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Does John’s Gospel teach that Christ preexisted his human birth? A case for an alternative reading
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- ABSTRACT: The more common opinion is that John's Gospel teaches the deity and preexistence of Jesus very clearly. In this video, reading from my book, Trinity and Incarnation: A Post-Catholic Theology (Cascade 2023), I make a case for a different reading of John's Gospel altogether.
You can buy a copy of my book here:
a.co/d/0fLeBbGZ
Dr. Steven Nemes has a BA in Philosophy from Arizona State University with a minor in Religious Studies (2013), and an MDiv and PhD in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary (2016, 2021). The author of a number of articles, chapters, and books on diverse subjects in theology and philosophy, he teaches Latin at North Phoenix Preparatory Academy in Phoenix, Arizona.
Its great that you are back posting dr.Nemes!!!
@@matthewtkazcyk1388 thank you!
Thanks Steven, I have most of your books. I hope you continue to write and post videos, I have learned alot from you.
@@Cato1006
Thank you for your comment!
Love that comment at the end you made regarding a person's mindset about their eternal destiny.
That is such a governing factor when it comes to the discussion of the topic of Jesus's deity.
Thanks for the time you're taking to do this. Really appreciate it and the logical exegesis you provide.
Thank you for your comment!
If only I could have a free copy of the book.
John 8:58.
Consider this. God re-created himself in human form in order to walk in the steps of man so he could truly feel the way of his creation. And that as he walked earth as Jesus he was able to understand better how his creations acted. As he grew in body he also grew in Spirit until his final climax in order to wash away our sins and salvage us, his creations. Fire and Brimstone was replaced by Water and Forgiveness. I believe that since we are so full of ourselves and lessons learned in the past are being pushed aside due to our continuance as a people. We have forgotten who we really are and have placed ourselves on selfish pedestals. Fire and Brimstone may just be how God will right our wrongs once again. And we will all wish for a return of God in the form of Jesus and his forgiveness.
Good stuff!
Thank you for your comment.
I fascinating video, Dr. Nemes. I’ve always attended Trinitarian churches my entire life, though over the past several years, I’ve come to realize that I am not a Nicene-Constantinapolitan-type Trinitarian. As you’ve identified, there is no language in the New Testament which describes Jesus and the Father as part of a coequal, consubstantial triad, and lots of language which suggests otherwise.
A few questions for you, if you’d be so kind:
Is there room for being a non-Nicene-type (subordinationist) Trinitarian, or do you think one must make the leap to full unitarianism?
As I cannot affirm Nicene-type Trinitarianism (and am therefore a heretic according to mainstream Christianity), is it wrong to continue to attend a Trinitarian church which would affirm the Nicene creed?
Thank you!
Thank you for your comment. In response to your questions:
1. I am not inclined to subordinationist trinitarianism. In my book, I defend a kind of revisionist trinitarianism which has some resonances in Valentinianism and other gnostic-adjacent traditions.
2. I think you should go to church wherever you want, if they’ll have you. I would not cause trouble with others and probably keep my opinions to myself.
@@drstevennemes thank you for your response. I don’t know much about Valentinianism. Is it even possible to briefly sum up in one or two sentences the sort of revisionist trinitarianism you can defend? If that’s too difficult, I understand.
Even though I’ve been a Christian for 35 years (the vast majority of my life), I struggle with the truth of Christianity for several reasons that you have interacted with recently. One being how “orthodox” Christianity seems to have arrived at a post-biblical concept of God, and another being just how very different Christian ethics and virtues are described in the NT in contrast to how YHWH is portrayed in Torah (as your video from a few weeks ago addressed). It all honestly makes me feel like the biblical authors were just making things up as they went. I’m familiar with progressive forms of Christianity that don’t require dogmatics or biblical inerrancy, but I’m curious about what compels you personally to maintain your faith? Why do you believe that Christianity is “true” at all?
Thank you again for your engagement. I sincerely appreciate your work.
You’ve never read language in the NT that Jesus is coequal? Wow. I’ll give you from John to start then I will appeal to the OT, if you’re honest in your response you can keep coming back for more.
John 5:22-23 “The Father judges no one, but has given all judgement to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.”
Jesus is saying honor me as you honor my Father. How do you honor the Father, God Almighty? Worship, glory, praise. He’s saying give the same to the Son. One of the verses this guy ran from is Hebrews 1:8. Why? God the Father speaks to God the Son, “your throne, oh God, is forever and ever.” So not only is Jesus telling you to honor the Son as you honor the Father, the Father is giving Jesus the same worship, glory, and praise.
In every gospel Jesus claims to be The Son of Man, not a son of man, but The Son of Man found in Daniel 7:13-14. A distinct person given a throne in Heaven seated next to The Ancient of Days, another distinct person, and given eternal dominion over all language, nation, and people. This is from an Old Testament passage written hundreds of years before Jesus.
How do you anti-trinitarian grapple with this? The triunity of the Godhead is in every book of the Bible, but it takes “alternative readings” to see around it.
Don’t believe me? Go look at my comment on this video. He runs from my arguments, and I bet he won’t address this either. It’s an open challenge, Steve!
@@jacobfavret1729 it’s someone ironic that the passage of scripture you chose to share demonstrates a clear handing down of authority from the Father to the Son. This is authority is not inherent, as one cannot be given what one already possesses. There are tons of passages like this in the NT, and they all demonstrate that the Father and Son are not “coequal”. The Son is given authority by the Father, can only do the will of the Father, doesn’t know all that the Father knows, and delivers the kingdom to the Father for the glory of the Father. There is clear subordinationist language all throughout the NT.
