The greek woman was sleimam’s wife, nit his mistress, and she didn’t “take” troy’s jewelry. Jewelry were donated by him to berlin’s museum, and were lost during the end of ww2, and eventually were found in an russian museum’s basement, latetly.
@@issith7340 why should the Russians keep treasures that belong in its home cou8ntry ? that would be Turkey. and did the Germans "give" these treasures to the Russians ? No.
All of your videos are great, on clouding this one. I would make one observation regarding the Bronze Age Collapse. You leave the impression that most of the Middle East and Mediterranean states were left more or less intact. My impression is that most of them were severely damaged, reduced, or eliminated. The entire trade structure was mostly destroyed. It was a vast catastrophe, with only Egypt and the Babylonians and Assyrians being left with something like an intact state. In any event, thank you again for your excellent work!
I was gonna say the same thing. The Bronze Age Collapse was quite a real catastrophe that did stretch beyond the Greek world. But as you, this was yet another phenomenal video!
What's funny about modern sensibilities is Hector is seen as the greatest hero of the Iliad, but ancient Greeks loved Achilles egoism and greatness. It's really one of the first clues that the greeks had a very different mindset than our own.
according to the work of the Iliad and the Little Iliad, the great hero was Diomedes. He was the favorite hero of the goddess Athena. He killed many important Trojans and wounded the gods Aphrodite, Apollo, Mars. seriously injured the hero Aeneas who was saved with the help of the goddess Aphrodite. He also tried to kill Hector three times, but was saved by the intervention of the god Zeus. When Achilles killed a relative in his anger, Diomedes was not afraid to duel him for revenge. After the old Nestor, he was considered the wisest of the Greeks. Hector was a second-rate hero. Twice he was in danger of being killed by Ajax and was saved by divine intervention. Patroclus was superior to Hector. He would have conquered Troy if the god Apollo had not prevented him. The god Apollo was the one who killed Patroclus and Eumorphos delivers the second fatal blow Hector merely gave him the finishing blow in an arrogant manner and wanted to throw Patroclus' dead body to the dogs. But Hector was the man who loved his family but not his country because he could have given Helen back later and the war would have ended Among the heroes, we place Achilles, Diomedes, Ajax in the first class of bravery. Achilles and Ajax were invulnerable except for one point. In the second class was Patroklos. In the third class were Hector, Odysseus and Menelaus. Achilles was not a role model for the Greeks because he had no self-restraint
@@panagiotis7946 While I agree with you about much, Achilles was very much a role model for ancient Greeks aristocrats. Maybe you could say he falls out of favor around the time Socratic thinking supplanted the Sophists, but even Alexander idolized Achilles. He's not the only one and he's Macedonian educated by Aristotle after the change to Socratic thinking, but I find it perplexing Achilles is held in such high esteem by so many Greek aristocrats in the archaic and classical age. One of my professors said a lot of it has to do with how unashamedly selfish he was. He was denied his war bride so he stopped fighting. His cousin was slain so he resumed fighting. His refusal to participate brought Agamemnon's war machine to a halt. Even Athenians, who hold rhetoric and statecraft over martial prowess often compared Achilles to the Aristos / Aristoi (the best).
Your patience with PowerPoint always impresses me. Edit: Since I watched this video we continue to learn more of this civilization and it wouldn't surprise me if the age of their beginning may even be pushed back. Very interesting.
Rewatching this video has made me realize people are wacko. Some guy is even trying to say Mycenaean GREEKS were ancient Serbians. Which is stupid because Serbians were Slavs. Slavs didn't move there until the 6th century AD invading Byzantine territory. Then some are saying they aren't Greek when this video showed the evidence. The weirdos came out for this one for some reason.
They are flat earther-like nationalists from the Balkans, basically they believe that everything came from them and that they are authocthonous to the region, as well as the creators of the indo european and indigenous languages. They also deny evidence and call it freemasonic or jewish. They are basically conspiracists. I'm afraid that's the result of too much communist propaganda, which was even worse in Albania and North Macedonia (I mean the latter literally exists because they claim a greek tribe!)
One option for a large kernel of truth in the Trojan war could be a conflict not unlike the hundred year between England and France where it actually was a series of smaller conflicts, so not one decades long siege, but a decade long series of battles over the same thing
You've got some of this wrong. Schliemann was a treasure hunter, not an archaeologist. Sophia was his second wife, not mistress. Many people at that time and later thought he had the jewelry made and put it there himself, because he owned a very successful gold mine and made his fortune from gold mining. Also, he was alone when he "discovered" the jewelry. Sophia was not there (although he wrote that she was) and the workers had already left. After being told to take the excavation slowly, he bulldozed right through the middle of the hill, which indeed held ancient artifacts and may have been Troja (Troy). That is not a simple case of not being able to distinguish one layer from another. He wanted to find treasure. Now the area has been built back up so that tourists can see it, but he made an absolute mess of it.
Thank you Thersites for you awesome videos. Been binge watching your videos now for a week! I wish I could go to a bar near you and give you a drink,, but alas I'm currently in a financial crisis right now, but I'll surely try to be a patreon when things get better! Great job and God bless.
Well, Homer dosent describe Acheans as a unity but as a warband with Agamemnon on the lead as the strongest chief. So he doesnt mention at any point that there were some sort of unity under one king.
You missed Alaksandu of Willusa who was mentioned in a Hittite Treaty, who is very likely to be Paris of Troy. Another interesting detail is that Homer mentions Apollo being the God who was the champion of the Trojans, in the same Hittite Treaty we see the God Āppaliunāš (widely considered a Hittite reflex of an older name for Apollo - Apeljōn).
Of the ancient languages, only Greek and Latin are written with a regular alphabet and have advanced grammar and syntax Therefore, to this day, they read clearly. All other cultures had no alphabet and had syllabic systems such as cuneiform or hieroglyphs whose pronunciation we do not know Their grammar and syntax are still unknown to us and we cannot read the inscriptions of the ancient Hittites today we read with linguistic models whatever we wish
When u say the hittites didnt collapse are u referring to the small sucessor states in syria? I guess I'd call losing 80% of your territory and splitting into a dozen states as a collapse.
@@jordanryan1513 No not really. Well where are they today then? The Hittites were replaced by the Lydians and Phrygians in Anatolia and the rump states in Syria were absorbed by Assyria. By the time of Nebuchadnezzar II the Hittites were long gone. The "Hittites" and the "Hittite empire" are used interchangeably just like the "Assyrians" are used interchangeably with the "Assyrian Empire". But the use of the word collapse implies the Hittites is being used to describe the state as opposed to the people. Ethnicities go extinct, disapear, are wiped out or eliminated, are destroyed but I've never heard of an ethnicity "collapsing". When people talk of the collapse the subject is almost always a system like a state or a business, ethnicities are not systems. The collapse of the Mayan refers to the collapse of the Mayam city states not the people as they still populate the Yucatan. Rome collapsed, the Picts disapearred.
You say we have NO evidence of a UNIFIED Mycenean states. BUT WE DO ! and it comes from the HITTITES who have been writing to the HIGH KING of the ACHEANS ( i.e. Myceneans) regarding their interference in Westerna Anatolia ( ARSAWA) and complaininmg bittely against it. So, there was a kind of unified Mycenean politics and a HIGH KING too. was his name Agamemnon ? this is another problem. But there was a King Aleksandru in WILION ( ILION, TROY) and the second name of Prince PARIS of Troy was Aleksandros ! So the HITTITES archives tend to confirm what HOMER and the tradition is saying. ALL IS NOT MYTHOLOGY.
Mycenaean were ship builders and seafarers and are known to be mercenaries for pharaohs in Egypt and looters of Ilion...And the question is who were the sea-people? The question should be what other people can build ship and had the ability and arms to bring havoc and destruction in those bronze age empires?
@@davidmark225 They were Greeks. At the least you can say they are proto-Greeks. Linear B was decipherable because it was a writing system that was representing the Greek language.
I just speculate, but it could be possible that mycenean greece was somewhat organized like the medieval rus. With serveral princes and a grand prince at their top. This would fit the Iliad with the historical evidence.
You may try to check the Mandala concept of government in mainland Southeast Asia. it is theorized that there are many petty city-states over the centuries but they operate or be compelled to operate under the authority of whoever get to rule over the greatest city of the time. In early Chinese records, they often ignored entirely every polities in the mainland except the rulers of Funan (the first SE Asian state with writing).
