REACTING TO FNC DRAFT DISCUSSION VIDEO BY LS - CAEDREL
Vložit
- čas přidán 13. 03. 2023
- Follow Marc:
► / caedrel
► / caedrel
► / caedrel
► / caedrel
► / channel (Vods)
Inquiries: Business@Caedrel.com
Edited By:
► / heyguysitsmoo
► / zerogdx
Thumbnail made by:
► / industriestg
Outro Song - Hardwired by Ramses B
#Caedrel #LS #FNC - Hry
![INSANE BTMC Subathon Showmatch | Riviclia (Lita) vs VinceHD [TETR.IO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SFzSPRaRkKo/mqdefault.jpg)
I could listen to LS and Caedrel talk about league all day long. Getting the X’s and O’s from LS and the human element from Caedrel is so entertaining
Caedrel - Yes
LS - Nope
@@kekw2579 Very unessesary Comment
@@emptyptr9401 no ls only crries moans and whines. annoyng af
@@pullimau8555 He never did that once in this video. You just gotta pick the right content to watch
@@cremlindor6607 just watch his streams
i love the idea of a caedrel and ls debate/conversation, but from what ive seen (from sometimes in streams) is that caedrel tends to talk a lot less and expresses his own thoughts as he usually lets the other person speak a lot more. Thats why i think i prefer these types of videos where caedrel has the freedom to pause, think and fully develop his point. This is just my opinion, dont kill me.
The problem with LS is that, even when right, he just talks and talks while losing the point he is responding to
we need more LS+Caedrel debates/1hr+ videos, I absolutely love you guys together it's just perfect mix imho
I don't think league is actually a good game to have live debates about unless it's like who is good and who is bad.
It's not just subjective... a lot of what is good and bad with champ/build/macro is essentially arbitrary with each piece depending on each other piece and then each of those depends on the person who's playing them the team they're on the league they're in.
LS is going to base his opinions on Korea and caedral probably on lec and some of Asia but mostly lec.
If they have a debate they're not even having the same conversation
@@Velereonics LS doesn't even base his take on Korea. A lot of his take conform with LCS/LEC slow level of play. Caedrel is def more in the mind set of LCK/LPL until G2 bias comes in then he will concede until they get spanked internationally.
Fnatic did really draft The Powerpuff Girls in B1-B3
Honeslty I wish Caedrel and LS talked together more about this kind of stuff... I'd watch those discussions, cuz it's such an interesting angle of a game. LS brings his 'Teamcomp has to be cohesive and have shared goal/wincon' idea with Card games analogies that I very much enjoy. Caedral would bring more How in the moment pros could thing (like 15:05 where he explains potencial thought process with LB being strong early to pressure botlane cuz they releasied it's their only out).
MAKE IT HAPPEN!
would they even want to talk to eachother? LS is a bot. Caedrel is human. It's like trying to get riot devs to talk to players. Bots vs Humans
@@vitaryanb they talk together a lot? and they’re friends ish and often discuss stuff on stream
@@sebnanchaster I did not know this. I should've looked into a bit more.
I think LS mostly analyzes drafts without looking at the players involved and their unique strengths, mainly because we know his philosophy is that the value of pro players is how they are able to learn and perform well on the champs that the team needs them to play.
On the flipside of that I think many pro teams tend to draft almost only looking at the strengths of their players and trying to get them on picks they are good at rather than looking at draft for the potential advantage it can give.
Where I agree with LS is that if the coach can't at least bend the team to play the picks and style that he is paid to come up with, then what is even the point. If the coach's only job is to take into consideration his players' preferences and give them comfort picks then he serves no real purpose, the players could just come up with a close enough draft of comfort picks on their own, which is basically what a lot of western teams do since many players have small champion pools and the coach ends up really restricted in what they can draft.
Honestly i rather listen only to Caedrel... It's way more cohesive than LS rant
I really liked hearing LS's thoughts and caedral's. league isn't like chess where you know what's best, so the debate makes me feel smarter ab league for sure
edit: I guess chess isn't solved but the computer is at least able to know what move is best (usually or always idk)
I disagree. Chess is only mathematically solved with 7 pieces on the board. That's why chess computers keep improving all the time.
Also league is more solvable, since it's face up drafting, but of course it's still really fucking complex.
Obviously people aren't robots that play perfectly, so i can see why the "drafting for/against people" is more common than drafting for comp synergy
I think ls assumes peak performance, so draft wins/loses you games.
But caedrel probably assumes that people will never be able to perform perfectly, so draft cohesion matters less than comfort/playstyle of the individual
@@Muth500 That’s why Caedrel is miles ahead of LS because LS’ analysis is always in a vacuum and never consider how teams like to play and how the players are so they will never actually work irl, players are humans not robots. I also don’t like his attitude of being the only “woke” person in the pro scene and every single team is just dumb and “doesn’t draft well”, like come on now yeah he has some good points here and there but how big do your ego have to be to think that way.
@@Muth500 imo, I never felt LS assumed peak performance ; to me, he considers reliability and coherence within a comp against another more than anything.
For example, "sinning comps" aren't inherently bad, but, in his mind, they're very specific and the reliability of those strats shouldn't depend on whatever mistake the enemy will do to succeed
@@greenhat7618 i'm a bit on the fence here to be honest.
I get his frustration. I think in his mind, being an 8/10 at the "correct" pick beats the 9/10 on the "comfort" pick. But it seems like no one is even going to give the correct pick the chance to become an 8/10 at it. He's never been given a real opportunity to implement his philosophy long term. And already in the 3 weeks he'd been in C9 he created some of the most entertaining league of legends i have seen (while being fairly successful)! So it's clearly possible to become 8/10s at the correct pick that'll beat 9/10s at the comfort pick. Also the correct pick requires the correct strategy for it. He often uses card game analogies, which make sense to me. You can have the best control deck there is, but if you don't know how to play it, it's going to be fucking useless. I get that.
He might be a punk, but it doesn't mean that he's wrong. Not until he has been given a proper chance to realise his ideas.
Just so everyone knows: LS always talks about draft in hypotheticals, he even says that all the time. He makes these comments knowing that the player is NOT taken into account. This is because players get paid alot of money and should be able to play every character.
