What's Wrong With The Engineer?
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2017
- This video is a simple look at the things that make the Engineer a weaker class, as well as what sometimes makes the Engineer a bit... too good of a class. If game balance rants are your thing, you'll probably enjoy this one.
My discord, socials, TF2 servers, merch, information about my in-game settings, and video credits (such as the music used in my videos) can be found on my website at uncledane.com
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The TF Team's balance changes blog post: www.teamfortress.com/post.php?...
Email the TF Team with your opinions on the above information: www.valvesoftware.com/email.ph...
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![[TF2] Weapon Stereotypes! Episode 7: The Engineer](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UXCWi26Ahpk/mqdefault.jpg)
I'd say I agree with literally every single thing you said in this video. Though then again I'm a spy main so I'm sure my opinion isn't wanted here.
I'll say this. If you make the engineer a stronger support character than his teammates are more likley to care about his existence in more casual settings. I see so many hardcore engineer players ranting and raving when their team ignores them and their buildings and they get harassed to death.
Sure, everyone understands that a sentry is good when it's the same color as the shirt on your back, but it's not something that's going to stand out to your teammates in most situations. It seems to me that people treat it like scenery most of the time, which is a shame but it is what it is.
Meanwhile, dispensers and teleporters are super engaging for your teammates and they make them love you. Sure, in a lot of situations a gun will get more done than that portable refill station, but if you have that portable team pick me up in the right spot it becomes very clear which one is more valuable in your teams minds.
So if you make the engie a better support then you can expect to see teams taking more care in protecting their engineers and their buildings, which in turn will actually go a long way to mitigate any nerfs you see that are intended to make the engineer less of a stonewall character and more of a back wall character.
Though again, filthy spy main, nothing I say can be trusted.
"I'll say this. If you make the engineer a stronger support character than his teammates are more likley to care about his existence in more casual settings. I see so many hardcore engineer players ranting and raving when their team ignores them and their buildings and they get harassed to death."
Honestly most teams don't really care much for their medics either
Pinning this not just because you agree with me, but more because you bring up an interesting point that I didn't consider: clear-cut support classes get supported more. A lot of Engineer players are complaining that it's tough enough to survive in pubs already because no one helps you. Well if you start keeping people alive more often... then maybe they'll start actually Spy-checking for you! At a higher level of play this isn't as much of a problem because of the increased amount of teamwork, and the importance of the Engineer is more realized - but as it stands in lower-skilled environments like Casual Mode, Engineers are looked at to be defensive tanks who are expected to take the brunt force of everything that is thrown at them.
And to be clear, not to you, but to anyone reading this who is thinking that I want to "nerf the Engineer". What I wanted to make clear in this video is that while I want to nerf only two very specific aspects of the Engineer's role, and two specific weapons that aid those elements too effectively - I also want to BUFF the Engineer in the ways that he is currently too weak (such as healing and supporting). So it's a trade-off. A tit-for-tat kind of thing. A "balance", as some would call it. Not a pointless nerf in one direction.
Tbh making him more support- like in terms of heals probably isn't a good thing - Engineer supports in a different way which makes him unique - Although making him more of like medic may make him valued a bit more in terms of 6v6 or comp, I doubt it will have any lasting effect in pubs\ casual since many don't support the medic begin with
i build them a Dispenser lvl 3 that everyone hogs and no one cares to defend, i place a Teleporter in a good spot that no one is willing to use, but if i place a lvl2 Sentry because no one is helping me spycheck, bounce explosives or somehow deal with an Ubered Heavy, i get vote kicked
I know that feel man
feels bad
It's funny, At first I thought "oh this is from 3 years ago it's outdated" then I remembered the last time we had an update. *Sigh*
It kind of is outdated. Jungle Inferno was AFTER this video, and so was Blue Moon
Lol
Hey hey
*Guess what*
@@Nyxael5845 YEEEEEEEEEES !!!!!
Dane had an ambassador to his head when he said "remove cooperative engineering"
Maybe it’s Mr. paladin Holding the ambassador
@spinosarus yep definitely mr. paladin
Knowing the stereotype for it, it would still miss even when it’s touching his head
Ha ha, just like when I say somthing about the CCP
@@da2fortheavy342 or maybe stabby stabby
"Remove cooperative engineering"
Someone get a Pyro main to check if Mrpaladin is impersonating Uncle Dane again.
I'm a semi pyro main, do I count
@@mahbubmaleksyed5301 u got a flamethrower so thats good
Ugh this is the 5 time this month...where is my flare...
Backburner is the perfect karma for Spy mains
I had to check the date of this video after they said that
Uncle Dane: "I'm suggesting the removal of Cooperative Engineering."
Me who learned from Engineering 101: "Years of academy training wasted!"
Yes
mooooood
*Insert engineer A U H sound effect*
(Engi mains know what I’m talking about)
@@flinguine6049 I get the feeling it’s the auh that comes directly before, “how did you know?” In the heavy is dead. That’s just the memory of that noise that sticks with me the most.
Same partner
Damn, that's a good-ass spy. His Uncle Dane voice is almost perfect
2 years late here, but I don't see any flaws with it; are there any lines in particular he stumbled on?
@@tekayo63 It's a joke about how Uncle Dane is suggestion some stuff that could effectively weaknen the Engineer in its current state, and joking that it is not him, but a Spy
@@prediculous8059 It's also a joke about how Spy perfectly imitates the voice of anyone he's disguised as
@@tekayo63 Evryone back to the base pardner
He stumbled on the intro, the real Dane loves dispensers, but the intro doesn't have one
"I like tf2 because its a team based shooter that requires players to work together to win"
"Let's remove cooperative engineering"
There are other forms of teamwork than cooperative engineering. He gives reasons why valve should remove it.
@@jimbo491 woooosh
@@mroboba What makes that a woosh? Both of the quotes involve different types of teamwork; one with many ways to work together, and the other, well, cooperative engineering. Removing cooperative engineering won't completely remove teamwork, just make one strategy less powerful. Again, like i said, Dane gives reasons why valve should remove it. And yes, this paragraph's worth of text was totally worth it to write in response to the oh so wonderful woosh.
King Muselk goddamnit I spent like a long time on this, like 30 seconds, and you don’t even reply!
@@jimbo491 lol
It’s an awful idea to put engie on the same level as Medic.
Medic can’t Area deny, Medic can’t teleport people, Medic can’t give ammo.
If Engie is just as good a healer he’s the more survivable Medic.
Ah, but what if making Engi compete with Medic came at the cost of some of his other functionality, like giivng up the ability to make teleporters or dispensers with a new PDA akin to the Gunslinger?
@@MrJoeyWheeler well then he may as well be medic 2.0
@@MrJoeyWheeler Yee, he might as well be a medic sub class at that point
See I agree with this, because like you said, Medic only really has healing and Uber (unless you're Array Seven). Making Engies heal as much as medics render them useless except for an Uber push
Damian Freeman whats the point if MedicLite then?
It would be like giving scout a rifle with such a tight spread and high dmg he could 2 shot a heavy from across the map- yeah, it’d be fun, but then you should just play sniper, especially if it came at the cost of scout’s speed.
“We all know that class limits won’t go over well”
*proceeds to suggest something that would go over way worse*
Mr. paladin is probably disguising as him again
I seriously hope there will be a class limit since it’s so damn irritating when half the team are nothing but spies and you’re one of the only few who are trying different classes and weapons to make up for the lack of actual semi competent players.
@@CosmicFearUkulele even worse when the other half are snipers
@@CosmicFearUkulele I mean its called casual for a reason
@@eh2587 just because it’s called casual doesn’t mean that it’s ok to be the 4th spy or sniper
Please don't hurt cooperative engineering... It's those magical moments where we help a f2p engineer build his stuff and then the f2p decides to help build your stuff as well... And then they get their first highfive... It's the stuff tf2 dreams are made of, I tell ya hwat.
If anything, make it so it takes more swings to add metal to other engineers buildings, like 10 or 15 metal a swing, instead of the 25 on your own buildings.
I was about to propose this idea! Oh well.
how the fuck is that amazing who would think being polite is a rare thing and would be this overhyped
My thoughts exactly, co-operative engineering should get a nerf but not so much as to remove it or discourage players from doing it. some aspects of it should still be unchanged such as two hit sapper removal and dispenser metal collection rates. That wrangler shield around the player idea was also spot on.
Nevermind about what I said, I thought it was engineers in general that should have lower metal consumption
thats a great idea, GonBluV!!! I totally agree!!!
Removing the ability for Engineers to interact with each other's building will absolutely ruin the class. Reasons:
1) Spies become God against engies. Since engies can't remove sappers from each other's buildings, all a spy has to do is backstab the sentry owning engineer, or make sure he's too far away, and the building is guaranteed to be done for. Unless there's a Pybro involved. But let's face it, those aren't the most common.