@@ThersitestheHistorian TLDR: I think Mycenae city used to be so important and far outreach others that every other greek cities in the region used to obeyed its ruler and proclaimed their descendant from them. Outsiders, using their own country as models, think the rest are all the provinces of that city. I think Mycenae the city and legend shared similarity with mandala polity like in Angkor, Cambodia. After climate changes, and the city infrastructure collapsed into ruins, Cambodia did not produced much contemporary records. The architects and the methods of the giant temples and man-made lakes had been forgotten, and instead replaced by tales of them being built by demi-gods and supernatural beings.The kingdoms of Lao and Siam had semi-legendary royal chronicles claiming some sort of relations to Angkor and the Khmer chronicles still retain the knowledge that the city is huge and the kings are powerful enough that tens of kingdoms asked to be under their protection. In Angkor, evidences of military hegemony are carved over the walls and attested by Chinese records. Mycenae are already legendary ruins (correct me if wrong) when Greek are writing, and the Trojan war is liked those chronicles. The city does not have the same importance as it was hundreds of years ago but its impact are still felt. History are all speculation, anyway, just some are better than other, and we are amateurs.
I read that among the ancestors of the philistines were eteo-cretans. Also Athenians can claim that they never migrated in as much as the greeks where ever they went had children with locals. Those locals over the generations might forget that they were anything other than greeks and would be somewhat correct in saying “we’ve always been here” as half their ancestors had indeed always been there.
Was about to comment but was sure someone else would have noticed that. She was much younger hence the scandal at the time but I wonder what they'd think of the term mistress lol
That is not a "mistress", that's Sophia Schliemann, she believed herself his wife and everyone else did too. It was questionable that his divorce from his first wife was totally legal but he did do the paper work even though his first wife didn't get a say in it. Also, they turned the jewelry she's wearing into the Museum in Berlin. It was lost for a time to the Russians after WWII. It is in the Pushkin museum now.
There’s genetic connections between Mycenaeans, Canaanites and Hittites. There was also some cultural similarities. The name Danaans is in no way a coincidence.
First of all the gold is in the Puskin museum in Russia and Sofia was his wife!! I can't imagine that you didn't do the research before the video. And the linear scripts both A and B is disiphered and reveal a lot about the civilization! Also there have been fractures and seals with both linear and Greek letters that indicates that the linear Scripture was only used by the palace and letters used by the educated reach aristocrats.
Schleimann was not the first excavator at Mycenae. And he had assistance there, which may have restrained his technique. Which is generally regarded as atrociously destructive. How can we trust a source who calls Mrs Schliemsnn a "mistress"?
It feels like there was a single wanax who summoned his basilei. As the word basileus changed meaning, wanax would have been reinterpreted to mean king of kings
@@predraglazic1478 Imperator is a Latin word, which did not originally mean Emperor, but rather denoting authority possessed by kings or magistrates and in the later Republic, successful military commanders. It does not share etymology with the Greek word basileus.
Re Schliemann's greek partner. As some commentators have raised the issue that she was his wife not mistress I had a look on WP. It says this: "The archbishop suggested a young schoolgirl, Sophia Engastromenos, daughter of his cousin. They were married by the archbishop on 23 September 1869. They later had two children, Andromache and Agamemnon Schliemann." So yes she was his wife, but OTOH, there is an element of Jerry Lee Lewis about it. But, hey, it was the 19th century in Greece. And they had children, so it was a real marriage. Anyway, calling the kids Adromache and Agamemnon is a testament to how committed Schliemann was to the cause, IMO.
It would be nice to have a video specifically detailing the political tiers and social structure of Greece at this time. Such as the differences between a Basilus and a Wanax. And the their respective jurisdictions/authority. But not just folks at the top. The whole social ladder down to lowest slaves.
Re the 'palace state'. If I understand the idea correctly, ie the palace of the ruler contained significant stores of excessive valuable goods, to be dispensed as required, that very idea is expressed in a number of episodes in The Odyssey. Including the underlying problem of The Suitors eating and drinking through the Odysseus' wealth of wine and food.
"Henry" was a shameless seeker of the limelight.... The Archeologist who came around, years later were outraged with the destruction he was responsible for....
I can't remember if it was in one of Eric Cline's books or some linguistic analysis of the works of Homer, it was said that saying something lasted "10 years" was a sort of analogy meaning "a long time", like someone saying "it's going to take me decades to save up for a house" meaning a long time rather than an exact period of time or "it took a decade for me to get ready" meaning again something that lasts a long time. If you note the frequency of things that take 10 years in Homer it makes sense or it's just a coincidence that it took Odysseus 10 years to get home and the Trojan war lasted 10 years etc.
There are sieges in ancient history that lasted 10 years or more. Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Tyre for 13 years and was unable to take it, but they surrendered nonetheless. Think of it more as a blockade where the enemy just can't get in. The Achaeans were said to be raiding the countryside and up and down the coast during this 10 year period
Great video! Not sure about the Mycenaeans being the only civilisation to completely collapse though. The Hittites collapsed even more totally. The Greeks came back at least. The Hittites disappeared forever. The peoples referred to as Hittites in the Bible seem to have been a few remnant colonies in the Northern Levant, but the actually Hittites in Anatolia completely disappeared. Their language and culture was completely wiped out. Also, though the Assyrians did kind of survive it, they were pushed right back to a very small rump. It took centuries for them to emerge again with the Neo-Assyrian Empire, which is not that dissimilar to the Greek re-emergence in the Classical era. The Bronze Age collapse was pretty hardcore.
There definitely wasn't any permanent unity, but they almost certainly saw themselves as one people like later Greeks did. I think they could've easily gotten together for giant raids on "barbarians" across the Aegean, and that those raids got amalgamated in memory as tales such as Homer's Iliad.
Sophia was NOT his mistress, he was married to her. She did NOT take the treasure, the nazis got it but it recently turned up in Russia. If you can’t get simple facts correct, it doesn’t exactly spread confidence in the rest of your information. Sadly I’m cutting it short. I am very interested in Ancient Greece and have done a fair amount of reading about it, so this has been a great disappointment.
Fun Fact Schliemann wrote to the then Greek King that the Micean Thron was his to sit on. Schliemann had loved Greek Mythology from childhood on. German sources write he became a successfull businessman to get the funds for his excavations. With all those cards it is a very well prepared report to this culture
Thank you for an excellent presentation. There are so many comments taken from different histories, points of view and often completely biased origins. I appreciate your depth of work on these early ‘Greeks’. People can watch a video today and come up with the different impressions and opinions.
This documentary is terribly inaccurate! Especially the informations concerning Heinrich Schliemann are quite wrong! He didn't allow his mistress to wear jewellery which he found at the site of Troy. The famous picture of the beautiful young woman who wears the bronze age jewellery shows his Greek wife Sophia! And the treasure he found, is not exactly "lost"! It was brought to Berlin, and it was studied by experts and later exhibited in a local museum. When the Soviets marched into Berlin at the end of WWII, the so-called "Treasure of Priamos" was removed and brought to Moscow, where it resurfaced eventually after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Schliemann may not have been the best scientist. But the science of archeology was still in it's infancy. He was a pioneer! Schliemann tried to make his discoveries available for scientific evaluation. And he kept detailed protocols of his activities and his discoveries. His biggest blunder was that he missed Homer's Troy by many centuries because he believed that it must have been in one of the bottom layers, and in his eagerness to identify Homer's Troy he damaged some valuable locations. The "Treasure of Priamos" was manufactured many centuries before the age of the Trojan Wars.l Schliemann admitted later that he had been too hasty. But his identification of the various archeological layers is still valid today! He was one of the first archeologists who conducted an excavation of this magnitude.
This new discovery might just be an Extention of this series bringing it up to Dec. 2019 The University of Cincinnati. "Archaeologists find Bronze Age tombs lined with gold: The family tombs are near the 2015 site of the 'Griffin Warrior,' >> "In Greece"
Re a 10 year seige: Bear in mind that it was only in the 10th year of the broader expedition, that all the Achean forces were supposedly assembled near Troy, for the seige / war. After all, the first year of the 10 is taken up with a failed attempt to actually sail to Troy; they all go home and start again ~ 1 year later. Intervening years were occupied raiding allies of Troy, and elsewhere, for supplies, booty and glory. Agreed that so many being away from home cities for 10 years is far fetched, but certainly the story itself does not depict the seige, such as it was, lasting for 10 years.
I agree that political unity was probably a Homeric myth. Just doesn't seem likely Greeks wanted any singular hegemony even before the Peloponnesian War. Personally I believe Mycenaean Greece began to collapse once it's armies realized they could be successful at plundering abroad, which weakened the palace systems enough till they either fell to citizen uprisings or external invasions. The ones who continued to raid became part of the Sea Peoples, while others returned to Greece possibly to try and preserve/save their wealth, or perhaps just to see if their families survived the fallout.
Actually he went to California during the gold rush and bought gold then went back to Europe and made a fortune selling the gold to the French and English.
Of coarse the Greeks could keep themselves supplied for 10 years at the siege of Troy. They were very close as Mycenaeans were great Sea faring people who traveled all over the Mediterranean and I believe they were in the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea and beyond. In any case they were traders and dropping off supplies would have been doable. I hate when historians put inject their bias opinions. You don’t know, and your point is illogical.
Also consider that the Minoans were not ethnically Greek but likely an indigenous pre Indo-European people. The Greek language and people came from Indo-European peoples migrating into Greece mixing with locals creating the Greeks we know today.