I think LS main problem is the "Theme of the draft". FNC had no identidy in their draft.. it felt like a bunch of random characters.
I'm 15 minutes in the video, and I can already feel like Caedrel ain't focusing much on the video. I know player pov is important, but LS' video wasn't based on that. Caedrel was responding just like how LS haters respond, by either stopping before LS fully explains or by not understanding what LS means and picking specific lines of him.
I'm sorry, but "he's getting paid a lot, he should be able to play all characters" is just a dumb concept. The same way as there are roles in the game, even if you're extremely talented, you don't have the time to learn the champions and limits and playstyles of every champion, at least not to the degree of proficiency on your main/comfort picks. It's like saying "you're a programmer, you should know all of the programming languages, you get paid a lot of money for programming".
@@wapniczek Well, LS always talks about comp over player ability with that thought process. You may not like the logic, but it is a sound logic. And LS never talks about characters that are unpractical. So yes, every pro should have a clue how to play them
But to your point, there are a TON of pros that can play every character to their potential. In EU for example, Caps practices all characters and is good. THAT is what makes you a good pro because it makes it hard to draft around.
No one said anything about comfort, but pros shoudl be able to play every character for their given role. That is why they get paid alot of money. If they cant, go sit on the bench so we can get someone who can.
@antykamo yet most pro players instantly know how to play new champions that come out instantly if said new champ is broken? Granted i do agree that a pro playing every champ in the game at a high level is almost impossible, pros having wider champion pools shouldn't be dismissed like this.
Nobody can play every character equally good. It's impossible and if you think I'm wrong, you're out of your mind. Regardless how much you're paid.
That's like expecting a Football player to be good at playing every position or a pro-played in FPS game to be equally good with every weapon.
It is not realistic to expect such a thing.
They both have such different views on the game it’s so cool to watch this kind of debates
I will say I generally like LS’ focus on champions complementing each other, but I think one think Caed is good to remind folks of is that just because a champion is a good thematic pick, that champ just might be too weak right now. The numbers aren’t there
@@unlimitedpower978 To add on this, Caedrel also considers the people playing these champs so it's more humanlike. It's not that LS' reasoning is wrong, he has some logic on what he says its just that even if my top laner would be gigastomping the enemy laner by picking a certain champ but he doesn't know or cannot play the champ at its maximum potential then I'd have no choice but to scrap that idea.
@@julseu_lol That's true. I think part of LS's logic that is tough to deal with is that his picks are oriented around the idea that you assume player/team skill is even in most cases. Which of course never is the case, but I don't think there's a way to think about champions and team comp strategy if you don't, on some level, presume equal footing
I agree with caedrel that xayah maybe isn't so much a "vacuum" answer to ashe but it's still a general answer to pick composition, with R + Cleanse + galeforce and also with Rakan who is extremely hard to pick off. It's more that FNC is showing a theme right off the bat with ashe and they have to either draft harder into that theme, which becomes kinda self-countered, or draft away from that theme which makes the ashe not fit in the comp. Either choice would have been a small disadvantage for FNC but instead they tried to do both with vi and leblanc going with the theme and zeri just ruining the theme. They would've been better just picking full scaling with the ashe kinda sticking out, or just full pick/poke even if it doesn't match well into enemy comp, but trying to do both is just worst case scenario.
I would fucking pay to see more caedrel/LS videos/streams about drafts and analyses...
6:59 Rekkles said on his stream that he thinks Jhin is a very bad pick atm, so he won't picked it. For him, too many meta ADCs are just way stronger than him.
For me Jhin is bad against tanks especially Sion. But with this start of draft I think that Jhin was a good pick. And if Vit takes Sion you're happy to not see Photon on a carry champ
But he also said that Collector 2nd is good on Jhin because and I quote “it feels good” so that says everything about how much that guy thinks about the game.
@@nixus1909 Lol Rekkles is literally the guy that said you have to go RFC 2nd on Jhin because that way you buy IE 3rd. He thinks delaying IE or RFC to 4th is bad on Jhin. That says how much you know about him.
Yeah no reason to play Jhin, decent early, decent mid and a bad late game the only thing he is good at is using his ult to help engage everything else someone else excels way better at
And he's right. He should start picking Senna again, she's pretty good rn
Second and third sivir+sej are really good, maybe orianna is not bad for mid, u can save from engage or provide more cc for xayah after sej ult, sion top better for oscar (no matter how much he dies, passive playing)
I was dying when you summed up his mtg monologue with “vi into xayah is bad”
LS goes of on the analogies cause he feels that whenever he simplifies stuff people ignore it even more
This is not the place for all the ls haters to come out. Caedrel and LS r friends, and for you guys to come out and be like this is crazy. Just say u hate LS and wanted a reason to shit on him.
I hate LS and I want a reason to shit on him. Luckily he gives plenty of reasons
i hate LS and got a reason to shit on him
There are very few ls haters in the comments xD
@@zsomborszigeti6797 check the replies on the first comment
I haven’t seen a reasonable comment of the LS haters so far.
All of them had been insults without actual arguments, it’s kind of sad tbh.
This video was just Caedrel ignoring LS' points lol.
More of this please!
