Elia Martell Is Way More Than Just A Prop In Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark's Story
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
- Elia Martell is one of many ghosts that haunt the contemporary storyline of A Song of Ice and Fire. While her impact on House Martell is undeniable, many book fans reduce her to little more than a prop in the love story of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. But who was the real Elia Martell?
00:00 Who Everyone Thinks Elia Is
02:18 The Politics Of Elia Martell
08:44 Who Was Elia Martell, Really?
11:07 Why Do People See Elia The Way They Do?
14:24 Conclusion
15:37 Outro - Zábava
I think Rhaegar's treatment of Elia is a clue to the potential abusive nature, or at least unequal dynamic, of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. It's a huge shadow of the supposed fairytale romance that fans like to pretend R/L was. Rhaegar nearly killed Elia to get those kids, then he humiliated her, and then abandoned her and his children to die, all for the sake of his dragon dreams.
Also Rhaegar abandoned Lyanna in the Tower of Joy?
@@rainluna9765Rhaegar all around just kinda sounds like a piece of work
Oberyn fucked a 16 year old, Bobby B impregnated a 14 year old, Renly fucked Loras, a kid. Cersei fucked Lancel, a kid. Jon Arryn married a teenager. GRRM ships Sansa and the Hound
Asoiaf fandom: "We can't judge them by modern standards. It's normal in Westeros."
Rhaegar had a relationship with Lyanna
Asoiaf fandom: "Pedo! Spawn of Satan!"
A summary of asoiaf fandom.
I know right. Martin flips typical tropes on their head but people are playing R+L straight
@@redjirachi1Probably because that was how they were depicted in the show, and fans who knew that D&D were aware of Jon's parentage just assumed that the way things played out was the way GRRM intended.
Always felt sorry for Elia. What the Mountain did to her was unspeakable.
The Mountain was probably acting on Lady Cersei Lannister's (and not necessarily on Tywin's) orders -- see my comment above for part of the explanation..
@@markgross6006 I very much doubt that the Mountain was acting on Cersei's orders
@@markgross6006 Don’t think she would have the power to influence him back then.
@@joshuaadams6565 I think she would have - remember that the Cleganes were vassals of House Lannister, and that the Clegane bros’ father was raised up to noble status by the Lannisters. This would also explain why Tywin would have technically been correct when he told Oberyn that he didn’t order Elia’s death during the Sack of Kings Landing at the close of Robert’s Rebellion. What the Mountain did to Elia was definitely in line with how Cersei deals with her enemies.
@@markgross6006it was definitely Tywin that ordered it. He was angry and jealous that his daughter couldn’t marry the crown prince.
I will never stop saying that Elia was too good for Rhaegar! She deserved better!
Elian's son in the books live.
@@marshacollier9516 Nonsense. Aegon is a Blackfyre. Only a fool would think otherwise. THE GOLDEN COMPANY. Think.
Personally, I see Ellia as the victim of Targaryen’s seeing themselves as above the system. Her opinion on Rhaegar feels left out from the story to highlight how even the most powerful women in the seven kingdoms still gets completely cucked by the system she lives in even if she wanted to fight back. Her opinion doesn’t matter because the culture says the male head of the family has supremacy and dictates the trajectory of the family.
I see Ellia having no influence, no insights, only the understanding that her husband has drives that could (and would) kill her whole family. She’s probably a person who understands how violent men can get with the story of her brother poisoning a lord and being exiled across the world.
And of course she was a victim of racism. She was a brown woman trying to navigate a very white royal court full of nobles who hated Dornish people.
@@Emma88178 George doesn't really write much racism into asoiaf, it's all xenophobia as the Westerosi hate any Dornishmen. Including the Danes, which have light skin like a Targaryen.
But you are correct, there is a ton of prejudice against what she looks like as well.
@alexia, GRRM has literally said that the people of Dorne are ethnically based off the people of North Africa and Palestine. You know, people are who not white. As in brown and black people. Thats who the Dornish are. And that includes the Daynes and Yronwoods, etc. They are still people of color as well despite being white passing. Not to mention every single stereotype against the Dornish by the rest of the people of Westeros are based off of real life racist stereotypes. He very much does write about race and racism in ASOIAF.
@@Emma88178I disagree with that. Lots of Palestinians are white. In part because many of them are related to Turks from the Ottoman Empire, a very mixed race group.
She most certainly was furious with Raeghar. He dishonored her and their family over some prophetic delusions. I imagine she remained at his side because of duty, but overall mad at his betrayal. What fans need to remember is that, even if she was okay with him bedding other women, in no way she should've been okay with him marriyng another highborn lady and putting Ellia and her children on danger by debilitating their social status. It seems that most fans forget about Westerosi social rules when they make their favorite character look like a bad person.
I dunno… there is a scene in the books where Danny had visions and Raeghar is speaking with his wife on needing a third heir and she agrees… but she also knows she cannot have another. Seems very likely she might have agreed to this… even more so when the show adds in the fact the marriage got annulled… also there is the fact that Lyanna gave birth to Jon where Ellia is from… and in Dorn, bastards are never looked down on… there are just so many holes in the story because it is not finished.
i doubt that. you forget she was dornish
no evidence she was furious with rhaegar, its literally just as much specilation as saying she wanted Rhaegar to do it
Uh no she was dornish
Sometimes I ask: Are the Rhaegar/Lyanna shippers this level of dumb and delusional? Their beloved pairing is like a porcelain doll or a house of cards; when someone uses logic and facts to contest them, they easily break because their foundations are so brittle.
Also the INSULT of if Rhaegar got his marriage to Elia annulled in the books like in the show. What would that mean for Aegon and Rhaenys? Would they still be legitimate or, as it seems likely, would that have now rendered them bastards? Even if Robert’s Rebellion never happened and everything didn’t implode like it did, it would certainly implode with the position of extreme danger that Rhaegar just put his two eldest children in by making their claims up for debate, and almost certainly sparking yet another succession crisis.
Whichever way you cut it, it leaves you with no favourable way to look at Rhaegar, with at worst as a man who didn’t care at all about his children’s safety and willing to plunge the continent into war twice over so long as it brought forth his outlandish and obsessive interpretation of a prophecy.
Yeah, I think the annulment was a show creation just because I cannot imagine a world in which Rhaegar doesn't want to have his three superheroes bear the name Targaryen, but that was a nutty plot twist and if it happens in the books then Rhaegar is even trashier trash than I thought.
@@HillsAliveYT So do you think he married Lyanna polygamous or that he would have legitimatize Jon Snow?
@@HillsAliveYT A King can set aside his wife, once Rhaegar became King, he could have set aside Elia Martell and kept Rhaeneys Targaryen and Aegon Targaryen in the line of succession and in Kings Landing
@@HillsAliveYT But what if Rhaegar wanted to "start over" with Lyanna though? Sire three completely new kids with her to be the actual three heads of the dragon. That's why he named his first child with her Aegon again instead of naming him after Visenya (e. g. Viserys, Viseryon, etc.).
@@tarvoc746 only problem is he named his son aegon(the one with elia) prince that was promised in one of the flashbacks in the books which btw happened tourney of harrenhall and his absconding with lyanna(aegon wasn't even born until after tourney of harrenhall) when elia asked him if he would write a song for his son and heir. then there is the fact he specifically wanted a girl to fill his version of three head of the dragon prophecy and knew elia couldn't give him anymore children(maesters specifically told him that after aegon's birth). there is also the fact he was long dead before jon was even born so him knowing the sex of his child is highly unlikely(we know this because between his death and ned going to tower of joy, he went to kings landing saw what happened there, had a fallout with robert, left to relieve storm's end and free stannis and then give him robert's order of building a fleet to go after rhaella and viserys, searched for where lyanna was kept and made it to tower of joy which is nowhere near stormsland despite them being neighbouring regions and still somehow made it before lyanna died)
Lovely Video. Very good to finally hear someone go "Hey, maybe the woman who values herself doesnt want her husband banging a child because he can?"
Yeah a lot of people lose track of the whole A CHILD thing, which I think alters their judgment about Rhaegar x Lyanna.
They also treat it like "Sexual Liberation" Makes someone oblivious to a double standard. Arguably Elia would be MORE angry at Rhaegar taking a lover. As it is FINE for him to do, yet not her, yet she is still expected to give him legitimate heirs yet when she cannot anymore, it is not acceptable for her to even take a lover, or admit that she has any feelings regarding that whatsoever. Being that she is from a culture where they are more egalitarian she'd definitely be less oblivious to that obvious double standard, yet everyone treats it otherwise. Rhaegar ran off with a 16 year old, which led to his innocent wife and kids dying horribly, yet its...fine?
Honestly, this kind of make me want Young Griff to not just be Aegon, but to be one of the keys to defeating the Night King even more. Just the irony of how pursuing prophecy to create a new child might have almost gotten the actual "chosen one" killed.
