Suze Orman: Why I Hate the FIRE Movement | Afford Anything Podcast (Audio-Only)
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- čas přidán 30. 09. 2018
- A few weeks ago, Suze Orman's team reached out to me and asked if I'd be interested in chatting with Suze on my podcast.
"Um, duh," I replied.
Suze Orman is one of the most famous voices in the world of personal finance. From 2002 to 2015, she hosted The Suze Orman Show on CNBC. She's the author of 10 mega-bestselling books, she wrote a financial column for O, The Oprah Magazine, and she's made multiple appearances on The Oprah Winfrey Show.
I turned to Twitter and Facebook and asked my community, "What would you like me to ask Suze?"
One question stood out far ahead of all others in popularity: What does Suze Orman think about the FIRE movement?
I opened with that question. And Suze's response shocked me.
"I hate it," she replied. "I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. And let me tell you why."
That's a direct quote. (Really.)
She spent the next 30 minutes explaining why she thinks pursuing FIRE could be the biggest mistake of a person's life.
Well, then.
Why does Suze Orman hate the FIRE movement?
Find out in today's episode, and join the discussion and help spread the FIRE by sharing your thoughts on today's episode.
____
Subscribe via iTunes: affordanything.com/itunes
Show notes & comments: affordanything.com/episode153
#affordanything #suzeorman #financialindependence
She spent $2.5 million on her moms healthcare because she COULD. Sit down Suze.
Tell her.
Exactly. She could. Could you? Or would your mother suffer needlessly??? Sorry, but I agree with Suze.
My name is Steve Rogers not true. How old are you? If at 30 you put only $100 per month into a retirement account you’ll have $1.1 million at 70. Can you spend $100/mo less? How bout $200? Then you’d have more than $2 million. Discipline, my friend. If you don’t like Suze, read Tony Robbins “Money.” He gives examples of low income people investing correctly. You can do it!!
My name is Steve Rogers I’m so sorry to hear about your Dad. I think what you said is exactly Suzes point. I have a friend who is a cancer coach who helps people. Let me know if you want his info. He’s free.
I'm Star lord legendary outlaw once you get that sick the employee benefits stop. employee benefits only work for the healthy and the moderately ill. trust me been there, spouse had brain cancer.
If you need 30 or 40k a month to deal with all these disasters I don't think a job is going to save you either.
That's exactly what I was thinking. National averages for salaries aren't as high as she is saying you need.
Darren O Reilly lol
Darren O Reilly if you get sick your job won’t save you.
This is actually a super valid point lol
Ha nice.
She says 80k isn't enough when you get older, yet the vast majority of old people are living on a lot less than that.
You don't want to see where some of them have to live. #socialworker #cockroachmotels #miserablenursinghomes
Meh. I think we have more control over our expenses than we think. I would rather go without treatment and be dead than give all my money to the health care industry. I know people can't always control that, but we can more than we think.
+Dalton Beauregard
So will your portfolio.
Right now they are, but what about 30, 40, 50 years from now?
Meh. For large items(homes/cars) probably yeah. EVERYTHING else is cheaper. I remember in 1976 seeing a $400 electric bill. Today you can still get a $400 electric bill if you are super sloppy. Clothes cheaper. Food(except meat) cheaper.
So the issue is which is more risky-living a cheaper lifestyle or row slave row, keep putting $ in your 401k and watch a market crash take it away..
I think you know the answer. Its not what you make or your investment returns its how much you spend that determines solvency.
Some people just don't know when ENOUGH is ENOUGH.
Nobody wants to be the richest guy in the graveyard.
she's Bernie Madoff's twin/scammer
THIS
You don't have to be a rich ghost. I plan to give any money I have left to nieces and nephews so they can enjoy security.
@@philmarsh7723 They'll just blow it all on parties and vacations and expensive watches like almost every person who ever won the lottery. It seems to me that the skills needed to hold on to a fortune are the same as those needed to earn a fortune in the first place, so maybe an even better gift to your nieces and nephews would be a thorough course in FIRE. If I had a time machine, I would go back and give myself that course, and a good deal of other stern but well meaning advice.
@@philmarsh7723 educate your nephews and nieces how to be financially literate if you plan to leave them your money...the money you will leave them could make or break them...so be a blessing to your future generation..but its so nice of you to think about nieces and nephews...
She's still around? I thought she faded out a few years ago with her bogus debit card. Most people don't earn 80k a year in their 30s so how the hell is 80k not enough for retirement. Why so high? I know people who are living on 40k in retirement. She's delusional. It's easy for people like her who got rich selling ideas to people.
I agree. I thought the same thing. Most people can leave very well at 80K a year.
800k elderly are facing eviction after the moratorium expires. Yes 8-0-0 K! They did not realize how expensive & predatory the USA would become. Yes, not everyone can earn 80k in their 30s ... but every couple can earn 80k and spend like one person.
Takeaway: I need 100 million to retire.
Haha haha... 😂. Exactly
According to aunty Suzy, yes! 🤣
Takeaway: Every day you wake up healthy, thank God ... and go to work.
Don’t retire early. You could die at anytime.
😂
Lol!
😁
true dat hahaha
So you like to die at work in misery?
"$2M is pennies"...lol pretty much lost everyone. Using the 4% rule, the vast majority of people can easily live on $80k a year.
Exactly.
For someone who is so financially literate, she really spends a lot of time talking in anecdotes instead of hard numbers right? Maybe someone should send her a copy of the Trinity Study :)
well, she said $80K is not enough 😁 I think it may be not enough thinking about this for a bit... my monthly Dom Perignon and caviar habit is expensive. Combine that with quarterly trips balanced between Lake Como, Aspen and the Maldives and I can see it that I am going to run out....
Yea. I'm a regular person so that's a good comfortable income.
Bro, just to get $10m for you retire like Suzie. So easy! 🤣🤣🤣
If her stance is that you will need $10m+ to retire even in your '60s then basically every human on this planet is screwed
"I compounded my money. I lived in small houses. I didn't spend when I didn't need to. I lived within my means." That's what the people of the FIRE movement do and will continue to do in retirement.
