NEW Facts About the Dead Sea Scrolls Fragments (w/ Dr. Craig Evans)
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- Are the Dead Sea Scroll fragments modern forgeries? Or is there another side of the story yet to be told? For the first time, Dr. Craig Evans-a distinguished professor of Christian Origins, and on the board of the Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation-reveals his belief that the vast majority of the contested fragments are genuine. We also discuss two other archaeological mysteries, including the James Ossuary.
WATCH: The Facts Behind the New Dead Sea Scrolls Discovery ( • The Facts Behind the N... )
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@Dr. Sean McDowell you do realise that I have to respond to this, I hope. If you wanted to have a chat in person I would be open to that. This is not an apologetic issue-this is about the quality of scholarship and our responsibility as academics in public discourse.
Quality in scholarship is definitely an apologetics issue. Saw you on testify. Great talk. Thanks.
Kipp is a legend
Are Christian Apologists concerned with truth or scholarship? If they are, I haven't seen any evidence of it. I suspect a PhD in Apologetics is not unlike a PhD in Used Car Salesmanship.
In America, we are about to enter a retrograde phase; the bible will be required reading soon. It's a scary place to live, I barely recognize my country anymore. I know many are with me, and we will never give up. Thank you for fighting the intellectual battle. Never give up!
@widescreennavel where in this country do you live? That's the last thing I could ever see happening here. Required Bible reading from who?
This interview was pretty shocking for all the wrong reasons. In the first place, we should all be very careful about accepting on face value the claims coming from the Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation, who already has a vested interest in the authenticity of these scrolls fragments, having been intimately involved in brokering their sales over the past couple decades.
Second, Prof. Evans seems to suggest that I and the team of scholars with which I was working never thought to compare the fragments in private collections with the authentic fragments in Israel. While it is true that the same battery of forensic tests have not been conducted on the original mss-the IAA has up to the point of my last involvement in 2020 declined the same types of examinations-we have done everything within our power to ensure that we know everything we can about the physicality of the originals. I and my colleagues have collected literally hundreds of photographs under microscope of the original mss, with specific close attention to the same features as observed in the suspected forgeries. Several similar features are extant, yes, but nothing even remotely close to what has been studied in depth, reported and published of the suspected forgeries. In addition, we have conducted examinations of other fragments from the same region and period as controls on our investigations. The suggestion that we had not ever even bothered to "look at the unquestionably authentic scrolls" is, frankly, a little insulting. As if this is something no one bothered to do.
Third, I find Evans's theory about the dry parchments for purity concerns absurd. The level of deterioration and obvious age of the leather used for the suspected forgeries at the time of their inscription is orders of magnitude higher than for anything we see in the authentic mss. These fragments are fundamentally different from everything in the original finds. In fact, there remain unresolved questions as to whether the suspected forgeries are even parchment, since their physical and chemical composition appears much closer to that of leather used in antiquity for shoes or wine skins, etc.
Prof. Evans has puzzlingly pitted himself against the strong stream of academics-palaeographers, scribal specialists, physicists and chemists-who are in quite strong agreement that most of the non-provenanced fragments in private collections like Schøyen's, MOTB, APU, and SWBTS are in fact modern forgeries. Evans is a fantastic New Testament scholar, but the last time I checked, he is not a scientist, nor an archaeologist, and not a specialist in Jewish palaeography.
Finally, I don't know why he insisted on concealing my identity for the interview. It is not like any of this is a secret. I have been widely publicised for my part in the handling and study of Dead Sea Scrolls forgeries. I am also mystified that if Prof. Evans indeed has new information, a testable theory or data of any kind about the authenticity of the so-called "post-2002 Dead Sea Scrolls-like fragments," then why is he revealing this here, and not publishing it in an academic journal?
Yeah, this is a bewildering interview, to say the least.
As by far the most relevant response, this should be pinned so people have context from someone about whose work (among others) Dr Evans is talking
Please contact Sean to see if you can come on to discuss.
I have never heard of this debacle (and I bet many others also) and this is very interesting.
Do you know what he is talking about at 14:00 about this Weston?