I mean, lets hope Rhaegor wasn't right because he thought the dragon needed three heads and his actions towards that got one or two of those heads killed.
And why did the three heads have to be siblings anyway? Couldn't they just be three dragon seeds living at the same time? So Jon, Griff and Gendry?
@@devorahacts dany
@susmitabasu1549 Dany would be expected but I don't know why she would have to be one. Again Gendry is a Targaryen even if he's only like a quarter at most. Technically, if the Blackfyres continued to intermarry between each other a lot of them would have enough.
Definitely agree that Ellia being seen as a "3rd wheel" by most fans when discussing Rhaegar and Lyanna, I'm like... bro, she was his WIFE, and already mother of his 2 kids, one of which of course was his heir.
It's also crazy how so many people justify Rhaegar's action is... interesting.
I agree that the Dornish argument isn't foolproof. Just cause you're born in Dorne, doesn't mean you necessarily agree or partake in the polygamous system they have down there.
I mean, for all we know, maybe Ellia didn't approve of the situation. If she did, alright fine, but that means she may have known that Lyanna was the one he had eyes for, which means that (just as you said) she didn't try to stop the situation. And that wouldn't make sense if she cared at all about the safety of her kids with him. Whether politically or physically...
Overall, its a shame as to what happened in the end
Yeah it's very weird, like it's relatively rare for people to be naturally polyamorous or to desire polygamy, so the fact that Elia was from a place that is less sexually shameful does not translate to her being okay with or actually wanting to be in a polygamous marriage. Plus there is a world of difference between being okay with/wanting an open relationship versus wanting to create an absolute clusterfuck of a political situation for no good reason.
I think Elia would’ve been fine with Lyanna being his paramour and their son being a child he loved and doted on. I think that as soon as they married (if they did in the books) she would’ve been furious because all that does is put her and her children in a precarious situation that could be entirely avoided. Yes, Lyanna would be ‘ruined’ but I’m sure he would NEVER have let her live in destitution. She would’ve lived luxuriously but out of the publics eye. 🤷🏻♀️
In the sense of the Starks being angry that Lyanna’s son would inherit nothing… he could’ve titled Jon after he became of age… without legitimizing him. Could’ve awarded him a keep and everything. Rhaegar WAS going to be king after all. Idk how Jon would be as a person if he was raised by his actual parents but I feel like he still wouldn’t feel entitled to the throne. There are so many ways everyone could’ve been content without an all out war.
@@colestack Elia would never agree to Rhaegar recreating the Dance of the Dragons or the Blackfyre Rebellion.
@@jorgebersabe293you dont know that, alot of evidence suggests she very well could have.
@@JeffPenaify Which evidence? The one you read on a Rhaegar/Lyanna fanfic or the one you read or a trashy headcanon you took as gospel truth?
if we want to see what would have happened had they all survived, we just need to analyse Cat's relationship with Jon: she doesn't hate the boy, she hates how Ned's most Stark looking male child can threaten Robb's, Bran's or Rickon's right to succeed Ned as the Warden of the North.
another misconception related to the Martells is that Arianne will marry (f)Aegon, but this begs the question: why would the future Princess of Dorne give up her rulership to be a Queen consort?
the best thing about Dorne is that it flips the Westerosi traditions so massively that it bugs some fans.
Yeah I agree, ESPECIALLY given that Elia's death is like a gaping trauma wound for all of House Martell and she largely died specifically because she became queen consort to a Targaryen. I can't imagine anyone in the family sincerely wanting her to marry Aegon.
@@HillsAliveYT But wasn't Arianne betrothed to Viserys?
@@HillsAliveYTyeah but arianne pov implies she thinks she won’t rule dorne her brother will
Arianne won’t marry Aegon, but he’s definitely not fake.
@@HillsAliveYTI think Arianna might try to wed Aegon due ti the one sided sibling rivalry she has with Quentin once she found out about Quentins mission to marry Dany she clearly felt some type of way about the prospect of kneeling to him when he becomes king consort
Although I don't know if it's going to work out for her since Aegon's whole reason for coming west was that he wanted to prove to Dany he was a worthy to be her consort
I highly doubt that Elia would’ve have been okay with Rhaegar essentially ditching her. I’d imagine that in Dornish culture, women are not taught to be mindlessly submissive to their husbands, and that they have equal value to men, and that includes suffering slights to their honor. Personally, the idea that Elia would be completely okay with being abandoned just seems laughable to me and more of an excuse for Rhaegar indirectly getting his family killed by the Lannisters, and the near collapse of the Targaryen dynasty. Even if Elia had a more demure nature, I’d like to think that she was enraged at Rhaegar and didn’t appreciate being disrespected regardless of the Rhaegar’s prophecy. I wish I could’ve learned what Elia’s thought were during her marriage with the Targaryens.
And not for nothing but even if he wanted to suddenly ditch her, he could still send her HOME instead of leaving her in the hands of his unhinged family and taking off to Dorne HIMSELF with Lyanna.
@@HillsAliveYTat the time Rhaegar made the journey, Kings Landing was safe, he didnt factor in getting his ass handed to him at the Trident, so really he left Elia and his other children safe and sound, and likely assumed they would be shipped to dragonstone in event of emergency. Kings Landing was the safest place for Elia when Rhaegar left her there, and Elia was too sickly to do much travelling anyways.
@@JeffPenaifythe key word is assume here. The noble Rhaegar seems to assume a lot of things. He tells Jaime that he would take care of his mad father, the king AFTER he had won the battle of trident. It seems like Rhaegar never even envisioned a situation where he could potentially lose- he seems too sure of his victory. Makes him sound very much entitled and snobbish. Confidence and arrogance are too different things. The prince is counting his eggs even before they hatch. Also Rhaegar himself had a stormy relationship with his father so it doesn't make sense that he would think his wife and children would be safe with his mad king of a father around? He abandons his wife and children in the red keep and instead stays with his mistress for months in toj before his father had sent a kingsguard to bring him. Houses were calling their bannermen to war, armies were marching, mutiny was all over westerosi and yet the prince joined the battle only in the last moment i.e the battle of trident. What was he doing before that ?
@@meimei12350 yes Rhaegar is a Targaryen who believes hes fathering the Prince that Was Promised, who he presumed was his first son (he was convinced Lyanna would bear him a daughter). Hes as arrogant as Dany or practically any other Targaryen ruler. He was with Lyanna in TOJ presumably to safeguard the birthing of his 3rd child, war broke out because Aerys was a loose cannon, Rhaegar likely didnt realize how far his dad would take it, as most people dont concerning family members, Elia and her children were safe at Kings Landing while Rhaegar was alive, he fully expected to stop Roberts Rebellion at the Trident the same way Robert fully expected to smash them all on the Trident.
@@meimei12350 yes Rhaegar is a Targaryen who believes hes fathering the Prince that Was Promised, who he presumed was his first son (he was convinced Lyanna would bear him a daughter). Hes as arrogant as Dany or practically any other Targaryen ruler. He was with Lyanna in TOJ presumably to safeguard the birthing of his 3rd child, war broke out because Aerys was a loose cannon, Rhaegar likely didnt realize how far his dad would take it, as most people dont concerning family members, Elia and her children were safe at Kings Landing while Rhaegar was alive, he fully expected to stop Roberts Rebellion at the Trident the same way Robert fully expected to smash them all on the Trident.
I think Rhaegar is one of the best written characters ever, the first thing that we learn from him is that he raped a teen, the second is that he knighted the same psycho who brutally murdered his family, yet people get the feeling that this guy was a heroic deep thinking gentle soul. Hell, maybe he conceived with a teenager an Apocalyptic Ice Demon General.
If Lord Snow ever gets his humanity back and learns his true origin, I just hope he gets the chance to reflect what a shthead his father was and that he has to do better.
Idk how I never knew that Rhaegar was the one who knited the mountain. That's freakish
No Jaime
@@sd5371 yeah true enough, just after Arya he's my favorite character, he starts as an apparent Golden Knight, then a big turd, and then maybe, just maybe, he can be a hero after all. But all this is very upfront and doesnt involve George being all sneaky and clever, still, one thing does not take the other.
I totally agree, I always felt uncomfortable with the main fan based theory that Elia was okay about Rhaegar humiliating her in public. The closest we get to her as a person comes from her brother Oberyn who described her in his comments. When he talked about Baelor Breakspear, it made Elia out to be a fun person.
We do learn a LITTLE bit about her from Barristan who described her as (a nearly direct quote form the books) "Elia was a kind and clever woman, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit" which is a very lovely description and I'm kind of surprised wasn't mentioned here. Another idea I'm surprised wasn't brought up either was the fact that Elia would most certainly be against Rhaegar abandoning her and her children because she would have remembered the Blackfyre rebellions. The fifth and final blackfyre war happened in her own lifetime when she was just a little girl. And the basis for how it started was because the people of Westeros were annoyed and angry at King Daeron II for marrying a Dornish woman and bringing so many Dornish people to court that many of them turned against Daeron in favor of his bastard half-brother Daemon Blackfyre. A conflict that lasted nearly 100 years and five different wars. Rhaegar running off and having a kid with Lyanna would have made Elia think of the Blackfyres and she would have been terrified that the racist Westerosi nobles would prefer white Jon Snow over her own biracial children and start another series of wars that caused the death of thousands. And she would be right to be angry at Rhaegar.
