As a 20 yr old pedal cyclist I was stopped for speeding, clocking in at 42mph on a 10 speed racing bike in a 30MPH speed zone. I opted to attend court to explain I had no way of assesing my speed as the cycle was not fitted with a speedo and got off with a warning.
In the UK both the road traffic regulation act 1984 and rule 124 of the highway code state that speed limits relate to motor vehicles not bicycles. However there are local byelaws where speed limits for bicycles do apply and can be enforced e.g Richmond and Hyde Parks in London. One guy was fined £600 for speeding on a bicycle in Richmond Park.
I was driving a car by a school , picking my son up , i was doing the 15 mph , as instucted by the signage of kids crossing , a pdal bike suddenly appeared on my left , swauizing bwetween me and the kerb , trying ever so hard to go faster then all the cars on the school road !!!! aye very clever , sorry i am a peddle bike , i did not know , i did not see or even notice the speed signs , no no , my chance to race past the cars :) Most cyclist will always try and race a car where they can , just to show you can get about just as quick on a bike i a city lolol human nature eh
@@Proper-KernowDangerous Cycling/Riding is what they tried me for, but as the Judge in my case said UNTIL Cycles are fitted with Speedoomter that could NOT be tampered with by the rider it would be inpacticable for the Police to charge a Cyclist with Speeding, BUT if I had be charged with "Reckless Riding of a Pedal Cycle"I would have been found Guilty.
Ebike laws are ridiculously restrictive. We have to get more people out of cars and onto clean green transport, and switching to ebikes is one of the lowest hanging fruits there is. As a daily ebike rider for the last 8 years, in my experience about 2kW and 30mph speed limit is a sweet spot that should be encouraged. The concept of respect for and patience with other road users needs to be drilled into people. Defer to pedestrians, don't ride aggressively or irresponsibly and you won't attract attention. With power comes responsibility! Campaign for change and greater ebike adoption. People should be buying us pints for not clogging up their traffic jams and filling their lungs with filth!
As someone with mobility issues, i had to get an ebike with a throttle. Also 250w Fiido D1 struggles on hills. Need more power! so far no issues from police with regard to throttle as i would say it's basically my mobility scooter (hope that would work)! Great video. The only issue i have is idiots hooning it around, blatantly disregarding the laws .. going wrong way, wheelie in to on coming traffic etc.. That spoil it for all.. But hey idiots in cars, cycles and scooters also.
Have been actively involved in bicycling and motorcycle riding all my adult life. Recently sold my last motorcycle and have installed a mid-drive motor on my mountain bike. Had looked long and hard at the Sun Ron but could not pretend it was an E-bike. For me, it is clearly an electric motorcycle, even with the marginal 'pedal system' . In my mind now, folks are looking for speed, not exercise. but still want to pretend they can move about like when they were kids. How many E-Bike reviews do you see on CZcams where the reviewer ignores stop signs, rides on sidewalks, cuts across park lawns and generally make there own 'rules'. Police can't waste time trying to apprehend E-bike violators. Motor controllers can certainly be modified to squeeze more speed/torque. If the bike is initially purchased with all parameters 'set' by the manufacturer, that at least minimizes the initial number of folks that may need to have a conversation with a Police officer. If you really need to go faster than say 15 mph, get a electric scooter or electric motorcycle like a street legal Sur Ron, get insurance and a license. In the U.S. the E-Bike situation is getting crazy. We have more options, but it seems we have turned the good old bicycle into a monster. In 1973 it was my pleasure to pedal my Schwinn Sports Tourer from San Francisco to Boston. Today I enjoy a mountain bike fitted with a mid-drive motor. Pedal assist 1 and a light steady push easily moves me about just under 15 mph. Makes for a nice adventure for this 74 year old, until a Sur Ron or 1000 watt monster bike blasts by without regard for me or the other pedestrians using the paved path.
There's a shared cycle/pedestrian path by us and in the summer it's absolutely mobbed,I myself use it for both walking and non electric cycling but I've seen regularly ,ebikes, escooters and eskateboards doing 40mph+ , totally reckless and endangering other path users, ultimately spoiling it for ebike user's who use some common sense. Ironically I'm looking to get an ebike as I've been told I need a knee replacement and I can't ride a regular bike anymore.
If a road has no speed limit, is it “destroying it for everybody else” to go faster than someone else? I certainly don’t think so… that’s exactly why they post speed limits for everybody. In my area, a suburb, road limits are 25-30 mph (40-48 kph), multi-use when posted is about 15 mph (24 kph), and shared pedestrian ways (sidewalks) are 8 mph (13 kph). In all cases my eBike can exceed these speeds, but I keep within them to ride with the prevailing traffic, which is by far safer for everyone involved. The only other thing to observe is the priority rules, as in: Cars & Trucks yield to bikes & eBikes, which in turn yield to pedestrians when traveling on shared use pathways. The operating principal is to keep down speed interactions to avoid injury, and provide a better experience. Which is why I find it better to use multi-use pathways rather than country roads, or for that matter heavily traveled city routes with no provision for lower speed lanes off to the side.
I live in an area where our local MTB trails are getting destroyed by surons and dirt bikes. Absolute nightmare ATM. Ultimately, they're dirt bikes and need to be treat as such, they aren't mountain bikes.
It's an odd time for sure. People lose it over these bikes but are OK with 500hp SUV's which can also be driven too fast and dangerously. The future is single person electric vehicles. But the people making the laws are too far away from how much these will transform the way we get about. I have 2 cars taxed and insured and an 800cc Motorbike on the road, but when it's a short journey I jump on my carbon road bike (pedals) which has clocked 45mph plus on a recent trip to the Cotswolds, or enduro mountain bike (pedals), or my Evolve electric mountain board, or my bafang modified hybrid bicycle which has a thumb throttle and pedal assist and hits 40+mph. I've been driving for 30+years, it's strange how my last 2 options are illegal on public roads yet just as sensible as the pushbikes in terms of environmental impact.
@@cjb514 Was there a point there? Before you mention where electricity comes from, I worked for the National Grid, so make sure you check your workings.
@@SimonPass230267 i could be wrong, but i think the biggest thing going against broad legalisation is that while the government does just about recognise the significant shift e-mobility represents, they don't see a clear enough way to making money from it through taxes, penalties, etc. it exploded onto the transport scene so quickly and so globally, their heads are still spinning.
Simon, you make some good points, however the point you've missed is that to drive the 500hp SUV you have to have passed a driving test showing, at least, basic compentency. Same with your motorbike. To ride a bicycle, there is no barrier to entry, other than money. This is lunacy if you're going to have a powerful Ebike in the hands of someone with zero riding experience or worse, zero road sense. There isn't a quick solution to this that will work. If we allow anyone to ride bikes like the Sur Ron then we'll end up with utter carnage. That will then also make a nonsense of the laws we currently have around mopeds.
As you question the legality of a restricted over 250 Watt e-bike in the video you are driving at 30 MPH on a public road. That's why they don't accept restricted bikes because you know your fourteen year old will be riding on public roadways with the restrictions turned off. We had similar rules for age restrictions on mopeds in the '70s here in Ontario Canada with a top speed of 30 MPH and I enjoyed a couple years when I was 14 and 15 with my moped getting about to work and play. Some of the more daring types modified their mopeds to do as much as 70 MPH putting children as young as 11 years old into traffic doing these insane speeds so they changed the laws making mopeds the same as any other motorcycle needing plates and insurance with a licensed motorcycle permitted rider of at least 16 years old.
Europe, UK and Australia are limited to 15mph (25Km/h) but in the land of the free, i.e USA you can legally do 28mph (45Km/h) using battery power. A USA You tuber was pulled over by the Police in California for doing 40mph (65Km/h) and was given a warning, the cop said if you are going to go faster than 28mph, make sure your legs are pedalling or we will treat the e-bike as an illegal motorbike.
A suron. Is an electric motor cycle that is capable of over 60mph. It is in no way an (E-bike #electric assisted ). There has been quite a lot of young men killed on the suron motorcycle no license no training and absolutely no common sense whatsoever if the suron is registered as a motorcycle and insured with a license plate on show with the appropriate equipment then it is road legal the law is very clear on this matter
So… your saying that paying money for insurance, taxes and fees, and slapping a piece of government issued paper on a eBike automatically makes everything ok? Really? People have been killed on virtually anything that moves. Laws don’t make things safer, but responsible people can. In this case it seems more like the “Laws” are simply making responsible people lawbreakers. It sure doesn’t actually make things safer.
I got chased by under covers on pedal bikes near where I live yesterday tried to grab me off without saying anything (I got away), I only ride in secluded places to practice stunts, but the problem is they think everyone that’s got one is a drug dealer, when some us are causing no harm and just want to have fun
My nephew has this bike. He has changed the sprocket to bigger on the back wheel. The cost blow me away but he works hard so he can buy what he wants. He bought better disc brakes. And just ordered better front forks-1.500 a lot of money. When he goes out he said there’s about 7 or 8 of them on these bikes. I have seen it it’s very nice. Good video.
I normally have the full assist at level 5 , going up the steep banks , going to bottom gear with top assist is not enough , i strugle at times on the big hills , But i am thinking a second 250 motor on the front wheel , with its own battery is what i need , if i can a lower assist setting i can extend the range of the two batteries ?
