BETTER than GAME OF THRONES? Medieval accuracy in House of the Dragon, episode 1
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2022
- Let's take a look at the MEDIEVAL ACCURACY in House of the Dragon.
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#medievalmisconceptions
The armor is 100% in line with Daemon as a character. He's the sort to wake up every morning, look in the mirror, and say "I am the dragon." He would also pay for armor to capture the aethetic and stand out. I could even see the maker commenting that his requests would leave him vulnerable or hinder his movement and him accepting the risk to capture the effect.
I agree 😂
"But ser, this is impractical."
"I AM THE DRAGON, DAMNIT!"
@@ToqTheWise Is the Dragon gonna have to choke a pesant?!
It just doesnt look good to me but i cant articulate why. It just doesnt look like real metal
It lines up with the it lines up with the EXTRAAA ass armor designs from season 1 GoT… if Sandor Clegane is supposed to be taken seriously peeking out of a hound’s open jaws even in tourny armor, I’m totally fine with Hightower having his helm hammered to look like a chess rook
I don’t think Daemon was trying to win points against the Hightower when he struck the horse. He just wanted to humiliate The Hand’s son.
Yeah, that move was shear disdain and dislike. An unabashed insult to his father.
@@danielbretall2236 which fits Daemon quite well. He has no regard for the established power, and runs his own private army and has his own authority.
Him even being in the tournament, using an open face helm, using dirty tricks? That’s daemon alright, arrogance, spite and ambition backed up by genuine talent and skill
@@paladinshark2448 He's basically what if Jaime Lannister had extra skill, testosterone, and royal blood. I'd have loved to see Jaime go up against Daemon and get his candy ass whooped.
I wonder, or in general aiming for the horse at the last moment doesn't put you in a vulnerable spot from the opposing Lance, especially against an experienced opponent who knows how to move his lance at the last moment.
It kinda threw me out of the fantasy when he did that- its like they really needed to get that ”GoT violence” in there somehow.
In history all the designs in armor for jousting was for the shield to take the lance, and the armor of the horse and knight to absord any damage- you werent supposed to actually target the horse.
I think it was quite fitting that most of the stuff you felt seemed out of place in design from a medieval perspective were items related to the Targaryens - they are, after, meant to be a foreign culture from a much more sophisticated (and much more fantasy) lost civilisation, who are only gradually integrating with the more traditional medieval culture of Westeros.
Not only that, but the Targaryen (or Valeryen in general) are based off of The Melnibonean (they are also dragon riders) from Michael Moorcock's book series Elric of Melnibone. In fact Daemon and Bloodraven when he was young are basically Elric. GRR Martin and Michael Moorcock are friends in real life so he borrow a few thing from Moorcock's books and some time put Easter Eggs in his works (one famous one is in Game of Thrones TV shows, when Joffrey ask the lords what name should he call his new Valeryen sword, a guy shout "Stormbringer", Stormbringer is Elric's soul sucking sword in the book). So I think Daemon armor although might not be historical authentic, serve as a call back to what inspired the Targaryen and it does suit Daemon character too.
Sophisticated is d new Impractical.
Its not very gradual at all though, Aegon the Conqueror took very significant steps to turn his house in one pretty much indistinguishable from a Westerosi one. Old Valyrian traditions in house Targaryen I think are far more rare than not, Awoiaf also points out even the Free Cities have moved past most of their Valyrian heritage.
@@Anthonest1 The Lys people are basically Valyrians
Good call Shad, they did shoot the external scenes for King's Landing in Cáceres and Trujillo of Spain.
My bet was southern France so I wasn't that wrong, I guess. It's usually very obvious when architecture is real or made out of cardboard in movies.
Really? I thought they filmed the King's Landing scenes in Croatia. It always gave me a Byzantine vibe.
@@anakinthemannequin69 You are correct, they filmed King's Landing in Dubrovnik, Croatia for the first seasons of GoT.
@@humbug1577 Wrong, in the first season of GoT they filmed in Malta, they started to film in Dubrovnik only in the second season.
The Targaryans are higher fantasy than the rest to show they're a race apart IMO. Same with the king's model and the jousting stadium. It's foreign aesthetic being put in by a conquering power that haven't fully assimilated yet.
One detail for the jousting arena, is that some of the seats next to the noble's pavilion would be unable to see what was going on. Imagine someone sitting near the nosebleed section, next to the noble pavilion, that would only be able to see half of the jousting. Unless the noble pavilion was low enough that they could see over?
They are different but not above all peoples, the Starks also have magic in their blood.
They have a special bloodline but they are not a race, they're a family, a clan. One that marries their cousins and siblings in the name of "blood purity".
@@toddkes5890 That’s not particularly unrealistic - the comfort of the ruling class comes way above considerations of sightlines for the common folk in just about every similar situation in most of human history until the last few decades. What’s probably more realistic is for the King not to be visible for people on his side of the arena - medieval kings almost always wanted to be seen.
Considering all the things said about them considering the Targaryens to be closer to gods than man, with their control of the dragons and all that, I think you’re right
I think with Daemons Armour, they designed it thinking "How can we make this guy look like the most insufferable, edgy a-hole" & they really succeed at that task. Bc of all people, He would run around in something so impractical. He probably thinks he is to good at fighting to be hit anyway.
And this is why his Sword, Dark Sister, a passed down Targaryen-Family-Sword, looks completely fine. Still dragon themed, but an actual weapon because he wasn't breathing down the blacksmith's neck, demanding something cooler.
Yeah I think it's really ignoring some of the absolutely ridiculous looking custom armour in real life. It wasn't common but it did exist.
