Douglas Murray and Yanis Varoufakis: The EU is broken
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Douglas Murray and Yanis Varoufakis join Freddie Sayers.
Accompanying article here: unherd.com/thepost/douglas-mu...
Listen to the podcast version: shows.acast.com/lockdowntv-wi...
The EU has had a difficult pandemic. A slow procurement of vaccines, followed by a botched rollout, and blame-shifting by its leaders has drawn together critics from all politics stripes. Two of unlikely bedfellows from very different political traditions, Douglas Murray and Yanis Varoufakis, joined Freddie Sayers for a discussion about the bloc at an UnHerd members event.
Murray's feelings about the EU are well-known, having long been a critic of the bloc and writing a best-selling book on the subject. Varoufakis, meanwhile, has been on more of a journey. Once a staunch proponent of the 'Remain and Reform' position of the EU, the former Greek finance minister was a prominent backer of the Remain campaign in 2016. But fast-forward four years and Yanis’ views on the EU began to shift. In an interview with UnHerd during the UK’s first lockdown, he said that was so dismayed by the efforts to undo the result that he changed his mind on Brexit. This week, he made his most unambiguous statement yet, confirming that the EU's poor vaccine rollout has convinced him of the virtues of Brexit
// Timecodes //
00:00 - Intro
01:21 - Flaws in the structure
03:50 - Grexit
05:04 - Brexit - a good idea?
17:10 - The migration question
35:51 - Is Hungary a window into the future of the EU
38:09 - The possibility of uniting the Left and Right
42:29 - Can there be a democratic group beyond national borders?
49:41 - Final thoughts
#EU #Covid-19 #Greece
Freddie you are a great conversationalist and now a great moderator. Thanks for this, it was an excellent example of what this medium has to offer. Keep up this brilliant endeavor.
He's gotta get another cup of coffee!! 😴😴
This is a masterclass of a debate; one of the best I have ever seen, albeit too short. Two people supposedly in stark opposition politically; listing to each-other, engaging constructively with one another... Should be shown as an example to students across the world as to how we ought to discourse.
If only it was also an example to Parliament
Yes. I wonder why such debates can't be had on more established media outlets. But apparently they cannot, so I'm happy to find them here.
@@excel04 Not possible with the present opposition which is largely made up of p.c. extremists and just plain idiots.
Yes, and note it is a new start-up, not tired old media, giving us this long-form intelligent dialogue!!
@Robert Kavanagh absolutely. We must look who owns the press and what the agenda is or are . Easiest strategy to divide people between one and the other. People needs to be educated about all this . There needs to be a movement like back in the day Bottoms 🆙.
wow wasn't expecting to ever see these two paired up. brilliant
Freddie, a superb "gold standard" example of top-tier intellectual point-counterpoint presentation and debate. Showcasing Humanity's miraculous gift of Reason & Speech. Production values, audio, video, lighting, all "invisible" allowing the conversation to shine through. Fabulous rhythm and flow keeps one fully engaged. Young people, regardless of their belief or opinion, especially need to see how respectful intellectual conversations can take one person, or the entire Human Family, to the highest good, to productive positive win-win solutions, even when not 100% in agreement on philosophies. These two highly gifted, brilliant thinkers/orators make the marriage of left/right brain harmony look so natural and "easy", and, of course, they are the stars your show today! One of your very best, imho, Freddie!
Well said.
Can you imagine Donald Trump partaking? Truly great intellectua discussion un civilised manner. Thank you!
@@ARenewedmind why bringing DT into this conversation?
Fracking hell... Really?!?! does anyone still take this lying hypocrite that constantly contradicts himself seriously?!?!?! He just goes round regurgitating often contradictory "theories" and rehashing the obvious and his conflicting waffle depending on the audience and who's paying... Just look at the results of his "policies" and "predictions" - why do you think he was dropped kicked out of government by his "communist" comrades who were initially selling him as a "rock star" politician?!!!!
Don't fall for his duplicitous waffle and delusions of adequacy... he is little more than a narcissistic, treacherous little "populist" stooge and - to quote the pathetic clown himself - "a comedy of errors wrapped up in harmless waffle" - which sums this champagne socialist perfectly...
Lets face it, he just regurgitates and adapts his conflicting waffle according to his audience and who's paying... just ask his former "communist" comrades who also betrayed Greece - or those holding his off shore accounts...
Time to wake the fracking hell up! It's actually slimy treasonous "populist" stooges like this and little niggle fartmirage that are undermining Europe!
Wow,and some people think the age of 'purple prose' has gone.
Good to see heavyweights from left and right.
You mean featherweight demagogues. Varoufakis' heart may be left wing but his wallet ain't
@@CM-eg3gl when you are left leaning you are by definition a demagogue, starting with Marx himself…
Mr. Defeatist and Mr. Defeated. No wonder they're both fully allowed on all online platforms.
@@CM-eg3gl ''Featherweight''..and yet what you have to offer is ad hominems.
@@CM-eg3gl Just like the majority of sanctimonious & supercilious liberals.
I could quite easily watch a 3 hour debate between Murray and Varoufakis.
Same...
Yes I was just going to post the same, except 5 hours.
@@fiveleavesleft6521 it’s not a competition but why spend so much time watching debates when you could read about the subject yourself everyone has some bias so yes listen from people that explore the topic but also read and make your own conclusions.
@@jackbauer5455 Kind of a strange projection there. I've read several thousand books including by both of the guys above, Sapolsky, Harari, Dawkins, Pinker, Haidt etc. They are great but they are monologues- an actual open intelligent conversation is a totally different dynamic and experience.
