30 Years After DOOM - What's Next for FPS? (ft. John Romero)
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- Danny explores the 30 years of first person shooter evolution since DOOM, and explores what the future of the genre may be - if it even exists anymore.
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
2:02 - The 90's FPS Renaissance
9:00 - The FPS evolution in the 2000's
14:08 - "FPS" is no longer a genre
18:28 - What's next for FPS?
20:50 - Conclusion
Produced by Secret Tape for A16Z GAMES
Hosted, Written & Edited by Danny O'Dwyer
Additional Filming by Jeremy Jayne
Motion Graphics by Pica (www.pica.me.uk/vivapica)
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They didn’t mention MMOFPS games like Planetside / Planetside 2. As a longtime player of both, I think those concepts are still fresh and relatively unexplored.
30 years after DOOM, not even DOOM is dead.
myhouse.wad is something else...
Doom is eternal.
Not even Can It Run DOOM? is dead.
@@Vesperitisidk DOOM Eternal is pretty well optimized
Doom > Star Wars. Yes.
Danny O'Dwyer has been my favorite gaming journalist for a long time. This channel and No Clip are my absolute favorite gaming related channels on youtube. Can anyone reccommend me any other similar or really good gaming related channels? I need more!
Hearing that more people would play Apex Legends than Titanfall 3 really hurts
Phenomenal work. I've been following Danny for 10 years by total accident and I've loved everything he's ever worked on.
OK this Slim guy repeatedly saying there's only 2 5v5 competitive games (LoL & CS) is pissing me off. LoL developers smh. (love the episode, thanks Danny
They aren't "dead" they're just uninspired now. With exceptions, like Titanfall 2.
I tend to not care about competitive multiplayer FPS games, because it doesn't take that long before it all feels the exact same as the last one - now, a good single-player FPS is very rare, which is a shame, because Half-Life 2 was my introduction to PC gaming and very few games even come close to that game's single player experience. There's still plenty of life left in the FPS, but there's only so much one can do to make another military shooter game feel somehow different than the last dozen.
Did you played Cyberpunk?
These videos never mention Ultima Underworld, which came out two weeks before Wolfenstein-3D. It blew everyone away and was wayy more 3D than Wolf was (although not as fast paced)
Wolfenstein 3D's engine was actually inspired by a demo of Ultima Underworld. Reportedly, after seeing the demo at a software convention in 1990, Carmack claimed he could make one that ran faster (and then did)
Who doesn’t love the grandfather of immersive sims
If most videos don't mention it ig it wasnt influential enough, it doesn't matter if it was first at release for two weeks if most people played wolf first, then wolf is what inspired the next gen
Wow crazy to hear the words "I love Ghost Recon: Breakpoint" come out of John Romero's mouth. Really great episode and all great guests! Danny is the man.
I too loved Breakpoint. One of the few games I've finished in a long time. And that's despite all the bugs and issues that game had. The design was just that good.
Finally! Someone else who loves playing Ghost Recon Breakpoint !!
"It's not nostalgia - it's what whe people grew up with." - Dude, that's NOSTALGIA! 🤣
3:05 has this guy never heard of magazines??
This
How can one be so...idk, pretentious? Or is he just dumb?
@@tydendurler9574 maybe his parents didn't buy him magazines or they weren't available where he lived. Or he was too young to know that there were magazines.
I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but dammit it's really hard to find believable excuses!
PS: Curious take by Dave Oshry on how you got to know about games in the 1990s. Germany had a wealth of computer magazines, specalized on games, even back in the 1980s. Can't imagine any major tech country didn't. Then again he's born in New Zealand.
What's more, by the 1990s, they all started to come with covermount discs and floppies, even for home computers such as the Amiga. The first CDs contained this many demos, as games were still mostly megabytes in size, they could offer both fun and information for weeks themselves. :-)
This
It's like a 12 year old talking about the 90's.
wtf is he on though, why be so off about something?
