Comparing Fords 2023 High Output Turbocharger To Its Little Brother... Worth $100 Per HP?
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- čas přidán 3. 12. 2023
- Nick Priegnitz, owner of Calibrated Power/Duramaxtuner, is back with another episode of Diesel Insights! This week he brings to you a High Output turbo from a 2023 6.7L Powerstroke. The High Output model is new to the 2023 6.7L Powerstroke models. Nick breaks down the internals and specs of this 2023 High Output turbo and compares it to a standard output model on years prior. How much different is it? What's with this new compressor cover? Is this model worth the $2,500 extra? Nick gives you every little detail you'd want to know right here!
Head over to our website to check out our Powerstroke upgrades and more: duramaxtuner.com/diesel-tunin... - Auta a dopravní prostředky
There’s always a trade off fellas. The balance between longevity and performance has always been the struggle and everything we engineer to get that balance closer cost money. Great video. Thanks.
When it comes to thermodynamics one of the most important rules to consider is that cooling the air at the point where it’s actually being heated is the best chance you have to control the effect of the boost.
It’s a simple as that. It’s a lot more expensive to do this as it requires a lot of precision machining and additional complexity, but cooling the air at its earliest point where it’s being heated is a great idea.
It’s also worth noting that the stated 25 horsepower and 120 foot pounds of torque is incorrect.
It’s 25 horses and 150 foot pounds of torque.
The cooled compressor housing is all about keeping the tolerance of the air gap between the wheel and housing consistent, so they can use a tighter overall tolerance and not have the heat expansion of the cover cause any issues with the air gap. The efficiency of the turbocharger increases significantly so the compressor doesn't increase in size but the air density increases a lot due to the efficiency of the unit
@diesel-technology5507 Great theory! I will try to check compare the tolerances between the compressor wheel and housing and let you know what we find.
@@DuramaxtunerI'm came to say the same thing. It isn't a theory.
This is definitely the reason, At the end of the day efficiency is what its all about.
Protecting tolerances has to be it, that air isnt in there long enough and the sink area not big enough to be an effective heat transfer.
@5:34 you don't know for sure why Ford put engine coolant through the turbo compressor cover! And yet, you keep saying there are no differences between the standard turbo and HO turbo except for the coolant circuit!
Pretty obvious you do not understand the engineering that went into the HO turbo! If you don't understand it, how can you criticize it??!!!
Just fyi - the coolant in the compressor cover is not for cooling the charge air! It is for cooling the bearings!
Excellent video! I learned a lot. Thank you.
That was a super interesting video. Thanks for this for sure.
Good explanation and theory! Thank you.
I've been wondering what the differences was between the SO and HO. Thanks for putting a great informative video together with all the numbers! That's the stuff I like to know!
You missed the part where on the high output they now have stainless steel exhaust manifold and stainless steel bolts, bolting at manifold to the engine.
Not only is the turbo housing code, but the lines are cooled
Noted, thanks!
Silber turbo has been using a liquid cooled compressor housing on turbo snowmobile kits for years. It makes a huge difference on charge air temps. To the point on a long hill climb being able to hold your hand on the compressor housing vs being burned. My 23 ho will definitely out pull my 22 i traded it in for. Both pulling the same 40ft fifth wheel.
Great application of prior knowledge @jakeshupe79 and thank you for your insight on the 2023 HO Powertstroke compared to the 2022 SO as well.
Look up “Chester’s Extreme Diesel at Monroe Civic Center.” The man didn’t finish high school, but one of his upgrades is adding a cooling system to the turbos since ~2005 & now I understand why! He can’t juice up the aluminum frame 3/4 tons or they bend under heavy acceleration. He just reworked my father in law’s Silverado 1500 3.0L diesel engine, powertrain & suspension so it can pull 35k+ lbs around the farm with zero problems. Cooled turbos were installed along with his other typical “upgrades.”