Nick in Vietnam how do you know? You deciphered Cretan ieroglyphs and Linear A together? Same thing they said about the Myceneans until they deciphered linear b and found out it is as Geek as we speak it today. I know your jealous that we Greeks have all the history but life was never fair. Accept it and move on with your life
The genetic evidence that the Hungarians were present according to their origin was published recently. As expected, the Hittites and Minos are included. It can already be read in scientific journals.
Today, modern Greeks still have significant amount of Mycenean DNA traces. Essentially, in short, Mycenean Mainlanders and Minoan Islanders, the mixing of the two, gave us the Greeks, from Ancient to Today, despite Greece being in the crossroads of many different civilizations, we somehow remained largely unchanged. Keep in mind, these aren't my words of wishful thinking as a Greek. Excessive studies have been made and the latest one, a collaboration of 3 different universities from different countries concluded the same. They said, if you want truly Ancient DNA you either go to the Greeks or Iranians, the two peoples who remained mostly the same ever since. Furthermore, Myceneans are called "proto-Greeks". "Proto" is a Greek word which means "first". "First-Greeks". I say this not to be confused with pro-to (prior to Greeks). Myceneans were fully Greeks speaking Greek but writing in Linear B instead of our later, known Alphabet.
"Greex" and "Mycenaean Greece" are oxymoron! - The Latin term "Graecus" was introduced by Romans, but - 2 centuries AFTER the death of Alexander the Great! So, there could've NOT be any "Greex" nor "Mycenaean Greece" whatsoever, in the times when such a term wasn't invented yet.
Sophie (Sophia) Schlieman a, was Mrs Schlieman, b, she only modelled the jewelry which is in Moscow now, c, and probably most importantly she did fund the last part of mid Victorian dig which Schlieman assistant Dorpfeld finish the fourth excavation at Troy which found the nine stages of the development of troy. .
"In this video, I look at the Mycenaean civilization in Greece, which lasted from 1600-1100 BCE." You spend too much time talking about the researchers and precious little on the TOPIC!
Dear misterhallo, translate From italy, scusami io non capisco molto inglese, volevo chiederti se è possibile, se potevi tradurmi due pezzi di terracotta, scritta in caratteri cuneiformi, Assiri o ittiti, molto antichi, parlano di un re forse Agamennone, eventualmente posso mandarti foto via email, fammi sapere, saluti From italy gonare
Re greek unity. at least so far as painted in The Iliad is concerned, I would say that the reason almost all the greek cities were represented with fleets and men in the escapade, was because all their leaders had been suitors of Helen, and therefore made the solemn oath on the horse carcass (ie to Poseidon, I think...), to support the ultimate lucky man. They weren't all there as part of a federation or similar.
Its possible, but the more likely situation was that as central governments collapsed, lower ranking officials in society gained much power in their localities almost everywhere in Greece, making them the most powerful people in the economically diminished and smaller polities for a long period of time, making the term basileus stuck with that meaning.
In broad lines it’s historically correct, but several errors like they couldn’t have been like a federation type thing. But here you make a giant mistake.. : language. Its not like Italy with seperate kingdoms where people the “next kingdom” over couldn’t understand each other, this is where the famous Italian hand gestures come from, this is how they had to add to the communication to understand each other. Mycenaean’s shared not just language, but also architecture, type of warfare, art etc. This heavily indicates homer is right on the money, they were perhaps tribal in terms of seperate cities and towns or villages, but ruled over by 1 king that was clearly respected. I can’t find any real heavy evidence of internal warfare or that it was the cause of the “downfall” of the mycenaean’s. Mostly due to the fact it is not remembered in any form, shape or way, whatever devastated them was so severe and scattered people to such an extent, People literally forgot their own past. Think about what would need to happen, for that to happen.. There are only 2 things really, the “sea people”, which is damn vague because it raises some issues for me. Or some ecological disaster, for which there really isn’t much evidence. Economical changes might be possible, but again, they were at their height, trading all over the Mediterranean, doesn’t make a lot of sense all in all. Homer is a decent source though clearly some topics and situations were heavily embellished, also homer might not even have been 1 single person. What is clear is that the stories he tells are really just a sort of remaster of stories people already were familiar with and is why they essentially treated it like the Bible. Also sidenote, the Egyptians talk about the sea people, how they had a serious hard time defeating them and had to ally themselves with the Hittite. Also.. uh, im not sure if you are aware but you are mispronouncing Ruins, maybe it’s your own take on old English or i don’t know, but being the autist that I am, it triggers the hell out of me. :P
This era was ended by the Dorians. The men from the North came and brought with them changes in the language and iron. All Greece became Doric(Macedonia, Sparta, Corinth etc) except Athens, they remained Ionians. Doric invasion is a great part of Greek tradition and the Doric-Ionic rivalry is in the soul of ancient Greeks, it is so commonly referred in ancient scripts , with the normality we say today republicans and democrats. The rivalry in the new iron age greek world was evident everywhere, from cities relations even to the first colonization (Ionians colonized the east, Asia Minor, the Dorians colonized the west, Italy). There is no serious talk about ancient Greece without the Doric invasion and the division of the greeks into their two main sub-categories( the doric and the ionic). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
Archaeology and genetics cast doubt on a "Dorian Invasion" ever actually happening. The Dorians were probably a splinter group of the Mycenaeans. The Dorians may have, to some extend, been descended from pre-Greek groups that Hellenized. However, there's no evidence of a massive Dorian invasion from the North outside of Mythology.
"Dorian invasion" hahaha stop reading history from wikipedia, that german theory like most of the ancient "greek" teories is a BIG FAT LIE. Macedonians were not "greeks" or "hellens". Different people, with different customs, language, closer to Ilyrians and Thracians than to the southern neighbours that they racialy could not stand eachother (noted by many ancient writers).
@@astrobullivant5908 They are greeks to you, not to ancient writers, and many of modern historians specialized in that part of history. Not to mention modern DNA studies. [1] "Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks." EUGENE BORZA the best historian that actualy studied macedonian archeology [2] On the composition of Alexander's army: "Thus we look in vain for the evidence that Alexander was heavily dependent upon Greeks either in quantity or quality." [3] "The pattern is clear: the trend toward the end of the king's life was to install Macedonians in key positions at the expense of Asians, and to retain very few Greeks." [4] "The conclusion is inescapable: there was a largely ethnic Macedonian imperial administration from beginning to end. Alexander used Greeks in court for cultural reasons, Greek troops (often under Macedonian commanders) for limited tasks and with some discomfort, and Greek commanders and officals for limited duties. Typically, a Greek will enter Alexander's service from an Aegean or Asian city through the practice of some special activity: he could read and write, keep figures or sail, all of which skills the Macedonians required. Some Greeks may have moved on to military service as well. In other words, the role of Greeks in Alexander's service was not much different from what their role had been in the services of Xerxes and the third Darius." [5] On the policy of hellenization with Alexander conquest of Asia and the Greek assertion that he spread Hellenism: "If one wishes to believe that Alexander had a policy of hellenization - as opposed to the incidental and informal spread of Greek culture - the evidence must come from sources other than those presented here. One wonders - archeology aside - where this evidence would be." On the ethnic tension between Macedonians and Greeks, referring to the episode of Eumenes of Cardia and his bid to reach the throne: "And if there were any doubt about the status of Greeks among the Macedonians the tragic career of Eumenes in the immediate Wars of succession should put it to rest. The ancient sources are replete with information about the ethnic prejudice Eumenes suffered from Macedonians." [6] On the issue of whether Alexander and Philip "united" the Greek city-states or conquered them: "In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy of rule over the city-states, a rule resulting from conquest." [7] "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division." [8] On Alexander's dimissal of his Greek allies: "A few days later at Ecbatana, Alexander dismissed his Greek allies, and charade with Greece was over." [9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence." [10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically." [11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece. [12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture." [13] On the Macedonian own tradition and origin: "As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adopted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues." [14] On the Macedonian language: "The main evidence for Macedonian existing as separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great, where the Macedonian tongue is mentioned specifically." [15] "The evidence suggests that Macedonian was distinct from ordinary Attic Greek used as a language of the court and of diplomacy." [16] "The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from Greek dialect." [17] On the Macedonian material culture being different from the Greek: "The most visible expression of material culture thus far recovered are the fourth - and third-century tombs. The architectural form, decoration, and burial goods of these tombs, which now number between sixty and seventy, are unlike what is found in the Greek south, or even in the neighboring independent Greek cities of the north Aegean littoral (exception Amphipolis). Macedonian burial habits suggest different view of the afterlife from the Greeks', even while many of the same gods were worshipped." [18] "Many of the public expressions of worship may have been different." [19] "There is an absence of major public religious monuments from Macedonian sites before the end of the fourth century (another difference from the Greeks)." [20] "Must be cautious both in attributing Greek forms of worship to the Macedonians and in using these forms of worship as a means of confirming Hellenic identity." [21] "In brief, one must conclude that the similarities between some Macedonian and Greek customs and objects are not of themselves proof that Macedonians were a Greek tribe, even though it is undeniable that on certain levels Greek cultural influences eventually became pervasive." [22] "Greeks and Macedonians remained steadfastly antipathetic toward one another (with dislike of a different quality than the mutual long-term hostility shared by some Greek city-states) until well into the Hellenic period, when both the culmination of hellenic acculturation in the north and the rise of Rome made it clear that what these peoples shared took precedence over their historical enmities." [23] "They made their mark not as a tribe of Greek or other Balkan peoples, but as 'Macedonians'. This was understood by foreign protagonists from the time of Darius and Xerxes to the age of Roman generals." [24] "It is time to put the matter of the Macedonians' ethnic identity to rest." [25] "There is other aspect of Alexander's Greek policy, and that is his formal relationship with the Greek cities of Europe and Asia. In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy rule over the city-states, a rule resulting from conquest. As for the island Greeks and the cities of Asia Minor, their status under the reigns of Philip and Alexander has been much debated. Fortunately, for my purposes, the status of these cities, whether as members of Philip's panhellenic league or as independent towns, is not crucial, as they were in fact all treated by Alexander as subjects. Much of the debate on this issue, while interesting and occasionally enlightening, has sometimes obscured a simple reality: Greeks on both sides of the Aegean were subjects to the authority of the king of Macedon." Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander's Court. Makedonika [26] "I have not cited several pieces of anecdotal evidence from the sources on Alexander that establish the continuing tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division. A fuller version of this study will consider these incidents to support my view that Greeks and Macedonians did not get along very well with one another and that this ethnic tension was exploited by the king himself." Makedonika p.158 [27] "What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility."
