Sony a7 IV Hack?! - Full Frame 4K60 (No Crop) Workaround Tested
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 22. 08. 2024
- Testing the Sony a7 IV workaround for getting an uncropped 4K60 image when recording externally by upscaling 1080p. Does it really work?
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#sonya74 #4k60 #fullframe
You fancy CZcamsrs and same day turnarounds ;) Took your advice and was working on a closer inspection of 4k or if it was an upscaled 1080? Great video from you guys! Loved it. Much respect. Thanks Gerald. Chris Helton CHphotovideo
What the fuck did you just say?
@@Justin-uc8sc He said: "You fancy CZcamsrs and same day turnarounds ;) Took your advice and was working on a closer inspection of 4k or if it was an upscaled 1080? Great video from you guys! Loved it. Much respect. Thanks Gerald. Chris Helton CHphotovideo"
Wait u guys don't know how to get a 4k60p full frame on the a7iv? Easy , wait for it. This actually works and u already knew about it. Here it does. , Speedbooster + canon ef lense = done, a 16mm ff lense would be ff but of course its not native. What will blow your mind even more is that if you don't use crop mode and use a speed booster you can get extra light for the subject and be able to drop the iso
@@rockmusicvideoreviewer896 hahaha
I love seeing you both in the same video, because your enthusiasm on camera tech can be seen clearly on your faces.
I'm changing my channel name to "Inspector Gadget"
inspecter? i hardler know âer!
Iâll show myself out.
That was great! Also your video production level on product shots is second to none, not even MKBHD with his robots, cinema lens, etc ...
Better would be âGadget Inspectorâđ
@@AndazVlogs beat me to it!!
⊠thx for sharing, you are great content creator! đđ» Your Edelkrone equipment is fantastic, best solution for motion control in a studio environment - perfect! đđ»
the sensor cant read 4k60p full frame, the end.
its not software crippling, the sensor simply cant read the whole sensor 60 times a second.
A7IV boys felt vindicated for not going a7s3 and then let down all in one full swoop lol.
People who bought the A7IV literally dont care about the crop. I promise you.
Doesn't matter, the A7iv is still sharper than the A7S3 below 12800 ISO. But rolling shutter though... man the A7iv is a complete letdown.
I only wanted a 4k 24fps camera with flip out screen and good autofocus :)
All I could afford was the IV, the a7s3 is like 3,500 with a lens.
â@@professionalpotato4764 yh its pretty bad,think its even worse than the a7iii
This is great! My A7IV got delivered today so I was really excited when I saw the title. Thanks, Gerald and CHphotovideo for testing such things. Great video
So does it work or not.
Dude, I don't usually comment on yt vids. But I felt I needed to say how I feel. You have to be one of, if not the best for reviews on camera gear. You go so indepth and give such detail it blows my mind. If I ever want to know about something I hit your channel first. You're damn good at what you do man. You've came a long way and I've been here for most of the ride. Just wanted to drop a comment and tell you how great your vids are man. Keep up the great work. I'll be a sub as long as you keep making vids. #longlivegeraldundone
You should try out 1080p in aps-c mode with clear image zoom on. It does give a 2x crop but the 1080 that comes out of it has no discernible difference between 4k. Itâs crazy. I feel like the A7IV has so many secrets that have yet to be revealed haha.
I have heard of this secret⊠I will definitely give this a shot.. A lot of hidden gems but it might be Sonyâs way of getting around the limitations of the cameraâŠWithout actually stating it.. and I also wonder how it would look in HDMI only output mode
Great video Gerald. Glad iphonedo was able to help. Turned out great.
Always appreciate informative videos like these! Based on how severe the rolling shutter is on the A7IV, I had my doubts that the 4K60 crop was some sort of snake oil artificial limitation. However, it's nice to see these sorts of ideas being investigated even if the outcome isn't all that unexpected!
''Based on how severe the rolling shutter is on the A7IV'' all the other FF camera in that price bracket have similar rolling shutter in 4K30 but on the A7iv you can get really good rolling shutter if you shoot in APSC mode.
