See when he said "thank you", at that time it wasn't being used as a gesture of kindness but instead as a "thank you for confirming" situation. Didn't he ring the warning bell as well?
Raise your hand if you think ramming a 52,000-ton ship into an iceberg that probably weights at least 250,000 tons is a good idea. *SIDENOTE:* Gross tonnage is a measurement of open space; 100 square feet of open space = 1 gross ton. The _Titanic_ had a gross tonnage of approximately 46,000 gross tons, but weighed 52,000 tons.
What a stupid comment ! No one thinks ramming an iceberg is a " good idea" but it would have been the least worst option out of only two available. He chose the wrong option and the ship sank. Simple as.
@@scabbycatcat4202 "He chose the wrong option." Next time your car is hurtling at a brick wall, remember to crash into it head on, because there's a chance it could do less damage than if you swerve out of the way!
The other aspect of the whole 'Murdoch should have rammed the berg!!' idea is - can you imagine the inquiry? Even if the result isn't total disaster and massive structural damage to the ship. Let's assume it's another 'Arizona' type deal. You've injured some people in the for'd part of the ship, maybe even killed people. Even if you haven't, you've stoved in the bow of WSL's big new liner on its maiden voyage. In the unlikely event that the Board of Trade don't get involved, Murdoch is going to be raked over the coals by the WSL and they're going to ask a very obvious question: "Why didn't you try and go round the berg?" What's Murdoch supposed to answer? "I had a funny idea that if I tried to turn the ship wouldn't quite make it and take a glancing blow that would just about open up enough hull seams to just barely overcome the watertight subvision and doom the ship" ?? Unless you're dealing with U-Boats in wartime, ships officers are trained, and rightly expected, to avoid things. It's a theory born entirely from hindsight of this specific disaster, a bit like the 'If only there had been more lifeboats...', although that one at least has a sound moral basis, even if it completely falls down in practical terms. The idea that ramming the berg was the thing to do was scorned by professional seamen at the time. Joseph Conrad (who was a time-served sea officer and held a British master's ticket before becoming an author) wrote an essay in 1912 dealing perfectly with the issue, and the matter of the sheer momentum of these new large ships that was mentioned in the video. I'm sure Lightoller made exactly the same point in reference to White Star ships, something to the effect of that in the old Majestic or Oceanic, if you bumped into a dock you'd take the paint off and maybe bend a hull plate. Do the same in an Olympic-class ship and you could cause serious damage to both the ship and whatever you hit. The new breed of super-liners needed to be handled with much more care, whether it was crawling into port or steaming through ice fields at 22 knots.
Jack Grover absolutely the WSL and the board of trade would have raked his ass over the coals and that's only if he lived to see an enquiry imagine Murdoch having to explain that way of thinking to the people on board not only some of the richest and most influential people in the world at the time form tycoons business moguls and captains of industry (J'J Astor, Isodor and Ida Strauss, Benjamin Guggenheim)to low level royalty (countess of rothes) people with voices that will not likely be ignored, but also the managing director of the shipping line, the designer of the ship itself and to top it all off the captain as well he'd have been lucky they didn't just have him tossed overboard into the icy ocean before midnight struck
Jack Grover ............ You have raised a very good point and one which murdoch would not have survived ( as an employee of WSL ) had he " rammed " the berg. Had I been in Murdochs shoes I would have explained as follows.;- I had been on sea trials on this ship and everyone agreed she was very slow to turn. As soon as I personally sighted the berg I was certain the ship simply did not have enough time to turn and I knew with certainty a collision was inevitable. I therefore decided that the STRONGEST part of the ship ( the bow ) should come into contact with the berg first. This action would have undoubtable SAVED the ship and over 1000 lives , yet Murdoch would simply have " got the blame " for NOT TURNING . They would have done their upmost to discredit Murdochs explanation.
I think it was also calculated that in a head on iceberg collision that Titanic would have lost electrical power almost instantly when the keel let go and engineering is opened to the sea. 15 minutes or less to get out of a blacked out ship breaking up in the middle of the night, wow. All souls lost or very close to that.
I went to the Titanic museum two weeks ago and when you get there that give you a boarding pass with a real person from the Titanic and I was John (Jack) Phillips.
Exchange between Frederick Fleet and 6th officer James Moody. Reginald Lee sounds the bell (not sure) and Frederick Fleet calls the bridge. Fleet: Is there anyone there? Moody: Yes, what do you see? Fleet: Iceberg right ahead. Moody: Thank you. Murdoch react immediately and orders hard to starboard
It’s good to hear all this. It bothers me that so many people tell this story without really understanding it, and by dividing the people into fools/bad guys and good guys.
It's literally like if you were in a car, and then you saw this giant van pop in front of you and then your like: "Yeah, let's ram it instead of trying to turn away! Cause that's how it works!" *BREAKING NEWS:* There was an accident today to which a man, 27-year old James Bobson, was killed when his SUV crashed into a giant van earlier this morning. Reports say that he just continued to drive, despite the fact that he could've turned.
In 1879 the ss Arizona was steaming at her full speed ( 15knots ) and collided head on with an iceberg. Had she had Murdoch on the bridge and he acted exactly as he did with the Titanic he would have scraped the berg right alongside the ship with exactly the same consequences. Fortunately the bow crushed back onto itself exactly how you would expect it to and after temporary repairs the ship steamed on to her destination without any deaths at all. Had Titanic done the same she would be but a footnote in history.
Yes Tirpitz thats a really good comparison isn't it ? Oh wait , I almost forgot , exept for 1 tiny little detail which you have overlooked. A car speeding toward a van has a pedal in the drivers footwell. This is known as a BRAKE pedal. It is there to STOP the car. Ships move in water and this might come as a surprise to you but they do NOT have a BRAKE pedal. They have to go through the cumbersome and time consuming practice of sending a message on a thing called a telegraph from the Bridge to the engine room , which is quite some way down below. The ship would take some time stopping the propellors and then actually making them go in reverse. Other than that its a perfectly sensible comparison to compare a car to a ship. Have a nice day..
Because they had the water tight doors open only that day. They were supposed to be closed. The mine/torpedo bent one of the doors, making it lose its ability to close.
