Talking about BDG Disband...
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- čas přidán 1. 03. 2024
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Link to the article:
bigdumb.gg/news/bdg-disbanding
Hey guys, recently legendary raiding guild BDG decided to call it quits after competing in the RWF for the past 3-4 years. In this video I'll go over my thoughts of it aswell as a lot of talk about the state of RWF raiding in general. o7.
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RTWF basically a gold farming contest - splits/gold requirements prevents any guilds outside the top 2 or 3 from even having a chance.. The whole RTWF ends up feeling like a scripted Harlem Globetrotters vs Washington generals match.
The fact echo & liquid openly poach the best players from lower ranked guilds by using their financial and PR leverage, means it's not really a race at all.
This is why it needs done on a tournament realm like MDI to be “legitimate.” Give all guilds the same ilvl gear to pick from and see who plays better. It’s probably still Liquid and Echo but then people would stop saying it’s money related
its still a race between the two of them so what you're saying is nonsensical as an argument
Competing to be the first to clear has ALWAYS existed. The difference is once guilds decided to stream their raids instead of releasing the kill videos after. Just because streamers figured out how to do what they love AND make a living at it doesn't means it's rigged. The reason it's down to only a couple guilds is because they are the small handle of players capable of killing the content while simultaneously creating the strats, creating weak auras, crunching the numbers required to maximize and having the dedication to play 16 hours a day until its cleared.
@@johnwarner4178 naww man, we gotta sell WoW tokens
@@johnwarner4178 it would still be about the money. You have 2 guilds getting decent money to play in a "tournament" And the rest gets bleh money.
The RWF is boring and have been for years. Its just about the general public have less to do and have nothing else to grip into.
But these players fall off one by one. Soon the entire RWF is just a commercial.. More then it is today.
so in Short , Money wins the race
It's just like sports. A mediocre club signs a player that turns out really good, and you know they're gonna leave for a top club at some point. Although in this scene it's a lot easier to jump ships, as there's no big factors like moving countries.
if money won the race, Liquid should be winning it every time tho. They have by far the more money to back them up
You and echo kinda rigged the game. No guild has the capacity and budget to compete with your 2 guilds. Except may be for method but it's still a long way to go.
cant hate them for that I mean its a race and echo liquid go hard
@@gregsimard-ol1hr I mean it's also a bit hypocritical to then pretend that there's a crisis going on at the top level of mythic raiding that you care about and needs to be resolved when you're the exact root cause of it. Sure, you can't 'blame' these two guilds for y'know, competing to the best of their ability. However it's still seriously ironic to talk about issues that need fixing that you're directly responsible for. That's the truth of the situation nobody seems to want to talk about or seems to preferably sweep under the rug with thought-terminating clichés like your comment.
@@QPoily It's a bit disingenious to frame it as if "the two guilds" are responsible for it. Liquid caught up, they didn't help create this problem. I don't mean this to say that I think it is right to blame Method either, but it is factually not the case that this situation was caused by both of the guilds. It wasn't. Method had monopoly on all of the money, and then Complexity caught up.
@@QPoilyI mean he knows hes the problem but what incentive does he have to become the solution, not only is he improving the odds of everyone who looks up to him but he offers opportunities to the people that come in from yhese lowwer brackets. Its not selfless but its not selfish either, it just is what it is, meritocracy be like that
@@QPoily There's no incentive for them to change though. The system just simply doesn't allow for them to, unless they want to give up their own sponsors and chances at world first. Sponsors will simply sponsor a team that will do what's necessary to win so they can get their viewers. Blizz needs to change the ecosystem to make splits and gold farming irrelevant, or else this is the natural outcome.
Watching BDG via CherryVodka and Snutz in Antorus and start of BFA is what got me in to watching high end raiding. Pouring one out.
at 12:14 i felt it in my soul, that is what happend to our guild in shadowlands from CN to SoD and it was so hard to find more people on a dead server before the cross server and cross faction stuff
This kind of feels like a problem for any guild trying to up their game play. My most recent guild was mainly a heroic guild that would do maybe the first 3 on mythic. Then I joined and pulled in a feel friends that were also former higher end raiders which lead to the guild doing like 6 bosses on mythic and leadership is like this is fun lets try and push to be a more progression focused team and try to build up for cutting edge. For the next 3 tiers any time we got someone good enough to be cutting edge they fall off in a few months or end of the raid tier because we could never get 20 cutting edge people and always had 8-12 people strong players and carrying people that either didn't care or were not skilled enough for the remaining spots losing our best players over and over but never being able to replace the others with like minded players. It was one of the worse experiences I have ever had and is why I'm not currently raiding.