Hey, I listened to your opinion, ive been in the ebike game since 2010, seen all the variations and ridden them all. The ebike pedal assist category was created so that all people can access them. Ive tried them all, according to different regulations all over the world. Ive also tried unlocked normal ebikes. The legal definitions exist to distinguish motor bikes and ebikes. If you are on an ebike thats outside of those rules, then it might be fine for you in practice on the road or on trails, but if my grandmother rides it suddenly it looks different. The 25 Km limit is actually a good thing, as going faster than that down trails is not for everyone, especially where you might meet walkers coming the other way. Or taking a tight corner etc, when you ride with the general public you start to realise there is only a small niche of people that can actually ride at the bikes limit. What you are doing and riding is a motor bike. If you don't have insurance and lights etc then green laning is not good, ride it on a track or closed land course. It's not hard to understand. If you really had the experience with the public then you would realise 98 percent of people don't have the skills to go buy an unlimited powered bike ride around and do their worst. Some of these products risk ruining the fun for everyone. 15.5mph is actually fine, once you go above this you start to realise the motors gearing and power delivery completely sucks after about 18 mph. They are not designed with high speed in mind. You loose torque and fine control after a certain point. For all the "discussion" you are missing that you are a niche... Throttle control on a pedal assist varies around the world in the USA its a class 2, again different rules apply, but again so does the skill level of the consumer, again take this into account when discussing this and realise again you are a niche...
I 100% agree hence making a channel that is all about the Sur Ron. The whole existence of this channel is the niche of owning a Sur Ron. I have 20 odd other videos based around this topic. I am just trying to understand why having a larger motor that is restricted is an issue. Or isn't it an issue? No one has a definitive answer. Just opinions.
Nonsense, I regularly peddle 18 mph (29 kph) just about everywhere. The roads are mostly 25-30 mph (40-48 kph), I slow down where appropriate (busy pathways & sidewalks) depending on PAS (Pedal ASsist) levels & gear choice I can travel higher or lower with ease. Most people in my experience can easily master these pedal speeds with just a little practice.
In France, driver's license states you can drive any vehicle under 11kw without any further tests... You may need helmet and protective gears and insurance but other than that, I'm against the plate
In my opinion mate I ride my talaria every spare minute I have to me Ignorance is bliss and I’ll deal with the hurdle if I ever get caught but as you say you drive respectfully and ride at times and places where there’s not many people i get 95% positivity off people most people are so intrigued when they here it’s electric I feel like these bikes are the future and we’re in the trial faze another great video
hey man can u give me some more info on that im looking at buying a surron light bee x and would love a little more info just to clarify if i should actualy buy it
I think the reason of the max 250w is because most of the 250w doesn't get to that high speeds, even if you remove speed limit. Some of them do but like most hub motors not.
The peddle assist can max assist to 15.5mph. But you can still pedal faster than 15.5 mph, as long as your 250w motor cuts out at 15.5mph. Other Ebikes can pedal assist upto 30mph plus.
15.5mph is the max for assist. The bike isn’t limited to 15.5mph. If you are going downhill or pedalling like crazy on the flat. You can easily double that speed. Legally. Just you need gravity or strong legs.
Find it really frustrating that the power limit is set based on the flatter London Oxford Cambridge areas. 250w does not really help on steeper hills especially with the reduction on the number of hills
One lad yesterday on his Sur-Ron was riding in my local town centre in a pedestrian bike zone only at speeds of 35mph. He missed me cycling on my legal ebike (I slow right down to 10mph because there are other people and dogs) coming in the opposite direction and crashed straight into a tree breaking his leg and wrist. His “mate” came along and rode it off to “stash” it away. Yes, these are the idiots who give Sur-Ron riders a bad name. He’s lucky he didn’t hurt anyone else but himself. That’s why there has to be limits and consequences- it bad use of these Sur-Ron bikes that’s the issue.
Hi, I’m from Midlands UK I’ve got same pedal assist kit, and I say the same, “A Ferrari can go faster than the speed limit but it’s not illegal until you break the law”… Once in eco mode and no throttle by law we are limited to 250w 😎
Or, you could travel within the speed limit regardless of the “mode” or wattage. Assuming of course you have enough power to tackle hills, and reasonably, safely keep up with prevailing traffic, the safest way to travel.
before i got my ado a20 i contacted the department of transport minister at the time asking if it was ok to have a throtle on an ebike i recived an email back saying yes as long as it dosnt propell the bike and rider faster than 15.5 miles per hr
That is surprising given the law says a hand throttle cannot push you with out pedals at more than 4 mph? 15 mph is when the motor should cut off even with pedals you can of course pedal faster but it must be mororless.
I`m confused a road cyclist can easily average 20+ mph and that`s perfectly legal so why is an ebike only allowed to go 15 mph. the rules make no sense
@@talkingebikes exactly. If you need power assist to ride due to an injury, or disability, you just need to keep in your place. Right. Just apply the rules of the road to everybody. Road speed limit. Multi-use pathway speed limit. Sidewalk speed limit. Then add courtesy. Forget about how fast you can pedal, or how much power your chosen vehicle has. Just Drive Safe, With Courtesy, and everything will be just fine.
@@glennoc8585 comparing an eBike to a 125 cc trail bike (like the Honda) the weight difference is profound. And, as to equipping eBikes with common road legal items like better lights (high/low beams) with a lighting level that actually illuminates the road. Turn signals that work, self cancel, and can actually be seen. Better dashboard items, like accessory outlets, a workable horn (and a bell) though bells appear to be a personal choice item. Mirrors, etc. All these things are common on existing motorcycles, small or large. Moot point though, these are showing up now, and the foreseeable future. None of this presupposes that we need, or even want all the trappings of centralized control, electronic tracking, and every other useless weight stuffed on everything nowadays.
Big fan of this sort of thing, BUT... you have to blame a lot of the riders. Walking in Brighton today and some idiot whizzed past me doing about 30mph on the pavement. Honestly, he needed a good thumping. There's a time and a place, and the pavement ain't one of them.
Nothing to do with riders, the laws in this country are extremely strict with every aspect of society, this is a nanny state You can't even drive into a city without paying money. But why follow the law? Iv been driving my 750w 34mph ebike every day for a year+ , driven within walking distance past police they don't care if you drive quiet
@@frostedlambs beg to digger there mate. I live in Brighton and ebikers are always crashing into pedestrians cos the idiots ride on the pavements everwhere and at speed.
I own an electric motion escape (electric trials/enduro) as well as petrol motorcycles. Terminology currently used is confusing - if it's a powered two wheeler, it's a motorcycle and you need a motorcycle licence, end off. In shared spaces, pedestrians will always come off worst.
Very simple for anyone wondering: 1000000% ILLEGAL Only legal if: .Riding on your own private land .Riding on the public roads if you have a CBT or higher + insurance ( + tax and mot 3 years after registration of your surron ) Apart from that, you can ride it illegally like LOTS of people but thats just a headache. Note: Legal electric bikes can reach speeds upwards of 40mph downhill, just like any bike. They do however weigh less but still not an excuse for slamming into a family of 5 on your surron going 45mph..... Everything is dangerous, the law is the law.
Pedal assist is in preset levels on mine…. Each setting gives you a different power, speed… or he faster you pedal, the faster it goes…. Not sure why your pedal assist is like that 🤔
I am a fair weather cyclist, I cycle for 6-8 months of the year once or twice a week, usually 20-50 mile rides, I average over 15mph on long rides and can comfortably reach 30mph on the flat, I have definitely broken the speed limit going down hills...
I can see you point regarding the motor size law. Cars can have different engine sizes, but some makes are part of the "gentlemans agreement" (limited to 155mph). The countries that these cars are sold in have different laws regarding speed limits. Some have higher (Germany on certain roads). It does beg the question why is it the motor power that's the limit. Should it not be the speed? I guess it's a case of whether countries want to integrate other modes of transport or not. If so, then e bikes, e scooters etc need to be managed the same as other motorised vehicles. The pedal assist element though does however cause a grey area in the fact its mechanically propelled to a degree. (there is a difference between motor vehicle and mechanically propelled in UK law). I know I've kinda thrown in a bone of conversation here, be interesting to hear what others think?
You can change the output of the motor by upping the amount of cells in the battery(increase voltage potential). So if you get a bike with a 36 volt battery the watts will be limited to 250 watts, ut you can make it ,ore powerful. Most of them motors will take much higher voltage. Just like gasoline motorcycles come super restricted, but the potential is there to make them a lot more powerful and manufacturers know this. Almost all motorcycles have hidden power that can be unleashed.
Wait so if i buy a off road surron i can ride it anywere if it aint on a road? Like would i be able to bring it to a forest or a feild and it would be legal?
I've got one and gose 45mph I got insurance and it goes in for a chack up every six months because we've got soo many no heads on the roads driving there car's they don't care if they hit you up the a*s or even cut you up and they try to blame you for their stupidity
Most e bike are more than 250w but limited to it. Then have mods that go out of it.. 💯 agree Grey area. If the retailers are getting away with it, it must be grey ;)
My 250watt 36v mountain e-bike can do 22 MPH without any mods before the motor switches off. My other e-bike is 500 watts 48v (a cheap super 73 lookalike) can do 25 - 28 MPH and really it’s not that much different except for the torque. Oh and they both have a throttle.
@@woolychewbakker5277 the title for this video is misleading and now every time somebody sees a proper E-Bike after watching this video, they are going to think “oh that’s illegal it shouldn’t be on the roads”. All this click bait video is going to do is lead to more harassment by police to innocent people in public.