Yes thank you for putting a spotlight on Elia, and a lot of the fandom's weird dismissal of her!!! I've seen some truly hilariously absurd and somewhat despicable justifications for why she was totally cool with everything she went through, all to make Jon Snow's conception, birth and theorized eventually kingship morally unambiguous, completely ignoring the themes and plot of the story. It sucks and its nice to see this narrative get some pushback. great video! ♥
I keep reading fanfics where she encourages Jon(almost always with Sansa) to take the throne from Aegon and it’s like… no? That would never happen?
@@misskate3815 really? I've seen the opposite lol. it's always jonxdany fic where jon takes the iron throne bcs aegon is "incapable" somehow
oh you won't believe how many fics I've read where aegon is described as this somehow joffrey incarnated to make jon look good and justified in usurping hin
Elia being open to Rhaegar seeking out another mistress for his 3rd child, even being the one who made the suggestion, is a very valid theory that has quite a bit to support it
@@JeffPenaify Just admit you hate Elia because she gets in the way of your useless ship pairing and we finish much earlier.
This was so good, I was 16/17 when I first read the books and yeah, I totally saw R+L as a tragic fairytale romance but now in my 20's I'm like "wait a second, this is actually really creepy" and the more I think about the way Elia and Lyanna were treated by Rhaegar the more disgusted I am, both deserved so much better and I wish we could learn more about them as individuals outside of their relationship with him.
I'm really enjoying your analysis of the books :)
LOL yes facts, a lot of people read it as passionate love but I'm like WTF you wouldn't catch me dead at the age of 20+ developing a crush on a freaking 14-15 year old.
Fantastic analysis! Elia, even more than Lyanna Stark, is almost always used or referred to in conjunction with Rhaegar Targaryen or her death at the hand of the Mountain. People never seem to focus on her past or what sort of character she was.
I'm really love your takes on ASOIAF. I see a lot of youtubers who do deep dives into this stuff, and they all seem to come to the consensus that Rhaegar and Lyanna were beautifully in love, and Ellia was just okay with it which has never sat right with me. I understand why it's so widely accepted, but it just really nice to have a youtuber who talks about how Rhaegar and Lyanna's love story is a little creepy, and makes no sense because Lyanna's family were literally dying because of him. So anyway I just wanna say I really like your content, and it's nice to hear this stuff from at least one youtuber.
Thank you 💜 I don't get how people draw these conclusions either because it's a complete non-starter for me. Lyanna was like 16-17 at best when this all happened, so at best she had a crush on Rhaegar, because that's what teenage girls have. That is the most generous interpretation of their relationship in my eyes, so I will never jive with their "romance" at all.
@@HillsAliveYThe was opportunistic she was young and easily led she had the face of Arya but the navity of Sansa and self righteousness of Dany
And it makes no sense why Elia would be “okay” with her husband putting herself and her children in danger.
@@HillsAliveYT Lyanna was a sheltered teenager from a far away place and whose sense of consequences started and ended with her father's wrath. Saying that she would be still in love with Rhaegar after everything that transpired is like saying Sansa would stay in love with Joffrey after he had Ned executed.
Lyanna wanted freedom, the possibility of living her own life without being a political pawn or a baby making machine and instead her life ended exactly what she wanted to avoid: Being Rhaegar's pawn and baby making machine.
@@Emma88178it wouldnt really put herself or her children in danger, Aegon would still be successor to the throne, itd be no different than the Sand Snakes. We have way too many examples to write it off, Elias Dornish where paramours and children from them are completely normal, Dorne and Targaryens had polygamous cultures, Elia could have been the one to suggest Rhaegar find a paramour it is a valid fan theory
The part of Rhaegar’s slight to Elia that REALLY freaking heats me is that… Elia was very likely pregnant at Harrenhal. It was in the second half of 281 … and Aegon was born either near the end of 281 or beginning of 282 according to the timelines we’re given. (Since he died at 14 months in 283) So she was likely somewhere in the middle of her pregnancy. SO THEY WOULD HAVE KNOWN. This man is atrocious. Idc if Lyanna was tKotLT or not. Honor your pregnant wife and give Lyanna a bag of gold dragons or somethin. Sheesh.
This also debunks the whole ‘he was looking for a mother for his third child.’ since they wouldn’t have known that Elia wouldn’t be able to carry a third at that time.
Thank you. I always thought that because Elia was liberated doesn't mean that she'd be down for putting her kids' future at stake and giving up all sense of self-motivation in favor of fulfilling Rhaegar's wants and desires and being for lack of a better term, an easy lifeless lump to step over. I always took it to mean that if anything, her being liberated meant she had HIGHER expectations to be disappointed by Rhaegar, not lower ones, and the feeling that she should do something in response. If anything I could imagine that the paramour culture of Dorne might have some unspoken rules and expectations (like not taking a legitimate high-born daughter as paramour for one).
I also have a feeling that Ashara got sent somewhere by Elia, and that part of the reason everyone has rumors of Ashara and Ned having a love affair outside of one dance at Harrenhal is because (and this is just speculation) Elia likely sent Ashara to treat with Robert Baratheon through Ned--hoping that Ashara using her "hold" on Ned could convince him to convince Robert to spare her children's lives if not preserve their inheritance (i.e. declare for my children, and create a Regency Council until my son comes of age).
It would give Elia something to do (political scheming and machinations) so she's not just going "oh woe is me" as she's being by all accounts held hostage by Aerys, and it would be another reason why people in the South think Ned and Ashara hooked up at some point beyond just one dance at Harrenhal. Speculation, but it makes some sense.
i'm so sick with the way fandom treat elia and her children, as well as the dornish in general. thank you so much for this video❤
I would love to heard what Eila was thinking about when Rhaegar embarrassed her, left her after she gave birth to his son just to have jon because no woman in Westeros would have been okay with it. Ps: George please I really want to heard her thoughts.
I mean I know if it was me I'd be thinking "this man better not get within arm's reach of me ever again if he wants to live."
@@HillsAliveYT They have a son after that fact and they were still friendly to each other in Dany's vision. You are projecting.
@@katherinemayers6733 You might have got the times confused.
@@katherinemayers6733 dany's vision was when she gave birth.
@@HillsAliveYT probably not the smartest thought given who his father was.
If there is ever a show about Robert's Rebellion, I want them to absolutely destroy "Game of Thrones" idea about Rhaegar. Depict him as having a Melisandre-level obsession with prophecy. Establish that there was no romance between him and Lyanna, he just saw what he was doing as necessary to save the world. He should be charming and sweet, but ultimately as mad as his Father. When he finally fights Robert, the audience shouldn't know whether to feel bad for him, or cheer raucously as Robert smashes his chest in.
As a second point, Lyanna should be cast as visibly younger than Rhaegar. The relationship should look creepy, and bother the audience. Yet, in his own twisted way, he will do what he can to make Lyanna comfortable. He carries out a marriage between himself and her (with a press-ganged septon), so her children won't be bastards. He makes the Tower of Joy incredibly comfortable, but won't let her leave until after the war.
As far as I am concerned, book Rhaegar already had this, but just another thing that the show bungled. Daenerys’s vision of Rhaegar saying he needed his third dragon head is all you really need to be able to, along with his descriptions of being nose stuck in scrolls and prophecies, peg him as being a complete prophecy-obsessed guy.
He died saying Lyanna name lol
Sorry dude.
@@katherinemayers6733there’s no proof of that and given how he died(chest caved in) I doubt he said anything more than a vague whistling noise.
Sorry dude.
@@misskate3815Lip reading is still a thing. He was probably trying to say her name, even of no words actually came out of his mouth.
@@elizabethkelley2559 no one is stopping in the middle of a fight to the death to read some loser lizard-prince’s lips. It’s a romantic legend to lend a veneer of romance to a creepy pedo rapist.
Justice for Elia Martell. There is no great fate or grand cosmic plan that justifies what happened to her or her children. Rhaegar is the glorified fuck boy of Westeros and If Lyanna was complicit in the act, then she deserved some smoke. It doesn’t matter if their union produced the Prince That Was Promised or not. Their “great love story” threw the realm in chaos and cause the death and destruction of so many people, particularly the cruel butchery of Elia and her children. I would love a short story on Elia, just get some needed insight into her character. She seems like sweet and incredible lady, with a lot more depth than she’s given credit for. My personal headcanon is that Ser Arthur Dayne was keeping her company, if you know what I mean 😏😏
I don't generally aim smoke Lyanna's way because A. she was a teenager and B. I don't think it makes any sense to believe that she would willingly run away from one cheater to hook up with another cheater, but Rhaegar gets all the shade for his self-important shittery that couldn't even be quelled by a literal civil war.