This is every raiding guild.
IF you get better players, the guild progresses more, but better players means also (comparatively) worse players "getting carried". And the goal post gets moved. People on both ends of this deal get burned out for either feeling held back or feeling like they are holding their team back.
So people stop raiding and then more players get recruited and the cycle continues.
Had the same experience. Its basically impossible to get 20 people with alligning goals and commitment. Good players will move on to better guilds and some players lacking commitment to put in enough effort to prog. And it always feels like the team is hanging on by a thread. Way too much work for leadership replacing people for no return.
Ion and the WoW Team refuse to change the arbitrary bullshit rules regarding 20m Mythic. Therefore the raiding scene in general just becomes smaller and smaller. It needs to be nearly dead before they are willing to change it. So be it, I quit CE raiding in BfA and it was the best decision of my life. Some of the decisions are pure incompetence up there.
I vibe with ya. Had a similar scar after Nathria. Tho back then we didn't even go for myth, just lots and lots of vipes on Heroic and people not willing to put in minimal effort as well as my working schedule being horrible for raiding. Gladly, my current guild despite classifying ourselves as casuals have been able to ammend it. We raid like 2 days per week, do full clear of HC, always welcome everyone from our guild, gear them up, teach em and even then it's like 8 people at best. The rest? Well, we just cycle through pugs xD We're in to have fun and vibe, while also getting some loot on the side. So glad I joined them
edit: I should probably note that by "casuals" our guild means, is that we're not focused on prog or gear acqusition. Everyone does their best, sure, because everyone wants to gear or prog, but we don't really sweat if something goes sideways
This is like the average experience doing M. The same thing happened to me, I remember getting really tired raiding with some guys, really nice and cool people to chill doing other shit but god awful for mythic raiding. By the next tier I just stop caring and I dropped, and since I hang out for a bit the same experience was for others, good players complaining about others, and not so good players being benched forever to use better players, thing that does make sense if that's what you apply for but feels different if you're a chill guild that went try hard on mythic from one day to another, and failed at the end.
I mean no disrespect to max, but the RWF is literally just a scripted event on Echo vs Liquid. Y’all have the most financial power, you can poach any player in the game. You have a significant advantage beyond any other guild. Even the community only farms for y’all and echo. It’s not like another guild can compete with you two anyway. They lack the same resources.
The game isn't designed around skill. It's designed around who is willing to invest (waste) the most time. If you removed the litany of barriers to entry, then skill expression could shine. This is what makes games like chess & sports like soccer impressive in terms of high level play since the barrier to entry is relatively low. WoW is closer to a sport like Polo where you need a literal horse to be able to play.
@@michaelharbach1987 that's the comment of someone that sucks at the game.
@@sil3ntearth2013 You must be dense.
@@michaelharbach1987 possibly, but I could put all the time in the world into basketball and I’d still never be Michael Jordan or Lebron. Saying all you have to do is spend a lot of time to get good discounts the talent these guys have, and anyone that’s really good at something. Unfortunately despite what you were told you really can’t be anything you set your mind to, at least not the best at it.
@@sil3ntearth2013I see the point is still flying over your head. I'm not saying that there aren't any talented players that would be able to hang if the game had significantly lower barriers to entry. I'm saying that we have no way of knowing who the Jordans/Lebrons are in the first place due to the barriers to entry. There is a vast difference between being a top competitor in a game/sport that is widely accessible versus being the best in a game/sport where it takes a ridiculous amount of time/effort/resources just to get your foot in the door.
Are you able to understand the concept of a barrier to entry? Are you able to understand the concept of barriers to entry limiting the access that potential players have to participating? Are you able to understand that this implies that there is a very real chance that the Michael Jordan of WoW, in terms of raw talent, may never even reach the top to begin with due to all the barriers to entry?
Perhaps the better question is this: Are you able to understand anything at all?
All things aside, love these ‘behind the scenes’ videos, I’m not a high-end raider but always enjoy understanding what’s going there. Mad respects to Lozi, hope all those who’ve been stressing can take a well-needed breather now
I really liked their streams during rwf. cool vibes different vibes from the (over)produced streams like Liquid's and Echo's. Sad this had to happen. Also appreciate you for the real talks about struggles as a guild like theirs and also as a rwf guild in general.