I traded my 21 ram 3500 HO that was tuned by you guys. Even when a tune, the truck just wasnt fun to drive a felt like a semi. Im not gonna lie, I ram my 15 ram 3500 ho and my 21 on the 100hp tunes while towing but you can definitely tell the truck pulled power pulling up the passes on I70 in CO. My 21 would easily get to 250 degrees. After three rams and ram not doing anything in 24, I decided to buy a 23 ford f350 lariat ultimate HO. Im blown away at the power of this truck, I pulled the same passed with the tuck with about 6k miles on it, doing the speed limit, for the most part. My ram couldn't do that with the tuns. I'm so happy with this 23. Fuel milage is great and truck feels solid. Highest temps I saw pulling was 210 deg. This is the first truck I've own where I'm thinking, this doesn't need a tune.. But it's always tempting. Is there gonna be turning for the 23s? I hear with tuning, the bottom end bearings go bad on the ps 6.7..hammering the bearing?
@cnetate Yes we do have tuning for the 2023 HO Powerstroke in the works. What the difference in power between the standard output tune and the new high output tune will be, we are not sure of yet. More testing still needs to be done. We haven't heard anything about bearings going bad in the 6.7Ls.
I believe it's because certain tunes have up the feeling down low in the RPM range and that increased cylinder pressure let's say below 1,600 RPM maybe higher is very hard on the rods and crank and it wipes the bearings out it's not as much as an issue in the inline 6 because of the strength and the design but it is in the V8 design not all engines are created equal though in the V8 world so each one has a certain limit
cnetate something sounds funny about this comparison
The coolant jacket helps keep the compressor wheel blade tip clearance as tight as possible. They use the technology on industrial gas turbines, but they do it on the turbine side to minimize efficiency losses. Aluminum expands greater than steel when heated, so your compressor case will grow and you'll end up with compressor losses when it gets hot. They cool it to keep it tight.
I have both ho and regular there is quite a difference between the two power wise loaded and unloaded.
@Ebuck41 Thank you for sharing your experience!
Tune
If the manifold and studs are stainless steel, that is a long time comin!
My opinion, my 08 Ford 6.4 had a huge conventional air to air intercooler but my subsequent 6.7's had the small brick air to water. I think for tuning and control consistency Ford just gave up and decided to tune around an air charge that was hotter but had less temperature variation overall. I agree with your cooling passage design intent extrapolation.
@Mr42960 Totally agree with your logic here. Lots of modern cars run engine coolant through the intake throttle body for this same reason.
Which coolant source is going to the compressor housing? Coolant from the engine coolant system or from the low temperature cooling system?
All Ford fid was listen to Gale Banks, want mor power increase the sir density, basically anything you can do to cool the air will make or have the ability to make more power
I apologize, tried to text while stopped at a light. Typos did........more........air
Cooling the air during compression should increase volumetric efficiency and decrease the hp demand on the compression wheel and provide more mass flow into the engine with the same energy into the turbo as well as other benefits such as less coking of oil at higher pressures and temperatures that would be present without the cooling. Mass flow is what matters. Lower temp is more mass at same volume flow or acfm.
Thank you that was well said. I am getting ready to buy a 2024 F450. I think it is worth the extra $2500.
You won't be disappointed. Maybe down the road, we can tune it for ya!
Great video and very helpful. I talked about this is one of my videos also. I know Ford also ran higher gauge stainless up pipes on the HO motor to help with longer term durability. And I also believe some of the HO truck variants get a larger rear axle. To confirm are you saying you only see 125ft lbs of torque more at 1100rpm and it doesn’t carry that difference through the rpm band?
@barry1me The 125 additional ft-lbs of torque at 1100RPM is a stat that Ford provided us with. We have not done our own independent testing to prove or disprove this. However, since this is the only place in the RMP range they gave us a measurement from I think it's mildly safe to assume that 1100 RPM is where you will see the largest increase and it will likely taper off from there slightly.
