An Open Letter To React | Prime Reacts
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- čas přidán 18. 01. 2024
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Article link: dev.to/matfrana/react-where-a...
By: Matteo Frana | / matfrana
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Hey I am sponsored by Turso, an edge database. I think they are pretty neet. Give them a try for free and if you want you can get a decent amount off (the free tier is the best (better than planetscale or any other))
turso.tech/deeznuts - Věda a technologie
You know what’s better than React? Super Monaco GP on the Sega Genesis. That game was the peak of simplicity and elegance. No need for webpack, NextJS, or WebAssembly. Just pure racing fun with pixel-perfect graphics and sound. I still play it every day on my CRT TV. React is just a fad, Super Monaco GP is forever.
As ive aged ive realized that simplicity is always the best policy.
HTMX all the way
@@KangoV planning to check it out forsure
That's due to exponential complexity - 2 bits = 4 states, 10 bits = 1024.
Simplicity - in terms of minimisation and modularisation is the way to go; modularisation particularly turns those multiplications into additions in terms of potential state configurations
dropping react and learning htmx sounds like a complexity i could do without
@@xellestar react is great if you get paid by the hour
@0:30 It is called "safety-pin", maybe not popular in your country but it is offten crucial part of small metal badges you can pin to cloths.
Separately it is used to hold two part of clothes with secure but disconnetable bond.
Astro SSR page partials + HTMX is an interesting combination. Requires a hosting adapter, but you can at least switch providers by just installing a different adapter.
“Hosting adapter” concept gives me hives.
@@JeremyAndersonBoisekinda needed if you want to use their hosting features. Dropping in a standard build output will probably also work but you won’t get stuff like the edge network, image optimization, …
@@JeremyAndersonBoise You can also just run it from a node server
Yeah I started playing around with HTMX today, it seems like the only sensible way to handle the client right now. Absolutely brilliant design.
Call me crazy, but.... put the server on the server, put the client on the client. When the lines between them blur, it is hard for devs to reason about them properly.
Crazy … there you asked 😊
future is PWA with Typed Languages compiled to WebAssembly.
What are some frameworks for that other than .NET Blazor? Or some to keep an eye on?
hope we use Dart, is better than JS or TS
Yes! Dart has gotten so much better with patterns/records
Blazor ftw
22:17 love that sentence
The title and picture in the thumbnail had me cracking up before I ever clicked on this video.
I still find react as a standalone library / framework, a fun way to write frontends. My latest project is a go server sending a vite built react app that's embedded in the binary.
The api schema is defined as an openapi spec so I can generate the backend and frontend api code for both. Get type safe code for both sides and just have to write the logic and ui components to hook it together.
I can do all my backend in go and the frontend in react. I don't care about ssr, I can lazy load parts of the reavt application to reduce js file size.
I find the way react works to be intuitive to my way of thinking, I like the way components naturally form and can be refactored, I like JSX and I think it integrates well with typescript.
It could be because it's the first framework I used for frontend and I have no patience to try anything else.
Not a huge fan nextjs or server components though, so if those are the complaints I agree. Nextjs feels just different enough from actual node that it's not really nodejs anymore.
This is the way. SSR is overrated for complex web applications. Vite is so nice to use and totally simplifies all the worst parts of the js ecosystem.
Exactly ❤
Try solidjs, its like react but simpler and faster
I mean actually yes, React is very intuitive and is much less abstracted than other frameworks/libraries, so it is easy to understand and expect what happens under the hood. If you understand Javascript, then you should understand how the whole react works, including the virtual dom, it's reconciliation and rendering. It is simple enough to understand instinctively on why we use useMemo, memo, useCallback, the rerenders, without specifically researching exact implementation designs. Compared to other stuff like vue or (newer) svelte, where a lot of stuff is processed by the compiler so an average developer has a lot less clue about how exactly does the rendering and reactivity mechanisms work there. React is not the best performance wise or ease-of-use wise, but it is definitely the most straightforward without any weird complications in the actual *complex* codebases (where with newer frameworks/libraries you would have trouble understanding what exactly is going on under the hood and all it's intricacies).
