Doom Graphics And Audio in other id Games (Doom 64, RPG, Quake)
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- čas přidán 4. 01. 2024
- We already know id reused Wolfenstein assets, but did they also do the same for Doom? The answer? Yes. Don't know why I even asked.
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Thanks for supporting me in 2023! - Hry
I hope you've enjoyed this last video of 2023!
A few notes on the video:
-Some of the games aren't technically id games, as they were made by other studios. The title just rolls of the tongue better than "Games based on Doom and also Quake". However, id did oversee the development of these at least.
-I'm aware that I missed a bunch of sprites and textures in several games. The problem is that I rely heavily on the Spriters-Resource and the Textures-Resource, and if they aren't uploaded there, I'm missing out. Feel free to point them out in the comments!
-I also know that Quake 3 contains more references to Doom (like the difficulty settings and the plasma gun), but A) I've never played it before this video and B) those aren't really graphics or audio.
hello it is not 2023 😢
@@HammysSleepy You WOULD have seen that comment in time, had you been a patron of mine, but NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
@@GermanPeter hello... i would like to apologize i am sorry for being very inconsiderate in the past 20 minutes and for not becoming a patron i pray you can find it in your heart to forgive me
@@HammysSleepylmao
@@GermanPeter
There is a "glaring" omission you didn't "see" (pun intended).
The light fixtures from MAP06 in DOOM2 reappear on map E3M4 in Quake.
Start MAP06 and look up. There they are: 6 of them, each one a small square with 5 fluorescent lamps.
Start E3M4, walk a few steps forward, look up. There they are: 6 of them, each one a small square with 5 fluorescent lamps.
Map E3M4 ("Satan's Dark Delight") from Quake is a bigger version of MAP06 from Doom II ("The Crusher"). They both have the same structure: both are two-section maps with the first part in both maps being an "Escape from rusty prison"/"Jailbreak" section with fodder enemies. Then there is a big ass elevator connecting to a second (larger and twice as vertical) section with bigger and meaner enemies. Finally, you then go back to the first section and exit the level.
MAP24: The Chasm ("The Chasm A" in GBA) also has those same fluorescent lights in the BFG secret. Start MAP24, run towards the blue skull key door and jump down to the green slime below. There is a cave with a cross. Walk atop the cross and look down: there they are, along with a BFG and a radiation suit.
Happy new year, everyone!
5:43 Doom 64's Pain Elemental does still have two arms. They're skeletal, and they hold onto the backs of both mouths.
Oh yeah, very spine-like. Good eye!
What you used for the first Doom RPG is actually the BREW, not the Java version. It has floor/ceiling textures and proper sounds.
Ah! That makes sense.
There were at least two version of the first Doom RPG. There was the Java version, wich - as far as I remember - didn't had proper sound effects (only "midi sounds" replacing them), and no floor and ceiling textures. There was also a Symbian version, wich had the floor/ceiling textures, and maybe that version had sound effects (I never tried that one).
Yes, the original Doom RPG version used basically the phone's sound board and vibration, like a lot of Java games from that time period
Now for someone to remake/remaster/resize the Doom RPG sprites for use in a GZDoom mod. Maybe even thr same for the non-iOS versions of Doom II RPG.
regarding the reuse of boring/bad-looking textures, i think the devs' reasoning is a lot less grandiose than you think. probably something along the lines of "it's just dirt/a boring wall/etc, who cares"
ID software early works is pretty mediocre IMO. The pixel art, animations and sound effects are crap.
Surprised you didn't mention the Doom 2 Hell knight sharing a death sound with Quake's Vores.
As usual though, great video!
Oh yeah, just listened to it, it kind of reuses the death noise? Not fully convinced though, to be honest.
@@GermanPeteruses the same stock sound effect source
@@GermanPeter Different pitch probably but the resemblance is there
To comment on the end bit there, I like it when developers reuse some assets among sequels or games within a shared universe because it establishes stronger connections in them. The voicelines of the H.E.V. suit between Half-Life 1 and Half-Life 2 is another example of this. It's like how family members may have different personalities from one another yet they still share attributes such as facial features or mannerisms. Every bloodline has genetic consistencies somewhere.