Good to know, I had a 2020 SO, and we compared a 22 SO to my 23 HO and we could tell that the 23 HO felt noticably stronger towing 15k lb wise on the highway pulling some slight grade. Also havent noticed any downside to fuel economy either. The HO motor seems to be a monster, I hope they are durable.@@Duramaxtuner
@@barrthom603 From everything we have seen they should be as reliable if not more than the SO 6.7L which has been pretty reliable for us so far.
I heard the HO engines go through way more DEF, is that true and if so why?
Great video !!!!
@scuddrunner1 Through our experience we have not seen any increase in DEF consumption between the 2022 that we used to own and the 2023 that we currently own. Both averaged around 4900miles per tank of DEF.
I would like a dedicated radiator and coolant system for a compressor face for my stock and S475 please.
@JeremyCricket That would certainly be an interesting setup to test out. The question is how much the improvement to cooling would affect your air mass versus the cost of plumbing a completely separate system. Would love to see someone test this out though.
What would it take to upgrade to high output. Is it just a turbo swap. I heard that the high output was water cooled vs the base 6.7 was not.
The next question is... Can you use that to your advantage to and create more power with the tunes you are developing for the 23+ trucks?
@revrdr600ho Haha, great minds think alike! We were just discussing this amongst staff today. We will let you know as soon as we have some more insights.
What about cab & chassis trucks? Same turbos? I know 11-16 17-19 all had different turbos compared to pickups. Hows that relate to the commercial truck side?
@taylorjaniski7574 All Cab and Chassis models are de-rated from the factory. Which means that the factory tunes them to make less power in order to ensure longevity of the engine. This however, means that a HO option for Cab & Chassis trucks would be completely unnecessary. since it would be de-rated to below the power of the SO model. So to answer your question, none of the info in this video will be relevant to Cab & Chassis models since all of them will come with the SO model from the factory.
I have been wondering about this. What about the injectors? I’m surprised Ford hasn’t offered this as an upgrade option for the standard 6.7 - performance shop. I’d like upgrade my 21 but not void warranty.
Haven't dived into the injectors yet. Interested though!
I feel that this is an emissions and efficiency solution to cope with a higher output. Case and point. Both the maxxforce HO and the C15 acert CATs use staged intercooling to help cool the incoming charge air between the turbos to help keep secondary turbo from getting cooked by the hot incoming air from the primary turbo and this solution also aids immensely in preventing the primary intercooler from getting heat soaked during hard pulls which would otherwise create anexcessively hot intake charge and enable poor emissions thus making the whole after treatment work overtime to keep emissions in check. These are purely my assumptions as to why ford chose this setup.
I appreciate the insight on how the class 8 tech might be trickling down into the light duty stuff. One thing is for sure, they're getting close to the single turbocharger PR limits and will probably start revisiting the staged compressor systems again (re:6.4PS) if the HP races continue.
@nahrens223 Great correlation! It would definitely be interesting to see how well this turbo could improve cooling on a compound setup, especially without an intermediate intercooler.
@nickpriegnitz5895 I feel that in due time a compound or sequential turbo setup similar to either the 6.4ps or ISV5.0 cummins will have to be revisited as well as long and EPA keeps requiring cleaner emissions all the while we the consumer keep demanding more power. I am also quite interested is seeing how Speed of Air dimpled pistons play into all of this as well.
Water cooled turbos are common on marine diesel engines
Air cooling, on compressor is paramount at high boost.
Charge air cooler might need a smalll boost ..hence they water cooled turbo
Eco boost turbos are water cooled
These turbos have water cooled cartridges as well (like the ecoboost) and most other OEM turbos today. The water cooled compressor cover is in addition to the cartridge cooling.
Have u guys figured out any tunes for the H.O. Yet? I’d love to tune mine as soon as you get one made
Not yet, on the R&D list though....
@@Duramaxtuner sweet!
Sounds like a great way to hydrolock a motor
@lukedougherty7078 Likely there is no direct access for the water to enter inside of the compressor cover. I will be interesting to see how much meat is between the coolant passages and the compressor wheel though. This could have a major effect on the upgradability of this turbo.