Sami Ghidini At the time of the explosion of the mine a change shift on the boiler rooms was taking place and that taked 30 minutes thats why the doors were open
I hate when people say the ship should have gone straight into the iceberg. It implies Murdoch planned on sideswiping the iceberg thinking that would be better than crashing head-on. The ship would not have survived a head on crash, and we know it did not survived the way it did hit, however it would definitely have survived if it missed the iceberg completely and that was the outcome Murdoch was attempting.
I mostly agree. I don’t think we can know that the ship would’ve sank in a head on collision, we don’t know the size of the iceberg. But even if the ship surely would have survived a head-on collision, it is still completely understandable why they tried to avoid the problem altogether. If they had rammed and survived, they’d have been ironically reprimanded or fired for not attempting to avoid.
I agree about rudder size Olympic had the same size rudder as titanic and during her time in WWI the wartime captain said she was the most agile and responsive ship her ever commanded.
Interesting Titanic trivia. Its well known there have been many films made about the Titanic. One which flopped spectacularly at the box office was " raise the Titanic "" Lew grade who made the film was asked to comment on his massive losses on the film....... " raise the titanic, it would have been cheaper for me to drain the Atlantic !!!
+ Titanic: Honor And Glory, this is a good overview on the actions that were and weren't taken and the reasoning. During the later part of the video, you got a question about propeller and engine operation following the iceberg sighting. I have a thought on that, but I don't have the necessary knowledge to even begin to calculate whether or not it's plausible.
Re "Titanic should have rammed the iceberg" argument, one factor you overlooked but could have been hugely impactful, when Britannic hit the mine, the force of the impact also destroyed its wireless antenna. In Britannic's case it didn't make much difference because it was within sight of land and other ships. If the same had happened to Titanic it would have been at least Monday morning before anyone would suspect there was a problem, and nobody would have had any idea where to look.
Holy crap.... Did I just hear tom say " hold my beer, we are going to ram it?" I fealt so guilty laughing during such a tragic timeline of events but I couldn't help it.
I always understood it that they saw the iceberg at roughly the same moment. But as the lookouts need to call it in first, all Murdoch has to do is run a few steps and shout his command to turn. So it all sort of happens at once. He was by all accounts, a solid and diligent officer. So I don't believe he wouldn't be paying attention on his watch.
I think that the order of events was this. Fleet sees the iceberg snd rings the warning bell. This put Mordoch In high alert and he payed ultra attention to the horizon in which he sees the iceberg. I also could say that they may have saw the berg at the exact same time. Then Mordoch either runs into the wheelhouse (like in the 1997 film) or ran into the bridge and gave the order of hard to Starboard. He then rang the telegraphs orders and as he finished the helm was hard over and Mordoch finished by watching from the bridge. My opinion is very similar to the James Camaroon Movie but that’s actually what I believe happened. There are a few flaws with that iceberg collision (such as moody getting tea which never happend, also as you discussed Fredrick Barrett said that the order to stop the engines rather then full astern)
If First Officer Murdoch had survived the sinking, would he have been held legally responsible since he was the officer in charge during the collision?
The hold my beer we’re gonna ram this thing is something I am going to use in a episode of my animated series where the main characters take a cruise on a ship and the ship ends up encountering a bunch of rocks
Does anybody have a link to that Lego Titanic documentary? Also would the technique that Britannic did by spinning one propeller at a higher speed than the other to help turn it towards Kea hurt or improve Titanic's turning capability in that 37 seconds between spotting the iceberg and the collision?
But first office willam Murdoch thought that he could miss the iceberg All together and he thought that he could save the unsinkable RMS Titanic all together
The light was red, Barrett testified "a red light goes up when the ship is supposed to stop; a white light for full speed, and, I think it is a blue light for slow. This red light came up..."
hey guys kristoff here with a question for you.will you guys fix the lighting on titanic and if you had the chance, would you tell the fictional story of the celestia, via your programming, I mean if you want to that is.
You mentioned a computer model of what would have happened had the Titanic rammed the iceberg. Is this available online? I am curious to see the finer details.
That's what they said in this very podcast. Not only would the Titanic have sunk, but it would have sunk in 15-30 minutes, depending on how many places the hull ruptured.
On the Titanic Channel Park's Stephenson said he did some heavy number crunching with the help 2012 simulation data and he calculated that with the energy of momentum behind it the forces acting on the hull would be over 10 times it's maximum strength. This would cause all bulkheads to warp due to how much the ship would have bent and would have cracked shell plating all over the place
itsstillthinking1999 yes you are correct. It's like a car hitting a wall at 50 mph. The ship ways way too much and to go from 22 knots to stopping would cripple the ship. Way too much energy would be dispersed
If I had the to go back in time during the design process of the titanic I would tell the designers to make the rudder bigger when I say bigger I dont mean double the size I mean make a little bigger there and there just enough to make it turn 2.5 to 3 points. The bigger the rudder the more water moved and thus a smaller turning circle and thus the ability to dodge the iceberg.
If Titanic hadn't fallen victim, then it would've just been another ship that caused the dramatic soap opera tragedy that convinced the world to update their lifeboat regulations.
If Murdoch would have ordered the starboard anchor or better all anchors dropped, assuming the order is carried out in time, I wonder what the consequences would be. I've tried to do the physics on drag alone and it would have slowed her down some. 2. Titanic pivoted around the iceberg if it would have gotten caught on the anchor chain that pivot would have been of a greater magnitude. What does everyone think? Do I have something here or am I....
c'est une histoire qui marque les esprits d'être dans la nuit,de quitter la personne que tu aimes,quitter ta famille de ne pas trop savoir la situation du moment,de ne pas comprendre la langue (pour certains),d'être dans une froid glacial ,en pleine mer,de regarder la scène dans un cannot d'entendre tous ces cris, et de ne pas savoir si il y aura du secours, malgres cette histoire la seule chance que les survivants ont eu ,c'est le calme de la mer sinon aucuns survivants ,dans un livre de 1959 il raconte que la mer se déchaînait a l'arrivée du carpathia et que sa a mis des plombes a faire monter les survivants les personnes âgées galeraient a monter a bord du carpathia pour être vu, un des survivants a bruler un chapeau en paille prit sur un enfant donné par astor car le garçon ne pouvait pas monter il lui a mis un chapeau de paille en disant au marin ,maintenant c'est une fille!!!
