I think it's worth mentioning that Thessaly is however rather well researched for the Neolithic and Bronze Age, when it was an important center, first of the mainline European Neolithc (Sesklo, Otzaki, etc.), of likely Vasconic language, then of the Halaf-related wave that invaded Anatolia and parts of the Balcans c. 5000 BCE (Nea Nikomedia, Dimini, Vinca in Serbia, etc.), which I interpret as carriers of the Pelasgo-Tyrsenian languages (and Y-DNA J2 a genetic marker, later re-expanded by Rome). Thessaly was one of the last bastions of this wider ethno-cultural group after the Indoeuropean invasions that ravaged the Danube and other parts of Central Europe in the 3rd millenium, with the culture of Rakhmani being continuous with the previous one of Dimini. It is well known that Thessaly was considered by ancient Greeks a "Pelasgian" region and this probably relates to what you mention of the Titanomachy, which probably reflects in mythological language a real war of ancient times, in the early or middle periods of Mycenaean Greece. In the Trojan legends Larissa (the main Thessalian city) was said to have sided with Troy, being thus the only "Greek" city on that side of the war.
@BLUE DOG - I don't know what you mean: Mesopotamia and the Levant, i.e. the so-called Fertile Crescent, was extremely important in several historical and prehistorical periods for all West Eurasia, India and much of Africa, it should not be ignored. There are other regions however, in the Balcans and Iberia notably in what regards to Europe, that are not getting enough attention, partly because they did not built pyramids and their language, texts and traditions have not reached us, at least in a form we can understand. Most notable maybe is the Karanovo-Gumelnita culture of Bulgaria (and surrounding groups such as Varna, Gradesnica-Krivodol and Vinca), which were the first on Earth to smelt bronze, a thousand years before anyone else: forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/01/first-ever-bronze-was-smelt-in-balcans.html -- They were unlucky enough to be overrun by the Indoeuropeans soon afterwards though. It's a bit like the Hittites and steel ("iron") tech: they were overrun by Greco-Phrygians and were forgotten for a long time as well. I'm strongly anti-Abrahamic but I don't think in this case it is the main cause of our ignorance, it is also that they left no or limited (and unreadable) written legacy, what puts them into the late prehistory category, unlike their Egyptian or Sumerian contemporaries, also their monuments are less impressive we have to admit.
@BLUE DOG - Maybe but it is largely because there is limited demand on the side of the public, whose education on these matters is in turn limited by the system, which simplifies a lot and loves sensationalism (and there's nothing more sensational than the pyramids of the terrcota warriors of China... You are right but I would not overdramatize: "normal people" can only be interested so much in the past, even people with historical interest is often limited in what they pay attention to or what they wish to believe, so Greco-Roman, Christian or Islamic history get a lot more attention than pre-Indoeuropean "mysteries", which require a lot of self-education to even grasp. It's like blind spots or inattentional blindness: people focused on Tutankhamon don't see the Nubians but as peripheral incidents at best, let alone the Berber conquest of the LBA collapse (Nubians have some pyramids at least but Berbers only some tholoi and dolmens... and one little Stonehenge in Morocco). Maybe that's why some people and princes were so focused on building durable monuments in the past, because somehow they knew we would only care about the "one big amazing thing" and not the second or third. You can read those ruins as Tennyson's Ozymandias, but I'd say that the actual message is "my name is Ozymandias, I had this amazing thing built so you, future person of many thousands years after my life, admired mine and kept me in your mind". Or as they'd say today: "my name is Ozymandias, look at my pyramid and now that I have your attention... care about me long after I lived".
Your videos are very good. I have been studying ancient Greece for a long time and it is nice to see some of the 'backwaters' explored as well. However, I think you are mistaken in one respect on this video. You mention a couple of times about other Greeks will have been familiar with Thessaly, because of the Olympic Games. Well, obviously, as you state; Mount Olympos - the home of the Gods - is in northern Greece (Thessalian border with Makedon); but the games famously occurred every four years at Olympia, which is in Elis on the Peloponnese. I'm sure you know that.