Why did no one say when they recorded or wrote this "uhm dude...magazines?"???🤔
absolutely nuts to me saying that CS2 "didn't set the world on fire" but then going on to saying "Do you know what did? BattleBit". Like dude. CS2 is #1 player count on steam by a huge margin and has been basically since release, and Battlebit has dropped to an average 24 hour peak of 10-15k.
Well CS2 did simply carry over playbase from CSGO, its not like they needed to set the world on fire
CS2 is missing loads of modes and features that CSGO had , CS2 feels half baked, theres no party modes, theres maps missing. i agree battlebit only has 10k players , its not a popular game contrary to those click bait youtubers would tell you like jackfrags.
@@spankrocketgaming294 and yet it still has #1 on steam 24/7
It's all relative
CS2 is free, Battlebit is paid. If it was free it would have way more players.
Honorable up and coming FPS Mention: "Abiotic Factor" this game is heavily inspired by Half life 1, but with survival game elements.
Lol i saw the clip of folks doing VOIP and seeing the character's mouths flapping in-game. Hilarious.
The reason why people liked the 90s shooters according to this video isn't the reason I liked them. I liked them for the immersion in an alien place, sometimes claustrophobic corridors, with dangers lurking all around. And the story.
So when System Shock came it immediately became my favourite game. It's slow paced, having complex levels and all that. Also, it's putting exploration first and action/combat second, something extremely few games do. So I have to look at completely different genres these days.
How about Jedi Knight Dark Forces 2, had huge levels for the time.
@@GeordiLaForgery I don't know if that's the Jedi Knight game I played (I only played one), and I barely remember that. I guess that speaks a lot about my impression. If it's a linear “corridor“ game, then that's the reason.
@@alexanderhugestrand It was out in 1997. If you try it someday use the mod called Jedi Knight Remastered 3.2.
Have you played Deus Ex 1?
@@BaronVonBiden Yes! I don't remember it though, since it was long ago. Immersive Sim has been a favourite genre of mine.
I didn't want to be "that guy" but I will be "that guy." We didn't have "the internet" back then, but depending on how old you were and what your friends were into, you had access to BBSs (where Doom first came out, as an online distributed shareware) and magazines! Remember those?
Also, on this quote: "It's not because of nostalgia, it's because the people who are growing up, this is what they grew up with." That... is the _definition_ of nostalgia.
Loved the bit with Romero, I only wish there were more of him talking!
Yeah, some weird stuff is being said in this otherwise great video.
Why do that?🤔
Make that "those guys", as I knew I wasn't the only one. What was a great mini-doc, was tarnished by some of the nonsense spouted by Dave Oshry. I'm disappointed, because I expected someone designing Dusk and Gloomwood (I was looking forward to playing both) to be more considerate of what they were saying. It was actually Quake after Duke, and Half-Life after that. "We had no steam reviews". No, we had gaming magazines aplenty, and BBSes to rely on for reviews (which are still available via Google Groups). "You got what you got". I don't understand what that means. I got what I read about and played demos of. The "it's not about nostalgia" followed by the definition of nostalgia was just the icing on the cake. I actually felt like Dave was a shill for Romero's book at multiple points. I also don't think the texture-warping will come back as an aesthetic. It was a bug, not a technical limitation such as low resolution and pixelated assets.
I get what he's saying though. I played Doom first because my uncle bought a new PC and as part of the deal he got the shareware version of Doom. I'd never heard of it before then. I also didn't even know that System Shock existed until years later. It is far easier now to discover new games being released or being developed.
Operation Flashpoint was a game so fussy, so janky, so particular and so difficult - I fell completely in love with it.
I feel the same about STALKER, my dude. The same
@@maskoblackfyre it's a game I really wanted to play at the time but it got lost in the back end of my WoW years and the front end of uni/clubbing years. It's still on my list tho.
@@TheVelvetUnderdog I hear ya. I myself played it on an old crappy PC from 1999. barely running the game but I had to play it
The setting had me hooked ever since I saw the first trailer.