2) Explosives will become an even MORE dominant meta. Since the splash damage could easily kill an engineer due to him being le squishy squish, explosives will become way more effective against engineers than they already are. And let's face it, they're already absurdly effective due to chipping tactics. The only possible counter to this would be the Rescue Ranger, effectively making it the only engy primary worth using anymore. Without it, say hello to rockets in face hole. Engies will basically have to choose between letting the sentry be destroyed by a soldier chipping at it with rockets, or get killed by the rockets, THEN have their sentry explode since nobody else can fix it.
3) Engineers would go from being tied to their buildings to being CHAINED to them. Can't ask another engy to watch your stuff anymore, or rely on them to act if your stuff comes under attack and they happen to be nearby when you're off somewhere. You have to sit your ass on those buildings all day now. Thrilling gameplay. Nough said.
4) Engy will become marginalized. The teamwork is part of the appeal of engies. Not to mention it's what makes them viable for objective defense that requires rapidly reforming a shattered defensive line. Making it so engies can't interact will turn the game into Steamroll Simulator, making stock Ubercharges yet another God against engies in the process. I could go into more detail, but I'll hold back on that for now.
These are just the things I came up with off the top of my head when you suggested this idea. I could come up with more, but I'll let it be for now.
As for your other idea... Well...
Making Engy Healing Focused via Dispenser Buff:
Congratulations. The Engineer is now a fixed position version of the Medic that is very easily killed, and will rarely have a chance to actually do jack shit in gamemodes like CTF, and will be barely useful in any other gamemode. His only redeeming trait will be ammo supplying. That's literally it.
Any Form of Sentry Nerf:
No. Just no. Sentries are already vulnerable to so many things it isn't even funny. They do not need to be nerfed. Doing so would very likely render them barely useful, or entirely useless. Don't believe me? Here's a list of threats to sentries.
-Sappers
-Rocket Chipping
-Pipe Bomb Chipping
-Edge Cutting (AKA Shooting the Edge of a Sentry while staying out of the line of sight of the center; sentry will not shoot back; countered by Wrangler, but barely).
-Sniper Potshots
-Flare Gun and Crossbow Potshots
-Sticky Bomb Buildup and Detonation
-Sticky Bomb Single Shot Detonation Spam
-Bonk Scout Distraction Tactic
-Melee Range Circling (Admittedly hard to get close enough to do, but still possible.)
*-STOCK UBERCHARGE*
-Hell, Even Quickfix Uber can work on single sentries sometimes.
-Multi-Heavy Push (AKA The Great Wall of Pootis; Multiple miniguns trained on one sentry will shred it far faster than an engy can repair it. Requires careful angling to ensure only one sentry gets triggered at a time, otherwise it becomes unviable. But I figured I'd still throw it on here.)
-Spy Sap and Team Attack Class Rush Combo
-The list goes on.
To put this all very simply... Engineer is SUPPOSED to be a heavily defensive class, with potential for siege tactics if the team can keep him covered long enough to set up somewhere close to the enemy's main line. The entire premise of the Engineer is to prolong the game (or in case of the siege tactics engy, counter strong defense by adding a sort of mobile base to the mix), and act as a completely defensive class (there are viable offense tactics, as mentioned, but those are not the main focus here). Frankly, Dane, I'm surprised you don't get all this. I mean come on. You're Uncle Dane, THE Engy Main. You should know better than anyone that the entire premise of the Engineer is supposed to be either strong defense or siege tactics (there's also the battle engy with his little Mini Sentry, but he's not a common sight these days). And while you may think this makes the game more boring, that's kind of the point. They're meant to maintain a very strong defense that outright denies the enemy the ability to advance directly. It's not meant to be fun for the attacker. And while I can see why the Engy Hive concept is a bit of an issue, I have to say that these would be entirely terrible ways to go about addressing it. And to be frank, it's typically only an issue because most teams lack coordination. Were a team to just spam spies, stock uber medics, and a few combat classes, there's no wall of engies that can stop that. Sappers everywhere all while Ubercharged Soldiers, Heavies, and Demomen are raining death down on the now defenseless engineers. Heck, you wouldn't even need the Ubercharge for the most part if the spies got all the sentries.
Long story short, I think the problem lies more in the players than it does in Engy as a class. He has many, many counters. All it takes is a decently coordinated team to beat them back.
Gladius Erlade, I didn't read what you wrote, but here is a like for writing an essay in a youtube comment section.
Yeah... Bad habit of mine. Eheh.
i agree. he is in the defense category for a reason.
Gladius Erlade The Great Wall of Pootis. Made me laugh way too much.
I feel like I just gotta miss this video. If the first two main points you have are "Remove the ability to interact with friendly buildings" and "Make the engineer a healer on par with the medic" then it's just a no from me.
Right, it was mind boggling to me too. Lets make engi have sentries, shotguns and heal people on par with medic..... Its like he didnt remember how powerful a thing a lvl 3 dispenser is, which other than having uber and being mobile is nearly as critical as the medic is already and I'm an engi main.. Oh yeah and he has a teleporter which brings ppl back from the dead basically if anything engi is near critical in any larger format game mode. You know what else dispensers excel at? Unbiased mass healing, they don't give two turtle fucks about your hats and heals everyone while a somewhat experienced medic is gonna prioritize the fanciest of hat mans. Not saying all medics but the norm for mid of the road casual medics is to aim at hats.
@burtenplays A REALLY good Medic will try and heal everyone up to a good level of overheal. (Technically not to full in 6s to maintain more Uber charge rate.)
And... as for a pocket... it's a combination of score, and the situation. If there's an extremely annoying Pyro gimping your ubers. Uber a Heavy. There's no sentry, amd you have a GODTIER Scout? He will probably clean house. Sentries but their Pyro is dead? Demoman or Direct Hit Soldier.
@@DataDrain02 if you're talking about a situation in the video then I have no idea what you're talking about because it's been 4 years since my comment
AND I didn't read who was in the @ god do I love my situational stupidity, carry on
"Medic should be dethroned from his role as the one and only healer"
Banana dispensers:
Plot twist: Mr.Paladin made this video disguise as uncle dane
lol
Uncle dane is gone
Did he get back stabbed with the eternal reward?
@The gray in the field yeah
He could be anyone of us...
"removing coop engineering"
haha, no
i love to help my fellow engies
That would be a bad idea.
Maybe lower the efficiency at most
Yeah! thats a part of being a "TEAM" in Team Fortress 2 is the coop engineering! The game don't need any more nerf!
I think all metal consumption should go up so instead of 200 per upgrade it should be around 250. This can be exploited though with building then nest. So the building speed and firing speed will go down a little but not too much.
Mandrake exactly!
Removing co-operative engineering is not just an engineer nerf, it's the removal of teamwork which TF2 is mostly based about.
Its called "Team Fortress 2" not "Fortress 2"
There is no co-operative medicing. Two medics healing the same target not only build uber slower, but they don't actually stack the healing. Not true for two engineers whacking a sentry to repair and upgrade it.
NoHomeLike 192.168.8.1 the engineer is a different example
You can’t just using the medic dual healing downside and than use it on engineer
Even though i don't agree with Uncle Dane, i can see how cooperative engineering is kinda op.
On one hand it can be destroyed by a skilled spy, but on the other hand, a engineer can wrangle his sentry and have other heal it at the same time making the sentry invincible.
That's like saying removing the ability for multiple Medics to double their healing on a single target removes their ability to work as a team.
Oh, wait, Medics already can't do that, because it'd be busted. And yet no one's saying that removes the ability for two Medics to work together effectively.
Uncle Dane: let’s remove cooperative engineering all together
Also Uncle Dane: PLEASE TEMPORARILY SWITCH TO ENGI AND UPGRADE THE TELEPORTERS
You know what they say
Can't beat 'em? Join 'em
True
200th like
as long as the system is what it is, work with it
I mean, he can be correct with both. One is hindsight, and one is simply taking advantage of what is available in game. You don't not use something just because it is broken; though if you make seemingly underpowered strategies work with good practice and critical thinking and strategy, that's cool, but it's why I always tend to complain about the broken mechanics of a game, not the players using them. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I should have known....uncledane was a spy main the whole time
He played the long game
“Medic is the only healing class”
Ever heard of a sandvich heavy?
All classes have weapons that can let them heal others or themselves in one way or another, scout has candy and milk, soldier has conch and blackbox, pyro can airblast burning teammates, demo has the zatoichi, heavy has lunch, engineer has dispencer, medic is medic, sniper has camper and spy has kunai
@@josep754 neeerd
he meant hps aka healing per sec
my hoovy nanas r most effective
Or a DISPENSER
12:16 my man just tried to upgrade the cart
Not the first time
Level 2 carts move faster. Level 3s mpve faster and move themselves. Huzzah
I can't think of a way to make the Engineer more like the Medic without making the Engineer the Medic. Like FUNKe once said, "If you try to change specialists into being more versatile, you're diluting exactly what makes these characters unique and interesting. If we make the Pyro more mobile with higher burst damage, he would just be intruding on the type of attack role the Scout was created for." If you make the Engineer heal more, he becomes a more busted version of the Medic, and if you start to remove things he has over the Medic, you start to just make him the Medic.
