Top 5 Nurburgring Mistakes (Why and How to Avoid)

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  • čas přidán 27. 05. 2015
  • The quest for mastering the Nurburgring Nordschleife might be a long one that requires years of experience and thousands of laps. However there are a few common mistakes that can be easily avoided. We tried to compile the years of experience instructing people on their first laps at the 'Ring in this short video.
    Our instructors Gabriele Piana and Ray Shepherdson will guide you through each mistake with an actual example of things going wrong, plus our suggested approach on how to avoid that happening.
    * All accident footage featured is owned by the respective parties, this media is displayed under the Fair Use laws for the purposes of commentary, criticism and review.
  • Auta a dopravní prostředky

Komentáře • 336

  • @cicci0salsicci0
    @cicci0salsicci0 Před 8 lety +192

    n° 1 mistake: thinking you are the Stig

  • @Proccito
    @Proccito Před 8 lety +249

    So driving Nürburgring in a nutshell: Brake in a straight line?

    • @jpdemer5
      @jpdemer5 Před 8 lety +88

      Racing 101.

    • @bremCZ
      @bremCZ Před 8 lety +76

      Driving 101

    • @floccinaucinihilipilificat2839
      @floccinaucinihilipilificat2839 Před 7 lety +38

      False; Braking in a completely straight line is not racing 101. In fact, it slows down your cornering time significantly by causing massive understeer when the car springs up from the braking force. Of course braking in a straight line on a straight is ideal, but you should also be braking into the curve to maximize your speed and utilize the grip on the front of your tires when it is pressed onto the race track.

    • @Streeto_161
      @Streeto_161 Před 7 lety +25

      GTX1080 the problem on the nordschleife is that the road is very bumpy... If you brake in to the wrong corners on the ring you will crash... No matter how good you car is...

    • @Proccito
      @Proccito Před 7 lety +2

      GTX1080
      that feels like next level shit. If Im an amature who only been driving on the road, then I dont think that I should be pushing my car, but rather learning how it handles. Depending on if its RWD, AWD or FWD, and front, mid or rear-engined. Might be wrong though.

  • @Michel
    @Michel Před 9 lety +179

    Ohh the irony.. of all the Brünnchen vids you've showed the one with the ringtaxi haha.. that's just cruel.

  • @northeydesign
    @northeydesign Před 9 lety +145

    Now to put these to the test in Assetto Corsa!

    • @Abgefahren789
      @Abgefahren789 Před 9 lety +20

      Kapoweazel Gaming Except Nr. 4 ^^ But maybe in AC2 :D

    • @desallplays8289
      @desallplays8289 Před 7 lety +6

      I believe they more or less happen in AC as well. At least I recognised some of them where braking too late but seemingly with plenty of space left meant it just lost traction and goes straight into the rail. I've been trying AC on that track lately and pretty much the points where he said to brake is where I ended up braking to avoid crashing.

    • @jerrywang5791
      @jerrywang5791 Před 5 lety +1

      Northey Design I play assetto corsa too!

    • @imnota
      @imnota Před 4 lety +1

      I feel like the bumps upsetting the cars doesn't really happen much in assetto.

    • @SkoinksX
      @SkoinksX Před 4 lety +3

      @@imnota It does, but much like a real car, it's not the bump that gets you - it's applying inputs during a bump.

  • @gordonclark7632
    @gordonclark7632 Před 8 lety +67

    I have watched many Tube videos of the Nurburgring and to see it explained as why people keep crashing in the same places is excellent as a learning curve. Too bad I live in Australia as it would be the ultimate drive.

    • @thynysan
      @thynysan Před 8 lety +3

      +mitodabadee It would not be the same without the different elevation changes.

    • @davidnelson2370
      @davidnelson2370 Před 7 lety +2

      It's worth the trip from Australia Gordon!

    • @gordonclark7632
      @gordonclark7632 Před 7 lety

      If only I could!

    • @123jogger123
      @123jogger123 Před 7 lety +1

      And also not the same due to the very difficult weather changes. I live in the near (around 20km away) and all people here know how fast weather can change: Snow, ice, wet vs sunny dry on the same track - would be impossible to do this in Australia.

    • @gordonclark7632
      @gordonclark7632 Před 7 lety

      Yeah I could but the dangers would be dingoes, kangaroos, emus and camels bolting out in front of you and when you get out after crashing, the snakes and the scorpions waiting to give you a shot of their juice!