About the nextjs, I don't understand your point at all. "it's not really nodejs anymore" - so what? Why does it matter? It is not nodejs, it is nextjs and it has its own way of handling server side logic and (possibly) outside apis. If you need to do something frontend specific, you do a request directly in a server component. It is fast and easy. As easy as it can get theoretically, you tell me, what could be easier and faster to implement? It is the least amount of time spent and the least amount of lines of code for exactly the same result. Much easier and faster than having a separate backend. And not to mention that you don't need any complicated "api schema", type generation and anything else. Nothing is required. Where you need it, you fetch what you want directly where it's needed, but if you want you can expose an external enpoint as well. I don't understand the problem. It is a new convenient way to do server side logic that ADDS to what existed previously(you are not even required/forced to replace anything).
If you don't care about ssr, it doesn't mean no one does.
React became popular because it was so easy to start writing code (e.g. in contrast to Angular). The problem today is that most of fe developers don’t know how to write React properly…
I would go further and say they don't know how to code period! They stay for the Money!
@@macctoshIt's same as hatred with php. Most devs can't write php code properly.
Exactly
@@genechristiansomoza4931 same
@@macctosh I would argue the opposite, they understand well how to code, but don`t understand the web, HTML, CSS; JS, the browser, the network, the user, efficiency etc. But man can they put together an algorothm! Oh yes they can.
I’m dead from the fact Turso gave him the link “Deez Nuts” 😂
How easy old technology failures has been forgotten, like GWT and many similar technologies were written and fall back in the day.
I just love using HTMX - Alpine frontend and fastpai backend combo
This is the way.
Thing is no one gets paid doing that until it's your own startup
Complecting? Simple and easy? Did Prime watch "Simply Made Easy" by Rich Hickey before that? Where's that video? :D
there's nothing more satisfying than writing an htmx frontend with sinatra in
Incoming Hacktoberfest issue to fix that missing closing parenthesis.
So Prime actually watched Rich Hickey's "simple made easy" talk :)
I just boarded the HTMX train and love it! 😊
This just in: prime react reaction
I feel like for average devs HTMX has the potential to be more secure because it's a simple paradigm. I'd rather have a house with one door and a crappy lock than a house with 100 doors each with a good lock. It also says nothing about security which to means it won't get in the way of whatever solution you choose to set up.
React on its way to become NextJS.
Then, we will have facebook create a hosting provider for React.
ding ding ding ding
Not to mention they now have released UI library as well styleX.
I think i can see what's coming up now😅
I like React, no idea what any of these frameworks are though since it's just a component library to me. My companies front-end is mostly a mix of JSPs with JQuery + AngularJS which we've bolted React onto because Angular fucked us over with backwards compatibility. We basically have our own framework, which we are very slowly able to move parts to React as we continue to add features.
Reinventing the wheel then
The hard part is between the server and browser is a security boundary which requires effort to not make a vulnerability. There are libraries to handle this but they have their own costs.
If someone can make it easier to describe how information securely makes it to a spot on the page then they will win
React doesn’t even know what react is anymore
every web front-end tech stack has transitioned from first being loved and then eventually loathed
Two reacts
I mean nowadays it more of a library then a few years ago. I would argue react is more and more like react wanted to be
13:25 - The reason it is called a uni-directional data flow is because the state is stored in a single immutable store or the parent component that owns the state, and it (the state) flows into childrent components which may or may not dispatch actions to modify the state, but they never directly modify the state themselves. In an Angular-like bi-directional data flow, you achieve reactivity by SHARING the state between the template and the model (or binding, hence is the name - two-way binding). UI and data are automatically in sync when it is bidirectional. You don't share the state in React, you don't mutate the state in React, you always return the new state. In React, the state is local or encapsulated. It is not accessible to any component other than the one that owns and sets it. UI reacts to updates when data changes, but not vice versa. It has nothing to do with the server and whatnot. By Prime's logic, EVERYTHING on the internet would be a bi-directional data flow because it pings the server at some point 🤷♀
12:40 regarding simple/complex versus easy/difficult, see Rich hickeys talk "simple made easy" or "simplicity matters"
15:50 "complecting"
Prime doesn't even know what a safety pin is
Believe this is why i like Svelte. Stated with Angular (the really hard one), then the updated one, oops than had to throw it all away for changing... Ah then React, WOW nice!.... But context redux and .... got to be a pain, should be better solution for common operations. Then got into Svelte and haven't looked back. SolidJS seeems nice too but Svelte might be it for me..