@@fiveleavesleft6521 Spending 5 hours watching a debate seems counter productive unless you actually participate in the debate since its about putting the things you listen into practice by having your own discussion that is how you grow and learn not by watching others for 5 hours just my experience. Why make it 5 hours if you can make your point across in 3 hours or less? The aim is to summarize the discussion in the least amount of time possible without comprising the quality of the message.
“The stupidest way to make critical and important decisions is to place those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong.” Thomas Sowell
He may as well have described the current public school educated Conservative Party.
They make decisions on behalf of working people never having to work a day in their lives. How would they possibly know what working people want?
@@henryburton6529 What a strange - and by implication, inaccurate retort, not least because the Conservative party is neither devoid of disgrace or resignation inducing scandal!
Nevertheless, should you perceive the current government all but absolved of accountability then it would be more prudent to ascribe proportionate blame to Labour who’re currently failing to provide anything even approaching effective opposition. To put it mildly...
@@makara80 I'm not sure whether I was clear with my last post as your post doesn't seem to make sense.
What I'm saying is the current government are mostly from immensely wealthy families.
They have no concept of what working people live like. They have no idea about the challenges we face because none of them have ever faced them or ever will.
For that reason I am not surprised they implement policies that would enrich their donors and hurt working people without remorse.
Labour have nothing to do with it.
The current labour party have had no power for over a decade now. They are not responsible for anything about how this country is run. They have not had a say in it.
The tori party?
@@henryburton6529 As much as you might dislike the current government, more people disagree with you than agree - that's why the Conservatives have a substantial majority. If, however, public confidence in the Tories wanes, then the public have the ability to democratically elect a replacement. This is what it means to be accountable to the people, and to "pay a price for being wrong".
Yanis has basically said that Greece is trapped in the EU, hardly an advertisement for it. I hope some of my fellow Scots learn this before voting for independence...
Aye!
Yes the Nationalists yearning for “independence”, by leaving a generous union in order to join a mean one.
I've never been to Scotland but I think a lot of this is down to a kind of historical 'cultural resentment': Culloden, Upper Clyde Shipbuilders, etc. That the Scot Nats have tapped into this, and are exploiting it just for an elite group to gain power? I think the scots should look closely at what the Scot Nats are actually offering: "Will it make us any more scottish?" "Will we be better off economically with independence?"
@@stepchicken3238 yes the numbers do not make sense at all...
You commonly see Scotland portrayed as ‘as rich as our Scandinavian neighbours’, the big number £160bn, which is GDP, not govt revenue.
Scottish govt has a tiny tax base of a million people: “There are estimated to be 4.5 million adults in Scotland in 2019-20 and 2.5 million income tax payers. Around 2 million adults, or 44.6% of all Scottish adults, will not pay income tax as they will earn less than the Personal Allowance.” (Gov.scot website)
The Scottish govt get about £65bn in taxes... and spend £75bn (actually £81,015,000 as of 2019-20). The difference is paid by tax payers from elsewhere in the UK... the famous Barnett Formula. Westminster handed Scot govt £8bn over covid (that’s about ten years of oil revenue).
These numbers from Scottish Govt: www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers-2019-20/pages/5/
The cry is always, the oil. £700m in revenues in 2020? This isn’t changing anything.
Orkney & Shetland are pursuing independence from UK and from Scotland, which would mean most of the oil/gas goes to them:
www.spectator.co.uk/article/freedom-for-shetland
Here is (Westminster, biased?) easy summary of the numbers:
commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06625/
When/if independence negotiations happen, Scotland will have to take on a fair portion of UK national debt... at about 9% (that percentage to be negotiated), lets round it down to £100bn. Or nearly twice the Scottish govt revenue.
Tiny tax base. Gigantic disparity between income and expenditure, which oil will make no dent in. Vast debt. UK tax payers no longer helping out. Very likely the most energetic Scots seeking lives and paying tax outside Scotland, as now. Almost a fifth of Scots currently live outside Scotland: www.gov.scot/publications/demographic-change-scotland/pages/7/
Not just people, but core Scottish businesses would leave: such as the Royal Bank of Scotland:
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1429856/nicola-sturgeon-news-snp-scottish-independence-rbs-hq-edinburgh-london-scotland-economy-1429856
These don’t seem like rosy prospects.
There is the major issue missed entirely in the video above: a Scottish currency. Scotland before adopting the Euro (obligatory for all new members - ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en) would have to have its own central bank with its own currency. A central bank needs to back the currency with reserves: that line on bank notes, ‘the (central) bank promises to pay the bearer’… money is a token, backed (once by gold) by the promise of other money!
Here is a brief look at the near impossibility of Scotland doing this: most especially with a working annual deficit of £20bn, and a likely debt of twice govt income, one suggestion is Scotland get immediate help from the IMF: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/post-scottish-independence-currency-plan-huge-risk-say-economists-3127558%3famp
Then there is Euro-qualification… a maximum 3% annual deficit on revenue/expenditure. To be adhered to year on year. Current estimates (which seem modest to me) are 9%.
Personally I have no strong feelings either way on Scottish independence, (or Catalonia independence, or Basque independence). But I genuinely don’t get the numbers.
@@quentinnewark2745 The Tory's and Westminster don't help. Nor do the incompetent opposition parties in Scotland. It's nothing more than people being told that they are oppressed and life will be rosey once we break the shackles... That coupled with the fact that not a lot of people up here know anything about history.... I don't know much but I know enough to understand that robert the Bruce was as ruthless as any English king of the time... He was punching up the way so is portrayed as a hero...
This is one of the most well reasoned and civil debate by representatives from 2 sides of an issue that I have seen all year. Congratulations to ALL for a wonderful conversation to listen to. Please! do it again soon!
Agreed. Seems to be what happens when you get real intellectuals debating, not just pretend ones.