  • @pascal-t
    @pascal-t Před 3 lety +9

    Timestamps of corners in the video sorted by track km:
    5 km Schwedenkreuz @ 2:04
    6 km Fuchsröhre @ 3:03
    8 km Kallenhard @ 1:05
    15 km Wippermann @ 0:10
    16 km Brünnchen @ 4:37

  • @RodoNet
    @RodoNet Před 5 lety +7

    My tip: Learn the track in a pretty slow car. My first laps were in a Peugeot 405 stationwagon with a 1.9L diesel engine with 70 bhp. Do some laps, see how it goes, then upgrade to a bit faster.

  • @eknuds
    @eknuds Před 9 lety +6

    The primary lesson seems to be to concentrate on the basics (brake in a straight line, and apex late) because it's a bumpy complicated track.

  • @Circuitsofthepast
    @Circuitsofthepast Před 8 lety +17

    The mistake most common motorists make is turn in too early. Than they have to lift and turn more at the end of the corner, with all consequences...

    • @Circuitsofthepast
      @Circuitsofthepast Před 3 lety

      ​@jt thorsson It's Nürburgring, not Nürnburgring.

    • @Circuitsofthepast
      @Circuitsofthepast Před 3 lety

      @jt thorsson The Nürburgring is very often confused with the city Nuremberg. Many people think the circuit is there instead of the Eifel mountains.

  • @Raptorifik
    @Raptorifik Před 9 lety +5

    thank you for posting.
    A great video that will have inexperienced drivers will roll their eyes
    and experienced drivers nodding.appreciatively.
    It is amazing to me how many people leave the track with their cars all dented up, if the car can leave the track.

  • @TheOfficialPayne
    @TheOfficialPayne Před 9 lety +3

    Nice video and good idea. I like it. thanks for showing the kallenhard+exit fuchsröhre part.

    • @mikehart4083
      @mikehart4083 Před 9 lety

      Thanks for the info. I will remember this when I visit the RIng in September.

  • @SpeedComparer
    @SpeedComparer Před 7 lety +11

    How does a South African get such detailed insight on the ring?

  • @2day_we_ride
    @2day_we_ride Před 7 lety

    Great video - local knowledge makes such a difference here - not least the differences when the track is wet, dry or dusted with snow! Being driven around by someone who knows the circuit and is able to share that knowledge without attempting to impress you is invaluable.

  • @Musique61414
    @Musique61414 Před 5 lety

    Excellent advice.

  • @johanndaart7326
    @johanndaart7326 Před 5 lety

    I really like your tips, you always give advice about basic driving techniques that are fundamental in order to drive safely.

  • @wojtepanik
    @wojtepanik Před 9 lety +5

    Very good video, practical and intresting for all car geeks. More vids like this pls ;)

  • @MikeOnBike360
    @MikeOnBike360 Před 6 lety

    Very impressive! First time I see such a detailed break down of all these mistake. Normally you just find the crash footage. Thanks! Mike

  • @Ghostca
    @Ghostca Před 9 lety +16

    Any chance you could share a link to the whole in car video of the driver talking his way around the ring? Thank you!

  • @Tom_Hadler
    @Tom_Hadler Před 8 lety +13

    Nice video dude. Well made. I must make the pilgrimage one day

  • @RaisedBySheeps
    @RaisedBySheeps Před 5 lety +1

    I love the video concept, and the execution and editing was also fantastic. Keep up the good work!

    • @1994clue
      @1994clue Před 5 lety +1

      I agree you, that's was the same what I thought!

  • @meean8799
    @meean8799 Před 8 lety

    thankyou guys. this video is very informative even for the use of skills for other tracks or roads

  • @prodrivebrasil
    @prodrivebrasil Před 8 lety

    Excellent explanation!! Thank you very much!

  • @IloveCochereau
    @IloveCochereau Před 7 lety

    Thanks a lot, very interesting advice !