@@HillsAliveYT Oh I totally agree, no matter how you slice it. Lyanna and Rhaegar relationship is just nasty four ways. But I have been having this thing lately about holding women accountable and I see too many folks give Lady Lyanna a pass for being “sweet naive girl who couldn’t help but have a crush and fall for the rockstar of Westeros.” And just doesn’t seat right with me personally. But totally understand your position. If what you say about them to be true, I agree with you fully. Also give Rhaegar all the smoke and heat, he deserves it ten fold.
@@HillsAliveYT But I don't see Rhaegar as a rapist. No matter how you slice it, Lyanna despised Robert Baratheon for being a skirt chaser. But she still had a child with a married man and father.
Huh your self insert story doesnt make sense because arthur dayne was protecting Lyanna.
@@javierlopez9789 Another bitter shipper who has a hate boner for Elia. What a pity.
Dude i love this video, finally someone said it, idk why everyone is such a Rhaegar fanboy all of a sudden, the dude was clearly sketchy in his own way, and people forget that George loves writing assholes
For real, if Rhaegar has a million haters, I'm one of them. If Rhaegar has one hater, it's me. If Rhaegar has no haters, I'm dead.
@@HillsAliveYTLOL
@@HillsAliveYT What is Dead May Never DIe
@@cyberpunkalphamale What do we say to Death? Not today!
@@HillsAliveYTwhat’s your opinion on rhaegar still alive theory I for one think he’s greater trash for letting Dany and viserys wonder around
This theory that Elia was somehow okay with all Rhaegar’s shenanigans is beyond baffling, she most likely had no other choice but to look away. If the theory that says she was okay for Rhaegar leaving her for another woman just to have a trueborn child, than maybe she would also be okay with having a third child and dying? To me, Elia was a victim on all sides(at least in the beginning, their marriage was kind of okay? It’s stated that Rhaegar was fond of Elia, so that’s something), poor woman never took a break. I wish princess Rhaenys had lived as well(If Aegon is who he says he is, of course), so her legacy would be a little better.
Not really baffling, its valid theory. Rhaegar likely didnt want to kill her for his 3rd child and it very well could have been Elia who suggested he find a mistress, after all its pretty normal in Dornish culture.
@@JeffPenaify.....and that theory can be easily wrecked by logic and actual reading comprehension. Two concepts that you have shown to utterly lack.
-George actually describes her reaction to Rhaegar crowning Lyanna during the tournament of Harrenhal as "stiff-backed." Which is, her trying to keep composure during the humilliation she had to endure.
-The last Blackfyre Rebellion, where Ser Barristan slayed Maelys the Monstruous, ended on Elia's lifetime. Said Blackfyre Rebellions started because Daemon Blackfyre, a bastard thought himself above everybody else by virtue of lineage, directly threatening Daeron II's children's lives and position and because part of the Westerosi didn't like the Dornish.
Elia would never agree to this foolishness, because doing so would be inciting another Blackfyre Rebellion.
Dude, you are so desperate to portray Rhaegar as Aemon the Dragonknight, when in reality he is Aegon the Unworthy. (in fact, Rhaegar's treatment of Elia disturbingly resembles how Aegon IV treated Naerys. And both Elia and Rhaegar descend from them).
@@jorgebersabe293 just because she felt some type of way about it, does not mean she didnt consent to it and want that for Rhaegar, plus we only get third party POV of Elia who by all accounts made very little outward display of emotion, much of it which is attributed to her in 3rd person, George writes these kind of misdirects often
Blackfyre rebellion happened because Aegon legitimized Daemon on his deathbed and gifted him Valyrian sword Blackfyre which up to then had been passed down from Targaryen kings and was symbolic of Targaryen rule no different than the crown and the Iron Throne. Ignoring that is ignoring the core of the conflict, as Aegon 4 all but named Daemon his successor through that. Bastard 3rd child would in no way disrupt Aegon 5 lineage on its own and to argue otherwise is to fundamentally misunderstand the laws of westeros, like its laughably poor
What we do know is Elia comes from a culture where polygamy/polyamory and the bastards that are produced is completely normalized, we have some evidence that links to Rhaegar confiding in his wife about his Dragon dreams, and prince that was promised prophecy, and Rhaegar took Lyanna to Dorne of all places, near house Dayne, with Arthur and Ashara seemingly complicit, Ashara who was close friends with Elia and her lady in waiting, Arthur who was proud Dornishman and honorable.
Until proven otherwise, Elia being complicit/involved in Rhaegar and Lyanna hiding away is as valid as the reverse, we have no POV of Elia and George has hammered home how different Dornish culture is from westerosi when it comes to that. We do know Elia cared about Rhaegar, we can infer Elia was aware of Rhaegars dragon dreams and his need to fulfill prophecy as he saw it, and we know Elia was unfit to carry more children. Could it have been begrudging acceptance? sure, but the theory that Elia gave Rhaegar her blessing to find a mate for 3rd child, possibly even putting the idea in his head, is valid until proven otherwise.
@@JeffPenaify LOL. Its pretty much obvious at this point you have such a hate boner for Elia because her image destroys the misconception of Rhaegar being this great hero who could do no wrong.
So do you think GRRM knew how a lot of the fandom would react to Jon Snow's story? That there would be a lot of tunnel vision among readers of Jon Snow = Aragorn, he's gonna save the day Azor Ahai-style and be the perfect king, and every action leading to his birth was good and noble and unambiguously morally right, therefore the discarded wife must've been totally cool with it all. That from the start, GRRM anticipated this response from a lot of the fans and is planning to completely pull the rug out from under that point of view, maybe make Elia and her choices and legacy matter much more than Rhaegar's did in some way?
Yeah this is what I lean towards, especially since I think that fAegon isn't a fake at all and his character background and theming is like 95% Elia/Martell-related.
Sometimes I wonder if GRRM created the Blackfyres in response to the fan backlash to Catelyn. Blackfyres aren't mentioned at all until ASoS (though some sort of parentage dispute for Daeron II is alluded to in the AGoT appendix)... so was GRRM reading fan mail about how Catelyn was the worst person ever because she was mean to Jon, and was like "ok, I guess I have to spell it out for you guys. Gonna make the past century of Westerosi history be dominated by generations of civil wars caused by a king favoring his illegitimate son."
@@Mj_Jetson LOL that's an interesting theory and I love the idea that he introduced a whole basket of lore just to defend Cat.
Of course, all of this is assuming that we'll ever even get Winds of Winter, let alone Dream of Spring (since I don't think this will be fully addressed even in Winds of Winter).
Its funny because everything Jon was suppose to do, Danny end up doing. The irony here is insane. Elia got caught up in her husband complete and utter BS. No way would he be allowed to rule in peace. After all the noble houses he and Lyanna fucked up. People ignore that part. Had they both lived. It would not been a happy ending for either.
Wouldn't say everything .
Também penso assim.
main reason why I didn't believe Elia was a willing participant was there's no mother would let there children be in a losing game and drew the short stick I think she did tried to stop Rhaegar but being stuck in a place where she has render useless and had no power I think its safe to assumed that she just had no way out due to the fact that Aerys hold them as a hostages and possibly threaten her Over Aegon's claim
Specially when you take into account that the last Blackfyre Rebellion ended in Elia's lifetime.
You're not wrong. Glad to see a different perspective.
Elia would have not allowed her children to be disinherited to give way for Jon Snow
Exactly! Elia would never agree with Rhaegar recreating Daemon Blackfyre. Its interesting to see how Rhaegar parallels the worst Targaryen Kings, instead of the best.
@@jorgebersabe293 Rhaegar the Unworthy
Elia Martell is probably my favorite character that we will never get to meet.
I'm soo glad someone understands that Elia shouldn't be seen as a door mat so their otp can get together . I personally think it's racist to think so and it mirrors many characters' views on the dornish , which is played for laughs when you understand the dornish as a people. I also feel as if people don't give Lyanna enough grief. Teen or not you can still be an objectively bad person like Cersei ,who's roughly the same age, was actively plotting to be Rhaegar's wife, while he had a wife and children, and to put Jaime in the King's guard .
P.s. I have a headcanon that Elia and Arthur (Dayne) have a thing before Kingslanding but heavily charged after.
A huge part of how fandom treats Elia comes from how fandom racializes Dorne and Dornish people. Despite how many people deny, deny, deny the idea of Dornish people being what we would call people of colour, they apply a lot of fandom tropes that generally wind up getting applied to characters of colour, especially women of colour.
Like how Elia is supposedly this spineless mother figure who steps aside gracefully for Lyanna, or allows Rhaegar to treat her like garbage. I’ve even read fanfics where she helps remove Aegon from the line of succession, just because Jon is so pure and perfect and Aegon is a rake/gay/otherwise unfit.