@@OnTheThirdDay Weston W. Fields is the founder and chair of the Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation-a private organization with no official academic affiliation. For years this organization raised money to help with research and publication costs of the Discoveries of the Judaean Desert series-the official publications of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The series ended in 2010.
Since at least 1996 Fields has been intimately involved with the brokering of sales of Dead Sea Scrolls fragments to private collections-many of which have now come to be viewed as modern forgeries. Fields also runs a business making sets of museum-quality replicas of three of the scrolls found in Cave 1Q.
@@DrKippDavis not necessarily your area being related to the ossuary, but at 33:18 Evans says Oded gouged the engraving which doesn't make sense, why do that unless you're trying to hide something? It has no traceability until it's in his hands and he's willing to tamper with it so it's authenticity can't be confirmed has to me it can't be trusted. Evans himself seems way too credulous for anything that will confirm his beliefs, maybe I'm too cynical.
As someone who is very closely connected to this story, I am very interested in watching this. The fragments in private collections may be authentic (I don't think so), but even if they are I think the type of investigation and scrutiny that my work has encouraged is beneficial for the possibility of future discoveries, and in the end helps tremendously to ensure the protection of cultural heritage and archaeological sites.
I can definitely see why you would be interested. Care and caution is always good. This is an interesting development and it will be fascinating to see where the issue goes from here.
@@SeanMcDowell it is unfortunate that this was pre-recorded. (But, I get it.) The people in Norway that I have worked closely with on these fragments are kind of freaking out about this, and the fact that Prof. Evans is drawing on the credibility of the DSSF to vouchsafe claims of authenticity is seriously problematic.
@@SeanMcDowell The other response of Kipp should really be pinned. Would you do that? (Or have Kipp come on to respond?)
It would be very damaging if this became the story, especially since Evans even goes out of his way to say this is now certain, when you asked him. It's not good for the apologetic community you reach, especially since this will be viewed as coming from a very credible place (both you and Evans have very high stars).
To me this seems to be the same type of issue we had with Habermas and P137, but seemingly with less substance...
Gotta love Kipp using this opportunity to give a shout out to himself 🤣🤣🤣
@@reevertoun I mean, half the video is about my academic work. Would you seriously expect me to not say something?
I love Craig Evans and all your archaeology interviews.
Dr Kipp Davis' first comment below and the following discussion should be pinned. Dr Davis is the unamed person mentioned by Dr Evans early in the interview. Dr McDowell is aware of Dr Davis comments. The fact that the comments are not pinned is curious indeed. If McDowell was interested in genuine academic debate then he would surely want Dr Davis response front and centre. Or perhaps Dr McDowell will Interview Dr Davis and give him the right of relpy.
Neil - Don't hold your breathe - Sean has no interest in scholarship or integrity - only his tribalistic passions
Also, I think his flesh is all pissed off because Dr Kipp exposed the fraud that his dad is.
Man this one is jammed with fun stuff. Great video.
Love your videos
SEAN, It would be great if you had Kipp Davis on to talk about a whole bunch of stuff relevant to your CZcams discussions.
Not spazzing out in the comment section of every Christian's videos and tweets would probably be a good start. All that money spent just to be a reply guy? Ouch.
This makes alot of sense. The process of writing religious texts today, as in ancient times for the Jewish people is one that has not changed and they have very specific rites and requirements for the medium with which the scribes write on. And not wanting pagan Egyptian papyrus, regardless of how good it is, is still pagan. Of course the Jewish people, or the "Essenes" a branch of Judaism at the time would have such requirements for their religious texts.
Any update on the Dead Sea Scrolls stuff?
In case you failed to notice @Dr. Sean McDowell, I have released a thorough response to all the distortions and disinformation from Craig Evans about the Dead Sea Scrolls that were featured in this video. I think the prudent, responsible thing to do would be to address these.
This reminds me a bit of Daniel Wallace's embarrassing attempt in 2012 to ambush Bart Ehrman mid-debate with the (later proved erroneous) announcement that a 1st century fragment of Mark had been found. Especially in the fact both big-surprise claims became public in a fairly sensationalized way, in an apologetics-oriented rather than a scholarly forum, with other scholars in the field blindsided rather than having been collegially approached or having heard about it via scholarly publication. Something of a disappointing surprise from a scholar like Dr Evans.