I disagree. This was.a debate between a rightwing leaver and a left-wing one (for Britain anyway). The equivalent would be Corbyn vs Farage, You wouldn't understand the reason we even have an EU from this debate.
@@simonsmatthew Except that Varoufakis explains that the EU origins lie in protectionism…and much of EU current culture and organisation is still a consequence of, and reflects those origins…and this has been perfectly reasonable….But the question arises: is it relevant currently for such a large, expanding, and diverse union, and one that’s clearly no longer self sufficient, to operate under a protectionist regime and identity? Indeed, what is so special about the area as a whole that makes it deserving of protection?
@@simondegroot2240 It's about power. That is the irony that Brexiters never understood. Yes you get sovereignty outside the EU, but what use is that without power? China and the USA are basically continental sized countries with protected markets and currency areas. Japan is dependent on energy, but it has a large closed market that is not dependent on foreign capital (The Kwarteng budget shows what can happens when you do not have that: you are hostage to the international capital markets). Gernany and France wanted a large protected market and currency area like the US and China for the EU. The new Eastern states like this (and FOM rights and the German capital) but they are fiercely nationalistic and they don't want to sacrifice any national sovereignty - there main reason to join the EU was to cut themselves off from Russia and their entry was led by the aspiring bourgois class that preferred to look west. In the long term I think there will be a split between the new and older members.France and Germany can then get on with the job they started.
Yanis has a real blind spot on people's sense of kinship with there forefathers and there place on the thread of history in there own country, Uncontrolled Mass Migration has absolutely no place being forced upon people who do no want it.
It's ideology. Luther King vs X.
(their - possessive)
Stealing the resources of the 3rd world and enslaving its people caused that migration. People there are reluctant to leave their country of birth as you would be, but they are given no choice.
@@jrphartley - In Africa, which I know best, but probably in places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria etc, you would be hard pressed to find a government whose leaders and politicians of all stripes, at every level, who do not enrich themselves at the cost of their fellow countrymen. Also a well established people smuggling chain, often supported by NGO's, signalling their virtue, make the journey from remote village to city ghetto far simpler. There is nothing wrong with enterprising people trying to forge a better life but what is seen now is ugly. I don't see much goodness in any of it.
@@jrphartley An immature and frankly stock 'progressive' claim that has no bearing on reality. Do not be so willfully ignorant of the world around you.
As a centrist these are my favourite people from either side of the debate. Fantastic.
I agree I'm also centre ground on the political spectrum, Douglas & Yanis are prime examples how NOT to be FAR right & FAR left... this is what keeps the political spectrum stable, thus you get a peaceful & sensible debate which they can see eye to eye on some of the subjects plus working together...this is so important for the world to see more of.
Hats off to them both :-)
Douglas Murray is fascist?
A terrific conversation. Well done Freddie for getting these two guys together.
Douglas Murray once again proves himself the owner of a great mind and an inadequate internet connection. The man has got to get onto his provider ASAP.
Someone connect this man with a more reliable server!
Imagine Murray, Rees Mogg, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson on a desert island. Beyond paradise.
I don't mind Murray on certain topics.
He may have a great mind but it's not manifest here - nor can it be. Politics is not the stuff of intellectual virtuosity
The people were Never asked or given the choice about this immigration 'Mass immigration ' Forced upon them ! and i do not believe Yanis when he said that when over 1 million foreign people/culture invades a country of only 6 million ' that all is fine& dandy ????? and again for the Greek people Were they ever asked ????
Great debate. I think Yanis is intelligent but has a very romanticised vision of what could be and needs to accept the reality of how things are. I think Douglas is great and he seems to have the more realistic stance on most topics, especially immigration.
Very much enjoyed this mature debate
Do you read the Daily Telegraph? Was this interview sponsored by them (or the Spectator/Daily Mail)?
And what will be the result in the long term? With the migration to Europe of the Islam religion and birth of muslim children? There will be a muslim Europe. Sorry to say. That’s just statistics.
Douglas has racist tendencies and romanticised view of empire.
@@Adi-gh9dunonsense
Yannis’s perspective on immigration is based entirely on assimilation. The U.K. has followed a multi-cultural philosophy and as a result there are extensive ‘sub-cultures’ developing that conflict with British values and morality. It’s a problem.
This is why British migrants living in Spain and France must go home because they have created ghetto in Benidorm, Dordogne when the only language spoken is English and they all refuse to integrate to Spain or France
@@diegolove173 that's a rather Xenophobic view, when British tourism adds around 11 billion euros to the Spanish economy per year. Even when youth unemployment is the highest of all EU member States (39%) and that was before the pandemic.
You think the kicking out of the brits will help your country survive its economic mismanagement and over spending. Yes, you might hate the brits. But let me tell you something if it wasn't for the sunshine, cheap beer and very cheap package holiday deals. Brits would love to go more accommodating and friendly countries. Gracias para el sol, pero no hospitalidad.
@@diegolove173 The Brits and Americans know only one language and that is English. Only a very few are willing to learn a second one. I had a second home in the Algarve (Portugal) for many years where I observed exactly the same.
@@adonisnetworks I dont know how much British tourism adds to Spanish economy per year ,but assuming you are right , it wouldn't be better for those British to spend those Billions in their own country ??? Most British create guettos and refuse to integrate and assimilite to the country and culture they are IN , its a fact , immigration does not work because of this !
We have always been a multicultural people, it was always a mix of Anglo-Saxon, German, French, Scandinavian etc ETC. sadly the problem is countries where people are not "cultural Christians". Had nothing to do with the religion they believe in, more the morals and values they hold... Which is what sets this island apart from the rest of the world
Freddie and Douglas - you can't go wrong with that
Freddie is easily the best moderator/host in the world right now. He deserves a bigger platform, unfortunately the MSM is too full on propaganda for an honest broker like Freddie to survive.