"The entire game would become choke-point push simulator 2017."
You mean Dustbowl?
"aka Dustbowl"
oh
Hahah
Hahah
Hahah
Hahah
I disagree with what you say about healing. First off, other classes like soldier and scout do have some healing capabilities, and second, why would anyone play medic if you could play another healer (except maybe for ubers, which aren't a guarantee since the medic is usually targeted frequently)? That is medics only upside and so giving it to someone else makes medic almost a useless class. The point of the team fortress classes is that each has a specific role, and I don't think we should encroach on certain classes.
Why would anyone play medic if you could play another healer who has AI controlled bots that can change the tide of an entire game.
I mean, even if a medic didn't heal as much as an engie that uber would still probably be more than worth it since it's an uber. The entire game revolves around ubering into things to push after all. They're incredibly good. Honestly I don't see why we can't have just a mercy vs lucio kind of thing, where one's good at single targets and making them stronger liike with over heal, and one that's good at slower but more area related healing minus overhealing and ubers.
@@isaacargesmith8217 we basically do have that, though
dispensers are constant, aoe healing
“Engie’s role”
*-shows bread roll*
it was great but i would've put a roll on a teleporter
Honestly, if you think the medic shouldn't have it's importance as a healer, then what's gonna be the point of the medic, why even play medic if other classes can heal themselves too? The medic's only purpose really is to keep the team and himself alive as long as possible to avoid the respawn time, if the engineer could do that, then the medic's only purpose will be the ubercharge, which in itself, should be one of the medic's least important abilities.
That is the same situation as in overwatch and why mercy is hated.
She is not special or anything. Other classes can do her same job.
@@milkasikirica9095 A year late, but *exactly this*
Last I remember, you have not only Mercy, but Ana, Lucio, Moira, and Zenyatta, some other heroes who can do exactly what Mercy can do, but better or with more interesting mechanics. And that's why Mercy often is not respected well outside of her Resurrection ability. Even Skymin pointed this out when she talked about the differences between her and the Medic, specifically mentioning that the Medic is the only dedicated healer and that he's the main difference between a fight and a domination, not counting the Engie's dispenser and the Heavy's Sandvich.
I mean engineer has to take a long time to get a level 3 up and its lack of movement makes it undesired for pushes. Meanwhile medic, portable, and has ubercharge there is a lot to consider!
@@thatcooldudeisawesome876 while that is true, a dispenser is an addition to a class that can have some strong offensive potential, while the medic is mostly supportive potential, so the engineer being able to grow a building in less time it takes to respawn for infinite health and ammo would be better than a medic if it healed at a similar or higher rate than the medium, as it heals multiple players
@@groundbird4904 what? A medic is portable, a dispenser is stationary. Medic can overheal, dispenser can't. Medic can uber, as well as shoot croosbow/saw enemy while dispenser can't.
I believe that the engineer is a defensive focused class and shouldn't have his defensive capabilities extensively nerfed.
Totally agree
TheRealDrop I can hold one sentry an entire game using practically any loadout for engi and I have only 500 hours in the game, you were saying
bropower125.... is this in a game against new players? .. are you actually defending an objective? and does your team actually help you?
regardless your statement confuses me...
its kind of like saying...
"i can get 20 headshots with any loadout for sniper and i have only 500 hours in the game.... you were saying?"
or..
"i can effectively make my teammate's tank ungodly amounts of damage with any load out for medic and i have only 500 hours in the game.... you were saying?"
oddly enough.. when you play a class in the role it was designed for you should be rewarded with success.....
can you elaborate... i don't see what you're saying.
That's an overly simplistic mindset. When making a balancing decision, you have to consider what actions players will take and what actions an opponent must take to counter a player's action. If a player can take an action such that no other option is ever better in any reasonable scenario and/or an opponent has no means of countering an action a player takes, then said strategy is overpowered, and must be balanced. Saying that some of Engineer's defense weapons shouldn't be nerfed because he is a defensive class is dogmatic and nonsensical, and demonstrates no understanding of why any of these changes are being presented in the first place.
TheRealDrop yea
ankle slam isn't a very great center mane
Gary The Snail
Hey Gary
4:08 I don't know who the heavy was giving that sandwich to, but he died a hero
Guys i know why he wants to remove co-operative engineering it's because
He is a sp-
*backstab noise*
Uncle dane: nothin' personel kid
Correction, mr Paladin who is disgused as uncle dane
Mr.stonks ah yes, my second favorite tf tuber. my favorite bunny
Dane is a spy
Guess that'll do
_THE ENGINEER UPDATE 2_
Changes:
- Reskinned every class to a varient of the engineer.
- Moved all voice lines to engineer
- Every class can place a mini sentry
- Every class has a dispenser on their back
- Competitive is the only game mode now
- You start with 1 minisentry at a time, but can pay only $9.99 to have more mini sentries at once
For the first time in my life
I am sadden from a c0mment
XD I was thinking the same thing. But I don't think even valve would do that. Sure meet your match was bad but the jungle inferno was ok. Witch Means that the updates are getting better.
We should go back to Robotic Boogaloo Era Ideas and have a community Update again. We need more MvM maps, new Aussies, Botkillers, Strange Robo-Cosmetics and reskins, New weapons that can be found as botkillers! I say we go to Valve, stand in front of the doors, and say:
"Hello, we are a collective of Team Fortress players, would you mind taking a minute or two out of your time to hear about our inquiry into developmental processes for the game? We just wish to ask if we can move forward and have a community themed update, in which, we will release a new Tour, new weapons and Aussie Variants, alongside a set of Robotic Cosmetics and Reskins and a Community Safe which holds interesting new hats, stranges, and unusual effects. Please consider this, as we have no say in the creation of such an update, but we would have say in the production of the update. Thank you for your time."
bleh bleh hello I’d like to buy a hundred mini sentry
@@mikee2057 aged like milk
I dissagree with pretty much every suggested change, but the speedpad may be a good idea to replace the teleporter using the gunslinger
Or when on maps where teleporters are less useful. Like a portion of KoTH maps and pretty much all 5CP maps. Also, when you're pushed to the very final point on any map where teleporters become more or less useless. I think Upward is one of the few maps with a final point where having a teleporter is still useful on the last point as you can use it to help your team more easily get up to the opposite balcony overlooking the pit.
Techhunter Talon atleast use still get those frag kills right?
"The Engineer should never be the best class...but he should be on par with the best class."
One video: Treat other engineer's buildings like your own.
This one: Valve needs to take away cooperative engineering
D A N E M A K E U P Y O U R M I N D
"A person tells you to act one way because of the way reality is, but then thinks things would be better if things were changed. This makes them a hypocrite. I am very smart."
@@The5lacker "a person makes a joke, I take it literally, I am very smart"
@@leonardo9259 "a person makes a joke, i take it literally, i am very smart"
@@JimBimBum Am i getting called an idiot, or-
Actually, that isnt a question.
*im a fucking dumbass.*
@@leonardo9259 oh no they didnt play along with da jook! R/WOOSSHSH?! BASED KEANU CHUNGUS 100 OUTSTANDING MOVE BUT THAT'S ILLEGAL
The thing wrong with engineer are the nerfs he gets on his rescue ranger.
Jokes aside, what if we gave the wrangler a charge? Like some sort of battery.
Once it's drained, the shield turns off. You can still controle the sentry if you want. You can only turn it on again once you deal [X] amount of damage with your sentry.
I think a lot of people wouldn't like the shield to be removed completely. Like you said.
mrcomp that's actually a really good suggestion, u should send it in to the tf team 👍
I quite like this. Perhaps just have it on a timed cool down rather than damage dealt, but the idea is a good one. Other suggestions could be it can absorb 500 damage (just an arbitrary number) before having a 15 second (again, arbitrary) cool down.
mrcomp could the battery be a damage limit or a time one
Or just make the shield weaker. Right now its 66% protection i think so changing it to maybe 33% would make it still usable
Hyebri Maybe 50% Protection- Wait 33%? There's threes in there, VALVE HAS BEEN LYINH TO US.
“No other class has the ability to heal” -Uncle Dane the ENGIE Main shows dispenser being built in every intro that clearly provides teammates with a great supply of Prilosec
All classes have weapons that can let them heal others or themselves in one way or another, scout has candy and milk, soldier has conch and blackbox, pyro can airblast burning teammates, demo has the zatoichi, heavy has lunch, engineer has dispencer, medic is medic, sniper has camper and spy has kunai
@@josep754 and none of those are nearly as consistent as the dispenser
@@deaconthedank7224 medic?
@@megacharizard1356 no medic sucks he can't heal
If they remove the cooperative engineering i quit tf2.
mad cus bad
@@josephg1125 not even related to the comment
@@backflip883 It is. He would quit because hes mad that he wouldnt be able to abuse an OP mechanic
@@josephg1125 youre basing it on perspective, if they remove cooperative engineering, setting up would be slower, its a what if.