Ziggs + Ashe feels good into Xayah Rakan you just shove waves and take plates and hopefully get an early tower execute. Gotta have your jungler sit bot though or you just get perma-ganked. GP top goes well too really hard for the enemy to walk into you with GP barrels and Ziggs liandrys E, not too mention the cross-map presence you get from their ults
True, I don't at all get why Caedrel is saying how ziggs is weak, first of liandries is better than RoA and Ziggs is one of the best ADCs. Also ADC is by far his best role, like Caedrel hasn't been playing much League at all lately and he is just correcting ls on what is strong when LS has been playtesting forever is so weird. Like I'd bet that Caedrel has not played Ziggs in the last 5 months and hasn't seen him in like 2 months
@@zsomborszigeti6797 caedrel sees ziggs a decent amount when he watches lpl
T1 is a team that could pull that off for sure, the amount of games where they have Oner perma pressuring bot is insane. I see it whenever they get Oner on Vi vs Sejuani.
because you play 2 ap carries or what would be your ad carry mid pick be? tristana?
also mercs get a lot of value then into ashe ziggs, it’s easy to itemize and what do you do then when you have no damage or cc & get jumped by rakan
@@candelalux1403 Trist works yeah, also a good player on GP top can supplement the lack of AD in the bot. Mercs are really valuable but the goal is to get Ziggs far ahead enough in the lane that Rakan can't keep up in items to counter, as well as get Ziggs out of lane asap so he can wreak havoc on the rest of the map. It is of course easier to type it out than actually implement. Can def have scenarios where you get behind early and are turbo useless because you are easy to itemize against and are only sitting on a lost chapter and Ashe doesn't have jack. Don't think FNC is the team to pull this off though
you gotta love being 10 mins in and suddenly LS is talking about yugioh
getting me hyped for when they bring back Saints and Sinners
I will never understand how rekkles plays all his career sivir offmeta and now that is playable he doesn't pick it
He thinks it's not good relative to the draft. Which I don't think is the case most of the time
He is also very very good on senna which is currently meta, I would even say the strongest Adc in the entire game. I will never understand why he doesnt play it
@@baby0891 You can't really just pick Senna. The draft kind of has to revolve around her
@@arturoflash perfect. As i said she is incredibly strong and rekkles is an excelent senna player.
@@baby0891 for sure, rekkles senna is one of the best out there. One of the worst adc in the league on everything else, maybe jhin is good too.
Practical guy vs Hypothetical guy
pretty much yea
Maokai should work great with fnc on 3p with sivir 2p
We need Caedrel to react to more of these
I like the Ziggs for the reason that it shakes up this stale meta
I actually like Seraphine or even (Fasting) Senna for Rekkles. I think he can play a pretty good support. Raman does have a hard time engaging into Enchanters and both Seraphine and Senna like the matchup into Xayah Rakan. On Razork somethink like Seju or J4 could work like charm and that Ashe can't really be played as ADC just sucks
Uhh what? Rakan hits one good flank engage and the entire team is wiped. This isnt soloq where there will be downtime between the engage and the capitalisation for seraphine to flash away and ult, they will just get cc chained and giga fisted
@@deejaydee1578 Yeah and now go watch kdf vs drx game 3 with almost indentical draft to what ls is looking for, and see how much fun enemies have engaging on veigar and seraphine.
@@edvardparikka9862 Mf veigar is a completely different beast. His wall has barely any cast time so if rakan jumps in a good player will react and chuck up a wall around him, and the rakan is completely stranded and the team can't engage. You can't just add in a champ with one of the strongest anti-engage abilities out of the blue, tf. We're talking about seraphine
I really like how outspoken ls is but it's good to have someone like caedrel to reign him in a little when he gets a little to god complex about everything
Well I love Caedral but he had some bad takes here. First of all, ashe doesn't need to win lane and get plates to be useful. This is a bad concept which many people believe (another example is lucain nami winning lane). His ziggs take was also not on point. Saying that ziggs is weak champ is also not entirely true, Maybe mid ziggs is not optimal but adc ziggs is actually really really strong in a comp where you want pushing bot and poke. What is more, picking Sivir and Sej is almost as bad as VI and Zeri on B2, B3 - Gragas loves to play into tanks because he outscales them in jungle and they don't have much pressure early and then Sivir is just worse version of Ezreal/Ziggs ( She might push faster but is not as safe later on).
@@petarpetrov1784 Ziggs would've pushed lane the same way as Zeri/Ashe did, but that wasn't Fnatic's issue. VIT didn't win bot, but they also didn't lose it. That'd be the same outcome if Fnatic picked Ziggs since their whole loss came from top/mid/supp crossplay, so what Caedrel said isn't wrong in this draft.
Also saying Seju and Sivir is just as bad is outlandish considering how little of an engage they had anyways and this would give them the proper weakside they lacked and the bot would be far safer + would be more useful than Zeri was. Saying Sivir is worse Ezreal/Ziggs is stupid because obviously it isn't universal and very draft-based. If we're talking about this draft, Ezreal would have been good, but again, the issue isn't bot side so changing the ADC wouldn't have changed the game much.
Caedrel via low diff.
@@Tw1s7 well I never said Fnatic would have won with ziggs or ezreal. They played so bad that it probably wouldn't even matter what they pick. We are talking strictly about draft here and not what happened in the game. I agree with you that the problem came mainly from the top side but this is not what we are discussing here. Ofc rekkles will not pick Ziggs so if we were talking about FNC - VIT specifically then yeah I would never suggest Ziggs bot as an option. The Sivir point is exactly how you described it. Sivir is worse in this draft not universal ofc. I actually like Sivir as a champ but for me she has 2 main reasons to be picked - as a single main hyper carry ( with enchanter and heavy frontline) or to support certain champs like Olaf, Bel who require her movement speed to function. So having Ashe the first option is not optimal already and the second one is countered by the disengage of gragas xayah - you don't want to run into them. This is my reasoning why I think Sivir is not very good in this draft.
LS trying to make a thesis out of a draft that screams 'pick me whatever, just le us lose in peace' vibes.
The team mental is just not there, they could be playing the exodia draft and the enemy team being 'full sinning' and it wouldnt make a difference. The moment 1 play goes wrong in FNC, its done, just see the player faces and you will notice that they are mental boomed beyond repair.
I actually hated FNC draft so much. You simply don't go Ashe with Zeri, especially against an engage heavy champions. You pick Lulu or Karma. Also, what is LeBlanc supposed to do against VIT comp? You can't teamfight, you can't find picks. Add all that to the way they've been playing (like watching platinum solo queue) and there you have FNC in the mud.
You can’t really say that because they picked Ashe before the other side picked engage champs, but yeah Zeri Ashe is kinda shit. But what do you suggest they first pick? If they don’t pick Ashe then Vit would probably pivot into another comp and take Ashe and something else maybe Sej and get push and mid will pick something that can roam and hard force bot. Ashe is still a pretty strong pick but EU teams are just not executing it well, maybe they should reevaluate their champ prio cuz all EU Ashe I’ve seen so far has been pretty darn useless.