MSM was never there for honest brokers.
It is only that these days an audience can be reached which does not have to go through a centralized point.
Would be great if Andrew Neil contracted him for his new channel
The EU is broken... It was never right to begin.
The truth is, the game was rigged from the start.
Paused it - I need to prepare snacks and beer properly and watch this later.
"Cartel"--the word I've been looking for to describe the WEF. Thanks, all! I was living in Greece in 2012-13, what a nightmare for the Greek people.
Douglas Murray is spot-on on the migration issue.
may i ask in what sense?
@@paolomh113 thats a question with a long answer... but in short... don't, year on year, bring hundreds of thousands of unskilled young men into a country with a completely different culture and expect it to end well.
@@elingrome5853 Thx and although I do understand about the quantity I disagree about 'unskilled young men', 'completely different culture' and 'to end well'.
@@paolomh113 In the spirit of genuine curiosity, could you elaborate on why you disagree with the descriptions given?
@@MrXaphus he could not, because "he has a dream..." as Varoufakis does. And a dream is not an elaboration of anything real.
Varoufakis said he hadn't heard of internal borders since the days of the Soviet Union.......
Well, we've had them in the UK and Italy in the last 12 months. Where has he been?
Love Douglas ❤ great speaker and writer and Freddie is very eloquent too 😀 👍
Yanis is very analytical when it comes to economics, but then goes to I have a dream when he talk about immigration. Maybe if ISIS came to Greece and started to blow up their ancient monuments he would change their toon. Just as he said, countries formed organically, culture is part of it, and mass immigration disrupts this cohesion that was part of their formation.
He is delusional and clearly a blank slater, he ignores values and culture as key to binding a people in successful democratic union
@@JamesCoffey he is a communist.
@@JamesCoffey yep!
@@nicolettecoetzee7339 I am not sure about that but he certainly refers to himself as a Marxist. (So did Mussolini, btw, even Yianis mentioned it).
He chooses to ignore the downstream negative consequences of letting in large numbers of adherents to a religion that makes them unlikely to integrate and which will continue to have a higher fertility rate than the native population.
A highly civilised, measured and clear debate. I recommend this podcast..
I'm glad they finally let have Douglas Murray have a few minutes.
What an interesting discussion with two magnificent guests. The presenter asked short questions - unlike most other interviewers - and he then allowed his guests to speak without interruption. This should be required viewing by all interviewers on mainstream TV.
Yanis comes across as likable and knowledgeable, but a bit of a Pollyanna when it comes to migration. Many cultures are simply incompatible with one another, in regards to how they view freedom of speech, acceptance of dress, food, family etc. Also, moving folks from a culture that doesn’t value education to the same extent the natives do, creates an underclass, and that discrepancy is compounded with every new generation. Eventually that will lead to cultural and racial strife in perpetuity.
Yanis needs to visit parts of the UK with large influxes of immigrants. There is no intention to integrate and become part of the system, there’s even talk of introducing Sharia Law in some areas. Many immigrant women who have been here for years can’t speak English yet they occasionally crawl out of their insular existence and try to converse with healthcare workers etc via translators, and they think this is ok.
We are a people who accept women are equal to men and yet we see foreign women wearing some of the most oppressive uniforms.
We have terrorist attacks on our territory but we are not allowed to identify difference.
The British people were never asked if mass immigration was acceptable to them, it just happened because those in Westminster are so out of touch with ordinary people, and easily influenced by big business in an attempt to feather their own nests.
Yeah, Yanis is great, but his take on immigration is retarded.
This kind of shows that the BBC is finished because they would never facilitate such a debate.
2 really excellent guests, many thanks for this channel. I wish you continued success.
Yanis will never give a damn about the background of anyone, right up to the day a member of his family is decapitated by a “refugee”. On economic matters, he’s stellar but his understanding of the purposes of Islam and its effects on European countries is utterly pitiful! Perhaps he should visit Malmo, Rotherham, Cologne or Molenbeek
Yanis has seen the effect that peddlers of hate have. He writes about his experiences in Greece under military rule.
Have you ever been to Muslim countries? They have non-Muslim minorities, living with them for thousands of years. Christian Arabs are still around and freely practicing their religion.
@@Qasibr Oh! Silly me! I forgot to mention the Christian population of Turkey, who accounted for nearly 100% of the population and have now dwindled to single digits.
@@Qasibr For some reason, CZcams didn’t register my last message. I can’t be bothered to argue with you so I won’t be repeating the message. Suffice it to say that I’m under no illusions about “The Religion of Peace” 🤮
@@Qasibr Christianity went through the same thing. Best not to demonize everybody who follows Islam , the worlds largest and most followed religion. Dangerous to demonize every 1 in 3 people who are also largely normal and peaceful people.
@@andylewis7360 haha and you think Christianity is a “ religion of peace “? Non of the Abrahamic faiths are only peaceful. For a religion that 1 in 3 of the worlds population follows, yes it is largely peaceful, the statistics say so.
I think there is a weakness in Yanis' argument in that the basic unit of democracy is the nation state, and that a nation state is made up primarily, even in this age of mass migration, of genetically similar people. Those people must be consulted on issues relating to the dissolving of their nation state within a supra national structure, or migration which is so substantial that it completely changed the national character, particularly within a space of time too short for the nation and culture to adapt.
Yanis, like so many on the left, don't place anywhere near enough importance on cultural difference. It's simply a fact that Albanians can assimilate into Greece FAR easier than Syrians or Somalians into Europe. Saying so doesn't depend on a claim that European culture is better than that of the Middle East or the wide variety in Africa, but that they are VERY different. Yanis, and the left more broadly, want to pretend that culture doesn't matter; that people are people, no matter what their culture. But it's simply not true. Europe and its descendants (the broad Anglo world) have a common cultural connection based in Christianity and the Medieval world that is profoundly alien to those from outside it.
