"NON-HIERARCHICAL" Key phrase. Totally opposite of and what's so degrading and oppressive about mainstream psychiatry. Some doctor gets to tell you after talking to you for 10 minutes what reality is and isn't. He must know, he's got the clipboard.
That treatment is good for people but bad for the medicine companies. 85% full recovery, amazing! They were so humane with patients which made me cry. Why Finland is number one country in happiness? Maybe because they care about each other, even if you are sick or poor!
The irony is that families strongly believe that you should throw someone out and keep them far away from you if they have a mental illness or any struggles period (at least in America). Btw, youtube won't let me read the other reply left here, but it does show that a reply was left.
@@disorganizedclutter5513 That's such a stupid and insensitive thing to tell a schizophrenic. No one wants to throw out those they love, but not many has the tools to take care and heal those with major problems.
The tragic element here is the young film maker's wonder at the effectiveness of methods which were used successfully in the U.S. in conjunction with pharmacology in the 1970's. As a psychiatric nurse at that time, I worked in acute community mental health in a newer inner-city state hospital. We used milieu therapy based in communication and behavior therapies very successfully with extremely psychotic people with an emphasis on return to their family or community. But we had better financial resources then than U.S. mental health systems have today. The Finns are rich, well educated and socialistic. Americans are struggling, science-phobic and Libertarian by comparison. Our psychiatric professionals also chose pills over people. They created an elitist barrier against including smart and motivated non-doctoral therapists in treatment. It was all about the money, lowering taxes, profits for insurance companies.
Maybe it's worth being optimistic and thinking that if it was done in the States before it can be done there again :) At least there's a historical precedent for it.
I just would like to hug all of these psychiatric nurses, psychologists and psychiatrists working in this facility. They're all beautiful people indeed.
I'm on disability and I wish I'd had this kind of support when my symptoms started. What sprung out for me was the tonality, responsiveness, and body language of all the practitioners interviewed. They were curious, not selling anything at all, being simply authentic and trying to get to the truth. I contrast that with every counselor I've met here, who I felt were playing a role. They didn't adapt for me and were selling their services like an advertiser, trying to get me to believe that this was healing irrespective of what was going on for me. I think we pathologize the sensitive here; the ones who noticed subtleties and expression are labeled the ones with issues. I hope peer supported open dialogue gains in popularity because I think counselors would have an incredible amount of unlearning to do to get something like this working.
I want this Kind of Therapy-- My family NEVER says the truth-- everything is a secret, shrouded in lies-- I could really benefit from real people in open dialog!!
Dear Daniel, I recently completed my master in clinical psychology and am deeply grateful to have found your movie just as I am about to dive into this field of work. I've found it quite concerning to witness how easily medication is prescribed for a variety of mental health issues without first exploring the potential of community, genuine relationships, movement, nutrition, meaningful work, nature, art, spirituality etc. I am so happy to have been introduced to this refreshing alternative approach. The work they do in combination with your lovely storytelling left me hopeful, inspired and energised. Thank you!
You are an icon sir! Brother was diagnosed with Bipolar I with Schizoaffective features - wish I could send him here instead of him being on antipsychotics and mood stabilizers!
Notes of things I liked that I will copy into my phone later 1. Importance of everyone's voice. And that what is said is honest and authentic 2. Availability of getting care and always picking up the phone 3. Transparency and collaboration between everyone in front of the patient 4. Home or office visits are chosen by patients 5. An important goal of the therapist is to have people around the patient listen to and understand him or her. Patient needs to feel listened to and understood by his or her closest loved ones. It is important to meet with the whole family 1:10:06 6. 30:31 It seems we in the western world have it backwards. 7. Validate others experiences. Don't say "that is impossible!" 8. 32:36 higher recovery rates in third world countries where patients are not constantly maintained on medications 9. 34:45 symptoms of psychosis can go away when an individual works with whatever dilemma is going in their life. In contrast 35:20, in the USA, the idea that the problem is within the brain, so the patient often has to be isolated and then medicated. 10. The preference is to meet daily in the private residence if needed rather than process a patient to be hospitalized in a mental hospital. 11. Minimal drugs used. Usually just 5 days of sleeping pills to help patients who have been up days on end. 42:15 12. 44:18 drug reps travel to the edges of the globes dining and trying to persuade drs all over the world to use drugs. Even to the Finns. 13. 47:00 There are other ways listed besides drugs to help a patient. 14. 50:37 "if a therapist or organization does not use medication (in the USA) they are considered dangerous. It's considered bad treatment." 15 53:59 Studies that support "Open Dialogue" & 58:05
Marvelous documentary! I watched this as part of an Ex-In formation, aka Experienced Involvement, in which people with stable mental issues are involved in dealing with people facing similar issues. This is currently actually really blooming in Germany, and the philosophy of Open Dialogue is an integral part of our formation and work. This film just reinforced my conviction that this is the way to go and my hope that it will eventually complement psychiatry and psychotherapy to the benefit of patients, personnel, as well as society. It's a win-win-win. I'll so this to all interested in my work. My favourite scene is when Daniel asks her whether she's risking her license by not prescribing medication, and she didn't even understand what he meant. And he couldn't believe that she actually didn't risk anything. I laughed so hard at this point. I also nearly cried at a few other parts. All this horrible pain and loneliness, and nobody really listening... that's a situation that nobody should ever be in. I'm often surprised to have survived that for 40 years.