Time will tell. However, I don't like these kinds of surprises by anyone as they cannot be vetted (said by a Christian).
It just amounts to an unverifiable claim and the audience or public at large cannot even get a scholarly well-thought-out counter position.
Kip in the comments is apparently a scholar and is expressing his alternative opinion (and is apparently the unnamed person in the beginning of the video).
Right? Sean has to know about the fakes his father was involved with.
@River's Woodshed ,
Not familiar.
Which fakes?
@@EternalVisionToday Check out the video called "Josh McDowell: Manuscript Hunting and Mythmaking for Jesus" on the Kipp Davis channel.
@@riverswoodshed,
Thank you!
Will tee it up!
It's truly bizarre that so many biblical scholar "firsts" are reported on some podcast with an implied "trust me bro." You guys know this isn't how real scholarship is done right?
Are you aware of the tremendous resistance to changes in the standard of ANY field?
Good stuff!
I always assumed the professionals had looked at the manuscripts under a microscope.
It just goes to show scholars today need to humble themselves when it comes to assessing what manuscripts meant to the living generations that produced, knew each other, and had the complete documents.
Western Christian leaders are too busy learning new techniques in defrauding the flock for money.
If you accept what Kipp Davis says (the former student that Evans didn't want to name) you will see that scholars have always looked at the scrolls with microscopes.
They do...
Important story about possible fakes being forged. Facinating about James' tomb. McDowell, once again, has his finger on the pulse of what's important, relevant, news worthy, and dear to Christians hearts. Love this guy. Inspired and soboring. Thank you so much Prof McDowell! You seem to have chosen the perfect guest in Dr Evens. Great talk, great guest, great show. God bless you both.
Wow these are some really kind words thank you!!
I really enjoy listening to your interviews while I’m working, thank you for your devotion to providing great informative content that’s Christian based!!
That's great to hear!
Peek ah...boo...
I'm ba.....ck
A= B is impossible BEAVIS
Sean A non-pacifist is saved = B pacifist is saved
Drink some more stupid BUTTHEAD or should I just tell you like the OT. Eat DUNG AND DRINK YOUR OWN PISS FOOL.
ISAIAH 53:9 ...because he JESUS, he had done no VIOLENCE nor lie.
Amazing Jesus obeys thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not lie. Your Dad is going to chew you a new asshole when your in hell. I have told your non-pacifist piece of shit lying sack of shit Dad. Think I am angry? Oh my anger is evil yours is non-evil, get a rope, A=B, impossible for Anger to be BOTH GOOD AND EVIL. ACCORDING TO YOUR TEACHING, Either anger is good or non-good it the truth
A isn't=to B, twist this to your own destruction dude. I dare you.🤣❤🤩
I understand that Dr. Evans has a long history with the scrolls, but genuinely curious, does Dr. Evans have a specialization in something like paleography or epigraphy? Just wondering since aside from issues of provenance, my understanding is that the majority of fragments (at least high profile ones) considered counterfeit have been subjected to paleographic analysis, which, if this is the case, would mean he's contesting that analysis.
"does Dr. Evans have a specialization in something like paleography or epigraphy" - No.
"if this is the case, would mean he's contesting that analysis" - Possibly. Let's see what he says first. I studied with him, and though he often spoke of disciplines in which he was not credentialed, he VERY consistently cited his sources even in conversation. I agree with your logic that if the disputed MSS are too new to date from the Qumran community, they can't be authentic. I think he would agree with you. What he may do, however, is cite experts that have been muted in popular discussion of these fragments. I'm very curious to hear what he says.
Could you have Dr. Jutta Jokiranta on? She's an Old Testament scholar at the University of Helsinki and a leading scholar in the study of Dead Sea Scrolls.
Isso é maravilhoso. Glória a Deus pela vida de Craig Evans e Sean.
Que bom em ler um comentário aqui no canal do Sean de um outro cristão brasileiro!