At St. John's college, in 1965, I read The Meno and then studied classical and then some New Testament Greek for two years. It is a great delight to see Meno mentioned in your video at 22:35. From that dialogue I still hear "Ook oiden." which translates as 'I don't know' which is the beginning of a powerful philosophical tradition of washing the sand out from underneath the rhetorical tangles of a sophist. Another quote from The Meno, I think was said by Meno is "virtue consists in helping your friends and harming your enemies." What an interesting statement to lay alongside your most interesting history. Thank you.
Hi, interesting to hear that the Meno used to be such a major part of the Greek curriculum. It is still taught in some Classics courses, but the Protagoras, Apology, Crito, Symposium, Euthyphro, and Republic tend to dominate courses, at least in my experience.
2:20: The Pindus mountain range does not separate (like a border or what do you mean?) Thessaly and Epirus, since Pindus is IN both regions on major parts, mostly in Epirus, and also Macedonia. Pindus stretch widely in both regions. :) PS: I would not say either that Thessaly is northeast, since northeast would be around Thrace, and east in general would be all the islands in the Aegean etc. In geographical sense the Thessalians, along with Macedonians and Epirotes are also considered northwest Greeks.
Meno was apparently a friend of "The Great King"(of Persia) according to the Platonic dialogue. W.H.D. Rouse's translation mention that Xenophon's Anabasis describes him as a treacherous, self-seeking character.
@@geordiejones5618 No, it was not. Greece was not a single political entity or state. Many states in the south did not regard Macedon as a "de facto" foe.
Pronounciation was perfect, even Greeks wouldn´t bother themselves with the pronunciation, most woundn´t pronounce the"N" in srto"n"gi, that makes it much easier to pronounce, even for Greeks... Srtogilo meaning "round", many words descending from it, as in "strobo-light", an ever round-turning light hanged from the ceilings of Discotheckes across the world...
I want to comment about something from the episode about Napoleon's Marshals. I actually am from Poland, and in general Napoleon is considered here something of a hero. He's one of three people who get namedropped in Polish anthem. Alongside Stefan Czarniecki (who's romanticized to be the model soldier, officer and patriot) and Tadeusz Kościuszko (a general who led a national uprising, you might know him from American Revolutionary War in which he was one of the generals too). There's one thing though. Sean said that Poles know their history and they know who Poniatowski was. That is... sort of true, but not really. Education in Poland is very nationalistic. People learn a lot of history, but only the parts that are convenient to nationalists. So people like Poniatowski are extensively talked about. But because history in Poland is mostly serving the propaganda, there are things that Poles dont know about. The revolution of 1905 is one of the big examples, it's rarely mentioned, despite how important it was for Poland. Similarly, people are thought that there was someone called Rosa Luxemburg, but the only thing they learn about her is that she was a Pole who wasn't in favor of Polish independence, because she was a communist. Which implicitly paints her and communists as villains. That's literally the only thing Poles learn about Rosa. Also, about the Toruatus vid - when I first saw the length of the video I thought to myself "Oh god, did he just ramble for an hour?" But after watching it... holy smokes, the dude was really accomplished and important! He definitely deserved the time he got.
Interesting, I didn't know that about Polish history, but I guess that isn't too surprising. Here in the U.S., there is often pressure on teachers in more conservative areas to put a "patriotic" spin on history, i.e. pushing American exceptionalism and downplaying Indian Removal. Most interesting historical discussions occur either at the college level or in an extracurricular setting.
Important to point out Thessaly and the Magnetes were also know for their cows which gave good milk which was know as the Milk of the Magnesians. This stuff just writes itself.
Just an FYI it wasn't Thessalian cavalry which acted as a decoy at Grannicus, but Companion cavalry, which is the cause of Peter Green's weird perspective on that battle as the squadron in that battle suffered heavy casualities and Alexander had that monument set up for them.