@@dannydevito9056 Amazing, isn't it? To consider the totality of Murdock's actions and background would denote that the throwing of the left propeller after slamming the ship into reverse, coupled with turning her belly towards the iceberg and then upon contact, turning the ship hard a starboard, effectively grinding the Olympic on the to maximize the wound is apparent from the combination of choices made by the 1st officer.... including killing himself and another officer with a gun...
It means to run a ship aground, like the USS Nevada, and the Repair ship Vestal at Pearl Harbor, they left Battleship Row and both were run aground at Hospital and Mcgrews point
I agree, the mirage theory is the only logical explanation why no one on the bridge, nor the 2 in the look out crows nest could see the ice berg until it was too late. That ice berg was completely cloaked. Nothing else logical explains why some 6 or 7 people saw nothing until they were about 500 yards away. Sometime between 9:00 PM and 9:30 captain Smith retired and commanded Liteholler that he be alerted if conditions should change. So apparently the mirage conditions hadn't yet fully developed at that time, of the which they were close to entering the Labrador current. Oddly enough, this is just about the time that the message from the Musaba came in warning of heavy ice conditions DIRECTLY IN THEIR PATH. Smith thought they were somewhat out of harms way by adjusting his course some 20 miles south to circumvent the earlier warnings from previous message received during the day. Sometime after 10:00 PM visibility began to change and become poor. My guess would be approx. 11"00 PM.........These two critical events is why the Titanic struck the ice berg >1) the accidentally failed delivery of the message from the Musaba, and 2) the abrupt change in visibility that apparently was not reported to captain Smith, whereas these conditions didn't exist when he retired for bed around 9:30 or there about.
Stanley Lord said it was a most peculiar nigh indeed, in that the conditions were very unusual, whereas one could not tell were the horizon ended and the sky began.....note: somewhere within the hearings it was proven that the bridge had heard from the crows nest first, before Murdoch gave the navigational commands. I cant remember exactly the details concerning this matter....
also, one of the passengers testified that the ice berg he saw after the collision vanished away from his sight at about 150 yards. Yes, it could have been in reality some 300 yards, however this is further proof that the berg was severely cloaked by a enigmas mirage condition... Again; Stanley Lord said it was a most peculiar nigh indeed, in that the conditions were very unusual, whereas one could not tell were the horizon ended and the sky began...
Jeff Brister well titanic was at the time the biggest moving object and went 22 knots they explained it in the podcast she would have buckled and possible her keek would have broken. Britannic hit a Seamine which causes many watertight doors to be damaged titanic would have the same problems and it would have sunk much faster.
rct3LP literally said it all, Titanic was almost doing full speed, a ship with that size and momentum would not only smash its whole bow, but the impact would cause all the plates (which btw remember these ships were not weld built) to loosen up and allow water to go in from further down the ship. People need to stop thinking hitting it dead on would have been okay. And also what goes through someones mind to hit and iceberg dead on when they were so close to avoiding it?
It was estimated that the ice berg weighed appox. 2 billion lbs. (two thousand million lbs).. The Titanic weighing in at about 100 million lbs, and was going 25 MPH. Do the math. Even if it survived the collision, there would have been hundreds, if not a 1000 or more very serious injuries upon impact....
@@TheMarineGamerIGGHQ Titanic was absolutely well built: it didn't need to be poorly built to buckle from the theoretical impact of a head-on collision. That type of force would smash any ship regardless of its quality.
Not RAM the berg...BUMP it. Stop the ship...it'll take a bit to slow down but it won't be sailing into an iceberg at 22 knots. AND.... maybe I'm being an idiot for taking a movie's word for something, but in the tv movie (George C. Scott as Cpt Smith) he did make a good point. *"NEVER TURN YOUR BROAD SIDE TO DANGER"* How fast would the ship have been moving after it was stopped? I guess that's a big issue. Then... there's the issue of NOT being able to anticipate how big the berg was BELOW the waterline. That's where the majority of the berg is. So the inability to see the berg in time hindered how wide a berth they needed to get around. It was just STARTING to turn when it scraped the ship. That was one NASTY scrape.
Johanna Oznowicz aka Fuzzy Bunny Slippers If they didn’t have time to completely port around it then how the hell would they have had time to slow her down quickly enough to not hit the berg? Or am I misunderstanding your statement? There was the mirage effect that unfortunately did not allow them to see the berg until less than a minute from the collision. Less than a minute is not nearly enough to stop 46,000 tons of inertia going 21 knots.
I reackon they still could of saved the ship full 22 knots reverse engines as they had done to both Olympic and Titanic in Belfast during the sea worthy tests and those where 1/4 mile test and smaller the reversal could of brought the ship to a dead stop or to like 5 knots momentum then they could of gained mobility later once clear bow of view of ice I've done some sailing myself it could be done.
The only thing that lets reversing a ship down given how close the iceberg was is the momentum given the weight and size of the ship reversing won't slow it down right away but even if we say the ice berg was 1/4 mile away reversing the engines could theoretically slow it down dramatically like the water worthy tests in Belfast possibly preventing massive damage so IF we say fleet spots iceberg Murdoch throws engines into full speed reverse that's roughly 1,300 ft from iceberg or 400 metres enough to slow her down maybe even avoid hitting the iceberg. Cause we know from Olympic with her tests she can make abrupt stops don't see why Titanic couldn't have done similar to those water worthy tests
Please cite sources. If only for curiosity's sake. You bring up this simulation of the Titanic ramming the iceberg head on, but don't really lead anyone to it. Could you present please? You're historians, not bloggers.
Like most real modeling ship modeling a a real specialty. The cost of making a simulation from that type of model is anything but trivial. As the Honor and Glory commenter said earlier- they are a video game team and not experts in Ship design and Marine Engineering. I thought that pretty obvious from the commentary. Some of the personal chatter was boring and I would like to hear more from the others in the group but i am also glad for their passion.
It's fine tune time guys. if you're going to hold a pod cast about shit ppl already know your one rule is to provide quality information and resources, or at least something new or different! I'm not an ass and I'm still liking and subscribed as well cuz it was still a lot of work so its cool keep doing your thing just better.
I'm not really a fan of Tom's drinking, and bringing attention to it. We're here to discuss a disaster which happened and killed a lot of people, and is a subject very close to our hearts, including the fellow of TH&G, which I know. Tom you can do whatever you want in your private time and space, but bring a little less attention to it during the podcasts. Thanks.