I found this interesting. I am in New Zealand, and here we are legally restricted to 300 watts, no speed limit per se, and we are allowed a throttle. I own two 300w e-bikes, and both have a top speed of about 32 - 34 kph, which is about 20 - 22 mph. Too fast for in the UK, but a more reasonable speed, I feel.
what I don't get, and please help me if you can. I wanna convert my bakfiets (cargo bike). I am currently looking at mid motor drives. but this rule of 250w limits the torque. I need this for a big cargo carrying bike. Will 250watt cut it. One 250w for all bikes of all types is weird. With other road vehicles you have a speed limit but no motor size limit. Feels like having to put a Fiat panda motor in a lorry. but I have not experienced it so any thoughts and tips welcome
honestly mate it will pull it but i highly doubt anybody is going to be able to tell that it's 1000w or however big you want... especially if you put a sticker that says 250w on the motor
Your better off just registering it really its not a e bike its a e dirtbike its not pedal assist either treat it like a moped or a motorcycle insurance plate license
The road legal pedal only e-bikes do not go to full throttle when you start pedalling, you have full modulation on the speed right up to the max 15.5 mph. The Sur Ron might well only go to full throttle when pedalling, I dont have a Sur Ron so dont know.
Yeah, I get it. These are terrific bits of kit. But if your average old granny is capable of whipping along at 20mph or more all day on one of them, then it's absurd that they should be lumped in with conventional bicycles. These need to be in a category of their own, or better, classed as a moped and be subject to the same rules. Unfortunately I'm detecting a hint of the F... You attitude there. Reminds me of the people here in NZ that rip up sensitive sand dunes and any bit of rough land that doesn't have a locked gate on it
@@southcoastsurron Even “granny’s” need to get where they are going safely. They and everyone else need to be able to travel with prevailing traffic patterns, at or just below posted limits. Most people DON’T intend to “rip-up” ANYTHING. Just like most people 30-80+, they don’t necessarily want to ride a bus, unless of course they use it as a connector between bike-routes. Oh, and they own trucks and cars too (that are NOT restricted, power limited, or underpowered), and they don’t rip-up, or ride at anything but in compliance with posted limits.
It doesn't have to be pedal assist. The law just requires that. The throttle should not be able to propel the bike further than 15.5 mph with no pedal assistance.
250 watts is absolutely no use for folk living in hilly areas, and who carry a bit of weight. UK laws on ebikes, scoots, etc, are absolutely ridiculous.
Let me share my perspective. I've been a cyclist for 60 years and been riding motorbike for 50 years since my first moped. I am also a trained engineer with an understanding of physics and the laws of motion. I have yet to get an ebike and experience and motorcycling has impacted how I cycle. The reasons for not having an ebike, yet, may become apparent below. Firstly I will talk physics. It turns out that the force of impact, how much damage is caused if you hit a car or tree, is related to the square of the speed that you are travelling at. What does that mean? If we just focus on the speed bit, if you are going at 10 mph the speed contribution to the impact would be 10 times 10, that would be 100 units. At 15 mph it would be 225 units and at 20 it would be 400 units, 4 times that of 10 mph and nearly twice that of 20 mph. At 30 mph it is 900 units. The amount of force in an impact greatly increases with speed. You can see why 20 mph zones are a good thing for vulnerable road users, the impact force is much less. you can play with real numbers here www.omnicalculator.com/physics/car-crash-force#force-of-impact-definition-impact-force-equation . You will also see on that calculator the heavier you are the more it hurts too! Ebikes in the UK are intended to be used by unlicenced, untrained riders, including children. There are no mandated safety equipment rules. That is because the continuous speed an average cyclist can do is between 12-16 mph, and a 15 mph ebike falls into the manual speed range. The risk and danger is no greater than cycling. You can get faster ebikes, speed pedelecs, but in the UK you need a licence, insurance and must wear a certified crash helmet since they are to all intents and purposes an electric moped. Would you want inexperienced children, riding around on unlicenced high powered ebikes crashing and killing themselves? I don't think so. Next...as I mentioned above forces involved in motion greatly increases with speed. A bike that routinely hits 20-30 mph may be subject to much greater forces and stresses than a bike that routinely hits 15 mph. The 15 mph ebike can be based on standard bike components since standard bike components are designed for an average maximum continuous speed of 15 mph. A bike regularly going 20-30 mph must have stronger wheels, frame, brakes etc. to deal with the increased stresses. This is why speed pedelecs have to be subject to regulation and stricter standards. They may be heavier and less suitable as a pedal only bicycle. Whilst you can put a high power motor in a bicycle frame, the bicycle frame and its components are not designed to take it. The above was the science, the rest is my personal opinion. As a motorcyclist I no longer cycle fast. If I am riding around town, a 20 mph town in most places, on my motorbike, I wear, as required by law, a motorbike helmet. I also wear a protective jacket, gloves and boots. If I have a tumble at those low speeds I have good protection. I realised years ago that I had been hitting 30-40 mph down hill on a bicycle only wearing shorts and a t-shirt, no helmet and no chance of stopping if a car came out a side turning. I have seen the damage caused by accidents at these speeds, it isn't pretty. Since I am not going to wear "all of the gear", to help prevent injury, just to get around town on a bicycle, I decided that I should probably not exceed the design speed of the average human. The average running (typical maximum human design speed) speed is between 8-12 mph. At around 10 mph you are less likely to injure yourself, more likely to be able to stop to avoid the car or pedestrian that appears in front of you. That is how fast I cycle most of the time. Since I don't plan on going fast I don't need a fast ebike. In fact since I have geared my bicycles to suit the hills of Brighton and the South Downs I don't actually need an ebike at all, although I have thought about getting one. If I do get one, a regular 250W/15 mph one will be good enough, I won't be hitting 15 mph. To the point about throttle vs pedalling. I would suggest that if a person does not have the competence to ride a bicycle then a person may not have the competence to ride an ebike of any sort. Stopping in the right gear is a basic part of cycling. We all get it wrong sometimes and it doesn't really matter. It is an inconvenience. Having additional power whilst pedalling is analogous to the dynamics of ordinary cycling. The term for an ebike is EAPC, electically assisted pedal cycle. It is assitance. Having a throttle turns it into a pedal assisted electric motorcycle, there is a difference. There are plenty of street legal electric mopeds and motorbikes out there, some of them are cheaper than ebikes and can carry things like shopping. just look at the electric moped pizza delivery guys. If you want speed, and the additional safety you can get from better tyres, brakes, without getting sweaty, get one of those. A final thought. If you are in the UK have you read the latest Highway Code from cover to cover? If you haven't you really should. You will discover that there is no such thing as "right of way" and that there is something called the Hierarchy of Road Users which defines much more clearly the way in which everyone, including cyclists should behave. I would suggest that if you haven't read it you probably should not be on the road.
What kind of speed are you reaching on the off road areas? I've loved mountain biking all my life BUT I also love walking my dogs and watching the video is giving me conflict because I also hate killjoys BUT what if someone's dog crosses the same trail? So long as you're really considerate and can slow right down and are safe to others who might be out there it's all good. You mentioned you're out when no one else is out there. I walk my dog when i think hardly no one will be out also because it's more fun.
Do you have any idea how many people, with or without dogs cross roads? So in the millions, imagine asking what if someone crossed a road and a vehicle (with or without insurance) hits them? So should we ban vehicles as “dangerous” because they could harm people or little dogs? Regardless when you or your dog walks, you COULD be hit by a car, truck, or even a low flying plane. So that’s it for every animal or pedestrian out there… 🤔😉😎
Great video thank you, do you get any issues from the police? i want to buy one and agree the road legal version is ugly af, but i dont want the off road getting crushed if i buy one
youre comparing sur-rons to unregistered pedal assist bikes, why? a sur-ron is a 125 and has all those rules/laws applied to. You're 100% on the push iron v e-bike speed. 16mph is pedalling a mid gear slowly, most cyclists average 21mph. I get why its so low, its just over a cyclepath speed limit (12mph). brilliant demonstration why pedal assist is dangerous too, some bikes are probably better tuned to actually assist rather than taking over. the laws are dumb and contradictory, they are overly complicated tbh and you made brilliant points
It's assistance up to 15.5mph, not a bicycle speed limit of 15.5mph. You can go faster than 15.5mph if you pedal faster / harder i.e. use it just like a bicycle. I do agree though that the assistance limit should move up to 20mph and a throttle should be legal to only for occasional assistance, so maybe cap the throttle limit lower at 10mph or something, to avoid it becoming a purely motorised vehicle. Pedal assist is absolutely not dangerous and that was a strange comment. Good systems have torque or cadence sensors and the rider has complete control, so it's likely that whatever you have installed is just not a good pedal assist. On power output, I agree you can gear it up, I have 250w with good gearing and I can comfortably pedal at 20mph with little effort and I'm 130kg, so a "normal sized" human will have no problem with 250w 😁 Remember that it's 250w nominal output, not peak, so a good 250w middrive will often peak at 500w+. Personally I think 350w nominal would be ideal, along with 20mph assistance limit and a thumb throttle, but it's not like 250w is detrimental to ride quality. Overall, from this video, what I think you want / are describing is an electric motorcycle and not an ebike. Maybe there is a middle ground where if you get a motorcycle license, then you are entitled to buy ebike up to 5kw with 60mph top speed, so long as it has a registration plate and insurance etc.