@@JetBen555 If we're talking value, the Sigma fp, Panasonic S1 and S5, the Nikon Z7 and Blackmagic Pocket all offer the possibility of RAW video at that price point. I don't purchase a full frame camera to shoot cropped APS-C!
@@JonPais I don't really see the point of your comment, I was not talking about value at all. Just pointing out the *fact* that other Full Frame camera at that price point have similar rolling shutter as the A7iv in Full Frame 4K30. (despite the fact that they all have lower MP sensor)
But I will bite
You need an external recorder to get ''Black Magic Raw'' (which is not Raw) on these camera ... soo how can u even talk about ''Value'' when you actually need to invest several hundred dollars more AND carry a Fking big a$$ monitor all the time to get additional features from your shitty camera with terrible rolling shutter in full frame 4K ?!
Also, comparing the Blackmagic ''Pocket'' camera to the A7iv is just laughable. It's a huge beast, it dies in 30 minutes unless you mount a huge V mount battery. The footage don't even look that good and doesnt offer much in term of flexibility in post (compared to SLog3 10bit), it has no stabilization or auto focus, its really not comparable, outside of the price.
@@JetBen555 Sure, Ben. Few other cameras at that price point have as severe rolling shutter as the Sony. Few other cameras at that price point lack RAW capability. When you talk about price point, you are talking about value. Look it up, Ben.
@@JonPais No, price point mean similar Price and that's all.
This video is the perfect balance of entertainment and information
Saw this being talked about on Facebook today and thought, âlet me beat Gerald to the punch making the videoâ and, well, here I am, you beat me to the punch đđ
The A7 IV sensor is too slow to do 50/60 fps, the readout time was around 24 ms when I measured it. This still means the crop could be reduced to around 1.2-1.25x in 50p and 1.25-1.3x in 60p but that's up to Sony engineers to maybe do it as a firmware update
They can squeeze some speed if they use pixel binning but 7K is not the resolution for that... They will get 3.5K 60p.
@@SimeonKolev true and that would also be better than what they offer now
max 41.67 frames per second if youd do a full frame readout
What's the readout time in APS-C crop?
It would be nice to have the option to choose between 1.5x crop 60 and 1.
The "alright I'm done" from Edo was awesome haha
It's just a 1080 binned sensor read. The Image processor is only getting 1080 raw read from the sensor A/D converters. This is an "on-sensor" photosite bin. So there is nothing that the image processor can do about it.
Gerald out here using a full ballin ass Video Rig just to prop up his phone. Madman.
So True....đ
Really interested to see your take on the R5c.
You could have also compared it to 4K30, as thatâll give 4K resolution full frame for the test purposes.
Was surprised they didnât do this, seems most obvious
It's always awesome to see these collabs! Kudos to you both for getting to the bottom of this
Thanks for doing this test! I have an A7IV, and I'm to lazy to test this... you don't have one, and still figured out a way to test it! And iPhonedo is awesome, so thanks to him too!
This proves how minute the actual differences are when you get to that level of clarity. We still donât have any largely available 8K TVâs available so much if this is kinda pointless. I understand that many are recording now, for the future technology.
Was a bit surprised when I saw this video title, but completely unsurprised by the result/conclusion. Thanks for keeping us in the loop!
I guess what we can take away from this⊠is the the 1080 they gave us isnât that bad, definitely got an upgrade that we should be happy with đ
I don't have the camera and I'm not interested in the topic, but it was so much fun to see you two in the same video (again). Cheers guys! :)
Both of you guys are hugely underrated
I was hoping this would actually work! But thanks for doing the tests!
great stuff! love the rigor with which you test this stuff!!
Great Video. This builds a better community, it's all about trial and error. I like it when people don't shame others for trying out and investigating things, because that's how you learn!
iPhonedo is the best Sony reviewer.
For those non-software engineers out there calling this a conspiracy/coverup/hidden feature...sorry no, it's just a bug in the software mislabeling the actual video mode.
Nice work A team
Gerald and iPhonedo's chemistry...just as great as Gerald and yo yo Josh Yep. I want more collabs with iPhonedo
Loving the positive vibes and especially IPhonedo's accent, please tell me he has some minions!