But in the world that GRRM created, I have a very hard time believing that Elia would ever, just on a purely political note, encourage Rhaegar to rape and impregnate a teenager, or endanger her own children’s lives that way. It’s a monstrous misreading of the text, and IMO inspired by biased readings of the text that stem from racism in our own modern society.
Yeah agreed, I'm extremely uncomfortable with the assumption that Elia was sexually open or polyamorous simply because of her culture/race, and it's not that she couldn't be, but the assumption that she is feels very racially motivated to me. And that is not helped by the fact that GoT leaned HARD into basically every racist "sexy/spicy Latin" stereotype for the Martells/Sands.
@@HillsAliveYT I would bet they did that in the show because David Benioff himself fetishizes "spicy Latinas". You can find proof of that in his short story collection "When the Nines Roll Over".
@@HillsAliveYTI think people view she might see sexuality and relationships in such a way because well her and Oberyn were close, it wouldn't be far fetched to take a page out of your older siblings book on how to live your life
@@hez859Oberyn is younger than Elia, what would she learn about love from a younger brother? Are you daft?
I dont see this at all. I've never read Dorne as Hispanic or Latino. I've read it much more as Arab, and the sexual openness is very different from that real world culture. If you look at the women of Dorne we see in modern times, I think it is possible Elia would be open to Rhaegar taking another wife. Politically inastute, but we see that over and over again in ASOIF. And I don't see how it would be considered rape by Elia if she was asked first, consensual by Liana, and Liana was over the Westerosi age of consent.
Rhaegar doing what he did with Lyanna was another example of bad judgement by Targaryen men who attempted to fullfill prophecy. Eiher to become/bring back dragons or to sire/become Azor Ahai. We don't really know how Lyanna or Elia felt about the situation. But they both met a tragic end thanks to Rhaegar's actions.
Hi! It is again a great video .Can you talk about whether the cancellation of their marriage by Rhaegar was legal or not ? It always annoys me that Rhaegar a prince could cancel a marriage without his own wife knowing it and especially without the approval of his father the KING. The fact in the TV series they say that such a treacherous act made Jon legitimate and thus the true heir of the iron throne make me vomit .
Speaking mainly of the show to start, I also thought that it was extremely dumb to go through all these hoops to make Jon legitimate and ahead of Dany in the male primogeniture. I feel like they did this to maybe make it seem less treasonous for Dany’s supporters to switch sides to Jon - so they weren’t doing it just because he was a man, but because he was also actually ahead in the succession.
In the books, I don’t think there will be this clear cut Dany vs Jon thing because we’ll have Aegon there as well. So, I would honestly prefer if GRRM left Jon as Rhaegar’s bastard son. Things get juicy then: would people pick the supposedly legit (possibly fake) firstborn, the illegitimate third born whose parentage could be more easily verified (via Howland), or the last living child of the last Targaryen king? There’s literally a war going on so we’re not in clear cut succession territory. Anything could happen depending on whoever can manage politics and armies better.
@@mixolydia3309 George did say there would be another Dancer of the Dragons, I somehow doubt Jon will be a willing participant in this conflict but who knows how his resurrection will end up effecting him. I think so far Jon probably has the weakest/least attractive position of the three to any potential supporters, Dany is indisputably the last living legitimate child of King Aerys II and more importantly she has 3 dragons and an army, and Aegon has the claim of being the "legitimate" heir to the throne by way of being the son of Rhaegar, he has the Golden Company behind him, and he's actually already taken land in Westeros. So both Dany and Aegon have much more attractive positions for any would be lords to rally to each of their sides as they fight for the throne.
The only things I can say about Elia Martell with 100% certainty is that she did not want to see her children brutally murdered and did not care to be raped and murdered.
It'd be great if we can get more insight into what she thought about the prophecy and Lyanna Stark in future books, but not really expecting it. The insight, I mean. Cautiously optimistic that the books might be published in my lifetime.
First Rhaegar thought he himself was the PTWP. Then he thought his son, Aegon, is the PTWP. Then he thought he must have three children for the prophecy to work.
Long story short, contrary to his belief that he will raise his children to be saviours, he gets hammered at the Trident. Two of the three heads of the dragon are plastered on the walls of the Red Keep. And the new administration has no knowledge about the threat of Others. So clearly, Rhaegar had no idea what he was doing. What happened was that he was shooting in the dark, deluded himself that he was hitting all the marks, and destroyed himself and his family in the process.
People saying "but Rhaegar’s actions were justified because he fathered Jon" completely ignore that the only thing he did was make Jon’s job harder for him (and that Jon wouldn’t even be necessary if Rhaegar hadn’t divided the realm in the first place).
I’ve always thought Elia would’ve been horrified and disgusted and furious not just by Rhaegar’s treatment of her, but also his manipulation and taking advantage of a 15 year old girl. Because dude was a fucking adult and Lyanna was a child and that means even if Lyanna chose to run off with him it also means she didn’t have the ability and maturation to think that through and to consent to it as a literal fucking child. That her choice was made on what was probably girlish excitement that the prince liked her until she found herself trapped in a tower, pregnant, to die in childbirth again at fifth-fucking-teen.
On every level what Rhaegar’s did to Lyanna was not only creepy, but abusive and morally wrong.
I might be wrong but idk I’ve always pegged Elia as compassionate and in general a Decent Person for some reason in general and I think she (like any decent person should be) would have been horrified at what Rhaegar did and the insinuations that come with it but I also think she might have actually felt bad for or at least didn’t hate or blame Lyanna for what happened given, again, that rhaegar and Elia were adults while Lyanna was a child. That she probable more likely blamed Rhaegar for the situation versus thinking Lyanna “stole” Rhaegar. Maybe she even felt a strange sympathy for what was a horribly manipulated child.
Either way, I think Rhaegar is definitely not the good and noble prince he tends to be portrayed as. I think he was a fucking self centered self important bastard not caring about the damage he caused in order to get what he wanted and that he basically groomed and manipulated a 15 year old girl into the situation she ended up dying in.
Since Elia was also a princess trapped in a tower to die due to Rhaegar’s self importance maybe she did feel some form of compassion for the girl also trapped in a tower to die.
Or maybe she thought Lyanna was a raging slut and whore who stole her husband. I ain’t GRRM so I can’t say for sure what she felt and I could be totally wrong.
But I assume Elia, who comes across as a Decent Person who doesn't believe in child grooming, was probably like 'this shit is fucked up' re: Rhaegar's actions
Either way tho Rhaegar is a super gross child grooming pedo and should be treated as such
I don't think westeroes has the same view of 15 year olds as modern western society.
@@fightingmedialounge519 still an older married man creeping on a much younger child
You are making elia be your typicall self insert not like other girls, she was dornish so she most likely didnt care Rhaegar was fooling around with Lyanna
How? Is it “not like other girls” to be grossed out your adult husband is preying on a child? As a woman, I know I would be.
@@javierlopez9789😂😂😂 Psychologically projecting much? Creep?
I always love it when you upload, it reminds me that there are normal sensible people out there
LOL yes I agree I'm very lucky to have all of the exact right opinions about everything.
@@HillsAliveYT Forgive me if I'm wrong but is this a re-upload?!
I could swear you did an Elia video before
@@gerardjagroo I made one about Elia and Lyanna so I have covered some of this idea before, but I felt like Elia deserved her own breakdown.
@@HillsAliveYTwould love to find that.
Good perspective, I practically never hear any Elia Martell speculations or theories, so this was a breath of fresh air.
I think Elia was the one was asked Varys to save her son and was trying to save her daughter but fails, unfortunately
This analysis also jives with my firmly held belief that Sansa is just as much an Aspect of Lyanna, as her sister. Arya has the look and the more wild instincts, so it's more obvious. But the text makes clear that Lyanna was kind, and a good lady who knows her courtesies.
Now imagine the married prince of the realm gets it into his head to run away with you. Maybe he's ranting and raving about magic and dreams and prophecy....
Like Sansa, placating Joffery with sweet words and grand declarations of love, Lyanna might have been doing the 'Fawning' part of the Fight, Flight, Freeze or Fawn fear response.
Maybe she went along with the adulterous architect of her families demise because she was trying to keep him happy so she might survive him.
Even a ceremony in front of heart tree might be mistaken for an act of true love, rather than survival, by a septon or seer who can't be inside Lyanna's mind like the reader can with Sansas POV chapters.
Yeah agreed, I think that a lot of the older generation of women are both reflected in Arya and Sansa although people tend to assume that they're meant to represent either one or the other. Arya obviously has some common threads with Lyanna (which is another reason why I'm quite suss of the idea that Lyanna took off with Rhaegar because she was madly in love and not because she wanted to dodge the traditional life of a lady), but I think that Lyanna being stuck in the Tower of Joy actually mirrors a lot of Sansa's journey being held by the Lannisters and then by Littlefinger, both people who are introduced as wanting something "good" for Sansa but who wind up turning on her and treating her horribly.