So we all blame Rekkles in the end for that Zeri pick which completely ruined the draft with no clear direction what they want to do?
@@candelalux1403 zeri is dogshit without an enchanter support, remember that
@@greenhat7618 Easy. Ban Ashe on blue side if you don't plan on building bot comp around it. Problem with current Blue side draft is that they banned Annie. Typically OP champs pressure harder on red side draft forcing red side to waste their ban card on OP champs. But blue side banned it on their own hands helping red to save their ban card. That's why blue side is much easier to draft thus have higher win rate and teams prefer blue side draft.
Or just leaving Ashe open and let red side have it may be an alternative option since it looks like blue side wants to use Zeri as ADC. Why not just finish Zeri LuLu comp with Ashe open? This is what LCK and LPL teams were doing on blue side -- give Ashe, finish bot comp + strong jg to counter it. Ashe does have very strong laning phase but it's only problem is that it loses its prio drastically if it dies even once in laning phase. It loses push prio which leads to losing lane pressure and also preventing Ashe from roaming.
@@jaybeecaranza9471 yea that's what i said, rekkles & razorks picks were hard int
Beginning of video: "It's not a bad draft"
End of video "yeah i guess it's bad".
Idk.
Either i am suffering from the dunning kruger effect or LS is.
dude just lacks self awareness
reacting to ur bfs content = based
anivia pick into azir would be what i choose if i were playing that game
caedral 33:26 i think LS meant immobile in the contect of camille ulti
To bring up the MTG analogy that LS makes, LS is just a dirty control player with a control mindset. The issue i have with LS draft is that he places too much emphasis on countering/disrupting the opponent's strategy. That is by itself a powerful strategy in card games: the Control Archetype. But I don't think Control as your sole team strategy is good or even well realised in the current League meta where you need a proactive gameplan. Even in card games, other archetypes like rushdown and combos are just as powerful as Control. And these archetypes look to execute their gameplan with very little care for what the opponent deck/draft is doing...just as most drafts are in League.
That aside, I also think picking immobile poke into Gragas is not counter but actually fucking suicide
and who are you to think you know more about the game than LS?
I have always thought the east's Bo3 format is much better at finding the best teams and rewarding them. These aren't body smashing American Football games or incredibly demanding from a physical sense like Football in the rest of the world. It's a mind game with mechanical skill. Every other mind game is played in a series. And if they'd introduce a conquest style that eliminates your team from selecting a champion you've already won on in that series we'd end up with more diversity and selection, more compelling games, and less variance in being able to say "Oh they lost draft so game was doomed". With conquest eventually you'll be forced to play with "inferior champs" but still make a cohesive team and the players that are better at adapting and truly understanding the game would win more.
Pretty sure 100T pulled out the first Xayah Rakan this year
i feel like a lot of LS points about draft dont really work in the actual draft ban phase where you are under a timer and the players are giving inputs or not willing to play certain champs. Is not like the coach can just draft whatever the fuck he wanted with no player resistance.
That's why he does the videos, to show that there are options that should be taken into consideration even if they want "normal" champions. Why VI and not Jarvan? It's not like he's asking for a Janna jg
them having a bad draft and playing horribly are not mutually exclusive. Just because you say they had a bad draft, doesn’t mean you automatically ignore their horrible gameplay. People just have a hard-on for hating LS i guess
imo they should've kept wunder and instead of rhuckz, recruited someone like treatz who is a free agent atm as far as i know
I'm really curious why they first ban draven, I don't think upset even plays it
I wish he would give context to why he dislikes Seraphine
same reason he said for ziggs I believe, youre just really immobile and vulnerable to a big engage (like Rakan obviously in this game) which makes the draft a lot harder to execute in his opinion. I think Caedrel looks a lot more at the ease of execution of champs like that while LS looks more at their hypothetical value if played optimally which is where many of the disagreements come from.
weeb champ
Works in bad region. See CLG playing it.
She is a scaling champ who when against most meta bot lanes will struggle to get push in laning phase. This means you’re sacking the first 2 or 3 drags which is already hard and since she’s immobile with dodgable cc it’s easy to dive her. Game will be over in 30 minutes just as she’s getting strong. She’s essentially only good in the LCS right now since they really struggle to punish scaling bot lanes.
@@willmollard9078 Bingo. I remember LS counter to Caitlyn/Lux lane is Seraphine/Karma. This does not counter it at all. This just confirms they lose the push. They will concede the drake. They will concede herald. They can never contest anything bot river as Cait/Lux will have the push.
This Caedrel LS trend is getting a bit viral ^^
I think caedrel is underestimating how much damage ziggs deals, your e literally halfs most carries in midgame and and potentially one shots them in late. His e is literally one of the most broken zoning tools in the game.
He has 65% ap and 295 base on a 3 second cd.
Passive is 50% ap damage that he will usually use on people in close range
W yes only 50%, but that is quite high for cc spells and is insane when combined with your e and q
E 30%+12 per any other bomb, which is usually like 3 to four Bombs setting up a free q and w even, if the it doesn’t throw you through more e bombs, that is likely a oneshot later on any time you have to move in choke or you just can’t contest
And ult being either like 65% or 100% in the middle (j4 ult makes it pretty much undogable)
Also rakan will usually have to get around Ashe ult and slow, ziggs w and e and ezreal e (potentially serildas grudge slow to).
I'm surprised, considering how much he watches LPL. Jackeylove picks Ziggs a lot
Holy church of LS
@@cremlindor6607 Jackeylove has picked it 2x. Once vs WE (trash team) and the other vs IG(trash team).
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg WE and IG are middle of the pack teams, but even then, what does that have to do with Caedrel not knowing about Ziggs' damage output?
@@cremlindor6607 "I'm surprised, considering how much he watches LPL. Jackeylove picks Ziggs a lot"
One, ziggs is not picked a lot. 2 is not a lot. Can we agree with that?
Two, Ziggs in all those games is not getting perm prio at all. He's been used to have AP damage playing a poke centric draft. That's it. If you watch LPL then you can see Ziggs never is winning lane. It's a weak side pick.