RIP. Bricked up is the best moment of this tier and it’s not even close.
Sooner or later it becomes a one horse race. That’s kind of where we’re at now. Sure, Liquid competes admirably, even taking a world first here and there, but Echo is the guild that really runs the show when it comes to world first racing. It’s impossible for any other guild to compete. They’ll eventually all die off.
Look at what happened in the past; ensidia ran the show, then paragon, then method. It happens man.
Method has without a doubt been cranking it it's pretty hype thinking the possibility of a three horse race rather than 2 could happen
Very sad to lose BDG but this was an inevitability. I think honestly, if we can have an ecosystem with 3 real guilds at the top this is more than ir equal to what weve had historically, and i think the rest of the teams are just going to need to be content with being great guilds that play a lot, but dont really "day raid" for more than a few days per tier. The "bedroom org" model that fills out a lot of esports leagues across the world isnt really auitable fir qow because of how expensive running a race team is. Each guild needsnto support roughly 6 "normal" esports teams worth of people. I think we honestly just need to appreciate that our scene does actually support multiple teams that compete with one another.
Unless they make some serious format changes to the race it will always be Echo vs Liquid, the resources and infrastructure you need to even compete at the top level are insane
"They" ? Its there format why should they change that because some other guilds dont play they stuff beside that?
It its liquid vs echo so be it.
@@Blackbirdone11 they as in blizzard the way the format works now it will always be echo vs liquid unless one or the other blows up, nothing wrong whit that I enjoy it but it sucks for other guild trying in the top 10 trying to be viable when the logistics to raid rwf keep gettinng higher and higher
“Echo turbo farmed pieces” - editor shows echo took two players and liquid took 6.. Okay max lmao
Max has a tendency to throw slight jabs at echo, not a great characteristic but i get it. In the end, they are competitors
what makes you think he meant as in when they disbanded? The way he said that in that context made me think he meant it as in During their time actively being a serious guild, and not regarding the people they took in when the guild disbanded.
Echo "turbo farmed" Pieces when they were active, and a part of why they disbanded. This was a 100% true statement by Max fwiw - Pieces was a huge feeder guild for Echo when it was active. Taking players after the guild disbands is a good thing because it gives those players a home to keep raiding at a high level.
I think it's hard to keep up guilds/organizations for world first when you get burned out every single raid tier and money might not be as good as having a normal job, specially if you drop the ball and get behind the top 5 guilds. I think it's only sustainable if you have some passive income that can keep you afloat for 1 month, wow is your only priority in life (no job or studies) or if you have some insane money from streaming
It must be pretty hard if they aren't streaming individually and earning income that way.
and also no matter how much they put into it, they will never have the money that liquid and echo have to keep it relevant. like RWF is mostly pretty well creator driven which is why it works. ( as opposed to events lik eELague LCS which is hosted by riot) BDG having no funding liek that means they can never compete nor can anyone who isn't top 3.
Raiding overall feels like a job, even heroic ones, you have to work your ass off with other 19 people just to get oneshoted by someone that does a bad job, i already deal with that stuff in my real job, and thats why a hate raiding tbh, its not fun and feels pointless imo.
I really hope you keep the bdg meta thing alive and will incorporate at least 1 brick cam for the big kills. This has to be their legacy from now on.
Most fun I ever had raiding was when I ended up in BDGG heroic alt run mixed with some of their mains during SOD. Cool guys
12:30 Max's that literally the reality of every single CE guild just outside of the HoF
That's the reality of every CE guild outside of world first contenders honestly. Poaching is inevitable. Every guild, even the world first, needs new players. They all pull from one level down.
Someone mentioned this on stream a week before it dropped
Waited 34 minutes to hear Ben thinking about coming back. Lets goooo
Its time for them to stop designing raids and seasons completely around a 2 weeks stream that 60 people take part in then never actually play the game again untill the next raid
Competition is good for everyone, I hope others can catch up.
The writing was on the wall with BDG this tier. A lot of people in that guild were good people. I wish it didn't go this way.
would the RWF be better if you were only allowed to use one character, no splits?
So you mean no progress raiding at all because they have no gear?
i think method is going to make a huge comeback, easily before the next five years.
Thinking there will be rwf in 5years is wild
Until a sponsor wants to back another guild and pay their best players well enough to the point where, when Echo and Liquid come calling, they want to actually say "no", then RWF will forever be a 2 horse race.