POV: your the 1% of people that dislikes Daemon
@@oshura2506 No I love him. He is a insufferable edgy a-hole tho, esp at this age.
@@oshura2506 Daemon gets a lot less likeable as a character as the show goes on ngl.
@@drachna To me it is quite the opposite. He gets more likeable as the show proceeds
I appreciate the fact that the armours in HOT D are accurate enough but still noticably fantasy, and the Dameon Targaryen helmet looking like actual Greek winged helmets omaygahd
"HOT D" lmao
@@PinballCollection I think that's what George rr Martin calls it 💀
Daemon's helmet is beautiful, impractial, could be used for Ceremonial pruposes
Looks like rabbit ears flopping around.
@@guishodan i disagree, winged helmets especially in antiquity were uncommon but were there (horned helmets even more so even further back) especially for leaders of armies and nobility, and the Targs are essentially all that and we've seen worse helmets IRL from the fancy to the 'Holy shit who even decided that design was a good idea?'
The overall plot of the book this show is based on is loosely based on a real period in English history called “the Anarchy.” A monk who survived the period wrote that people were so cruel that the small folk “openly said that Christ and his Saints slept.” Get ready for some surprises.
It's basically Pillars of the Earth, but with dragons. The Empress Mathilda on a Dragon, dope.
I love how armor actually does something in this series! theres multiple instances in the battle between Daemon and Cole where the armor saves them
Honestly the real measure of this for me will be whether armor will protect the extras or if attacks go through theirs like it's paper mache.
The amount of times a sword just goes through armor in the Game of Thrones show was just comical. Monty Python ended up being more realistic because the Black Knight aimed for the helmet eye slit.
Armour in the original series was a big disappointment. HOD was a pleasant surprise.
My main gripes were helmets because they would've been iconic if done well and made sense, it provides protection and shows alot of characterisation if the design makes sense but also shows the character's prefferences and such (i largely focus on the chest and head and everything else is go berserk as long as it makes sense)
So Daemon and the jousting knights having realistic and sometimes very fancy/decked out helmets really made them stand out and memorable
@@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479 I really liked the armour, but Deamons helmet reminded me a bit too much of the ones Rohan uses
@@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479 completely agree, the helmet/armour can make the character( much like described in the book!)
The difference that having more funding can make bruh. If only the original GOT had the same amount starting out.
Agree, but I think that had more to do with budget than anything.
Even though this takes place 173 years before GOT, the technology in HOTG is at the height. There has also been peace for the last 150 years. Newer armor is more showy than functional. For the iron throne, they got swords from The Witcher and other shows/movies and melted them down. I love that they show the opulence of old Valyria. Plus all the dragon items. When Robert overthrew the king he stripped all of it out.
*Spoiler* The second episode definitely seems to prove your thought process. All but one knight has never actually been in combat in a war setting.
The tourney knights and the complacency peace has afforded them has most favoring fashion over function.
During one scene where the knight was asking for one of the lady's favor (think it was Daemon), you can see that they have what in the Game of Thrones universe is a "Tourney Lance" with a blunt end in the shape of a fist. This wasn't meant to be a joust of war, it spiraled out of control. The story tellers wanted to 1) show the juxtaposition of the violence of the knights killing one another with the Cesarean Section and 2) show how the Kingdom was already on edge of warfare and chaos. You definitely get the idea that there are rules and they are being ignored. The King was weak, and they wanted to show how things could and would go terribly wrong.
Shad, one complaint. The Joust of War didn’t mean you went to kill the other person. It was still an affair to be restrained and while death was a possibility, it wasn’t a strong possibility.
What we saw at on screen was very, very different from all but the MOST brutal of tournaments.
Wow, I got noticed! Thank you, thank you XD
I agree but I think the violence is meant to be a type of foreshadowing, how the previous cordial joust (the Six Kingdoms, since Dorne is still doing its thing) quickly descends into gruesome bloodshed the moment Viserys steps away. More characters should've commented on the brutality though.
Not to mention many of these individuals aren't just knights, a lot of them are the sons and heirs of powerful nobles. The man Daemon knocks the horse out from under? That's Otto Hightower's son. The hand of the king. Arguably the second most powerful man in Westeros and possibly the world. What kind of individual with that kind of power and standing allows their son to participate in this and what kind of king sets rules for a tournament that allow for outright murder when he knows that the close family members and heirs of some of the most powerful families in his kingdom, NOT TO MENTION HIS OWN BROTHER AND ONLY CURRENT MALE HEIR, will attend.
And yeah, I get it, it's foreshadowing and the show runners want shock value, but holy shit is this stupid. I really like the plot thus far and the show is mostly good, but this scene should have consequences. Far reaching, severe consequences.
@@leftwardglobe1643 I'm fairly certain that no one nobody went into the tournament expecting there to be actual bloodshed, and as far as I can tell the only deaths were among knights representing their houses, not actual high nobility. Rhaenyra even says something to effect of "A lord promised to marry one of his daughters to (insert name) squire", which seems to indicate he's not big
As for Otto, Gwayne wasn't actually killed or even crippled/severely wounded as far as I can tell. The horse gets up and Gwayne, though with blood on his face, isn't screaming in agony or anything, and the crowd cheers upon him getting up.
As for it being allowed, that's also not as ridiculous as it seems. Daemon is royalty, brother of the king, and a dragon rider. The Hightowers, while one of the most ancient, richest, and most influential houses in all of Westeros are still only a house, and Viserys repeatedly has struck down Otto's efforts to retaliate against Daemon. Relatives of kings in real life with less power, not even mentioning the obvious leeway being able to ride and control a dragon gives you, have been able to do worse things and get away with it. Also the crowd is mixed with boos and cheers when Daemon trips the horse, showing it is not universally approved.