@@josephg1125 cooperative engineering is comparable to pocket duos, if they removed cooperative engineering, its comparable removing the ability of medic to heal or uber
Removing cooperative enineering ?
You must've lost your mind !
He has indeed lost his mind and his comments in videos like this and other nerfs if put in game will hurt it pretty bad for TF2 has lasted this long without major changes, or as a compromise “instead of changing a weapons stats just make a different weapon~variant that does not change or affect or remove the original one.”
I don't think the engineer should be on par (healing wise) with the medic because of the engineers versatility. What is better to have a teleport, sentry, and a dispenser ( that would heal the same as a medic) or a healer that can move. While I do want the engineer to have greater heals if it is the same or close enough to the medic the medic would become obsolete. If the engineer receives a portable dispenser it would be worse (unless it had less healing) for the medic. I do hope that support engineer is buffed, but making him on par with medic would make medic obsolete. You would need to reduce damage, range, etc. on the sentry gun to keep the medic from viable. The only advantage that the medic would have are ubers, but the engineer sentry and teleport are better than ubers. What would you make engineer on par with medic without making the medic obsolete?
Robert The Bruce as a medic main, I approve this comment
the engineer needs more guns
And secondaries!
Valve give Hardhat Jones a revolver
More wrenches would be nice
You need to bring more gun, son
Use more gun
"he's too good at defending"
*showing clip of him murdering the enemy team with the widowmaker*
How to fix the Pomson:
Change the way it fires.
M1: Long range shot that doesn't penetrate players and does reasonable damage.
M2: Shotgun-style laser blast that has similar damage to the Stock or Widowmaker.
Just my two cents.
die. jpg And I would like that valve upgraded the short circuit, I mean why do you want a secondary a weapon that only works in *short range* and wastes your metal? The cost of the electric charge is expensive and it isn’t even too strong, well yes, it can scare enemies when playing payload, while you are having the bomb giving you ammo, but it is still too expensive.
I imagine the short circuit as a direct upgrade to the stock, you can shot the same as a pistol, but you have a bigger clip size, since you are using you’re ammo, the electric charge it’s more powerful, maybe as powerful as a rocket, but it’s still a little bit expensive, all with one condition -uses ammo and no critical hits maybe? Well I hope you see my opinion about another weak weapon of the engineer.
I want to see the weapon redesigned to actually look like a shotgun.
"I'm not saying the engineer should be the most powerful class in the game"
"lets give engineer the same healing potential as medic"
you can't have both
Chance Browning I believe you can, for engi to get that healing potential he has to work had for a bit, and must maintain his building aswell as himself.
I'd assume that his idea would be that the sentry would become WAY weaker in exchange for the ability to heal really good.
Dobie Catcher that is literally what a level 3 dispenser is
Wouldn't this exclude overheal though
@@necronwarlord9188 and lacks ubers and lack the ability to be moved from one spot!
"Medic should be dethroned from his role as the one and only healer" Dane, this isn't Overwatch. Gamers:
You can't add a whole new character just to balance another. Blizzard: Hold my Beer!
The dispenser backpack would dispense ammo as well. That would be quite overpowered.
I would like the backpack, no idea is too op if You nerf it enough
@@josep754 this way of thinking is how we got the current Danger shield/dead ringer/crit-a-cola/ambassador/BFB
@@leonardo9259 the crit-a-cola and ambassador arent as good as they were but they are still good
@@eh2587 i agree
Redditor
“Lets dethrone the medic of healing,” sure lets make a class completely useless and unfun to play as in casual.
Enough has been said on cooperative engineering and as a medic main I will focus on the problems with an engineer that can heal as effectively as the medic.
Having the engineer healing as effectively or even close to as much as a medic would just be a medic with greater survive-ability, the ability to place buildings, with the one downside being lack of uber. In casual uber is effective to be sure but it isn’t nearly as amazing as every says it is. Since uber happens so infrequently most players don’t know how to use it effectively, or are too sacred that they will waste it and so don’t bother trying to use it. Even when someone does eventually pop at most they will kill two to three players, out of a team of 12 this isn’t that big a deal, in competitive it is a completely different story but nobody plays competitive. The most that will happen in an uber push is maybe a cap.
So when another player can provide the same amount of heals, while having greater survive-ability at the cost of something that will get underutilized, there would be no reason to play medic. It would also be every boring to play medic as well, the reason you can see four soldiers, or spies, or pyros, or literally any other class other than medic is because the more medics there are the less enjoyable the experience becomes. With more medics uber building takes much longer, and everyone typically is over-healed by the time you get to them, it is designed this way so that at most there will only ever be two medics, because while fighting a team of any stacked class sucks having an enemy team with four medics is a nightmare.
Furthermore it would be way to strong for the engineer, realistically this would heal everyone in a radius constantly, give ammo, heal the engineer too, allow him to have a shotgun in hand as he is healing, and since it’s on his back would probably prevent back-stabs. In order to balance this all other buildings would have to be removed, and all that would do is remove the one unique aspect of the engineer and create a very generic healer class that makes another pointless.
What instead the should do is have cooperative engineering but every action geared towards someone else’s buildings takes three times as long, sappers take 6 hits instead of two and you heal and upgrade other sentries with much more metal than you otherwise would have had to. Other thing they could do is have the dispenser be able to instantly build and take less metal to upgrade, and have a system where the sentry can be placed down instantly, but the health has to build up, or have so that a medic can uber a building. Also they should make the wrangler more like a vaccinator.
Ikr, might as well give medic an ammo dispensing medigun to compete engie lol
Great points on why making engineer heal as good as medic is a bad idea, however I have to disagree on the changes you propose.
Having to hit 6 times to remove a sapper would be just annoying and stupid; the changes mentioned for the dispenser would be just too overpowered; the change you proposed to the wrangler is interesting, but it would still be overpowered, so it should probably just lose the shield all together, and maybe implement it in another weapon.
@@galegopaulista4564 I have a better idea:
-every engi who is not the owner of the building the sapper is on has to hit the sapper 3-4 times before removing it (other classes 4-5 hits)
-wrangler doesnt have a shield, but adds +50 HP to the sentry while its being wrangled.
-wrangled sentries will recive 1.5X more damage from sappers, and will take 3 hits to be un-sapped.
-Wrangled sentries deal 5% less damage while wrangled, and have a slower fire rate.
Do my ideas seem good, Sir?
Playing medic is really boring, but unfortunately it has to be done if no one else is doing it and you want to win. So having an alternative to medic for healing would make it more interesting and less boring. As long as it doesn't give it ubercharge then medic will never be dethroned of his role.
@@prostagma3132 Medic is a lot of fun for some people(myself included). Just because you don't enjoy playing medic doesn't suddenly justify adding an outright replacement.
Also, please actually read the entire comment before responding. They went into detail why uber isn't that important in casual.
I only have a couple things to say about what you're video --
You're forgetting one thing, engineer is *SUPPOSED* to be an area denial class. He and medic have two kinds of support. Medic is a healing support, supposed to seal the cracks of the team, and keep the pressure on the enemy. However, the engineer, is a support when it comes to area denial, similar to the demoman's sticky bombs. Engineer as a class is supposed to deny people in a set area to either make a road-block for the enemy team, like you said in the video, to block off a set area for an advantage for a team. These are the core mechanics of the engineer, if you were to buff the dispenser, you'd be blurring the lines between the medic and engineer. Specialists and generalists -- You'd make the engineer just a bit more of a generalist, and less of an area denial specialist. The medic's job is SPECIFICALLY to heal, making him a specialist, but if you give him a high dps weapon, and the ability to go on both offense and defense, you blur that line.
Probably non-constructive -criticism- Bullcrap, you're friend, -some stupid commenter
Alyster Schmidt the medic isnt a specialist. Medic is the strongest class because it can be played in every situation.
@@seta_samuli2759 Also because of reliable and effective healing.
@@connorthompson66 1 year old comment, I guess notifications do work. Agree with you.
@@seta_samuli2759
Actually, Medic is... weird in that regard. He's a specialist in role but a generalist in situation. Medic... heals, and not much else. He can kind of try playing sniper with the Crossbow but even then he's still primarily a healer. But you ALWAYS need a healer.
Can anyone tell me why he thinks having class caps would upset everyone, but thinks removing cooperative engineering would be ok?
Youre right not ok with this
Cause uncle Dane is legit stupid.
Anthony Smith cuz then u couldnt have 6 spy's on one team
Because casual class caps is an awful idea.
@@CommunistHam And why would you think that?
Heals are an incredibly powerful thing in a deathmatch shooter, they DESERVE to be a necessity for any team. The fact that engineer can heal AT ALL is already intruding on the entire class role that is the Medic. If it were up to me i’d keep Engineer in his place and keep Medic as the game’s primary healing class, not only by a small margin but by as large a margin as possible to heavily enforce his role as the game’s healer. It should always be “If you want heals, go medic”.
