Bergmann's MP35 Submachine Gun: It Feeds From the Wrong Side
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
- The MP35 submachine gun was designed by Theodore Emil Bergmann, the son of the Theodore Bergmann who had manufactured the turn of the century line of Bergmann pistols. Unlike his father, Emil was a firearms designer, and not just a manufacturer. This design was submitted for German military testing in the early 1930s, as the German military began to seriously look for a new SMG. They were initially known as the BMP-32 and BMK-32 (Bergmann Maschinen Pistole and Karabiner; there was both a short barrel and a long barrel version made), and they were produced by Schutz & Larsen of Denmark. In 1934, production moved to the Walther company as the MP34 and MP35, and a number of commercial and international military sales were made, although the German military did not adopt them.
Once World War Two broke out, Walther production capacity was fully occupied with making military arms, and so a license was granted to the Junkers & Ruh company to produce MP35 submachine guns for non-military buyers. These included police units as well as the SS, which was forced to acquire arms from outside the standard Wehrmacht production channels.
Mechanically, the MP35 has a number of interesting features. Most obviously, it feeds from the right side and ejects out the left - virtually all other submachine guns with side-mounted magazines feed from the left. There is no documentation suggesting why Bergmann made this decision, but it was probably due to a different theory of how to most efficiently operate the gun. The MP35 also sort of has a progressive trigger. Firing semiautomatic shots is done by simply pulling the trigger. Firing in fully automatic requires depressing the second lever at the bottom of the trigger, which then allows the trigger to be pulled farther back and full auto fire results. Lastly, the charging handle is set up to replicate the manual of arms of a Mauser bolt action rifle (it is similar in this way to the Mauser G41). While somewhat awkward to use, this does have the benefit of removing the need for an open charging handle slot in the side of the receiver where dirt might enter the action.
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A 1000m tangent sight on a rifle is a tad bit optimistic, but on an SMG it's just hilarious.
He was a "glass is half full" kind of guy...
My theory: the mag doesn't get into the way while holding it like a carabiner and it prevents idiots abusing the mag as a frontgrip
Theu still use it as a grip though.... Look at the mp18 they hold it by the mag
Coming to think about it: why did no gun ever utilise a long recoil mechanism to eject behind the magazine on the same side? Is it safety, reliability or about the rate of cycling?
edi It makes me cringe whenever I see someone using the magazine as a grip
Could be, also from bolt action rifles, people were more used to take the hand of the trigger to perform tasks on the weapon and it might be more intuitive to people that used those rifles before. The charging handle is already like a bolt action rifle.
you know that make way to much sense.
It looks like you could make ten STEN guns for the price of one MP35 bolt.
The gun that Ned Flanders would sell in his Lefty store.
Hybris51129 the Bergtorium.
im not sure ned would sell any kind of firearm ._.
I can see this hanging on the wall of the Leftorium.
Bahahaha
I came here for the guns and I stay for the guns. I got no problem with the thumbnail changes.
The Waffen SS had to fight (no pun intended) to get modern weapons in the first two years of the war. The regular Army leaders thought of the Waffen SS as upstarts with no business being on the front lines. I dont know when it started to equalize but by the last year of the war it had reversed with the SS getting the latest production models before the Wehrmacht did.
The SS was "more loyal" in Hitler's eyes near the end of the war. After the July 20th assassination attempt Hitler issued orders requiring the Heer to abandon their traditional salute and required all officers to reswear their loyalty oath by name. Giving more priority to the SS when it came to supply seems to be along the same lines.
Much to the frustration of the Wehrmacht might I add.
That was partly due to Hitlers weird orders. In 1938, he gave a secret order to specify the role of the SS. In that paper, it's stated that only the SS-Verfügungstruppe, the SS-Officer schools and the Skull-squadrons are to be armed, and that the SS is under command of the Police-Ministry in Peace-time, and that the Minister has to get Equipment and Guns for them, while they get the money from the finance-ministry. That led to alot of additional stages the SS had to get through in order to get weapons, which made it very complicated and hard for them.