In total, I feel the scene is a great example of "Show, don't tell". Instead of having people say "Daemon is a wildcard and kind of an asshole", they show him cheating in a tourney and humiliating a young lady right after by asking for her favour. Instead of saying that "Viserys is the only thing holding together the peace of the realm", they show a microcosm of it by having shit get bad once he steps away. Instead of just having Rhaenys says "The realm is full of young men who don't know war", which she does, they also show it by having these squires and other lesser nobility eager for a chance at fame duking it out to the death in what's supposed to be a pretty controlled and regulated event.
Is it without flaw? Fuck no. As I said, far more characters should've been commenting on this, as well as saying how this is out of line. There also should've been a line from someone, probably Otto, that goes something like "When squires die, it's spectacle. When lord sons die, it's war...".
@@Vesporeon The fact that the bloodshed is allowed multiple times and no one is chastised or disqualified for it means that it is an accepted part of the ruleset. So yes, they absolutely are entering this with the knowledge that they can kill and be killed during and after the tilt.
And neither Daemon nor Gwayne should be in such a competition due to their standing. Yes, it was not unheard of for jousts to allow lethal force, but this is not the kind of joust where something like that should be allowed. Worse still if it is allowed and two high standing knights fight and kill one another that should lead to a blood feud in the best case scenario.
As to Daemon tripping the horse, that's fine. Unsportsmanlike? I'd say so, but there's no indication that it's against the rules.
What I have an issue with is, again, the killing. This should not be allowed in a tournament with these people in it.
It's a cool scene, sure. And yes, it illustrates a point. But it is an incredibly nonsensical way to achieve that.
11:10 in regard of the original show Jousting Arena, theres a Canon reason for being like that, the Kingdom was in great debt, so they couldnt afford much more than that 😅
I thought it was because the king was in transit at the time and just held an event in a local arena?
The lannisters didnt pay their debts lol
@@MadMikeRyan. No, that joust took place after they all returned to King's Landing.
Pfft, debt never affected Robert, that's what other people's money is for. The crown was notably in debt to the Lannisters.
The jousting parts looked great. The editing for the melee fighting left must to be desired
I didn't notice the janky editing tbh. I was kind of distracted because I felt a bit of whiplash switching back and forth between the c section scene and the fighting. Idk if it was a bad editing choice to place those together or if I'm the only one who has that problem.
It was great until they started dirty fighting. No one would joust if you went after the horse.
@@sleepinggiant4062 Agreed, and not a word was said of it, they were clapping!
I yelled out OHHH he just cheated!
@@gilbatzri the crowd booed
@@gilbatzri you can’t boo the prince
IIRC the crest on helms was often not made of metal (or at least fully from metal) and instead from made of things like painted wood, paper or leather over a wire or wood framework since people in the medieval times weren't stupid and knew that adding the weight of a fully metal crest (and these were often big and fancy) would most likely only result in snapping the neck of the knight wearing such crest so lighter materials were used instead.
I love when a show/movie can get close enough that even Shad has good things to say. Love to see it!
So in regards of the joust. As the second biggest lore expert in asoiaf in NM (Hard to be #1 with Grrm living here) the issue I have is the over the top violence does not fit. Viserys was a generally peaceful man and in the books (Spoilers ahead) Criston Cole "accidentally" kills a man and is reprimand by the King himself for turning a day of celebration into one of mourning. (Spoilers end)
During Robert's Tourney when Gregor accidentally killed Hugh of the Vale people were horrified and surprised. Also when Gregor attacked Loras people were again horrified and Sandor leapt in to save him and Robert called the situation Madness.
The situation we see in HOT D would be appropriate if Aryes, Joffery, Meagor, or Aegon the unworthy was king but not Viserys.
Also that was not a Dolphin that was a Trout. It's House Tully where character like Brynden Tully The Black Fish come from.
Fr throughout that scene I was just scratching my head
I did like the dolphin, I feel Viserys was portrayed correctly, when things got out of hand I believe he had already left, in the show. I might be remembering wrong, but wasnt Jaehaerys the peaceful king? And Viserys was kind of a pushover, or people pleasing King
@@chrisretzlaff2895 Both ruled during peace, Jahaerys had one war with Dorne but was not the aggressor and just kicked their ass in a single battle while Viserys had no wars if I recall.
And he was a bit of a people pleaser but he wasn't a weak willed man, he was able to show is authority when it was required, his biggest weakness was just the ignorance of how the people he loved despised eachother.
Even with that their were still powerful nobles in attendance such as Otto Hightower and Corlys Valaryon who are also not weak in character or influence and made no attempt to stop the bloodshed.
Also ITS NOT A DOLPHIN!!!!!!
To be fair, they had almost 200 years gap between got and hod. So the jousting rules could've changed a lot during those times
I think HOD a got some problems with using violence just for the sake of it so far. Nobles getting butt hurt over losing in the middle of Jousting loses the whole purpose of chivalry.
I would like to respond to a few things.
When you talk about the 3 knights that stand there, displaying their heraldry, you identify a dolphin, and a lion. Those knights are quite clearly belonging to some major houses: Tully (trout, not dolphin), and Lannister. And the third is house Bolton (flayed man on a cross).
As to the melee's happening at the jousts, the first melee where the fallen knight pulls the victor off his horse, there is an audible gasp from the crowd. I think that was not played by the rules, and hence other knights then getting in and choosing sides, at which point that gets bloody. The later melees that happen do seem to follow rules, where the other party is given time to respond, and the melee to be announced.