Some rich people are just pissed that us slaves have found a loop hole and how to use the system to get out of it. Stings, hey?
I love this comment. There is a huge paradigm shift happening 🙌🎉
Precisely!
Love it, thanks!
I love how:
A) You safely brought up the 4% rule that most people on FIRE believe in (3% from you just to gauge her reaction), and she tried to destroy it with fear mongering.
B) When you mentioned her earlier life of quitting college and becoming a waitress in Berkeley, her position became, "Do as I say, not as I do".
I think Suze Orman is not financial adviser, she is a comedian
She's a lying fraud. A waitress.
I heard she shaves her pubes into the shape of a swastika.
hahha
Hehe, i really thought that i was listening to a stand up comedian show...
Why does she keep saying a common person is going to have 80 thou a year when they are older..makes no,sense...most regular folks are lucky to have 25 thou a year..jeez..
I respect Suze's opinion, but she lives in a different world than the vast majority of common folk. Many of us work for a corporation that treats us like we're expendable and easily replaced. Suze is in control of everything she does. Great for her! Most of us are controlled by our corporate jobs. It's hard to be passionate about that. That's why we work towards FIRE; so we can gain control over our lives before becoming senior citizens.
Yes, exactly. The "do what you're passionate about" crowd makes it sound easier to earn money from your passions than it actually is.
Ken R. Excellent answer
Ken R. - Agree. Even if your passionate about your occupation, your employer (unless self employed) controls your most precious asset... time... Do agree tax rate most probably will go up increase in future. Sound like Suzy is using scare tactics and expected us to work until death. Sorry... Not happening.
I thought she meant unplanned for crises like getting injured or sick. But maybe it's shortsighted to assume that most FIRE devotees/followers are planning on retiring for the rest of their lives. Maybe what most of them want is a planned-for career change, and they just happen to have $500,000 saved up to do it with.
Btw, you can buy disability insurance.
I was going to submit my letter of resignation to my boss but thankfully I didn't after watching this. I really never thought about needing $30,000 to $40,000 a month in case my mother get's ill or another $300,000 in case of floods. Now I feel so safe that I didn't quit my $30,000/year job so that I'm prepared for all these million dollar disasters if it should so happen. Thanks Suzie, you're a life saver.
😂😂
@@snatchinitback4635 yes it was
🤣🤣🤣 Exactly. Suze goes on to talk about needing 10 million dollars in order to retire comfortably. What the heck is she talking about? Are you buying a new Benz every other year?
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
When my mom got sick from COVID and we debated how much it was going to cost to put her in a rest home (after she was released from the hospital) as an option until she got back up on her feet, and I heard that it was going to cost about 9K for a month, I GLADLY gave up my time to go take care of her til she was back to strength. Cost - $0 for mom - except for some supplies. Don't forget about the value of family/friends.
Suze unwittingly just gave the best FIRE promo ever. "Bad stuff can happen to you in life! Terrible things! They can happen tomorrow!!"
Absolutely, Suze, and that's why the 99.99% of us that don't live on a private island and fly on private planes and call the shots in everything we do at work don't want to rot away in a cubicle until we are too old to enjoy life!!!
I think she is confusing FIRE with Lean Fire, those are the folks who save up like $100k and decide to retire and live in a van down by the river. The regular FIRE community is using the 4% rule which is likely several million dollars invested, and then there is Fat FIRE which usually $5 mil or more invested. I just baffles me how she thinks she is helping people by telling them to not think outside of the box and to get back in their cubicle and keep working until they die.
Exactly!
I have been a hospice social worker for over 10 years. Although I can respect Suze's caution on FIRE, I can say that a lot of what she is saying about care for the elderly is NOT ACCURATE. Her interview is very FEAR driven of the "unknown". I've dealt with hundreds of individuals and familes at end of life needing care. Private hire care is expensive (30K is a bit outrageous, perhaps her mom's location). I'm in SoCal which is expensive to live but 24 hour care is roughly 20K here, but there are less expensive options that does NOT include being in a nursing home or at home 24hour caregivers. Nursing homes are typically for low-income people who are on Medi-Cal/Medi-Caide and just pay a share of cost. I never recommend people who have money to go to a nursing home, there are better options. Anyway, I believe FIRE is possible, you just have to plan right. Just buy long-term care insurance, that solves the 20K-30K private hire cost. She is trying to put fear in people, and yes things can "happen", but everyone's situation is different. Also, isn't FIRE about living below means? I don't think FIRE folks preach living on islands and flying on private jets. She does not really understand the FIRE movement.
I agree with Suzy - you and you people are stealing from society - stealing from hard working folks drive up inflation in unfair way - riding on the back of people from the PAST WHO HAD BEEN BUILDING AND leaving NOTHING FOR THE FUTURE generation --- it is individual thinking vs collective thinking --- I do understand society and economics and ETHICS you can not ffoooolllll meeee .....speak that to CHINESE IN CHINA WILL YOU ---. they do the FIRE in a good way.....if all those Chinese have not worked that hard- the world would not have been as RICH as WE ARE NOW...the new Chinese are stealing and bringing the world out of balance...SUZY is a FIRE person WITH A FIRE MINDSET. She saves alot and works alot.
“Just buy long term care insurance- I sell this - it’s unaffordable for most and too many usually have health issues to qualify if they wait to long to buy it…just my two cents and in 20 years in home care and medical costs will be astronomical! So I agree with her- I’m in this industry on the insurance side- I sell medicare and health. Medicare alone will be so expensive if it’s even around- it’s already close to 200 bucs a month for people on the lower poverty scale! And that’s not including a supplement if you go that way. Also many don’t take into account- many seniors choose to not grow old together..you may have a spouse in your 30’s to help raise the kids but when you are 60 you may be single and have to afford housing on your own. Many many women are in this situation that are my clients and they are not enjoying their golden years let me tell you! It’s extremely sad. Many were not “fear” driven enough and they are paying dearly for it.
Yes it is, disappointing
24 hr in home care in NY is costing my MIL $3-4k month (varies due to the aid's OT). Split the difference and call it $175,000 per year coming from her savings/investments. Assisted living facility is roughly $8-10K month if you don't need memory care. Similar costs for my father, who fortunately had purchased long term care insurance before he retired.