It's gotta be so demotivating to lose your best players over and over. And I'm not blaming Echo, I'm not blaming Liquid. It's business for them at the end of the day, and I'm certainly not blaming the players chasing a bigger bag, but it's no surprise that the other guilds don't last.
The RWF has grown with echo and liquid, I kind of wonder if once the two guilds are gone can the race still go on? Or will it die with Liquid and Echo?
You and Echo killed BDG and then say they give up. just okay.
in the end it is Echo vs Liquid
There should be non-sponsored RWF to revisit the days everyday heros and not cherry picked rosters based off monetary gain.
Race to world 3rd has been pretty interesting for a while now. This is sad.
RWF turning into F1 lol
The biggest mistake BDG did was not making new players sign non competes while they were sponsored. If you take on an employee new to the scene you have the right to negotiate a 5 year non compete (of course it would be dependent on staying employed, staying sponsored)
This one is sad :/ BDG has been around for awhile. I'll miss watching Sloot during the race, but I know he's enjoying variety streaming more. Feel like the word first race has become too much for 99% of guilds to compete in. Would be nice to see it "dumbed" down so there were more than 2-3 guilds competing.
If its easier, liquid or echo just win faster.
Blizz would need to somehow stop splits from happening. Also stop Vault gear being so valuable week 1 because PvP and m+ boosting for loot is crazy too. Until that happens Liquid and Echo will continue having to do degenerate shit like that every time that other guilds can't compete with.
Honestly the mass poaching to win is only hurting the scene long term. If no one other than two has any shot more and more people just won’t try. Top teams lose farm teams and quality just goes downhill.
There isn’t an elegant solution to this without affecting the wider player base.
The only solution I can think of is normalized stats and fully and eliminate the need for splits and farm for world first raiding and live raiding be how it currently is without being constrained by rwf gimmicks.
Or they could make world first easier, the fact that in order to be a world first candidate you need to not only be a good player, 95+ parser, multiclasser*/multispec and, above all, be able to commit 2 weeks to 1 month of pure raiding, meaning no family, no job, just gaming is what makes poaching exist. Let's say Mythic raiders are 5% of the server pop, people that get CE are 1%, people that get into the top 200 are 0,1% and people that can world first are a small percentage of even that. The more people into high tier raiding, the better for all guilds involved.
I believe that lowering the difficulty might help get more people into this, maybe make the boss last a week on mythic. Also, a lot of the time are spent on doing splits, which aren't directly the race. We know for a fact that heavily nerfed bosses can still be struggle for most guilds, so why keep the barrier so high?
@@fabianpino4910 I actually agree. Should just be easier and it'd open it up for more people to try
@@fabianpino4910Sometimes content doesn't exist for everyone to complete and that's okay. There'd be no prestige in world first if it was a cakewalk. Most people don't have what it takes and that's okay.
After every tier they should keep officer cores but do a draft for the top world 10. It'll never happen but man would it make it spicy.
"Echo turbofarmed pieces"...6 raiders to liquid only 2 to echo...yep...😅
Soon, there will be no guild on par for limit/echo to pull/recruit/snipe from.
I think its fun that someone puts in as much effort as Echo and Liquid does. But if one of them quits, there is no "Race" anymore. Its always about who of them is gonna win. Would be alot more fun to watch if there was 10 guilds competing on a more equal level for the 1st spot. I think more guilds has the singular player skill, but they just lack that small % that Echo and Liquid can afford in terms of bystanders, number crankers and what not
Does Liquid/Echo paying there players monthly? Or complet no?
Some get paid. Some do it for free.
idk about Echo, but Max has gone over Liquid pay on his stream. Every player on the liquid roster gets a monthly payout. Plus Max splits the money he makes from his stream during the race with everyone on the roster.
Make raid up through heroic infinitely farmable and the resources needed for these guilds to compete properly greatly diminishes.
Hell, just make the "normal" difficulty what heroic is now, and make "heroic" what mythic is now, and let "normal" be infinitely farmable. If you look at kill logs, anyone who goes into normal comes out killing the final boss. If normal isn't a challenge at all then it doesn't need to exist.
@@_d0ser Uh. Normal doesn't exist for a challenge. It exists for friends and families of people who wanna drink beer and YOLO every boss in the raid. It's basically organized LFR. It serves it's purpose.
@@pghcrewThen those people should just do LFR. Those same people can also drink beer and yolo in heroic. Heroic isn't exactly hard either and can easily be done while screwing around. Normal is a useless tier.