As far as Uni, I flukned some exams because I played it too much lol
@@maskoblackfyre fair, rad and good. I watched a Civvie11 run through recently and it only got me more excited for it.
@@TheVelvetUnderdog OF was an incredible military sim disguised as a game. Not even sure how to describe STALKER (openworld fps with lite-rpg elements?). Both really amazing games.
For me I loved System Shock, Deus Ex, some Hardcore RPG's like fallout (1-2, NV), baldurs gate (1-2-3 :D ) and RTS/TBS like Homeworld, Alpha Centauri. Games had alot of creativity and innovation which really slowed down in late 2000s through 2010s. I think it is coming back though with indie scene, modding, etc...
The history of video games happened so fast in the 80's and 90's and it's so cool to see. Today we have new technology and game ideas coming from all over the place, but back in the day a few guys could alter the path of the industry. Sadly, we'll never live those days again. But gladly, today we have more opportunities than ever to join the games industry.
I've grown up during the 90's and became a game developer in 2012, and in just 10 years the landscape has changed so damn much.
I've been creating written content about games for years and now also video content.
It's the dilemma: the big challenge today is being discovered. There are only a few platforms showcasing only a handful of games at a time on screen - Steam, App Store, etc. On the other hand, there's more accessible technology for all, like Unreal and Unity, and online game courses for you to learn everything -- in my starting days we had just a handful of CD-ROM courses and maybe something useful on CZcams.
Time flies.
I love the prediction of halo likes coming up soon; I’ve never zoomed out on the trends but it makes a lot of sense. 90s kids are making games now, so we’re getting 90s ps1 vibes. A decade from now the new innovative indies on the scene will be 2000s kids, so yeah they’ll follow their own childhood bliss
a messed up video, fps means first person shooter, it still is the go to genre of games. do not try to confuse and water down the meaning.
it simply mean first person camera with guns. the most solid genre there is.
apex legends have the technical lead at the moment, solid like the old quake 3 arena and counterstrike 1.6 with another level of map and teamplay.
Great video. Its really cool seeing 90s FPS make a huge comeback. I grew up with Half-Life, CS, TFC, Doom, Quake and the whole shabang but seeing thst flavor of game popup again 25-30 years later is fresh and new again in an industry thats just copy and paste. Its gonna be exciting when Halo, CoD and even Half-Likes start to show up more including my own HL1 game down the road
boomer bros we were lucky. we got to witness breakneck changes, free multiplayer mods and add-ons were expected, physical copies were still king and you could even buy your fav PC magazine once a month to catch up with everything
I'm worried about single player FPS games.Lets wait for Id Software's next project.
All of these are fantastic. Danny and team do awesome work and it’s smart of a16z to raise their profile in this space this way
_Dave Oshry is wrong._ We had plenty of ways to learn about games back then. Magazines - PC Gamer, NextGen, EGM et al. We also could go to the multitude of stores for PC games - Babbages, Egghead, Electronics Boutique, & eventually CompUSA. We had a TON of places to glean information.
- ex game developer
Yeah but it's nothing compared to now. I played games all through the 90s and missed so mant titles. Just like Dave I didn't know about System Shock or Deus Ex until years later.
@@keithprice1950 The comparison to "now" is irrelevant. You can compare an ant to an asteroid, sure, but it doesn't mean the ant does not exist.
Loved this episode. Amazing series guys! We need a dedicated episode with Dave Oshry alone! He is an industry scholar, he is intelligent and is freaking HILARIOUS!
No reviews? Tf is my guy on about you never buy a gaming mag bro?
I don't know, the double-barreled shotgun from Doom 2 has something to do with why I like FPS games.
That "thhumppff!!" is so satisfying
Really fresh documentary style content. Been following Danny since Gamespot, great stuff keep it up!
Rise of the Triad (RoTT) was made on a modified Wolfenstein engine -- not Ken Silverman's Build engine!