Heals are powerful, but that doesn't mean a shooter has to have a healing class. Look at og multiplayer fps games such as quake 2/3, just health packs are available. Here's a questuon for you- are medics even needed if engineer sentries didn't exist? Sometimes I think medics ruin the game..insanely powerful ubers, medic plus heavy, medic plus phlog pyro. Engineers might get even more worth then due to their dispensers
Medic mains be like: WTF Dane I thought we were friends
you know what removing cooperative engineering will do, it will cause engies to camp like crazy, if i want to place a dispenser near my team i need to remove my only source of constant metal, then while I'm gone my stuff will be super vunerable, so it just won't be worth it to leave
I know I’m late, but
*rescue ranger*
@@jimbo491 *no metal*
ItzMeRoky130 yeah, you use the rescue ranger to heal your sentry while you’re near your dispenser. Or just, put your buildings closer
@@jimbo491 the problem comes when you run out of bolts before having to reload and the sentry only needs someone to look at it funny to die, that's why the rescue ranger is unreliable if used as the only healing source, you have to use it with the wrench too
ItzMeRoky130 yeah, so the solution is to put your buildings in way that you can have a constant metal source while also being able to repair your sentry reliably. Most of my buildings are relatively close to each other, so I can monitor and repair them.
In the words of funke,
“If you gave the pyro a higher movement speed and higher burst damage, it would be intruding on what the scout would do.”
Focusing on healing for the engineer would just intrude on the medic.
I personally disagree with you and funke. Look what happened in the pyro update, they increased his mobility and damage. Is he a scout? Is he as powerful as a scout? No. Pyro turned into a flank class and a fairly good up front combat class (in pubs that is).
Now engie would be like this example, say he gets the dispenser backpack that Uncle mentioned previously, engineer would become and AOE healer with ability to give ammunition with minor combat ability with some area denial (and also teleports). Now he wouldn't have the direct healing power of a medic and no uber, but ammo and other support buildings could potentially outweigh those upsides. Anyhow, those are just my thoughts, and let's be real here, none of this will happen any time soon with valves pace. (edit: just made some minor grammar fixes, hope I made my point fairly clear and you'll consider my opinion.)
The Ghatroth
What is pyro’s role in the team exactly?
But no one else heals reliably
Pyro's role is to spycheck and ambush the enemy in tight hallways. He is an ambush class.
Two words: Flare Punching.
Scout is a hit and run; heavy Burst damage Striker. His role is to ambush weak opponents in a situation that is unsuitable for them and dish out high damage fast. Clean up duty, basically.
Pyro is more of a cleave on the other hand; he's meant to operate by flanking the line, then cutting in like a knife through butter; with supporting fire; he rushes through; cleaning out the nest from behind amidst the chaos.
Both of them are shut down by a Sentry gun; but Scout is meant to ambush those who are vulnerable. Pyro is meant to cut off the enemies retreat so they have to go through him.
Classes that can heal: scout, heavy, medic, and dispenser.
Hey dont forget Soldier with the Conch and Pyro can also heal himself by extinguishing teammates
@@theguywithadifferentopinio9060 Soldier cant heal others, sadly
All classes have weapons that can let them heal others or themselves in one way or another, scout has candy and milk, soldier has conch and blackbox, pyro can airblast burning teammates, demo has the zatoichi, heavy has lunch, engineer has dispencer, medic is medic, sniper has camper and spy has kunai
@@remu6841 he can sorta heal by using rage while equipping the concheror
@@cfdeers Wait he can? I thought it only gave a speed boost
"No classes can heal but medic"
Sandvich, banana, chocolate: *Are we a joke to you?*
Aflahul Falihin
Dispenser : Am I a joke to YOU?
@@vincemarenger7122 yes :v
Mad Milk
All classes have weapons that can let them heal others or themselves in one way or another, scout has candy and milk, soldier has conch and blackbox, pyro can airblast burning teammates, demo has the zatoichi, heavy has lunch, engineer has dispencer, medic is medic, sniper has camper and spy has kunai
@@josep754 I think he means the ability to heal teammates, so really only the medic, lunch, dispenser, conch, and madmilk apply.
Sorry Dane, you have a lot of great views on the meta and how to play effectively as engineer, but you're no game designer. I can't agree with more than a handful of your suggestions.
Reduce the effectiveness of healing/ upgrading on allied buildings? Sure. Remove the mechanic entirely? Noooooooooooo.
Sentries can already be effectively countered by soldiers, demos, medics, spies, and snipers. It won’t take a good team "everything they have" to destroy one sentry.
There is no reason to make the engineer a healer "almost on par with the medic" when we already have the medic.
And those are only points from the first third of the video. I could go on.
+Nameless Dude If the problem is that "the medic is boring" then surely the solution is to "make the medic less boring"? Not "completely gut the engineer's defensive capabilities and remove a gameplay style that's been in the game for 10 years"?
Here's the thing: I LIKE some of Dane's suggestions. A dispenser backpack would be a cool addition to the game. But that's what it should be: an ADDITION. It should be an unlockable, replacing the shotgun or the wrench. We don't have any weapons that replace the PDA, either. This would be a cool new, support-centered way to play engineer.
My problem with this video is that Dane is trying to pitch it as a BALANCE PATCH. But what he's doing, instead of fixing what's broken, is completely going against the original design philosophy for the class. The engineer is meant to stay behind the front lines and defend, as well as support the team in ways besides just healing them (teleporters support mobility, disepensers give ammo, wrench supports other engi buildings, etc).
How would it be fair for the engineer to heal almost as fast as the medic, while also being able to dispense ammo, and build teleporters and sentries?
These are some cool ideas. But it is NOT a balance patch.
+Nameless Dude Seeing as we posted similar sentiments at almost the exact same time, I agree. xD
+Nameless Dude Apparently 100% rofl
Agreed, removing the whole engi heal other engi building thing was fucking crazy and stupid. Rethink that a little dane.
I thought you said in engineering 101:
*work together and upgrade someone's teleporter, and heal their sentry*
...yeah, cause that's part of the game, and it will help you and your team. it's the best way to play.
whether it _should_ be the best way to play is another discussion entirely.
is like. you use a heavy to give other heavy more health. is kinda unbalanced
@@jackoxy9860 THE SANDVICH UNION SHALL OVERTHROW THE MEDIC BOURGEOISIE
"A person tells you to act one way because of the way reality is, but then thinks things would be better if things were changed. This makes them a hypocrite. I am very smart."
@@The5lacker I am very dumb. I tell you "take car on side roads. Is faster than highway with traffic." I think things would be better if highway was changed and not so much traffic. I am hipocrite?
tldr:
Engineer should be removed from game.
tf2: each class has strengths and weaknesses
uncle dane: *unacceptable*
I agree with all but 2 of your points
#1 Cooperative engineering isn't the problem, the only reason engineer stacking ever works is because of poor map design or poor team composition. You even said so yourself in your do's and don'ts of cooperative engineering that engineer needs proper team composition to work effectively. The only reason 6 sentries on a point is ever effective is because there aren't enough people on the enemy team willing to switch to a more effective team comp to counter it. most team comps I see failing to push against multiple engineers usually lack power classes and medics and instead consist of sentry fodder. That being said, most of the maps that allow engineer stacking to work are usually older, poorly designed maps maps like dustbowl
#2 Giving engineer a dispenser backpack isn't necessary. The problem with the dispenser is simply it's lack of range. if you place your dispenser next to the front lines you are often placing your primary backup of metal in a place where it can be easily destroyed if the enemy team makes a push. If we simply increase the dispensers range, the engineer can put his dispenser in a place that both benefits his team and keeps it out of harms way (aka isn't instantly destroyed the second the frontline is overrun)
...I don't think you know how long the medigun beam is.
The dispencer could be healing halfway to mid in some 3-point maps.
Dispenser ranges that big would entirely invalidate Pyro since his DPS is shit and afterburn would be basically negligible within the “healing zone”. The only good think to come out of this for pyro is that friendly pyros would have literally infinite ammo in a huge area of the map, but the same goes for every class in the game, making the spam unreal.
I don't agree with your idea that defending classes shouldn't be stronger at defending than attacking classes are at attacking.
While I understand where you're coming from, that is a VERY 5cp-centric opinion. If you look at competitive Payload or Attack/Defend, for example, the attacking team ALMOST ALWAYS wins even though the defending team has such strong options for defending. This is because in those game modes, the attacking team gets to make several pushes, but only ONE of them has to be successful for the attacking team to gain ground. This is why the defending classes are inherently stronger than attacking classes while defending, and balancing the entirety of TF2 over ONE game mode is a flawed perspective.
hes saying to nerf engie because it can make HL a faster paced game, a fucking sentury gun tanks like 6 of my fucking stickys with the wrngler ,then he jsut rescue rangers it out, dude its not fair, and ofc the offenc team is gonna cap becuase they have faster respawns and the game mode was made so the offence should be capping.