As well as Reichsfuhrer-SS Himmler was also Chief of German Police (from 1935). From that date many weapons that were bought 'for the police' were really meant for the SS-VT (as the Waffen-SS was originally known). Letting Himmler bypass Army restrictions on sales of military arms to 'political' organisations like the SS.
Could the reason for the right hand feed be due to the users of the weapon? If the SS and other Govt. ministries were using this weapon in Policing/Guarding facilities it may just be that having the right hand magazine allows the weapon to be 'worn' in a high port position, close to the chest. With a left hand feed this would not be possible, as the magazine would be in the way. The user then has the weapon in a ready to use position, but can use both hands to check papers etc.
Just a thought.
Well actually, that might be a good reason. The Versailles treaty prohibited the german army from using SMGs, but not the police. If you pretend to build it for the police and add a feature like this (which makes sense for a police force but not a military) you're gonna have a pretty neat cover-up story for building your guns anyways and show the finger to the allies. ;)
Perhaps you're intended to keep your left hand in shooting position, tilt the weapon to the left side, and do all loading with the right hand from that position. Maybe a bit counter-intuitive, but it could be worse.
Laird Cummings: That's a good point. I can't help thinking there must have been a specific reason behind the right hand feed design though, after all, the same manufacturer created the MP 18 earlier on (1916) with a left hand feed.
I know all the times I ended up on guard duty I'd have probably got annoyed with the left hand feed when slinging the weapon, hence my 'theory', that it seems to be designed for a non-combat, sedentary/sentry type purpose in mind.
Oh, to be able to quiz the guys behind it now! I guess we'll never really know.
If I recall correctly the AK is meant to be reloaded with the firing hand, so my guess is the rationale for the mp-35 is the same. Allow the shooter to reload with the firing hand, cock the gun with the same hand and as a bonus it's probably easier to keep your gun on target with your support hand.
Reloading with the firing hand would mean you take your hand off the grip/trigger, swap it to your other hand, load the gun and run the action, then swap hands again.
Not saying you're wrong (I honestly don't know enough to say), just saying it doesn't seem likely.
You wouldn't need to swap hands on the reload, that just makes it far too complicated.
Keep left hand on foregrip, and stock in shoulder. Right hand grabs mag, knocks out the old one, rock in the new one, cycle, and back to pistol grip.
It would remove the requirement for the 'AK roll' with the left-handed mag grab.
Would still be odd though.
I fully believe that the tactics of AK reloads were developed long after the guns. Everything on an AK is there for ease of manufacture, maintenance, and _basic_ training (not riflemanship). Speed and accuracy weren't really part of the plan, which isn't to say good work arounds haven't been developed in the last 70 years. I think we've all seen the "Iraqi reload" videos, for better or worse.
With that said, I'm just finishing up an excellent book on the AK (and all full auto development, really) called The Gun by CJ Chivers. He went on at great length about the development of the AK, the set backs, the political games that made it the chosen rifle (of which there were many), etc, etc, and ergonomics and tactics were never discussed as an issue. That's not to say they were never considered, but as comprehensive as that book is he never mentions them other than to remark that they're "easy" to operate and that was the Soviet approach.
This soviet AK manual on page 6 clearly shows a reloading being done with the right hand with the left hand holding onto the front handguard.
commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:31413889-Soviet-AKM-47-Assault-Rifle-Manual-Kalashnikov-1970r.djvu&page=6
The reason you won't see anyone teach it that way it's because we are not usually exposed to Russian content and to westerners it seems more natural or practical to reload using the support hand. Maybe Russian doctrine has changed over time but it seems that the AK was intended for a firing hand reload, all the controls are on the right side.
We had a Junker & Ruh kitchen stove in the 1960s!
They were also known for their sewing machines.
A lefty SMG! Almost like it was designed for Ian!
Someone should make a version that feeds from both sides and ejects downward like a P90.