I like the whole conspiracy theory version. Makes sense. Some of the pictures I've seen show moderate signs of something fishy happening. And then there is the fire which probably had more to do with the sinking than the iceberg (judging by the frequency of these types of collision which is virtually 1).
You may like the theory, but it's long since been disproven (and repeatedly, because conspiracy theorists usually pick and choose their evidence. If you look at all available evidence, you will see that it's 100% impossible.
I have seen a few of these podcasts and I don't think they are personally that good. I have much respect for the game and what they are creating but to be honest I think the podcasts are not that great to me. And Tom does most of the talking in almost all of them, which I wish the others would talk more instead of nodding their heads or agreeing with what tom said. Maybe Tom is the main historian or spokesman for the game? I was certainly not swayed in my opinion toward Ismay by Tom, although as I have said many times before that is my opinion based on a number of factors. For me a lot of this stuff I already know, its just a review course.
Well these are not organized podcasts. They're a REALLY small team and they spend days and nights working on the game, these podcasts they just jump on and do to interact with the community a little. Like a little tea break with everyone while but with a theme, whether thats about titanic, the game, etc. So yeah as an ACTUAL podcast its not exactly fantastic, but its not really meant to be
Doug Ross I'd watch their real-time sinking podcast, it's much better and they better explain why Ismay wasn't at fault. It's a shame that so many people jump to the popular "Ismay was a coward" opinion without doing much digging into his motives and actions that night and the following days on the Carpathia.
I don't think he is a coward, but I do believe he made a bad decision, given his position and influence as Chairmen of the White Star Line in the Edwardian Era. My personal belief is that he was scared and had to make a quick decision on wether to stay aboard like Thomas Andrews did or save himself by boarding the last launchable lifeboat. I also read the American testimony and listened to the youtube play of the testimony and he even says himself that he simply stepped into the boat when it was in the process of being lowered. Yes, he helped many women and children into the lifeboats, as did Thomas Andrews.
See when he said "thank you", at that time it wasn't being used as a gesture of kindness but instead as a "thank you for confirming" situation. Didn't he ring the warning bell as well?
Raise your hand if you think ramming a 52,000-ton ship into an iceberg that probably weights at least 250,000 tons is a good idea.
*SIDENOTE:* Gross tonnage is a measurement of open space; 100 square feet of open space = 1 gross ton. The _Titanic_ had a gross tonnage of approximately 46,000 gross tons, but weighed 52,000 tons.
Daniel Huffman Would have made for a good story. "It seemed like a good idea at the time." ;)
What a stupid comment ! No one thinks ramming an iceberg is a " good idea" but it would have been the least worst option out of only two available. He chose the wrong option and the ship sank. Simple as.
@@scabbycatcat4202 You again?
@@scabbycatcat4202 I see you didn't pay attention to the video when they discussed ramming.
@@scabbycatcat4202 "He chose the wrong option." Next time your car is hurtling at a brick wall, remember to crash into it head on, because there's a chance it could do less damage than if you swerve out of the way!
"I'm sitting here in my bathing suit"
"I didn't need that image"
Me: LOL
"Hold my beer, we're gonna ram this shit" God that was funny xD
You certainly didn't listened a thing. It would NOT have saved, it would have sunk the ship
Mark Mullins NO. Science has shown that the force generated by a head on collision is 16 times greater than the yield strenght of the steel
Mark Mullins Read this then marconigraph.com/titanic/faqs/faqs6.html Scientists know their craft but they do not know Titanic
Those guys were scientists, not architects. They didn't understand Titanic from an ARCHITECTUAL standpoint.
Nice job fellas
"The rudder hat like, no effect. Like, alright, I mean..."
"...you mean it didn't work?"
"STOP IT!"
Yes - I was one of those lego titanic kids.
The other aspect of the whole 'Murdoch should have rammed the berg!!' idea is - can you imagine the inquiry? Even if the result isn't total disaster and massive structural damage to the ship. Let's assume it's another 'Arizona' type deal. You've injured some people in the for'd part of the ship, maybe even killed people. Even if you haven't, you've stoved in the bow of WSL's big new liner on its maiden voyage. In the unlikely event that the Board of Trade don't get involved, Murdoch is going to be raked over the coals by the WSL and they're going to ask a very obvious question: "Why didn't you try and go round the berg?" What's Murdoch supposed to answer? "I had a funny idea that if I tried to turn the ship wouldn't quite make it and take a glancing blow that would just about open up enough hull seams to just barely overcome the watertight subvision and doom the ship" ?? Unless you're dealing with U-Boats in wartime, ships officers are trained, and rightly expected, to avoid things. It's a theory born entirely from hindsight of this specific disaster, a bit like the 'If only there had been more lifeboats...', although that one at least has a sound moral basis, even if it completely falls down in practical terms. The idea that ramming the berg was the thing to do was scorned by professional seamen at the time. Joseph Conrad (who was a time-served sea officer and held a British master's ticket before becoming an author) wrote an essay in 1912 dealing perfectly with the issue, and the matter of the sheer momentum of these new large ships that was mentioned in the video. I'm sure Lightoller made exactly the same point in reference to White Star ships, something to the effect of that in the old Majestic or Oceanic, if you bumped into a dock you'd take the paint off and maybe bend a hull plate. Do the same in an Olympic-class ship and you could cause serious damage to both the ship and whatever you hit. The new breed of super-liners needed to be handled with much more care, whether it was crawling into port or steaming through ice fields at 22 knots.
Jack Grover absolutely the WSL and the board of trade would have raked his ass over the coals and that's only if he lived to see an enquiry imagine Murdoch having to explain that way of thinking to the people on board not only some of the richest and most influential people in the world at the time form tycoons business moguls and captains of industry (J'J Astor, Isodor and Ida Strauss, Benjamin Guggenheim)to low level royalty (countess of rothes) people with voices that will not likely be ignored, but also the managing director of the shipping line, the designer of the ship itself and to top it all off the captain as well he'd have been lucky they didn't just have him tossed overboard into the icy ocean before midnight struck
Jack Grover ............ You have raised a very good point and one which murdoch would not have survived ( as an employee of WSL ) had he " rammed " the berg. Had I been in Murdochs shoes I would have explained as follows.;- I had been on sea trials on this ship and everyone agreed she was very slow to turn. As soon as I personally sighted the berg I was certain the ship simply did not have enough time to turn and I knew with certainty a collision was inevitable. I therefore decided that the STRONGEST part of the ship ( the bow ) should come into contact with the berg first. This action would have undoubtable SAVED the ship and over 1000 lives , yet Murdoch would simply have " got the blame " for NOT TURNING . They would have done their upmost to discredit Murdochs explanation.