@@Incornsyucopia I agree. It is absurd to compare Albanians, who already lived next door to Greece, with Somalians and claim there is 'no difference'. That's like saying because French people can easily integrate in the UK that Africans also can. It is too great a simplification with too many unknowns.
Thank you! Well put.
As other people have said, what a fantastic sharing of views and opinions that is SO missing in British politics! We can only hope that someday it will return, but I am not optimistic!
Varoufakis is in fantasy land about migration
In general!
Don't think so. He is a politician, he wants US to sleep.
His ilk always ignore the demographic consequences of letting in enough immigrants that the native population becomes a minority. The only countries that survive in the long term have strong borders.
Thanks for another great interview, UnHerd.
I don't understand how Yanis can be so sensible when diagnosing what ails the EU, yet be so blinded by his political ideology to be unable to recognize the factors that lead to the societal crisis happening in places like Sweden.
Yanis is a fool for taking for granted the culture he is born into. what a shame.
He is the treacherous castle guard leaving the secret gate open to the enemy...
I agree
These people dont understand once their culture is gone it aint coming back. Same happened to Romans. Once its gone its gone forever.
@@martinpospisil3747 good point about the Romans.
40:00 Is Yanis not aware of the MASSIVE increase in sexual crimes of all kinds, from groping on public transport to year of savage enslavement and sadistically violent gang rape that has has been going on because of all of this?
I’ve seen that as a trope peddled by hate merchants. Do you know this to be
true statistically?
@@Qasibr There's a powerful interview by Triggernometry with a grooming gang victim which goes into the racially motivated aspect. Triggernometry is a great channel too.
@@Qasibr lookup 'Rotherham grooming gangs'
@M C BOT
@@Qasibr Yes, you can (at least 2 years ago), check out the national statistics in Sweden. Low numbers until the arrival of the migrants. They have the best and most public statistics, but it is repeated all over Europe.
very educational so thank you. Shows how you can have people with different views discuss respectfully and educate us all. |Well done too to the moderator.
The problems they attribute to the EU are simply replicated in the UK: lack of government accountability and complete lack of government competence. Neither system is fit for purpose.
excellent debate. So refreshing to see no one overspeaking each other to make a pointless soundbite.
ThAnkyou for this ! Such a pleasure to hear these men exchange ideas.
#douglasmurray
31:19 excellent, excellent question. I had the exact same suspicion last time I tried living in London
33:00 - that’s just not true. I was working security in London in 2012 and earning less money than I’d earned in Liverpool 10 years previously , absolutely because of a huge number of immigrants willing to work for less money.
@@RICHARDGRANNON not true.
Excellent debate . I loved Douglas’s book and I am very interested in Yanis’s views. Well done Freddie too . 👏👏
Anyone else notice the Michelle Houlebecq book, just over DM''s left shoulder?
Submission?
Douglas and Yanis are two people who you know have read every book on their shelves behind them.
So what, when Mr Varoufakis had power to do something for Greece he sold it lock stock and barrel to the EU! He is an inflated personality trying to stay relevant. I don't trust one thing that comes out of his mouth.
What about the fact that the auditors of the European Commission have been unable to sign off their annual report and accounts for the past 25 years? When the chief auditor, Marta Andreassen, eventually went public about this, after 10 years of nagging them to get their books in order, she was instantly sacked. This involves hundreds of billions of taxpayers' money. Would any other huge entity be allowed to behave like this?
A long exposed falsehood, cant believe you are still peddling this. Try google
@@theBagheera22 Well I tried Google as you suggested and the top results (from credible sources/institutions) pretty much all confirm Marie’s assertions. Nice try.
@@makara80 fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/
@@theBagheera22 One link to a ‘charity’ of dubious integrity, staffed almost exclusively by veterans of the leftwing press and receives the mainstay of its funding via “big tech” ...against well over a dozen articles and reports from rather more credible sources...
Nice try.
@@makara80 let me know what right wing frothing at the mouth tin foil hat website passes muster in your world
This is one of my favourite debates. Huge fan of both of these chaps. The fact that the two of them, despite being very different, had so much in common makes me hopeful for the future of the Left and the Right.
Freddy, great job. Really interesting discussion done in good faith between people with differing views. Need more of this. Thanks Yannis and Douglas
"Political cross-dressing" is an apt description of some of the arguments presented here.
As a Greek citizen I will try to comment in a chronological order (as the clip progresses) to various claims that Varoufakis makes.
So, comment no 1 (@around 4:00) : The “yes/no” referendum was extremely ambiguous and pretentious from the get-go. We were never given specific definitions of what “no” and/or “yes” really meant.
We had a general idea that “no” meant outside of the Eurozone while “yes” meant participation in the Eurozone and that was a contextual understanding (solely derived from the advocations of the equivalent political representatives).
It turned out that the whole stage was set us so as to give the constituency the illusion/impression of allowing for a democratic vote whereas in reality the outcome (of what Greece would ultimately do) was predetermined behind the scenes just as Varoufakis described.
The very fact that Varoufakis hadn’t himself understood that the people he associated with were dishonest and pretentious tells a lot about his own abilities for judging characters.
I hope this humbling experience made him a bit less arrogant than where he started from. I wouldn’t bet on that though!
I feel pity for the Greek situation, until I see comments like this. You're calling the best advocate for Greece arrogant, seems like you're the arrogant one. You live in a country filled with the ruins of a collapsed empire but still attack the guy trying to prevent the collapse of Greece today. I would gladly trade any of my country's politicians for varoufakis.
@@sandworm9528 nonsense!