So apart from turbo any internal upgrades to the engine?
Compression ratio is dropped from 15.8:1 to 15.2:1. I think those are the correct numbers. The injectors flow 6% more fuel and the HO version has stainless up pipes to the turbo. There's probably more that I'm forgetting or can't remember
@@TheOutdoorDaileys Thank you for sharing! We aren't particularly versed in everything that's different between the two platforms yet either.
That's definitely worth the $3,000 upgrade.
Glad you're digging it!
Work at local dealer on my 4th long block cus of WHO KNOWS
My buddy just got a 2023 with the HO in it and he swears the thing will walk all over my 2017. It does have more power but it also has 4 more gears lol. I've always been afraid to tune. What do you offer for my 2017? Has to be emmisions on though. I woukd like a good safe tow tune.
We’ve been tuning ‘17s for years emissions on. We even campaigned one sled pulling. They make big power and the TCM tuning is a big help. czcams.com/video/LyvruCuHyz8/video.htmlsi=wIIh1DO2hIcQ2mxa
Also the truck regened less
My brother-in-law has 2017 with tune with delete, my neighbor has 2023 HO, 2017 will run away from 2023! His tunes are from AMDP, never had any problems with the tune plus you get fuel economy like 2023. If you can't roll coal, then you pick the tune without delete. Super easy to do.
I have baby 3.0 with AMDP tunes.
@@litoaykiu Thanks for the info. I've been afraid of tuning since I blew up my 2005 F150 due to a bad tune. Way too lean. Not that I don't trust these guys, I just don't trust anyone lol. I know my 2017 has way more in her so I may just bite the bullet and hope for the best. I definitely can't delete since we have smog and red dye check points here in Kommufornia. It's just a fine but I've heard of people getting impounded too. Not worth it.
@@jasonkubitz9410 Our tuning is designed and tested to be safe for your engine in a multitude of ways. We first try to understand what the limits of each vehicle's drivetrain are either by getting info from the manufacturers or by testing in the real world. We then test our tunes on company-owned trucks for up to a month to determine how well the truck's drivetrain handles the added power. In the case of our 2017 Powerstroke we have taken it to multiple sled pulling events with no engine issues so far. We want to be sure we are protecting customers' trucks because it protects our reputation as well. For the 2017 Powerstroke we offer two levels of towing-oriented tunes. Our heavy tune is designed for vehicles that tow up to gross vehicle weight and adds an additional 30rwhp and 65 ft-lbs of torque to your truck. However, if you aren't towing more than 8,000lbs our light tow tune can add up to 60rwhp and 130 ft-lbs of torque. We also highly recommend adding TCM tuning as well, especially if you tow. It can help inpove the durability of your transmission by increasing line pressure and clutch holding capacity. Plus it helps transfer more of the trucks additional power to the wheels using better optimized shift points. Here is a link to where you can find both Light and Heavy Tow Tunes for your 2017 Powerstroke: duramaxtuner.com/diesel-tuning/6-7l-powerstroke-tuner.html?find=2017-2019-include-hp-tuner-hardware-light-tow-24415
It's 25HP and 150ft lbs of Torque. It was hard hearing you say 120ft lbs repeatedly. The SO 6.7 is 475hp and 1050 torque. The HO is 500hp and 1200 torque. A quick google search tuned up what looks to be the reason for water cooling the turbo...keeping the bearings cooler for longevity. Having said that I appreciate your content and what you tried to accomplish with your video. There is more going on with the HO than just the turbo..I know for example they changed the discharge pipes and exhaust manifold. May not contribute to the HP and TQ numbers but goes to increased reliability? Food for thought. I can't tell if your making fun or actually trying to understand the differences that make up the additional 150hp and 25 tq. Seems like a balance to me. Small changes to eek out a little mor hp and tq along with increased reliability.