I don't have a problem with Engineer getting nerfs (as long as he gets reasonable buffs to compensate) but the Engineer should still be better at defending than, say, a lone Soldier or Scout is at attacking.
And it's very obvious he wasn't talking about HL. Highlander payload and A/D doesn't have "back and forth", that's a 5cp and KoTH thing. And Engineer isn't the only defensive class, last I checked.
Competitve highlander is not the main competitive gamemode of tf2 and therefore no one gives a shit about it
Haze Stratos 5cp should not be a mode in competitive at all. It is made to be played by more than 6 people on each team and competitive focus on that game type is, frankly, idiotic. And balancing towards 5cp comp is borderline retarded. That game mode should barely be in the game, let alone in comp.
"It is made to be played by more than 6 people on each team"
cite your sources on that one. or is that just a conclusion you came up with based on nothing?
"balancing towards 5cp comp is borderline retarded"
so what is considered the main competitive gamemode (and has objectively the best players in the game playing competitively atm) shouldn't be used as a measurement for balance? Should pubs, where 90% of the players are ridiculously stupid and have no clue about the mechanics of TF2, be used instead? Are these people aware of things players who are better than them aren't?
If you'd say "The majority of players don't play competitive 5cp so it should balance towards what the majority of players play" I'd understand. But then that would mean you'd want TF2 to be balanced around 12v12 ctf because 2fort and Turbine are the 2 most popular maps on Valve servers. And both that gamemode and those maps are terribly designed. Crits on cap, engineer stacking, scout stacking, medic stacking, horribly designed chokepoints and sightlines, etc.
source: imgur.com/a/H3FkP
Since you also brought up the amount of players meant for 5cp:
5cp is the only gamemode that can be played with 6 players or less. Generally the maps are designed around transitions with 1 choke and 2 flanks which allows for a clear distribution of players who fight for positioning.
PL is not made for this. You always want 3x on the cart which would leave you with a 4v6 from an attacker's perspective at any time. This is flawed. If I have to explain to you why playing 4v6 is flawed then I'm clearly wasting my time here.
CTF is not made for 6v6. It's been tested in ETF2L. Nobody enjoyed it, it was just deathmatch and it was very unbalanced. The very early days of TF2 was competitive 2fort. It was really bad.
AD can be played 6v6 but aside from maybe Gorge and Gravelpit (which was played competitively for quite a while btw) all those maps are horribly designed. And even the 6v6 issues arise there with the defending team not being able to defend A on gravelpit and giving it up in 6v6 which makes it become a 2cp map.
Your logic seems to be flawed and not based on actual arguments (or at least you did not provide any of value). Feel free to prove me otherwise with a source for 5cp not being made for 6v6 and counterarguments for the other arguments I made. Before you start calling anything retarded at least think about why you think it is and provide some context.
I think the rescue ranger sould be like a crossbow for medic: the further the bolt travels more it will heal
Eh, that would probably encourage sitting 3 miles away from your sentry and spamming rescue ranger bolts, but interesting idea.
@@lasagnalover1185 This strategy would be completely neutered by spies' sappers.
@@tgoas3503 fair enough
It should be the closer you are the more healing so either heal 1 hp from 30 miles or turtle with the rescue ranger
@@kek2433 As Dane said, if you're that close, then you may aswell just use the wrench.
Uncle Dane: "The way the class is designed is not to be a constant force to be reckoned with."
Engineer: "And you best hope... not pointed at you..."
You sure, Dane?
You could have finished the whole quote.
“Like this, tripod heavy caliber little number. Designed by me, built by me, and you best hope ... not pointed at you”
"remove cooperative engineering"
rip uncle dane 2015-2017
forgot how to have fun
Removed cooperative engineering, too confusing for new players.
Wait... *THAT UNCLE DANE IS A SPY!*
I agree that removing it would be overall good for game balance, *BUT* TF2 is a silly game and it needs to stay as an essential element of meme strategies and the like.
When I heard this I though “did Uncle Dane just remove the team from team fortress 2?”
Cooperative engineering isn't fun to play against, when half a team is playing cooperative engineer on last there's only one class having fun, eight are bored to death that the enemy dies as quickly as they're born and nine are frustrated that they've gotten all this way just to lose to an impenetrable wall of metal and texan accents.
Disclaimer: This might come off as if I am roasting this video, but that is absolutely not the case. If I don't discuss something, it means I agree with it, and I agree with almost everything in this video.
Another disclaimer: I am a competitive TF2 player, so my perspective may be a little different than a lot of other people commenting. While I believe that most concepts easily carry from pubs to competitive TF2 since it is the same game, there are certain things that are very different (notably class limits).
Alright, let's get started.
2:41: Engineers cannot interact with other engineers' buildings. While this appears overpowered when you play against it, I actually think that it is only overpowered because of the weapons they use (i.e. the Wrangler and the Rescue Ranger). As you say at 2:22, the strength in numbers only exists when the engineers spread out, and since they have both the Wrangler, but more importantly for this case the Rescue Ranger, it is impossible to push, since all the engineers can be firing their bolts at the necessary sentry at the time. I think that cooperative engineering is an amazing aspect of pub TF2, and that if the Wrangler and Rescue Ranger are correctly balanced, it will not be overpowered.
Now, onto the actual Wrangler and Rescue Ranger themselves. While they are both overpowered, I don't think it's fair to put them in the same boat; the Wrangler is far more overpowered than the Rescue Ranger. For those who are opposed to removing the shield, let me try taking a different approach. The reason Valve added the shield to the Wrangler was because they felt that when someone was trying to manually control their sentry, it became too vulnerable. The key point here is that the Wrangler's purpose is for manual control. In the current meta, an engineer who runs the Wrangler is, for all intensive purposes, running it only for the shield, because it is that broken. As a competitive demoman, I can assure you that pushing into a shielded sentry is a Herculean task. I think that Uncle Dane's change is actually perfectly suitable, and fits what Valve was intending all along.
The Rescue Ranger is a bit more of a delicate issue. It is currently in a spot where, as you mentioned, is the only viable primary for the engineer running level 3 sentries, yet is just slightly overpowered. To me, from a fun perspective, the Rescue Ranger is vital. Until very recently, I was of the opinion that we only needed to remove the Wrangler's shield, and the engineer would be balanced; however, the TF2 6v6 whitelist, for a brief period of time, allowed the Rescue Ranger (and obviously not the Wrangler), and shortly after, it was banned again. To contextualize, in 6v6, where 5CP is the main game mode, the engineer's role is to put a sentry down on last, usually when the other team has a significant uber advantage (watch ArraySeven's video if you are unaware of this concept), so that the enemy is forced to shoot at it and waste their ammo and uber time destroying the sentry. Then, once it's destroyed, the engineer quickly goes back to scout or sometimes heavy and continues to defend last. The reason the Rescue Ranger was overpowered was that the engineer could repair his sentry without any threat to his life, meaning it took way too long for the enemy team to destroy the sentry, and pushing became nearly impossible because the engineer had the luxury of switching off to another class with no penalty. Throughout the video, Uncle Dane stresses that the engineer's defensive capabilities should be nerfed in an exchange for a buff in support capabilities, and that makes perfect sense to me, but I believe that if the defensive capabilities are still too strong after the Wrangler is nerfed, then the sentry should be the next thing on the "nerfing block" rather than the Rescue Ranger. Perhaps the sentry could have less health, so two spam rockets could take down a level 2 sentry and two pipes could take down a level 3 sentry. I am no expert in balancing, but I think this is the approach that should be taken. As of now, we need to actually try playing the game before we go around balancing every single weapon, and the Wrangler is the most obvious weapon that needs to be fixed. I think that we should change the Wrangler, then try the game, and then balance accordingly.
Finally, in regards to the increase in supportive capabilities, there was one point you made that I'm not sure I agree with. I do not mean this euphemistically, I literally am not sure if I agree with it or not. At 4:32, you say that the meta is stale because the medic is by far the best class in the game. I think that the medic should always maintain this status for two reasons: the first is that I have always loved how TF2 really revolves around the medic, because it makes the game high-stakes and allows for the tide of the game to easily switch, and that is very exciting. The other reason medic should be so good that it becomes a must-have class is because generally, medic is thought of to be a "boring" class, and the best way to make a "boring" class fun is to make him better. I'm digressing a little from the engineer to the medic, but I do think it's relevant because ultimately, the medic's supreme power lies not in his healing abilities, but his ubercharge. This is why I was not sure if I agreed with your idea of making the engineer heal on par with the medic, because what I think would be best is if the engineer and medic were almost equal in support capability, but the engineer were to provide teleporters and sentries, whereas the medic were to provide ubercharge, which would keep the medic as an essential class. I think your method of balancing should work, but the main reason I took the time to bring this up was so that you (Uncle Dane) could have the opportunity to look at it from a different point of view, because I am awful at balancing and you seem to be pretty good at it.