Yeah it may totally seem like it was laziness or something, but all this shared DNA really is what binds DOOM rpg to DOOM the best. It can't run or play like DOOM so you really need something that's undeniably DOOM before your eyes. Sound effects are the same too. These things immediately inform you what you're playing.
Doom got pretty much all its sounds from a stock sound effect library. It didn't make its own noises. It just lifted them or mixed them from existing free to use ones
The Vore in Quake makes the same death sound as the Hell Knight from Doom II only pitched lower.
That sure is an interesting name for an FPS enemy. I hope it doesn't get a completely different meaning on the internet years after the game is released…
@@artCharles I know what you're getting at. Internet ruins everything.
I totally forgot that There is a patron scroll at the end until I saw my own name on there
I always thought Doom 64 had a bassier, wetter sound design. Really interesting to hear some of the sounds are literally just Doom 2 sounds with more bass and running water played over the top!
They also use A LOT of reverb in the game. It sounds kinda silly, like when you play Half-Life and shoot headcrabs in the vents :D
@@GermanPeterDSP effects were actually them sneakily putting your headphones in a deep fryer
if I recall, the Quake player isn't called "Quake Guy" I think the official name ever since Quake 3 Arena and Quake Champions is Ranger
I like quake champions
17:06 I would have to disagree. I'd even say the evidence given for the similarity between the doom and quake faces is less evidential than of the previous video mentioned. Sure, maybe it was partially based off, but definetly not referenced, as I think the pixels *barely* match (and that's WITH heavy modification), with the only reason they do so being both textures are drawn in limited pixel spaces. Perhaps a previous part of the video will explain what I mean. 14:40 How else do you draw a circle shape in a FIVE by FIVE area without making it look like a diamond? No way. It's a similar case with the faces, they're not only made by the same artist, but in the same limited pixel and palette space.
Quakeguy and Doomguy literally have overlapping eyes, nose, mouth and teeth. They line up identically, it's not just "barely with heavy modification". Like no, I'll admit the Wolfenstein graphics may have just been a coincidence, but there's no way that's a coincidence too. Sure, they changed the sprite here and there, but didn't. Again, if they wanted to draw a new face entirely, like they did with Doom after Wolfenstein or in the SNES port of Wolfenstein, they could have so easily done that. Those faces have zero overlap. Here, the overlap is undeniable.
@@GermanPeter in your "perfectly overlapping" examples, sometimes features are off by an entire pixel or two. given that they woulve been working with constrained sizes for the art i think it is perfectly possible that it is a coincidence or some light reference. Dont get me wrong i think its still possible that they were based on doom textures but who knows. I really have to disagree with like half of the points youve made about this as a pixel artist myself. god knows how many same faces ive made. I always thought it was weird how you were pointing out supposed perfect overlaps despite the obvious discrepancies. For example, you had to move the eyes close together, yes thats a minor edit but how far do you need to take modification like that until it becomes too far of a stretch?
@@GermanPeter Really think this is a huge miss on your part, "but there's no way that's a coincidence too"
@EchoHeo The thing is, I wouldn't even be saying this, had the game not reused A LOT of other assets (same as Mac Wolfenstein). If this had been the only connection between the games that I could find, then I wouldn't even have said anything. But since there is so much overlap in so many other aspects, it makes me think that it's the case. Again, it's not like they were unable to draw unique sprites for characters that have similar faces (look at BJ and Doomguy). Even the new ROTT remaster has very Doom-like faces that still look original. It's possible I'm looking for things that aren't there, sure, but it just doesn't seem so likely.
My question is just: if they reused so much other stuff - why stop THERE? Why did they save themselves so much work by recycling old graphics, just to then draw new sprites that look almost identical to ones that already exist? Why not recycle those too? It's not even like Quake Guy's faces are particularly ornate or anything. They're not bigger, they're not more detailed, they're not from a different angle, they have the same dimensions as Doomguy's.
Agreeing with this. It's a good video. But I'm with you, that one is a stretch. At most, to me it's a reference, it's not a 1 to1 match.
One think I noticed when I played quake for first time is that duke nukem and quake had some of the same sound effects.