When Daemon attacks the horse instead of the rider, again there is an audible reaction from the crowd. Might be because of the big tumble it creates, but the way I feel that reaction, is different. From what happens, I think it's not illegal, but definitely frowned upon and deemed dishonorable, hence the gasp: "nooo, he did not just do that". This then tells us a few things immediately about the character: he's arrogant enough that he doesn't care about what others think and his honour, and he will do whatever it takes to win. Which then sets his character up nicely for the looming war of succession.
Knights chomping at the bit with no war to fight (especially 2nd born sons) was one of the main motivations for the first crusade.
i think the main problem about the killing each other part at the joust was that it wasn't just ordinary people killing each other it was members of the nobility who were greatly valued over basically everyone else. not only did knights take years of dedication and training but they were also very expensive and i think having lots of knights from very powerful noble families dying in tourneys like that is pretty wasteful but i think it would probably make more sense if it was people of lower class such as sellswords killing each other instead of noble knights.
I haven't read the book or watched the show, but if the society was like parts of medieval europe, only one son per noble family actually inherited. The rest ... might be put to work with the clergy or some other profession. Perhaps to become soldiers in this conext?
I think most of them were part of their house's household guard, instead of being actual nobles. In the books, the tourneys aren't just made up of knights (afaik)
it would still be a great waste of skilled warriors though
Except for how, at least going by all the undying feuds I noticed in the GOT series I take it there's probably a simmering hatred between all the houses/factions present. Sorry I've never cracked open any of Matin's books.
And like the GOT series I'll probably wait until it's available in DVD and then for my libraries system to get copies
But the noble knights did kill each other, that's why the code of chivalry was developed and promoted by the church, to lessen it. They also hated the idea of the tournaments.
17:23 The "dolphin" heraldry on that squire is actually the fish on the banner of house Tully. I'm glad you pointed it out, because you can also see the heraldry of houses Baratheon, Arryn, and Bolton in that shot, as well as a couple I don't recognise. I really love to see that sort of thing, great bit of recognition for the houses that aren't directly involved in the plot but are important houses nonetheless
Don’t hit the horse: as shown in Ep1 the horse “strike” wouldn’t have worked - any large horse can easily run through a lance placed like it was, this wouldn’t have tripped any war horse. The real reason not to strike the horse though: it will unseat you. Any lance strike on armor is a competition of effective mass (strikes against the unarmored were often overhand to ease withdrawal of the tip from the body - a couched lance will over penetrate an unarmored human body making it a single use weapon in that position), with the effective mass being a combination of the holding ability of the user, the mass of the user, their attachment to their horse, and the mass of the horse. The key to winning a joust is to stick your lance on your opponent where it won’t slip off (and in defending your job is to make your opponents lance slip off you) and then holding onto your horse to transfer as much of your combined momentum into your opponent. If you do it perfectly you’ll unhorse your opponent, as your effective mass (you plus horse) is higher than your opponent (their slipped off lance). Broken lances then come from either both of you placing the lances correctly and your combined momentum is enough to break both at once, or a misplaced lance that engages at an angle.
Jousting world champion Shane Adams says hitting/killing the horse at a joust would have you striped of titel and land
I thought this as soon as I saw it in the show. Daemon is so unbalanced as he does this so he doesn't really even get any power to trip the horse.
So basically you're saying Daemon was a huge dick. He aimed for the horse to show he didn't care about winning the horse. In doing so, he was unbalanced on his horse, allowing his opponent to knock him off. Daemon got what he deserved. Who would do that to a horse?
Both of the Targaryen swords that you liked were made by Peter Johnsson, the swordsmith who designed for Albion. In fact, he was making those swords at the same time he was making mine. They are beautiful work.
Shad, I think you are underestimating the flails in general, because pop culture depicts them used outside their speciality: it seems like an obvious cavalry weapon.
In your flail video you theorized that flail would generate more force than a mace, but it is not worth it. I think it's the other way around: mace is more likely to hit harder, but the lack of kinetic linking in flail is actually an advantage when you are riding past your opponent. With the speed of the horse adding to the strength of the blow, the hand shock from a mace would quickly become an issue. But in these circumstances, a flail can still generate lethal blunt force trauma with negligible hand shock. Also, you get more reach than you would with a mace. For these reasons, I think flail might well be the best blunt force weapon for mounted combat.
I think Elden ring actually got this right: a flails moveset is trash on foot, but on horseback it's above average option.
Huh, that does make sense.
I understand your theory but when on horseback there is a lot of bouncing and shifting around, your flail would be flailing around (pun intended) and would make landing an accurate blow much harder than a fixed weapon.
Lances were used for a reason, they were highly effective.
@@MandaloreTheReclaimer Lance is of course the primary weapon. I'm thinking flail as a mounted sidearm, like you would use a sabre, but against armored targets.
The flail was originally a farming tool to beat the wheat to get the grain.
I… eh. I’ve been hit by a whip from horseback (the guy fucked up), and while yeah, that really fucking hurt, I needed stitches, that’s not going to break or even particularly hurt through a thick shirt, much less a plate of steel. The scar didn’t even last that long. With the right (or in this case, worst possible) timing, it will take skin off, but it’s just pain and possible infection later. Fighting capacity is completely unaffected in the moment, or for the rest of that day for that matter. You can’t realistically swing a weight big enough to do more damage than an effective supersonic dart in combat.