I love Elia. Thank you for doing a spot on her. ❤ As for my opinion of Lyanna, I don’t really see her as one to be submissive.
Don’t forget that Lyanna was a fourteen when she met Rhaegar, the perfect age for him to groom her.
I don’t think Elia would approve of her “Noble Dragon Prince” getting it on with a tween, especially since she had already experienced the pain of childbirth twice and would know that that would kill any woman, especially a teenager,
I just don’t understand why they are so fixated on trying to make Elia ok with it. In a story where everyone has some grey morality, why would this supposed love story be any different? Like…just accept the fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna is fucked up. Tbqh I wouldn’t be surprised if George made it even more fucked up in canon. (If Rhaegar knew about the Nissa Nissa thing, it’s possible he took Lyanna so she could be a sacrifice)
The Romeo and Juliet parallels are obvious but anyone who has actually read the play knows that it’s NOT this romantic story of soulmates and a “love too pure for this world.”
Frail Elia breastfed her children because she loved them and Rhaegar so much. She would never have put a prophecy in an old book above her children’s lives and status…
Exactly! And this is why Elia would have never been ok with Rhaegar's actions. Because he is trying to recreate Daemon Blackfyre.
Thank you for this! I loved Oberyn in the books and on the show. Unfortunately, the later dropped the ball on the Dorne storyline. I would have wanted to see a flashback with Elia but I get the feeling D&D would have ruined her too. I'm not sure if you read fan fiction but I love the following for presenting more believable versions of Elia and her reaction to Rhaegar's decisions:
1. I Was Whole, Whole I Would Remain by DwellingOnDreams
2. A Shadowed Path by LostChildrenoftheNewWorld
Thank you for fanfics. The first is interesting. Where can the second be found?
@@TheGoodLuc Hi! Both are available on An Archive of Our Own (AO3)
@@TheGoodLuc There is a St. Elia fic that I actually enjoyed called The Dragon Cub by Alperez that I also think is worth reading
I love this video so much. Elia is a character that is so overlooked. She unfortunately lived a very tragic life and her death could’ve been SO AVOIDABLE.
100% agreed, I've always been weirded out by the fandoms interpretation of Elia; as if she's just some obstacle Rhaegar had to overcome and not a victim.
I am very interested to know your thoughts of Ashara Dayne, she such a mystery and seemingly everyone and their mother has a different theory on how she fits into the greater narrative.
She is irrelevant, and nerds think of her as their waifu, so the constantly push the idea she is relevant
Ashara + Ned = Jon
@@veronicasoledadmaitrecomtr785 no, Arthur+Lyanna= Jon
@@eldonte7775 I'm not opposed to either theory (this is my first time seeing Arthur Dayne though!), but didn't GRRM confirm that L+R=J?
Absolutely agree. What Elia was put through was tragic and senseless. I actually desperately hope that GRRM kinda goes the way the show did (KINDA because the show's ending was badly written). I hope that the Battle For The Dawn comes and John and Danny aren't really actually needed. Lets face it, in the show, they were both pretty useless during the battle, just there for some cool flying scenes and to watch people they cared about die. If neither of them are really needed and the whole Prince That Was Promised thing was a bunk then the entire Targaryan dynasty was founded on a prophesy that was never real and all the tragedies that came from various Targaryans trying to position their family as the specialist snowflakes of all was a giant waste. And isn't that what Pacifist GRRM wants us to understand - that war is nothing but tragedy and waste?
I actually think that's how this is going to go simply because making Jon/Dany/Aegon any world-saving hero will allow the audience to justify all of the horror that was done by them, in their names, or to bring them into existence, and I doubt GRRM wants to do that.
A frail body doesn’t mean a weak mind or will. Rhaegar must have been a charming monster… so why didn’t he convince Elia to risk her life on another pregnancy or force her if he wanted Lyanna or a third child that badly?….Did Lewyn Martell protect Elia from murder by childbirth?…Did Elia protect herself by words or will?… There is something here we don’t know…Wouldn’t be surprised if Rhaegar was incapable of loving anyone, and never loved Lyanna at all… would Elias life or health stand in his way? Targaryen males would brutalize their own sisters to get more heirs…What’s missing here?
Justice for Elia
ouuu get them! I honestly think she was unaware of most of this stuff and was just someone that got the worst end of the stick because some people, especially her husband decided to not think things through! she's a victim to both sides of the rebellion in my opinion, from tywin, the mountain and aerys to rhaegar and lyanna themselves! they all had a part to play in her tragic fate and they should all be held responsible by the fandom to some degree
I'm honestly scared if they ever do a show on Robert’s rebellion, given the show’s narrative of the grand R+L love story, I feel like the writers would villanise Elia in some way to make the love story more tolerable or something else.
That being said I can’t imagine making Rhaenys and Aegon look bad. They were just little babies 😔 so I feel like seeing Rhaegar having a family and leaving them, especially Rhaenys who appeared to have been close to her dad, is rightfully going to rub fans the wrong way as it should do.
Also Lyanna and Elia both deserve better. They were both tied down narratively by Rhaegar is just so sad. And this is coming from someone who hated show Lyanna. Like she genuinely sucks.
One of the things I like the most about asoiaf is that even the already dead characters are pretty fleshed out because it's a transitional period between generations, I love the first book and season because you have characters like Robert, Ned, little finger, Jaime and so many more talking and thinking about the generation just gone under the mad king hearing about people like Elia rhaegar, aerys, lyanna from characters that were alive with them but out lived them is so cool to me, it adds a real connection from the main story to the time before, it also makes me want to meet and hear from those characters even more
also the fact that Oberyn hasn't already married Ellaria, who is for all intents and purposes his wife, shows us that the Dornish still do hold some traditionally Westerosi beliefs. so the idea that because Elia is Dornish she doesn't believe in the concept of a traditional marriage and is therefore okay with her husband having a paramour and publicly humiliating her is just false. if that were true about the Dornish, Oberyn would've probably already married some random Dornish noble woman and kept Ellaria as his very public life partner. but he cant do that to a noblewoman even a Dornish one so he just doesn't marry at all.
Doran also didn't remarry and doesn't have any public consorts that aren't his wife.
@@adapienkowska2605 exactly.
Great video as always. This also definitely solidifies that Rhaegar wasn't as great as people make him out to be but is selfish (and ultimately destructive) in pursuit of this prophecy, putting Elia and Lyanna (and their children) in a situation where neither can win no matter what.
And it's very weird that he wouldn't recognize that. I think Rhaegar is actually fascinating from the POV that I think he got SO obsessed with prophecy that it was literally beyond his comprehension that things wouldn't go the way that he expected them to, despite the fact that the Starks losing their shit or Elia and Lyanna's children coming into conflict are so stupidly obvious that a particularly savvy 6-year-old probably could have spotted these problems.
You know, there's one thing I've always wondered. If young Griff is Aegon, then he had to be smuggled out of King's Landing. So, if that's true, couldn't whoever was responsible have gotten Rhaenys and/or Elia out too?
No one would necessarily need to know they escaped, that body doubles had been put in their places.
I know Young Griff says his mother died, but that doesn't mean she died in King's Landing. And, Rhaenys apparently looked like a Martell, so it's not impossible she's hiding somewhere with no one the wiser. Both deaths were said to be particularly brutal, which could make it hard to later identify either of them.
I'm not suggesting Arianne is actually Rhaenys, because she was 3-4 years older, and Doran's wife likely wouldn't have been willing to go along with the ruse.
I think it's also because it kind of makes Lyanna look bad as well. I mean this a woman who doesn't want to marry Robert because he's a man-whore -which I can understand- but also runs off with a married man whose children are both under five.
I feel like way too many people project onto Rhaegar and thus make way too many "hero" justifications.
Yeah and I find that interesting because he's such an obvious projection avatar within the story itself, so you'd think who he really was would be more of a question. Whether it's Robert hating him or Dany and Cersei fantasizing about how perfect he was, the person that people imagine Rhaegar to be seems to be completely disconnected from reality, so it should be way easier to interrogate what kind of a man he really was and who the hell would do what he did in the first place.
I can see her having been fine with Rhaegar having lovers and maybe even fathering bastards. That much is very common and could probably have been negotiated to their mutual satisfaction. But you’re absolutely right that a princess of Dorne like Elia would have to be out of her mind to agree to him taking a second wife of equal rank and fathering legitimate children with her, especially after what happened at Harrenhal when Elia was already undergoing a second, very dangerous pregnancy while Rhaegar was crowning Lyanna. I think Elia was in the dark about Rhaegar’s plans and was one of the biggest victims of his machinations.
I'm not sure why people assume this was a love story at all. I assume Rhaegar was using Lyanna to get a child of Fire & Ice to fulfill his prophetic dreams. We've seen the Targaryens do some pretty stupid things in the service of the dragon dreams.