  • @MyFilippo94
    @MyFilippo94 Před 8 lety +1

    Excellent explenation, will help on the simulator, thanks

  • @sagecouncil
    @sagecouncil Před 7 lety

    Great advice. Thanks

  • @PhotoArtBrussels
    @PhotoArtBrussels Před 9 lety +21

    Did a couple of wet (drenching) laps with Ron in my R35 GTR. Very, very interesting ... and we of course did Kallenhard on the outside! :-) Very informative film, pity not more people go for pro-instructors BEFORE putting the car, and others in danger. I would strongly recommend anybody to have at least a couple of laps with a pro-instructor. (+150 Ring laps and +350 Spa laps ... and even then I took a pro to refine my lines)

    • @wiredsk8r
      @wiredsk8r Před 8 lety +1

      +valcked just play project cars to learn f the instructor LOL

  • @housoleum
    @housoleum Před 9 lety

    thank you for this video!!
    its very, very helpful!
    please do that with all the corners and sections on the nürburgring!

  • @ID1visor
    @ID1visor Před 9 lety +4

    For anyone wondering about the song title, it's La Caution - Thé à La Menthe .

  • @QuattroRMT
    @QuattroRMT Před 9 lety +178

    now I can play Project CARS! thanks ^^

    • @BarendBootha
      @BarendBootha Před 9 lety +65

      ***** Should rather play Assetto Corsa, unlike project cars, it's not an arcade game.

    • @dderegowski
      @dderegowski Před 9 lety +41

      ***** Also Assetto Corsa has this track laser-scanned, amazing quality ;>

    • @laggispower1
      @laggispower1 Před 9 lety +13

      ***** its amazing in Assetto Corsa..in Project Cars tho its has big issue with bugs

    • @GatienB
      @GatienB Před 9 lety +3

      Barend Bootha Sarcasm ? Assetto Corsa is an arcade game compared to Project Cars.

    • @laggispower1
      @laggispower1 Před 9 lety +23

      Gatien Boquet Whaat?Have you ever actually played both games at the same tracks?Assetto Corsa is way better IMO..

  • @SHiFTDI3S3L
    @SHiFTDI3S3L Před 8 lety +1

    During sim training what usually catches me are 7 - 8 km - Metzgesfeld, the braking point leading to 9 km - Ex-Mühle, including the uphill right handed kink, and finally, that fast balls to the wall 13 km - Klostertal. Often misjudging these sections will give my times some tricky gaps I have to overcome, starting 15 km - Hedwigshöhe, all through 17 km - Pflanzgarten. Usually with me overcooking it somewhere along the way and leading to more loss of time, or a crash. Good tips m8.

  • @Wiseguy248
    @Wiseguy248 Před 6 lety

    This is good stuff. Thanks!!

  • @MrJohancederberg
    @MrJohancederberg Před 7 lety

    Great video. Practical. Thanks.

  • @valentincrespy9338
    @valentincrespy9338 Před 9 lety

    Awesome video !

  • @zxy1987106
    @zxy1987106 Před 8 lety

    I found this video is extremely useful, thank you.

  • @OMACARacing11
    @OMACARacing11 Před 7 lety

    Good ones ... for my first experience had to analyze a few videos to avoid this corners ... suggested to the administration to have simulators ready for "New drivers" with this kinds of advices to make experience less dangerous for them and others are the track. 💪🏻

  • @andrewsalmon100
    @andrewsalmon100 Před 9 lety

    Such an excellent training video. Explain, demontrate then explain again.

  • @Indyxpress
    @Indyxpress Před 6 lety

    Good info, thank's!

  • @lratafia
    @lratafia Před 8 lety +24

    nice tips, a bit bad they are not in ordered as the track flows. like: 3, 2, 4, 5 and 1 :)

    • @ronaldderooij1774
      @ronaldderooij1774 Před 8 lety +1

      +Leonardo Ratafiá Indeed, and the first clip does not match the comments. It is completely somewhere else on the track.

    • @doubleT84
      @doubleT84 Před 8 lety

      +Ronald de Rooij 0:53 he enters Wippermann, the part he's talking about, turning into Eschbach 0:57.

    • @ronaldderooij1774
      @ronaldderooij1774 Před 8 lety +2

      +doubleT84 Ah OK, thanks!

  • @Mark-nl1up
    @Mark-nl1up Před 6 lety

    Really interesting. This guy knows his Ring

  • @RemaMotorsport
    @RemaMotorsport Před 6 lety

    Nicely made Video, guys...