@pat9125 The bearing cooling definitely makes sense as turbo temperatures play a large role in the life of the bearings. Also our bad on the specs. You are certainly correct that it is 150ft/lbs and not 120ft/lbs
Theory 3 is a lot more likely scenario as anyone that has taken apart one of these turbos for rebuild will tell you how much gunk is stuck to everything inside of it that has to be cleaned before re-assembly.🤦🏻♂️
@atvtinker01 We can confirm. The compressor cover of conventional turbos gets very gunked up over time.
Until you have driven the two side by side, loaded and unloaded and really worked the engine both ways I don’t think you can snub the HP and torque increases. I understand you re in the business to make tunes and faster and stronger engines but there is a noticeable difference. My 2023 F350 Tremor walks away from my brother in laws 2020 F350 and they are both stock.
Fair statement. I have driven both but haven’t spent ‘ownership level’ seat time towing with the ‘23.
@armedprophet3321 I think the more important question here is how this turbo can work along with our tuning to gain even more of an increase in HP compared to the SO model. Not to mention how this new feature will affect the potential upgradability of this turbo.
@@Duramaxtuner True, but after spending 101 thousand dollars on a truck and 12,500 of those dollars being on the engine alone I don’t think I would want anyone touching it. Besides I can pull anything with tires with my truck.
It’s 25hp and 150ftlbs
Lol those power numbers can be gained with tuning and nothing else.
@only2genders82 That may be true but the real question is how much potential this holds for additional power through custom tuning.
@Duramaxtuner depends on if they changed the volume output of the cp4 as well. If not, that's still gonna be your limit, just over 1700us before you start to lose rail pressure.
@@HSKFabrications You're definitely right that a HPFP upgrade will be necessary to make anything over 600hp. Which we can essentially tune the truck to in its current configuration. However, it could open up the possibility of a higher HP tune with the addition of an upgraded fuel pump.
@Duramaxtuner True, if the turbo is more efficient, it may max out at higher hp ranges than the 15 and up gt37. I know it maxes out around the same time as the fuel. Starts making more backpressure than anything.
Why do you keep saying 120 ft lbs ?
It is 150 ft lbs increase
Standard is 1050
H. O. is 1200
That's 150,,, not 120
@user-mt6up4gq7d We did mis-speak on that. You are correct the reported torque increase is +150ftlb.
I definitely feel like the attitude of this video would have been completely different if duramax did these upgrades but because it’s a ford it’s kinda a joke.
My 2020 6.7 was dirty and ford reflashed it and it lost 100hp and 250 ft lbs. Dirty Basturds
Good old factory reset😡
I’m sure this guy is an expert. Or at least he thinks he is, can’t say. But……he’s never driven the to motors back to back. You can 100% absolutely tell the difference.
Nick is beyond expert
I can call myself an expert till I'm blue in the face, but Ford built the truck for you. I'm glad you shared your opinion as an owner and I'm sure Ford is glad to hear you're satisfied with the difference. I'd be curious to hear you comment on the use circumstance where you feel the most difference (ex: lugging, WOT, tip-in, towing etc.) Thanks Boob!
Maybe they want to heat it and not cool it.
Just buy the cheaper truck and add a aftermarket 80mm and send that guy to Jesus
@dmlandscapedesignllcatlant8093 You mean just buy the cheaper truck and add our tuning ;)
In a few months you will see videos on how to “bullet proof” your HO power stroke.
Expensive pos
@catapult182 The newer 6.7L Powerstrokes have been pretty robust in our testing and we're expecting this new HO model to be just as robust as well. Ford is clearly confident that this platform can hold more power than it previously came with and the 10-speed transmission seems to handle it fine.
Maybe it’s a reliability thing. If you are towing full weight up a hill WOT for long periods of time I assume high heat from the exhaust side will eventually soak into it. Instead of cooling from center cartridge maybe they decide to pull the heat out from compressor side to get advantage of keeping charge air cooler plus keeping the turbo cooler overall for longevity.
@TheAnonymous1one The center cartridge is cooled along with the compressor cover. However, it could definitely have to do with the reliability of the turbo over an extended period under high load.