Thank you Dr Evans - thank you, Sean.
And thank God someone called out Wikipedia, at last!
Yeah, I guess. But nobody, including secular scholars, would actually consider wikipedia as a valid source of information. Even public schools don’t allow it as a valid source in reports etc. The general public can enter info in Wikipedia. Not just scholars, etc. There’s really no need to “call it out”. It’s simply not a valid resource to begin with. It’s just a shared internet ‘document’. Lol
@@bryanh3057 Not everyone knows that. It used to be taken as 'gospel' but I guess now, people see through it and how biased some of the entries on there are and how some are deliberately against some further still are, the subject they're reporting on, such as calling ID "pseudo science".
Awesome discussion!! Thank you for this!!!!
A side comment regarding crockery (impure) being smashed, but stone vessels being uncontaminated were especially desired. In the 1st Century the Jews especially were obsessed with ritual purity. One of the sources for stone was the chalk next to Nazareth. Jesus “
Father was a “tekton,” a “maker,” so did he work carving the chalk rock into “purity vessels.” Was Jesus, the “pure vessel” busy with his father making “pure vessels?” Which is kind of visually “poetic.”?
As one scholar I know would put it, I think Dr. Evans is speaking "outside of [his] wheelhouse." That is, he's speaking outside of his area of expertise, which makes his information on the subject of the DSS suspect to begin with.
Frankly, I think I'll stick with Dr. Kipp Davis, since this is very much IN his "wheelhouse." While he doesn't address it here, I've seen him tackle the issue of ink in cracks. And it's not just whether or not there's ink in the cracks, but the incredible extent of the ink in the cracks on the forgeries. In other words, there are substantial differences between the actual DSS and the forgeries that are being glossed over.
Sorry, Sean, but this is not a good look for you, or for the Christianity you represent.
If you missed it, I uploaded a one-hour response to this video on my channel a couple weeks ago.
This was a great interview! I would be curious to know which books of the Bible the fragments in question are from and how it might impact our understanding of either what Scripture says or how early we can date these leather pieces - are they older than P52, for example?
Perhaps in a few months' time, when they've had a chance to confirm their authenticity, we can get another interview to discuss these things! 😁
Controversial hot-take: about the James Ossuary, if that is legitimate, then it really does answer the interpretation of "brother of Jesus" found throughout the New Testament. Catholics insist that these brothers (James, Joses, Jude, and Simon) are cousins from either Mary's or Joseph's sister. If the ossuary really is the James talked about in the Bible (and Josephus 20:200), then it's claim "Son of Joseph" really would put that to rest. Perhaps the Eastern Orthodox narrative could still be correct (that these brothers were Joseph's sons from a previous wife before Mary), but it would be a strong argument against Catholicism.
Given this case, it could play into why media outlets don't want to address the authenticity of the ossuary. Not only would they be offending Jesus mythicists, but they would even be offending the biggest, wealthiest, and politically most powerful denomination of the entire Christian faith, -probably the biggest organization in the entire world. The only positions they would be saving face with are Protestants and Eastern Orthodox, neither who really view it as very significant. Beyond that, atheists, Muslims, and Jews would be completely neutral to it.
So Sean, do you buy this? Honest question.
@chatonwhatsapp5029 Somehow I don't think you are actually Sean. Say hello to India for me though. Sean, you probably need to block him.
Is there a reason people can’t do Radio Carbon testing on the ink itself?
Would that take care of everything?
This was amazing! I am still undecided on the Jehoash Inscription, but hearing this type of support for the James Ossuary was very encouraging. The new DSS theory was also fascinating. I think this is one of my favorite interviews you have done thus far!
8:49 That's depressing to hear.
Sean, I love your work and I've watched many of your Apologetics videos in the past that got me hooked! Keep the research coming man, I love learning more about the archeological, scientific and historical evidence! God's Word truly is alive and active.
Thanks so much!
Absolutely fascinating interview, Dr. McDowell
Glad you enjoyed!
Peek ah.....boo.....
I'm back A=B, you and your Dad never really say self-defeating statements are A=B, it took my heavenly Father to teach it is not possible and use the equation. Your worst nightmare.