10:25 I understand (somewhat) what ls is trying to do but caedrel is kind of spot on there lmao
I'm just glad LS got a few games in LCS as a draft coach. Remember when Fudge won with Ivern mid? :^)
Aaaaaa dont remind me of that heartbreak. That could have been such an interesting team
More like its whoever laned against lost to that shit
@@Tropical_Panda I can't forget it because he *finally* got to put his money where his mouth is.
Only LCS can be used as both as a meme region and a region where LS drafts proved it worked well with a sample size of 3 games lol.
ZIggs ADC and yone mid couldve been good I think
Himmer/Ziggs maybe even Veigar plus Maokai woulda been a good 2,3 from fnatic. Feel like going past that is kinda pointless as I'm sure ban 4 and 5 on both sides would of changed after that so god knows what the comps would of ended up as. Gragas and Xayah hate zone control and poke just seems good. Or am I still too hard stuck gold?
Personally veigar maokai ashe makes means mercs have far too much value in the team comp. Ashe heimer into xayah rakan is interesting but idk if they can win hard enough and ziggs was already brought up so no point covering again.
25:00 u can flex the liss support (or u can flex it top with stuff like aftershock has to be more simple to stay alive top weakside) has it can let u open up the mid pick (if they pick the azir or other long range mage) and lets her be a good shutdown for there adc and if they want to play non long range mid then u can play her mid opening the support to try and get them with a pick to help the bot lane
I love how different your guys logic is an yet you still agree, you look at whats best for the teams players while LS looks at it like if the draft gap is big enought the player diff doesnt matter. I mostly agree with LS way of looking at it but its fun to watch you to
I'm currently pooping whilst drinking coffee and smoking a cigarette
i honestly didn't listen but LS something something kite backwards
I think Zeri is the problem here. Even if Vi can not pick Xayah, Ashe arrow and Vi ult has a lot of synergy. I like Ezreal more than Sivir here, as the Ez RW with Vi ult at lvl 6 would be enough to take out someone. This also fits in LeBlanc and Ornn.
Or they should have just picked Zeri Lulu and scaled.
Don't say that playing ziggs on aram is good, he is abysmal there, in good game you will have average dmg and on bad almost suport level, nerf on dmg frmo over 1000 units and nerf on his dmg and easynes on closing distans to you he is just bad
Oscar inting it s better done with ornn cause he can be usefull eventualy i totaly agree
Caedrel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So basically it's draft for/against players (caedrel) vs. Draft for/against champions/teamcomp (LS)
@@Shreddasaurus Both of their philosophies can be correct… there is no definitive ‘correct’ mindset when it comes to competitive LoL. Ls’s whole point is that at the absolute highest level, drafting for/against champions is the best, which I think has some validity. Take T1 for example, because all of their players are so insanely talented individually and can pilot pretty much anything, they can have more diverse drafts and gain huge advantages through matchups alone. G2 is another example, to a lesser extent, of this philosophy working.
However, in reality, MOST teams don’t have the fundamental individual mechanics and synergy to pull this off. So playing towards comfort and your players strengths is going to be better. There is a limit to how good that is, however, when you start facing teams that can pilot almost anything.
@@Shreddasaurus Actually LS was a really successful coach and he got kicked (seemingly) because of interpersonal conflict in the org. It's really disingenuous to discredit his analysis and drafting based on that when his drafts in C9 were super successful for the time he was there. I understand you're a hater and nothing will change that but saying his ideas never had any success is pretty bullshit.
@@Shreddasaurus ah yes because his c9 4-1 in 2 weeks is a mistake not c9 jacks shitty management of kicking star players and coaching out of nowhere 🤦♂️.
@@signaturr Disagree. A lot of LS takes are based on shallow analysis, low elo game play, and trying to stall for 10 years. G2 is not a good example of this working considering at worlds they never played their flexible style at worlds. It also got stomped hard when they did deviate at worlds.
@@darrenfleming7901 Successful coach? lmao what?
i don’t know that much about drafts, but wouldn’t ryze also be decent for FNC this game?
ls logic kinda weak here vi lb orn bad because it s engage into xayah/rakan/gragas but wants j4 and ziggs, who forces ad mid (yone/yasuo/irelia/zed/qiyana?) who is even worse at that, maybe could be good with jayce open and different jungler
I like how LS suggestions get more and more insane ahhagagagaga
My silver brain: pick Ori/Ahri mid and change the ADC to Jhin with Ashe supp.
Totally forgot Veigar is a champion but considering I've seen Veigar blasted by Gragas 3x in a row, I can't say I agree on Veigar into Grag/Rakan.
All those LS picks were even worse, his midlane ones were decent but anything made 0 sense.
Ziggs is not weak at all. :/ what
Velkoz would have been good for fnc no?
caedrel is making me want to one trick ziggs to see if he actually is that shit. but i don't know i really like the zigg pick or even vel koz against the xayah
Works in low elo so I can see you having good results.
24:15 If you're getting flanked as an Ashe then that's a player problem not a a draft problem.
So who is playing then?? As there is no one who hasn't been flanked on poke picks.
@@ClickHere4Naruto As I said, that's a player problem not a draft problem. You should never be getting flanked when you have an Ashe on your team period.
That is exactly the problem with poke comps or reactionary comps that ls loves to draft. They are very good if they are able to keep you at arms length but the problem is that you have to walk a much tighter line of execution than say just picking champs that have the ability to start fights whenever they want. Mess up once with a comp that has a very difficult time actually starting fights (for example the ziggs/ashe/j4/ezreal comp) and you are essentially unable to get back into the game because the enemy team can just muscle you off of any objective once they obtain a lead.
It depends on the strengths of your players. Poke comps benefit a lot from players who know to stall things out, play safe and waveclear until the opposing champs are useless. I dont think being careful about controlling flanks is harder than the mid-jungle coordination or the lane timings needed to play more standard comps. Especially with ashe that helps control flanks really well, and the suggested Sion to play bodyguard
So funny how LS just doesn't take into account the limited champion pool of Rekkles.