The bolt action style charging handle, whether intentional or not, acts as a safety mechanism since this is an open bolt gun. It would essentially eliminate the possibility of the handle being pulled back if it were to snag on something.
Your ability to procure these firearms for our viewing pleasure never ceases to amaze me, and there are so many I'd love to own, or simply get my hands on. It might never happen, but you've started the dream.
Thanks, Ian.
With this configuration, it is easier for a right handed shooter to find the mag well in low light (night) conditions. Basically it becomes a hand meets hand movement.
Keep up the great work Ian. You're N.1
I used to think it was: 'Shoots & Larson'. Which I thought was the perfect name for a gun manufacturer.
Using the left support hand makes sense both with the right hand magazine and the rifle style bolt handle, basically the same ergonomics of a standard bolt action operation. And at the same time you have the safety conveniently in left thumb reach. Looks like a good design to me.
Marco Diodati kind of reminding me to the Pederson device for 1903 Springfield
My thought exactly... hold the gun against your shoulder, with your left hand on the forestock, take the magazine out with your right hand, put it in a pouch or something. Take a new mag, put it in the gun, take your hand back to the bolt handle, cycle it... hand futo trigger... Viola!
I like it!
One huge advantage of a right feed gun is it allows a right handed soldier to fire behind objects without the magazine getting in the way. This is my guess for the reason
Forgotten Bergmanns is back! Yes!
I think the right hand side magazine makes perfect sense when taking the "goofy" charging handle into account. Usually you operate it with your right hand (yeah I know, you can do it lefty-style too but compare the ergonomics of left vs. right hand and it's pretty obvious which is better) so it makes sense to use the same hand for magazine change as well instead of switching grips.
It was meant to allow soldiers to reload faster by using the same hand that changed the magazine to cycle the bolt. They picked the left side to allow soldiers to feel familiar with the bolt action system (same as on rifles)
Love your videos as a patrion supporter at ten bucks a month ignore the people offended by the flag they do not respect the historical relevance of it. Thank you for your videos.
Beautiful red finish on the mag well of the MP35. Beautiful.
Ah, my good friend Forgotten Bergmanns back at long last.
Gun Jesus back teaching us about this rare and beautiful gun.
Another hypothesis on the right side mag is that it allows the rifle to sit flat across the front of the body while carrying it. I also think the bolt action style charging handle may have been a safety mechanism to prevent you from catching the bolt and accidentally charging/firing the weapon.
Its Forgotten weapons! It gets a thumbs up at the start, then i watch. You just know its just going to be interesting and informative.
I miss the Bergmann pistols😭😭😭😭😭😭
You've got a Bergmann (machine) pistol right in front of you.
Whenever the magazine is, they look fucking' amazing
Like Ian I am a left hand shooter.
During my Commando training with the Royal Marines, at the ranges at Straight Point near Exmouth in Devon back in the early 80s, I easily won an informal sweepstake competition against the other guys in the batch using the Sterling SMG, firing it left handed in a rather complicated course of fire. The Steirling has the mag coming in from the left per the Sten, FG42 and the vast bulk of side fed magazine small arms.
There was no issue with firing the Sterling arse about face, other than the position of the change lever at the top left of the pistol grip, and even that wasn't much of an issue. Certainly firing the Sterling left handed makes it much easier to see what's going on through the ejection port should you have a stoppage. Additionally - not covered by Ian - it also leaves your vision forward a little clearer when you are firing, as the mag is not running horizontally across your field of view, conferring something of a tactical advantages. So I suspect these are the main reasons the Bergman is configured with right hand feed, giving these benefits to the bulk of shooters who are right handed.
The only weapon I came across in those pre SA80 days - that had an issue for left handers was the L4 Bren, which was in service in the 80s along with the GPMG (FN-MAG belt fed machine gun designated L7 in UK service) the GPMG was/ is just fine firing left handed. I shoot hand guns right handed, as I am one of those weird geezers that are right handed but left eyed and it is easy to use the left eye for sight acquisition when shooting a handgun.