But first office willam Murdoch thought that he could miss the iceberg try to save the unsinkable RMS Titanic all together
We should rewatch The Last Signals over and over again
31:53 for "Hold my beer, we're gonna ram this thing."
I think it was also calculated that in a head on iceberg collision that Titanic would have lost electrical power almost instantly when the keel let go and engineering is opened to the sea. 15 minutes or less to get out of a blacked out ship breaking up in the middle of the night, wow. All souls lost or very close to that.
Rob Burns probably would’ve been closer to Futility
Heck an darn you're right!!
Would have been just like the SS Atlantic disaster. Terrifying
These help me sleep, I love toms voice, buttery an smooth. No joke, his reading of futility is so good :)
15:42 for the good stuff boys, you’re welcome!
The correct term would be "Hold my tea."
Because remember, _Titanic_ was a British ship, not a German one.
Sono2 what would Chinese have to do with it?
Reuben Walton Chinese invented tea, dummy
The British didn't invent tea, but they're associated with it. *Sip*
If we're talking about the British version of Hold my beer, wouldn't it be Hold my ale?
Titanic and White Star were owned by American J.P. Morgan, so the Titanic was American owned, but was in practice a British ship.
I went to the Titanic museum two weeks ago and when you get there that give you a boarding pass with a real person from the Titanic and I was John (Jack) Phillips.
I got hitchens
That sounds a bit creepy tbh
Exchange between Frederick Fleet and 6th officer James Moody.
Reginald Lee sounds the bell (not sure) and Frederick Fleet calls the bridge.
Fleet: Is there anyone there?
Moody: Yes, what do you see?
Fleet: Iceberg right ahead.
Moody: Thank you.
Murdoch react immediately and orders hard to starboard
Frederick fleet rung the bell
It’s good to hear all this. It bothers me that so many people tell this story without really understanding it, and by dividing the people into fools/bad guys and good guys.
It's literally like if you were in a car, and then you saw this giant van pop in front of you and then your like: "Yeah, let's ram it instead of trying to turn away! Cause that's how it works!"
*BREAKING NEWS:*
There was an accident today to which a man, 27-year old James Bobson, was killed when his SUV crashed into a giant van earlier this morning. Reports say that he just continued to drive, despite the fact that he could've turned.
Yeah that sounds about right. 😅
In 1879 the ss Arizona was steaming at her full speed ( 15knots ) and collided head on with an iceberg. Had she had Murdoch on the bridge and he acted exactly as he did with the Titanic he would have scraped the berg right alongside the ship with exactly the same consequences. Fortunately the bow crushed back onto itself exactly how you would expect it to and after temporary repairs the ship steamed on to her destination without any deaths at all. Had Titanic done the same she would be but a footnote in history.
@@scabbycatcat4202 you do realize that the Titanic weighs a lot more than the ss arizona
@@3mma_2020 Never !! Really ???
Yes Tirpitz thats a really good comparison isn't it ? Oh wait , I almost forgot , exept for 1 tiny little detail which you have overlooked. A car speeding toward a van has a pedal in the drivers footwell. This is known as a BRAKE pedal. It is there to STOP the car. Ships move in water and this might come as a surprise to you but they do NOT have a BRAKE pedal. They have to go through the cumbersome and time consuming practice of sending a message on a thing called a telegraph from the Bridge to the engine room , which is quite some way down below. The ship would take some time stopping the propellors and then actually making them go in reverse. Other than that its a perfectly sensible comparison to compare a car to a ship. Have a nice day..
Britannic had major redesign, a double hull along boiler rooms, raised bulk heads on first six water tight compartment and others.
And yet it still sank.
Because they had the water tight doors open only that day. They were supposed to be closed. The mine/torpedo bent one of the doors, making it lose its ability to close.
Sami Ghidini At the time of the explosion of the mine a change shift on the boiler rooms was taking place and that taked 30 minutes thats why the doors were open
Ophiophagus hannah I know, but the doors could still close after the explosion theoretically, but one of the doors got jammed...
UHDGamers
Several watertight doors were jammed, portholes were open.
Yeah, it could've stayed afloat, but it didn't.
I hate when people say the ship should have gone straight into the iceberg. It implies Murdoch planned on sideswiping the iceberg thinking that would be better than crashing head-on. The ship would not have survived a head on crash, and we know it did not survived the way it did hit, however it would definitely have survived if it missed the iceberg completely and that was the outcome Murdoch was attempting.
I mostly agree. I don’t think we can know that the ship would’ve sank in a head on collision, we don’t know the size of the iceberg.
But even if the ship surely would have survived a head-on collision, it is still completely understandable why they tried to avoid the problem altogether.
If they had rammed and survived, they’d have been ironically reprimanded or fired for not attempting to avoid.
I agree about rudder size Olympic had the same size rudder as titanic and during her time in WWI the wartime captain said she was the most agile and responsive ship her ever commanded.
This is very interesting. I want to see a link for Titanic hitting the iceberg head on.
DAMNIT HICHENS! You let my beer get spilled!Well we know Murdoch wasn't drunk. His beer got spilled.
Lol
Interesting Titanic trivia. Its well known there have been many films made about the Titanic. One which flopped spectacularly at the box office was " raise the Titanic "" Lew grade who made the film was asked to comment on his massive losses on the film....... " raise the titanic, it would have been cheaper for me to drain the Atlantic !!!
+ Titanic: Honor And Glory, this is a good overview on the actions that were and weren't taken and the reasoning. During the later part of the video, you got a question about propeller and engine operation following the iceberg sighting. I have a thought on that, but I don't have the necessary knowledge to even begin to calculate whether or not it's plausible.
Search for Sam Halpern thoughts on that
Maybe the author of Futility came from an alternate timeline where the Titan(ic) did ram the iceberg /j
"Hold my beer. Were gonna ram this thing." XD.
No captain of a big ship would get drunk on duty.