The Doom II RBG Hava sounds are so funny, sounds more like a 16 bit platformer than a Doom Game.
Has an almost slapstick like quality to it.
Good to see you GermanPeter doing quake and DOOM 64 on your channel. Quake 1/2 and Doom 64 are my favorite game for design and gameplay and to see how Id move on with there games.
Good thing you brought up Doom 64 because its one of my favorite games in the Id Sofrware library. To me it did everything Doom 3 set out to do but kinda missed the mark on. It kept a perfect balance between being more scary and consistent to what came before. I love it.
Shame the level design sucks big time because it's needlessly cryptic and at times completely unfair tho lol
Also has some of the best demon designs across the series. Peak imp, pinky, arachnotron, and pain elemental.
Talk about resourceful!
Great video as usual, Peter! Hope you're having a wonderful day!
Thanks for being part of the reason I picked up doom and tried it again after having motion sickness issues years back. No more issues and I am loving the originals
You know, I liked your point about the soul of the "id family tree" so to speak, the lineage from Wolf 3D to Quake 1. There's really a spirit to these games that I just can't find in the others. You can sort of see an imitation of it in Quake 2 (Lone trooper behind enemy lines in a sci-fi setting fighting highly militarized mutant horrors) but it just feels so distant, and almost corporate. Especially once you get to Quake 4, pretty much everything past that is completely divorced from the original id spirit, even if it's fun, like ET:QW and Doom 2016 and the new Wolfenstein games.
Oh
That means that the original id spirit left with Romero
@@GargoyleInfestation Well yeah, I think everyone thinks that, but I'd wager it started leaving with Tom Hall
Awesome vid. I love these kinda analysis videos.
I’m honestly really surprised that you didn’t mention Quake’s item pickup jingle being the first 3 notes of Doom’s famous first level music.
It’s not quite the same as reusing assets, I know, but it’s the first thing I think of when it comes to connections between the two games.
I'm not hearing it :P
The sound when picking up a medikit.
24:32 The first of those OG Doom water tiles matches with the Quake tile perfectly but with 180 degrees rotation and a small offset.
Awesome vid! You just earned a subscriber!
Thanks!
13:15 idk why but these cutscenes look silly as heck
great video as always!
wait, they "didnt' commit to the idea" of bringing him back by not reusing the exact same sounds again? okay, I'm gonna be honest, that sounds kinda dumb. it would sound pretty out of place at that point.
honestly kinda tuned out by the whole ending monologue.
18:50 can't believe they added mf doom to quake
The only texture I really remember being something from a previous Id game in Quake III is the icon of sin texture, forget where it is in the level but its in q3dm13 in one of the dropdown points
20:46 I can see the top of the head & horns on the left...
wow, those sure are images
A map in Quake III, Lost World, has an Icon of Sin texture on one or two walls. Though, it's either the original image or it's been edited, because there are no cyber-modifications on it. Another big note; the brain isn't exposed.
1:28 Doom’s original sprites were made using clay models references
I was talking about Doom 64 and how the models were computer-generated
@@GermanPeter Doom 64 initially used clay models as well by the same artist even
@@jess648 You got any source for that? That sounds interesting.
@@GermanPeter for 64 specifically they were done by Gregor Punchatz (he did some of the models first doom 2) before being used as reference for 3D models for eventual sprite conversion by the Midway team
Also, the Ranger from Quake, his face looks more alien than the Doom Marine's face, probably because of the dark brown appearance that blends with the Gothic appearance of Quake.
I do would like to mention that the BFG 10K in the Quake 2 remaster replaces the BFG 9K graphics from Doom 1/2 and in favor of Doom 64's. I'm going to guess this was likely because Nightdive (the team who remastered both games) used them because they also remastered Doom 64 in the past in 2020, and possibly that Doom 64's looks better to which I agree.
TBH, This is the only good youtuber that I have watched in a while.
Damn, you gotta watch better CZcamsrs!
blessed be the algorithmic machine
Blessed be your comments 😊
This is a great video! I had no idea how many assets were reused between these games, so it was interesting to see all of this!