Yep! Originally intended to be Wolf 3D 2 until id pulled the plug & it morphed into ROTT.
Does anyone know what game is being shown at 4:19 in the video? The one with the cool art style where they are in the vent holding the lighter?
Being able to revisit all entries in the Doom, Quake and Half Life franchises in VR now is nothing short of mindblowing
This is the thing I'm looking to the future for. I'll be very interested to see if VR can go wireless, good quality, and light weight. Because games like Half Life Alyx, and for me Into the Radius make for some really fascinating experiences. Into the Radius being game that, if made a more curated experience, could be seen as a bit of a Stalker in VR. There's a lot of VR stuff out right now that feels like walking before other future games can soar. But it'll largely be tech dependent, we'll see how it goes in the future.
@@SashaMinkh Yeah. I think the biggest hurdles on the way to mass adoption of VR tech are a) physical space requirements for room-scale games and b) marketing, i.e. communicating what playing in VR is like without letting someone actually experience it first hand
I think weight and price are not going to be as big of an issue. Provided that the marked won't dry out due to lack of investment
@A16ZGAMES where's the intro music from? it's sickkk
13:26 that was the biggest critical hit I have ever got from a youtube video
I'm totally down for some Half-life and Halo inspired 'boomer shooter' equivalents from the indie scene! That's my golden era of FPS design so I'm looking forward to seeing what developers can do with it.
Great stuff keep it coming boys
Some of the core fundamental reasons why fps are so rewarding to play is firstly the perspective you are viewing the game space, the constant positive feedback loop you get playing them. Shooting targets, successfully hitting and stopping targets is so much fun, flow is easier to achieve somewhat playing fps. Add in great visuals and sound - additionally add a good story and characters within a believable world boom - you have the makings of a fun and incredibly engaging game.
Great vid, as always.
Honestly I'm glad that the trend, that brought by games like COD and Halo, of having a regenerative health (Therefore encouraging a cover-taking passive playstyle) and 2 weapons limits that got the genre stale during mid 2000s to mid 2010s, is dying out. Thanks to ID Software (again) and many boomer-shooter indies, we see the resurgence of fast-paced FPSes that more lean on aggressive playstyle!
Amazing how far games had progressed in just the 5 years between Doom and Half-Life.
Maybe I’m jaded, but by comparison the last ten years have felt like living in a desert. Lol
Love this video. Keep up the great work.
Calling Bungie "those Marathon guys" is the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I really wish someone would remake nolf or make a game with similar humor.
Great video.
I wish someone in the mainstream would finally talk about STAKER GAMMA (or Anomaly). This is where I get my own single player FPS kicks these days.
Yes it's technically "just a mod" but it's so well made and transformative that it's basically a "new game", built on the foundations of an old game.
Amazing video! As usual so well put together with great insights, specially from veteran developers! Thank you!
To me it seems that not even MENTION Cyberpunk 2077 in a list like this it's kind of a snub... Cyberpunk is like the perfect blend of great immersive storytelling with fast paced high octane combat of hero shooters all this in a open world setting.
I really love your video essays.
Great episode! 3 FPS games that defined my childhood: Dark Forces, Quake, Half-Life (CS, DoD, TFC, etc.),
I am nostalgic for the old school FPS and the communities that were formed around them... I am itching for more modern nods to games like early Half-Life, Quake 3, PlanetSide, Tribes. Counter-Strike 1.3-1.6 + mIRC + Shoutcast radio stations were very formative for me early on, and these communities built the foundation for modern esports.
To be honest, when I was younger I had much larger hopes and expectations for where online FPS games and communities around them would be in the future, after 20 years of technological advancement. Like, why aren’t we playing a live service Half-Life 3 type game with regular releases of episodic content? Or a PlanetSide-like MMOFPS with large-scale shared experiences enabled by 20 years of tech advancements? Is it not possible? Games like Fortnite are doing it, but I will never play it because I am not a young person, and most live service games do not see long-term success which ends up alienating players.