Had a friend whose grandfather used one of those, he had small finger so he would shove two into the garud and that almost always gave him full auto when he wanted it.
The germans masters of desing, class AND funtionality.
Talking about shooting from the left: I was surprised when I fired the FN Minimi Para, as a lefty, that they had not adapted the gun to work very well from the left shoulder. The ejection port makes sure you get 1000 casings a minute hitting your right bicep, and since they travel somewhat fast it becomes quite an irritating thing.
You said it in the video with regards to the cocking handle "to replicate the manual of arms with a bolt action rifle" I bet that's why the magazine is on the right, so you hold it in your left and charge it with your right hand, just like a bolt action rifle.
Seeing as the action is operated like a bolt action, doesn't that explain the right side feed? After all, after changing the magazine you'll have to take your right hand off the gun to charge it anyway. You might as well use the same hand for both operations instead of juggling the thing back and forth.
I like the reasoning behind the mag on the right side but that trigger has to go!
Great reviews as always sir.
Maybe he wanted to discourage people from using the mag as a grip.
The second reason that Ian mentioned seems very real for me. Soviet army rules says that in order to reload AK soldier must use right hand to remove magazine and use left hand to hold AK forend at the same time. Nowadays special forces used to reload with left hand, more fancy way.
Those are absolutely gorgeous sub guns. Your RIA series' always make me very happy :)
As always, great video with informative material. Thanks Ian!
love your videos. i was raised around firearms and have learned a lot about the more obscure from watching you guys. history is fun and firearm history is especialy interesting. keep it up!
Having in on that side allows you to carry it more effectively as a righty.
Carry a right fed sub vs a left fed sub for 8-24 hrs a day on a patrol in cities or mountains and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
Im right handed, but i would love a smg like this, i like the idea of the rightside mounted magazine and this "bolt action smg" thing
I would think that you as a left handed person wouldn't think it fed from the wrong side! Actually I think you are probably right about the designer being left handed. I don't think he designed the gun to be left handed. I believe he was just designing a great handling gun and because he was left handed, it turned out like this.
I actually suspect Sam Colt was left handed. If you consider the loading, unloading and the rifling of the Single Action Army, it is a natural for a lefty. Not so much for right handed folks. My Grandfather from the mountains was so smart in a simple way. When I was very young he was teaching me to use a hatchet. I was doing exactly like he showed me but having trouble with it. Grandpa pointed to my right hand and said 'do it like that but You use that hand', Grandpa was left handed.
Great video!
1000m sights on a sub gun gave me a chuckle
To feed the gun from the right makes sense. If you are right-handed, and you are shouldering the weapon, to push the magazine into the receiver far ahead of the hand that holds the trigger means that you have a bad leverage to keep the weapon in line, and you are working with the wrong hand.
Instead, if you insert the magazine with your right hand, you are working with the most able hand, and you are pushing directly towards the left hand, so with no leverage at all.
Yay!...More Bergmans!
The manufacturer's marking for Junker & Ruh AG, is ajf, not ajt. Look closely and you'll see the 't' on the receiver is actually an 'f'. ;)
I'll bet that thing was a joy to operate in winter wearing gloves.
As a fellow lefty shooter (though I do most everything else aside from writing right-handed), I can attest that guns that eject the wrong way aren't a problem, although I learned pretty quickly to rack the slide of my pump shotgun smartly, otherwise the brass end of the hull lands in the crook of my elbow.
FYI, in writings translated from the German, MP is often spelled MPi to show the pronunciation as em pee, as MP would be pronounced as em pay.
Based on the way the gun is charged with the bolt-action esque charging handle, the theory you gave about reloading with your support hand on the gun makes the most sense.
Sweden apparently purchased 1800 MP35 (in both short and long versions) in 1939, designating it "Kulsprutepistol m/39".
Seesaw type firing pins are good to avoid out of battery discharges caused by stucked cases partialy introduced on the chamber. Orita, Thompson, Vasely, Welgun, STAR Z 62/63/70 and this MP35 are examples.
another possible idea is a right handed person might be able to change a mag with more proficiency if that task was done with the dominant hand and the off hand only had to hold the gun.