So PhD Sean is the true?
A Sean teaches being war is just and unjust = B Bob teaches war is unjust, Ding,Ding,Ding, New York City, get a rope
A=B is impossible
A isn't=to B
Sean A war is just and unjust isn't=to Bob B war is unjust. One of us is a Liar=Evil Non-liar=Good Theif=evil NON-THIEF=GOOD
That PhD cocksucking White screams for the DEATH PENALTY. And, both you lewd fellows of a baser sort are MENDACIOUS JACKLEGS. FUCK YOU SEAN. Yea I am pissed and no pussy like your GANGBANGING ASS. SHEEZZ. Apologize Sean, I am sorry for CUSSING YOU OUT but your a liar now because you have been taught. What a pathetic human being or should I say SWINE.❤🤩🤣
Even if we stipulate the dead sea scrolls in the various collections are authentic (they aren't), and they were perfectly translated into your favorite bible (they aren't), this does nothing to address the question of whether what they say is actually true. It merely says that the writings existed way back then, nothing more.
If the leather "Is" considered genuine by the experts on its age. My question would be: How does someone today find or
purchase 2,000 year old leather with which to create "fake" version of the dead sea scrolls? And if somehow you did, would not the cost of that leather be crazy expensive? But the odds that anyone would have 2,000 year old leather in their shed is kinda crazy in its theory. Don't see that happening.
Yay! Thank you!
Sean you are the man! Your work and ministry reaches our millions and helps me to make my faith stronger!
Sean is just looking for click-bait discussion my friend...
Why not try some real scholarship - Dr. James Tabor, Bart Ehrman, Kipp Davis - the list is long.... You won't find it here.
This was too cool!!!!!!
For people interested in the details of the scandal around the "Gospel of Jesus' Wife" forgery, there's a good book called Veritas: A Harvard Professor, A Con Man and the Gospel of Jesus' Wife by Ariel Sabar. It's quite a fascinating and disturbing story
10:08 I was first thinking the human DNA from the people 2,000 years ago, but then realized it was probably the DNA from those who discovered and handled it.
What Evans is evading is that the initial items that caught the teams skepticism was not the cracked leather, but the poor lettering that would have never been done by a scribe, letters written as though they appear to purposely avoid imperfections in the leather which you don't see on other texts found there, and sentences written at odd angles showing very poor skills, again not scribal work level you see in other dead seas scrolls. Then you add the fact that there is deep ink pooling which which you don't find on other dead sea scroll texts as their pooling was very minor and the leather not has old when written upon. All of these things were factors in the team's conclusion on the authenticity of the fragments, not just leather questions. I am curious if Dr. Evans will state publicly if he is a trained dead sea scroll scholar and whether he has ever gone to Israel and viewed dead sea scroll fragments from the Qumram caves under a microscope. I ask because the idea of just looking at a few sheets of leather from dead sea scroll texts and comparing them to the leather on the Norway fragments is not how science is done. That's how we in the cattle call half assed things. And to insinuate that politics should be involved is why the U.S. ranks near the low in education because you want to spend time trying to bring politics into science where it doesn't belong. And the pandemic is a perfect example where a president of a large country doesn't listen to science and 100,000's of people's blood is now on his hands. If we were to leave science in the hands of people like Dr. Evans, I would certainly feel sad for this country. I think, Mr. McDowell, you might want to get more investigating done on guest before you have them come on or they will make you look bad to your audience, though I don't know your show or audience, this is just a topic that interests me in a scholarly way as I am not a believer (full disclosure).
Hey Sean, What is your honest opinion?