@@Craterus123 The Dorians were a group of Achaean warriors returning from the Trojan war who were dispossessed after their long absence. They therefore formed their own colonies. This is why Dorian founded cities were so militaristic.
What about Pelasgian Greece? Or the Trypillians? ;) Actually, we may very well **overestimate** the amount of time which had passed between the Trojan War and the Persian Wars, because we base our Near East Iron Age chronology on the Egyptian records, and there are evidence that two dynasties (the 22nd and 23d) reigned congruently in different parts of Egypt (some 23d dynasty tombs older than 22nd dynasty tombs). This could very well erase 125 years from history. :P
@Lyckos The most famous Greek city during the classical age was an Ionian city (Athens), which culturally had more in common with the great Greek cities of the Anatolian coast.
@@enriquelescure9202 You're talking about first inhabitants which were named as Pelazgi,Etruscians,Rascians.They all have one language and one letter.Only one man succeded to desifre this ancient language.He was Svetislav Bilbija,serbian ortodox priest.It's the same letter as the one founded in Vinča on Danube river in Serbia.Simmilar with our cirilic serbian letter.The founders of civilisations before greeks were the serbs.In last one hundred years nearly one milion serbs were cast away from peloponez.The letter which Bilbija translated from a great piece of stone is located in ancient Xantos,Antalya,Turkey.Its still there under protection of Unesco.Before greeks renamed Xantos,it was called and founded as a Sirbin.Together with 22 other cities in Likia.
Around the 15th and 13th centuries BC the Hittites came into conflict with the Egyptians, the Assyrians and the Mitanni over control of the Near East. Eventually the Assyrians were victorious and annexed most of the Hittite lands and it appears that what remained was sacked by Phrygian invaders. Around 1100 BC, during the Bronze Age collapse what remained of the the Hittite Empire broke up to form independent Neo-Hittite city-states which eventually succumbed to the Neo-Assyrian Empire around 800 BC. 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric Cline is a good book about the decline of the Bronze Age civilisations. I hope this is of some help.
Why was the Mycenaen gold era called the Koine Era? When people talk about Koine greek, they're talking about the 4th century bce to the Middle Ages. I thought Koine referred to the post Alexandrian greek world!
"Mycenaean Greece" is oxymoron! - The Latin term "Graecus" was introduced by Romans, but - 2 centuries AFTER the death of Alexander the Great! So, there could've NOT be any "Greex" nor "Mycenaean Greece" whatsoever, in the times when such a term wasn't invented yet.
Sea People Conjugated: I Sea People You (singular) Sea People He/She/It Seas People We Sea People You (plural) Sea People They Sea People And we all fall down!
The fact that slymann start and virtually end our study & understanding of mycenean greece by bombing thousand years of knowledge is ironic. Something really not meant to be found
They didn't just stay on the shore for ten years. Right when you were making sense too. They were basically pirates. The Iliad would come in handy huh? The book even begins with them away from Troy at the 9th year. They also mentioned plundering all over the Peloponnese, and supplies from Lemno's, close to Troy. And like many if not all never fought during the winter, your making everything too complicated when it wasn't. The real reason's we will never know, but there was a great war, Persians and Egyptians even knew of the war. Some say that was the first east west war.
There is evidence of a Mycenaean connection in the pottery excavated at the sites of the biblical "Philistines" if you can disconnect it enough from Biblical Archaeology and the wishful thinking that that entails.
Also the "Greex" and "Mycenaean Greece" are oxymoron! - The Latin term "Graecus" was introduced by Romans, but - 2 centuries AFTER the death of Alexander the Great! So, there could've NOT be any "Greex" nor "Mycenaean Greece" whatsoever, in the times when such a term wasn't invented yet.
What I love about your presentation is I can just listen on the audio hide it so Richard information I don't need to look at my little screen of my phone. This is a very Petty issue but I'm sure you're familiar with the Cyclops in Homer... Therefore why do you pronounce cyclopean walls in a way that sounds like a European with wheels instead of feet... The word Cyclops in cyclopean should be pronounced just that way
The greek woman was sleimam’s wife, nit his mistress, and she didn’t “take” troy’s jewelry. Jewelry were donated by him to berlin’s museum, and were lost during the end of ww2, and eventually were found in an russian museum’s basement, latetly.
Thank you!
Yup, was found in 1996 from what im reading .
@@fetus2280 yes. I missed what happened then. I think the russians kept them. And they sould
@@issith7340 why should the Russians keep treasures that belong in its home cou8ntry ? that would be Turkey. and did the Germans "give" these treasures to the Russians ? No.
@@beecee2205 because the Turks themselves invaded 'Turkey' and have no more right to them than the Russians?
I would just like to point out that the word "wanax" was remembered by Homer. Agamemnon is called "anax".
Anax meant ruler in classical Greece too. Anaxander and Anaxandridas were names of multiple kings of Sparta.
yes it was Wanax and then Anax because the W ( digama) disappeared. ILION was WILION ( WILUSA in Hittite).
And the word palace is Anaktoron in Greek
The people are coming for you
@@djyogurtface5211 Wut?
All of your videos are great, on clouding this one. I would make one observation regarding the Bronze Age Collapse. You leave the impression that most of the Middle East and Mediterranean states were left more or less intact. My impression is that most of them were severely damaged, reduced, or eliminated. The entire trade structure was mostly destroyed. It was a vast catastrophe, with only Egypt and the Babylonians and Assyrians being left with something like an intact state. In any event, thank you again for your excellent work!
I was gonna say the same thing. The Bronze Age Collapse was quite a real catastrophe that did stretch beyond the Greek world. But as you, this was yet another phenomenal video!
What's funny about modern sensibilities is Hector is seen as the greatest hero of the Iliad, but ancient Greeks loved Achilles egoism and greatness. It's really one of the first clues that the greeks had a very different mindset than our own.
according to the work of the Iliad and the Little Iliad, the great hero was Diomedes. He was the favorite hero of the goddess Athena. He killed many important Trojans and wounded the gods Aphrodite, Apollo, Mars. seriously injured the hero Aeneas who was saved with the help of the goddess Aphrodite. He also tried to kill Hector three times, but was saved by the intervention of the god Zeus. When Achilles killed a relative in his anger, Diomedes was not afraid to duel him for revenge. After the old Nestor, he was considered the wisest of the Greeks. Hector was a second-rate hero. Twice he was in danger of being killed by Ajax and was saved by divine intervention. Patroclus was superior to Hector. He would have conquered Troy if the god Apollo had not prevented him. The god Apollo was the one who killed Patroclus and Eumorphos delivers the second fatal blow
Hector merely gave him the finishing blow in an arrogant manner and wanted to throw Patroclus' dead body to the dogs. But Hector was the man who loved his family but not his country because he could have given Helen back later and the war would have ended
Among the heroes, we place Achilles, Diomedes, Ajax in the first class of bravery. Achilles and Ajax were invulnerable except for one point. In the second class was Patroklos. In the third class were Hector, Odysseus and Menelaus.