@@_d0ser You can't queue a 15 person premade into LFR. I'd argue the useless tier is LFR. Regardless of what tiers should or shouldn't exist, they should be infinitely farmable up through heroic.
@@_d0serthat's the dumbest take I've seen in a long time. You clearly have no idea what's really going on in wow
If you are playing for the money and sponsorship, then that is when the end is near, IMHO. Also the pool of players at that level, I would say is very very low. You can only man so many guilds that can push CE.
Is the solution to having more teams being able to compete having players sign a no compete clause? That would make it so players wouldn't just be able to hop over to another team and maybe keep the talent more spread out. I might also have no clue what I'm talking about
The financial aspect and importance of it in the race to world first became way too much We need to get asap to raiding where skill and tactics matters most and not split runs and the amount of gold your guild have to offer or mythic raiding gonna die out soon for sure
According to the chart that was shared you turbo farmed pieces with 6 players not echo whom only had 2.
Absolutely wild
Not to be a downer to Liquid and Echo, but I think it would be really cool to see someone like ID win a race.
it would be so amazing to see a team come and dominate, it would be so much better than the same old same old
If there was a player who wouldn't add anything to your team, but is a realistic threat to turning anothet guild into a world first competitor, would you try to recruit them just to get rid of the threat?
Yes they would.
We need 10man raiding back
why so liquid and echo can just run both brackets? they will just pay for players like they do now. there needs to be a non sponsored bracket somehow (impossible)
@johnsmith-tw4kv who cares what the top guilds do. 10 man should come back for the health of everyone raiding outside of HoF. Its exhausting keeping 20 people together long term. Most guilds raid team needs rebuilding of 25%+ every single tier...
WoW is not an esport and it never will be. Otherwise, Blizzard would pour money into it, allowing other teams to actually compete beyond the top 2. It's just a monopoly between Echo and Liquid. It's no fun to watch when it's just one of two teams guaranteed to win. The race doesn't even get good until the final boss: everything before is a war of attrition that nobody wants to watch, it would be like watching football teams go shopping for boots and kit before the match xD
Perfect time for blizzard to stop designing mythic for world first guilds
That makes zero sense. rtwf provides them a huge audience, even as a two team race. Why would blizzard give that up?
This wont solv ethe problem. It will kill it.
Maybe the raids has to be super hard the first 2-3 weeks, and getting massively nerfed.
That way you get the viewrs / free advertisemnet for Wow (biggest according to every metric).
And every guild can clear Mythic without needing to play that amount time per day.
@@dimitrisionas9566 They don't have to give that up. Just that shit to tournament realms and stop tuning retail mythic around 100 people on the planet.
@@kor8513 The actual solution is obvious, only requires a little common sense. Blizz can appease both camps. They can tune it for the race then immediatly install diffrent versions of the fight after, or major nerfs. No one outside of the race has any chance to see those fights the first couple of weeks anyway. The lesser skilled guilds still spend more time on the "easier" bosses.
It's only been a big problem when Blizz has been slow to change the fights. This tier for example. Had they taken swifter action like in SFO for example where Anduin received weekly nerfs it wouldn't be a problem.
Mythic is not designed for world first guilds. Its designed for casual mythic raiders to give them content for months. The wfr is designed for them, because these guilds design it in a way to benefit them
When maevey left it was a rip!
I miss the days when vodka was close to the top guild in the game.
The "any guild can compete and win" world first raiding scene was ruined by method, and it looks like Echo is going to do the same thing with the MDI.
yep no one gives a crap about it anymore cause its the same team winning everytime. its boring.
Yeah is it really a competition if the same team wins?
There’s no barriers to entry in the MDI, compared to rwf though ? Not Echo’s fault that they’re just better than everyone at running dungeons
@@anthonytgameaddict yup. RWF is only worth watching if you're interested in echo vs liquid otherwise it's a fucking joke lol if either of those teams breaks up it's not worth watching anymore
@@Azzaaah6no barriers, except of course, for the ability and requirement to play the game as a full time job. Whilst not as high as RWF, genuinely competing to win the MDI is not remotely possible for 99% of wow players. If you think anyone outside of playing the game full time has a chance at beating echo, you really underestimate the time they put in and how good they actually are.
5 years ago i didn't believed that any guild besides Method can take world first Max, so don't put a question like that cuz in one year everything can change let alone 5y.
hypocricy is too real, also pay-irl-money-to-win system is beyond lame
What did ur guild and echo expect to happen ? I’m only shocked it took them this long to disband .