Suzy has turned into an elitist....... don’t bother listening. When she said the average person needs 5 million to retire, I knew she was in la la land.
I concur! She's preaching the gospel of consumerism.
@Michael Walker I'm sorry but 5million isn't enough in this case.
Remember she’s discussing the FIRE movement. Retiring early with only one million is risky. I agree if you’re retiring early or at any age, 5 million is a lot smarter. Most people don’t have anything when they retire bc they made excuses and didn’t invest. I look at clients spending and can always see ways to save in order to buy a house or invest. Part of my coaching gears clients not just to buy a house but to keep saving after that in order to invest. Most people don’t look at their spending and are shocked to discover things like how much they spent on meals out, coffee, cocktails or clothes. These are all areas that can be reduced in order to invest. The FIRE movement has the FI part right. Be thrifty, save and invest. The retire early with only a million is what Suze (and I) disagree with. Everyone who is defensive in the comments probably doesn’t have appropriate investments and doesn’t realize it is possible. Where there’s a will, there’s a way!!
@BARACKOBAMA I am 46 I only have 30,000 cash nothing else. I am a first-generation in USA. Plus I live in Brooklyn New York!
Been watching, listening, and paying attention to all of predictions and forecasts since early Covid. He hasn't disappointed yet 👌
Well said! I am also here to learn how to invest after listening to a lady on tv talk about the importance of investing and how she made 7 figures in 3 months, somehow the video taught me nothing and left me even more confused, I'm a newbie and I'm open to ideas on how to invest for retirement
@@harrisonjamie794 Despite the economic crisis and the rate of unemployment now is the best time to invest
@@harrisonjamie794 Thank you, Going through her profile on her webpage out of curiosity, and surprisingly she seems proficient. I appreciate this.
@@georgerobinson2021 MATHA ALONSO HARA is one of the most reliable and trustworthy brokers I know
Scammers! 😡😡😡😡😡
She has 30M networth. If she had 300M, she would proly say 20-30M is not enough to retire. Human nature
According to this source, she's up to $35M now:
www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-businessmen/wall-street/suze-orman-net-worth/
35 000 000
lol So true
Lifestyle inflation I guess
300M is chump change, you all need to keep working.
This was the lolziest hour I've spent on youtube in a long time. "I started to become the nation's expert on long term care insurance." "I don't speak in words, I speak in TRUTHS." "I AM the money-matriarch of the WORLD. Most people say I'm the personal finance expert of the world." Grandiose delusions are often an early sign of Alzheimer's Disease.
Just got to this part. Yikes!
Wow. I don't think 30 million is enough for anyone this pessimistic.
Brock Steffen she says she has 30 million. Her problem is she has seen the world at 35, 45, and 55 and it looks different then
Nah 30M aint enough. Even 30B aint enough. 30T maybe, or not.
As another commenter said, Suze may hate the FIRE movement because it steals her thunder. If more people adopt the FIRE movement, they really won't need Suze--they'll be way past the stuff she teaches.
FIRE movement is to broad and undefinable to really say it steals her thunder. she says be an adult and know there are unforeseen that can happen in your life and be prepared...
Yes!
Awesome point
You hit the nail.
Suze Orman teaches people how to survive, but not how to thrive. I'm past survival, I need more.
Size has trouble with math. According to her no one should ever retire. Her examples are insane, more fear spreading.
If anything it is a reason why you SHOULD pursue FIRE. The sooner you get to FIRE the safer you will be. She also keeps saying you cant retire on $80k or whatever per year, yet people live on far less than that.
@@bradbarber799 *42k/year is plenty here in the South (GA)!* With a paid off house, decent food garden, no kids @ home anymore & investing in your health (exercise, dentist, etc.) when you were young. Plenty! She's just a delusional rich b*tch 🙄
*edit:* of course we adjust for inflation over time so 45-50k
"Work til you die so you can save in case you die"
Lmao 😂
Nobody could have said it better. 😂😂😂
😂🤣
😂🤣😂🤣 that’s a good one!
She has lost touch with reality.
Who has 250k a year for retirement in their account? What's her audience?
Joan Ferreira her audience is really dumb people with decent jobs
Joan
The nutter voices in her head.
People I know retire well with $750K that’s AUD
Joan Ferreira I guess the same people who will be “ Tired of traveling the world and living on a private island”🤦🏾♀️
She brags about her money like a rap artist. 😞
😂
For real.
I think she secretly just can't stand the idea of anyone being happy until they have their own private island and private jet. You may be ADDICTED TO MORE, Suze, personally I think a twelve step program would do you some good, but most of us believe that there's more to life than perpetual slavery until we need a wheelchair and a colostomy bag. You do you, I guess.
I did not think it was possible for someone to be so conceited
Suze talked about the power of compounding. Saving and investing while you’re young. That sounds like FIRE to me. 80% of build financial security is about spending less than you make. You’re either building your net worth or building your income base or doing both at the same time.
She talked about all the possible catastrophic events. Our lives are dynamic with lots of changes along the way. Getting F-money means we don’t have to continue working for an employer we don’t like just so we have insurance coverage. Having income that isn’t dependent on the 9-5 means we have flexibility to help our special needs kids or aging parent.
I do believe she has a good point,
FIRE is in direct competition with her job lol. How dare you tell ppl how to retire early, save money, invest, budget for trips and items for free when i make books and tv shows about this for money!!
elreytriton absolutely agreed
I'm not really sure how it's in direct competition with her job... I think she's all set financially lol
Yup it's not a competition for her, she's already well off and does give pretty sound financial advice. But yes fire does have upsides too
Many people in retirement age don't have $2M in retirement...so wouldn't hitting $2M early in life still put you further ahead than most?
Yes, it would, provided you keep those withdrawals to 4% or less and keep the money in broad based, low cost, stock/bond funds (at least 50% stocks). In most scenarios, if you keep at least 50% in stocks, you'll end up with MORE in inflation adjusted terms after 30 years than you started with. And if you're even a little bit more conservative in your withdrawals than the 4% rule dictates (say, you skip inflation adjustments for a few years if your portfolio is down), your portfolio can really go bonkers over time.
