roof and a 3 phase inverter from Huawei. I just want to add a UPS capability to it, for when the grid is down and also I'd like for the solar to still be functional during the day. Seems like this is a perfect solution. Do you know if such setup would be possible though with this device?
Requirements:
- Current solar setup working while grid is down
- Charging batteries for the night, when excess power is produced by solar array
- No charging of batteries from the grid
- UPS functionality for the whole house, when no grid available
The idea is to limit the amount of power that I need to buy from grid provider during the months when Solar is most effective (March till November in my case), and "bite the bullet (electricity bill)" when I have no other option.
I guarantee that if I did a DIY install like this on my place the comments section would be filled with so many "That's illegal!" and other regulatory compliance comments that you wouldn't be able to see anything else.
Any way to hook such panels up to a UPS? I would like to do the same with less (expensive) components.
What program do you use for the wiring schematic?
Is it worth taking off the axle and greasing the bearings ? And removing the cover to grease the nylon gear with a dedicated grease ?