I do enjoy fetching from components
I understand why all the frontend frameworks, BaaS, et. al. stuff was made and it is probably an even bigger pain in the ass to not have them.
Oh you have no Idea. I wrote vanila javascript then happily switched to JQuery, then I found my calling with React! It's impossible to do better! I think!
It used to be you needed these libraries due to inconsistencies between web browsers DOM support. This is why I used jQuery. Not for the query part but as a compatibility layer. Browsers have gotten so much more capable and standard since then. The biggest thing I want a framework to do is handle SPA routing. Behind that, they don't really do much that is helpful. DOM rendering? Super-easy these days, don't need a framework.
@@username7763 This
Bro uses Gimp on stream. Legend.
The rust foundation approach is significantly efficient! It finds the least optional solution in the longest time and then botchrs the implementation. This spenda the most resources and political capital to get a completely fairly shared level of contempt from everyone involved (and even those scheduled to be involved until they were uninvited last minute! Spooky action at a distance!)
did he say "bun-evolent dictator" lol
I was getting into React when it was new. Sold on in being really cool. Then I found myself spending endless hours trying to get webpack to put anything together. Then got more an more dismayed being as building with webpack was taking longer, and longer and longer....Why am I even building a program written in an interpreted language like JS for God's sake? Crazy.
What does webpack have to do with React? use vite instead!
@@macctosh Well, back when I used Reacr, it was a new thing at the time, webpack was the way people built things. I only discovered it by following React tutorials, blogs, etc. Never heard of vite. What will you be using next week?
@@macctoshvite didn't exist for a long time chill
How about gulp, then? React does not require webpack. That is a dev's choice to use.
@@-Jason-L I have no idea. I'm pretty sure gulp did not exist when I did the work I'm talking about. Is gulp really easy to work with than web pack? Is gulp really faster than webpack? Does gulp have speed at all, like going form change in JS code to running result on screen in less than 1 second? It does not answer my question... Why on Earth do I need a huge, complex, slow build system to use an interpreted language like JS which was clearly created for people to use in a "type and go" manner? This is all such an insane mess.
Everything that this dude want is Angular there is nothing missing as far as I can see
vue is the most stable framework out there, i cant for the life of me figure out why its not the standard...
Angular? Solid? React is surely the most chaotic one with a dozen of ways to do common things.
i mean they did go through a rough patch with the vue 3 transition
I used to use vue but I switched to svelte/sveltekit, I find it so much better, easier and clearer
You must be new to the web dev community! Welcome! Start a blog when it becomes painful; it won't help, but it gives us DevOps engineers something to read after a long day and get some perspective. "At least I'm not that guy..."
Vue is just simple and organized no matter how big or small the app is.
MJ was brave enough to name “them”, which makes any accusations dubious
HoC upon HoC. Some functions from context, some from mapToProps some im not sure from where. It is hard to construct a picture how a page works.
What is the main attraction of these frameworks nowadays, not having to write query selectors, or being able to not have think about basic component level state managment(before having to deal with state sharing between components and global state)?
Im a filthy frontend developer who focuses on CMS and never run into jobs where its pratical to use a whole framework.
0:32 you know things are bad when MJ is called upon Hee-Hee SHAMONE AOWWW
React has Next and Remix, Vue has Nuxt, Qwik has QwikCity, Solid has SolidStart, Svelte has SvelteKit. What's their point hating on react for needing next/remix framework on top of React ?
Now it might be you have no choice. You HAVE to use a framework or build your projects with framework support in mind. Frameworks that come with their own quirks and standards and bullshit overkill features (bloat) you don't actually need, but now you're expected to learn, because these are the expectations of the React team. This increases the complexity of the ecosystem, which is the last thing we asked for.
@@paradoxalJohn CRA is dieing but just use vite if you don’t want a framework
@@mskzzz For personal projects? Sure. But the expectations set by the React team matter, they will trickle down to enterprise projects and then everybody who works with React will be expected to learn yet another tool since React by itself is no longer the standard.
@@paradoxalJohn idk what delusional world you live in but vite + react is completely fine for big projects. Not everybody needs SSR and server components (you don't even need a metaframework for that).
I'm working on big company projects that are still on CRA and webpack. Not every project is greenfield.