The bonds give stability in a down stock market and relative regular payments. Dividend stocks still collapse or cut dividends.
Yes. So keep working and keep compounding, so you have more and can live the same lifestyle and be prepared if something goes wrong.
If the market drops down 25% for a few years and you are withdrawing during those down years, isn't that going to really hurt your nest egg? I feel like the problem is that you are required to expect the market remains stable and your expenses are predictable for such a long time when compared to someone retiring at a typical retirement age. It just seems there would be so much more peace of mind if spend more time contributing and less time withdrawing. If I were to save enough early, I'd probably just change careers to something that pays less but is a little more enjoyable rather than retire completely.
Paula's audience is much more creative, self-reliant, and determined. Suze is talking for the other audience...
They are creative enough to cut their expenses if necessary!
William
Middle age women aren't really like that.
That makes sense 😁
Wandering man speak for yourself.
“ When you play with FIRE you will get burned!!!” Don’t hate Suze because she is an ultra realist. She was able to quit because she has A LOT more than $2 million. Don’t forget that a lot of industries do not want to hire people over 50. We live to our 80s. when you take a sabbatical like I did, and you do go back to work it is harder to get the hang of the skills that your job requires. Also, My dad needed 3 vascular surgeries at the age of 71 . You never know what the future brings. Suze has saved me from doing certain mistakes. I love her! I love the interview with David Bach too!
A worthwhile conversation to listen to no matter your opinion. Thanks for being willing to record this and put it out there Paula!
I agree! Suze preaches a lot of the principles of the FIRE movement, but more as a way of living in general. I read her “9 steps” book when it came out and immediately upped my 401k contribution and I was 23 years old. I’ll always thank her for that. One thing she didn’t mention that I think of often is that all the FIRE people I follow make money from me following them :) so they really are not retried, their job is selling me on retirement.
I always considered the FIRE movement about having enough money so you can pursue your dream job or have leverage in your current job, not necessarily never working again and sitting around or jet setting all over the world. I feel like it's about empowering yourself to take control of your life, not giving up and hoping for the best. I think most people in the fire community have thought about what health care after fire looks like, or emergency expenses. Honestly her comments seem to come from information she was told vs. actual research into FI. I know a lot of guys from the military who joined at 18 and "retired" after 20 years with enough savings so they could do what they wanted to do without worrying what will happen if it doesn't work out. This seems to be the attitude of 90% of the fire community.
From someone who was well on his way until my wife got sick, could no longer work, had 2 small kids to raise almost by myself, what Suze is saying IS REAL. It is hard explaining this dynamic to people who are well and haven’t lived through what she is saying. I had my job with health insurance but that didn’t cover traveling all over the country seeking a specialist and multiple surgeries the insurance didn’t want to cover, and then the after care, (drugs). I hope for the good of humanity someone is listening. For many that bread and butter job you hate does give security. Think twice before walking away on your own volition.
Suze Orman is a complete scammer. She created a predatory debit card with lots of fees targeting financially vulnerable people, claiming it would help them build a credit score (which was a lie), and then keeping any money that was left in their accounts when she suddenly closed the business. She is good at one thing: manipulating a lot of people into believing she was a financial expert when she's just a narcissistic con artist.
Either way, this video is good for lighting the fear of god in people that need it.
That was so long ago and the card did everything besides that. And was only a brief time in her career. She's done way more for many people for free. And gave out free advice. But if you want to focus on that one issue go ahead
Suze is so out of touch with reality it's scary. She seems to have no clue that most people retire with less than $200K and the median income in many States is less than 50K. Do you know how many people will never reach one million in their 401Ks. She really has been rich for too long and has no clue what is going on with the average working person. If you want real investing advice, listen to Jack Bogle. If you want real personal finance advice listen to David Bach but definitely don't listen to anything she says. Unless you get off on Gloom and Doom scenarios.
The thing about her Gloom & Doom scenarios is that if things get as bad as some of the scenarios she presented (which is definitely possible), all the money in the world isn't going to fix it for you.
Exactly. I've been investing for 25 years and there has never been a shortage of these gloom and doomers. It really serves no purpose other than discourage people trying to save for their futures. If what she says comes to pass, we might as well just stock up on Soylent and weapons. Having said that, one of the more important things I have learned over my 25 years of investing is who to listen to and who to ignore. Suze gets a huge IGNORE from me and Warren Buffett and Jack Bogle get a huge LISTEN from me.
Most People are Broke...by the way Stephen.....
True, but you don't need to have what she is saying to live a decent life.
Sorry, but people do not want to be broke. People want to build wealth; but not everyone has good mentors or the will power to put in the effort and the risk.
I can't even make it to the end! I need to watch John Bogle videos to get this crap out of my head!! I suggest you do the same! I always thought she was a little nutty, but after this, I believe she really lost her mind!
Agreed, I could barely make it to end because beyond her criticisms about FIRE, I guess her advice isn't advanced enough for me right now. Still great that Paula had the guts to bring her on the show---Love Afford Anything!
stephen geraci except bogle got rich selling index funds, not investing in them.
The power of compounding works in index funds. It is not an overnight get rich quick scheme, but I do have close to a million in my index funds and a paid off house worth close to $660K. So I may not be one of the richest folks around, I certainly can retire with dignity which was my goal. P.S. I did this all on a very modest income.
Suzie takes every chance to promote herself. Books, podcasts, blah,blah, blah..
I could only take about 3 minutes of her talking, I was trying to read the comments and she was really annoying me.
I was so impressed with how you handled the interview with total professionalism, I also see both sides reasons and concerns. However, I do realize that Life happens when you are making other plans. We are not guaranteed a tomorrow. Excellent! Thank you!
If you want to live like Suze then you can never retire. But if you can live a much, much simpler life, it's very possible.
She may not hate FIRE as much as she says. It's possible she just understands how controversial statements get attention for things like new books (she's promoting a new book). Many of her points are valid things to consider regardless of when you plan to retire. I have a hard time hearing some of them because of the way she delivers her message.