I saw the Dead Sea scrolls when they were brought from Israel to the museum in San Diego- one of the museums,...I think it was the museum of science... The entire day was spent going through a wonderful audio and visual walk through tour of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were there and that we could view in person from where they were presented under glass.; and some of them, a significant amount of them were in the open , and was blessed with being able to scrutinize both the ones under glass and the ones in the open. and, was moved to pray while stopped and gazing at a few of them, especially one of them under glass, and God spoke on my heart while at one of them, and answered the prayer that I prayed. The entire thing was amazing to me, and know that was left feeling that coming ans spending time with the Dead Sea scrolls and the Holy Trinity , amongst the many others that came to see them , that seeing them changed me . ( The organizer from church let me ride with him from San Juan Cap. to San Diego museum, told me to go ahead and keep the audio device as no one was there to receive it as we were leaving the museum at the finish , ....and that it was okay to do so. To my devastation, after leaving and on the way back to SJC, he informed that we are supposed to leave the device in the hand of the person that was absent to receive them at the finish, .....- he had purposefully deceived me , as Judas Escariot to me. Upon arriving back to town , in taking the time to find out how to contact the museum , Dead Sea scroll tour rep.... within the same week, phoned them , and was able to speak with someone , and informed of the humiliation and attempted demise of my integrity , character and Christian faith and relationship with God Most High , and inquired how I could get the device to them, (as am without a car) the right party , and she kindly gave me the information for me to be able to send it to them. Then, when next I saw the man 'Judas E.' at church , spoke with him about what he had done to me , and to the Dead Sea Scroll event peoples , and he conveyed as being without remorse, therefore to me , a wolf in sheeps clothing, and or a person who attends church , but is actually unsaved, a sinner,... who seriously sinned against me , therefore against God.
Forgive me but you don’t have the authority to condemn someone. We are all sinners.
More than what Corey has said, get over your pride.
Mistakes were made.
You don't need to get stuck in your hyper feelings.
You did what you could to put it right.
Let the rest go.
Great info! Dr Evans makes antiquity sound fascinating!
So, according to Simcha Jacobovici this Box was missing from the Talpiot Tomb. The "family tomb of Jesus" Is that true?
So what does it matter for Christianity if these fragments, sold illegally to a cillector, are fake or real? It´s the same stuff you find in many copies on the original scrolls. The title is just a click bait.
Love this interview super interesting!!!
I loved this!!!
Great video
I'm glad it is you Sean to bring this info to your show cause I trust you. Thank you
CLS - Your trust is misplaced - may I encourage learning from actual scholars
I have a prayer request: Please pray that the Lord would guide me to the truth. I am a Southern Baptist who is for the first time in his life is considering Catholicism. I just want to be guided by the Spirit and led to the truth. Please pray for me!
Salvation is by Faith Alone in Jesus Christ Alone See Ephesians 2:8,9 Catholicism teaches Faith Plus Works, you can never work your way to heaven, Jesus Paid it all. Either you completely rest in Him for your salvation or you will never be saved, because you can never do enough good works. All our righteousness is as filthy rags.
@OkieAllDay - I think it’s a bit more complicated of an issue than Grand View Baptist Church states. I’d recommend viewing Gavin Ortlund’s CZcams channel, “Truth Unites,” and remain a Protestant. Gavin himself is a Reformed Baptist ...
"I just want to be guided by the Spirit" - Here's your answer. If you become Roman Catholic, your guide must be the Magisterium, not the Spirit.
Follow the truth, study history and let the truth guide you through Jesus Christ.
Of coarse I will pray! God bless you. I did pray and will pray again. God bless your heart for seeking God's will.
Ask him about the shroud of turin
I just recently heard (I don’t remember where…I listen to a ton of CZcams videos) that James, brother of Jesus, was not really named “James” but something else (I can’t remember what…some other “J” name), so now I’m confused. Can you clear this up for me?
In Greek James is Ἰάκωβος or "Jacob" -- it underwent transformations in later Latin, French, and English where it eventually became "James".
Like father like son, when it comes to fraud.
Exactly what I was thinking - Sean has his grift going as well as his dad - not dissimilar to Daniel Kolenda
Great interview!
I pray God leads us to the truth on this issue and that we keep Jesus first regardless of varying stances. :)
Have you ever thought about making videos of discussion-highlights? :)
They could almost act as trailers, yknow? :D
This has been great! I loved it. I'm still skeptical of the James Ossuary. It just seems too fantastic. I'm also not so sure about an ossuary sitting on a secular Jew's bookcase and he never asked what was written on it. I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm sure there are plenty of Jews who know little to nothing about Jesus.