Its all theory crafting, no reality involved.
yeah this is basically philosophy but under the proxy of a draft, and a game
yeah well LS argues that if a pro player can't learn the champions that the team needs then that makes them a bad player and I kinda agree with him. Every champ you can't play is like giving the other team a free ban.
@@darrenfleming7901 It's like when Nemesis was on Fnatic. He was basically an Ori/Lucian two trick. Then when teams banned it out he had nothing to play.
@@darrenfleming7901
The champs that the team needs? With meta changes, different team comps and thinking about the match up?
It's not about learning, because if you can't learn them, obviously you are bad. LS rather wants them to have an insane champion pool ready to play perfectly at every time - that's not possible, for literally no one.
@@itsjustgod9034 no, LS wanted players who would take a couple weeks to really learn any pick he needed in the drafts he crafted to at least see the full potential of the pick. That's why I think he's right to criticize how people draft and look at meta picks. Drafting in pro play is basically just one big sunk cost fallacy where everyone plays the same champs all the time because they've practiced those champs more but then when they get the opportunity to practice new picks they just try to perfect those same old champs because they are convinced they're the best because they get played a lot. Basically: "We need to play these champs because it's what we practiced, but we need to practice these same champs because it's what everyone is playing" that is sunk cost in a nutshell.
Pros prove that they can learn picks quickly because whenever a champ gets reworked or released everyone learns it in like a week tops, so anyone who argues they can't learn all the picks the coach needs is basically admitting they have a preference against that champ, and then the point is that the players shouldn't be making that judgment of whether a champ is worth to learn or not, that is literally what the coach is paid to do.
No subtitles? D:
I am NOT a robot.
Wp
Why dont Fnc go Ashe Jhin?
if they went for ashe first, and they needed to keep xayah under tower with pushing, then wouldn't elise be high value for turret dive potential (for FNC)? just wondering
not with zeri because she really can't tower dive for shit or push lane for that matter. With any other adc I think that would've been good, then the LB pick makes more sense, they can play the og fnatic style where jg helps get mid pushed and mid jg go pitch a tent botside and camp for dives. But again this just shows that the Zeri Ashe botlane is such a jarring mismatch that it kills all of those possibilities.
I mean LS went too hard on the draft side. In vacum most of the things he sais has a valid point but you have to take into consideration who are you play against. For e.g. when Nemesis was in Fnatic in finals where G2 knew that they have to ban 2 champions on mid and Fnatic would not pick something that fits theire composition, because the player was limitied with his pool.
Camille was in my opinion the best possible pick. You are winning hard vs Ornn on lane and you actually have kill preasure. When you would pick Janna/Karma Ornn would have time to scale without bigger problem. Also as Caedrel ment Camille is great into Zerii LB. Every time Zeri wants to dash out from the fight through the wall you just R her and that's the end of her kaiting potential.
IDK why fnatic picked VI though. They saw Xayah and you just can't R her and the biggest strenght of Vi is already negated. Was it deny against Vitality because they wanted Zeri? That could be the logick I guess.
G2 is hard to draft against which makes them come out on top in drafts. Some of their drafts are giga weirdge but everyone in G2 seems like hard cracked and annoying to play against
Imagine suming the ornn pick as a safe tank for inting toplaner inspite of multiple tangents about REASON usage in picking team
Razork is the big problem. No idea how nobody sees this . He is useless. He doesn’t get his carry’s ahead and is so passive and so many bad calls. It’s insane .
I find myself agreeing with Caedral on 95% of the takes
I just love how the two view the game.
LS looks things as the absolute best answer looking past the players and objectively stating how the would be played with 5 robots.
He is still correct but it only works when the players are absolute machines. His words hold a lot of validity due to the fact that I think pros should still listen to some his analysis and reasoning because in terms of game knowledge he is one of the best at the game, the only thing you need to keep in mind with him is that he strips the human aspect out of the game and places in 5 robots that will not do mistakes.
Imo caedrel is the opposite of ls in terms of how he views the game. He takes into account the players and what they would want to do. He knows the limits of players and their strengths to lay out analysis that makes sense to humans. He takes in account of other game plans and champ pools alongside the mentalities of the players.
Both would make absolutely amazing coaches, I think caedrel is the more flexible coach that could uplift a weak team into a decent one. I think LS would be an amazing coach when you put him into select teams with open minds and are willing to practice on orthodox stuff that would allow them to just draft diff everyone. If you put LS into a really bad team with bad mental the team will crumble, but if you put him into a team like T1 who is just filled with absolute psychos that already has champion oceans and mechanics, they would make a nigh unbeatable team. Caedrel would still be absolutely amazing with stronger teams and reinforcing them, but he won’t have the niche knowledge that LS would utilize.
I think everyone should just start realizing that both are correct and their opinions are all valid. Both are amazing content creators with entertaining personalities. Appreciate both of them for their flaws and good qualities and stop spreading toxic remarks about people who actually know their stuff.
No this is not even remotely true at all lol.
Where does the idea that the ideas proposed by LS only work with robots come from?
1. A lot of his historic picks that he advocates for alot like Malphite, Fiddle and Soraka/Ivern are actually mechanically much more simple. Playing simple champs which hard counter enemy draft completely (aka thematic counters) or counter enemy picks (vacuum answers) give the players an advantage in the game and actually allow them to make MORE mistakes and still end up favored to win due to inherent champion dynamics.
2. A lot of current meta isn't actually meta but comfort and while I understand comfort and proficiency being important, pro players also learn new champions very very quickly (exemplified by basically everyone being able to play ksante now even though hes a newer champ). This also means that players learning and expanding champion pools through dedicated practice is not as difficult as people make it out to be.
3. If youre already losing by playing meta cause your team is just overall worse rn, why shouldnt you try to optimize and gain as much of an advantage as possible in draft when youre already worse? The opponent being completely unfamiliar with the matchup should also make up for your lower comfort on the champion anyways even disregarding the fact pros seem to provably learn champions very quickly.
aside from that tho i agree with a lot of what you've stated in terms of the differences between LS and Caedrel
@@En1gmaCypher
For 1. I’m more talking about game plans and near perfect knowledge of matchups and extremely difficult champ choices (when taken into context) picks like rengar bot,roaming supp top/mid, adc(that is not named trist) top, etc require a lot of practice and an entirely different game plan that needs to be scrimmed to absolute death. And even then when you reveal those picks people will find decent counter play early on and when you bust it out the enemy team should have something to counter the strat. Furthermore people have preference and comfort + mentals, we all know pros could be stubborn and just be unhappy leading to complications later on. You need to be absolutely willing an open minded to actually follow through with LS’s game plan.