I've always thought of Re4 as the father of TPS because after the success of that game I remember every game had a third person perspective as a shooter... And it's funny how we are driven by reviews, I've not played FC6 because of that but listening to Romero saying he enjoys open world games makes me remember I do love them as well but I'm stopping myself from playing a game based on reception rather than curiosity and my personal taste... Great video by the way makes me feel like I'm half way on my cycle now...
The importance of Resi 4 can't be overstated but when you think about its interesting how there wernt many Resi 4 clones but a *ton* of Gears clones.
8:56 Pray 2006 awesome game !
You talking about the cycle indie games are on made me realize that, if the game I'm working on works out, it might come out at exactly the right time for a metroid prime-like. It's likely to end up similar to both Metroid Prime 2 and Halo.
1:20 A lot of us S.T.A.L.K.E.R. fans are proud gun-nutters.
1:34 Some games (or mods like S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Anomaly) allow you to switch perspective between first and third.
3:09 He didn't mention 'Blood'. Btw, the third chapter of 'Dusk' draws inspirado from S.T.A.L.K.E.R. with its industrial aesthetic.
6:14 It's also inspired movies like Manborg which also draws inspirado from Empire Pictures and Full Moon movies.
9:04 / 18:27 Zoners, represent!
9:15 I've often wondered if that title is an homage to the song of the same name by Oingo Boingo.
12:47 We S.T.A.L.K.E.R. aficionados have been playing our favorite series (and its mods) for years, but I get the impression he means something else.
20:15 That's already a thing except the term is simplified to "Half-like."
8:40 - small correction: Wolf3D and completely use raycasting, not ray tracing. Totally different thing. The former has to do with figuring out geometry in a cheap way, whereas the latter has to do with rendering a scene with realistic lighting and reflections. Easy mistake, as they're similar sounding, even if they're very different.
The best of the best of that era, doesn't get the credit it deserves with most gamers or developers. What game may that be? Why, Serious Sam of course.
love your documentaries
You had me at ft. John Romero
There were video gaming magazines in the 90s, dear Mr Oshry and they were telling you all those things, were you not reading them?
Ngl, I miss the 7th generation. While many complained about every other game being an FPS that was either brown or gray, I feel that the pendulum's swung too far and overcorrected. Now there's not many AAA single player FPS games and every game looks like it was designed by the company that makes Skittles.
It's not merely technology leading to so many different types of games. It's also the market itself. And how risk-pushing or indeed averse that is.
See how in between the mid 2000s to mid 2010s, a few big publishers and money men held the grip over the entire industry. Until crowdfunding, digital distribution et all saved the day. Some of that came natural: Higher costs of producing games meant that fewer risky ones as well as fewer games in general were being made. In the Triple-A space in particular this continutes to this day, with fewer and fewer studios at all able to do them -- and dev cycles increasing with each generation.
Sometimes, there's curious overlap. Like Larian currently. Initially following market trends as else they didn't find funding with each of their first Divinity games, they went sort of independent with Original Sin. That lead to a type of game exctinct from the triple-A space making a reapparance. Somewhat modified, yes. But BG3 exists. I'm sure if somebody were to make Half Life 3 today, it would be smash just as well. Thing is, nobody is making it.
Amazing video, i enjoyed it thoroughly, thank you. I love fps rpg games so much. Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallou 3 are all my favorite games.
VR is the next arena, hate to say it. 8 years and I only just got an HMD, and I have to eat all the sentiments and reservations I had.
The desire for story based FPS is definitely making a comeback because the average gamer age is 30+, just too old to want to compete against all the sweaty kids and teenagers who talk crap with online FPS. We already did that when we were that age, got the glory and moved on. But a story can always be enjoyed by any skill level, can be game saved to be returned to at any time because real life emergencies happen, whilst not be attacked by vocal kids who take online gaming way too seriously. This is a market that's been ignored for way too long yet it's where it all began.