  • @rafaelreis4994
    @rafaelreis4994 Před 9 lety +1

    You shoud also have mentioned Bergwerk and its (very) late entry. This is one tricky corner where people tend to make mistakes, either by entering too soon or too fast (or both)

  • @SirAceMcFly
    @SirAceMcFly Před 9 lety

    Good Video. I nearly crashedmy Lancia Delta Integrale on 4 lap on Ring at Adenauer Forst. Since then i never drove there again and have now Respekt off the Ring!

  • @billblackeye
    @billblackeye Před 5 lety +1

    more videos explainng spin offs and accidents!
    really informative on judging speed, steering input and braking!

  • @NeoEletto24
    @NeoEletto24 Před 9 lety

    Very good video!

  • @JohnAgustinScuderia458595

    RSRNurburg these will come in handy in the future Thank You very much!

  • @Innoxp
    @Innoxp Před 8 lety

    fantastic video... I remember when I drove your car in 2013... One lap with this Renault Clio rs...

  • @floydthedroid5935
    @floydthedroid5935 Před 3 lety

    Thanks guys

  • @user-ph5pl7ke4z
    @user-ph5pl7ke4z Před 7 lety

    wow i hadnt seen like this thanks for making

  • @heftybawsack
    @heftybawsack Před 9 lety

    Great Vid!

  • @pec1739
    @pec1739 Před 5 lety

    thanks for the EDUCATION !

  • @surewin1773
    @surewin1773 Před 7 lety

    Is there a full video of Gabriele's on board instructional available?

  • @andrewschell6536
    @andrewschell6536 Před 4 lety

    Great video

  • @swine13
    @swine13 Před 4 lety

    Ive been driving this in a sim to learn the layout and obviously i make a heap of mistakes, but ive only had one issue at youtube corner and that was going just slightly wide onto the gravel, which i recovered from without even losing much speed.
    I find Pflanzgarten (?) Harder. That part that comes from the straight, then does a shallow right into a braking zone for a downhill left. I always always always underestimate it and i carry too much speed in. Then i try to compensate during the right/braking zone, lose most of the traction and slam almost head-on into the wall of the left hander.

  • @Carbon_RS38p
    @Carbon_RS38p Před 7 lety

    Very good 👍🏼

  • @WizardPAX84II
    @WizardPAX84II Před 8 lety +1

    That video should be watched for all new drivers who want to go ring, it is very useful. I'm from Spain and someday I'll rent a car in RSR Offices like M135i or similar..Thank you and good job!

    • @fartymcfartface8227
      @fartymcfartface8227 Před 7 lety

      LOL, crashing a rented car at the ring will not be cheap.

    • @ziiofswe
      @ziiofswe Před 7 lety +1

      Since they specialize in rental cars to drive on the ring, I'd imagine they have better prices and insurances than ordinary car rentals.

  • @155woody
    @155woody Před 9 lety

    Great video rsr team, any advice on miss hit miss?

  • @TheColinChapman
    @TheColinChapman Před 4 lety

    I like that you've chosen the music of the 'dance scene' from Ocean's 12 for this video. :)

  • @jamdc2000
    @jamdc2000 Před 6 lety

    I will use all those advices on the street too, thx guys.

  • @gtrulez
    @gtrulez Před 5 lety

    Brunnchen always gets me, especially the first right hand corner to were the spectaters are. My GTR understeers there more than you might expect. I ended up way on the curbs there a couple of times haha. Other than that it is just a matter of knowing your car and its limits. And take it easy. One tiny mistake and the walls are waiting for you.
    Such an awsome experience though! Its almost like a rollercoaster ride.

  • @daruween1398
    @daruween1398 Před 3 lety

    thank you

  • @SHates
    @SHates Před 9 lety +25

    These will come in handy in Gran Turismo...

    • @YunGrey
      @YunGrey Před 9 lety +15

      SHates If only GT actually relied an actual physics engine, then this might be useful.

    • @xDarkFussel97x
      @xDarkFussel97x Před 9 lety

      SHates I thought the same^^

    • @theeeMitchi
      @theeeMitchi Před 9 lety

      Yun Grey haha, this!