2. Playing a champ like it’s archetype (or a version of it) is very different to an entirely new strategy/game plan that requires a lot of knowledge outside of mechanical piloting. Furthermore it’s not all pro’s from what I see worse teams/players just struggle on learning new champs and outright int on some of them, (Azir top and whatever the heck Keira is doing being some of em) though it is correct for better players (for example Keira) but for some (swordart etc) they absolutely struggle on their champs. Yes they learn champs easier than normal players, but when you take into context that some players make other players seem normal you start to understand why I said better teams. Some just can’t keep up with the champ library required to utilize the absolute potential of LS and his knowledge. Even when he actually coached he said himself that he had to adjust to his players and allowed them to pick comfort to allow them to play the best they could as a player.
3. Again if you are losing there is probably a big reason why. It’s either you aren’t as skilled as the other teams or you lack proper knowledge and coaching, the former LS cannot fix but the latter there is a chance as long as they aren’t mental gapped by other players too. And lastly yeah that could play a factor but unless it’s international events where people don’t scrim each other as much, the other team likely knows and has research on your champ. Furthermore some potential counter play is not burdened by unfamiliarity but rather by common sense. Example let’s say you pick a support mid that has no prio, if the enemy picks a champ that could just roam too other lanes and absolutely stop whichever lane is winning for the enemy, forcing your team into a very uncomfortable situations that they have to know how to deal with. You can’t just pick a strat and hope that the enemy team doesn’t know how to deal with it, on the off chance that they do you are absolutely finished, the chances of this is amplified in regional tournaments, as there is more ways for people to see that you are practicing said strat.
I’m not saying all of his ideas can only be piloted by robots, I’m saying that to fully utilize his knowledge you need to be near the peak of human capability.
@@zackrasphodos.2305 Yeah i mostly agree except for certain details, i just always push back on the idea that players need to be at their peak/near robotic to be able to play counters in draft and then because of that dismiss everything else when it just isn't logically true at all. Like as if its more difficult to play a winning matchup than to handshake an even/slightly losing matchup.
I also think tho that with current state of draft/itemization/runes (optimization in general) that even when teams know certain picks might be coming, they wouldn't necessarily know the proper counter to it. Like how many times have you seen teams draft self counterpicks like hard engage into xayah botlane.
LS wants to be good at this game so bad, such a poser
To say that Oscarinin is bad is just unfair, he is top 15 in soloq with over 1k lp in challenger. Did he play bad in competetive games? Yes relativly bad. But all the competetive players should be able to play a wide range of champions with acceptable results. Therefore I agree more with LS than I do with Caedrel.
I think they should have picked Tristana or Sivir on B3 instead of Zeri. Also, why can we not ask a pro player to be practiced enough to pilot Sion and Ornn on similar levels.
I don't think tristana is good into Xayah Rakan. Also trist is not the strongest champ in the meata as she can be ganked very easily. Vi would have to hover bot 24/7
@@zsomborszigeti6797 ok i agree with the meta point but thats the problem with drafting now which is LS's point. Tristana can be flexed mid which makes it a bit stronger. And she can help push the lane with her passive to get prio. These teams arent thinking at all imo they just default to picks they feel comfortable playing.
@@javinusher8148 Tristana is useless if she doesn't get plates though. Sivir and Ziggs can also get prio, but they can actually use it to move around the map. Humanoid is also a control mage player and doesn't have a very big champion pool. If you pick tristana mid you have to have and AP jungler or an apc, Razork can't play farming junglers and the only non-farming jungler that's AP is Elise, and sejuani both of which is not great into Xayah Rakan and Gragas. The apc's you can pick are Seraphine and Ziggs who want to be weak sided and can't really do much with mid prio.
@@zsomborszigeti6797 I agree with your general thought process about trying to keep a balanced damage profile. But if you have to compromise your entire ideology behind drafting, then you just need to get new players lol. If i can't play specific pics because one or two players are too limited in their beliefs and or play then thats just crazy. I don't think some of these champions are that difficult to the point where they should not want to play it. We can go back and forth with counter points but this should be the highest level of play in the region. Especially if the skill disparity is very high, they should try something a big unorthodox to throw off the other team instead of drafting 'meta' picks.
@@javinusher8148 there is no proplayer who can play anything
I can't listen LS anymore, he is so unpleasant for me :)
Caedrel so godly professional! Fascinating! U played it through!
One of my main issues with LS is that he takes out the human aspect of the game, he created this perfect scenarios in his head for players to execute with drafts and playstyle without taking into consideration that is Humans playing the game not AI that will make the perfect decision every time.
or that every player plays well with every champion they're given, or that they're comfortable playing every champion if its the right champion xd
he has prefaced many times that he is using a perfect world scenario. doesn't always work; but he's just talking about the purely hypotheticals.
you memeing?
So dogshit drafts are somehow better for "humans" and optimal drafts are actually harder to play. I see
@@kklap3219 thats not what he meant lol. I rather have one or two picks that are a little worse in my team if its a comfort pick for the players instead of inting picks
painful viewing experience the first 5 minutes not even really listening
LS' thoughts on the game are so absurd when placed into the lens of an ACTUAL pro game.
I have a better theory...
Dont start the draft with an Ashe.
noice
At the end of the day I think we can all agree Vi pick was SOOO BAD.
Yeah I agree. LS has a lot of game knowledge, but man he can't take players into account when drafting, what can they play and how they feel on stage. And also him giving prio on flex champ like seraphine over champ strenght like zeri or vi is weird.
Because he believes that players being payed a shit ton of money for playing should adapt to the situation and play whatever they have to regardless of what they feel because they should want to win and make progress.