I agree, sometimes is about the delivery. I dont think shes crazy like many people are saying, shes just a pessimist. The points are somewhat valid but also valid at any age, "what if something happens" well anything can happen any time. You could save your entire life then die. Or you can save half your life and not die but be seriously injured. Either way you're screwed. The fire movement, I believe, is about maximizing the enjoyment of your life instead of killing yourself so that you can have a bunch of money and no more time to enjoy it.
@@dcemtp1 Yes, it is like the old proverb.
You need energy, money, and time to enjoy life.
YOUNG PEOPLE: Most have enough energy and time but few have enough money.
MIDDLE AGED PEOPLE: Most have enough energy and many have enough money but few have enough time (job, kids, etc.).
RETIRED PEOPLE: Many have enough time and money, but few have enough energy.
You have to figure out which stage of life you can tweak to get into the "few" category for that phase of life.
If you are among the lucky "few" to be born into a lot of wealth, you can do it as a Young person.
If you choose the right profession that pays well and still affords time, you can enjoy as a Middle aged person.
If you maintain good health and do the first two parts OK, so as to have enough money, then you may be able to enjoy Retirement. This is quite hard.
FIRE folks try to bring in Retirement at an earlier age in life, to get rid of the "energy" problem in Retired people. They automatically solved the "time" problem by being retired. The question then becomes, can you save enough to live a good life long term and still have enough "money" to be able to enjoy the early retirement.
Ok, I can't take anymore of this. "I, I, I, I, me me me. I did this. I did that. Everybody loves me. I know everything."
Shameless self promotion
53:45 - I, I, I, me, me, my, my, "I'm doing great...I'm making millions and millions of dollars selling books...I'm selling millions of millions of books...and now everyone makes me want to be on television with them...you can hear the passion in my voice...you can still hear the passion in my voice...I want all of you to let me be your teacher. I am the money matriarch of the world." I came here to learn about finance, not to worship someone.
What a great episode!! Such wisdom on both sides!! Just wanted to point out that, although I deeply respect Suze, she did not became multimillionaire by maxing her 401k and Roth, but by selling millions and millions of copies of her books and building a brand around herself. That said, good for her!
Correct. Not everyone wants to become a "brand". Good for her, but not for me.
I asked Dr. Evil how much one needs to retire, hr said..... $1 BILLION dollars
Here’s the thing: if something happens to you to the point where it mobilizes you, that’s makes you eligible for disability, which then makes you eligible for Medicare part A and part B, so that basically covers all your medical costs.
Also, there’s life insurance, that pays for a nursing home if you need it, and most Medicare advantage plans cover home health care completely free of charge, so idk what she’s talking about.
I’m a licensed insurance agent and I specialize in Medicare plans, so she didn’t seem very knowledgeable in that aspect
Except that you don't qualify for medicare until you're 65.
Are you talking about Medicaid if you're disabled and younger than 65?
And (speaking from experience) even over 65, on Medicare, only a few home health care "visits" are covered.
@@candecarro Agree 100% Medicare costs me 10K/ur with ERMA ect. I do not know of a medicare advantage plan that provides for home care and nursing home care. She is broker maybe she can provide us the link. I have paid millions for my parents and sister hit my a drunk for their medical care and for a sister who died of cancer. I fortunately have been healthy my entire life 70s and still work over 60 hr/wk which has given me the means to provide for others.. FIRE is a great concept but IMO works only if you have no problems in life. Good luck.
@@cerbico12 Wow. What a good heart you have. I feel fairly certain that if there had been a way for your loved ones to have been covered, you would have found it!
Long term care was a lifesaver for us in the two years before my husband passed-- but we were fortunate to be able to afford it! And I think most LTC plans have a qualifying period upon when elegibility "starts" where you have to pay all your own expenses out-of-pocket. Ours (John Hancock) was 100 days.
If Medicare exist then. It is about to disappear PEOPLE LISTEN!!!
If I need 350k a year for medical reasons, no job is going to keep me above water. If I make 75k a year, after 5 years of those expenses I'll only be in debt $2 million rather than $2.5 million.
I might as well just quit work now!
Ever heard of insurance?
She did mention insurance, and that is a valid point.
Apparently not! 😂 once you're FI, it's all on you, bruh!
Mark Peacock: With reference to what?
Sooo.....as someone on the cusp of fifty I am thinking Suze had some good points, but took them to an extreme. I think she brought up issues most don’t think about when they are thirty. I know I didn’t. You can’t prepare for everything, but you should prepare as much as you can before taking the plunge into FIRE. You have to weigh your costs/benefits of continued working, and get as much enjoyment as you can with the time you have. Know what is important to you.
Finally! Someone who gets it. I'm 3q and I understood what she was saying. Especially when she talked about needing repairs in the roof. Most people aren't thinking like this but suze is saying what my mother and other older people say. You don't really know what's its like to be older until you get there and being older is expensive. Plus we know now that everything goes up but the wage. We know that recessions are more and more common and we know that our houses and cars always need repairs whether we are working or not
Need Suze and a round table of FI experts, financial planners to have a discussion. We all need this.
This really is a fear mentality. All of those horrible things that could happen to people while working or during early retirement. I don't see that working while that happens making a huge difference. Some people may have significantly better health insurance through an employer then on their own but that’s not a given for everyone. If you are significantly ill or injured you will often loose your job and benefits over time. I am an individual who was born and lives with a disability. I see being FI as a strong hedge against many challenges I face currently or in the future.
Me, too. I have been living with multiple sclerosis for 13 years. I'm playing the cards I was dealt just fine.
I think she just wants to make sure that people have a good cushion. Also, keep in mind that inflation will eat into whatever you save up. Lots of people might think they have enough to save up and then when they don't what do they do? They start getting upset. Things usually take more than what you expect. Always shoot higher than what you need. $500,000 is not enough to retire on, if you're looking investments, especially if investments fail (which they have done for many people). We're acting as if retirement accounts have never been wiped out. They have. Millions of people have lost their life savings over a bad business scandal, or a bad investment, and these are things that are not insured by an FDIC. That money you have (if not insured) can be lost. She's being realistic. I actually appreciate that Suze is not just telling people what they want to hear.