Surely the reason for limiting power is to ensure that riders who wish to use more powerful and faster machiens must prove they have the skills to do so. Otherwise you would have to do away with CBT and all other motorcycle licences. Increased speed increases risk of accidents and injury. Having said that - ALL those riding Sur ron bikes on the road I have seen are doing so illegaly - no plates and balaklavas ~No face - no case~. Frankly they are really dangerous. The laws may be strict compared to other countries such as the U.S. but they are designed to protect people.
Pedal assist ebikes rules surrons are classed as motorbike specifically 125cc ones they are taxed and can be insured with a number plate they are road legal
Your channel is great. As for the e bike laws where do I start on this one. First of all. You can easily get up to 40mph on a decent mountain bike with no engine what so ever. There has been loads of people pulled over for breaking speed limits on normal pedal bikes over the years. I have been stopped my self many years ago. The cop asked how fast do I think I was going. I said about 12 mph he laughed and said I was doing over 30mph Then he said this a 20mph zone, I have no speedometer and no idea I was doing over 30. It was a sunday morning and no one else on the roads. So yes I am a bit puzzled by the new laws on ebikes etc I think even Traffic police are a little bit confused. Only just been talking about this the other day and it does need making clearer. Absolutely nothing on google search other then confusing posts. I will always have pedals on mine just to make sure its legal I dont care if any one says it looks silly.
They did the same with motorbikes, until you get a full licence, they claim it improved safety, all it did was make the test so complicated less people ride.
If the power is increased, but the speed is restricted, then I can only imagine that its either to prevent tampering or restrict the acceleration speed?
Every e-bike can have their speed unrestricted in about 2 minutes, some are a bit more fancy and may require a resistor. But it's very easy to fool the sensor/control unit that the bike isn't moving, or moving at half the speed it thinks it is.
@@ShuskiCross Yes appreciate that some or even a lot of tampering will be possible, extra speed and acceleration will result in shorter battery life and motor life if gear etc are not designed for any extra power, people can mess with all sorts of things, but if it then takes them over legal maximums then in an accident they may have to pay the price in court. If extra power is allowed then the tampering can produce bikes that way surpass the maximums.
I may get hate from some of the comments however the only law I would consider changing is upping it from 15.5 to 20mph and that is MAXIMUM. what you're asking for is a e motorcycle, which is already extremely easy to get a cbt and ride on the road to 70/80mph.. Noone and I say this with high conviction, noone wants to see a surron on a shared bike/ped lanes/paths. I actually really like the idea of owning a surron however the insurance for the road legal version 70/80mphtop speed for mewould be 2200 with 9 years motorcycle NCB. If the price was similar to my motorcycle, I would consider one. I have a EMTB and is quite hard to push past the 15.5mph limit to say 18mph because of the additional weight on the flats, while I know if I had a regular mtb, on the flats, I would go slightly faster. And getting up to 20mph on a road bike on the flats, would be extremely achivable
TBH, speaking as an American/UK dual national (read: I've spent a lot of time in both countries)...outside of the bigger urban hubs, the Police presence on the roads in the UK seems to be substantially smaller than in the US. IOW, you're less likely be tooling down a country road, ridin' dirty, and run into PC Murdoch....than you would in the US. The big drive to consolidate all the smaller police districts into superdistricts (like Police Scotland) in the 90s and 00s seems to have done that. So, yeah, I suppose you could just ride around the country lanes and never worry, so long as you were smart (time/day, staying off the main roads, not irritating the locals, etc).
Your 3k ish motor has way more torque than a 250w motor, the wattage(power) is a function of speed and torque, if you gear a 250w motor you can exchange speed for torque or visa versa but you can not increase both, its one or the other, acceleration or potential top speed (you need enough tourqe to reach potential top speed), you can overvolt it so essentially make a 250w motor eat like a 400w motor but it will quickly burn out and should only be done for short bursts, the 250w limit restricts ‘the beast’, long and short of it though it comes down to capability, your bike is 100% illegal, even if your riding it in a compliant way,(and even if the police tell you otherwise) you know it is capable of being switched into a non peddle assist monster on the fly so the bike itself is illegal (even if you ride it in a compliant setting and or manner) it’s capabilities categorise it outside of the peddle assist ‘bicycle’ category, p.s I think I’m a tad more liberal on the bike rules/laws than you, I don’t have one but think they should be utilised and enjoyed, some sensible rules but more on rider responsibility and less on bike restrictions, whether you drive a morris minor or a Bentley speeding is speeding and its the act that should be the crime not the possession of a Car, also I’m all for making provision for the youth to ride legally, as you hinted at, the more you have, the more you have to loose. Besides, the majority of the youth are often more sensible and responsible than alot of adults. Let them enjoy being responsible, else they’ll end up enjoying being criminals, same action different mindset. Thanks for posting, enjoy!!!
Yes theft can play a major factor. I never leave my bike unattended when out. It has a decent tracker installed too. Not that it would prevent anyone taking it !
@@DemiGod.. of course nobodies saying people change because a wire on a bike is cut. You can still keep track of the speed limit, drive responsibility, and by the way climb hills, haul cargo, and keep up & not impede traffic…
I think the realities are:~ mobility motorised wheelchairs are 4mph/8mph - 4mph pavement, 8mph road. eBikes 15.5mph (probably a round number in km/h!) - can be ridden from 14yrs old - pedelec - pedal assist. Moped; 30mph design speed, 50cc, license, taxation, insurance, helmet etc. But I think you are right that eBikes should be allowed to be 20mph, because you can do that on the flat on an ordinary bike. Ratios are a different question. My eBike is 11/44 ration, so 1:4 gearing. My road bike is 10:55 so gives higher speeds if you're fit enough. I can ride my eBike down slight slope at 30mph 'without power'; but as soon as you turn on power, it limits you to 15.5mph as the motor is poor at decoupling ~ it's suddenly like driving through treacle!! Scooters! They got that totally wrong didn't they!
As a 20 yr old pedal cyclist I was stopped for speeding, clocking in at 42mph on a 10 speed racing bike in a 30MPH speed zone. I opted to attend court to explain I had no way of assesing my speed as the cycle was not fitted with a speedo and got off with a warning.
In the UK both the road traffic regulation act 1984 and rule 124 of the highway code state that speed limits relate to motor vehicles not bicycles. However there are local byelaws where speed limits for bicycles do apply and can be enforced e.g Richmond and Hyde Parks in London. One guy was fined £600 for speeding on a bicycle in Richmond Park.
I was driving a car by a school , picking my son up , i was doing the 15 mph , as instucted by the signage of kids crossing , a pdal bike suddenly appeared on my left , swauizing bwetween me and the kerb , trying ever so hard to go faster then all the cars on the school road !!!! aye very clever , sorry i am a peddle bike , i did not know , i did not see or even notice the speed signs , no no , my chance to race past the cars :) Most cyclist will always try and race a car where they can , just to show you can get about just as quick on a bike i a city lolol human nature eh
bicycles are not subject to uk speed restrictions. your arrest was unlawful.
on my calibrated speedo, i clocked 62mph on the steepest hill in my area on my bicycle. not sure how the police would deal with that!
@@Proper-KernowDangerous Cycling/Riding is what they tried me for, but as the Judge in my case said UNTIL Cycles are fitted with Speedoomter that could NOT be tampered with by the rider it would be inpacticable for the Police to charge a Cyclist with Speeding, BUT if I had be charged with "Reckless Riding of a Pedal Cycle"I would have been found Guilty.
Ebike laws are ridiculously restrictive. We have to get more people out of cars and onto clean green transport, and switching to ebikes is one of the lowest hanging fruits there is.
As a daily ebike rider for the last 8 years, in my experience about 2kW and 30mph speed limit is a sweet spot that should be encouraged.
The concept of respect for and patience with other road users needs to be drilled into people. Defer to pedestrians, don't ride aggressively or irresponsibly and you won't attract attention.
With power comes responsibility! Campaign for change and greater ebike adoption. People should be buying us pints for not clogging up their traffic jams and filling their lungs with filth!
As someone with mobility issues, i had to get an ebike with a throttle. Also 250w Fiido D1 struggles on hills. Need more power! so far no issues from police with regard to throttle as i would say it's basically my mobility scooter (hope that would work)! Great video.
The only issue i have is idiots hooning it around, blatantly disregarding the laws .. going wrong way, wheelie in to on coming traffic etc.. That spoil it for all.. But hey idiots in cars, cycles and scooters also.
Thanks man. I 100% agree
Have been actively involved in bicycling and motorcycle riding all my adult life. Recently sold my last motorcycle and have installed a mid-drive motor on my mountain bike. Had looked long and hard at the Sun Ron but could not pretend it was an E-bike. For me, it is clearly an electric motorcycle, even with the marginal 'pedal system' . In my mind now, folks are looking for speed, not exercise. but still want to pretend they can move about like when they were kids. How many E-Bike reviews do you see on CZcams where the reviewer ignores stop signs, rides on sidewalks, cuts across park lawns and generally make there own 'rules'. Police can't waste time trying to apprehend E-bike violators. Motor controllers can certainly be modified to squeeze more speed/torque. If the bike is initially purchased with all parameters 'set' by the manufacturer, that at least minimizes the initial number of folks that may need to have a conversation with a Police officer. If you really need to go faster than say 15 mph, get a electric scooter or electric motorcycle like a street legal Sur Ron, get insurance and a license. In the U.S. the E-Bike situation is getting crazy. We have more options, but it seems we have turned the good old bicycle into a monster. In 1973 it was my pleasure to pedal my Schwinn Sports Tourer from San Francisco to Boston. Today I enjoy a mountain bike fitted with a mid-drive motor. Pedal assist 1 and a light steady push easily moves me about just under 15 mph. Makes for a nice adventure for this 74 year old, until a Sur Ron or 1000 watt monster bike blasts by without regard for me or the other pedestrians using the paved path.