Can you imagine the amount of family feuds and civil wars if you had jousts where there was that sort of killing (splitting someone head with an axe)
I mean, these were not peasants, slaves or professional fighters. They were all nobles and minor nobles. I take several of them were higher nobility.too, like the Targaryen prince himself.
Even if the society of the time liked violence, thru would not allow it, THAT WAY, with nobility and powerful houses
Yeah but that's assuming the knights are related to the Houses they represent. Could've just been bastards or lowborn randoes who were knights.
@@NjamNjam0 From the books we KNOW several of the knights are actually important people.
"Could've just been bastards or lowborn randoes who were knights."
Yeah, with full plate armor worth more than a mill.
Any threat of civil war would probably end with the Targaryens flying dragons and threatening to burn down your castle. Family feuds would probably get settled with more honor duels where two guys go in, one guy walks away alive. I mean, honor duels were pretty common in Westeros. Littlefinger challenged Ned Stark's older brother and got his candy ass whooped, and he'd have been killed if Catelyn Stark didn't save his ass by pleading for mercy.
@@rogeriopenna9014 Fair point.
@@HolyknightVader999 honor duel to the death is one thing.
Joust tournaments are a dangerous sport but not on purpose to death.
Even Roman gladiatorial games, when involving top gladiators and free men were rarely to death with such violence.
In the books themselves they mention joust tournaments where death was seen as tragedy, transforming day of celebration into mourning.
Honestly, I LOVE the CZcams ecosystem that game of thrones creates. It’s a great source for content. Thanks for this
As for the bathtub, one other thing to consider is a sheer weight of this thing, especially when filled with water. Unless it's a ground floor, they'd be risking breaking the ceiling beams of the room below.
So glad to see you making this, I'm so happy to see smart people discussing how great many of the things in this show are.
Hey there Shad. I'm the jouster in the pic at 18:20.
It was taken at a jousting tournament in Austin, TX called Lysts on The Lake.
Nice video, keep up the good work. Cheers!
Those outside attachments are called "Flying Buttresses". You see those on cathedrals.
I haven’t seen episode 1 yet but I’m super stoked. Making sure I watch this after I see the episode. Thanks for the great content as always Shad
Great video. Hope you do this for every episode of the season.
Just made a shabbard for my exicutioner sword
Great video! Im looking forward for the next one =)
Thank you for commenting on the prevalence of what seemed like deliberate killing among the knights. I was thirsting to know if it was too much so thanks for puting it into context and my mind at ease.
People love fantasy in fact fantasy is the easiest way to get people to study there history or other people history. Having a good health balance between fantasy and realist really help the story that you are tell.
I've been developing a medieval fantasy story, with its own races, monsters, gods, ECT. Watching your videos, such as this one, has been helping me with the development of my story.
Read books. Nonfiction. Do a whole lot of research. Fantasy is demanding, if you want it to be good.
@@Halo_Legend yeah, are there any books you'd recommend? The story originally got influenced by the elder scrolls, but also takes in other fantasy elements.
@@ohwowthereissomechez4395 That's quite a bit of backwards research to do because Elder Scrolls is itself so reliant on Tolkien, DnD, Arthurian legend, and Conan the Barbarian.
My advice; get specific. Don't rely on generic tropes to carry your setting. Like the Italian story "The Name of the Rose" which was adapted into the Sean Connery / Christian Slater movie, that's about a Frisian monk (I may be misremembering the type) and his pupil trying to solve a murder mystery in the middle of religious strife and the inquisition. Instead of just setting it "generic middle ages", Umberto Eco is hyper-specific about exactly when and where this story is to take place and basing the more fantastical elements (the religious references in the murder-methods and the omen it is taken to represent; the mysterious forbidden library-tower that the murders revolve around) be evocative of the time it's based upon; not fudging the details of realism to make the plot easier to write. And as a result, the movie manages to make the Middle Ages _feel_ like something that happened yesterday.
@@samwallaceart288 Thank you for the advice. I have already gotten in a couple of pages done, I have already done plenty of research into fantasy stories, in fact, ive worked on the lore for several months to a year at this point, so it's starting to get developed more. Once again, thank you.
@@ohwowthereissomechez4395 well now I'm curious to know more about your story. With everyone writing so many books these days I'm always fascinated to hear what different people do differently
From a realistic standpoint there is a consideration that must be made with the existence of occasional magical tooling and materials. In addition to this from a very real world point of view, there has been very strange creations made for the single purpose of being sold to wealthy people. That cart for example could be a flex and a death trap after X number of miles.
3:31 compare that carriage to the one in GOT season 1, episode 1, during the royal arrival at Winterfell. Technology seems to have regressed significantly in 170+ years.
Same w/ armor. The armor looks better than in GOT. It's like Star Wars.
@@robo5013 Haha!
Was waiting for this one!
24:10
I don’t think this is allowed, everyone just knows that if they say anything to Daemon about his rule breaking, they have to take it up with the head of his complaint department, Caraxes.
He’s a Targaryen and the brother of the king so he gets away with what knights who don’t have a dragon wouldn’t be able to, basically.
Congrats Shad, you made a hella entertaining video!
Well this is interesting, first time I've got the notification to watch this quickly
Very much enjoy your channel, mainly for the level of accuracy you call out things on
That way of jousting with no pauses between the tilts kinda reminded me of car races with their pit-stops and the crew rapidly doing the necessary maintenance so the car could be on track in a few seconds
I love to see these on the analysis of historical accuracy in fantasy. Still hoping we get to take a look at a Knight's tale
Ah something nice to watch after waking up
Hey you, you're finally awake
awesome video shad
The knight in the dented armor was Cristan Cole. Later in the episode the shows explains how he's a common born son of Lord Dondarrion's steward and no one really knows who he is. So the dented up armor was supposed to signify his low born status.