I was hoping the next gun Ian would review would be this ! Awesome
thank you for good vids I am Danish and really impressed with your knowledge. Thank you,Ian
Didn't expect to see the flag uncensored and still reeling from the events of this week. Still as someone who cares about history I didn't think the flag should have been censored in the first place, forgetting your enemy leads to complacency. People need to be educated not just on 'Nazis are bad' but exactly why they are bad, what atrocities they committed, what the symbols actually represent and why they are so reprehensible and detestable.
The seesaw firing pin is a good solution to prevent out of battery discharge due to dirty chamber or deformed cases. It will discharge the gun if the bolt is pulled just enough to clear a round and chamber it.
Also I very much agree with the grip theory on why the feed is on the opposite side.
Lot of these early SMGs I still remember from reading about them in an old Jane's book when I was 8. Not this one however.
You need one of these, Ian!
Those are super sweet designs
I think the reason for the magazine sticking out to the right is,
that you can change the magazine and use the "bolt action" with the same hand.
Both works best with the right hand here.
I couldn't find any good photos, but I guess the magazine pouches were worn on the right side?
haha holy crap. i asked for the mp-34/mp-35 series a few weeks ago and it showed up just today. i'm not sure if it's because of my comment but either way you're amazing Ian, thanks for this and keep it up.
As a kid in the seventies i used to see on foot patrols by the national guard carrying mausers K98s carbines and Bergmann submachine guns…sometimes MPs those were a rare site…
Love the subgun vids
I'd imagine this gun would stay very clean, and be very resistant to jamming. The charging handle design prevents dirt from getting in as easily, and with the ejection port on the inside of the grip (assuming right handed operation), not much is getting in there during normal march except maybe some lint, since it will be held closer to the chest.
Interesting design. I am LH myself, so i rather like it. But, ejecting brass has never bothered me. The bolt handle contrivance is not necessary, but they must have thought it a good idea back then. Commonality in the manual of arms is all well and good, but an SMG is fundamentally a lot different from a bolt action rifle. Oh well. I'm sure it functioned fine. Great video as always. Thank you
Although I'm not a big fan of SMGs or pistol-caliber carbines, I think something like this would be very handy for a lefty such as myself. Then again, I've become so used to using right-handed automatic weapons in my left shoulder that not having the ability to see the chamber would be odd for me.
This is a truly pretty firearm. I so want one lol
i imagine that the mag is on the left so that a right hander can carry the weapon up against his chest like on picket duty or during policing duties, or because the action was really sensitive to the action being puled on so he put it there to discourage people holding on to it.
The manufacturer stamping seems to be "ajf" (the top of the "f" is a bit faint) for "Junker & Ruh AG, Karlsruhe, Baden" and that matches the company which was licenced to produce the MP 35.
The place I found the ordinance codes is proofhouse.com/cm/ger_ord_codes.htm
There doesn't seem to be an "ajt" on their list.
It looks like a pretty good gun.
Sweet, another Forgotten Bergmann,
Another option for the right handed magazine might be so that when the rifle is slung on your right side you're not getting jabbed by the magazine.
One more reason could be a combination of 2and3
Better to hold when reloading, easier view and better reloading, because the right hand is at the right side obviously and therefore you can use your better hand to reload... As right hander.
Also the shells aren't flying into the person next to you.
I think sidemounted mags are better for shooting in a flat position
I think it feeds from the "wrong" side because you have to operate the "bolt handle" too... and you can't do it while having a hold of the gun on the pistol grip.
i would agree with ideas number 2 and 3. both are logical and practical. i prefare to hold a stock up my shoulder, holded with with left hand and reload with sights all the time on my target (i'm righthander). well, as lonng as my left hand is in front of magazine.
Now this is a really nice weapon, goofy and unusual, just how I like them.
RfV stands for "Reichsfinanzverwaltung" (imperial finance administration). So I guess the gun was used by the customs border patrol .