The reaaon the first doom rpg reuses so many sprites is because there was exactly one guy working on the game, that being John Carmak. Also the reason the original java version of doom 2 rpg's sound effects are so nad is because they're midis, becayse wave form sound effects would be too big for mobile phones of the time, which was very common for java mobile games at the time.
Quake ranger's "side glancing" mugshot is actually his pain face, by the way.
oh, I got here 7 mins after it was uploaded. what a coincidence.
German peter is one of my favorite German youtubers.
Videogamedunkey is one of my favorite Blade CZcamsrs.
the java sounds are actually midis, since java phones didnt have any support for samples
the quakeguys/rangers side glance is a hurt sprite and the grin is his pentagram of protection sprite
the hexagon tiles from quake 2 are probably based off the beige hexagon tiles, you can tell from the noise it has
From what I remember quake 2 and especially 3 has more textures lifted up from doom. For example the spine texture from q3dm4. Also some of the shared textures are presumably stock ones as I've seen them on non id games
Regarding quake 3: the icon of sin has a cameo on obe of the levels. I don't remember exactly the map name, but i think it was lost world?
The texture is was smaller than the original though, but the resemblance is noticeable.
Also, not a recycled texture, but anarki has a lost soul drawing on the board he's over it.
Oh my god! Finally someone else is talking about the Pain Elemental and Cacodemon swap!
Right? Even when I played the game recently, the change was so obvious to me.
I'm willing to bet some of the textures in these games go all the way back to Catacombs 3D
VIOS looks like it belongs in Digimon, and I dig it!
Ah yeah, I love when I finally get my new spine!
I thought Doomguy's Q3 sounds were alright, since his original sounds were just stock ones anyway, but Ranger just isn't the same without his "HUH!" jump sound.
By the way, the part about skulls reminded me of a blue wall texture in Wolfenstein 3D with skulls on it, does it have any similarities to the skulls from later Id games?
The blue wall from the Mac Family uses the Doom skull, yes!
It's like they took DOOM and just revamped parts they didn't like and made DOOM64, very cool.
18:18 "Schädelllll ! Jaaaaaa !" **spongebob intro**
i just noticed: The blue skull wall texture has EYES in it. look at 18:31
This guy speaks at normal speed when playing this video at 0.75 speed
oh my god i LOVE Doom RPG!
3:03 this is so very nearly the windows logo
I might be wrong, but the face of that Jesus texture in Quake's E1M9 kinda looks like Doomguy's death face.
It does seem that the Grunt and Enforcer models were based on the Zombie Man and Marine respectively, maybe the rottweiler based on the Wolf 3D dog, or the Ogre based on one of the Wolf 3D bosses, though comparing voxels with sprites is tricky.
Artist decades ago: "I'll reuse these graphics and nobody will ever know! *laughs villainy*"
GermanPeter in 2024:
peter i think ur starting to trip
ya startin' to see shit where there isnt anything
cry about it (affectionately)
Was the doom speed run you did liget for beating it in 7.8 seconds or was it a troll?
omg, finaly another peter video!
also, respect for mentioning quake 👍
say what you will about the quake 3 doomguy grunts, they are really impressive recreations.
like, say this wasnt official and simply another game referencing doom, then id say it sounds fantastic! its "we have doomguy at home" done incredibly well. shame it was effectively totally unnecessary in this case (like, why couldnt they use the old ones?)
edit: wanted to add, ive never thought about modern doom having the dna of quake in it. it makes perfect sense with the more gothic vibe of things like doom eternal especially. while i would still like a new single player quake, i guess ive been getting pretty damn close this whole time
I do like them a lot, but... they couldn't at least add his pain screams? They're stock sounds!
@@GermanPeter maybe they figured since they were changing his voice they figured those screams didnt fit? just my guess
I remember playing Doom 64 on TV- it was soooo dark you basically couldn't see anything. I persisted on not changing the brightness in game because it would be intended this way. Which is probably wrong
No, I did the same. The game is just massively, incomprehensibly dark. It certainly adds to the mood, but it's kinda hard to play on an actual CRT :P
*!ATTENTION! PETER DID NOT PUT SHAMBLER'S ASS BEING CYBERDEMON'S ASS IN THE VIDEO !ATTENTION!*
You made me look at buttcheeks, and they're still not the same!