The details aside, the fact that this tourney ended with a bloody fight to the death multiple times just doesn’t feel right to me.
I would even agree with Preston Jacobs that the way Hugh of the Vale’s death was brushed off in AGOT was too over the top, never mind this. These are still highborn people expecting to do sports, that’s what all of these games are to them, not realistic war.
Even in actual war, it was uncommon for nobles to be killed which is why Agincourt was such a shock to Medieval Europe as the flower of French chivalry were butchered by peasants with longbows. Nobles are meant to be captured and exchanged, and that mentality is not reflected in HOTD.
Yes, it’s a fantasy series and can take liberties as it pleases, but as Rhaenys says, it’s been seventh years since Maegor died, the last time there was a real threat of civil strife. All these young men have grown up knowing peace and plenty, so why are they so needlessly violent towards each other?
It would be like if a Super Bowl game descended into mass slaughter today and the explanation was that it’s been decades since the Second World War so the violence in men has to be let out somehow. It’d be ludicrous.
This is the underlying force behind Renly’s push for the throne with his “knights of summer,” as Catelyn derides them: they have no idea what they’re getting into or how bad and bloody the reality of war is. Young men are meant to have idealistic and romantic views of war shattered by the reality whereas these men fight like seasoned veterans already, it’s just a tonal mess.
So the deaths at the tourney were way, WAY too over the top and they could have gotten what they wanted with Daemon fighting Criston Cole alone, the rest was needlessly violent without a real point except a thematic one to contrast with Aemma’s battle in childbed which, again, could have been accomplished just with Daemon and Criston.
I mean you also have to remember basically half of the important counsel members including the king left and the only ones there are the other nobles and rich folk, probably enjoyed it enough to not stop it (which would explain why in ASOIAF alot of duels and stuff go through generations because they lost some tourney or castle)
This is also a world where fantasy vikings are still around even though standing armies are a thing, people just have a different culture man and as for the men being needlessly violent i'd chalk it up to the fact this is on the name day of the heir, in the capital, and with as said in the small counsel alot of nobles from across the realm. Alot of glory to be won and lost and we know this world is far more bitter than our
Honestly, I think it was entertainment and fed into the politics they were pushing. The whole "lets make childbirth as bloody as possible" scene overlaid with male violence, while the new Tyrell-like Lady bemoans violent young men. Put female bleeding (Alicent picking her nails I thought was clever) with hyperviolent knights. I'd have preferred your suggestion, but you wouldn't fit the condescending speech with the birth *and* Cole and Daemon sparring.
It's also in lore a bit of a retcon probably to justify very brutal violent scenes. Jaeharys had many several rebellions in his reign. My guess is it's a reduction to show the intolerance of the society; on the run up to war people will probably murder people needlessly, in the future things go crazy, and as you say it lets them repeat the 'knights of summer' idea much as they closed in on the dagger and referenced prophecy about GOT's ending.
I had similar thoughts watching it because I remember in the GOT tourney the Mountain going nuts was meant to be savage and insane. I think they may even have been thinking 'we made this better, what if that aggression was always there?' Like in series where they make something a ritual retroactively, the idea of just trying to kill when you lose is a reason for more fight scenes. And I don't want to spoil anything; but future tournaments in the book have people just being needlessly cruel so maybe they wanted to start brutal and make it worse going forward.
Let's be honest, aside from Dunk portrayals of chivalry are not going to be visible in the series. GRRM doesn't write knights and chivalric conduct unless the person is heavily handicapped or ostracized. (sorry for the word wall, just made me think while reading through).
early medieval tourneys often had a shocking level of violence and often resulted in death, also i imagine the less formal combats are happening between lower ranking hedge knights and the like. having the son brother or father of one of the Great Houses getting butchered in a melee would be a bigger deal.
I was thinking the exact same thing watching this. Even in the tourneys described in Dunk and Egg, jousting didn't devolve into a bloody melee. A melee was its own event. Plus I was like why are these dudes just murdering each other when they have zero experience in actual war and there seems no point to it. Its just seemed a bit much. Also how Daemon just tripped Hightower's horse and nobody says a word seemed kind of weird as well. I feel like they would be a disqualification or why wouldn't everyone do that?
@@torwynd3131 I don’t think tripping a horse would be allowed, everyone just knows that if they say anything to Daemon about his rule breaking, they have to take it up with the head of his complaint department, Caraxes.
He’s a Targaryen and the brother of the king so he gets away with what knights who don’t have a dragon wouldn’t be able to, basically
What everyone else’s excuse is, I don’t know.
"He's holding it backwards." I'm guessing that it would be quite common during a prolonged melee that swords would slip and un-index and the user wouldn't have time to fix his grip so he would just keep going even with it being backwards.
I am used to fighting with a longsword. I don't remember it ever "slipping" like you describe and that's with a weapon that has two same sides. If the side did matter the wielder would make hell of a lot sure to hold it right. Also, the handles are oval. Once you grip it, you know how you are holding it - you just won't let it rotate.
Another great video 👍
36:13 The helmet looks like Magneto is the captain of the King’s Guard.
Very good and enjoyable video.
That specific type of shield for jousting you show is called a "Bouche," it's French for mouth cheek.
Great vid. so, it is commented that there is peace and the knights are looking for action, further supporting what you said on lethal combat. However I did noticed in a close up, one of the lances was capped suggesting non lethal desires. This may be meant to be a non lethal tourney however the knights may not being willing to yield and aren't being forced to, thus resulting in the lethality depicted. Thank you for explaining the accuracies to a medieval period. I also have been explaining such myself to many friends who are getting quite the culture shock. Thank you and take care!