There's a shared cycle/pedestrian path by us and in the summer it's absolutely mobbed,I myself use it for both walking and non electric cycling but I've seen regularly ,ebikes, escooters and eskateboards doing 40mph+ , totally reckless and endangering other path users, ultimately spoiling it for ebike user's who use some common sense. Ironically I'm looking to get an ebike as I've been told I need a knee replacement and I can't ride a regular bike anymore.
Always going to be people that abuse them and ruin for everyone else. Good luck with your knee👊
If a road has no speed limit, is it “destroying it for everybody else” to go faster than someone else? I certainly don’t think so… that’s exactly why they post speed limits for everybody. In my area, a suburb, road limits are 25-30 mph (40-48 kph), multi-use when posted is about 15 mph (24 kph), and shared pedestrian ways (sidewalks) are 8 mph (13 kph). In all cases my eBike can exceed these speeds, but I keep within them to ride with the prevailing traffic, which is by far safer for everyone involved.
The only other thing to observe is the priority rules, as in:
Cars & Trucks yield to bikes & eBikes, which in turn yield to pedestrians when traveling on shared use pathways.
The operating principal is to keep down speed interactions to avoid injury, and provide a better experience.
Which is why I find it better to use multi-use pathways rather than country roads, or for that matter heavily traveled city routes with no provision for lower speed lanes off to the side.
its like our max spd is 70mph but we have many cars capable of 190 plus ?
I live in an area where our local MTB trails are getting destroyed by surons and dirt bikes. Absolute nightmare ATM. Ultimately, they're dirt bikes and need to be treat as such, they aren't mountain bikes.
I would agree they are more dirt bike than mtb
I've got the road legal one. Police are probably shocked when they see a surron with a number plate stuck on the back lol
Defiantly seems the way to go. Enjoy man. Ride safe!
It's an odd time for sure. People lose it over these bikes but are OK with 500hp SUV's which can also be driven too fast and dangerously. The future is single person electric vehicles. But the people making the laws are too far away from how much these will transform the way we get about. I have 2 cars taxed and insured and an 800cc Motorbike on the road, but when it's a short journey I jump on my carbon road bike (pedals) which has clocked 45mph plus on a recent trip to the Cotswolds, or enduro mountain bike (pedals), or my Evolve electric mountain board, or my bafang modified hybrid bicycle which has a thumb throttle and pedal assist and hits 40+mph. I've been driving for 30+years, it's strange how my last 2 options are illegal on public roads yet just as sensible as the pushbikes in terms of environmental impact.
@@cjb514 Was there a point there? Before you mention where electricity comes from, I worked for the National Grid, so make sure you check your workings.
@@SimonPass230267 i could be wrong, but i think the biggest thing going against broad legalisation is that while the government does just about recognise the significant shift e-mobility represents, they don't see a clear enough way to making money from it through taxes, penalties, etc. it exploded onto the transport scene so quickly and so globally, their heads are still spinning.
Simon, you make some good points, however the point you've missed is that to drive the 500hp SUV you have to have passed a driving test showing, at least, basic compentency. Same with your motorbike. To ride a bicycle, there is no barrier to entry, other than money. This is lunacy if you're going to have a powerful Ebike in the hands of someone with zero riding experience or worse, zero road sense. There isn't a quick solution to this that will work. If we allow anyone to ride bikes like the Sur Ron then we'll end up with utter carnage. That will then also make a nonsense of the laws we currently have around mopeds.
As you question the legality of a restricted over 250 Watt e-bike in the video you are driving at 30 MPH on a public road. That's why they don't accept restricted bikes because you know your fourteen year old will be riding on public roadways with the restrictions turned off. We had similar rules for age restrictions on mopeds in the '70s here in Ontario Canada with a top speed of 30 MPH and I enjoyed a couple years when I was 14 and 15 with my moped getting about to work and play. Some of the more daring types modified their mopeds to do as much as 70 MPH putting children as young as 11 years old into traffic doing these insane speeds so they changed the laws making mopeds the same as any other motorcycle needing plates and insurance with a licensed motorcycle permitted rider of at least 16 years old.
Europe, UK and Australia are limited to 15mph (25Km/h) but in the land of the free, i.e USA you can legally do 28mph (45Km/h) using battery power.
A USA You tuber was pulled over by the Police in California for doing 40mph (65Km/h) and was given a warning, the cop said if you are going to go faster than 28mph, make sure your legs are pedalling or we will treat the e-bike as an illegal motorbike.
Crazy how different the law is in different countries
A suron. Is an electric motor cycle that is capable of over 60mph. It is in no way an (E-bike #electric assisted ). There has been quite a lot of young men killed on the suron motorcycle no license no training and absolutely no common sense whatsoever if the suron is registered as a motorcycle and insured with a license plate on show with the appropriate equipment then it is road legal the law is very clear on this matter
So… your saying that paying money for insurance, taxes and fees, and slapping a piece of government issued paper on a eBike automatically makes everything ok?
Really?
People have been killed on virtually anything that moves. Laws don’t make things safer, but responsible people can.
In this case it seems more like the “Laws” are simply making responsible people lawbreakers. It sure doesn’t actually make things safer.
I got chased by under covers on pedal bikes near where I live yesterday tried to grab me off without saying anything (I got away), I only ride in secluded places to practice stunts, but the problem is they think everyone that’s got one is a drug dealer, when some us are causing no harm and just want to have fun
My nephew has this bike. He has changed the sprocket to bigger on the back wheel. The cost blow me away but he works hard so he can buy what he wants. He bought better disc brakes. And just ordered better front forks-1.500 a lot of money. When he goes out he said there’s about 7 or 8 of them on these bikes. I have seen it it’s very nice. Good video.
I normally have the full assist at level 5 , going up the steep banks , going to bottom gear with top assist is not enough , i strugle at times on the big hills , But i am thinking a second 250 motor on the front wheel , with its own battery is what i need , if i can a lower assist setting i can extend the range of the two batteries ?
Hey, I listened to your opinion, ive been in the ebike game since 2010, seen all the variations and ridden them all. The ebike pedal assist category was created so that all people can access them. Ive tried them all, according to different regulations all over the world. Ive also tried unlocked normal ebikes.
The legal definitions exist to distinguish motor bikes and ebikes. If you are on an ebike thats outside of those rules, then it might be fine for you in practice on the road or on trails, but if my grandmother rides it suddenly it looks different. The 25 Km limit is actually a good thing, as going faster than that down trails is not for everyone, especially where you might meet walkers coming the other way. Or taking a tight corner etc, when you ride with the general public you start to realise there is only a small niche of people that can actually ride at the bikes limit.
What you are doing and riding is a motor bike. If you don't have insurance and lights etc then green laning is not good, ride it on a track or closed land course. It's not hard to understand. If you really had the experience with the public then you would realise 98 percent of people don't have the skills to go buy an unlimited powered bike ride around and do their worst.
Some of these products risk ruining the fun for everyone. 15.5mph is actually fine, once you go above this you start to realise the motors gearing and power delivery completely sucks after about 18 mph. They are not designed with high speed in mind. You loose torque and fine control after a certain point.
For all the "discussion" you are missing that you are a niche...
Throttle control on a pedal assist varies around the world in the USA its a class 2, again different rules apply, but again so does the skill level of the consumer, again take this into account when discussing this and realise again you are a niche...
I 100% agree hence making a channel that is all about the Sur Ron. The whole existence of this channel is the niche of owning a Sur Ron. I have 20 odd other videos based around this topic. I am just trying to understand why having a larger motor that is restricted is an issue. Or isn't it an issue? No one has a definitive answer. Just opinions.
Nonsense, I regularly peddle 18 mph (29 kph) just about everywhere. The roads are mostly 25-30 mph (40-48 kph), I slow down where appropriate (busy pathways & sidewalks) depending on PAS (Pedal ASsist) levels & gear choice I can travel higher or lower with ease. Most people in my experience can easily master these pedal speeds with just a little practice.
In France, driver's license states you can drive any vehicle under 11kw without any further tests... You may need helmet and protective gears and insurance but other than that, I'm against the plate
🤘
It is only the motor that must cut out at the 15.5 mph. You are still able to maintain a speed greater than that if you pedal .
In my opinion mate I ride my talaria every spare minute I have to me Ignorance is bliss and I’ll deal with the hurdle if I ever get caught but as you say you drive respectfully and ride at times and places where there’s not many people i get 95% positivity off people most people are so intrigued when they here it’s electric I feel like these bikes are the future and we’re in the trial faze another great video
Thanks man. 💯 agree with you. Ride safe man 🤘
You absolute tool
morning guvnor what bike have u got i had a elec bike that was as much use as a chocolate kettle looking for something to commute to work
How much is insurance on the road legal version?