For anyone who actually read this, thank you so much for taking the time, and if you would like to discuss it further you can reply, or even better, add me on steam at steamcommunity.com/id/tangentisreal. Have a nice day!
P.S. Dane don't hate me because of the Uncle Dane Sucks video I made; I only rip on people I like!
an idea i found in the comments of the video was to make the wranglers shield only activate when the sentry is firing, i think this might be a better idea than totally removing it since it would fix the problem with the wrangler but wouldnt destroy one of its best features
+kid1450 Balancing is one issue, but this is what ultimately needs to be accomplished: an engineer should not be using the wrangler to protect their sentry, but to have control of it. This is the way the weapon was meant to be used. If it still needs a small shield to stay viable, then perhaps that's fine, but people cannot be using the wrangler just because they need a shield.
Learn to read instead of relying on a tl;dr
This will still have the cool down before activating auto fire again after the wrangler is put away, right?
Lucridious I think that sounds fair, but as I said I have no expertise in game balancing, I just know from playing the game what's over and underpowered. All I wanted to get across was the actual problem with the wrangler and the urgency with which it needs to be fixed in hopes that someone else can come up with the actual solution. It is wonderful that everyone is throwing their ideas out there, but I am really not the person you should be asking with regards to fairness in weapon balancing.
My proposal for the Rescue Ranger is instead of healing fall off, we tip that thing backwards and make healing ramp up, as it stands 99% of the time it's a stupid idea to actually use your wrench for healing if you're using the rescue ranger since you take more risks and spend more metal for less healing, so healing ramp up would force the engies to actually use the wrench when next to their sentry and swapping to the ranger when they're far away, which is the point of both weapons, since as it stands the wrench is basically negated into a sapper remover when paired with the rescue ranger.
Yeah, no. Casual doesn't need limits this harsh. I've seen engi-stacks get destroyed in casual before so it's not a guaranteed win
5:40....The medic should be de-throned ........ luckily Valve never listens to you Guys!
your timecode is broken
5:37 is correct
tl:dr
Engineer is supposed to be a supportive class. So they should only be able to do supportive roles. No offensive or defensive engineers.
I don't know, I like all 3 engineers. This is like saying demoknight should be banned or -battle medics should not be a thing-
Hammer. Bros. #UCY battle medics shouldn't be a thing. When I see a Australian blutsauger and a overextending medic, I just laugh
Well battle medics shouldn't be a thing. °L°
I feel like a good middleground between removing Co-operative Engineering, and the deathball of 6 sentries on last point, would be that Engineers can't pick metal out of friendly dispensers.
This would reduce the overall amount of metal in the pockets of the Engies, and make it possible - but a lot harder - to crowdsource a 6-sentry deathball.
never
The last point is near spawn.
Engineers can get metal from their own dispensers as well and will just build those.
Nothing would change.
this is the perfect compromise, it makes it so that cooperative engineering isn't overpowered, but still useful cause other engineers can still repair your buildings with their own metal. it would create an interesting decision-making event where engineers have to decide if they want to use their metal to save someone else's sentry gun, reinforcing defense and protecting better against a push, or save their metal so they can upgrade one of their buildings.
As an engie main I feel like the respawn times feel extra stressful because you know in those thirteen seconds your buildings might be annihilated and you can't do anything about it.
i feel the same as a pyro, in those 13 seconds i might be able to defend some teammates or push the enemies off of the objective
I feel the same as a TF2 player, in those 13 second I might be able to play the game
Uncle Dane, you've got, as they say on the internet, "Teh Awesomeness," but I think you may have picked up some form of Stockholm Syndrome. Last time I checked, a couple good Spies and an ubered Soldier/Demo can pretty much mow down any nest. And if takes more than one push to achieve this, I'm ok with that. Setting it up so that engineers can't help each other would pretty much kill the class and turn all the former Engies into Pyro mains. Spies would be out of work, and would probably play Heavy just to kill the Pyros. That might be better game balance, but it's not a world I'd like to live in. Make sure you get that Stockholm thing checked out.
Firstly, if the engies are at least decent they're going to spread them out, making it that much more difficult to destroy them in a single push. The thing you're talking about with a single ubered explosives class and a few spies requires teamwork which is mostly inexistent when solo queueing. Making it so that only you can save your buildings will, well, give them less survivability in the case of multiple engies setting up in the vicinity of each other.
I have to admit that usually your videos are awesome Dane, but for once I have to downvote one. If these were implemented my favorite class Engineer would be ruined and I for sure would never play TF2 again. The Engie is already nerfed enough and repeatedly over the years while the AOE classes have gotten buffs and weapons over and over again. Engie should be the top defence class because that is what he was created for, destroying his purpose is going to change how the entire game is played and make his class completely irrelevant.
this
Zazuban I agree
engis role is to defend, and he will have a very hard time doing it with the nerfs. plus he's my 2nd main, behind pyro
While I see your point, I'm inclined to disagree. A good class is well rounded, with unlocks to change the class's role. A much better idea would be to rework a bad weapon and make it work better for a specific playstyle. Alternatively, a new PDA could change the buildings to be more attack/defense oriented. As it stands, the engineer is viable for all game modes,and roles, and, along with every other class, he should be.
Blind Guy McSqueezy but the game also needs to give you the choise between those playstyles like having a lv4 centry at the cost of having a mini/no dispenser. When we simply take those options from the player and say "that's the new engineer now, have fun" it wouldn't make it better but worse. That's why nerfing or buffing shouldn't be the think discussed right now but rather new utility options who show up alternative gamestyles so you can please both offensive and supportive engineers.
(Uncle)*suggests removing co-operation*
(Me) thats a terrible idea
"No other class can heal" not all can heal others, soldier, scout, engineer, medic, heavy but, all can heal, conch, demos swords, dispenser, medics health regen, mad milk, cozy camper, Kenai, rare power jack kill, and sandvich and lunchbox items
Cooperative engineering is the reason I play TF2. Those moments when the last defending sentry is about to fall and a fellow engi manages to save it is the best thing ever!
if that happens.. i always see my sentry getting sapped and the other engineer doesnt care at all
The removal of cooperative engineering is literally stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life.
Carl the number nine
l0l ro4zt3d!!!1!!!!!1 💯 💯
In the words of uncle Dane stop worshipping your fav youtuber
Giant Dad more like Giant BAD amiritemyguys
@@niydfass1060 "ro4zt3d!!!1!!!!!1" Is that your internet password ?
@@liveshroomer1417 Oh yea, like all the competitive scout mechanics in the game... oh wait.
Not letting engies help eachother with metal would just result in engies hogging their own dispensers, leaving none on the front for the team.
crituqe. small thing. making engie able to heal along with medic destroys the point of medic just saying that medic is designed around how he is the only reliable source of health. and making him on par with the medic simply makes medic's points of a class built ENTIRELY around healing but engie is both a healer and a sentry builder with this change
the thing that's wrong with engi is that his hat is backwards
Kobolite Owo
Kobolite that's a popular habit of all constriction workers just for fun
Kobolite what's wrong with engi he's not torbjorn
Nope, it's intended to deflect neckstabs.
wearing hardhat is like wearing a cap backwards, so backwards hardhat = upright cap.
Co-op Engineering shouldn't be removed... The only reason why this is as you say "OP" is due to the lack of power classes in the enemy team. With less power and more engie on defense.... You end up with more and more counter, ending with a crumbled defense and a win for the offensive team. These nerds should never happen, and good thing valve knows that they shouldn't.
next time you run into 6 engineers here's a list of thigns you can do
have 3 people go uber medic and 3 people go demoman with the stickybomb launcher and lock-n-load
Have 6 people go spy
Have 2 people go spy and 4 people go direct hit soldier
There are TONS of counters, the only reason you can't get past it is because the rest of your team in casual are unwilling to adapt or are just new to the game.
Unfortunately this is pub where communication is practically non-existent.
The True Lord Of Thine Cheese There are plenty of ways to counter 6 Engineers. Über is a powerful tool for taking out basically anything. Combine that with a Direct Hit soldier or a Loch n’ Load demo and you can take down a good chunk of the enemy sentries relatively quickly. Combine this with spies and pyros (to reflect rockets and deal yet more damage to the sentries) and you have a golden team comp for taking down large sentry walls
@@Nightflyermike It's still broken.
The engines just have to whack their sentries. The enemy team has to change their entire team composition, communicate and work together.
i have actually lived with a 5-engie pub that was shut down by 3-ubercharged medics. I saw horror as a engie main.
When you lose against a ton of engineers:
I dont like the whole class limit thing, I really like playing along side 10 engis on 2 fort
"otherwise tf2 would become choke-point push simulator 2017"
*sees corner*
accurate
>short circuit in Above Average and not Underpowered
what
TF2's networking is so poor that it's borderline unusable
How the fuck
I've had countless fights with soldiers and demos who couldn't do shit against me because I had 200 metal and could click M2 over and over.