*Cough*concordia*cough
Re "Titanic should have rammed the iceberg" argument, one factor you overlooked but could have been hugely impactful, when Britannic hit the mine, the force of the impact also destroyed its wireless antenna. In Britannic's case it didn't make much difference because it was within sight of land and other ships. If the same had happened to Titanic it would have been at least Monday morning before anyone would suspect there was a problem, and nobody would have had any idea where to look.
You can learn a lot on this channel.
Holy crap.... Did I just hear tom say " hold my beer, we are going to ram it?" I fealt so guilty laughing during such a tragic timeline of events but I couldn't help it.
its going to be a great sim, any chance the final game with have the correct night sky (stars) constellations
Yes
I missed. I hope we can expect Demo 3 tomorrow.
I always understood it that they saw the iceberg at roughly the same moment.
But as the lookouts need to call it in first, all Murdoch has to do is run a few steps and shout his command to turn. So it all sort of happens at once.
He was by all accounts, a solid and diligent officer. So I don't believe he wouldn't be paying attention on his watch.
20:39- Fredirck Fleet wasn't an engineer. He was with Reginal Lee in the crows nest. I believe you are speaking about Fredrick Barret.
Roy Derouin yes, simple mistake as we were talking about many things.
I think that the order of events was this. Fleet sees the iceberg snd rings the warning bell. This put Mordoch In high alert and he payed ultra attention to the horizon in which he sees the iceberg. I also could say that they may have saw the berg at the exact same time. Then Mordoch either runs into the wheelhouse (like in the 1997 film) or ran into the bridge and gave the order of hard to Starboard. He then rang the telegraphs orders and as he finished the helm was hard over and Mordoch finished by watching from the bridge.
My opinion is very similar to the James Camaroon Movie but that’s actually what I believe happened. There are a few flaws with that iceberg collision (such as moody getting tea which never happend, also as you discussed Fredrick Barrett said that the order to stop the engines rather then full astern)
If First Officer Murdoch had survived the sinking, would he have been held legally responsible since he was the officer in charge during the collision?
Jeff Brister Most likely, I would think. He would definitely be added to the list lol
The hold my beer we’re gonna ram this thing is something I am going to use in a episode of my animated series where the main characters take a cruise on a ship and the ship ends up encountering a bunch of rocks
On the britanic they left all the water tight doors open if i recall.. they never tried to close them.. why it went down so fast
They did close them, but too many were jammed by the explosion warping their tracks. Also, Britannic was moving, which made the water come in faster.
chris5150 I thought they had jammed.
Stupidhead1836 Also the portholes were open
I believe that you misspoke when you said Fredrick Fleet worked in the engine room.
He confirmed this true in a later video. He meant Frederick Barrett, and said he sometimes misspeaks their names, even though he knows which is which.
more people need to see this just to clear the air of all this terrible collision myths.
3:01 a little strong 💪🏻 reaction about the Cecilia joke.
Does anybody have a link to that Lego Titanic documentary? Also would the technique that Britannic did by spinning one propeller at a higher speed than the other to help turn it towards Kea hurt or improve Titanic's turning capability in that 37 seconds between spotting the iceberg and the collision?
39:17 is that a bird 🦅 call that we hear 👂🏿 in the background?
I have only one question: What year is the entire simulation experience finally going to be released?
But first office willam Murdoch thought that he could miss the iceberg All together and he thought that he could save the unsinkable RMS Titanic all together
The light was red, Barrett testified "a red light goes up when the ship is supposed to stop; a white light for full speed, and, I think it is a blue light for slow. This red light came up..."
hey guys kristoff here with a question for you.will you guys fix the lighting on titanic and if you had the chance, would you tell the fictional story of the celestia, via your programming, I mean if you want to that is.
We have other videos online that have lower lighting during the sinking
44:44 I’m not understanding the turning and tearing part of the description of how the Titanic grounded up onto the iceberg according to this theory.
its very unlikely, and mathematically an out price that they grounded on the berg...
You mentioned a computer model of what would have happened had the Titanic rammed the iceberg. Is this available online? I am curious to see the finer details.
I vaguely remember them saying before that the titanic may have still sunk even if it hit from the front
That's what they said in this very podcast. Not only would the Titanic have sunk, but it would have sunk in 15-30 minutes, depending on how many places the hull ruptured.
On the Titanic Channel Park's Stephenson said he did some heavy number crunching with the help 2012 simulation
data and he calculated that with the energy of momentum behind it the forces acting on the hull would be over 10 times it's maximum strength. This would cause all bulkheads to warp due to how much the ship would have bent and would have cracked shell plating all over the place
Thanks!
itsstillthinking1999 yes you are correct. It's like a car hitting a wall at 50 mph. The ship ways way too much and to go from 22 knots to stopping would cripple the ship. Way too much energy would be dispersed
7:54 what happened to the audio when you said “13th”?
It is physically impossible for a still floating iceberg to torpedo into the side of a ship. The ship would have to hit head on.
37:33 I could only imagine what the crew of that U-boat was thinking when they saw the Olympic turn towards them.
Nerdzy At that moment, they knew they fucked up.
Lol. XD
Nerdzy we dun goofed, captain
Being they were Germans I would hazard a guess it was something along the lines of, "scheiße".
If I had the to go back in time during the design process of the titanic I would tell the designers to make the rudder bigger when I say bigger I dont mean double the size I mean make a little bigger there and there just enough to make it turn 2.5 to 3 points. The bigger the rudder the more water moved and thus a smaller turning circle and thus the ability to dodge the iceberg.
If Titanic hadn't fallen victim, then it would've just been another ship that caused the dramatic soap opera tragedy that convinced the world to update their lifeboat regulations.
37:28 why did he apologize for sniffing?
Делают стрим и на фоне только картинки?? Где полная игра?? Вы когда ее еще обещали!
:(
If Murdoch would have ordered the starboard anchor or better all anchors dropped, assuming the order is carried out in time, I wonder what the consequences would be. I've tried to do the physics on drag alone and it would have slowed her down some.
2. Titanic pivoted around the iceberg if it would have gotten caught on the anchor chain that pivot would have been of a greater magnitude. What does everyone think? Do I have something here or am I....
"Hold my beer" lol
Red! the light was red :D
Fun fact: Murdoch saw the iceberg before the lookouts. Plus the captain was not and I repeat NOT drunk during the collision
Hi!