Bingo
The only way RWF would be good.
is if you have 10-20 guilds that are all able to be top 3-4 And it comes down to purely who is better at strats and execution.
but thats my take.
Thinking there will be RWF in 5years is wild
If paragon ever came back, Max would have no chance
If there was more money in WoW this wouldn't be a problem. Method is primarily hard carried by its legacy and would not be in their decent position without it.
NA vs EU also does a lot of carrying in the RWF.
The fact is that the space isn't big enough for people to care about 2nd or 3rd place guilds. Let alone people below that, so nobody is going to fund you if you're not likely to win.
I've watched the last 2 expansions races extremely closely and the skill of Echo and Liquid has only risen and the difference between them and everyone else gets bigger every tier.
WoW is not an esport, maybe 10 years ago it could have been but the infrastructure and demand for the RWF just isn't there and it's most definitely peaked the last 2-3 races.
edit: inb4 someone replies with viewers numbers. A lot of those were literally embedded. I don't trust them at all and Max's stream and the Echo main stream have platue'd hard.
Its the same in any other sport. You know the 3 nfl team? No. The 3 placed f1 driver? No. Because it dont matter. If you not 1 or 2 you do t matter
@@Blackbirdone11 1) that's not true at all and you'd realise that if you weren't america-centric probably
2) even if I accepted your premise if coming 2nd / 3rd / 4th isn't financially viable in a sport then that sport has a huge problem. Every successful esport (even fucking Call of Duty) it is more than ok financially not to win.
MMOs are not inherently competitve so even with WoW's 2 million ish active subs it's nowhere near enough to sustain an esport and the difficulty of the content being completely unrelatable to most of the playerbase (albeit not people in youtube comment sections who will inherently be the "sweatier" players). If you simultaneously decreased the barriers to entry (which incl. difficulty) and increased the player count WoW Esports would become viable quite quickly.
I love how pompous you are discussing how your livelihood is imploding
RIP BDG
I see echo and method long term. With liquids current leadership all I see is loss.
"echo turbo farmed pieces" pepelaugh
Imagine playing “competitive” wow in 2024.. a game where you literally program addons to solve the game.. it should be a programming competition tbh
As a former US Top 5 guild raider from like......2005 to 2013, I always appreciate your insight Max. Especially selling Pizzas for gold in Cataclysm to feed raiders consumables, lol.
Pls poach and recruit the bricked up guy
Good timing, the first "Temple of Febe - Cerus CM" world race in Guild Wars 2 has just been completed by SnowCrows after 9 days (76 hours of gameplay).
ArenaNet, in their congratulations to SnowCrows for the legendary gaming achievement within the GW2 community, announces that they will permanently keep the World First difficulty level as a kind of "Legendary" CM (+ title) option for everyone in the game.
Blizzard would do well to reconsider its raids in terms of design, team size, buff food/potions, etc., and to switch the system like ANet (no new raids, but several strikes = 1 boss/2-3 difficulty levels, 10-player teams, buff food/potions that persist even after death).
This would free up design and player resources, which are currently tied up in a complete raid (losing value with each new content patch), and could be better utilized in WoW.
I'd prefer to watch the RtWF with guilds that do not buy gear, get analysts, do splits, etc. I'd prefer the RtWF to be hosted by Blizzard like the MDI. Presently, Liquid, Echo, other guilds that pour significant real money into the RtWF are no different than other monopolies irl like Amazon. It would be refreshing to see guilds that do not pay their way into the RtWF.
Liquid and Echo just bought out the competition basically.
Losing BDGG sucks, but people blaming Echo or Liquid for that is nonsense. This is literally how the world works in every sport/esport etc.
Every better team in football or whatever sport grabs the best players from the lower team. Its the reality. The top 2 guilds get players from the top 5. Top 5 from top 10 and etc.
Its the world we live in.
As someone with a guild that has maybe 10 skilled players and the rest is casuals that we like to raid with.. wed love a mythic 10 version, 20 is just way too much, but whenever someone mentions this you just get yelled at :D
Make the world first race a proper event on dedicated tournament realms. Eliminates the need to have hundreds of millions in gold to pay traders, no split runs where you have to find hundreds of people, no need to level, maintain and gear an army of alts either.
The barrier of entry to actually compete would be far far lower and we could see much more actual competition instead of only the top 2-3 guilds that has the insane ressources required to compete.