Good presentation! However, the ancient Olympic Games were held in Olympia, which is in the western Peloponnese, not where Mount Olympus is in the north. Mount Olympus is actually in the northern most province of Greece, Macedonia. The Ancient Macedonian administrative/military center of Dion is in the valley nearby. I know it's confusing but ancient travellers/pilgrims to the Games would head to Western Peloponnese to Olympia, not North through Thessaly to Mount Olympus. I've been to Thessaly and Mount Olympus. It's really beautiful. Never been to Olympia though...
@Jd Pv I'm talking about the place where the Alexander departed for Asia, Ancient Macedon's administrative center, and Ancient Macedon Royal burial ground (i.e. Αιγές, Βεργίνα). It's all in Northern Greece. I've seen the archaeological ruins myself.
Mt Olympus is located between Thessaly and Macedonia, and if i am not mistaken the major part is in Thessaly. As both Macedonia and Thessaly (let alone that Thessaly and Epirus (at one point as well) was part of the Macedonian Kingdom in the past) are regions in Northern Hellas (Greece), Mt Olympus generally lies in Northern Greece.
I’ve really come to cherish this channel, so grateful to you, Thersites, for sharing all your knowledge. Seriously learned a lot from your videos.
So lovely to see a documentary on Thessaly. My family is from there. Larissa on my father’s side and Agrafa on my mother’s side.
I think it's worth mentioning that Thessaly is however rather well researched for the Neolithic and Bronze Age, when it was an important center, first of the mainline European Neolithc (Sesklo, Otzaki, etc.), of likely Vasconic language, then of the Halaf-related wave that invaded Anatolia and parts of the Balcans c. 5000 BCE (Nea Nikomedia, Dimini, Vinca in Serbia, etc.), which I interpret as carriers of the Pelasgo-Tyrsenian languages (and Y-DNA J2 a genetic marker, later re-expanded by Rome). Thessaly was one of the last bastions of this wider ethno-cultural group after the Indoeuropean invasions that ravaged the Danube and other parts of Central Europe in the 3rd millenium, with the culture of Rakhmani being continuous with the previous one of Dimini. It is well known that Thessaly was considered by ancient Greeks a "Pelasgian" region and this probably relates to what you mention of the Titanomachy, which probably reflects in mythological language a real war of ancient times, in the early or middle periods of Mycenaean Greece. In the Trojan legends Larissa (the main Thessalian city) was said to have sided with Troy, being thus the only "Greek" city on that side of the war.
@BLUE DOG - I don't know what you mean: Mesopotamia and the Levant, i.e. the so-called Fertile Crescent, was extremely important in several historical and prehistorical periods for all West Eurasia, India and much of Africa, it should not be ignored. There are other regions however, in the Balcans and Iberia notably in what regards to Europe, that are not getting enough attention, partly because they did not built pyramids and their language, texts and traditions have not reached us, at least in a form we can understand. Most notable maybe is the Karanovo-Gumelnita culture of Bulgaria (and surrounding groups such as Varna, Gradesnica-Krivodol and Vinca), which were the first on Earth to smelt bronze, a thousand years before anyone else: forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/01/first-ever-bronze-was-smelt-in-balcans.html -- They were unlucky enough to be overrun by the Indoeuropeans soon afterwards though. It's a bit like the Hittites and steel ("iron") tech: they were overrun by Greco-Phrygians and were forgotten for a long time as well. I'm strongly anti-Abrahamic but I don't think in this case it is the main cause of our ignorance, it is also that they left no or limited (and unreadable) written legacy, what puts them into the late prehistory category, unlike their Egyptian or Sumerian contemporaries, also their monuments are less impressive we have to admit.
@BLUE DOG - IDK, i don't frequent the universities. Maybe you should get out more often?