20:50, not Fleet, Barrett
Worf would of rammed the iceberg. . .
Perhaps today is a good day to die Ramming Speed!!!
Hold my beer 😂
c'est une histoire qui marque les esprits d'être dans la nuit,de quitter la personne que tu aimes,quitter ta famille de ne pas trop savoir la situation du moment,de ne pas comprendre la langue (pour certains),d'être dans une froid glacial ,en pleine mer,de regarder la scène dans un cannot d'entendre tous ces cris, et de ne pas savoir si il y aura du secours,
malgres cette histoire la seule chance que les survivants ont eu ,c'est le calme de la mer sinon aucuns survivants ,dans un livre de 1959 il raconte que la mer se déchaînait a l'arrivée du carpathia et que sa a mis des plombes a faire monter les survivants les personnes âgées galeraient a monter a bord du carpathia pour être vu, un des survivants a bruler un chapeau en paille prit sur un enfant donné par astor
car le garçon ne pouvait pas monter il lui a mis un chapeau de paille en disant au marin ,maintenant c'est une fille!!!
The ship could turn 2 points in 37 seconds. It was crashed purposefully and then rubbed against the berg.
"hard a starboard" "hard a port"💀
Umm what?
@@dannydevito9056 Amazing, isn't it? To consider the totality of Murdock's actions and background would denote that the throwing of the left propeller after slamming the ship into reverse, coupled with turning her belly towards the iceberg and then upon contact, turning the ship hard a starboard, effectively grinding the Olympic on the to maximize the wound is apparent from the combination of choices made by the 1st officer.... including killing himself and another officer with a gun...
You want a solution?
Well ill give you a solution, they should have stopped after getting multiple ice berg warnings. 🤦🏼♀️
@Railfan 765 I know that
@Railfan 765 I was just trying to be funny why are you taking my comment so literally.
39:01 what does “beaches” mean?
It means to run a ship aground, like the USS Nevada, and the Repair ship Vestal at Pearl Harbor, they left Battleship Row and both were run aground at Hospital and Mcgrews point
I'm genuinely curious if there are people who love podcasts that take forever to get to the point jesus
I agree, the mirage theory is the only logical explanation why no one on the bridge, nor the 2 in the look out crows nest could see the ice berg until it was too late. That ice berg was completely cloaked. Nothing else logical explains why some 6 or 7 people saw nothing until they were about 500 yards away. Sometime between 9:00 PM and 9:30 captain Smith retired and commanded Liteholler that he be alerted if conditions should change. So apparently the mirage conditions hadn't yet fully developed at that time, of the which they were close to entering the Labrador current. Oddly enough, this is just about the time that the message from the Musaba came in warning of heavy ice conditions DIRECTLY IN THEIR PATH. Smith thought they were somewhat out of harms way by adjusting his course some 20 miles south to circumvent the earlier warnings from previous message received during the day. Sometime after 10:00 PM visibility began to change and become poor. My guess would be approx. 11"00 PM.........These two critical events is why the Titanic struck the ice berg >1) the accidentally failed delivery of the message from the Musaba, and 2) the abrupt change in visibility that apparently was not reported to captain Smith, whereas these conditions didn't exist when he retired for bed around 9:30 or there about.
Stanley Lord said it was a most peculiar nigh indeed, in that the conditions were very unusual, whereas one could not tell were the horizon ended and the sky began.....note: somewhere within the hearings it was proven that the bridge had heard from the crows nest first, before Murdoch gave the navigational commands. I cant remember exactly the details concerning this matter....
also, one of the passengers testified that the ice berg he saw after the collision vanished away from his sight at about 150 yards. Yes, it could have been in reality some 300 yards, however this is further proof that the berg was severely cloaked by a enigmas mirage condition... Again; Stanley Lord said it was a most peculiar nigh indeed, in that the conditions were very unusual, whereas one could not tell were the horizon ended and the sky began...
Why did they say hi?
Bloody hell do you want more ads on this Christ
There are ships that have survived head on collisions and didn't sink. the bows of those ships were mangled, but only 1 or 2 compartments flooded.
Jeff Brister well titanic was at the time the biggest moving object and went 22 knots they explained it in the podcast she would have buckled and possible her keek would have broken. Britannic hit a Seamine which causes many watertight doors to be damaged titanic would have the same problems and it would have sunk much faster.
rct3LP literally said it all, Titanic was almost doing full speed, a ship with that size and momentum would not only smash its whole bow, but the impact would cause all the plates (which btw remember these ships were not weld built) to loosen up and allow water to go in from further down the ship. People need to stop thinking hitting it dead on would have been okay. And also what goes through someones mind to hit and iceberg dead on when they were so close to avoiding it?
Jeff Brister marconigraph.com/titanic/faqs/faqs6.html
It was estimated that the ice berg weighed appox. 2 billion lbs. (two thousand million lbs).. The Titanic weighing in at about 100 million lbs, and was going 25 MPH. Do the math. Even if it survived the collision, there would have been hundreds, if not a 1000 or more very serious injuries upon impact....
@@TheMarineGamerIGGHQ Titanic was absolutely well built: it didn't need to be poorly built to buckle from the theoretical impact of a head-on collision. That type of force would smash any ship regardless of its quality.
Lad it’s Fredrick Barret not Fredrick Fleet
A slip of the tongue. I corrected myself a moment later.
Ah, I see.
45:37 coincidence.....I THINK NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
45:45 for personal reference
45 too many ads
Not RAM the berg...BUMP it. Stop the ship...it'll take a bit to slow down but it won't be sailing into an iceberg at 22 knots. AND.... maybe I'm being an idiot for taking a movie's word for something, but in the tv movie (George C. Scott as Cpt Smith) he did make a good point. *"NEVER TURN YOUR BROAD SIDE TO DANGER"*
How fast would the ship have been moving after it was stopped? I guess that's a big issue. Then... there's the issue of NOT being able to anticipate how big the berg was BELOW the waterline. That's where the majority of the berg is. So the inability to see the berg in time hindered how wide a berth they needed to get around. It was just STARTING to turn when it scraped the ship. That was one NASTY scrape.