@@cartonet8186 It's good to see the other side of the coin. I sure didn't think about all the AI coming into play and affecting taxes! Everything leaves a ripple.
I found the first portion really hard to listen to when Suze was incredibly negative speaking of thousands of what if's while speaking of her own immense wealth, but I'm glad I listened until the end because she actually had some investing advice from her history as an investor. I can imagine many quitting listening to this after the first ten minutes.
I still liked this episode. I had scorn this episode for the longest time because I heard horrible things about her views. I finally put the time in to listen because it is necessary to hear different viewpoints then your own. What Suze said still resonates with the main theme of FIRE. The RE throws a lot of people off because they think retirement is sitting still and drinking an umbrella drink on the beach.
I never heard Paula Pant before but through MMM heard about this. She's a great interviewer. Very positive, smart, listening. Great rapport with Suze and so it is a great conversation. But I am laughing so hard: "I sold 5 homes. I got rid of 5 cars." I wonder how many she kept.
Thanks for pushing against her points in a way that gets her to lay out her logic and math. Very helpful for putting her view into context. Personally, I'm pursuing the FI part of FIRE but kudos and good luck to anyone who has early retirement as a goal. I'm rooting for anyone who's actively pursuing their goals, whatever they are and wherever they lead.
One thing that she doesn't seem seem consider is quality of life. When I'm 60, even 40, I'm going to value the experiences (travel, friends, etc) that I invested in much more than the potential $ that I could have made from letting it compound. I do both, but decided to not to let those experiential opportunities go by. There's a balance to strike between saving for the future and living in the moment.
Also, what's up with all of her bragging near the end? About 80% the way through. We get it Suzy, you capitalized and optimized your reputation. Congrats. Popularity isn't proof of a message's truth value.
I think what most people miss about FIRE is that we still plan on growing our income but on our own terms. The arrogance started once she started talking...this was hard to listen to and I’m at the start.
She also lied about giving people advice at age 50-55 and then again at age 70. That’s 15-20 years, yet her show lasted 13 years from 2002-2015.
So she literally lied at the very beginning while being condescending.
29:39 Orman can't seem to comprehend that FIRE is not as much about retiring early as it is about making right saving/investment decisions so early in life, well ahead of time, in order to enjoy new opportunities, including: finding a job you love, starting your own business, investing in real estate, or traveling the world for a couple years before returning back to work ( much better to do so when you are in your 30's than 70's). She is definitely a smart person but very authoritarian and grudging due to her age, mentality, and background. She could have won so many ppl if she was open-minded and could entertain other points of view besides her own. I think she might be just a little concerned that people learn quicker and have more resources than ever to decide what will work best for them, due to which she might be loosing her customer base in the future due to disconnect.
And by the way “hate” is a very strong word for someone who is riding a democratic horse. Overall sounded like Suze couldn’t contain her negativity. She better not end up like Adolf Merckle.
She has some good points: Don’t shrink “enough.” Expect the worst. Use your able time wisely.
Usually, I enjoy listening to Suze. But wow! She’s so infatuated with herself and her life. Unfortunately she’s turned into a typical celebrity.....everything is all about you! She talks down to everyone....especially men!
I realize she is pointing out worst case scenarios, but it is true to an extent. I would venture to say the most negative comments are coming from considerably younger individuals. I listen to Paula, I am also 59 years old. You get a different perspective with age. Not necessarily negative, but much more realistic. I did not plan on my first born being premature and spending 19 weeks in an NICU, but it happened. I didn't plan on a divorce, but it happened.
My older brother retired at about 52, he had saved a lot and was a very successful business man. He never counted on meeting and marrying a younger woman (15 years younger), or the health problems in-laws had that left he and his wife responsible for debts and expenses. He is in his 70's now and had to go back to work. Finding a job that pays much at all in your 70's is very tough. Retirement has a different meaning to each of us. I respect her opinion but you don't want to retire "hoping you have enough". Like any household or automotive project, estimate what you think it will cost and at least double it, then it will be a bit more accurate.
Think of your personal budget. Look at last months credit card bill. What was on it that was not planned for? Then look at all your credit card statements for the past year......how much stuff was not planned for? Stuff happens..
Laurenceville Garage yes, you will need more than you plan. I agree with the comments about the advantages of compound interest. As for me, I will retire at the age of 52 with half salary for the rest of my life and VA benefits for life. I believe in residual income for life coupled with “passive“ income from real estate. Once you are FI, you can slow down. I just won’t HAVE to work. I won’t be working for money. Also, if you’re so passionate about retiring early, you may need to make a change now to a career, job, city, etc that is aligned with your core values.
@@cityparkproperties7001 totally agree with you and laurenceville garage. I'm 34 and I think Suze is right. People don't like to hear that what they're doing is not a good idea. They don't like to think about the entire picture either, no matter what salary or tax bracket you're in. She's not saying work forever. She's saying either FIRE it and do what you love for work, or have more than 2M. Guess the FIRE crowd will see when they're at that point.
I'm so glad to see some people in this comment section that actually listened to what she said said. I cant understand how what she is saying is so controversial because she is right. Getting older is expensive and there is one thing we know in life is that the only thing constant is change. Roofs need to be fixed, piped break, cars die, people get sick and I would rather take advantage of compound interest then knowingly on purpose stop contributing if I dont have to or they haven't forced me out.
Paula's positivity and skills as a host shined. I am grateful that Suze paved the way for women in finance in the '90s. After getting a degree in Finance, I decided to not work in the industry partly because of the shady practices she has mentioned for years. She stayed in the industry and sold the products for years. She said in the interview, the reason she wrote her first book was to look credible to her clients. She said she did many podcasts that day and planned to do more. Being tired makes people grumpy and say things that don't make sense. Her goal of going on the podcasts was to sell her books!