The "i" is a Roman 1. There is no German word for improvement or version with an i at the beginning, and the stile of letter was only used for Roman numbers back than.
411.48 R great info! Thanks!
it's also Ajf 43, not Ajt
Ian could you do a video on the winchester self loading rifles .I think with them popping up in video games and tv shows people would like to know more about them. thanks
Would be cool to see a KP-31 and this MP-35 in a side by side comparison, not sure which one I like better, heck maybe throw a few more models in.
Damn cool gun.
Any possibility of seeing Japanese Type 100s any time in the future?
Another possible reason for the right hand feed is because when a right handed shooter has a gun slung in front of them, the left side of the gun is against their body. Having a magazine sticking out on the left would rotate the gun away from the shooter and be rather uncomfortable.
One (very vague) possibility for the choice of magazine side. My father used the STEN in combat, a left feed. He was ruthlessly drilled never to grip the mag or mag well as it may cause misfeeds. Maybe Bergmann had this in mind? Just a suggestion.
Maybe the magazine was changed to discourage the magazine well gripping, which could lead to distorting the seat of magazine, thus (possibly, i dunno about if this is a major problem) causing failures.
On the subject of left-handedness - How are your eyes Ian ? Cause mine (as a lefty) are the opposite of hands - left is weak (with a minor shortsightness), and right is good, so I shoot right-handed.
budzas I think he covered this in his cripple stock shotgun video months ago? I don't remember what he said but I think he's swap eyed
My wife is right handed, but left eye dominant. Apparently it's more common in women than men, but she still shoots pretty well.
On the subject of left handers some sick god thought it would be a good idea to make my right eye extremely blurry for any form of distance shooting so i have to use the gun in my left with my left eye if i want to make precise shots but right hand and right eye if the "Target" is within 50 metres or so. it's a damn pain, going to rip out one of the lenses in a pair of glasses so i can use my right eye for ranged shots without having a limitation, i do find it weird though i am left handed and my left eye has a sharper vision but then my actual ride side of my body is physically stronger (Can hold a heavy rifle for much longer)
1000 meter sights on a SMG, that's very optimistic.
The left side ejector could also benefit soldiers in close quarters or in a line not hitting each other with hot spent shells in combat.
It feeds from the right side, so it is wrong. Get it? It is right, so it is not right LOL
Another possibility for a left hand eject is to have the magazine pointing away from the body when held in the right hand while in the low ready position.
I'm betting the right side mag is related to the bolt handle. Charging the weapon requires the right hand, so it makes sense to also load the magazine with that hand.
Anyone who is left-handed:finally
I think the reasoning behind the magwell position is a mix of your speculation #2, and that it's much easier to move something (mag) blindly towards a target (magwell) when those points are close together in your hands. You're positionally aware of where your other hand is, while you may not be positionally aware of where a left-side magwell in when it's 6-8" ahead of the hand holding the SMG. Putting it on the right means the separation is 1-2".
It also would really reduce leverage if there's an issue with the magazine either entering or exiting the magwell. That would be the difference in tugging directly on a stuck mag body, and tugging on one attached to the end of a 6 to 8" long stick.
Perhaps the gun was designed with the idea that you turn the gun to the right so the magazine is pointing downward allowing the shooter to change the mag with his left hand and it would prevent most shooters from using the magazine as a grip which could affect the feeding and reliability. Just a thought.
I like this sub machine gun. It has a few quarks, but it looks like it would work well. I am too cheap to own one myself, ha.
Aren't there certain side feeding smgs that have feeding issues when the mag is used as a grip? Could the right side feed be a way to keep people from using the mag as a grip?
Isn't the arrow to show the top of the bolt for reassembly?
Can you find a Bergmann MG15, either the aA original version, or the nA improved version?
I suggest that the magazine being on the right side would allow more comfortable carrying of the gun against the body for a righthanded shooter.
Ian, you talk that much about getting dirt and mud into the action and now I want to see a mud test on the gun.