What’s the problem with saying a cbt will cover you on one what’s the difference and insurance
Did you get e-bike insurance or road legal Surron insurance?
A letter from DfT to Pedelecs clarified that it's ok to have a throttle btw.
hey man can u give me some more info on that im looking at buying a surron light bee x and would love a little more info just to clarify if i should actualy buy it
Are surround legal with the pedal kit and eco???
Great vid mate 👍
Thanks for the comment 👊
Hi what is the bike you are riding on the video? It seems fast
I think the reason of the max 250w is because most of the 250w doesn't get to that high speeds, even if you remove speed limit. Some of them do but like most hub motors not.
250 wat is ridiculous in uk cause its so hilly, they need to update it
What is the pedal extension kit called and do it pls
The peddle assist can max assist to 15.5mph. But you can still pedal faster than 15.5 mph, as long as your 250w motor cuts out at 15.5mph. Other Ebikes can pedal assist upto 30mph plus.
15.5mph is the max for assist. The bike isn’t limited to 15.5mph. If you are going downhill or pedalling like crazy on the flat. You can easily double that speed. Legally. Just you need gravity or strong legs.
Nah they go 22mph tops
Find it really frustrating that the power limit is set based on the flatter London Oxford Cambridge areas. 250w does not really help on steeper hills especially with the reduction on the number of hills
One lad yesterday on his Sur-Ron was riding in my local town centre in a pedestrian bike zone only at speeds of 35mph. He missed me cycling on my legal ebike (I slow right down to 10mph because there are other people and dogs) coming in the opposite direction and crashed straight into a tree breaking his leg and wrist. His “mate” came along and rode it off to “stash” it away. Yes, these are the idiots who give Sur-Ron riders a bad name. He’s lucky he didn’t hurt anyone else but himself. That’s why there has to be limits and consequences- it bad use of these Sur-Ron bikes that’s the issue.
Hi, I’m from Midlands UK I’ve got same pedal assist kit, and I say the same, “A Ferrari can go faster than the speed limit but it’s not illegal until you break the law”…
Once in eco mode and no throttle by law we are limited to 250w 😎
I agree 💯
Or, you could travel within the speed limit regardless of the “mode” or wattage. Assuming of course you have enough power to tackle hills, and reasonably, safely keep up with prevailing traffic, the safest way to travel.
Im getting a surron bruv butbim worried about it getting nicked whwn i park it
before i got my ado a20 i contacted the department of transport minister at the time asking if it was ok to have a throtle on an ebike i recived an email back saying yes as long as it dosnt propell the bike and rider faster than 15.5 miles per hr
That is surprising given the law says a hand throttle cannot push you with out pedals at more than 4 mph? 15 mph is when the motor should cut off even with pedals you can of course pedal faster but it must be mororless.
I`m confused a road cyclist can easily average 20+ mph and that`s perfectly legal so why is an ebike only allowed to go 15 mph. the rules make no sense
That's not the law. You are free to ride faster but NOT under power. Under power you can only ride 15.5mph. Thereafter the power must cut off.
💯 agree
@@talkingebikes
exactly. If you need power assist to ride due to an injury, or disability, you just need to keep in your place.
Right.
Just apply the rules of the road to everybody. Road speed limit. Multi-use pathway speed limit. Sidewalk speed limit.
Then add courtesy.
Forget about how fast you can pedal, or how much power your chosen vehicle has.
Just Drive Safe,
With Courtesy,
and everything will be just fine.
@@nobleharbor265it's mostly down to the mass of the ebikes and to avoid the ebikes needing to be equipped as a motorised vehicle.
@@glennoc8585 comparing an eBike to a 125 cc trail bike (like the Honda) the weight difference is profound. And, as to equipping eBikes with common road legal items like better lights (high/low beams) with a lighting level that actually illuminates the road. Turn signals that work, self cancel, and can actually be seen. Better dashboard items, like accessory outlets, a workable horn (and a bell) though bells appear to be a personal choice item. Mirrors, etc. All these things are common on existing motorcycles, small or large. Moot point though, these are showing up now, and the foreseeable future.
None of this presupposes that we need, or even want all the trappings of centralized control, electronic tracking, and every other useless weight stuffed on everything nowadays.
This is not an update these laws have been around for years
Big fan of this sort of thing, BUT... you have to blame a lot of the riders. Walking in Brighton today and some idiot whizzed past me doing about 30mph on the pavement. Honestly, he needed a good thumping. There's a time and a place, and the pavement ain't one of them.
💯 agree
Nothing to do with riders, the laws in this country are extremely strict with every aspect of society, this is a nanny state
You can't even drive into a city without paying money. But why follow the law? Iv been driving my 750w 34mph ebike every day for a year+ , driven within walking distance past police they don't care if you drive quiet
@@frostedlambs beg to digger there mate. I live in Brighton and ebikers are always crashing into pedestrians cos the idiots ride on the pavements everwhere and at speed.
Well said 👍🏾
Thanks 🙏
why does a car go over 100 mph maybe we should cap them to 70 lol i agree with ya pal great video
Thanks man 👊
Good video bro❤
Thank man. Appreciate it !
I own an electric motion escape (electric trials/enduro) as well as petrol motorcycles. Terminology currently used is confusing - if it's a powered two wheeler, it's a motorcycle and you need a motorcycle licence, end off. In shared spaces, pedestrians will always come off worst.
Very simple for anyone wondering: 1000000% ILLEGAL
Only legal if:
.Riding on your own private land
.Riding on the public roads if you have a CBT or higher + insurance ( + tax and mot 3 years after registration of your surron )
Apart from that, you can ride it illegally like LOTS of people but thats just a headache.
Note: Legal electric bikes can reach speeds upwards of 40mph downhill, just like any bike. They do however weigh less but still not an excuse for slamming into a family of 5 on your surron going 45mph.....
Everything is dangerous, the law is the law.
15.5!! When u get my Surron I’m going 45+ at least
I bought my 250W e-bike in 2013, it has Pedelec cadence sensor. It isn't 'all or nothing' like you claim as soon as you turn the pedals.
Pedal assist is in preset levels on mine…. Each setting gives you a different power, speed… or he faster you pedal, the faster it goes…. Not sure why your pedal assist is like that 🤔
Are u using the kaniwaba pedal kit?
I am a fair weather cyclist, I cycle for 6-8 months of the year once or twice a week, usually 20-50 mile rides, I average over 15mph on long rides and can comfortably reach 30mph on the flat, I have definitely broken the speed limit going down hills...
Surron with pedals? Is this now classed as an EAPC then? so long as you’re pedalling/throttling 15.5mph in front of people off-road? Nice bike though
Thanks man 👊
Right I’ve got one and I’m 15 I don’t sell drugs it’s fun I don’t ride in roads only trails and feilds every one is giving it a bad name no need
I can see you point regarding the motor size law. Cars can have different engine sizes, but some makes are part of the "gentlemans agreement" (limited to 155mph). The countries that these cars are sold in have different laws regarding speed limits. Some have higher (Germany on certain roads). It does beg the question why is it the motor power that's the limit. Should it not be the speed? I guess it's a case of whether countries want to integrate other modes of transport or not. If so, then e bikes, e scooters etc need to be managed the same as other motorised vehicles. The pedal assist element though does however cause a grey area in the fact its mechanically propelled to a degree. (there is a difference between motor vehicle and mechanically propelled in UK law). I know I've kinda thrown in a bone of conversation here, be interesting to hear what others think?
You can change the output of the motor by upping the amount of cells in the battery(increase voltage potential). So if you get a bike with a 36 volt battery the watts will be limited to 250 watts, ut you can make it ,ore powerful. Most of them motors will take much higher voltage. Just like gasoline motorcycles come super restricted, but the potential is there to make them a lot more powerful and manufacturers know this. Almost all motorcycles have hidden power that can be unleashed.
Wait so if i buy a off road surron i can ride it anywere if it aint on a road? Like would i be able to bring it to a forest or a feild and it would be legal?
If you have permission of the land owner.
I've got one and gose 45mph I got insurance and it goes in for a chack up every six months because we've got soo many no heads on the roads driving there car's they don't care if they hit you up the a*s or even cut you up and they try to blame you for their stupidity
how much u paying on the insurance ? genuine question as im lookng to buy one
👌👌👍✌️
U ride the same as me really use maximum offforad and just enough roads to get to the off-road spots
Nice. Ride safe man 👊
Most e bike are more than 250w but limited to it. Then have mods that go out of it.. 💯 agree Grey area. If the retailers are getting away with it, it must be grey ;)
💯
My 250watt 36v mountain e-bike can do 22 MPH without any mods before the motor switches off. My other e-bike is 500 watts 48v (a cheap super 73 lookalike) can do 25 - 28 MPH and really it’s not that much different except for the torque. Oh and they both have a throttle.
An E-bike is pedal assisted and the Sur-on is twist and go. TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORIES.
@@woolychewbakker5277 the title for this video is misleading and now every time somebody sees a proper E-Bike after watching this video, they are going to think “oh that’s illegal it shouldn’t be on the roads”. All this click bait video is going to do is lead to more harassment by police to innocent people in public.
I found this interesting. I am in New Zealand, and here we are legally restricted to 300 watts, no speed limit per se, and we are allowed a throttle. I own two 300w e-bikes, and both have a top speed of about 32 - 34 kph, which is about 20 - 22 mph. Too fast for in the UK, but a more reasonable speed, I feel.