Thank you from my heart and mind for sharing your documenaries freely. I am truly blown away by your gift to the world - in this global world - global mental health - where millions of people can now find inspiration, hope, humane empowerment through your films 'Take These Broken Wings', 'Open Dialogue', 'Healing Homes', and 'Coming Off Psych Drugs'. You are supporting millions people in dire need presenting and exploring alternatives for humane healing from severe distress and find means of collective action for social change. More gratitude than words of gratitude.
As Jaakko Seikkula was describing the first meeting with a patient who is psychotic, and how it is very difficult to understand or find meaning in their expression ... I had an epiphany. The psychosis relates to a trauma which occurred for the patient when the patient was a baby - that is, pre-verbal and unable to communicate with words. The best they can do is express themselves as a baby would express themselves - through body gestures, or perhaps images. As the therapy sessions continue, and the patient is listened to and engaged with, their ability to communicate their experience develops into something slightly more detailed or descriptive.
I really appreciate that you have shared the film with us on CZcams. A friend of mine has been afflicted with schizophrenia for about six years. She got the symptom when she was a sophomore college student. Her parents and doctor have prohibited her from using a PC or a smartphone for fear of being influenced by the flood of negative information. Though she consults a psychiatrist, she has irregularly contacted me by writing fears on her future with her tiny mobile phone. Now I want to let her know this film.
I'm still catching my breath after viewing this thrilling and rather breath taking documentary film, OPEN DIALOGUE. Thanks to the film makers, Finish staff and their "patient-participants", for sharing this compelling, alternative approach to healing Psychoses. This approach and it's success, parallels my own experience doing group work with older adults in a Psychiatric setting.
This program revolutionized my idea of my personal struggles and has helped me tremendously in my recovery. I cannot thank you enough for putting this video together and sharing it.
A wonderful film, thank you. There needs to be a profound shift here in the U. S., but as long as the mentality persists that it is a God-given right to make a buck off of everything and everybody, I can't see it happening. Keep up your outstanding work, however -- and its promotion. There's no way we can keep going as we are -- I'm thinking primarily of the destruction of our environment, but undoubtedly any number of other things could be included too -- so who's to say what the future will bring. If we survive, that is (sorry for the pessimism, and no, I won't be taking antidepressants).
One of the best presentations on healing trauma I've seen yet. Thank you for all your work, both personal and professional, Daniel. This instills hope in me for all of us.
Hello Daniel, This model seems like [un]common sense to me and is why I became a mental health nurse. That is to heal not to maintain/manage mental illness. The problem I have is one of culture. You alluded to the Finns being self deprecating, which I can only assume comes from a sense of other. That is their social values are community orientated. Being from Great Britain I have seen the end of community since the 80's when the political mantra was that there was no such thing as society, only individuals and their families. To my mind this became a self fulfilling prophecy that fed into the Friedman paradigm of economics that pervades both the US and the UK today. Given this premise, (rightfully or wrongfully), it feels like the Open Dialogue Model would be so much harder to implement and get anywhere near the same results? There's a wonderful film called Lars and the Real Girl. I'm hoping/guessing you would have seen it? Now I loved that film and thought that it was a beautiful concept of how care in the community should be and think it not too far of the said model. The problem was that the cynic inside me kept thinking this couldn't happen as it takes close communities that trust to do this. Here in the UK stranger danger (and I think in the US?) is a way of life. Thus people with psychosis are shut away. The only time you hear of psychosis in the media is as the bogey man or mad axeman. So to get this seemingly wonderful model to work would take a huge turn around in social thinking? I'm not a wholly big fan of RD Laing but I do like his assertion that madness is a sane response to an insane world. How much research did you do into the social differences? Sorry I'm rambling now....however, I really enjoyed the documentary and had that lovely warm feeling I had after watching Lars and the Real Girl...this time though it was real. Thank you for your time. Jim
I love the finnish collective mentality. They care for one another, they think of the greater good for all. Very positive people. Kind to one another. With that kind of mentality, you dont need an army, nor police. The best society i ever encountered. Their might as a nation, is coming from within.