Achilles was not a role model for the Greeks because he had no self-restraint
@@panagiotis7946 While I agree with you about much, Achilles was very much a role model for ancient Greeks aristocrats. Maybe you could say he falls out of favor around the time Socratic thinking supplanted the Sophists, but even Alexander idolized Achilles. He's not the only one and he's Macedonian educated by Aristotle after the change to Socratic thinking, but I find it perplexing Achilles is held in such high esteem by so many Greek aristocrats in the archaic and classical age. One of my professors said a lot of it has to do with how unashamedly selfish he was. He was denied his war bride so he stopped fighting. His cousin was slain so he resumed fighting. His refusal to participate brought Agamemnon's war machine to a halt. Even Athenians, who hold rhetoric and statecraft over martial prowess often compared Achilles to the Aristos / Aristoi (the best).
Your patience with PowerPoint always impresses me. Edit: Since I watched this video we continue to learn more of this civilization and it wouldn't surprise me if the age of their beginning may even be pushed back. Very interesting.
Rewatching this video has made me realize people are wacko. Some guy is even trying to say Mycenaean GREEKS were ancient Serbians. Which is stupid because Serbians were Slavs. Slavs didn't move there until the 6th century AD invading Byzantine territory. Then some are saying they aren't Greek when this video showed the evidence. The weirdos came out for this one for some reason.
They are flat earther-like nationalists from the Balkans, basically they believe that everything came from them and that they are authocthonous to the region, as well as the creators of the indo european and indigenous languages. They also deny evidence and call it freemasonic or jewish. They are basically conspiracists. I'm afraid that's the result of too much communist propaganda, which was even worse in Albania and North Macedonia (I mean the latter literally exists because they claim a greek tribe!)
One option for a large kernel of truth in the Trojan war could be a conflict not unlike the hundred year between England and France where it actually was a series of smaller conflicts, so not one decades long siege, but a decade long series of battles over the same thing
Great work!
You've got some of this wrong. Schliemann was a treasure hunter, not an archaeologist. Sophia was his second wife, not mistress. Many people at that time and later thought he had the jewelry made and put it there himself, because he owned a very successful gold mine and made his fortune from gold mining. Also, he was alone when he "discovered" the jewelry. Sophia was not there (although he wrote that she was) and the workers had already left. After being told to take the excavation slowly, he bulldozed right through the middle of the hill, which indeed held ancient artifacts and may have been Troja (Troy). That is not a simple case of not being able to distinguish one layer from another. He wanted to find treasure. Now the area has been built back up so that tourists can see it, but he made an absolute mess of it.
The only way to find out if that gold is Mycenaean or not, would be to test it. Get back to me when they "debunk" that would ya?
Thank you Thersites for you awesome videos. Been binge watching your videos now for a week! I wish I could go to a bar near you and give you a drink,, but alas I'm currently in a financial crisis right now, but I'll surely try to be a patreon when things get better! Great job and God bless.
Well, Homer dosent describe Acheans as a unity but as a warband with Agamemnon on the lead as the strongest chief. So he doesnt mention at any point that there were some sort of unity under one king.
You are wrong! The Mycinean civilization was having a Wanax and under him was local kings under his rule! That's why they uswear his call for war!!
an interesting video!
it's funny how you pronounce ruins though (no offence)
a 5 STAR Presentation. WAY enjoyed it and learned helluva LOT. MANY THANKS !!
You missed Alaksandu of Willusa who was mentioned in a Hittite Treaty, who is very likely to be Paris of Troy.
Another interesting detail is that Homer mentions Apollo being the God who was the champion of the Trojans, in the same Hittite Treaty we see the God Āppaliunāš (widely considered a Hittite reflex of an older name for Apollo - Apeljōn).
Of the ancient languages, only Greek and Latin are written with a regular alphabet and have advanced grammar and syntax
Therefore, to this day, they read clearly.
All other cultures had no alphabet and had syllabic systems such as cuneiform or hieroglyphs whose pronunciation we do not know
Their grammar and syntax are still unknown to us and we cannot read the inscriptions of the ancient Hittites today
we read with linguistic models whatever we wish
When u say the hittites didnt collapse are u referring to the small sucessor states in syria? I guess I'd call losing 80% of your territory and splitting into a dozen states as a collapse.
lol
What you are thinking of is the Hittite Empire, The Hittites themselves didnt collapse so he is right lol
@@jordanryan1513 No not really. Well where are they today then? The Hittites were replaced by the Lydians and Phrygians in Anatolia and the rump states in Syria were absorbed by Assyria. By the time of Nebuchadnezzar II the Hittites were long gone. The "Hittites" and the "Hittite empire" are used interchangeably just like the "Assyrians" are used interchangeably with the "Assyrian Empire". But the use of the word collapse implies the Hittites is being used to describe the state as opposed to the people. Ethnicities go extinct, disapear, are wiped out or eliminated, are destroyed but I've never heard of an ethnicity "collapsing". When people talk of the collapse the subject is almost always a system like a state or a business, ethnicities are not systems. The collapse of the Mayan refers to the collapse of the Mayam city states not the people as they still populate the Yucatan. Rome collapsed, the Picts disapearred.
They are known as neo-Hittites if I remember correctly?
@@simonholyoak8869 yep
You say we have NO evidence of a UNIFIED Mycenean states. BUT WE DO ! and it comes from the HITTITES who have been writing to the HIGH KING of the ACHEANS ( i.e. Myceneans) regarding their interference in Westerna Anatolia ( ARSAWA) and complaininmg bittely against it. So, there was a kind of unified Mycenean politics and a HIGH KING too. was his name Agamemnon ? this is another problem. But there was a King Aleksandru in WILION ( ILION, TROY) and the second name of Prince PARIS of Troy was Aleksandros ! So the HITTITES archives tend to confirm what HOMER and the tradition is saying. ALL IS NOT MYTHOLOGY.
Mycenaean were ship builders and seafarers and are known to be mercenaries for pharaohs in Egypt and looters of Ilion...And the question is who were the sea-people? The question should be what other people can build ship and had the ability and arms to bring havoc and destruction in those bronze age empires?
It's not as simplistic as that. There are loads of documentaries and talks about it on CZcams.
The sea people may be the myceneans. And myceneans were not greeks.
Serbs.
@@davidmark225 They Myceneans were Proto-Greeks. Otherwise Linear B would not have been deciphered. It is actually old news too.
@@davidmark225 They were Greeks. At the least you can say they are proto-Greeks. Linear B was decipherable because it was a writing system that was representing the Greek language.
While Linear B has some pictograms, not all deciphered, it is a syllabic language. Chinese might be considered "pictographic."
I think Chinese is an Logoographic language. With each symbol representing a concept but not necessarily pictures from nature.
I just speculate, but it could be possible that mycenean greece was somewhat organized like the medieval rus. With serveral princes and a grand prince at their top.
This would fit the Iliad with the historical evidence.
Maybe. That is an interesting idea that I have never considered before.
You may try to check the Mandala concept of government in mainland Southeast Asia. it is theorized that there are many petty city-states over the centuries but they operate or be compelled to operate under the authority of whoever get to rule over the greatest city of the time. In early Chinese records, they often ignored entirely every polities in the mainland except the rulers of Funan (the first SE Asian state with writing).
@@ThersitestheHistorian
TLDR: I think Mycenae city used to be so important and far outreach others that every other greek cities in the region used to obeyed its ruler and proclaimed their descendant from them. Outsiders, using their own country as models, think the rest are all the provinces of that city.
I think Mycenae the city and legend shared similarity with mandala polity like in Angkor, Cambodia. After climate changes, and the city infrastructure collapsed into ruins, Cambodia did not produced much contemporary records. The architects and the methods of the giant temples and man-made lakes had been forgotten, and instead replaced by tales of them being built by demi-gods and supernatural beings.The kingdoms of Lao and Siam had semi-legendary royal chronicles claiming some sort of relations to Angkor and the Khmer chronicles still retain the knowledge that the city is huge and the kings are powerful enough that tens of kingdoms asked to be under their protection. In Angkor, evidences of military hegemony are carved over the walls and attested by Chinese records. Mycenae are already legendary ruins (correct me if wrong) when Greek are writing, and the Trojan war is liked those chronicles. The city does not have the same importance as it was hundreds of years ago but its impact are still felt. History are all speculation, anyway, just some are better than other, and we are amateurs.
As long as they didn't drink vodka and eat borsch...
I read that among the ancestors of the philistines were eteo-cretans. Also Athenians can claim that they never migrated in as much as the greeks where ever they went had children with locals. Those locals over the generations might forget that they were anything other than greeks and would be somewhat correct in saying “we’ve always been here” as half their ancestors had indeed always been there.
That was Schliemann’s wife, not his mistress and they didn’t steal jewelry. BTW, many things in every museum in the world are stolen
Was about to comment but was sure someone else would have noticed that. She was much younger hence the scandal at the time but I wonder what they'd think of the term mistress lol
It's also not "lost for scholars". The original treasure is currently held in Saint Petersburg while a close replica of it can be seen in Berlin.
That is not a "mistress", that's Sophia Schliemann, she believed herself his wife and everyone else did too. It was questionable that his divorce from his first wife was totally legal but he did do the paper work even though his first wife didn't get a say in it. Also, they turned the jewelry she's wearing into the Museum in Berlin. It was lost for a time to the Russians after WWII. It is in the Pushkin museum now.