Been a FE dev for 3 years now working with react (next.js), and recently switched jobs where we use Vue and I really like it. We have a very clear seperation between client (SPA) and server, whereas in my previous job our tech lead was deadset on adopting all of Next.js's features ASAP which gave so many headaches. Unstable app router back then, server actions, server components... Ugh
I am more a backend guy but sometimes I have to make some demo interfaces. I previously used vue 2, which was quite fun to use for me. But now with vue 3 I feel that it caught up with React/Angular difficulty and I have to learn many things to make it work. Especially when building step and composition API are encouraged :(
@@arion_vulgaris composition API is just a problem created and sold the solution. It's not true that for every component you need to use composition api because you're not sharing that many methods or features with other components.
More over, the more complex and inter dependent you're making those components, the stronger the signal is to move away and simplify things. It's ok to repeat code here and there if it causes you to be more productive and have less confusion.
Forgetting all these brackets because hes a programmer not using an IDE that auto closes them
Lmao good one
My issue with the local minima argument is always that I don't see its value as a gatekeeper. It's certainly great to tell people "don't try to keep things the same way", but it's not great to tell people "don't try new things".
For all you know, you might be on a very flat-ish portion of the curve, and nowhere near your local minima. While there is value in not staying entranched, there is also value in further exploring so long as you are making progress.
It all comes down to sampling size, the more people are trying different things, the less likely we are to be stuck in a local minima *everywhere*.
While nothing tells us we're not trying to dig further down into a local minima, nothing tells us we are.
In the end, it comes down to: do people still have new ideas to try? Do they work? Then even if it's not for everyone and I might dislke it, I'd encourage them to continue.
We only truly know if we've stabilized into a local minima when we're truly stagnating.
I’m getting into front end and I’m starting with flutter. Man it’s probably because I’m dumb but this learning curve got me spinning.
@thephoenix-bf5qd You contradict yourself. If it can do front end then it's frontend.
mobile dev is hard
good look trying to find web library for flutter
Thankfully that web isn't my target platform but I will keep that in mind@@elvispalace
That's a blanket pin. It's like a big safety pin. Some girls uniforms also use them to secure a kilt or skirt.
More like weird safety pin
React is paying my salary, so everything around react is great for me
the cope is real
Same, but I am currently transitioning to a different framework.
@@prodfragment If the company changes the framework, I'll follow it. the salary decides
Respectable@@elvispalace
Feels like a based take from a chad who's solving problems instead of being dependent to a particular framework.
For me this article kinda gives me: don’t change vibes. Just to keep building heavy client apps.
A few years ago I laughed at the statement „react is a library“ - as many have also. Nowadays I kinda see this. It doesn’t want to have a fully working framework with router and state management. Other libraries and frameworks are supposed to take the spot - and I really like it since it’s gives you some kind of freedom choosing your solution.
All of this makes it more complex - since you need to „know“ a lot and find the „best“ solution. But that’s ok since you are not dependent on the framework for changing these kind of stuff.
If they are not happy with the state of frameworks they can get together and create stuff like remix or next to have their opinion of the web in react. I guess it would even be needed since there definition should also be a way to create SPAs like they are done currently.
For a complex application like "Netflix," what would you choose?
Complex? ...Netflix front-end is a joke! every time I remove something from my list the list goes back to the beginning. wtf!
It would be a fun social experiment to tell Vim users that they're vendor locked by vim.
I agree and also came to criticizing React, but looking back to what we were able to do using it I'd still say that React is an impressive advance in the web dev.
I'm a php js guy. I've created my own frameworks that are super lightweight and very fast in both php and js. The programmers I work with love it. The clients love the speed. The only reason I don't release these into the wild is due to the nature of what programmers are used to, they seem to want everything to be overly complex. They will get on their high horses and pick apart my frameworks and criticize every little thing because it should be more like framework X. I also don't have time to release them and deal with all the updates everyone will want. These frameworks handle any situation you can come up with, but I'm going to keep them inside my little bubble for now. I wouldn't have been able to create them without using things like laravel and react. In fact, one client we work with, everything is c#/react with type script. I do think the programming world needs to move to less complex at some point, time to refactor. These frameworks do exist, but I'm sure the others out there that have created them will never release them either.