Thanks for your comment man. Crazy how the law is so different in different areas of the world. Ride safe !
@@southcoastsurron You can emigrate to these places you know 👌
Totally agree it's not the case of the motor its how it's heard...
can someone under 16 ride a surround on the path or on a bike path?
what I don't get, and please help me if you can. I wanna convert my bakfiets (cargo bike). I am currently looking at mid motor drives. but this rule of 250w limits the torque. I need this for a big cargo carrying bike. Will 250watt cut it. One 250w for all bikes of all types is weird. With other road vehicles you have a speed limit but no motor size limit. Feels like having to put a Fiat panda motor in a lorry. but I have not experienced it so any thoughts and tips welcome
No 250w will have as much power as a cereal box. The law is ridiculous I think they should implement a speed limit rather than motor size.
honestly mate it will pull it but i highly doubt anybody is going to be able to tell that it's 1000w or however big you want... especially if you put a sticker that says 250w on the motor
Bike riding ability is a major factor in safety re throttle control availability
100%
Your better off just registering it really its not a e bike its a e dirtbike its not pedal assist either treat it like a moped or a motorcycle insurance plate license
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I ride a road legal pedelec, If you want to ride a none road legal sur Ron on the road get it registered, pretty simple really.
The road legal pedal only e-bikes do not go to full throttle when you start pedalling, you have full modulation on the speed right up to the max 15.5 mph. The Sur Ron might well only go to full throttle when pedalling, I dont have a Sur Ron so dont know.
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I *THOUGHT* I recognised that area! I've run round a lot of those places you rode...
Nice man 👊
Yeah, I get it. These are terrific bits of kit. But if your average old granny is capable of whipping along at 20mph or more all day on one of them, then it's absurd that they should be lumped in with conventional bicycles. These need to be in a category of their own, or better, classed as a moped and be subject to the same rules. Unfortunately I'm detecting a hint of the F... You attitude there. Reminds me of the people here in NZ that rip up sensitive sand dunes and any bit of rough land that doesn't have a locked gate on it
Agreed. The law need to be updated and have these and similar bikes in their own category. Thanks for your comment man.
@@southcoastsurron Even “granny’s” need to get where they are going safely. They and everyone else need to be able to travel with prevailing traffic patterns, at or just below posted limits. Most people DON’T intend to “rip-up” ANYTHING.
Just like most people 30-80+, they don’t necessarily want to ride a bus, unless of course they use it as a connector between bike-routes.
Oh, and they own trucks and cars too (that are NOT restricted, power limited, or underpowered), and they don’t rip-up, or ride at anything but in compliance with posted limits.
It doesn't have to be pedal assist. The law just requires that. The throttle should not be able to propel the bike further than 15.5 mph with no pedal assistance.
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Not insured on the road
250 watts is absolutely no use for folk living in hilly areas, and who carry a bit of weight. UK laws on ebikes, scoots, etc, are absolutely ridiculous.
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Just a question mine is though my house hold insurance. How else can u insure the bike if it’s not road legal
Yea mine is through the house insurance too
There are dedicated bicycle & eBike Insurance plans. I’ve got good hiwshold insurance but in every case the dedicated companies can beat most…
As far as age limit goes, why not an age / speed / power limit which is removed at over 18 ?
Yea great suggestion
What I don’t understand is the bike shops who fit a after market kit of any size to a pure pedal bike and then claim they are legal as it aftermarket?
It’s called “demand”, as in the consumers will eventually get their way.
Kind of like a force of nature.😉😁😎
Pedal assist usually has 5 levels, and level 1 is around 12 mph.
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Let me share my perspective. I've been a cyclist for 60 years and been riding motorbike for 50 years since my first moped. I am also a trained engineer with an understanding of physics and the laws of motion. I have yet to get an ebike and experience and motorcycling has impacted how I cycle. The reasons for not having an ebike, yet, may become apparent below.
Firstly I will talk physics. It turns out that the force of impact, how much damage is caused if you hit a car or tree, is related to the square of the speed that you are travelling at. What does that mean? If we just focus on the speed bit, if you are going at 10 mph the speed contribution to the impact would be 10 times 10, that would be 100 units. At 15 mph it would be 225 units and at 20 it would be 400 units, 4 times that of 10 mph and nearly twice that of 20 mph. At 30 mph it is 900 units. The amount of force in an impact greatly increases with speed. You can see why 20 mph zones are a good thing for vulnerable road users, the impact force is much less. you can play with real numbers here www.omnicalculator.com/physics/car-crash-force#force-of-impact-definition-impact-force-equation . You will also see on that calculator the heavier you are the more it hurts too!
Ebikes in the UK are intended to be used by unlicenced, untrained riders, including children. There are no mandated safety equipment rules. That is because the continuous speed an average cyclist can do is between 12-16 mph, and a 15 mph ebike falls into the manual speed range. The risk and danger is no greater than cycling.
You can get faster ebikes, speed pedelecs, but in the UK you need a licence, insurance and must wear a certified crash helmet since they are to all intents and purposes an electric moped. Would you want inexperienced children, riding around on unlicenced high powered ebikes crashing and killing themselves? I don't think so.
Next...as I mentioned above forces involved in motion greatly increases with speed. A bike that routinely hits 20-30 mph may be subject to much greater forces and stresses than a bike that routinely hits 15 mph. The 15 mph ebike can be based on standard bike components since standard bike components are designed for an average maximum continuous speed of 15 mph. A bike regularly going 20-30 mph must have stronger wheels, frame, brakes etc. to deal with the increased stresses. This is why speed pedelecs have to be subject to regulation and stricter standards. They may be heavier and less suitable as a pedal only bicycle. Whilst you can put a high power motor in a bicycle frame, the bicycle frame and its components are not designed to take it.
The above was the science, the rest is my personal opinion. As a motorcyclist I no longer cycle fast. If I am riding around town, a 20 mph town in most places, on my motorbike, I wear, as required by law, a motorbike helmet. I also wear a protective jacket, gloves and boots. If I have a tumble at those low speeds I have good protection. I realised years ago that I had been hitting 30-40 mph down hill on a bicycle only wearing shorts and a t-shirt, no helmet and no chance of stopping if a car came out a side turning. I have seen the damage caused by accidents at these speeds, it isn't pretty. Since I am not going to wear "all of the gear", to help prevent injury, just to get around town on a bicycle, I decided that I should probably not exceed the design speed of the average human. The average running (typical maximum human design speed) speed is between 8-12 mph. At around 10 mph you are less likely to injure yourself, more likely to be able to stop to avoid the car or pedestrian that appears in front of you. That is how fast I cycle most of the time.
Since I don't plan on going fast I don't need a fast ebike. In fact since I have geared my bicycles to suit the hills of Brighton and the South Downs I don't actually need an ebike at all, although I have thought about getting one. If I do get one, a regular 250W/15 mph one will be good enough, I won't be hitting 15 mph.
To the point about throttle vs pedalling. I would suggest that if a person does not have the competence to ride a bicycle then a person may not have the competence to ride an ebike of any sort. Stopping in the right gear is a basic part of cycling. We all get it wrong sometimes and it doesn't really matter. It is an inconvenience. Having additional power whilst pedalling is analogous to the dynamics of ordinary cycling. The term for an ebike is EAPC, electically assisted pedal cycle. It is assitance. Having a throttle turns it into a pedal assisted electric motorcycle, there is a difference.
There are plenty of street legal electric mopeds and motorbikes out there, some of them are cheaper than ebikes and can carry things like shopping. just look at the electric moped pizza delivery guys. If you want speed, and the additional safety you can get from better tyres, brakes, without getting sweaty, get one of those.
A final thought. If you are in the UK have you read the latest Highway Code from cover to cover? If you haven't you really should. You will discover that there is no such thing as "right of way" and that there is something called the Hierarchy of Road Users which defines much more clearly the way in which everyone, including cyclists should behave. I would suggest that if you haven't read it you probably should not be on the road.
Thanks for your comment. 👍
What kind of speed are you reaching on the off road areas? I've loved mountain biking all my life BUT I also love walking my dogs and watching the video is giving me conflict because I also hate killjoys BUT what if someone's dog crosses the same trail? So long as you're really considerate and can slow right down and are safe to others who might be out there it's all good. You mentioned you're out when no one else is out there. I walk my dog when i think hardly no one will be out also because it's more fun.
Do you have any idea how many people, with or without dogs cross roads? So in the millions, imagine asking what if someone crossed a road and a vehicle (with or without insurance) hits them?
So should we ban vehicles as “dangerous” because they could harm people or little dogs?
Regardless when you or your dog walks, you COULD be hit by a car, truck, or even a low flying plane.
So that’s it for every animal or pedestrian out there…
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@@nobleharbor265 lol 🙄 clearly I was refering to the speed on the off road trails shown in the video.
Great video thank you, do you get any issues from the police? i want to buy one and agree the road legal version is ugly af, but i dont want the off road getting crushed if i buy one
Touch wood I have never had an issue with police. Although I don’t ride in areas that I have a chance of encountering them 👊
youre comparing sur-rons to unregistered pedal assist bikes, why? a sur-ron is a 125 and has all those rules/laws applied to.