I’ve missed watching Shadiversity.
An interesting thing for me is going to be will all the armies be wearing completely different armour and equipment, or will it be near the same save for the heraldry displayed on the banners and shields etc. For they seemed to really overdo that in GOT. Thinking especially of outlandish looking armies they created like the Frey's. Or indeed all the Westerlanders wearing/carrying Lannister heraldry
I feel like with their bigger budget they can afford to have the armies look more heterogenous, but I'm not getting my hopes too high. We know the knights will look more unique but the house troops we've seen so far (Targaryen and Velaryon men-at-arms) look quite uniform. Who knows though, maybe that's just for the household troops and the bigger armies will look more diverse.
An easier touch not to spoil it will probably be the type of armor and colour. There's no need for the funny Lannister helmets vs fur cloaks. Won't spoil it but there's an obvious colour/shade difference and even things like hair styles and metals used will make it obvious who's on what side.
@@thewayfarer8849 history nerds make up perhaps 5% of the audience. So they need to make movies and shows for the other 95% unfortunately.
@@john-paulsilke893 Sad, but I'm hoping common sense and a bit of flair wins out, showing cool knights we can see standing out by colour is so easy, but then we don't work in Hollywood
@@thewayfarer8849 if I had my druthers I’d do a hybrid version of a Hollywood “medieval” battlefield.
Start with champion challenges, (historical examples a plenty). Tabards and shields for almost everyone with kinda matching colours to their side, and helmets as well. Cool giant archer shields with dirty peasants carrying and setting them up. Knights being chased by squires handing them new lances and spears after they wheel around and retreat while their similarly dressed men at arms stand in a spear picket. And more peasants picking through the bodies afterwards doing very grim parts and materials collecting, (and handing over the bulk of what they collect to the victors and getting to keep a small potion).
Thanks, Shad; I appreciate your insight.
After listening to your videos , it makes me want to revisit the royal armouries up at Leeds UK not been for a few years now
Haven't seen the whole video yet, not feeling too well, but some advice just in case, for future videos of this sort, it would be great to not only show the screenshots you are talking about and referring too, but also to use arrows or alike to specifically show and point out the exact parts you are referring to, as I got a bit lost sometimes at which exact bits you were mentioning, that would certainly help Shad, thank you.
If you like tanks, you could call the dagger, an armour piercing weapon.
+1 to dad on jokes.
the jousting arena reminded me of a roman hipodrome
I really appreciate you keeping your political views (even though I agree with most of them) and you medieval content separate. It’s nice to not have politics shoved down my throat (great video btw very entertaining).
In the books they never use the word flail. They call it a morningstar. It's usually used by a mounted knight as a battlefield weapon
The word flail is used several times. Not often, but several.
Not to be that guy... but I will be that guy with pleasure: Martin's books are nothing to be desired when it comes to realistic, historically accurate medieval combat and everything around it.
Also the dude is an English speaker and he based his castles on the English ones, which are the worst. They suck.
@@Halo_Legend It is in the second comment that you did in fact, become 'that guy'.
a morning star is a type of flail.
All morning stars are flails, not all flails are morning stars.
I’d love for you to review mediaeval fantasy crowns, or just a whole episode on crowns.
Love tour content and really enjoyed your video! My takeaway with Criston Cole's armor (the 'poor' knight) was probaly more for the visual cue to the audience. Like hey, remeber this guy is of lower birth and isn't wealthy. True, it was mentioned, but not everyone catches every line, but you can easily see the dented and simple armor and you immediately know.
There is a stylistic aspect as well, the mountain's tourney armor was described as black, worn and dinted when he fought at the king's tourney. Some people don't shine up their armor, vs Tywin Lannister or Renly's armor that were expressions of their wealth, influence and family. Likewise Bronn did not maintain his gear to a shine.
Working vs Show
I think Cole vs Daemon was making that juxtaposition.
I've been racking my brain since I saw Ser Harrold Westerling's helmet. When you said it looked sci-fi, I realized it looked like something out of Chronicles of Riddick.
Most Kings Landing sceens are film or based on Croatian city of Dubrovnik
The GoT one was also the way it was because the crowd that was expected to gatherer for the tourney was too large to hold the tourney in King's Landing, so an impromptu grounds was set up across the blackwater iirc
The nerd in me when Shad accidentally calls the trout of House Tully a dolphin at 17:29: 😮
All good Shad lol, not everyone is as sunk into this world as me.
-"A Dolphin!" - Traditional war cry of House Tully.
@@Immopimmo You mean, "Family, Dolphins, Honor", right? 😆
This is a great video😀
Another fantastic video, definitely hyped for this show as I haven’t seen it yet, I have a question about a sword from an old movie
What about the sword cane from Zatoichi? I’d like to hear your opinion on it if you haven’t done it yet
never would I have thought that a GOT themed film would feature colour
when I saw that tournament and all the bling they brought, I was like "Ohhhh, Shad is gonna have a field day here."
I like to think that King Robert cares less about having a grand looking tournament and just wanted to throw one together really quick to get drunk and see people fight.
He also liked more rugged athstetic. Down and gritty. Hunting and fighting. He was never for the more clean royal looking things
he was also in massive debt to the iron bank of braavos, so he couldn't afford a grand tourney which is something ned stark brings up too.
Remember the Kingdom was flat broke when King Robert held his joust.