Blizzard can do this for the MDI, TGP and AWC but not for the biggest event of them all?
Commenting here so I can see what people have to say to this. I've seen this comment so many times and people always find a way to disagree with it.
Max explained this, I maybe misremember something cause it's been years, but basically the race without gearing is not something people playing would actually want as it eliminates the rpg element of the game. Nothing matters except individual performance and raid comp.
What I think.
Every single boss will have the best raid comp with little to no variation, because any character can have any gear. Just play what's best.
Gear that you dropped from previous bosses or from weekly chest doesn't exist.
Do people that make boss encounters now also have to make a gear template for every single spec and every boss and have the ability to change it on the fly in case the tuning is not quite right?
Or do players just get gear from vendors and it somehow updates to account for the number of bosses killed to emulate natural mythic drops from already killed bosses?
Or do they have access to heroic gear only or only mythic, do they have to then balance bosses differently for these raiders because of the kind of gear they have access to?
If bosses drop loot like regular and you can equip it then there's not much point to all this thing is there? Since the gear is not really normalized for everyone, like in regular game.
The barrier is now lower and more people can play, but when everyone play the same thing with the same gear it really boils down to skill, which is also experience therefore the ladder would barely change because Liquid and Echo have the most experience and the most important kind of experience like creating strategies and not copying them like place 3 and lower do.
That would be the case for a time until more people gain enough experience to compete and it'll turn into literal MDI, a game of strategy and skill.
Now the most important, if there is a tournament realm where people compete for RWF what happens to regular game? While they play tournament their real regular realm characters just don't progress. There will still be people trying to get RWF in regular game. There are now two races. Wonder which one people would choose and which one everyone would count as a real one. For that to not be the case do you forbid access to last boss until it dies on tournament realm?
Possible solution to that is heroic week lasts 2 weeks and the second week is Tournament RWF that lasts a week. Although after it ends regular mythic launches putting competing players at a disadvantage because the could be split farming heroic instead to play an actual RWF.
Imagine Liquid wins Tournament RWF while Echo wins Regular RWF with no competition in either realms.
Best case scenario, people play Tournament RWF for fun, learn strategies there, complete it in 2-3 days and then go to normal game and play like they always have, but with strategies already there and experience necessary to oneshot the bosses, the only hurdle is farming gear.
Tournament realm = test realm with extra steps.
I'm dumb though, so maybe someone much smarter can cook up real way to implement Tournament RWF that works as people think it would work.
They still didn't though, they can't make US and EU raid release at the same time to eliminate 16 hour gap despite how long people ask for that to happen.
Except rwf is a community event. Would anyone "accept" a world first mythic kill on tournament realm as world first? Probably not. It needs to be live to have any legitimacy.
@@_d0serthey talked about it you have two rwf than.
On reall and on live. Would not change anything
I think the Asian guilds will start taking over.
i think the race is a joke at this point, its not just a team of players pushing themselves to become the best anymore
might aswell watch any other corporate professional sport where finances and ability to poach the best players becomes the deciding factor
I heard this happened because he’s going to pursue OnlyFans due to his beanstalk incident !
The only reason they left is because they can't compete without the money. And that is true for every other team. Coming up with any other secondary reason is just an excuse to not talk about the elephant in the room.
Race to world first could be an awesome event for actual guilds... but it never is. These two guilds sucked up all the oxygen and blizzard enabled it. Its all about time and resources. If blizzard would stop resetting gear every single patch other guilds could compete. But the amount of degen gear grinding that goes on before every raid is an impossible hurdle for any normal guild to get over. RWF is boring as hell. Either the guys that won last time win, or the guys that won the time before that win.
Professional guilds have ruined raiding for us casual dads. lol
“Echo turbo farmed pieces”- The lie detector determined that is objectively not true, at least according to the chart the editor showed.
Neasan best ele shamy ever..... I Hope you guys can fix it
I mean yeah there's literally no point to doing this if you're an adult player and not on the Echo/Liquid roster. The teams can't pay you a living wage, working a fulltime job + RTWF means blowing all your sick/PTO which would feel fucking awful even if it were enough time, like it just doesn't work without money in the scene. And there isn't.
You've got a scene that has 1 foot in esports like echo/liquid and one foot in just "people playing vidya" and honestly it has ruined the entire thing.
The only people who can attempt this are NEETs, college students (who are probably fucking themselves by doing this) or people with a money source from somewhere else like a working spouse/parent/inheritence.