How much Jews know about Jesus is surprisingly little. They do not talk about Him in the synogogues, and the only time the Rabbis mention Him are when asked about Him (to which they immediately then know the person is asking because they've been talking to a Christian). Rabbis won't even call Him "Jesus" or "Yeshua" (His Hebrew name), but rather will say "Yesu", often following it up with, "You know whom I'm talking about."
If you ask a layperson-Jew what they know about Jesus, they will say something along the lines, "Oh, he's that Christian guy the Gentiles worship." I've heard them call Him "A Catholic god". They will even be surprised to learn that He was Himself a Jew (they often think He was Italian). They realize that Christians read the Tanakh (Old Testament) and seek to find Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures, but they know nothing about the New Testament. They think it was a book written about persecuting Jews, and don't know that it was written by mostly Jewish people to mostly Jewish audiences.
@@5BBassist4Christ Thx for that. But i still find it funny it would be sitting on someone's bookcase and the string of people before it got there didn't notice this. I don't know its possible. But I think highly unlikely. It isn't even wether a Jew would recognize it or not--even though i made an issue of it. Iti s that its on a bookshelf in the first place and no one ever thought hey maybe we should examine this? I don't know. And it just happens to be the very ossuary of James the Brother of Jesus son of Joseph. Really? Its possible. People get struck by lightning and survive all the time. I think i know someone who was.
Fake or not, does it matter? Do the disputed fragments mention Jesus or anything after His birth?
I also would have liked to know what the contents were. Dr. Evans said that the buyer had issued a request for copies of the Pentateuch, in which case there is virtually no gain here. This would only matter if they contained authentic variant readings. Another credit card sized copy of a stable text is hardly worth the attention this is getting.
Yikes. Dr McDowell should have vetted Dr Evans more carefully before giving him this forum.
No mention of the ink. The skins may be 2k yrs old, but the ink? How now brown cow?
The ink was discussed in great detail. Did you watch the interview?
@@redeemedchannel5580 The composition and dating.
That's total BS and you know it. What specialist releases news like this on a hokey apologist site?
why did you censor southwestern at 15 minute?
at 15:12
@@jnam00 I’m pretty sure it’s just cutting out on its own
Wow! Just a testament to how little we know, how small our brains are and how important faith is.. Holy Spirit will guide us into Truth!
This is one of the most fascinating interviews I've seen in years
Are you thinking that if these scraps in private hands are authentic it somehow changes our understanding of the bible? AFAIK, there are no contoversial readings, except two mistakes, one copied from a 1903 printed edition of the Hebrew bible (refer to Kipp Davis video on the this). The only thing that is affected if these scarps are genuine is their resale value - that matters to the private owners but not to scholars or believers.
Clearing - Why?
Have you reviewed Dr Kipp Davis response?
The last 20 years it's been great to see actual scholars who care taking back the field of biblical archaeology..
In late 1800s even the father of egyptology in petre was on the right track but was disparagarded on every biblical related find.
We should never forget how much set back was created by the Rockefeller backed digs in the early and mid 1900s. What damage was done by the Frankfurt German linages that still dominates most liberal academics that simply work as polymics and if you want a phd you have to go through them most often.
If your as old as I am you know where they had us 50 years ago and to now where we are in knowledge now is unexcusable and definitely unjust .
Its good to remember our predictive ability is even still used in our lives and our sciences today. great minds and philosophers was just one level from being prophetically touched by God in those times.
If anything the gospels didn't use as many past prophecies that came true that they could've used.
The most amazing prophecies they had Like how a son of benjiman was known to come and how that could be the key to how Paul may have been able to step in with authority of an already established ministry is one many correlations they believed in. I assume these where so common knowledge it wouldve been initially why so many followed.
You can pick n choose traditions and interpretations that is better for apologetics vs humanist but the actual tradition that would become Christianity was deeply spiritual and not as practical as many think. This was the big split that the Assyrians caused in 800 bc long before Babylonians but the return definitely displaced the temple and exaggerated the division.
You can read in Solomon how they where it still in it's original form of seeing the soul of others more so than the looks of the exterior.