You invented the best framework and no one but you and several others know about it. If you haven’t mentioned php and js, I could’ve thought you might be some form of a hidden genius.
Now down to earth. We all have our own pet frameworks, OK? And we all secretly believe it’s the best thing out there. Just the hustle of releasing it in the wild is not worth it. I feel you bro. Good luck
I grew up with php and js, programmed in many different languages and frameworks. I still think they could both be great. Ya, you hit the nail on the head, many people have hidden frameworks and I bet a lot of them are gems. I have to give props to anyone that decided to release it into the wild, even react.@@Cmacu
I don't even use framework. Just a simple MVC folder structure. Just pure php html css js. It's doable but average dev will not figure out how to do this without knowledge of using php frameworks.
React has a new business daddy. And business daddy needs to sell some hosting to pay for all those acquihires.
If you're building applications that include high levels of interactivity and client side state, especially if it needs to work offline, is HTMX ever a good choice?
For example, Photopea, Fimga, Kapwing. Any of those involve large amounts of client generated data and client side state, some work offline.
If you're making such application, HTMX is a wrong tool. The key part is "if"
If you need a lot of interactivity and you don't want to use React and such you can always just go for Vanilla.
@@Salantor I find vanilla very difficult to manage once you reach a certain level of complexity, then you end up designing your own framework that starts looking more and more like the patterns in the popular framework and you wonder why you bothered.
@@nuvotion-live Dunno, to have a tool lailored specifically to your needs and not a general purpose tool that might and might not work in your case? Patterns are the same for everyone, their implementation differs.
22:33 Ror and Hotwire :)
"big client apps maybe weren't the way" - ThePrimeTime...... sooooooooooooo DHH was right all along? LMAO!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!
I'm such a funny guy...
Maybe "browsers" are limiting our brains.
Devices connected directly to services?
How else do you get info to/from people devices?
Some way for normal people to directly influence whats in databases when...buying some crap on amazon..and then getting an order still
they could give you like the ip address, username, password, ssh keys
"react is incredibly impressive"
- ThePrimeagen 2024, what went wrong?
There are some things I like about react. It clearly has some functional programming inspiration. You also have flexibility over when you use it or not. You don't have to bootstrap a single react render and have your app be all react. Instead, you can react-render within different components of your application only where you find it useful. You can also just take over and start modifying the DOM in a react component as long as you know the rules.
But it seems react programmers don't take advantage of these features. They seem to think that some react is good, so all code should be react. No! Use it as a library where it helps but skip it where it doesn't. I hate "create react app" for this mentality. Your app shouldn't be react. It should be your code, your app. If your app benefits from using react in some places, go for it. But your goal should never be to create a react application.
The react as a library thought probably needs to be adopted by many. A few years ago I laughed about this statement. But nowadays I see the nice things in it
But now the js part of react is warped trying to following paradigms that were not hard baked into it, setState with its evolution to hooks is an example of it.
@@ulisesavila2879hooks are amazing though once fully embrace them and make custom ones too
Oh brother, you're just repeating my thoughts when you say so much code to do so little.
I wonder if React Server Components will share a fate of Java Enterprise Beans....
When does a "framework" become a cage ?
astro is sick
So much drama in Frontend world. As always. It's way way more drama in Frontend world then monolith vs microservices in Backend (which is more important question imho)
Can you relate both start with R? How can you fall for it again?
React Rust
Go Htmx
FYI emoticon != emoji. Emoticons are what the author used. Emojis are what you thought emoticons are.
The blockchain should be your server
I've written web apps without any frameworks or runtime dependencies and I don't understand why this isn't done more often. Looking at the dependencies when pulling a single npm package makes me cringe. My honest opinion is that you don't really need a framework for web ui stuff if you're working alone.
I’ve been around web dev for a long time and React has been my favorite part of web dev. I really don’t understand the hate nor the appeal of the alternatives I’ve seen thusfar
Have aou ever worked with something else? Besides Angular, I think everything else is just easier to use them Angular.
Try writing your own DOM rendering code. It isn't hard anymore. I cannot really say that writing react code is any easier than writing code that directly renders to the DOM.
three to four lead in paragraphs that basically say the same thing is ai.
“Dad what do you do for work” “turso deeznuts”
0:21 Prime you've never seen a safety pin before???