This is too much of a monologue. I feel like she wasn't challenged on anything. Was just a sales speech for her own endavours. Extremely worrying that a personal finance "guru" can't grasp people being able to live off of
Great talk. REAL. My grandma is in a nursing home. She didn’t save enough for retirement. She pays $10,000 a month for the nursing home care. What Suze says is real talk. We have a friend whose wife has stage 4 breast cancer. He pays $15,000 a month for her medication. He is filing for bankruptcy this year. They are both retired too! They blew through their investment portolio already.
I know she took a lot of flak for this podcast, but from what I've heard so far (haven't listened to the whole thing yet) it sounds like she's focusing on these young 20-30-somethings who might have managed to amass a few hundred thousand dollars, or maybe up to $1M, and suddenly think they can retire. While they're doing great, for their age group, there is an awful lot of uncertainty, if you go out that early. And, once you have to start living off of that money, with no wage income coming in, it might deplete quicker than you think!
I see it this way too. What she said shouldn't be considers controversial
And yet they are young enough to work part time
Suze's words came to pass in just 5 years.
Inflation is here and people are struggling on $100,000. Now. $80, 000 on a family of 4 is poverty now especially in California.
If a pole goes through your windscreen and paralyzes you and you have to pay a massive medical bill how does your $50k per year job working for the man help with that at all? That's if you can find any employer at all that's willing to hire you when you're paralyzed.
$2 million is nothing? It's only 20 years working for the man at a very well paid job where you make $100k. Where do you think someone who has such a terrible accident is going to be getting $2 million from working?
If working is so important for someone who has an accident what is stopping me from starting working after I have that accident?
31:30 that's exactly the point of financial independence
From 57:00 she just talks about why you should prepare for shit and insure valuable stuff
She lost me when she said 80k a year wasn't enough.
During the covid i make nothing
she says 80K not enough and 2 million is peanuts!!!!
People always ask us how we can travel all the time while still in our 30s and then I explain passive income and thier eyes glaze over. We focus on the financial independence since I retired early and it made me depressed. Now we create travel videos on our channel showing people what is possible.
This is a great example of why people are leaving traditional media outlets behind and turning to the internet for useful, practical advice. Here we have a TV personality bulldozing her way through this podcast using strawman, appeal to emotion, anecdotal and special pleading arguments in order to effectively plug her own book and downplay what we all know is a simple truth backed up by basic mathematics.
Why don't you, erudite and seeming clear thinking person? It's a reflection on me and CZcams that you seem to be the other critical thinking person in this lovely unreality. I liked your response and hope you retain your brain cells, they're becoming an endangered species...lol jk thx for reinforcement in humor and truth...
Finances are not just math, real life and emotions play an even bigger role
I liked hearing her opinion even if I don't agree. Nice to get a different perspective
Agreed!
She is a con artist. I would not follow her advice rather than educating yourself and using Vanguard.
@@jaytouvelle2359 or Fidelity. It's better for us "Baby Investors" ime.
I consider myself to be a member of the FIRE community, but wonder if Suze might have a point with regard to early retirement and Medicare. I'm wondering if you don't plan to spend a substantial part of your financial life contributing to Social Security and Medicare the way employed workers do, whether you need to make alternative plans (e.g. save a lot more) to compensate?
Are you counting towards, e.g., the $5600 a month for the memory care ward for my demented mother? We lucked out that her sister left her enough (we pray!) to keep her there till the cancer kills her (she's in hospice too). There is no way POSSIBLE for my sisters or me to keep her in our houses -- we did not buy or plan for a wheelchair-bound, almost blind, mostly deaf, demented loved one to live with us. (Does anyone?!) And $5.6k is a LOWER than average cost for such care... "Oh, that won't happen to me." Riiiiight, 'cause... um... why?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I spent a long time in graduate school without realizing that the assistantships that supported me did not involve my employer making any contributions to SS (not that it would have made a difference to me at the time), but as a result, it is as if I wasn't working at all as far as SS is concerned.
@@ALCAN52
This hasn't been my experience. My graduate training prepared me for a high paying job and I succeeded in landing one. I wasn't investing in the stock market, but I was investing in myself. I cannot promise that anyone who pursues a graduate degree will get a high paying job, but the converse is true. There are certain jobs that will only be available to those who have benefited from additional education beyond high school. @@ALCAN52
I'm so glad someone in this comments section isn't offended by what she said. She is saying count the cost and that should not be considered controversial
My husband and I were fortunate ro have taken out Long Term Care Insurance at 50 (each of our premiums was $2500/yr. At 65 my husband was diagnosed with a VERY aggressive form of Parkinson's. Even with just in-home care, 1/2 days, the cost of $47,000/yr was defrayed by the Long Term Care Insurance until his passing at 72.
How the heck is $80,000 not enough? I only spend $25,000 per year, and that's with a mortgage. Everything she talks about can be prepared for with frugal living and index funds. For me, I plan for 4% withdrawal, but my basic expenses are only 2%. Also I eat healthy so I have no health bills. As for getting hit by a truck or something, I'm not going to stay at a job I hate just on the off chance that happens. I'm not going to let a fear mentality get in the way of my freedom.
Yes, exactly. Well said, Char.
Eating healthy? Oh yeah, you will never get sick or injured for the rest of your life and will die in your sleep at 102. Guaranteed.
Lissa K that's the plan! But I know injuries happen and I've planned on that too. It's less of a problem for me though, because I live in Canada.
Don’t forget you have to pay taxes on your 4%. For some states, that could be half.
VSG elle Some states have 50% income tax?! Man I'm glad I live in Canada.
she is doom and gloom right off the bat, is everything ok in her life??? And then she just starts bragging that she has tons on money and she flies private on jet and has a private island. she can start a rap career hahah. On minute 20 I see why she creates all that fear.... to plug her book with "solutions". This podcast was more about her then about finance, she just could not stop talking about how smart she is and how everyone wants her on tv etc...
ok, this is good advice for people only focusing on Lean Fire, Retire Early. For that, thank you Suze. However, most intelligent people understand the entire spectrum of what FIRE entails. I think the most important thing is to gain financial independence so you can have more choice when it comes to working. Another important thing that FIRE teaches is to cut back on consumerism, to find happiness in fulfillment in relationships, time spent with others, and avoiding debt. So take the good things from FIRE and from Suze's advice, and do YOU!