I love Iphonedo his B-roll / product shots are incredible
Great video great test can't wait to get the a7iv
Love the ending of this video. Positive vibes.
Gerald just crushed this guys dreams
C'mon Gerald, you know what we want... We want 2018 Gerald back with a review of the OM-1 and the GH6, please.
Since you mentioned HD exported in 4K on CZcams. Funfact: If you put HD 24/30fps in a timeline and exported it in HD 48/60 it gets a better codec and bitrate from YT than 4K 24/30. Sadly nobody seems to know that.
That's because YT makes this stuff a dicking nightmare to figure out, for reasons unknown even to them
What about 4K48 versus 4K24?
If you upload something in 4K to CZcams, it will get encoded to AV1 and VP9.
1080p and lower gets encoded to H.264 and VP9.
The audio gets encoded to AAC and opus. Opus usually gets served along with VP9 / AV1 video.
@@Knowbody42 beautiful worth info, explain us more pls
@@Knowbody42 I've uploaded 1080p60 and 1440p60, only the 1440p60 uploads get a VP9 encode (AVC comes first, VP9 after some time) for 1080p60 streams.
Ten minutes of 4k30 is 10GB..... Why are people trying to shoot 4k60? You're not likely producing anything that "ACTUALLY" needs that much. The files would be outrageous in the long run.
Resolution and frame rate dont determine file size. Bitrate does. A 4k video could be 35Mbps or it could be 4500Mbps. Thats what determines file size.....
that being said, a lot of us get paid and use 4k60 all the time. Stop talking out your *sshole buddy..... just because you dont use it doesnt mean you need to get your undies in a bunch.
My a7 IV arrives on Monday. As far as I'm concerned I'm totally ok with the 4K60 in Crop mode because if I going to shoot video I generally use my Fujinon MK len (is only APC) that parafocol and no breathing. Hey, I'm 62 and you need a cine lens to shoot the video I shoot. I love that all of these creative people make DSL glass work but it doesn't work for me. WHat the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks...LOL
This is like the A7s tweak that gives you 4K in crop mode (clear image zoom from full frame) :) but kinda reversed...
In the end I think that you better shoot 1080 in camera and upscale with Topaz or something to 4K, because this 4K60p tweak does not work.
The question is whether we do 4K 30 oversampled from 7 k and slow down 2x via Topaz Video Enhanceâs Chronos feature or take 1080p 60 and use Topaz Video Enhanceâs upscaling high quality Artemis algorithm instead. One is more detailed footage but artificially slowing it down is both time consuming and may have artifacts. The latter is less processing, the camera did take 60 real frames a second so no artifacting, but footage may not be as detailed. HmâŠ.
Appreciate you guys looking into this for us!
I think the most interesting thing is that people struggle to judge if a video clip is 1080p or 4K when filming a static test chart(!) with perfect focus, lightning and pixel peeping the two images side by side.
This is wholesome, nerdy/informative content. Cheers!
Dang I was really excited I'd be able to use my a7iv as a 50p b cam without crop! Good test
Awesome collab, fun video. Thanks, both.
Excellent work yâall! Thanks for looking into this and sharing.
what is the dynamic range of this camera in 4k 50 or 60p crop mode.
I have seen youtubers like matti haapoja and Chris Brockhurst say that the sony 10-18 lens is an amazing lens for sony in crop mode like the a7iv.
I am very interested in knowing the dynamic range of this a7iv in apsc mode and knowing how much I lose vs the full frame
I doubt that Sony will do a firmware update for 4k 60 as the camera can overheat even in 4k 30, so there is no solution and I don't see any rumors about an up and coming A7v.
I just discovered this today for live-streaming application ⊠Iâm going to use this semi 4K setting for all my live streams⊠A note of caution though, if you are using a 4K pro 60 capture card in the #3 or last slot pci slot on your motherboardâŠThis will not work because the bandwidth is only 4x on older z490 chipset motherboards.. Youâll need to use the pcie slot next to your Gpu with live streaming.. If using this method on an older 10th Gen Intel or Z490 chipset, youâll end up using half of the lanes (8x) that your graphics card is using.. Since I added a dual fan rtx 4070 12Gig, I had no issues as long as Iâm using it as my streaming PC to stream a Live DJ set on twitch.. For gaming this may not be an issue since most gamer use 1080p for their streams but I would assume your games would look better if you are gaming on a 4K rig⊠But for zoom and corporate live steaming of DJ sets, The 4k60p setting works well even when streaming on zoom.. Itâs night and day differenceâŠAnd the best part is that the camera never overheats if using a dummy battery without internal recording and only feels warm to the touch.