@BLUE DOG - Maybe but it is largely because there is limited demand on the side of the public, whose education on these matters is in turn limited by the system, which simplifies a lot and loves sensationalism (and there's nothing more sensational than the pyramids of the terrcota warriors of China... You are right but I would not overdramatize: "normal people" can only be interested so much in the past, even people with historical interest is often limited in what they pay attention to or what they wish to believe, so Greco-Roman, Christian or Islamic history get a lot more attention than pre-Indoeuropean "mysteries", which require a lot of self-education to even grasp. It's like blind spots or inattentional blindness: people focused on Tutankhamon don't see the Nubians but as peripheral incidents at best, let alone the Berber conquest of the LBA collapse (Nubians have some pyramids at least but Berbers only some tholoi and dolmens... and one little Stonehenge in Morocco). Maybe that's why some people and princes were so focused on building durable monuments in the past, because somehow they knew we would only care about the "one big amazing thing" and not the second or third. You can read those ruins as Tennyson's Ozymandias, but I'd say that the actual message is "my name is Ozymandias, I had this amazing thing built so you, future person of many thousands years after my life, admired mine and kept me in your mind". Or as they'd say today: "my name is Ozymandias, look at my pyramid and now that I have your attention... care about me long after I lived".
Larissa is still there and is a decent-sized town to this day!
@@panagenesis2695 - But when was Larissa founded? AFAIK in the Bronze Age, not before.
Thank you for your videos about Greece, they are very detailed, really amazing!
Great! I appreciate your dedication to the memory of these timeless cities
Your videos are very good. I have been studying ancient Greece for a long time and it is nice to see some of the 'backwaters' explored as well. However, I think you are mistaken in one respect on this video. You mention a couple of times about other Greeks will have been familiar with Thessaly, because of the Olympic Games. Well, obviously, as you state; Mount Olympos - the home of the Gods - is in northern Greece (Thessalian border with Makedon); but the games famously occurred every four years at Olympia, which is in Elis on the Peloponnese. I'm sure you know that.
Nice vid, I am Greek and I never heard of Strongilovouni. You got the pronunciation pretty close btw. Also I can't wait for Epirus! Great Job
Hi, I have read Olympic games were held near the temple of Zeus at Olympia in Peloponnese. Not near the mount Olympus as you mention in this video.
That is correct
You misunderstood him, he never said that.
Thank you for the education video!
At St. John's college, in 1965, I read The Meno and then studied classical and then some New Testament Greek for two years. It is a great delight to see Meno mentioned in your video at 22:35. From that dialogue I still hear "Ook oiden." which translates as 'I don't know' which is the beginning of a powerful philosophical tradition of washing the sand out from underneath the rhetorical tangles of a sophist.
Another quote from The Meno, I think was said by Meno is "virtue consists in helping your friends and harming your enemies." What an interesting statement to lay alongside your most interesting history. Thank you.
Hi, interesting to hear that the Meno used to be such a major part of the Greek curriculum. It is still taught in some Classics courses, but the Protagoras, Apology, Crito, Symposium, Euthyphro, and Republic tend to dominate courses, at least in my experience.
Really like your channel man, keep it up!
I looked up for some info on the Catalan Company. Well, the tale of their adventures is quite "'byzantine" (:
2:20: The Pindus mountain range does not separate (like a border or what do you mean?) Thessaly and Epirus, since Pindus is IN both regions on major parts, mostly in Epirus, and also Macedonia. Pindus stretch widely in both regions. :)
PS: I would not say either that Thessaly is northeast, since northeast would be around Thrace, and east in general would be all the islands in the Aegean etc. In geographical sense the Thessalians, along with Macedonians and Epirotes are also considered northwest Greeks.
You kept mentioning passing through to go to olympic games. But those were in Olympia, not Mt. Olympus. Just to be clear.
Meno was apparently a friend of "The Great King"(of Persia) according to the Platonic dialogue. W.H.D. Rouse's translation mention that Xenophon's Anabasis describes him as a treacherous, self-seeking character.
Just one thing. The Olympic games were taking place in Olympia, in Peloponisos, not near The mount Olympos.
The Macedonians held their own Olympic games in the site of DIon which is located at the base of mount Olympos, if Im not mistaken.
@@alx1138 macedonia was like a rival greece until it absorbed greece, egypt, phonesia and all of persia
@@geordiejones5618 macedonia was greek bruh
@@geordiejones5618 No, it was not. Greece was not a single political entity or state. Many states in the south did not regard Macedon as a "de facto" foe.
Thanx for the video!
Strongilovouni (you didn't "butcher" it at all!) means round mountain.