@@AaronGardner98 Wrong because the Son is eternally begot of the Father. Do you know what eternal means in Christian theology? You would have to make an argument that Jesus is created, so let’s see it. Otherwise your point is null.
Now let’s go back to the text please. What does eternal dominion mean? Daniel is seeing a vision of Heaven, this didn’t happen a few hundred years before Jesus was on this planet it was recorded at that time. So your whole argument is bust, and unsubstantiated. You also don’t address Hebrews where the Father is glorifying the Son who existed BEFORE creation. This Jesus that existed before creation is telling you to glorify Him as you glorify God the Father in Heaven. So try again.
See what I mean about honesty? I can’t move on because you want to stick yourself on your little Unitarian hill that doesn’t exist within the text. Are you arguing for modalism or arianism? You can’t have it both ways, and you certainly can’t make up your own theology. So let’s try again my man.
Jesus claimed that himself. And being that he is God that would be the case.
Perhaps the IQ statement was meant the opposite way you took it?
You are showing intellect by analysing scripture and coming to different conclusions than those who blindly follow what they are told.
Personally I don't think a high IQ is required because God can open up scripture to the simple minded if they have a humble heart. You have been humble enough to look deeper and change your mind about what you believed. Keep up the good work.
@@matthewcunliffe6500
Thank you for your comment.
Humility and anti-trinitarianism don’t mix. The Bible is clear on the triunity of the Godhead. This is why he has to present an alternative reading with the caveat of not addressing specific passages. Go look on my comment that he ran from, let’s see if one of you will be honest.
@@jacobfavret1729
Thank you for your comment.
I address the passages you mention in my book, which I am reading from in this video. I invite you to buy it to find out what I say. I would offer to send you a copy for free, but you are too annoying and hostile. You don’t deserve it.
@@drstevennemes 😂😂 and you don’t deserve to have a platform that spreads lies and misinformation, if you want to play that game. Why don’t you address my comment man? If this is the correct reading you should have plenty of evidence to teach me from. But you can’t because it doesn’t exist, or you don’t want to be caught in a gotcha which is fine. Don’t like my tone? You’re posting on a public platform lies about the Lord Jesus and I’m called to correct you unto honesty and repentance. I wouldn’t read your book anyway man, but like I said if you provide a time stamp I’ll go watch it. But you didn’t, you ran. Surely a doctor of theology (still didn’t answer me on your credentials) can deal with the arguments of a 23 year old self taught apologist. The Truth is impossible to argue against though which is why we’re not going to get anywhere.
“I’m not going to refer to these other texts.” Because they bury your argument 😂
Brother, do you genuinely believe this argument or are you just making it? Do you believe in God? The deity of Christ?
Would you agree that John’s Gospel is not meant to be taken line for line but as a collective? Just to start with the problems you’ve run into: When Jesus refers to Himself as The Son of Man given ETERNAL dominion over all Language, Nation, and People (Daniel 7:13-14) how can you argue the Logos of God, as you appealed to the Greek, is NOT eternal? You’ve already claimed it’s manifestation of flesh IS Jesus, so don’t go back on that. Either you claim the Word of God is separate from God and not eternal, therefore Jesus is created and you run into a whole two millennia of refutation, or you claim the Word is one with God, therefore it has to be eternal which is what the text reads. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Making sense?
What is your degree in? Are you familiar with biblical teachings claiming God hides His revelation from the learned and gifts it to babes? The Bible is spiritually encrypted, you can read the words every day but until God blesses you with revelation it will never make sense. Case in point your almost hour long semantical game that fails to address even the most basic of arguments for the deity of Christ. Can you address Hebrews 1? Or give me time stamp, I can’t listen to this for that long and I apologize. I am genuinely here to learn, but your argument screams lack of honesty. I’m sure you’ve been waiting for a comment that addresses your argument, so fire away. I am far less educated than you claim to be.
@@jacobfavret1729
Thank you for your comment.
@@drstevennemes oh you coward, you’re only here for the guys that stroke your ego? You don’t want to engage with your own arguments? Cmon man, and you claim to be a theologian? Do you know what intellectual dishonesty is, I’m not trying to insult you but you just ran from someone addressing your arguments. Why?
This is the problem with you anti-trinitarian, you have to cherry pick verses and play semantics then when someone comes with a shred of scripture you turn cheek and run. You understand that’s exactly what you did? Everybody saw it.
Why do you have a CZcams channel? You want to callously lie to people or do you want to engage? Please keep my comments so others can read.
@@drstevennemes Steve, can you address my arguments on your page? Can you let us know what you’re arguing for? Is Christ a divine person of the Godhead? Was he made by God? Your followers are confused!
@@jacobfavret1729
Thank you for your comment.
No, I’m not going to address your comments. I’m going to specifically ignore them.
If you want to know what I’m arguing, you can watch the video or read the abstract in the description. If you want to know what else I think, you can read my published works or watch other videos on my channel.
@@drstevennemes Wow so why do you make videos? You want to spread lies about the Lord Jesus? Do you even agree with this garbage or do you enjoy touting your ego to a minority? As you couldn’t think of anything profound enough to write for the Glory of the Triune God.
I’ll check out your other videos but this clique isn’t going to enjoy the way I engage with them. Already have one of the guys stroking you off lying about historicity claiming to know it. Don’t like my tone? Stop lying and repent.