@@C_R_O_M________ beautiful rebuttal, Plato would be proud to see how far the Greeks have come
@@sandworm9528 it's analogous to your arguments. Nothing more or less. I wrote all these things and you wrote virtually nothing to counter-argue my points. Sorry to disappoint you.
To have a high quality discussion like this one you need two people who aren't just intelligent but also honest, which is why they happen so rarely.
That was an extremely interesting conversation. And very well moderated. Thank you UnHerd.
They're not talking to each other
A good one, 😊
I can't believe how many comments below are talking about how civil and reasoned this conversation between these men is. I grew up in an era where that wasn't exceptional, or something out of the ordinary, in fact it was commonly accepted as that is how it is done. This shows just how far down the crapper our societies have gone, where people are talking not about the contents of the conversation itself, just how it was conducted
Thank you Douglas!
Yanis tries to quote MLK. Yet stands on the side pushing CRT.
Good to hear Douglas
It's great to see people debating rather than shouting each other down.
Yanis hopelessly naive on multi-culturalism - witness Batley Grammar.
Batley is what England is now. The EU did not do that to you - you did it yourselves.
@@terencefield3204 eh?
@@iconicon5642 Your obtuse stupidity is your problem, and nobody else's.
@@terencefield3204 What have I done to myself?
Great guests, thank you.
Lol. Yanis, George Monbiot, Dale Vince. Prominent Remainers who have now all seen the light. Hallelujah.
So happy to hear Yanis changed his mind regarding Brexit, I was disappointed when he didn't support us on the left who voted to leave the EU, I always felt it was incongruous with his political discourse.
Thank you Douglas, Yanis. Thank you Freddie.
Yanis, your 1m Albanian Muslim immigrants in 1991 - 'no problem'. Many in Europe might call that 'foot in the door' mass migration.
Lampedusa Dover Paris Brussels, this summer, will probably not agree with your generous 'no problem' sentiment. Economists = other peoples' cash.
A superb pairing, brilliantly moderated.
Well done Freddy
Nuanced discussion, we need to democratize the euro, disband the Eurocrats in the Euro, as undemocratic as the unelected Vietnamese communist party. Douglas you are bright, show empathy for a plurality of cultures, we can unite if we live under a genuine democracy and participate in the decision making that affect all our lives. Thanks for the Talk gentlemen... Doug Devine American/ Aussie with a Filipina wife :)
“Acrobatic stance” Freddie ..... you make my day!
D.Murrey is capable of hitting true on many issues...great discussion though pity the step back policy imposed on Italy is never mentioned.
Hang on,did Yannis just say that Germany would leave the euro before Greece etc?The moderator instantly changes the subject (despite Murray's raised eyebrows),doesn't this require some sort of explanation?
It’s highly likely because Germany is no longer in a position to be the main financier of the project. In fact, if Germany stopped paying for 65% of the EU budget (its share), tomorrow, the EU would cease to exist. There is tremendous dissatisfaction about the EU within Germany and there is the beginnings of serious discussion about a Dexit. You just won’t hear about it if you don’t live here.
@@cloudybeforerain7134 Germany is not the main financier. It is the main beneficiary of the project. Don't you understand how the EU works?
There is some dissatisfaction in germany with the EU, but it's not from the government or the wealthy. They are benefitting from it. The regular germans have seen their living standards crash in the last 20 years and it has been done by their own government and their industrialists. It's not really a nice place to live, any more. It will only change when the regular people (not their leaders who already have their fingers in the pie) from the other EU countries realise what is happening, that germany will leave, or be forced to become part of a democratic Europe.
It's for the financial reasons that leaving the EU isn't favoured by the german masters.
Also, a big problem would then be losing the Euro, for germany, because a reintroduction of the Deutschmark would make german products too expensive for export. The country would suffer (well your masters would start to suffer). The regular germans would suffer even more.
So I think it is more likely that they will stay in, for the meantime, at least until they are rumbled.😆
I've listened to many speeches and lectures from Yanis over the past 6 years or so. He is an extremely interesting and engaging speaker. In that time nothing he has said explains why he ended up supporting remaining in the EU.
I give him credit for, unlike the other remain activists and supporters, respecting the UK vote and for changing his mind in the light of the subsequent events.
Typical person of the Left, Yanis is attributing something to Douglas he did not say so pulling the Martin Luther King Jr quote on race and character is a cheap shot. There is a difference between unfettered illegal migration into a country and all the burdens on the citizenry that entails and legal migration. There is also a difference between assimilated immigrants, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity etc, and unassimilated immigrants. Why are Western countries not permitted to maintain their cultures and some control over who comes in to stay? No one is going to African, Asian or Middle Eastern countries, who have very controlled immigration policies, demanding they change. A black, an Asian, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Swede for that matter who immigrants to another country has the responsibility to get with the program so to speak in their new country or stay at home.
I love Yanis "the Illegitimate Love Child of Leonard Cohen" Varoufakis, but the example of Albanian refugees in Greece is not a good one. The cultural and linguistic proximity of those countries makes integration a much more likely outcome than, say, Syrians immigrating to Sweden or Germany.
Linguistic proximity? 😵
The Greeks I know don't like Albanians and wish they didn't go there
@@nick101984 Isn't that the definition of racism? There are indeed racist Greeks as well as decent Greek people.
@@alexbatsis2785 these were very decent patriotic Greeks who didn't like being responsible for Albanians and gypsy as well. The bad Greeks have allowed that to happen. Now if I remember correctly the unemployment is like 40% for people 35 and under. Then the ones who do work make 7-1000 euros a month. They didn't seem to happy about it. Greece is a wonderful beautiful place I wish them tbe best!