Pronounciation was perfect, even Greeks wouldn´t bother themselves with the pronunciation, most woundn´t pronounce the"N" in srto"n"gi, that makes it much easier to pronounce, even for Greeks... Srtogilo meaning "round", many words descending from it, as in "strobo-light", an ever round-turning light hanged from the ceilings of Discotheckes across the world...
I want to comment about something from the episode about Napoleon's Marshals. I actually am from Poland, and in general Napoleon is considered here something of a hero. He's one of three people who get namedropped in Polish anthem. Alongside Stefan Czarniecki (who's romanticized to be the model soldier, officer and patriot) and Tadeusz Kościuszko (a general who led a national uprising, you might know him from American Revolutionary War in which he was one of the generals too).
There's one thing though. Sean said that Poles know their history and they know who Poniatowski was. That is... sort of true, but not really. Education in Poland is very nationalistic. People learn a lot of history, but only the parts that are convenient to nationalists. So people like Poniatowski are extensively talked about. But because history in Poland is mostly serving the propaganda, there are things that Poles dont know about. The revolution of 1905 is one of the big examples, it's rarely mentioned, despite how important it was for Poland. Similarly, people are thought that there was someone called Rosa Luxemburg, but the only thing they learn about her is that she was a Pole who wasn't in favor of Polish independence, because she was a communist. Which implicitly paints her and communists as villains. That's literally the only thing Poles learn about Rosa.
Also, about the Toruatus vid - when I first saw the length of the video I thought to myself "Oh god, did he just ramble for an hour?" But after watching it... holy smokes, the dude was really accomplished and important! He definitely deserved the time he got.
Interesting, I didn't know that about Polish history, but I guess that isn't too surprising. Here in the U.S., there is often pressure on teachers in more conservative areas to put a "patriotic" spin on history, i.e. pushing American exceptionalism and downplaying Indian Removal. Most interesting historical discussions occur either at the college level or in an extracurricular setting.
She was a traitor. All communists are the filth of the nations
They had the best candied olives 😋
Important to point out Thessaly and the Magnetes were also know for their cows which gave good milk which was know as the Milk of the Magnesians. This stuff just writes itself.
Just an FYI it wasn't Thessalian cavalry which acted as a decoy at Grannicus, but Companion cavalry, which is the cause of Peter Green's weird perspective on that battle as the squadron in that battle suffered heavy casualities and Alexander had that monument set up for them.
The recently discovered site translated to English means, round Mountain/Mountains
Good presentation! However, the ancient Olympic Games were held in Olympia, which is in the western Peloponnese, not where Mount Olympus is in the north. Mount Olympus is actually in the northern most province of Greece, Macedonia. The Ancient Macedonian administrative/military center of Dion is in the valley nearby. I know it's confusing but ancient travellers/pilgrims to the Games would head to Western Peloponnese to Olympia, not North through Thessaly to Mount Olympus. I've been to Thessaly and Mount Olympus. It's really beautiful. Never been to Olympia though...
@Jd Pv I'm talking about the place where the Alexander departed for Asia, Ancient Macedon's administrative center, and Ancient Macedon Royal burial ground (i.e. Αιγές, Βεργίνα). It's all in Northern Greece. I've seen the archaeological ruins myself.
Mt Olympus is located between Thessaly and Macedonia, and if i am not mistaken the major part is in Thessaly. As both Macedonia and Thessaly (let alone that Thessaly and Epirus (at one point as well) was part of the Macedonian Kingdom in the past) are regions in Northern Hellas (Greece), Mt Olympus generally lies in Northern Greece.
Titus Labienus was the greatest rival to Caeser. In the battle of Munda Labienus proved himself to be the Caesar's equal.
All of Greece was Albanian inhabited by a proto Albanian tribe Pelasgians before the Greeks from the north migrated in the region
-"who are you soldier??" -Achilles son of Peleas,
-" i ll remember the name, the ruler of Thessaly carries this septer give to your King Agamemnon..
@Jd Pv :) :) :0 :P
Macedonia is the real northern Greece