I don't know if I think he consulted Elia or not. I'm sure if he did, Elia knew she would not be able to talk him out of it. The fact that Lyanna *disappeared*, that she was presumed kidnapped, means that there was always going to be a serious problem with House Stark and House Baratheon. It's insane that this was allowed to happen. Of course, it's easy to see that Rickard Stark probably would not have wanted his daughter as a second wife (see: mistress/whore) for the crown prince and that Robert would not have wanted to give up his betrothed. But just disappearing with her was more than foolhardy.
I tend towards thinking that Rhaegar thought of himself as honorable. That he thought of serving the dragon dreams as serving the realm. But that doesn't mean I don't believe that he manipulated people around him (see: Elia/ Lyanna) to meet those needs. That's not a romance. It's more politics. Elia had nothing to gain by supporting Rhaegar in taking Lyanna to wife, but she might not have been able to stop him. I wonder if she even knew before war broke out. After all, if she had, why not send to Dorne for more support to protect herself and her children if things went badly - as they were so likely to do?
The tourney incident, the Queen of Love and Beauty, is the wrinkle in my thinking. It insults Elia. If it's a plan to sweep Lyanna off her feet I can see it, but if so, if Elia was cooperating, surely she would have feigned illness that day so as to not be present to be insulted?
I think thinking of Elia this way gives an out for most people who want to believe in the righteous romance between Jon Snow's parents. It's hard to imagine one of the most beloved characters having parents selfish enough to discard a woman and her children while they were in such a dangerous position. Likewise, I don't think Lyanna really thought through the fact that her entire family could be in danger too. And fate didn't disappoint: she lost her father and her uncle to this madness, just like her brothers lost them.
#SELFISH
Thank you for this Video, my interpretation of Elia is actually more of a Character like Catelyn or Olenna. This is the reason that I think that she and Rhaegar had a fight in Private after the Harrenhall Incident and that she was brought to Dragon Stone because Rhaegar wanted her out of her Way. A loving Mother with a powerful but relatively stupid Husband who is obsessed with something. Unfortunately, she took the short End of the Stick because he was the Crown Prince and had way more Power than Olenna's or Catelyn's Husbands or Sons. I think Rhaegar is a Villain in some Sense and GRRM actually agrees with me: "What is a Villain if not the Hero of the other side" ;)
you ate this *as usual*
Personally I really wish Elia and her children had been part of the plot as side characters in Dany's story so she could be part of the plot. I always figured that Rhaegar's "plan" (if you want to call it that) was to have Lyanna pregnant while serving as a lady in waiting for Elia, "Adopt" Jon Snow as the Orys Baratheon to his trueborn Dragon Trio and then pass the whole thing off as an apology for the Tourney at Harrenhall.
'Oberyn and Elia were as close as any siblings should be.' I see what you did there. Usually you would say 'as close as they could be' but in the context of game of thrones 'should' is more applicable.
I love your commentary so much! It so necessary! Basic, group-think "stan" theories drive me insane! So glad there's a SMALL minority of people willing to see between the lines and use a bit of common sense with forming ideas about the stories of the people lost in the gray area of this world.
In my opinion rhaegar and lyanna is where the fandom really drops the ball. Everybody realises George is not writing a happy story, many people believe daenerys will become the mad queen for example, or that the others will conquer almost all of westeros, but then everyone wants to believe that rhaegar is an almost perfect individual whom should have been king instead of the drunk oaf Robert baratheon. For me the biggest hint this is not the case is one small detail. It is said the mountain that rides was knighted by rhaegar. To me if the man who knighted him wasn't meant to be a statement by George, he would just have tywin have knighted him, since tywin obviously makes the most sense as gregor's liege lord and the man whom uses gregor's brutality for his own end. But no he had the supposedly perfect Prince knight arguably the most evil man in the series, I guess for no reason at all.
Saying that Oberyn and Elia were "as close as any siblings should be" is the funniest tongue-in-cheek GoT joke I have ever heard omg
I think it's worth mentioning that you misspoke or misremembered what happened at 6:57 when you said "After Aegon's Conquest, Maegor and Aenys battled it out for the throne". It was long after Aegon's death, not the Conquest, which were several decades apart, that there was conflict over the Iron Throne, and it wasn't Aenys and Maegor who fought. Maegor never rose up against his brother, it was upon the death of Aenys did Maegor then take the throne for himself, and the battle was between Maegor and Aegon the Uncrowned, the son of Aenys.
Also, it's pretty much accepted that Maegor was considered a usurper, their father's wives being equal didn't really matter so much. Aenys was born first, so he was considered the heir, and even Maegor respected that. After Aenys died, Maegor took the throne, which most people agreed was a usurpation over the eldest son of Aenys, because that was how succession laws worked. The only reason Maegor succeeded (for a time) in his usurpation was simply because of bigger-dragon diplomacy.
Yeah I misspoke/miswrote and didn't catch it in the edit, I can see why it would be confusing though.
Either Rhaegar insults House Stark by making Lyanna a whore, either he threatens House Martel by making a second legitimate Targaryen line... Oh, and either way Robert will want to bash his skull with a hammer.
Even without Aerys and the many alliances, it would be hard to believe that it doesn't lead to war, immediately or a few generations later.
I love Jon. He’s my second favorite character in the whole series. I want him to live happily ever after with everything he ever wanted.
But this is exactly why I DO NOT want him to be instrumental to the destruction of the others. Because Elia and her children - and Lyanna too, for that matter - deserve to be more than necessary sacrifices for the fate of the world.
Screw Rhaegar. Screw Targaryen narcissism. Screw the entire idea that a clan of people who do nothing but destroy everything they touch are somehow the only hope for humanity, and that their super-special magic makes everything they do excusable.
And screw the idea that a woman raised to expect equality would be okay with her husband screwing around when she can’t. To say nothing of endangering her children.
An excellent video on Elia. I think she is a perfect example along with Rhaegar and Lyanna of why I genuinely believe that most people are missing the entire point of ASOIAF. This is most obvious with Fire and Blood, which is an in-universe historical account of events and how they played out could be accurate or not; this is certainly true of ASOIAF. The point is that history as well as GRRM's series is more than just a select few people, it's about massive/and minor societal shifts and fluxes. This is not a book series about a saviour and a final fight for the fate of westeros, its not a Lord of the Rings, it's a Dune or Foundation series and as such it shares thematic resonanace with GRRM's earlier sci fi stories even ostensibly being a fantasy.
Everyone in it is an unreliable narrator. There is no overarching third person narrative, the narrative is by nature murky and open to interpretation because that is a commonly misunderstood facet of historical research. There are a lot of conflicting narratives. And what is ASOIAF but a historically based narrative? It's an empire in decline, with social divisions, unrest and civil war. From a History persepective and honestly judging by GRRM's past narrative quirks, and the sheer number of plot threads that are left, my theory is that The Winds of Winter will end with Westeros falling to the Great Other (an allegory perhaps for the black death?) and all of the specuilation over heirs/faegons/conspiracies/the Iron throne/the plots will all be rendered absolutely pointless. Evidence of GRRM's habit of twisting conventionl narrartives comes from earlier works such as A song for Lya (Also inspiration for the wierwood net) which turns on its head the ideas of love and lonliness, twisitng apart notions of what most of us all hold dear.
Would that cause outrage, yes, but I think it works as a culmination to the overarching theory of the books. That power corrupts, that war always hurts those who least deserve it and that frankly bad shit just happens for no reason. As text in his short story Nor the Many-Colored Fires of a Star Ring explicitly says. "We’re just for a brief meaningless little time, and nothing makes sensem, and the time will come when we’ll be out there, wailing, in a sea of never-ending night.” The line in GRRM's worlds between hope and cynicism is razor thin and it's this line that ASOIAF walks with no clear truth or untruth merely reflections and illusions.
All in all I love your video essays! Keep on keeping on!
I’m sure that Elia would have told her brothers if she were cool with everything. The fact that she didn’t and Rhaghar didn’t protect her and her children is NOT COOL!
killed it once again!!!
I feel like you been wanting to make this video about this POV for a while
LOL yeah it's definitely one idea that has been rolling around in my head for a while.
Wonderful deconstruction of Elia’s character! ✨
As soon as that tournament was over I think she was making plans to sail back home. Aside from her husbands disrespects she probably saw everyone's reaction to what Rhaeger did and knew it was only a matter of time before it went wrong. No wonder the Tageryans could only marry each other because this man started a civil war based on a dream he couldn't interpret properly, Imagine being married to and surrounded by ALL that hubris!!!!
It always feels weird to me when people look at Elia’s brothers to proclaim she wouldn’t care. They were both men and even in Dorne that offered them more freedom, and Oberyn was never married. Besides, Oberyn and his partner being poly does not mean all of drone is poly any more than Ned being so honorable means ALL of westeros is. If that were case why did Oberyn get in a fight with a man whose wife he slept with? Doran doesn’t have any bastards IIRC and while he married for love her stayed in the marriage it seems.