I'd also argue it's even hard for echo/liquid to hold onto people who aren't making a foothold in streaming bc there's no financial security in it.
RTWF honestly has caused more problems than anything for WoW balance, guild ecosystem, and competitiveness.
Your guild and that EU guild literally dedicate 40+ people's lives to the game. no one else is coming close to this and people are realizing to just play for fun unless they're giving up freedom.
Race to doom
They need to stop with Mythic raiding and sorry stop the race to world first.
MMO as esports KEKW
rwf is just echo vs liquid.
can't we just agree that Liquid is probably gonna disband soon by how many WF they keep losing lmao. I mean that's his logic lol
GG are dead as well, sad times :(
I think from reading alot of comments here that people think that the world first race is rigged and out of reach for most guilds. But what is failed to mention is the fact that echo and liquid have through years of dedication, hard work and building on eachother set a really high bar for others to compete on.. Yeah, it's a high bar to reach, and the scenery and setting around sponsor and viewership is really tough to break into. But for the right competetiveness in mindset for people who would wanna give it a serious go, I think there is always possibility for upsets, and who knows Blizzard might even change the format with a new expansion. What I mean by this is thanks alot to echo and liquid for all the hard work and commitment they did over the years to put the bar so high, and let's hope for more guilds to be able to come in and compete with them.
Mythic raiding is just too tiresome this season. Literally zero motivation to do this.
I like the RWF but I prefer the Destiny raid race where everybody can participate, i know it's way different tho.
You have talked alot about how splits suck. How does the community feel about them? Signing up and helping your fav streamer gearing up is a really cool feature only available in this esport.
That "feature" is one of the main reasons why there's literally only a tiny handful of guilds even trying to compete in the race.
this hasn't been a competition since legion. get off it. you guys spend so much money and time to compete its not even close to fair for other guilds. i just wish blizzard would stop designing the raid around you two teams and leaving the rest of the raiding community to deal with the aftermath for the next six months. the only solution i see is just making you guys your own raid on a tournament realm and designing a less ridiculous raid for the rest of the community.
Uh…what? Are you ok bud? Nobody is fighting the same bosses these guys fight. They are nerfed to be half as difficult if not more by the time your guild gets to it.
If a guild decides they want to raid crazy hours to reach those bosses while they are still RWF level that’s on them. Nobody is forcing that on them.
@@Cornincarnatethat's what he's saying. They make a raid that they know only 2 raid team have a reasonable chance at clearing. He's correct they should have a raid that is literally made on a different server that has nothing to do with the current wow while also having the raid that is in the game go live at the same time so they have to play what was made for them and the rest of people who wanna play the game and feel competitive don't have to compete with their money.
What? I feel my brain cells decaying reading this. The race for all intents and purposes might as well be on a different server as it is already. By the time your guild gets to the bosses they are made for your level of play, not theirs. If you think Echo and Liquid just...wouldn't hop on to demolish everyone in an hour if they only release baby raids on retail idk what to tell you. You're just wrong. If you're trying to stick up for the other 8 top 10 guilds they raid those hours because they WANT to face the bosses while they are still extremely difficult. They don't want to prog mega nerfed fights. Anybody else is never fighting them anyway so it's irrelevant.@@trentongardner2106
For real there can’t be that much money in world first raiding. Bet there would be far more money working 40hrs at Target.
Do you know how much money has been spent and earned in the recent RWF? Yeah, you shouldnt talk if you dont know the facts.
So many comments about Liquid and Echo being so dominant that others cant compete like its anything new. Nihilum, Paragon, Ensidia, Method etc in their time was exactly the same. There are just too few players that can play on the abaolute highest level.
Except raiding was an order of magnitude easier back in the days of guilds like Nihilum & Ensidia. Echo only "replaced" Method due to a drama explosion causing most of the players to jump ship.
If blizz wants to save the game they have to kill rwf. I love watching it but bosses are tuned for like 200 ppl out of a few million. And even them have to wait for patching.
Splits need to be banned by blizzard. If a team runs a split blizzard should shut down the raid for them immediately for the week. Its cringe and ruins the competitive gameplay. They also need to ban gold being spent on BoEs and players helping out. PERIOD>
tbh its boring these days anyway, literally the same two guilds n even new Method is boring cause Method name got wore out, RWF was to me the most entertaining at the end of BFA now its just there n the MDI lul no need to speak on it its literally just ECho