10:00
When it comes to the gaps between the metal plates this actually isn’t entirely historically inaccurate. The early forms of brigandines, known as a coat of plates, would have small gaps between the plates. This would provide extra protection as a crude set of “brigandine” to place over a hauberk.
Actually only some coat of plates had gaps many were overlaping, and it's alot smaller than the gaps seen in fantasy designs on the ones that do have gaps.
About flails wrapping around swords; I played in a LARP so we used foam weapons and flails were allowed, the only weapon you could hit someone in the head with. The 'chain' had to be 12" or less for safety, didn't want them to be able to wrap around someone's neck, but they could wrap around weapons. If they wrapped around a sword you could yank the flail from the user's hand, never the other way around. It's what Daemon should have done. It rarely happened, but that's the way it went. And a good hard swing with a great sword would rip the flail out and send it flying across the battlefield. So far as hitting yourself with one, never a problem.
This was a really cool video :]
"House of the Dragon is like a weird grape."
-Bilbo Baggins
Yeah, I thought it was a good pilot and (so far) it's not deserving of some of the shade thrown at it as some sort of reflex to the ending of GOT. Lots of people criticising the dragon armour but given how excellent other armours are, it's clear they consulted experts who know their business so I think we can give it a pass on artistic license. Lets be honest, the success or failure of this series isn't going to rest on whether people have faceguards or elbow protection.
Not ever mentioned in the show or books but if dragon fire could vitrify Harenhall-maybe the Targaryen armorers employed the dragons to help forge weld armour into new and complex designs…totally wishful thinking, I know
There are some theories that indicate dragon fire could be a key ingredient in the manufacture of Valerian steel.
Valerian's having wizard-privilege is something I'm ok with
@@samwallaceart288 they were a lesser family of Valerya. They are basically hillbillies with a false sense of superiority who own flying fire breathing coonhounds finding an excuse to hump sisters, cousins and nieces. They would screw their dragons if they could. Is there a westerosi banjo playing as I write this?
hey shad, video idea: medieval transportation?
came to me when you were talking about the carriage. I dont think you have a video on that and I dont really know much about it.
Great video.
9:00 we could argue that they are like police of the city, not an actual standing army. They main concern is dealing thievery and other crimes int the city. You don't have to worry about civilians being excepcionally well trained or armoured so it probably was created to reperesent the city guard and being a kind of uniform, like something the populus must identify and respect/fear more than something that's well made for a battle field.
I feel as if this series is making a a very good start and i look foward to seeing what they do further.
Funny that you mention Flails. I just got a 3 headed Flail in Diablo 2 Resurrected - always found it odd that you could control 1 head, let alone 3 heads.
Let's be honest; the art designers obviously cared most about the shot since GOT. Writers petered out but you notice the detail of the embroidery or an armour change and it's easy to admire the soul that went into it.
Take the council; it would have been so easy to phone it in: but for example Hightower isn't Tywin 2.0 but a man with a smaller badge, his decorative chains echo the maesters you see defer to him every time before the king. His rich clothes are dark grey with hints of green, but his son has the ostentations bright silver (and alludes to Gwaine and The Green Knight).
Even as someone wary of the IP and angry at the intentional waste of GOT; even in season 1 when they didn't have much money I like to think the designers stuck together and are still building on ideas maybe they had years ago.
Thanks for sharing 👍
GRRM mentions losing a horse in a joust. In a Clash of Kings when Jorah is telling Dany his backstory, he talks about Lynnesse being miserable so he enters more jousts to make her happy but he ends up losing and having to ransom some of his horses and armor. And much of the armor in ASOIAF is extremely elaborate: antlers, lion heads, dragon wings, falcon wings, etc
And the list separating the two jousters was added in the Middle Ages to prevent injury since they used to just crash at one other.
In the mystery knight too, Dunk looses against his opponent and has to give up his armour and horse. That was an emotional scene.
21:34 I think they missed an opportunity with the helmet for the dragon's snout on the helmet to be a nasal guard
anytime theres the brigandine with the 'coat of plates' style look with plates on top of the garment with gaps, i usually headcannon the second layer being underneath, sharing the same rivets filling the gaps
I'm in love with this show. And matt Smiths black dragon armor may be stylish and nit optimal but it cool and intimidating and like perfectly done over the top fantasy armor
My impression re: the morning star is that this character was known to use the morning star, like Robert Baratheon was known for his war hammer.
I don't recall any other explicit mention of the use of flail type weapons in the books, and I don't recall any in the original TV either. So I don't have a problem with it's use, because (after I connected the character with the name, having no clear image of the book character) it was expected.
If I had been more on top of it, the weapon would have indicated who he was, but I am not neck deep in ASOIAF at the moment.
Was Dacey Mormont mentioned to have gotten a morning star as a gift in one of the books? I thought I remembered something like that.
Was Dacey Mormont mentioned to have gotten a morning star as a gift in one of the books? I thought I remembered something like that.
Another comment about the rain guard (as a physicist not a medieval expert). If you have water filling the gap of a sheath, I think it could easily create a suction problem where it would be hard to draw the weapon.
something I didn't know till relatively recently, most of the later jousting shields were made of tiles of end-grain wood, like a cutting board. This helped them catch a lance tip better.
That first dudes armour looks like the armour of the elves in the prologue of fellowship
Thinking critically is something you have to learn, ive learnt i should revisit my old favorite medieval movies and rly consider evrything before i declare them "best ever"
The level of violence during the joust was pretty absurd, though I guess it was meant to be more thematic than accurate.
Accurate? Were the dragons accurate?
he shad the budget constraints for the first one is actually very fitting because the kingdom was in debt so they literally couldn't afford it lol