3:45
at least our favorite skeleton made it into doom 64, even if it is via sound effects
15:00
Might be a bit of a stretch because that is really just a good way to light an ORB.
That's absolutely fair. They do the same in Doom 64. Still, same size!
Quake 3 Team Arena expansion had a chaingun, that was clearly inspired by the one in Doom and Doom 2...was hoping you would mention that. Check it out!
Please check my pinned comment :)
The chaingun in Team Arena felt more closer to Quake II's than Doom's.
Quake 3 has a texture from doom, this organic pipes in q3dm4.
11:54 Why the hell does the RPG Icon Of Sin look so badass
Even in Eternal it's just an oversized goat with armor
The closest demon that looks like RPG Icon Of Sin is the 2016 Cyberdemon but it still pales in comparison to it
It's definitely the best-looking version of it, Doom 2 included!
26:56 this last grunt sound looks familiar, I think I've heard it somewhere in other Doom games, I could be wrong tho
They used it in Brutal Doom as a taunt.
@@GermanPeter ohhh yeah, that's right, I remember now, I used to watch Brutal Doom vídeos ALL the time when I was 13, that is why It sounded so familiar to me
thank you, great video as always btw
The sawcubus Head looks like a squished archvile Head
Good eye!
Does anyone know what song that's playing at 11:26?????
Original music, composed for my channel :)
@@GermanPeter Man I hope they get uploaded someday! Really good tunes!
you are really stretching it and seeing stuff that you wanna see in some of these cases, like the wolfenstein guy's gun flash, other than having the same pattern of 8 spokes, while literally everything else is different, look up what "correlation does not equal causation" means, and stuff like that BFG ball, has no pixels arranged in same order as the original one so theres not even a pattern there to match, finally the quake guy face, it does not align even if you edit the eyes and than overlay them, they got different cheek bones, nose, chin, eye sockets and and those folds of skin between mouth and cheek and nose, not to mention both heads have a different camera angle to them, quake has this straight on angle while the doom guy has a more of a top down angle, what you are seeing is just the result of the same artist working on both graphics and carrying over his style and way of doing faces within that limited amount of pixel space, only reason you see similar features is because they worked last time so why not do it again
21:35
If you look, it might be all three bars.
W video
W comment
these weird earthbound neon color warping background look like a migraine aura and make this extremely difficult to watch
I'll look into it, thanks for the feedback.
7:29 whats the background music?
Composed by Sunnexo just for my channel :) It doesn't have a name.
Old mobile dev here. Doom RPG I/II is further complicated by there being multiple versions for different screen sizes! Java (and BREW) games had such a tiny maximum file size that you couldn't fit the graphics for all devices into the same package. I think the footage here shows the largest available versions of the graphics, though.
The Java and Brew versions would be roughly equivalent in tech, the Symbian version a bit more advanced, then the iOS/Android versions more advanced again with essentially no file size limits (for a game like this) at that point.
This is also a reason why there are palette swaps of enemies - for the same reason as old cartridge games - you can just reuse the same sprite data with a different color table. As to why there's so much asset reuse, bear in mind this was just John Carmack making these as a semi-hobby project with his then-wife's company and maybe a contract artist and one or two other people.
The Doom II RPG Java sounds are midi instrument cues rather than samples, again this would have been to save space.
The Red Cross logo being absent in later Doom releases is iirc because the Red Cross/Red Crescent charity trademarked the symbol (I guess your other video covers that?), not censorship per se. (It annoyed me when Doom showed up in a later series of Halt & Catch Fire - set circa 1993 - and it was clearly not the OG version because this gave it away.)
How about heretic, Hexen, duke 3D and even Half Life 1's textures and sound effects? Do any of these games where the same sound effects and textures? I know the pain sound for Corvus, Baratus, Daedolon, Parias pain sounds and one of Duke Nukem's grunt sounds is the same as doom guy’s pain sounds.
I might do a video on that at one point :)
Surprised you didn't mention Doom Resurrection for ios at all. I haven't played it myself, but looking at gameplay it definitely seems to reuse most of its sound effects and models from Doom 3, just simplified for mobile
Because the video was about Doom 1 and 2, not Doom 3.