    • @eduardojdm-cb9un
      @eduardojdm-cb9un Před 9 lety +1

      Yun Grey now is the part were you say need for speed is way better, or even worse... forza. GT is the best simulatori out there, easily

    • @RST-R-MODS
      @RST-R-MODS Před 9 lety +3

      eduardo.jdm Noo,is AC,rFactor1,2,GSCE,iracing,GTR2,RACEO7 ;)

  • @ZndChannel
    @ZndChannel Před 9 lety +16

    Song: RJD2 - Ghostwriter :)

    • @tuchap
      @tuchap Před 9 lety

      ZndChannel and this? 4:40

    • @SupraMnChannel
      @SupraMnChannel Před 9 lety +2

      ***** ***** Thé à la menthe instrumental and you'll find it.

    • @fm2h3
      @fm2h3 Před 5 lety

      I recognized that solid musuc taste right off.

  • @freddyfox5002
    @freddyfox5002 Před 5 lety +1

    I never understood why people liked this place. Too long to learn for beginners and too narrow for racing and too dangerous for time trails. But then I got GT Sport and learning it and it fun. Fast and has a great flow. Fun overtakes in sim at least. Never repetitive and lots of things to improve on.

  • @safekraka
    @safekraka Před 9 lety

    Good vid ...very informative :)

  • @Xavipie91
    @Xavipie91 Před 8 lety

    Nice vid!

  • @mattbradley1716
    @mattbradley1716 Před 6 lety

    The most dangerous corner to my mind is Lauda Links to Bergwerk. Get your speed down and late apex Bergwerk and keep your speed down. You can easily go in too hot and hit the barrier on exit. You'll get to it between 3 and 4 mins into your lap. Be ready for it.

  • @MF1Z
    @MF1Z Před 4 lety

    Nice info... 😎👍

  • @KOOOORAY
    @KOOOORAY Před 7 lety

    What's the song featured at the very very end??

  • @DaviiiiiiiidDW
    @DaviiiiiiiidDW Před 9 lety +1

    Can we see the full lap on board somewhere ?

  • @MrFuxhound
    @MrFuxhound Před 8 lety +4

    Is it possible to make a wet lap guide (for beginners) on the nurburgring?
    Guides like this video and the ideal lap for beginners are awesome!

    • @garybailey1602
      @garybailey1602 Před 5 lety

      The short answer is don't drive it in the wet as a beginner, I've been driving the ring for 25 years and I'm still wary in the wet.

  • @RR101001
    @RR101001 Před 7 lety

    is the nurburgring fully fenced? can someone go through the forest and get in the track?

  • @BIRKERBOYZ
    @BIRKERBOYZ Před 7 lety

    I live in Germany (I'm German) and only about 100 km away from the Ring. So I can't wait for the new season when winter is ending here.

  • @hon3yweed
    @hon3yweed Před 9 lety

    I find Wehrseifen pretty hard on every sim. In sommer ill go and do some laps... Any Tipps for me?

  • @NeillWylie
    @NeillWylie Před 7 lety +4

    Quality video

  • @charlielynes
    @charlielynes Před 2 lety

    Most excellent. 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟

  • @sillymonkE73
    @sillymonkE73 Před 11 měsíci

    Can I order that laminated map online anywhere?

  • @mrspeeddemon727
    @mrspeeddemon727 Před 5 lety +1

    How do you get one of those maps?

  • @thomastegtmeier
    @thomastegtmeier Před 8 lety +5

    Cool way to make a video, very nice!

  • @dmoore8288
    @dmoore8288 Před 9 lety +1

    Where can I order that map?

  • @hanskjellsson2319
    @hanskjellsson2319 Před 7 lety +6

    it doesent matter if its the ring, other circut or on the street,Always break in a straight line an be in gear before corner if you drive fast, nothing new about that, good vid!

    • @OGSiX33
      @OGSiX33 Před 7 lety +6

      yeah, except if you want to win races - certain corners are much faster when trailbraking.

    • @thunderbug8640
      @thunderbug8640 Před 7 lety +7

      +OGSiX33 that is true if you drive for a racing team, in a race, in a racing championship as a racing driver. But for the random dudes going to track days unless you are either a) really good and know the track well or b) dont like your car very much its best just to brake straight.

    • @OGSiX33
      @OGSiX33 Před 7 lety

      Couldn't agree more!