Then you get into competing kids from higher noble families and the throne and Elia who loved her kids and it’s like there’s no way she would be ok with it all
7:15 - I’d argue that it wasn’t even that Visenya and Rhaenys were on equal footing, because they weren’t really, Visenya was the eldest of all the siblings and the traditional marriage choice, Aegon specifically chose to take Rhaenys as a second wife (note he actually was not the first Targaryen to have multiple wives, as Aenar the exile did as well, but even then it seems this was uncommon based on the text), and as Visenya was the eldest, that was the driving force for (the idea of*) Maegor’s inheritance over Aenys, since while Aenys was Aegon’s firstborn, there was an argument that Aegon was shared between the two sisters, the heirs should be judged via the seniority of their mothers, which is perhaps a holdover from a more egalitarian (or rather, less strictly patriarchal) Valyrian view on the subject, and Aenys was picked as a part of assimilating into Westerosi succession expectations. In this view, Maegor is more senior than Aenys via his more senior mother, although the issue remained that ultimately Aegon did not share this view and Visenya seemingly only held it to some degree. This level of complication is likely why even the Dragonstone Targs did not seem to make a habit of polygamy, likely as a measure of stability to try and avoid this very scenario, much like how some theories suggest the Dragonlord incest developed purely to prevent the bloodline of the dynasty from spreading out too much/growing too large.
Does anyone else wonder if Rhaegar had been king already and the rebellion hadn't gotten off the ground that it would have been like Henry VIII's great matter between Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn? Anne was almost engaged to someone else before Henry took intrest in her.
Sooo this video hit hard, as a big brother.
I really think that the Martell Men have it written all over their faces. Loosing a sister.. is horrible... especially to make some white dudes crazy, chosen one/great man conspiracy theory....come true.
Also facinating that the fandoms dismissal of her and Elia is the only POC character, in this so called grand romance...hmm
Do i have to say Amazing Take?? ;)
Giving the Lannisters some aloe for that 10:51 burn. 🤣🤣🤣
I love the way grrm uses the 'history does weird things to dead women' trope in his books. History even in real life always vilifies or sanctifies a dead woman; Usually this depends on how the men around her viewed her when she was living, or what makes the men of the time comfortable with assuming based on the circumstances and situation. (Which is almost always a loving sweet and doting or just blatantly permissive woman or just basically the female devil incarnate.)
Examples of this: lyanna stark, elia martell (of course), joanna Lannister
Rhaegar on his way to commit yet another unspeakably dumb act for the sake of some vague-ass prophecy.
Another political aspect to consider- most non-Dornish Westerosi (aka Andals and First Men) are very biased if not downright racist against the Dornish. They're treated with suspicion and contempt and seen as outsiders even if they've fully integrated into Andal society- Elia being a great example of this, actually. Always seen as an odd duck, a _foreigner_ , even though Dorne is Westerosi by definition and Elia acts as a perfect Andal wife to a husband that does not return the favor. You also have to remember that the reason why the Blackfyres (whose rebellions finally ended in Elia's living memory) got so much initial support was because the lords didn't want the half-Dornish Baelor Breakspear on the throne, and instead preferred Daemon, who was born to a Valyrian mother.
Keeping that in mind, if Lyanna's children with Rhaegar were to be legitimized and a succession crisis occurs, who do you think the Westerosi lords would side with: the half Dornish kids, or the kids with an ethnically First Men mother?
If Elia was smart- and considering the Martell proclivity towards intelligence and canniness, she almost certainly was- she would have rightfully fought like hell against her husband marrying Lyanna/legitimizing his bastards by her, because that relationship and those children would have absolutely been a MASSIVE threat to her own children's reigns and their very lives.
anyone know what tv show the actress in the thumbnail is from? i've seen her used as elia in a few videos but never got the source
The real ashara dayne or Lyanna Stark next maybe
I wonder why the sometime assumption is made about Dorne being polygamamous. Is it a true polygamous system in current time? It is more sexually free in that it gives women some choice and doesn't ostracize it's bastards- I may be mistaken but I don't remember hearing the Martells' having multiple spouses in recent history, or any Dornish that I'm aware of. She was a Princess of Dorne married to a Targaryen Prince that would one day rule. She married to be Queen and have her children rule after her, there was no sharing of power in this scenario. Especially not with some Lord's daughter. I can't see her as meek and acquiescing to that kind of disregard to the mortal danger that it places upon her own children, not for some _prophecy_, especially seeing how her family reacted to her tragedy. I think Elia was probably much like her brother, who never mentions any of it. She would likely have told someone of her house if she knew what Rhaegar's intentions were because it directly effects Dorne. I also think she was publicly humiliated at the Tourney, then immediately trapped by a monstrous King who she likely rightly believed was vindictive enough to hurt her babies. She probably was trying to bide her time until she could escape. What happened to her was unspeakable. I don't know if Faegon is her son, but part of me hopes that he is, and a small cosmic righting to a calumny that seeps the roots of Westeros in that he avenges his mother, sister and uncle. I also wish we could know her mind, I think we'd be surprised at what she'd have to say.
Yeah Dorne really isn't polygamous at all so I don't get the assumption either. I think their relative sexual freedom/lack of shame leads people to think Elia may have been more open-minded, which is possibly true, but there's still a pretty big jump from less sexual judgment to straight-up embracing polygamy.
Bravo! Amei esse vídeo, a maioria dos criadores de conteúdo sobre Asoiaf sempre promovem uma alienação do bom senso toda vez que o assunto é Elia, Rhaegar e Lyanna.
11:00 The closest any siblings *SHOULD* be (looking at you Lannisters)
LMFAO yeah I literally wrote as close as could be but then was like wait no that is not correct, damn Jaime and Cersei for poisoning the well.
Lol I just hate how the screenshot of r/l as they're about to kiss look like Padma and Anakin from the Prequels 😂 she looks like Natalie from the side and he's a blonde Haden lol
it is known that Jon died. it is also known that no undead character has had, to this point, POV chapters.
could Jon no longer be a POV character when he comes back, the same way it's happened with Cat & Lady Stoneheart?
could Jon be nothing but a tool of something bigger in the War for Spring?
Hmmm, interesting thought!
Jon warged in Ghost as he died, the 'undead Jon' won't be Jon, meli is going to bring for an abomination
@@eldonte7775 exactly. it they take too long to bring him back, he might come back more animalistic (like Rickon), more broken (like Baric & Lady Stoneheart), and altogether less human.
my guess is that Mell is there to revive Jon *and* to be POV at the Wall.
The only way it would have been acceptable to everyone for Lyanna and Rhaegar to marry is if Elia died and Robert and Lyanna's betrothal was broken, which I doubt Rickard would do unless Robert did something very bad or died. I'm sure Rickard was aware that Robert had Mya and still didn't break the betrothal.
Rhaegar was obsessed with "the dragon has 3 heads" but didn't accept that those 3 could have well been himself, Viserys, and his son Aegon. Or if he had waited, maybe Daenerys would have still been born. Egg already fucked the Targs at Summerhall with prophecy bullshit, but ig its the whole point of the story that no one learns lessons from history
Oberyn telling tyrion elia thouth he was cute as a baby. Tells me everything i need to know about her as a persoon.
Dorne is a principality, not a kingdom. The distinction only matters because Dorne is not one of the 7 kingdoms but the iron islands are
I find it a bit infuriating that some people would claim that elia would support rhaegar and lyanna together is because she's from dorne, jst because somebody who's raised around polyamory or polygamy doesn't mean they're automatically okay with it, my mom's father has another wife (they're muslims) but if my dad ever tries to do the same thing, mom would divorce him in a heartbeat
The reason Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia *may* have had something to do with Elia spilling the beans (probably in a hostile way to Lady Ceresi Lannister) about the Lannister children being the illegitimate children of Aerys II and Joanna Lannister (Tywin had his stones damaged during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and could not father children, so his squire Prince Aerys made a "arrangement" for Tywin to marry his cousin Joanna, who just happened to be a lady in waiting for Aerys's wife Rhaella and Aerys's secret paramour).
Whenever someone points out Dorne’s sexually liberated culture it is definitely compelling. However I don’t think Elia or Lyanna wanted to take part in Rhaegar’s dreams and prophecy. I don’t think Lyanna was kidnapped, it seems she did run away. But definitely didn’t plan on having kids and getting married. I mean she turned down Robert, a man she seemed to find attractive (could be wrong on that) but knew he wasn’t going to be monogamous and likely and more importantly ignore her. So I don’t see her running away from a married man who wants to use her as a prophecy incubator
I suggest reading the books abd paying better attention. Lyanna told Ned clearly she did NOT want to be with Robert
@@breakingthechainsofpain1140 yes due to his infidelity. Didn’t have to be mean about it though, come on we’re all people here.