You're 100% on the push iron v e-bike speed. 16mph is pedalling a mid gear slowly, most cyclists average 21mph. I get why its so low, its just over a cyclepath speed limit (12mph).
brilliant demonstration why pedal assist is dangerous too, some bikes are probably better tuned to actually assist rather than taking over.
the laws are dumb and contradictory, they are overly complicated tbh and you made brilliant points
A surron is a 50cc I mean you can mod them but it’s only a 50cc stock
It's assistance up to 15.5mph, not a bicycle speed limit of 15.5mph. You can go faster than 15.5mph if you pedal faster / harder i.e. use it just like a bicycle. I do agree though that the assistance limit should move up to 20mph and a throttle should be legal to only for occasional assistance, so maybe cap the throttle limit lower at 10mph or something, to avoid it becoming a purely motorised vehicle.
Pedal assist is absolutely not dangerous and that was a strange comment. Good systems have torque or cadence sensors and the rider has complete control, so it's likely that whatever you have installed is just not a good pedal assist.
On power output, I agree you can gear it up, I have 250w with good gearing and I can comfortably pedal at 20mph with little effort and I'm 130kg, so a "normal sized" human will have no problem with 250w 😁
Remember that it's 250w nominal output, not peak, so a good 250w middrive will often peak at 500w+. Personally I think 350w nominal would be ideal, along with 20mph assistance limit and a thumb throttle, but it's not like 250w is detrimental to ride quality.
Overall, from this video, what I think you want / are describing is an electric motorcycle and not an ebike. Maybe there is a middle ground where if you get a motorcycle license, then you are entitled to buy ebike up to 5kw with 60mph top speed, so long as it has a registration plate and insurance etc.
On my freego electric bike on pedal assist I set it to 1 or 2 so it sets of slow
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What the law on the 72v battery for the sur Ron
Same as the 60v man. It’s all about the motor output
Surely the reason for limiting power is to ensure that riders who wish to use more powerful and faster machiens must prove they have the skills to do so. Otherwise you would have to do away with CBT and all other motorcycle licences. Increased speed increases risk of accidents and injury. Having said that - ALL those riding Sur ron bikes on the road I have seen are doing so illegaly - no plates and balaklavas ~No face - no case~. Frankly they are really dangerous. The laws may be strict compared to other countries such as the U.S. but they are designed to protect people.
Can you use your Sur Ron on the road (WITHOUT) electric assistance just peddle it?
Pedal assist ebikes rules surrons are classed as motorbike specifically 125cc ones they are taxed and can be insured with a number plate they are road legal
Your channel is great. As for the e bike laws where do I start on this one. First of all.
You can easily get up to 40mph on a decent mountain bike with no engine what so ever. There has been loads of people pulled over for breaking speed limits on normal pedal bikes over the years. I have been stopped my self many years ago. The cop asked how fast do I think I was going. I said about 12 mph he laughed and said I was doing over 30mph Then he said this a 20mph zone, I have no speedometer and no idea I was doing over 30. It was a sunday morning and no one else on the roads. So yes I am a bit puzzled by the new laws on ebikes etc I think even Traffic police are a little bit confused. Only just been talking about this the other day and it does need making clearer. Absolutely nothing on google search other then confusing posts. I will always have pedals on mine just to make sure its legal I dont care if any one says it looks silly.
Yea I completely agree. As these are growing in popularity, they do need to update the legislation and consider some of the other factors
Its like limiting the hp in cars so thy cannot go over 70mph on the flat motorway
No, not really! You can self power an ebike (which this is not) above the 'motor speed' perfectly legally!
They did the same with motorbikes, until you get a full licence, they claim it improved safety, all it did was make the test so complicated less people ride.
If the power is increased, but the speed is restricted, then I can only imagine that its either to prevent tampering or restrict the acceleration speed?
Every e-bike can have their speed unrestricted in about 2 minutes, some are a bit more fancy and may require a resistor. But it's very easy to fool the sensor/control unit that the bike isn't moving, or moving at half the speed it thinks it is.
@@ShuskiCross Yes appreciate that some or even a lot of tampering will be possible, extra speed and acceleration will result in shorter battery life and motor life if gear etc are not designed for any extra power, people can mess with all sorts of things, but if it then takes them over legal maximums then in an accident they may have to pay the price in court. If extra power is allowed then the tampering can produce bikes that way surpass the maximums.
The “power” that’s restricted is governmental in nature…
I may get hate from some of the comments however the only law I would consider changing is upping it from 15.5 to 20mph and that is MAXIMUM. what you're asking for is a e motorcycle, which is already extremely easy to get a cbt and ride on the road to 70/80mph.. Noone and I say this with high conviction, noone wants to see a surron on a shared bike/ped lanes/paths. I actually really like the idea of owning a surron however the insurance for the road legal version 70/80mphtop speed for mewould be 2200 with 9 years motorcycle NCB. If the price was similar to my motorcycle, I would consider one.
I have a EMTB and is quite hard to push past the 15.5mph limit to say 18mph because of the additional weight on the flats, while I know if I had a regular mtb, on the flats, I would go slightly faster. And getting up to 20mph on a road bike on the flats, would be extremely achivable
We don’t all live in Norfolk. 250watts wouldn’t get you anywhere in Wales.
It is very easy to get the bike insured , i pay 6 squid a month
That’s awesome. Who do u use as I bet there’s a lot of guys on here that would be interested?
It’s easy to insure an e bike if it’s legal. You can’t insure something higher than 250w 15.5mph or with twist and go it’s ridiculous
Yes who are you insured by
Dude like your videos keep doing them. Totally agree. Choosing a bike is so hard.
Thanks for the support man. Appreciate it!
TBH, speaking as an American/UK dual national (read: I've spent a lot of time in both countries)...outside of the bigger urban hubs, the Police presence on the roads in the UK seems to be substantially smaller than in the US. IOW, you're less likely be tooling down a country road, ridin' dirty, and run into PC Murdoch....than you would in the US. The big drive to consolidate all the smaller police districts into superdistricts (like Police Scotland) in the 90s and 00s seems to have done that.
So, yeah, I suppose you could just ride around the country lanes and never worry, so long as you were smart (time/day, staying off the main roads, not irritating the locals, etc).
Can a surron be converted to a road legal version and if so how much do you think it will cost?
Definitely. It’s just finding the Parts. Something I’m considering
They sell road legal versions in the UK already.
@@Mopantsu the road legal version is the lbx right? if i was to buy that would i need to insure it ?
Your 3k ish motor has way more torque than a 250w motor, the wattage(power) is a function of speed and torque, if you gear a 250w motor you can exchange speed for torque or visa versa but you can not increase both, its one or the other, acceleration or potential top speed (you need enough tourqe to reach potential top speed), you can overvolt it so essentially make a 250w motor eat like a 400w motor but it will quickly burn out and should only be done for short bursts, the 250w limit restricts ‘the beast’, long and short of it though it comes down to capability, your bike is 100% illegal, even if your riding it in a compliant way,(and even if the police tell you otherwise) you know it is capable of being switched into a non peddle assist monster on the fly so the bike itself is illegal (even if you ride it in a compliant setting and or manner) it’s capabilities categorise it outside of the peddle assist ‘bicycle’ category, p.s I think I’m a tad more liberal on the bike rules/laws than you, I don’t have one but think they should be utilised and enjoyed, some sensible rules but more on rider responsibility and less on bike restrictions, whether you drive a morris minor or a Bentley speeding is speeding and its the act that should be the crime not the possession of a Car, also I’m all for making provision for the youth to ride legally, as you hinted at, the more you have, the more you have to loose. Besides, the majority of the youth are often more sensible and responsible than alot of adults. Let them enjoy being responsible, else they’ll end up enjoying being criminals, same action different mindset. Thanks for posting, enjoy!!!
But they require a test to gain a Licence and road Tax registration and insurance.@@MKBx1
The biggest issue is theft. Great idea in terms of environment to take you’ve bike on all your short journeys but where do you safely put your ebike.
Yes theft can play a major factor. I never leave my bike unattended when out. It has a decent tracker installed too. Not that it would prevent anyone taking it !
Have you ever cut the green wire mate ? I’m tempted but still not sure 🤔
Most people do hell my 120lbs Gf did. But we offroad only Live in the United States
Go for it, all you have to risk is a huge fine and jail time if you get caught, not much atall.
I cut the brown wire on my talaria and it’s a completely different bike so much faster, if you’re looking for more speed I’d do it
Yea I cut the green wire. Completely changes the bike!!!
@@DemiGod.. of course nobodies saying people change because a wire on a bike is cut.
You can still keep track of the speed limit, drive responsibility, and by the way climb hills, haul cargo, and keep up & not impede traffic…
I think the realities are:~
mobility motorised wheelchairs are 4mph/8mph - 4mph pavement, 8mph road.
eBikes 15.5mph (probably a round number in km/h!) - can be ridden from 14yrs old - pedelec - pedal assist.
Moped; 30mph design speed, 50cc, license, taxation, insurance, helmet etc.
But I think you are right that eBikes should be allowed to be 20mph, because you can do that on the flat on an ordinary bike. Ratios are a different question. My eBike is 11/44 ration, so 1:4 gearing. My road bike is 10:55 so gives higher speeds if you're fit enough.
I can ride my eBike down slight slope at 30mph 'without power'; but as soon as you turn on power, it limits you to 15.5mph as the motor is poor at decoupling ~ it's suddenly like driving through treacle!!
Scooters! They got that totally wrong didn't they!
What do you do when you have a cramped and can't pedal with pedal assist can't ride the bike home
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