There’s genetic connections between Mycenaeans, Canaanites and Hittites.
There was also some cultural similarities.
The name Danaans is in no way a coincidence.
First of all the gold is in the Puskin museum in Russia and Sofia was his wife!! I can't imagine that you didn't do the research before the video. And the linear scripts both A and B is disiphered and reveal a lot about the civilization! Also there have been fractures and seals with both linear and Greek letters that indicates that the linear Scripture was only used by the palace and letters used by the educated reach aristocrats.
I would love to see the onion report you read that said linear A was deciphered
Did Schliemann try to glue the palace back together?
The Lion's Gate in Mycenae really reminded me of one of the gates to Hattusa.
These help so much with my studies! Thank you!
your understanding of human nature is pedestrian. Akhilleus' personality is much more subtle than you're able to grasp.
Schleimann was not the first excavator at Mycenae. And he had assistance there, which may have restrained his technique. Which is generally regarded as atrociously destructive.
How can we trust a source who calls Mrs Schliemsnn a "mistress"?
The jewellery is in a museum in Moscow it was looted by the Russians from Berlin during the Second World War and now resides there it’s not lost.
It feels like there was a single wanax who summoned his basilei. As the word basileus changed meaning, wanax would have been reinterpreted to mean king of kings
Anaxandros (anax- andros- meaining ruler over men) was a popular name among Spartan kings in classical Greece.
The word before ,,Vasilevs,,was ,,Imperator,,!
@@predraglazic1478 Imperator is a Latin word, which did not originally mean Emperor, but rather denoting authority possessed by kings or magistrates and in the later Republic, successful military commanders.
It does not share etymology with the Greek word basileus.
Re Schliemann's greek partner. As some commentators have raised the issue that she was his wife not mistress I had a look on WP. It says this:
"The archbishop suggested a young schoolgirl, Sophia Engastromenos, daughter of his cousin. They were married by the archbishop on 23 September 1869. They later had two children, Andromache and Agamemnon Schliemann."
So yes she was his wife, but OTOH, there is an element of Jerry Lee Lewis about it. But, hey, it was the 19th century in Greece. And they had children, so it was a real marriage. Anyway, calling the kids Adromache and Agamemnon is a testament to how committed Schliemann was to the cause, IMO.
It would be nice to have a video specifically detailing the political tiers and social structure of Greece at this time.
Such as the differences between a Basilus and a Wanax. And the their respective jurisdictions/authority.
But not just folks at the top. The whole social ladder down to lowest slaves.
Re the 'palace state'. If I understand the idea correctly, ie the palace of the ruler contained significant stores of excessive valuable goods, to be dispensed as required, that very idea is expressed in a number of episodes in The Odyssey. Including the underlying problem of The Suitors eating and drinking through the Odysseus' wealth of wine and food.
"Henry" was a shameless seeker of the limelight.... The Archeologist who came around, years later were outraged with the destruction he was responsible for....
I can't remember if it was in one of Eric Cline's books or some linguistic analysis of the works of Homer, it was said that saying something lasted "10 years" was a sort of analogy meaning "a long time", like someone saying "it's going to take me decades to save up for a house" meaning a long time rather than an exact period of time or "it took a decade for me to get ready" meaning again something that lasts a long time. If you note the frequency of things that take 10 years in Homer it makes sense or it's just a coincidence that it took Odysseus 10 years to get home and the Trojan war lasted 10 years etc.
There are sieges in ancient history that lasted 10 years or more. Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Tyre for 13 years and was unable to take it, but they surrendered nonetheless.
Think of it more as a blockade where the enemy just can't get in. The Achaeans were said to be raiding the countryside and up and down the coast during this 10 year period
Great video! Not sure about the Mycenaeans being the only civilisation to completely collapse though. The Hittites collapsed even more totally. The Greeks came back at least. The Hittites disappeared forever. The peoples referred to as Hittites in the Bible seem to have been a few remnant colonies in the Northern Levant, but the actually Hittites in Anatolia completely disappeared. Their language and culture was completely wiped out. Also, though the Assyrians did kind of survive it, they were pushed right back to a very small rump. It took centuries for them to emerge again with the Neo-Assyrian Empire, which is not that dissimilar to the Greek re-emergence in the Classical era. The Bronze Age collapse was pretty hardcore.
There definitely wasn't any permanent unity, but they almost certainly saw themselves as one people like later Greeks did. I think they could've easily gotten together for giant raids on "barbarians" across the Aegean, and that those raids got amalgamated in memory as tales such as Homer's Iliad.
Sophia was NOT his mistress, he was married to her.
She did NOT take the treasure, the nazis got it but it recently turned up in Russia.
If you can’t get simple facts correct, it doesn’t exactly spread confidence in the rest of your information.
Sadly I’m cutting it short.
I am very interested in Ancient Greece and have done a fair amount of reading about it, so this has been a great disappointment.
Hello, can you grant me the names of the software you are using for these videos? I have to prepare a lecture just like this on record, thank you.
Just PowerPoint, mostly the 2013 version but I sometimes use the Office 365 version as well. Both of them allow you to record audio.
Fun Fact Schliemann wrote to the then Greek King that the Micean Thron was his to sit on.
Schliemann had loved Greek Mythology from childhood on. German sources write he became a successfull businessman to get the funds for his excavations.
With all those cards it is a very well prepared report to this culture
Thank you for an excellent presentation. There are so many comments taken from different histories, points of view and often completely biased origins. I appreciate your depth of work on these early ‘Greeks’. People can watch a video today and come up with the different impressions and opinions.
And the golden mask is that of Filippos father of Alexander, Macedonian Kingdom and era. Mycenaean and Macedonian have thousands of year between them.
This documentary is terribly inaccurate! Especially the informations concerning Heinrich Schliemann are quite wrong! He didn't allow his mistress to wear jewellery which he found at the site of Troy. The famous picture of the beautiful young woman who wears the bronze age jewellery shows his Greek wife Sophia! And the treasure he found, is not exactly "lost"! It was brought to Berlin, and it was studied by experts and later exhibited in a local museum. When the Soviets marched into Berlin at the end of WWII, the so-called "Treasure of Priamos" was removed and brought to Moscow, where it resurfaced eventually after the fall of the Iron Curtain.
Schliemann may not have been the best scientist. But the science of archeology was still in it's infancy. He was a pioneer! Schliemann tried to make his discoveries available for scientific evaluation. And he kept detailed protocols of his activities and his discoveries. His biggest blunder was that he missed Homer's Troy by many centuries because he believed that it must have been in one of the bottom layers, and in his eagerness to identify Homer's Troy he damaged some valuable locations. The "Treasure of Priamos" was manufactured many centuries before the age of the Trojan Wars.l Schliemann admitted later that he had been too hasty. But his identification of the various archeological layers is still valid today! He was one of the first archeologists who conducted an excavation of this magnitude.
Very fair intro to Schliemann
great presentation i learned alot
This new discovery might just be an Extention of this series bringing it up to Dec. 2019
The University of Cincinnati. "Archaeologists find Bronze Age tombs lined with gold: The family tombs are near the 2015 site of the 'Griffin Warrior,' >> "In Greece"
Re a 10 year seige: Bear in mind that it was only in the 10th year of the broader expedition, that all the Achean forces were supposedly assembled near Troy, for the seige / war. After all, the first year of the 10 is taken up with a failed attempt to actually sail to Troy; they all go home and start again ~ 1 year later. Intervening years were occupied raiding allies of Troy, and elsewhere, for supplies, booty and glory. Agreed that so many being away from home cities for 10 years is far fetched, but certainly the story itself does not depict the seige, such as it was, lasting for 10 years.
I really enjoyed this video :)
Very cool thanks for posting
Schlieman is nothing but legends! Signed, Achilles.
Good bless USA - ALBANIEN AND GREAT BRITAIN PEOPLE,,,,.
I agree that political unity was probably a Homeric myth. Just doesn't seem likely Greeks wanted any singular hegemony even before the Peloponnesian War.
Personally I believe Mycenaean Greece began to collapse once it's armies realized they could be successful at plundering abroad, which weakened the palace systems enough till they either fell to citizen uprisings or external invasions. The ones who continued to raid became part of the Sea Peoples, while others returned to Greece possibly to try and preserve/save their wealth, or perhaps just to see if their families survived the fallout.
The political unity was prolly accurate, whether they wanted a single hegemon or not.
Actually he went to California during the gold rush and bought gold then went back to Europe and made a fortune selling the gold to the French and English.
Of coarse the Greeks could keep themselves supplied for 10 years at the siege of Troy. They were very close as Mycenaeans were great Sea faring people who traveled all over the Mediterranean and I believe they were in the Red Sea and the Arabian Sea and beyond. In any case they were traders and dropping off supplies would have been doable. I hate when historians put inject their bias opinions. You don’t know, and your point is illogical.