Wow! Complete patronizing. I am actually embarrassed for suze as this was just bad. Straw man, ad hominem, just silly stuff across the board.
Hmmm. I’m sure you realize what you did there.
Paula, thank you for your willingness to do this interview, to put it on your channel, to present an alternative perspective. I think we all have family or friends who would represent the same view point (that FIRE people are crazy or short sided). FIRE gives us choice.
So humble 😂
That was interesting to listen to. I liked hearing a different point of view even if I don't agree. I'm all about retiring early so I can have choices, like Paula said. :)
I was so grateful that I ran across this interview. I really love to hear arguments against popular movements in case I'm seriously falling for that confirmation bias Paula was talking about. I too have a lot of respect for Suzie. She was one of the first to be publicly advocating for financial education of the masses. And thanks to people like her and Dave Ramsey, many people are taking control of their finances and investing. I give her plenty of props, however it's abundantly clear that she does not understand the very basic precepts of the FIRE movement, which our interviewer, Paula, so eloquently restated for everyone. In a nutshell, retire early, learn how to take care of your money and make it grow along the way, and go do what you love!
(I very highly doubt that the folks who actually achieve FIRE are those that end up sitting on their asses all day ordering from Domino's and binge streaming shows 24/7. Maybe for a few days, but achievers are achievers and once FIRE is crossed off their to do list, it's on the next challenge, que no?)
What an egotistical , narcissistic maniac. I stopped listening as she provided no value to me from her negativity. I do want to commend Paula for shaking things up a bit and taking a risk with a show like this. Nice work Paula , you kept cool and stood up to her when needed . Love your show!
She is absolutely right
All she is saying is do FI. Continue working on whatever you like and keep investing.
Oh..here comes the plugging of her book...
I think "Suze Orman "took you for a ride. The interview was about promoting her new podcast. She wants to take your listeners away from you.
It was good to hear Suze present counter-points even though they were peppered with some self-promotion ;) Can people actually aim for FIRE while also being married and having kids? Have they planned for some emergencies? Remember the power of compounding, as you get more earning opportunities when young. What does FIRE even mean? As Paola defined it in the beginning, it is the option to retire when you want. Many FIRE practitioners will likely continue to "work" in the line of work they are passionate about. Good points Suze and Paola. Very nice interview.
All the fearmongering is really irrelevant. I feel for her for losing someone close to her and I understand that if I was in her position I would probably think the same way, but most of us aren't. Even if we save 90% and work until we are 80 we won't have $100 million to cover all of these freak accidents she is talking about. All that said, she is clearly very passionate about her subject and I respect what she has done. She helped my mother and father turn their finances around, pay for my college, and become debt free which allowed me to become debt free at an early age. She makes very important points and none of us should forget the accidents that can occur in life, but we don't need to let that fear overcome us and prevent us from living our lives.
I have been financially supporting my parents since I got my first job. They worked too but my brother is special needs so they could not work full time. I don't think I can ever retire as long as there are people depending on me.
Watching this in 2021, hearing Suze warn about 25% unemployment because machines are going to take our jobs is so funny. Companies are begging for employees, and people are like, nah go get a robot.
Im 3 years late and can’t believe she said these things. She speaks with so much conviction & I totally understand how she became popular. She’s entertaining at least
We all speak from the level of our experience. The FIRE gurus are young. When you're older with years viewing the world for decades you have Life experience to draw on. I believe Suzy on this one.
And I have seen coworkers, friends, and family who waited to 65 to retire, buy the RV, and travel the country or waiting for the pension to move overseas to live like a King or Queen...only to die from cancer, hear attacks, or auto accidents at 59 to 65 years of age.
Pay off house...have no car..no cable...live meager...shop dollar store...only buy what you need...live frugal...good plan...
She's talking in extremes and allness statements:
"You are hit by a car..." (extreme)
"I ALWAYS see..." (allness)
" I see what happens when people don't have the money...they take guns to their head" (extreme)
"When you are older is when you want 40, 50 million dollars" (extreme)
Also speaking with arrogance: "I am sure smart and I'm seriously rich" and "I get to live forever..." and "nobody has talked more about money than me anywhere in this world"
Suze is wrong. 50M aint enough. Keep working everyone.
Anytime someone says, “Most people will have a problem with what someone says or their opinion,” I make a point to listen to that person. This was a very good interview with great insights. You should work as long as you possibly can because you don’t know what will/can happen in the future. Hopefully we like our jobs/careers enough to do that.
This is officially the best interview I have ever heard in my lifetime. I love her
I agree with Suze. I am in my 70s have paid millions for my parents long term care and still pay for my sister who was hit by a drunk 40 years ago. I also paid over 500K for my sisters cancer treatments. She died and left 3 young kids who I provided for. A company I worked for years ago went Bankrupt. God bless everyone who can retire at 30 and 40 and have no problems. tI did not happen to me. If I had a choice in life I would rather be the poorest person in the world and have no problems. Unfortunately in life we do not have that choices. It is much better to be rich and unhappy than poor and unhappy. Suze is correct unfortunately.
Suze Orman is Brilliant. You should listen. She’s talking about the probability that unforeseen financial burdens can wipe you clean if your not prepared for it!
FEAR!! Once you pay off your house, you can start coasting. Once you pay your kiddies' college tuition, you can start coasting more. Once you dump your car (we urbanites can do that completely), you can coast even more.
With all due respect, Ms Orman lives the lifestyle of the rich and famous. But those of us who grew up in the middle class and have discovered the joy of simple living, you don't need much money each year. Feel the Frugal!
You need 80K per year in retirement? I'm still in my earning years (late 40's) and even being liberal with estimates, I live on about 48K per year. I go on decent but not extravagant vacations, eat out a fair amount, and still have a mortgage. Maybe you need 80K if you chose to live in a big city. But if you chose where you live wisely and pay off your mortgage before that retirement date, you will be FINE on a fraction of 80K per year.
Well said
most people never make 80k a year and they survive just fine.
I'm Star lord legendary outlaw Even if you do if you have insurance you’ll be fine. This coming from somebody who has had cancer TWICE