But at the same time they are humans, LS just has an ideal way to play and he wants the whole league proplay scene to get there, every single time LS talked about for example the F keys he was told that players couldn't do that and it was impossible to put into practice, yet here we are.
he basically said the idea of them locking in vi and zeri which is a shit combo together, while the vi getting countered by the xayah and gragas is bad...didnt say that zeri and vi where bad champs...but im 99% sure that they picked the zeri vi so that zeri wont have to play against vi.
Other than that, yes, players are accountable. when a player is being payed to play on stage 6 months minimum per year , a video game he plays for the past 10 years, he should be able to have a big champ pool. and thats one of the traits that differs the good from the great. your draft is shit. and imagine mid matchup and team comp is good with maybe 3 champs. but oh wait, your 50k euro per year mid laner refuses to play them. since he is afraid from underperforming on stage. so you lose the game anyways, but at least he played leblanc and went 1/1/1.
@@jakeashworth7275 proficient but not an expert, only the best can master champions at the top level,
@@tannerlea9721proficient is enough.
Gragas being picked by midlaners everygame proves LS point
Just because Faker played it, everyone started doing so
Players aren't unable to learn new champs on the spot, they are just lazy
T1 drafts improved with Bengi at worlds but we still lost the final on draft. besides first hle series in 2023 the drafts have been good this season yeah.
btw I asked photon on his stream whose idea camille was and he said it was all his idea and they never played it in scrims. such a smart player such a monster R5 into zeri LB and against ornn and a player struggling for confidence there for the taking in the 1v1 + even setup with JG.. best player in the league Photon.
Nah a big reason is because Zeus was sick. Zeus got giga diff by Kingen. Now we see Kingen is back to a meme while Zeus not sick was playing the banjo on Kingen head. He was going boom bop boom bop.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg was a factor but if you think giving aatrox azir cait isnt draft diff you need glasses. and they also ended up with no cc no engage btw. bengi admitted the mistakes in draft in the final in press conferences, it is what it is.
@@steliosp1770 I agree with you to an extent. Aatrox yes. However, T1 bot did answer Caitlyn. What ruined T1 in game 5 was Zeus VOLUNTARILY all in the aatrox and getting smacked. Despite T1 having a huge lead bot they decide to contest rift herald with an already LOSING TOP SIDE and bleeding more gold. This gave more of a time for DRX to scale and get eventually out comp. T1 just allowing Zeus to play weak side and playing for bot would've been over.
Don't forget the giga game 2 throw either. Huge game play issues with Zeus running it down. Zeus lost the Fiora into aatrox match up. Zeus made aatrox look balanced as well.
The players also admit their own fault as well. Turns out everyone blamed each other who could have guess selfless people would do that *shrugs
@@steliosp1770 That's the thing that baffled me. You got your ass caved in by Kingen's Aatrox and no one thought to ban it away from him. Then you go and first pick Karma that did fuck all all game long
"He picked a good matchup for his lane and most of the other picks in this lineup"
Omg, he is completely insane, smart, a monster and the best player in the league.
What? How did it escalate that quickly?
I remember Vitality ending up 5th place against a SK, where Vitality should demolate SK completely on paper... With the best, smartest, completely insane player in the league - dude, Photon is good but stop being completely delusional. He ain't THAT good.
Mad lions played with worse jungle, slightly better mid lane, absolutely worse adc and support on the kinda same level mostly around top side and got 2nd place.
Vitality also played a lot of games around top side, even with the best player in the league (!!!!!) and... Got 5th?
Me thinking Ahri would be good for FNC draft on R4 then Pedro later says that Ahri might work.
I felt like a genius ngl
B1 Ashe
B2 Jarvan
B3 Tristana for disengage
B4 Swain/Seraphine
B5 Jax/Sion
xdd
LS got those ADHD analogies
Source: I got ADHD
he got diagnosed with autism like 3 weeks ago lol
@@djkraken2563 Yes, I know. He also has ADHD. Thats why I can say it without acting like a doctor
LS opinion is more like what is better when 2 AI would play to perfection which KR is closer to in reality than the west. Caedrel opinion looks more west players oriented and what is achievable in the given circumstances.
Almost. LS likes to still put more onus on scaling that ignore how a team can play from behind.
hi
The only contradiction I have when LS is talking about league is that he is still analyzing the game as if every character in the game is only played by a single player like RTS or card game. The theme that he is talking about is being 1 mind which doesn't work because the game is being played by 5 minds trying to work together. Everyone has their own input on which will work or not and it is being done on the fly unlike RTS wherein you only care about what you think is right. Not everyone is seeing this "theme" that are you talking about.
I mean, stuff like pick, poke, scaling, engage, etc. are pretty universally accepted themes that champions can have. Everyone would agree that varus has poke, that zeri or azir have scaling, that ashe has pick, and so on so it's not really up to interpretation. The extent to which your picks need to fit together is debatable, but what the champs can actually accomplish is not really up for debate.
@@darrenfleming7901 Nah like Caedrel said he likes Sivir better than Ezreal but LS thinks otherwise. Other players might think Aatrox is a better meat shield than Sion or Gragas plus they might like the other aspects that the other champions brings (example: it fits their playstyle more) over the "right" champion to pick. Again its 6 different minds (plus coach) trying to "collaborate" not "to be one".
I like LS. There are time he seems like he always needs to be the smartest guy in the room. It seems like he always hates the meta. No one is playing Seraphine right now, he’s acting like it’s a meta pick.
DCinside LS is consider a meme analyst. In the west no clue how he has a following. Then again America made a following for a person who shot people with guns.
pedro save Fnatic
Personally I really don't like LS and I don't know why people likes him.
feels like ls can ramble about anything for 3 hours straight without saying much in the end :D
LS has no idea what hes saying
and you bronze player know it?
@@steverichman4962 at least I'm the best Bronze player in the world
In all honesty FNC is underpeforming to such a degree that I would even go as far to say that they are currently the worst team in LEC right now. Unlike TSM who is destroying their competition in like 3-0 fashion every game. Even pro players from the LPL and LCK go as far as to say that TSM is going to win Worlds this year if they perform on the same level as they do right now.
#TSMWINSWORLDS2023
Wtf did I just read