    • @wuzihuzi
      @wuzihuzi Před 6 lety

      trail brake all the time on the road. No where the speed where it upsets the balance of the car. Much quicker even when going slow IMO

    • @hoen2009
      @hoen2009 Před 5 lety

      @@wuzihuzi yes you can certainly do that, its just that the nürburgring has some really mean corners that if you brake in a corner while going 150kmph you will lose it. And for most people its safer to just brake in a straight line than take the risk of braking in a corner not knowing if its possible there.

  • @ChrisDorgan
    @ChrisDorgan Před 7 lety

    where's that instruction video that was shown with what looks like Ronaldo when he was skinny :P is there a link anywhere?

  • @SupraMnChannel
    @SupraMnChannel Před 9 lety

    What's the background song? It sounds like something Turkish, Arabic but not so sure yet I know it's famous pretty much.

  • @hikarihikari4501
    @hikarihikari4501 Před 8 lety

    I found I have made all those mistakes when I drive in Nordschleife , of course not in really life, but in gran turismo, and after over thousand of laps, I already knew those tricks

  • @michaelschneider-
    @michaelschneider- Před 8 lety

    +1 ..Great advise. A wee bit out of sequence the corners mentioned, great view just the same. In the wet,, "the corners dry line are very slippery" ..... man you ain't kidding.... Ask me how I know.... Lolol ... Only damage in that slippery turn in the wet episode was to my ego..

  • @christianhensel8253
    @christianhensel8253 Před 7 lety

    Cool Video.

  • @PiranhaZ06
    @PiranhaZ06 Před 8 lety

    Where can I get one of those maps?

  • @CarspottingBrasil
    @CarspottingBrasil Před 2 lety

    Excelent video even though I have never been to the nürburgring.

  • @SoundToyzAreUs
    @SoundToyzAreUs Před 6 lety

    Whats the name of the driver at 0:55 explaining the Nordscheleife? Any link to the video of him? Help appreciated.

  • @unknown243
    @unknown243 Před 9 lety

    Does anyone have a link to the guy he swaps to that drives it right? I want to see that whole vid. Thanks!

    • @keithedwards2172
      @keithedwards2172 Před 9 lety

      unknown243 youtube/rsrnurburg: anthony ashley does a superb guided lap 'how to tackle nurburgring nordschleife'

  • @moppedmann123
    @moppedmann123 Před 7 lety

    Adenauer forst is missing..

  • @lekhan1918
    @lekhan1918 Před 8 lety

    I'd like to see your take on Kesselchen, the final left after Bergwerk - in the wet.

  • @bb3xhrhj
    @bb3xhrhj Před 9 lety

    Nice video

  • @rideroundandstuff
    @rideroundandstuff Před 7 lety

    What about the last bit of Ardenauer Forst? People alway misjudge that corner.

  • @vishalreddy99
    @vishalreddy99 Před 9 lety

    Super!

  • @Yardliver
    @Yardliver Před 9 lety +1

    Song: RJD2 - Ghostwriter

  • @Pb-ij4ip
    @Pb-ij4ip Před 3 lety

    I need that map! Not that I plan to drive the Nürburgring, but I’m an amateur historian, and that’s as good a battlefield map as I’ve e er seen!

  • @the_rustydoornob1164
    @the_rustydoornob1164 Před 5 lety

    This actually will help my lap in gt6 but I have my own line in the x2014 junior car

  • @maciekpaj
    @maciekpaj Před 5 lety +4

    Legends say phoon is now on the nurburgring😂

  • @Cancun771
    @Cancun771 Před 9 lety +2

    I'm surprised Adenauer Forst is not in here, or is that too much of a beginner's mistake (when you haven't quite learned the line by heart)?

    • @docteurgreene
      @docteurgreene Před 5 lety

      100% agree. Adenauer Forst is my nightmare in Asseto Corsa...

  • @HobgoblinUK
    @HobgoblinUK Před 9 lety

    After 9 trips over 10 years Angst still gets me. I just can't drive it fast lol
    A guide to MHM into Wierseifen would also be usefull.
    It was easy in my old ep3 Civic Type-R a little more tricky in my 330d e46.
    Back in 2005 on my first trip the section from the Foxhole through to Adenaur Forst was 1 of only 3 I recognised despite thousands of virtual laps on GT4. Another was Steilstrech (sp?) up to Karussel. Kleiner karussel kind of counts as a 3rd I knew it meant I was near the end.
    Apologies for any bad spelling of the corner names :/