It may be that brackets are not forgotten at all, but a style. I know that can be polemic but, I do like to merge the closing parenthesis with the smile (when the smile makes sense) 🤷♂
(error: mismatched parentheses :))
React is amazing if used as a library and not a framework.
It’s meant to be used to develops Web Apps, not websites. If only people would see it for what it is. You shouldn’t use react for websites, I would think that would be obvious but people keep using it to create websites when they only need static sites having minimal user interactions.
lol React is a framework. People just say is a library to give the sorry excuse it doesn’t provide any tools.
Not anymore. Vue is just better, way less maintenance, easier to do it right.
@@peanutceleryYou can use it as a library. React has features which allow you to use it in certain contexts and skip react in others. But react devs don't use them. Instead, they try to do their entire application in react which is a bad idea. I used knockoutjs like this in an application. Where I found data binding helpful, I used it where, I didn't there wasn't a point.
Remember back then when they were hyping up that "React is a library and not a framework"? Welp, seems these days are gone.
How can I bring web components to htmx?
He didn’t explain it because, guess what… it’s complex and hard to debug! The holy grail has the same flaws as the other solutions. Who could’ve thought he is just digging in another local maxima with even less potential
Why does there need to be a foundation? Why does it need to be “going” anywhere? Why can’t they just make a framework that makes websites and let people use it?
React, like most frameworks inevitably end up becoming too complex and bloated… then new frameworks come along without all the technical debt and baggage and the cycle repeats 😅
At least his name isn't Micheal Bolton.
Michael Jackson, Duran Duran...
React lost it's way when somebody thought it was a good idea to render components on the server. Otherwise, React has no equal on the client side period
I'm less annoyed by React needing a framework than I am being told which frameworks I must use.
IIS rocks
21:10 React leveraging the Greedy Method
Solid.js
my only real complaint about react is that theyve been phasing out class components and convinced the industry that functional is the only way it should be used but the hooks workarounds make the control flow so bloated for more complex tasks and it ends up being less readable . how is useEffect , useMemo , useCallback , use this ,use that use everything so much more friendly then simple constructers or onMount and callbacks in state . I suppose if use/setState had callbacks/promisses then I could look past everything else functional components bloat .
its crap. OOP is so much better, but its like this soy dev js boot camp mentality where they can just get away with tossing around disorganized spaghetti code crap and claiming that its functional programming.
switch to Angular 😊
node URL parser shoutout
Prime just wants to write go so he like htmx.
EXPOSED
7:15 OMG, people don't keep up with React news and think that when RSC were introduced for the third time that was the first time 🤦
Js thrives because of DX. React will slowly fade away if DX is not fixed.
Hi CZcams.
Bye stranger!
Hi stranger.
The future is jQuery
The author should go with Angular. Because he want a "default official" React framework...
Ive been listening to people talking about React for years. I still have no idea what it basically does. No one ever talks about it in concrete terms. It's always spoken about in abstract terms.
Prime can hate on React as much as he wants, but without React, this show would be Prime s.
I get the impression Prime has not been responsible for the architectural direction of a large scale, modern front end application. Maybe just a drifter through Netflix's big projects, and then some smallish internal tools projects.
What if the browser itself is the wrong tool?
So take this kind of thought process into consideration: from one perspective at least, the purpose of a web application is to present the state of a database to a user, and allow the user to manipulate that database. This really isn't what a web browser is built to do though. One example of a system that was from the ground up built to do this that comes to mind is POS systems. Their entire purpose was to allow a limited access to manipulating a database. And until recently, they didn't run in a browser. Another example were the earlier days of apps on phones. Nowdays they are basically just web browsers for the most part, but before that they had the exact same problem and approached it without reaching for a browser to sovle it. I'm not saying these are good models to copy, for the most part both have died out today, but it does show that there are other approaches that don't involve a web browser at all.
yeah but its not really just that
Why not just let meta-frameworks take care of the server component. Who knows, with technological advancements we might even go back to SPA's just because it will make things easier again. Server rendered HTML is just a lukewarm affair to be completely honest. Yes i do understand its benefits, i do understand its faster and more secure but SPA with a server serving json is just clean and easy to wrap your head around.
Django + htmx + Alpine ❤
If you are taking seriously to be a frontend, you should choose angular.