Is the 4k output to a ninja V the same downsampled 7k from the sensor? If not
Then maybe thatâs why 4k 60 cropped internal looked better than 4k ninja v?
what skin grip do you have in the camera?? that handle texture looks wild.
Here's my question, why does the crop matter? Just use a wider lens and you'll have less chance of vignette and less barrel distortion issues...
Iphonedo is such a beaut! Subscribed.
Thank you for the video guys!!!
Thank you for video đ
this became such a good mood âĄ
Wow, excellent take on this!
8:24 When Gerald already posts the 2nd video in a month
Does the Ninja V unlock ProRes Raw on the A7IV??? I NEED TO KNOW!!!
Hearing iPhonedo saying âalright Iâm doneâ was epic đ
I don't own an a7 but I'd watch these two talk about wallpaper for an hour
For live streaming at 4k60 having it in-body is nice! That said, i'd rather obv have real 4k60 hdmi out... Struggling to find a good option for this
I feel like if there was a hack like "magic lantern" for Sony, you could easily push 4k60fps on this camera!
Friendly, funny, honest! Undone that dudes test! Nice!
The smile that this video title bought me
Gerald is so undone , he forgot to review the
OM SYSTEM OM-1
Not claiming clairvoyance here, but this one was pretty easy to call all the way through. From the "I bet it's some twiddly Ninja-V thing"...to "not possible, A7IV's sensor is too slow, which is why there's a crop and why rolling shutter is prevalent in the first place." Cool video though. I'll have to check out that other channel.
We love iphonedo, he is a test master
That ending was great. đ
âIâm Gerald Undone.
My output is G U Nits.â
Cool stuff! Great teamwork on figuring this out. And yeah: for me 4k60 matters. I use it a lot when filming. And I also like shooting wide. So having no crop helps. Because I need to bring/buy less lenses. Still a happy fuji x-t3 shooter.
And your fuji is already aspc ? so its same
Another "hack" I tried at home on the A6400 is set the camera at 4k24, and hdmi out as 50/60p so I can see UHD 59.94 signal on the recorder. The image quality is the same as internal 4K, HOWEVER, it is not ture 60p signal. The camera just wrap the 24p sign into 60p then send it to the recorder. It's very visible when slow the 60p footage down to 24. In conclusion, the sensor can ONLY use one readout mode. And aparendtly, 4K24 at full frame is all we can get from the sensor.(Maybe we can dream about 7K24 external someday??)
For what it's worth, if you set the HDMI to 60p, you'll get a little less monitoring latency which will make the external monitor feel more responsive.
Nicely done!
This is the video we are waiting for it.
This is why I use micro43. I was hoping GH6 was getting 4K60 with PDAF to dual SD, but they skipped PDAF and ended dual SD. So maybe the OM-1 is an option going forward. As my G9's AF is bad.
No dual recording on the OM-1
@@kifley19 what do you mean surely the OM-1 records that 4k60 h265 10bit 4:2:0 to both se uhs-2 cards at the same time.. right..
I'm confused, 4k60 on m43 only happens because of the heavy crop... You can't do anything on m43 without a heavy crop
Properly debunked. I can always depend on Undone and iPhonedo getting down to the truth. I love these collaborations. They're always so much fun.
Hello,
Great video! Just a question about your Sony A7IV on your left. Is it a dummy battery connected to the camera ? If yes, is it a good solution for alimentation ? and for overheating ? There isn't problem using it ? Wish brand are you using ? Thanx!
If you had to buy a hybrid camera today.
A1, R5C, R3 or Z9
A1 would actually be my favorite at this point but the tiny cards:(
I guess you use the atomos in the studio but this isnât really the best option if you want a small setup for run and gun shooting.