Around 21 min mark - golden axe reference. TOP KEK!
Golden Axe 2 reference. Nice!
Great video
So Perseus founded Mycenae with Athanae's advice? Or no, because he did the thing with Europa?
And the Minotar was their tribute process?
I'm not sure.
Wanax was used in Homers Iliad
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anax
I thought the first civilization in Greece were the minoans.
Yes, It is true if you consider the island of Crete as a part of Greece. Mycenaen Civilization was the first civilization on Greek mainland.
Also consider that the Minoans were not ethnically Greek but likely an indigenous pre Indo-European people. The Greek language and people came from Indo-European peoples migrating into Greece mixing with locals creating the Greeks we know today.
The minoans didnt speak greek tho.
Nick in Vietnam how do you know? You deciphered Cretan ieroglyphs and Linear A together? Same thing they said about the Myceneans until they deciphered linear b and found out it is as Geek as we speak it today. I know your jealous that we Greeks have all the history but life was never fair. Accept it and move on with your life
@@lianko2000 imagiine taking credit for stuff you didnt do and then calling people jealous of you
The genetic evidence that the Hungarians were present according to their origin was published recently. As expected, the Hittites and Minos are included. It can already be read in scientific journals.
I 🤔 I heard you get a text message 😆 bloody good though bud can't get enough
Today, modern Greeks still have significant amount of Mycenean DNA traces. Essentially, in short, Mycenean Mainlanders and Minoan Islanders, the mixing of the two, gave us the Greeks, from Ancient to Today, despite Greece being in the crossroads of many different civilizations, we somehow remained largely unchanged. Keep in mind, these aren't my words of wishful thinking as a Greek. Excessive studies have been made and the latest one, a collaboration of 3 different universities from different countries concluded the same. They said, if you want truly Ancient DNA you either go to the Greeks or Iranians, the two peoples who remained mostly the same ever since. Furthermore, Myceneans are called "proto-Greeks". "Proto" is a Greek word which means "first". "First-Greeks". I say this not to be confused with pro-to (prior to Greeks). Myceneans were fully Greeks speaking Greek but writing in Linear B instead of our later, known Alphabet.
"Greex" and "Mycenaean Greece" are oxymoron! - The Latin term "Graecus" was introduced by Romans, but - 2 centuries AFTER the death of Alexander the Great!
So, there could've NOT be any "Greex" nor "Mycenaean Greece" whatsoever, in the times when such a term wasn't invented yet.
Sophie (Sophia) Schlieman a, was Mrs Schlieman, b, she only modelled the jewelry which is in Moscow now, c, and probably most importantly she did fund the last part of mid Victorian dig which Schlieman assistant Dorpfeld finish the fourth excavation at Troy which found the nine stages of the development of troy. .
❤
Excessive interruptions with ads. Its not very good, just a rehash of things everyone knows.
"In this video, I look at the Mycenaean civilization in Greece, which lasted from 1600-1100 BCE." You spend too much time talking about the researchers and precious little on the TOPIC!
Have you considered that maybe pigs WERE the sea people?
Dear misterhallo, translate From italy, scusami io non capisco molto inglese, volevo chiederti se è possibile, se potevi tradurmi due pezzi di terracotta, scritta in caratteri cuneiformi, Assiri o ittiti, molto antichi, parlano di un re forse Agamennone, eventualmente posso mandarti foto via email, fammi sapere, saluti From italy gonare
4:15 Did the Myceneans end the late bronze age global trade? I suspect they were the Sea Peoples!
What about the sea people??
What's the E in BCE?
Execellent, by rhe way😊
the way English/Americans pronounce Hellenic words is excruciating
I love sackritees
Re greek unity. at least so far as painted in The Iliad is concerned, I would say that the reason almost all the greek cities were represented with fleets and men in the escapade, was because all their leaders had been suitors of Helen, and therefore made the solemn oath on the horse carcass (ie to Poseidon, I think...), to support the ultimate lucky man. They weren't all there as part of a federation or similar.
Subscribed.
I wonder if at some point of the dark ages a basileus raised to power long enough to reinvent the word, same as Caesar
Its possible, but the more likely situation was that as central governments collapsed, lower ranking officials in society gained much power in their localities almost everywhere in Greece, making them the most powerful people in the economically diminished and smaller polities for a long period of time, making the term basileus stuck with that meaning.
Sea Peoples: Highschool graduates that had nowhere else to go.
In broad lines it’s historically correct, but several errors like they couldn’t have been like a federation type thing.
But here you make a giant mistake.. : language.
Its not like Italy with seperate kingdoms where people the “next kingdom” over couldn’t understand each other, this is where the famous Italian hand gestures come from, this is how they had to add to the communication to understand each other.
Mycenaean’s shared not just language, but also architecture, type of warfare, art etc.
This heavily indicates homer is right on the money, they were perhaps tribal in terms of seperate cities and towns or villages, but ruled over by 1 king that was clearly respected.
I can’t find any real heavy evidence of internal warfare or that it was the cause of the “downfall” of the mycenaean’s.
Mostly due to the fact it is not remembered in any form, shape or way, whatever devastated them was so severe and scattered people to such an extent, People literally forgot their own past.
Think about what would need to happen, for that to happen..
There are only 2 things really, the “sea people”, which is damn vague because it raises some issues for me.
Or some ecological disaster, for which there really isn’t much evidence.
Economical changes might be possible, but again, they were at their height, trading all over the Mediterranean, doesn’t make a lot of sense all in all.
Homer is a decent source though clearly some topics and situations were heavily embellished, also homer might not even have been 1 single person.
What is clear is that the stories he tells are really just a sort of remaster of stories people already were familiar with and is why they essentially treated it like the Bible.
Also sidenote, the Egyptians talk about the sea people, how they had a serious hard time defeating them and had to ally themselves with the Hittite.
Also.. uh, im not sure if you are aware but you are mispronouncing Ruins, maybe it’s your own take on old English or i don’t know, but being the autist that I am, it triggers the hell out of me. :P
Lot of knowledge.
This era was ended by the Dorians. The men from the North came and brought with them changes in the language and iron. All Greece became Doric(Macedonia, Sparta, Corinth etc) except Athens, they remained Ionians. Doric invasion is a great part of Greek tradition and the Doric-Ionic rivalry is in the soul of ancient Greeks, it is so commonly referred in ancient scripts , with the normality we say today republicans and democrats. The rivalry in the new iron age greek world was evident everywhere, from cities relations even to the first colonization (Ionians colonized the east, Asia Minor, the Dorians colonized the west, Italy). There is no serious talk about ancient Greece without the Doric invasion and the division of the greeks into their two main sub-categories( the doric and the ionic). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
Archaeology and genetics cast doubt on a "Dorian Invasion" ever actually happening. The Dorians were probably a splinter group of the Mycenaeans. The Dorians may have, to some extend, been descended from pre-Greek groups that Hellenized. However, there's no evidence of a massive Dorian invasion from the North outside of Mythology.
"Dorian invasion" hahaha stop reading history from wikipedia, that german theory like most of the ancient "greek" teories is a BIG FAT LIE. Macedonians were not "greeks" or "hellens". Different people, with different customs, language, closer to Ilyrians and Thracians than to the southern neighbours that they racialy could not stand eachother (noted by many ancient writers).
@@Craterus123 Macedonians were Greeks, but there probably wasn't any sort of Dorian "invasion" from outside of Greece.
@@astrobullivant5908 They are greeks to you, not to ancient writers, and many of modern historians specialized in that part of history.
Not to mention modern DNA studies.
[1] "Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks."
EUGENE BORZA the best historian that actualy studied macedonian archeology
[2] On the composition of Alexander's army: "Thus we look in vain for the evidence that Alexander was heavily dependent upon Greeks either in quantity or quality."
[3] "The pattern is clear: the trend toward the end of the king's life was to install Macedonians in key positions at the expense of Asians, and to retain very few Greeks."
[4] "The conclusion is inescapable: there was a largely ethnic Macedonian imperial administration from beginning to end. Alexander used Greeks in court for cultural reasons, Greek troops (often under Macedonian commanders) for limited tasks and with some discomfort, and Greek commanders and officals for limited duties. Typically, a Greek will enter Alexander's service from an Aegean or Asian city through the practice of some special activity: he could read and write, keep figures or sail, all of which skills the Macedonians required. Some Greeks may have moved on to military service as well. In other words, the role of Greeks in Alexander's service was not much different from what their role had been in the services of Xerxes and the third Darius."
[5] On the policy of hellenization with Alexander conquest of Asia and the Greek assertion that he spread Hellenism: "If one wishes to believe that Alexander had a policy of hellenization - as opposed to the incidental and informal spread of Greek culture - the evidence must come from sources other than those presented here. One wonders - archeology aside - where this evidence would be." On the ethnic tension between Macedonians and Greeks, referring to the episode of Eumenes of Cardia and his bid to reach the throne: "And if there were any doubt about the status of Greeks among the Macedonians the tragic career of Eumenes in the immediate Wars of succession should put it to rest. The ancient sources are replete with information about the ethnic prejudice Eumenes suffered from Macedonians."