Johanna Oznowicz aka Fuzzy Bunny Slippers If they didn’t have time to completely port around it then how the hell would they have had time to slow her down quickly enough to not hit the berg? Or am I misunderstanding your statement? There was the mirage effect that unfortunately did not allow them to see the berg until less than a minute from the collision. Less than a minute is not nearly enough to stop 46,000 tons of inertia going 21 knots.
11 ads come on fellas you’re better than this
Hiiiiii
LOL
11 mid roll ads! Come on fellas you’re better than this
38:02 when in James Cameron’s film did Bill Paxton’s character say that the rudder was too small?
After Jack and rose kissed on the bow it goes back to the present day with old rose
At 20:55 you say that Fredrick Fleet was an engineer in boiler room 6 ???? NO .
I mispoke. It's Frederick Barrett, as we correct 30 seconds later.
... .... ... titanic honor and glory are dead to me
@@geraldinewoods254 why?
@@bobbybobby7943 they messed up names
They could have saved it if they kept going forwards, and reversed the port propellor
What evidence has led you to that conclusion?
Jay Rohwer Um... ah... heh... uh... um... ah...
.... When Britannic did the same thing it barely turned her 5 degrees
30th
Why is this so dark? Take a look at the original.
dudes, are you guys stoned?! LOLOLOLOL
No titanic can survive head on collision
Nope, she can't.
I reackon they still could of saved the ship full 22 knots reverse engines as they had done to both Olympic and Titanic in Belfast during the sea worthy tests and those where 1/4 mile test and smaller the reversal could of brought the ship to a dead stop or to like 5 knots momentum then they could of gained mobility later once clear bow of view of ice I've done some sailing myself it could be done.
The problem is that they can't just throw the engines into reverse. And if I recall correctly the Iceberg was within 1/4th of a mile when spotted.
Don't think 22 knots in reverse was possible as only the center propeller had a reversing mechanism, IIRC.
Timothy Horning It's not.
Timothy Horning however Olympic did it during the water worthy tests and she had the same piston engines as titanic
The only thing that lets reversing a ship down given how close the iceberg was is the momentum given the weight and size of the ship reversing won't slow it down right away but even if we say the ice berg was 1/4 mile away reversing the engines could theoretically slow it down dramatically like the water worthy tests in Belfast possibly preventing massive damage so IF we say fleet spots iceberg Murdoch throws engines into full speed reverse that's roughly 1,300 ft from iceberg or 400 metres enough to slow her down maybe even avoid hitting the iceberg. Cause we know from Olympic with her tests she can make abrupt stops don't see why Titanic couldn't have done similar to those water worthy tests
Please cite sources. If only for curiosity's sake. You bring up this simulation of the Titanic ramming the iceberg head on, but don't really lead anyone to it. Could you present please? You're historians, not bloggers.
We're a video game team, not historians. So in a sense, these are blogs.
AdmiralStarbone Parks Stephenson talked about this on an article on his website, Go check it out marconigraph.com/titanic/faqs/faqs6.html
@@TitanicHG Historians or not, it wouldn't harm to cite sources. We all want to widen our knowledge.
Like most real modeling ship modeling a a real specialty. The cost of making a simulation from that type of model is anything but trivial. As the Honor and Glory commenter said earlier- they are a video game team and not experts in Ship design and Marine Engineering. I thought that pretty obvious from the commentary. Some of the personal chatter was boring and I would like to hear more from the others in the group but i am also glad for their passion.
The solution was to slow down after the SS Californian warned them.
It's fine tune time guys. if you're going to hold a pod cast about shit ppl already know your one rule is to provide quality information and resources, or at least something new or different! I'm not an ass and I'm still liking and subscribed as well cuz it was still a lot of work so its cool keep doing your thing just better.
Here is Matt's 37 second video (:
czcams.com/video/2TAX0bgWIps/video.html
Great videos guys Killin it as always
Maybe in my old age I can add my name to the hundreds of authors who wrote Titanic book with all of this information.
I'm not really a fan of Tom's drinking, and bringing attention to it. We're here to discuss a disaster which happened and killed a lot of people, and is a subject very close to our hearts, including the fellow of TH&G, which I know. Tom you can do whatever you want in your private time and space, but bring a little less attention to it during the podcasts. Thanks.
I know this is a late reply, I just wanted to say that I completely agree
I like the whole conspiracy theory version. Makes sense. Some of the pictures I've seen show moderate signs of something fishy happening. And then there is the fire which probably had more to do with the sinking than the iceberg (judging by the frequency of these types of collision which is virtually 1).
You may like the theory, but it's long since been disproven (and repeatedly, because conspiracy theorists usually pick and choose their evidence. If you look at all available evidence, you will see that it's 100% impossible.
Titanic: Honor And Glory I hate these conspiracy theorists.
I have seen a few of these podcasts and I don't think they are personally that good. I have much respect for the game and what they are creating but to be honest I think the podcasts are not that great to me. And Tom does most of the talking in almost all of them, which I wish the others would talk more instead of nodding their heads or agreeing with what tom said. Maybe Tom is the main historian or spokesman for the game? I was certainly not swayed in my opinion toward Ismay by Tom, although as I have said many times before that is my opinion based on a number of factors. For me a lot of this stuff I already know, its just a review course.
Well these are not organized podcasts. They're a REALLY small team and they spend days and nights working on the game, these podcasts they just jump on and do to interact with the community a little. Like a little tea break with everyone while but with a theme, whether thats about titanic, the game, etc. So yeah as an ACTUAL podcast its not exactly fantastic, but its not really meant to be
Thanks that clears thanks up a bit!
Ya, I felt these anniversary podcasts for this year were not that good and quite repetitive actually, but I'm still glad they did them.
Doug Ross I'd watch their real-time sinking podcast, it's much better and they better explain why Ismay wasn't at fault. It's a shame that so many people jump to the popular "Ismay was a coward" opinion without doing much digging into his motives and actions that night and the following days on the Carpathia.
I don't think he is a coward, but I do believe he made a bad decision, given his position and influence as Chairmen of the White Star Line in the Edwardian Era. My personal belief is that he was scared and had to make a quick decision on wether to stay aboard like Thomas Andrews did or save himself by boarding the last launchable lifeboat. I also read the American testimony and listened to the youtube play of the testimony and he even says himself that he simply stepped into the boat when it was in the process of being lowered. Yes, he helped many women and children into the lifeboats, as did Thomas Andrews.
This is the only boring thing I've ever watched about the Titanic.