@@alexbatsis2785 Perhaps a more constructive alternative to simply deriding large swathes of people as ‘racist’ is to consider _why_ such apparent prejudice manifests. It could of course very well be predicated on a conventional aversion to outsiders/foreigners. Or perhaps there are other, more substantial causes worthy of consideration...
Finally: truly opposing sides, found in the same conversation! Freddy & UnHerd, the value that your channel brings to the community increases by the week!!!
Outstanding conversation
This video demonstrates how bad the internet connection is here in the U.K.
yeah, "as a liberal" and "as an economist" ... and what of the friction of cultures? That's happening and it's destructive.
Great interview 😊👍
How come almost all areas that voted Leave have very few immigrants? Remain areas have far more.
Kudos LockdownTV for having such a wonderful convergence of traditionally opposing forces.
I really like Yannis, and enjoyed his book.. but he really does some mental gymnastics backflips trying to rationalise immigration.
On the contrary, he is telling it like it is.
@@DonGonzalito Actually if you listen carefully he tells people what to think on the topic of migration, he doesn't tell it "like it is". He said "we should all have a dream..." which by itself is quite presumptuous and assumes we should all have the same vision as him. Then he proceeds to describe children growing up in multi-racial, multi-cultural societies where all differences are irrelevant apart from the content of one's character. There are so many flawed assumptions baked into that statement that its difficult to know where to start. The most obvious one being that when a society has no culture or value system to bind it we wouldn't even agree on what it means to have good character. Look at America tearing itself apart at the seams. One side thinks children learning about cross-dressers will build character, the other considers it anathema.
@@nikola9348 Your answer has so many nativist misconceptions about "caracter", that one doesn't really know how to address it.
But, to stay on point, Varoufakis is just pointing at the typical "that immigrant came to steal your bread" trite song, which you seem to have swallowed whole.
@@DonGonzalito You don't know anything about me or my views bar what I wrote above. None of what I wrote says anything about immigrants stealing jobs. I don't know what you expect me to read into your response other than that you find it easier to straw-man people than engage with what they actually said.
Back to character - my point is that one of the main reasons Western society is falling apart and everyone is at each others' throats is because we can't agree on a common set of moral values. In such circumstances it becomes impossible to have a unified vision of what it means to have good character. One person's good character is another's flawed/sinful character. The point is not that immigration is the cause of this. The point is that Varoufakis's dream that mass immigration will work seamlessly because we will all value the content of someone's character by the same set of standards is naive to the point of absurdity.
@@nikola9348 Now you proceed to build a "mass migration" strawman. Try harder.
Excellent discussion. Increased my knowledge of the issues discussed. Thank you!
This was a great one. Thank You.
Yanis is the classical internationalist leftist. "All peoples are one, just blend all humanity into one undifferentiated whole"....all that nonsense.
Exactly right. Also, I am greek.
you deliberately misunderstand him in order to easily put down an argument he didn't make
@Michael Rosenzweig precisely! I have the greatest respect for Yanis Varoufakis..one of the rare heroes willing to stand up for the truth with compassion for the vulnerable. But i suppose what we need to do is to stop bickering and wasting our time with out of date left /right arguments and fight for a democracy!
@Michael Rosenzweig despite whatever Facebook/ Twitter echo chamber you’re apart of tells you, the UK does not resemble 1931 Germany in any sense, quit the drama Michael.
And weirdly it is actually anti-diversity! These people don’t actually know what they want!
100 points for your description text. It's top notch.
The bullshit-o-meter still detects some level of activity when Yanis speaks. The man is not hopeless though ... But neglecting Cultural differences *never* pays off. Ever. If he hasn't learned it yet then not sure when he ever could.
Yes, he made no real criticisms about what the EU did to Greece. He still sees Tsipras as his friend! He described himself as a Marxist (of some sort). He is attracted to centralised, bureaucratic states.
Yanis has abstract ideas that make no sense when you start applying real life logic. Like he says that all publicly listed company dividends should be paid to the entire public as a universal basic income. So basically, the owners of those companies are investing in them to later not be paid dividends that they are investing for. Or companies will just stop issuing dividends... Such a strange guy.
@@harisadu8998 Basically, a self-publicist setting himself up as the people's champion - the cultural Marxist angle - whilst 'walking both sides of the street.' The net provides a perfect medium to operate within to turn the usual dry subject of Economics into a radical platform. There are loads of them like him on the net, "How do I obtain fame and fortune from what I know?"
I got the feeling he knows he's is wrong but he also knows that if he fully admits to it he gets called a racist ,ect
Also, he hates the EU, but wants to preserve it so he gets to hold the reigns. Typical Communist, I'm afraid.
Douglas is amazing!!!
congratulations for a wonderful show. main stream media is barely worth watching nowadays. thank you for providing intelligence and substance. it's nice to see once in awhile. well done.
Yanis: It is so endearing when people talk about "the dream of your children playing with other children and not caring about their skin colour...." As if it is some Unicorn dream. Well, Yanis, that is how I grew up and still live now at 66. I form easier friendships with a colleague (black skinned of my age - 65+) than with the millennials in the office. I get on better with my (black) Zimbabwean neighbours than with the rich white people, who bleed wokeness, that I go hiking with, but ask me why I don't buy a new car (presumably because only stupid people don't upgrade their wheels every two years) and why I don't move to a safer neighbourhood. I'm tempted to snap "check you white privilege!" except that I'm white myself. These ivory tower people just can't take their eyes off their navels and notice that other people have different circumstances, which require different choices.
To the Europeans, race has never been about altruism, but about proving their moral superiority.
In South Africa, the country that served as the benchmark of evil against which Americans (despite their Jim Crow laws) and the Europeans can show they are good people, actually, by comparison.