[6] On the issue of whether Alexander and Philip "united" the Greek city-states or conquered them: "In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy of rule over the city-states, a rule resulting from conquest."
[7] "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division."
[8] On Alexander's dimissal of his Greek allies: "A few days later at Ecbatana, Alexander dismissed his Greek allies, and charade with Greece was over."
[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."
[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."
[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.
[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."
[13] On the Macedonian own tradition and origin: "As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adopted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."
[14] On the Macedonian language: "The main evidence for Macedonian existing as separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great, where the Macedonian tongue is mentioned specifically."
[15] "The evidence suggests that Macedonian was distinct from ordinary Attic Greek used as a language of the court and of diplomacy."
[16] "The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from Greek dialect."
[17] On the Macedonian material culture being different from the Greek: "The most visible expression of material culture thus far recovered are the fourth - and third-century tombs. The architectural form, decoration, and burial goods of these tombs, which now number between sixty and seventy, are unlike what is found in the Greek south, or even in the neighboring independent Greek cities of the north Aegean littoral (exception Amphipolis). Macedonian burial habits suggest different view of the afterlife from the Greeks', even while many of the same gods were worshipped."
[18] "Many of the public expressions of worship may have been different."
[19] "There is an absence of major public religious monuments from Macedonian sites before the end of the fourth century (another difference from the Greeks)."
[20] "Must be cautious both in attributing Greek forms of worship to the Macedonians and in using these forms of worship as a means of confirming Hellenic identity."
[21] "In brief, one must conclude that the similarities between some Macedonian and Greek customs and objects are not of themselves proof that Macedonians were a Greek tribe, even though it is undeniable that on certain levels Greek cultural influences eventually became pervasive."
[22] "Greeks and Macedonians remained steadfastly antipathetic toward one another (with dislike of a different quality than the mutual long-term hostility shared by some Greek city-states) until well into the Hellenic period, when both the culmination of hellenic acculturation in the north and the rise of Rome made it clear that what these peoples shared took precedence over their historical enmities."
[23] "They made their mark not as a tribe of Greek or other Balkan peoples, but as 'Macedonians'. This was understood by foreign protagonists from the time of Darius and Xerxes to the age of Roman generals."
[24] "It is time to put the matter of the Macedonians' ethnic identity to rest."
[25] "There is other aspect of Alexander's Greek policy, and that is his formal relationship with the Greek cities of Europe and Asia. In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy rule over the city-states, a rule resulting from conquest. As for the island Greeks and the cities of Asia Minor, their status under the reigns of Philip and Alexander has been much debated. Fortunately, for my purposes, the status of these cities, whether as members of Philip's panhellenic league or as independent towns, is not crucial, as they were in fact all treated by Alexander as subjects. Much of the debate on this issue, while interesting and occasionally enlightening, has sometimes obscured a simple reality: Greeks on both sides of the Aegean were subjects to the authority of the king of Macedon." Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander's Court. Makedonika
[26] "I have not cited several pieces of anecdotal evidence from the sources on Alexander that establish the continuing tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division. A fuller version of this study will consider these incidents to support my view that Greeks and Macedonians did not get along very well with one another and that this ethnic tension was exploited by the king himself." Makedonika p.158
[27] "What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility."
@@Craterus123 The Dorians were a group of Achaean warriors returning from the Trojan war who were dispossessed after their long absence. They therefore formed their own colonies. This is why Dorian founded cities were so militaristic.
What about Pelasgian Greece? Or the Trypillians? ;)
Actually, we may very well **overestimate** the amount of time which had passed between the Trojan War and the Persian Wars, because we base our Near East Iron Age chronology on the Egyptian records, and there are evidence that two dynasties (the 22nd and 23d) reigned congruently in different parts of Egypt (some 23d dynasty tombs older than 22nd dynasty tombs). This could very well erase 125 years from history. :P
@Lyckos The most famous Greek city during the classical age was an Ionian city (Athens), which culturally had more in common with the great Greek cities of the Anatolian coast.
@@enriquelescure9202 You're talking about first inhabitants which were named as Pelazgi,Etruscians,Rascians.They all have one language and one letter.Only one man succeded to desifre this ancient language.He was Svetislav Bilbija,serbian ortodox priest.It's the same letter as the one founded in Vinča on Danube river in Serbia.Simmilar with our cirilic serbian letter.The founders of civilisations before greeks were the serbs.In last one hundred years nearly one milion serbs were cast away from peloponez.The letter which Bilbija translated from a great piece of stone is located in ancient Xantos,Antalya,Turkey.Its still there under protection of Unesco.Before greeks renamed Xantos,it was called and founded as a Sirbin.Together with 22 other cities in Likia.
@@predraglazic1478 Isn't Vinca like 6000 years old? And isn't Serbian an Indo-European language?
@@enriquelescure9202 and Cyrillic was developed by two monks in Late Antiquity...
@@predraglazic1478 The Etruscans lived in Italy. And they were most likely part of the Sea Peoples so this was nonsensical.
I thought the Hittites collapsed too?
Around the 15th and 13th centuries BC the Hittites came into conflict with the Egyptians, the Assyrians and the Mitanni over control of the Near East. Eventually the Assyrians were victorious and annexed most of the Hittite lands and it appears that what remained was sacked by Phrygian invaders. Around 1100 BC, during the Bronze Age collapse what remained of the the Hittite Empire broke up to form independent Neo-Hittite city-states which eventually succumbed to the Neo-Assyrian Empire around 800 BC. 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric Cline is a good book about the decline of the Bronze Age civilisations. I hope this is of some help.
@@danielroberts1987 I hope you enjoy the book mate!!
@@grendelgrendelsson5493 excellent summary.
@@charlesfenwick6554 Thank you very much!
Why was the Mycenaen gold era called the Koine Era? When people talk about Koine greek, they're talking about the 4th century bce to the Middle Ages. I thought Koine referred to the post Alexandrian greek world!
"Mycenaean Greece" is oxymoron! - The Latin term "Graecus" was introduced by Romans, but - 2 centuries AFTER the death of Alexander the Great!
So, there could've NOT be any "Greex" nor "Mycenaean Greece" whatsoever, in the times when such a term wasn't invented yet.
Sorry for the voice to text errors it was supposed to say rich in information
Sea People Conjugated:
I Sea People
You (singular) Sea People
He/She/It Seas People
We Sea People
You (plural) Sea People
They Sea People
And we all fall down!
The thumbnail figure is Melian from the computer game Might and Magic 6! He was "The Oracle", a computer left by the ancients.
The fact that slymann start and virtually end our study & understanding of mycenean greece by bombing thousand years of knowledge is ironic. Something really not meant to be found
that gold mask we have the same exact mask in arabia
They didn't just stay on the shore for ten years. Right when you were making sense too. They were basically pirates. The Iliad would come in handy huh? The book even begins with them away from Troy at the 9th year. They also mentioned plundering all over the Peloponnese, and supplies from Lemno's, close to Troy. And like many if not all never fought during the winter, your making everything too complicated when it wasn't. The real reason's we will never know, but there was a great war, Persians and Egyptians even knew of the war. Some say that was the first east west war.
Persians knew of the Trojan war? Do you have a source for that? Would like to check that out more.
The war happened because Greeks wanted the control of Hellespont and the trade of Crimea’s gold. Till then only Troy had it.
There is evidence of a Mycenaean connection in the pottery excavated at the sites of the biblical "Philistines" if you can disconnect it enough from Biblical Archaeology and the wishful thinking that that entails.
Also the "Greex" and "Mycenaean Greece" are oxymoron! - The Latin term "Graecus" was introduced by Romans, but - 2 centuries AFTER the death of Alexander the Great!
So, there could've NOT be any "Greex" nor "Mycenaean Greece" whatsoever, in the times when such a term wasn't invented yet.
palace state huh. id never heard that kind of state before
Did you happen to yawn there?
What I love about your presentation is I can just listen on the audio hide it so Richard information I don't need to look at my little screen of my phone. This is a very Petty issue but I'm sure you're familiar with the Cyclops in Homer... Therefore why do you pronounce cyclopean walls in a way that sounds like a European with wheels instead of feet... The word Cyclops in cyclopean should be pronounced just that way
And you know this how exactly? Also you need grammarly.
Who is this Richard you speak of ?
Am i having a stroke?
@@calebr908 if you have to ask..I'm thinking he just didn't turn off the autocorrect lol
@@fetus2280 you dont know of richard information? Classless.
Great lecture ruined by commercialism.
Walls never keep nomads out for long.
They remind me of L.A street gangs.Some have numbers more than others.Its just really hard to overtake a people that know their land.
Where do you think the Sea Peoples came from?
Michael Cline the sea
Detroit
From right next to the Bee People.
They were early vikings from scandinavia.
@@callez2402 definitely not
It looks like Assassins Creed