"Arschveilchen" danke
OG Doom and Doom II used some actual clay models to sprite from as well, but Doom 64 would perfect the technique by digitizing-to-model prior to spriting. Really made Carmack/Punchatz's work look great!
What about Heretic, Hexan, and Hexan 2?
Is planned :)
I'm wondering if a Cacodemon that fires two fireballs would be worse than the Pain Elemental that spams Lost Souls twice as fast.
Honestly, it probably wouldn't hit anything :P You could be standing right in front of it and it'd shoot them past you!
You forgot to mention that the Shambler uses the Cyberdemon’s butt, it’s really weird but it’s actually super obvious when you see it lol
See, I looked at it and compared the two and just can't see it.
@@GermanPeter Huh, I could have sworn... research time!
The Icon of Sin turns up in a few Quake III levels but as a model on the wall rather than just a flat texture (and scaled way down for obvious reasons).
Ok
Recolored enemy sprites are typically done due to memory limits, not laziness. It uses way less memory to apply a different palette to an existing spritesheet than making space for a second.
Never said anything about laziness. It's absolutely smart to reuse graphics, IF you know where to apply them. That's why the Doom RPGs stood out to me - you draw so many graphics from scratch, only to then recycles old ones with like 10% of the detail? :P
Could be a case of same artist than just copy sprites? 15:34
Like I said in another comment, I doubt it. This time, the faces line up genuinely perfectly. They have the same size, the same shape, the eyes, nose, mouth and teeth are in the same places, and so on. I mean, they drew new sprites for BJ's face in SNES Wolfenstein that don't line up with either his DOS counterpart nor Doomguy, so it's not as if the artists were incapable of coming up with new designs. And like I mentioned in the video, Doomguy's face isn't just BJ's face from Wolf3D either.
Heck, they called Quake "Doom 3" at one point, so I don't think it's a big stretch at all to suggest they just reused Doomguy's face because of the similarities.
@@GermanPeter Would be cool if you could interview or ask Adrian about the process of the art. Glad everyone still alive.
GermanPeter please don't use RolandGS from Windows Media Player next time, use the sc-55 soundfont or let me.
Something funny about the D2 Java ver.
It uses midi for its sounds.
I wonder if they used the canned Midi soundset from Doom 1.
im an earl bird :3
I kind of appreciate that id used the same chainsaw sounds, doors, and some explosions throughout different games.
pinned comment 4 days ago
released 7 hours ago
Peter: last video of 2023.
seems legit
It was the last video of 2023 for patrons, and it still is the last video I made in 2023 :P
@@GermanPeter makes sense now.
Say again, some of these are such a stretch its a kind of saying two persons both have eyes, therefore they look the same.
I.e the table in Doom RPG Looks absolutely nothing like Wolfenstein 3D
5:46 pain elemental in doom 1 what?!? are you sure?
I didn't say that. I said that in Doom 1 and 2, the Pain Elemental looks a certain way and the Cacodemon looks another way. The "2" part was referring to the Pain Elemental, while the "1" was referring to the Caco.
@@GermanPeterok
7:49
You have 10 minutes. Go.
I recognized those hanging Quake corpses as they are seemingly reused (and ever so slightly redrawn and one being flipped upside down) assets from Atari Jaguar Doom
fun fact: the first ever game i played was the original doom on the xbox 360
I think lack of reuse in Quake 2 is also cause few people left ID after Quake, so fresh people give fresh ideas.
slow down man. 😂
speed up dude 🙄
I think bashing Doom RPG for reusing content is unfair. The whole point of the game was taking original doom and making an RPG out of it. It was literally the best Java game then, there was nothing to top it off. And I loved that very much. And recoloring enemies is just a typical RPG thing, nothing special here.
I'm not bashing them for reusing content, I'm bashing them for downsizing sprites so much that they turn into a pixelated mess. It's FINE, but when you compare it to the new wall graphics, which look presentable, it just appears way worse. Even the new human sprites (which are based on Doom 3 models it seems) look awful.
They should have just drawn new sprites from scratch with simpler lighting and shading, and maybe even a somewhat cartoony artstyle. Using the old ones as a base, but not just copying and pasting them.