They definitely was into spiritual warfare.
Depending on synonymous language and interpretation the gospels could've referred to countless other prophecies that they believed to come true.
Sean's face should be a meme: keep bs'ing me and I'll keep pretending i believe you
PS- this is how you intimidate someone into compliance in front of anyone
The dead sea scrolls were outed as fakes almost as soon as they were found.
❤
Craig kind of loses me when he starts talking about the James ossuary. Now he's talking about things I actually know more about. This is not nearly as cut and dry and Craig presents it. Makes me take his comments on the DSS with a grain of salt now.
The fact that he says it is a done deal and we know they are not fake based on the evidence he has presented marks him as either a Christian Apologist or a Charlatan who is trying to drum up sales for a cache of forgeries perhaps for a commission rather than an honest Academic. He has presented absolutely nothing that rises to the level of proof. Also, if he was a real academic, he would have written up a paper, submitted it to a journal for peer review rather than announce it on an Apologists CZcams Channel (sorry Sean, but the process of Academics is the process of Academics).
So many tricks like these methods have been used by catholic monks over the centuries too 😑
I love reading Craig Evan’s stuff! Very important voice in the Church today and a solid dude in public and private.
You are dreaming - he is entirely ego-centric - not interested in genuine scholarship - but he is making a lot of money off the name of Jesus.
I want to know if Sean could lift that Thor's hammer behind him. 😊
We have the war scroll?
🤔👍
Please pin Dr Kipp Davis comment below
Nah, cockamamie. They wouldn't want to write on cracked leather.
Just lies, basically. Even if what he is saying turns out to be true, he is still lying by omission and exaggeration. I can place money on it, that if other members of the people he were researching these documents were here, they would not only take offence at his claims but also provide a reasonable counter argument.
Dr Evans, do you know you can edit and fix Wikipedia articles yourself? Please try it instead of just complaining.
Good topic and I appreciate Dr Davis chiming in. That said, I wonder how long these animal skins sat around and if that has any bearing on Carbon Dating?
I've followed Robert Eisenman for a while and his early 1st Century dating of some of the sectarian scrollsI've always found intriguing.
I don't think that anyone is really disputing the age of the parchment (or at least the leather, which may actually have been from sandals or wineskins), which is the only thing that carbon dating could speak to. I was wondering about ink analysis, as ancient ink would seem to be much harder to reconstitute for re-use than re-purposing ancient leather fragments. There would likely be modern constituents in whatever liquid was used to re-hydrate the dried ink (assuming that the ink didn't undergo some chemical change in drying which would make it impossible to re-use).
@@TamaraWiens very valuable point and valid worry.
The Dead Sea Scrolls make no mention of Jesus, the famous son of god.
I wouldn’t trust Dr Evan’s as far as I could throw him.
ALL FAKE
I seem to remember that you, Sean, have been excited about the earliness of the Mark fragment, disappointed with the news that it may have been a fake, and now cautiously optimistic about it being genuine. Hopefully, all are genuine, but either way, we know that Jesus is genuine!
That's wrong. The issue with the Mark fragment is not its authenticity. It is that it was stolen from the Oxhyrinchus Collection, attempted by a scholar to sell to private collectors as a first century fragment, and then discovered upon its publication that it was actually a third century text, and was not extracted from mummy cartonnage.
As we all have no seen Sean has NOT had the most obvious person on to interview and consider these matters further.
This demonstrates the complete lack of credibility of his channel, the severe lack of integrity in his own person - and exposes what he really is - a huckster, a grifter - looking for clicks and especially the click of his real god - the Almighty Dollar .... sad...
Like father, like son
It’s all BS…
Listening to this video made my suspicious and that a lot of his enthusasim is sensationalism. Interesting to see how this develops. In light of @kippdavis2368 comments will pull this video or have a follow up?
Sean - what does it matter. this does not prove the bible is from a God in heaven! We live in such a matrix of deceit. Whatever, higher power is in charge is having a heyday watching all the confusion especially from the christians. Christians like sean and evans who get paid well and live very comfortably spinning fairytales.
ALL FAKE