Did you really call Rise of the Triad a Build engine game?
I literally just scoured the comments to see if someone would call this out... It was wolf3d engine... Also he called wolf3d ray traced??
Wait, isn't ADACA already the first Indie "Half-Life-like"?
such a good Doc!
The most mind blowing takeaway from this video is that John Romero _loved_ (the widely panned) Ghost Recon Breakpoint. 🤯 🤷♂️
Maybe worth a second look??!
Oh my god this is the 2nd time in a week i've seen someone mention Operation Winback, i'm so happy.
Gosh, this takes me back to the evolution of games when we didn't have all of this technology and graphics that we have today. We came up during an era where just 16 bit graphics were considered crazily awesome!!
Next for me is VR. It's reminds me of the first time I ever played a game.
@10:18 I personally think that it was Resident Evil 4 (masterpiece btw) that ignited the 3rd person boom in the mid 2000's... but Gears of War was also pretty good back in the day.
what is the name of this game 4:18
Wow crazy good video, very interesting
Danny, awesome. I still have your awesome Tribute Video to Unreal. i am not sure, 15-20 years ago ? Great Work, hey and you look great.
wait what happened to NoClip?
Is that Ace Programmer John Romero?
The original Operation Flashpoint deserves more love from the documentary and retrospective people.
A loosely scripted mini documentary leaving me with more questions about the current state of the gaming scene than before, sparking my curiosity again. Thanks Danny
Dave Oshry has a great sense of humor, but the really interesting stuff was said by Slim. His whole approach to game design is fundamentally next level for the industry and likely will be a great predictor of what's popular in gaming for the next decade.
Thank you, i loved it!
I think one of the main reason for the lack of FPS is motion sickness, I may be wrong but it is a point of concern, no?
Really love this series.
So true, im itching for Am2 looking games to pop up again : D
20:43 - I remember when when games late in the console lifespan (like Starfox) had these extra chips on the cartridge... they brought so much inovation...
Is it possible to put a CURRENT TECH chip on a N64 cartridge, where this new chip runs the N64 ROMS much faster and just delivers the image to the console?
FPS Genre will never die! We will never be turned to zombies playing LOL all day and night!
What game is that retro inspired mafia shooter?
What’s the game at 15:25? 🤔
grayzone warfare is another game that looks like its going to be an interesting addition to the genre
anger foot mentioned!!!! 21:45
I knew Dave Oshry was cool. But trashing on Skibidi Toilet has just elevated him a bit more in my view.
Guess I'll be the first nerd to ask why Danny called Wolfenstein 3D "ray traced", then?
PLAY SQUAD AND SQUAD 44!!!
MILSIMS... the future of FPS gaming. and the comms and teamwork, is the future of gaming as a whole!
Guys should try midair2 its about to release. Way better then T3. Former t1 shifter player here. Mid air 2 is completely free. Amazing movement and physics though its only LT atm
I wish fast paced shooters came back like quake, unreal and TF2
Yes, what's next is the Indy Scene, the biggest and best things to come
+1 for Thief. Scared the shit out of me.
Amazing video. I loved the conversation. However, in order to understand something as wonderful as Skibidi toilet, you need to have much higher wisdom 😌
Battlebit Remastered exploded onto the scene and died before the smoke had cleared
Hi dave!
Hitting targets by standing still are no shooters. No strafing no gaming.
So games like Time Crisis arent Shooters? xD
@@tydendurler9574 Light gun shooters, or gallery shooters as some like to call them. Then there stuff like shoot 'em ups and run 'n guns etc. So many shooters!
Fun video. My only comment is what is your perspective on arguably the biggest of all FPS games over the last 10 years or so? That being Minecraft. And really how the mod scene drives it and evolves it far more than Mojang does. What are your thoughts there?
“Right now the market will always choose Apex Legends over Titanfall 3”
You shut your damn mouth! You’re hurting me!
Amazing video, very well done