I think I prefer the R5 to the R5C. I don't see the R5C as an upgrade. It's more of a sidegrade, with some more video features, but less other kinds of features.
I put one of those copper heatsinks from Kolari Vision in my R5, and that does a lot to prevent overheating when doing video.
@@Knowbody42 youâre a knowbody!
Thanks:)
Great investigation. Actually still makes me want the A7IV which might sound mental but the reason is, the upscale still looks good
A74 is absolutely legendary
Thank you for this oneâ€ïž
That was the same thing I was thinking , the same method when upscale a 1080p footage to a 4k rendering on PP.
How does the A7IV preform with the Atomos Ninja V for normal usage settings? I know it doesnât support raw, but can it still record regular pro res in 4K?
The ninja performs wonderfully! Not had the a7IV long enough for a full run but on the surface it's great. It will record 4k 24/30/60, albiet the 60fps is super35. I was recording ProRes 422 in 4k. Both 'true' 4k and the upscaled 4k example in the video.
Ciao Gerald! Did you try to turn off the internal recording and record only on the ninja?
great video thanks! do you know the max output quality over HDMI in stills mode on the a1? i want to take photos while recording to an atomos but don't have the atomos to test yet.
I ran into this by accident with my A7SIII + Ninja V, and trying to use APSC mode/lenses. I did not do as extensive or meticulous testing as you guys have done, but I noticed the difference right away. In short, I just use Clear Image Zoom with my APSC lenses on the A7SIII, as it is a higher quality image than implementing the hack in question.
Hmmm on my fx3 the clear image zoom might as well be a crappy 2x digital zoom like on old web cams..... it makes my footage look horrible. Just god awful..... what am i doing wrong?
@@baqcasanke I can't speak to the FX3, as I don't have one. Clear Image Zoom is definitely a "gimmick" that cannot fully replace the role of lenses. But on my A7SIII it sure beats the APSC mode which is only available at 1080p. To my knowledge there isn't right/wrong about clear Image Zoom. You just use it, and there aren't any additional settings. But as I said, Clear Image Zoom is a gimmick that I would not rely on if I had other choices. It does beat 1080p on my camera.
That's the most expensive iPad stand I saw. Love the vibe of both
If Sony A74 just stick with 24mp, there would not be any crop necessary for 4K60P. 33MP and 24MP doesnât give too much different in terms of the quality but too much has to compromise for the bump in resolution.
the APS-C crop is ~14.2MP, at 4608x3072, so not 24MP
Gerald una consulta, en el modo 4k 60 fps 1.5 crop se ve afectado el rango dinåmico por tener un tamaño mås pequeño de sensor.
Porque si no se ve afectado el rendimiento de rango dinĂĄmico se derriba el mito de que el sensor apsc tiene menos rango que el Full frame
Interesting! Nice video âïž
Never click on a video so fast.
I clicked the thumbnail at 60 frames per second instead of the usual 24p..
I like how Gerald is like "if you just need locked off tripod shots like me you could save $4k per a1 by getting the a7iv" then continues to keep his two a1s and has to ask iphonedo for tests haha. The man wants his $8k footage!
Hi first thanks for your videos in general! So I wish you could make a video about what system or camera or brand you like or enjoy or appreciate most or whatever like some personal preference personal choice or taste from you. Thanks.
Cripple hammer, SONY is worthy now, LOL
0:38 đđđ
Would it assist in the workflow if you upscale in external recorder and sharpen in post to clean up the 4K to look close to real 4K? Just wondering
What a second I thought an over sharpened image gives you worse quality.
You could have just compared it to true FF 4K30 I think, the fps difference is not important to check if it's scaling the frame.
Exactly what I was thinking...The A7iv isnt cropping 4k 60fps to 1080p, its still 4k. Couldnt they just put the camera on a tripod, connect Atomos Ninja V, shoot a short clip in 4k 24fps and shoot another clip 4k 60fps then compare?
I was curious bout this too. But i guess since bitrates change between 4k60 and 4k30 it may not be apples to apples
Amazing !! đđđ