In this South Africa nobody would ever have been bothered about anyone's race, unless you insist on slaughtering goats in your backyard. But instead of trying to change your ways or condemn your culture or trying to westernise/civilise/Christianise you - let's just live in separate areas. Of course that can also go wrong, but not as badly wrong as things went wrong in the US and the UK.
I just get so sick of people, who secretly fear their souls are rotten to the core, cast their eyes around for another nation that they can burn as witches
The lack of desire to build a fantastic civilization unlike other periods in history presents itself in everything that has been discussed today. If one would imagine for instance, the beauty of Greece , that beauty has not disappeared it still exists.... that we choose not to rebuild such a beautiful city as Athens and instead we create an environment that makes it impossible for people to have a nice life. If we would act from our hearts and not our heads we would do amazing things ...... there is enough in this world for everyone, there is enough creative people in this world to achieve fantastic things..... this is what we should be talking about...
ah pauline, stop talking sense! ❤️
There is no 'we' there are only individuals. Exactly what have you done ,yourself, to create this paradise? Emotions do nothing, It is years of hard work. What are you learning that would enable you to make a difference?
@@ELee-zv5ud I am wondering how your comments are contributing to an investigation into some of the ideas I have spoken of. Let’s look closely at what is said and ponder the ideas and situation rather than embark on sarcasm I am quite open to learning other people’s ideas and opinions.
Not even Douglas Murray's internet wants anything to do with him 😆
Excellent video, I don't align much with Yanis world views but I find his thoughts interesting and can listen to him for hours. I hope one day our politicians have the spine to get into these kind of debate forums, It would bring some much needed honesty and transparency to politics.
No to vaccine passports
Quite right Yanis. Brussel lacks democracy and transparency. The people within the Eurozone countries are getting fed up with Brussel. At the end each country looks after his own interests and there is very little "one for all and all for one". If the Eurozone wants to survive is has to be reinvented.
Yes for peacekeeping and free trade. Forget the political project
The problem with the immigration debate is how emotionally charged it is. Its hard to convince people that their culture and way of life and even economic wellbeing are not being threatened. The facts do not support that at all but these feelings are not based on facts but emotions, predominantly fear. Hard to argue against fear.
Yanis is the dreamer and Murray is the realist...but both good people and agree on many important things. This is how discussions between people on the left and right 'could' be...
Greek politicians made a colossal error of joining the eurozone with little understanding of the consequences which are mostly the total loss of sovereignty and a brutal straitjacket for the ages. The UK was fortunate enough to never have participated in the eurozone (some credit Soros for his bets against the Bank of England which at the time felt horrible but perhaps it was a blessing in disguise), so the breakup from the unintelligent club was far easier. Now what the UK has to do is a constitutional adjustment because the European Acquis remains the Supreme Law of the UK with many possibilities for future disappointment. As for Greece; just forget it. She is in maximum isolation in the EU prison with no possibility for parole.
On the contrary, what you identified as a “colossal error” it was the fact that exposed Greece’s intrinsically bad economic design as soon as the first economic crisis appeared on the horizon. By not having the ability to issue new debt in their own currency the Greek governments had to start restructuring the economy (admittedly, in a painfully slow manner - since the leftist mentality had to been exposed to the constituency - hence the reign of the ridiculous Varoufakis bunch - so as to make masks drop). If Greece had still access to the printing press, it would have prolonged its procrastination to progress into something more viable. Problems are not solved until their social security gets a radical solution like substantial cuts of benefits and pensions! In other words, there’s a long road ahead to be covered. One step at a time.
@@C_R_O_M________ What you just said is pure German propaganda and therefore I will not reply to such profound nonsense.
@@Athenaikos I wouldn’t expect you to! I am merely stating facts for others to read. You are most likely of Greek decent as I certainly am too. I know the system from up close and personal. Disagree all you want but make it with arguments and see where dialectics will get you. I have pretty solid arguments in support of my case. Are you up for the task? P.S. Exactly which part is German propaganda (laughing out loud for that!)? I mentioned a bunch of things. Are you bundling them all together?
i don't always agree with Yanis but he is a very decent guy who knows his stuff. I recently read his book 'And The Weak Suffer What They Must?' which is very good and makes a good companion to Ashoka Mody's 'EuroTragedy'. It's good to know that he has changed his mind on Brexit.
He knows his stuff, but he is the exact opposite of decent. He is a ruthless narcissist - in terms of his political presence, I mean, as I don't know him personally, he may be a very nice person on that level.
@@AALavdas Really?
@@phwbooth yes, that’s a somewhat accurate representation of Varoufakis, he is for sure a narcissist (and I can detect his narcissistic tendencies as a psychologist) and moreover, he repeatedly deceives people with half-truths.
I am in position to say so since I also have training in economics and I am an active private investor. He sells his product, himself, to those that don’t have a high resolution view of socioeconomic realities.
For instance, he constantly conceals from the audience that the Greek governments were taking upon debt like there was no tomorrow since they joined the Euro (hard currency low interest rates) while GDP inflation was not based on production but, rather, due to the artificial liquidity from that very debt. This of course, provided a perfectly timed “hiccup” and a substantial headwind (such as that from the housing debt crisi in the US) revealed the total nakedness of the Greek economy and “Greek statistics”! I am Greek btw.
@@C_R_O_M________ I agree with you! I am Greek, too.
@@C_R_O_M________ is he effectively a charlatan? I was quite impressed by his eloquence and his grasp of the English langue given it’s not his first language but I do detect some of what you’ve said now upon reflection. I don’t know the ins and outs of the Greek debt crisis, but just going off his comments about immigration and assimilattion, they struck me as very shallow and glib.
Thanks for this intelligent and thoughtful debate, I found it very interesting.
Most of the arguments levelled against the EU could equally be levelled at the UN. Will there be BRUNXIT?