Of course, more skilled players would try to counter this, like soldiers who pull out the shotty, but you can still easily fight then with your shotgun after they switch (relatively speaking)
I wouldn't call it above average, but it's definitely not useless
I think the Wrangler's shield shouldn't be outright removed but should absorb less damage. Maybe it could also have a stat similar to the Fists of Steel causing it to be more vulnerable to melee damage while The shield is in effect.
thought: the wrangler shield (although not as strong) is because if you're a human you can't see everything and react super quick like a sentry so you could have someone inflict damage without being caught by the sentry and therefore would be easy to destroy. but i guess that would be the balance downside
Listen Dane, I know you're just trying to get the Engineer more love and make him more viable, but making him able to heal as well as the medic? That seems rather dumb, all Medic would be good for at that point is Uber, and then it becomes "Do we need Uber or a level 3 sentry?" It's pretty obvious that, if the Engineer could heal at the same rate as Medic, no one would end up picking Med because teleporters and sentry guns can be far more useful than an Ubercharge, since any coordinated team can just push in together or cause distractions to take down barricades that would usually take Uber
squidinator Maybe not at the same rate, but more people at a time at lower rate. please dont crucify me but Im going to compare this to overwatch. imagine if the medic is a mix of ana and mercy (crossbow) and engineer more of a lucio.
Uhp they got backstabbed too.
Remember to spycheck your comments!
43543FGDF he already kinda is with his dispencer. if, like dane suggiests, a dispencer backpack would be added to the game it would really bring some variety and would be pretty cool imo. it could be like an amputator taunt healing with maybe a shorter radius. and saying that two classes cant have the same role is not really accurate; the heavy and the scout are both good at pushing the cart, just in different situations.
The medic will always be the best at healing but making the engineer able to heal on the go would really boost the usability of the engineer in the competitive scene and overall. Where the engineer stands now is not a good place. he is mostly a stalling class and mostly viable in pl and attack/defend maps.
+I dont think that a single class (medic) should be a god amongst mercenaries. I agree that he should be a king, but not an uncontested god.
Haukur Gylfi Gíslason you must be taking the piss. Have you ever play competitive TF2. or
do you know why double Medic isn't allowed
In comp, uber would still be far more effective, as it is much more versatile than a sentry, which is pretty much entirely used for holding last
removing cooperative engineering would take the team out of team fortress 2
there really wasn't a "team" in team fortress 2 except for co-op engie and mvm so why destroy a rare sight dane?
Thats like saying not letting medics help other medics build uber removes the team out of tf2
I have a good idea for something like your dispenser back pack, make something like the mini sentry but a mini dispenser, it’s just a faster placed and not upgradable lvl 1 dispenser with less health that costs the same amount as a tele, it would make a much more effective push style because it would be something you can throw up in the middle of battle, it pops up fast heals your team a little if not all the way and it would break stale mates instead of creating them
For the short circuit;
Primary fire shouldn't use ammo, but should be clip based. Alt fire should have a clip of maybe three, reload one at a time, and have maybe a 1-2 second interval between shots (like cow Mangler or pomson clip)
Edit: I mean the primary should reload all at once and also maybe have a damage nerd if it doesn't cost metal.
I think engineer needs more items like the gunslinger to move him away from the turtling style.
Agreed.
He said gunslinger like items, which means something that is low health and deployed quickly.
Gamer_X but how about a mini dispencer can be placed multiple times. You could have 2 or 3 mini dispencers instead of 1 lv3 dispencer
It doesn't exactly have to be a mini building, like Dane said it could be something like a dispenser backpack that could allow the engineer to be a more offensive class as now engie can heal at the front line and give ammo as well (but definitely not at the heal rate or effectiveness of the medic or have the ability to push effectively)
yeah
Yeah, no, sorry Dane but I'm gonna have to disagree with your ideas with the point that the Engineer has already been nerfed enough and can be easily be countered by multiple other classes such as the Demoman, Soldier, Heavy and Medic with Uber. Also, removing cooperative engineering? Are you nuts? If I want to push my teleporter further into enemy lines, I don't want to have to worry about my other buildings being destroyed back in my area because the other engineer wasn't able to keep them stable.
Wow, its almost as if this game is built on risk vs reward.
If you want to push your teleporter further into enemy lines, that's your own choice, and in a lot of situations; it's not a good one either. The Teleporter is meant to be passive/aggressive, as in: It's in a spot that's close to the fight, but not so close that your team is in the line of fire/an enemy can easily destroy it.
Not to mention; the removal of cooperative engineering is a good idea. Not everyone enjoys the situations on Dustbowl, 2fort or any Payload map where the losing team pulls out 7 Engineers and starts turtling, resulting in the game grinding to a halt until someone bites the bullet, goes Medic and ubers a Demo to demolish the whole nest. That's just not fun; TF2 is made fun by the fact that there are several different ways to go about how you play the game. If there's 7 Engineers, you practically need an Uber/Demo; because a single Direct Hit Soldier, Loch n Load Demo or Spy is never going to be able to break through that.
Christian Merano noob means new player to the game and I don't think we are new here partner
Christian Merano noob means new player to the game and I don't think we are new here partner
Eviction Notice i agree
"Maybe add a dispenser backpack" dude engineer is designed to be a "defense" class and also that would just steal the medic's job and also there is a reason the only class that can heal is called "medic"
As a Medic main, suggesting that Engie should be as near effective as a healer and medic should be dethroned of his role as the only healer is very bad. The more you make other classes do a thing another class specializes in that thing makes that specialized class obsolete.
And if people are going to say "But Medic has Uber" you do know that Medic's main purpose isn't uber but healing people effectively, right? Being able to uber is just a bonus to that. And say supposedly that engies can heal about 20hp/s in an area and assume that its the dispenser backpack suggested but can't overheal. That's much better than Medic since you can heal multiple targets at once, something Medic can't do with his mediguns. People don't know hard it is to top off health for about 6 allies under fire with the stock.
If engie is going to be nearly as effective as medic in healing, might as well call tf2 overwatch since healers in that game has that same problem where some healers are better than others.
This whole video about engie changes was just to make him comp viable wasn't it?
you want the guy who's only role is to heal to not be the best healer?
Rewatch the video then comment again
Piturnah damn, thats the cruelest reply ive ever read
Piturnah engi actually has the ability to kill people with frontier justice if medic wasn't the best healer he would have no other roles to give him value while engi has sentries kill power destroying sticky traps with short circuit ect.
The engine has a bloody dispenser. He literally has the second highest healing object.
Sure front line healing is one major factor of Medic, but the real thing the Medic does that makes him useful is his ubercharges. A medic who can only heal his team, even if in an area effect, isn’t even nearly as useful as any of the ubercharges really, even the vaccinator. Not to mention a dispenser backpack still wouldn’t be able to overheal.
Dane: "The Pomson removes the ability of a class, which I think should not be a thing in TF2 at all"
Also Dane: It's ok that the Short Circuit can completely shut down certain classes.
bullets and abilities are different, pyro can also deflect rockets but it takes correct timing and skill.
Ignoring the fact that the Pomson is still one of the worst weapons in the game. It's an upside it can drain Uber and cloak, but that doesn't help much when you aren't hitting anything to begin with.
I honestly really like the boost pad concept, that's something I'd use regularly. My concept of it, is that it'd be directional, so placement is still a major factor, rather than just putting it right outside of Spawn. Ideally, it'd also affect enemy players, so it could be used for traps as well, launching enemies several feet forward.
Were you drunk while making this or all others tf2 CZcamsrs had their gun pointing at you?
Really!? Remove the one form of team coordination in casual? (Engi help engi).
It's poorly balanced in risk/reward. It's too easy to stack engis and basically stop the game. Team coordination should be organizing a push. It shouldn't be just smacking your teammate's buildings for easy game freezing.
Hans Fertrig
If the defending team stacks Engineers, then stack Soldier-Medic combos or Demoman-Medic combos. It's a basic pub strategy, why can't you competitive players figure it out if you're so good at the game?
Hans Fertrig meem + hoovy = engi gun boom boom
Liam yeah that’s ass backwards
Autocorrector Guy,
A bit late on this, but the problem with that is that it's easier said than done. It's easy to switch to engi and help other engis and maybe they help you. Trying to coordinate by telling people to switch classes is far more difficult.
11 players is a lot to carry, especially when there are far too many pick and support classes, and not enough power classes. For some reason, people don't appear to enjoy playing the useful classes (soldier, medic, demoman, heavy) as much as the specialists (spy, sniper, engineer, scout).
In short: Stacking engis is too much easier than stacking demos and soldiers. Just because there is counterplay doesn't make it well designed.
"the medic class is the only class able to heal" RIP sandvich and dispenser
Id be fine with a class limit, but if cooperative engineering gets removed id just stop playing engineer or tf2 altoegether