@@ThoughtProvokingVlogs your thinking doesn't make sense. It's got little views because it's fascinating. If you're able to think than you'd know you're wrong.
Wow! I didn't know we have this kind of treatment here in Finland! Everyone I know who's been treated at a psychiatric hospital in my home country - none of them in Lapland - has had really bad and even traumatic experiences. What a cool documentary! 👍😊 I hope the rest of Finland and the rest of the world will adopt the method of open dialogue too.
Thank You Daniel for you trip to Finland and making this video, I will share it with my friends who are struggling with their children and I would call it pandemics , here there and everywhere, young beautiful children with mental disorders,unable to function and live the life.
What a wonderful team of truly caring, 'listening' flexiable, problem solving individuals. It is shameful this model isnt being embraced by Australia's 'comfortable psychiatrist's' whose present treatment management is life destroying from the start.
+Diana Woods 70% recovered without 'any' so called antipsychotic drugs, 85% success rate 1st psychosis presentation getting back to work or school, half of the 30% who had received ' small ' doses antipsychotics are off by the 2-5 year marker. 20 years of success! What is in the way of Australian psychiatrists humbly learning from the Finns who seem to run an egalitarian medical team for the benefit of the patient? Finns patients have the opposite stats to Aust, . I would expect from those who earn $240 to $300 a hour of tax payers money excellence in their field !!!!!
We have the same trouble in sweden too, psychiatry together with treatment-places here, do just destroy more, than they heal anyone, today, as for the last 20 yrs. Not good for people who need something else, than pills, and totally stale stiff rules. Softness, allowing and building on that which is healthy in each individual. I just Wish, this could change how our treatments look, cause we are in the middle ages still here in sweden, handicapped into rules, not for the clients who need help, but for the staff only. Its a terrible way to destroy humans everyday here, worse than before they had any contact with them.
Thank you for existing. This really does need to be in the US Prisons badly. The current system is sooooo broken and is so corrupt nobody who gets incarcerated has a chance. If your not mentally psychotic before you go in, you will be.
One burning question: what kind of brain disease can be cured through dialogue with the sufferer and their social network, producing the best long-term outcomes in the developed world? I would suggest, none. So what are we doing to people when we prescribe antipsychotic medication which shortens life, increases morbidity, and actually makes long term mental health outcomes worse then for psychotic people who aren't maintained on antipsychotics long term? (See Robert Whitaker's meta-analysis entitled "Anatomy of an Epidemic", which is free online, for the full research on this). This lifts the lid on the most shocking and unbelievable medical abuses in the history of the Western world that I have ever known, and one would hope it is the worst such case. I hope that this movement brings all this to light, as well as bringing hope of recovery to millions written off as chronically disabled due to mental health.
I only discovered your channel two weeks ago or so. I haven't watched very many of your videos yet. I am so thankful that I did, as well as for this film. This may yet help me save my life.
A decade later this is still groundbreaking info for anyone in the western world to hear. I went through the wringer three years ago and am finally coming to an understanding of the mistreatment that I was given, at fault of big pharma, academic psychiatry (f the DSM), and I would say, a lack of spiritual connection in the western world leading to a failure to understand the mad persons experience as a necessary departure from their status quo
we have been looking for help for my brother in law for some time. I stumbled upon this, then saw the pilot program at UMass! and he lives in Worcester! we are going to call this week and see if they are accepting clients. Thank you so much for this!
This is so inspiring. Thank you for this extremely interesting type of open dialogue therapy, Finland! As well as your openness in your desire to share it with us, the rest of the world.
Great film. It was a fantastic insight into what seems like the pinnacle of medical research into the most effective treatment for those in a mental health crisis. With these success rates in Finland, I wonder, if psychiatrists in other parts of the globe who administer anti-psychotics would be fully willing to make their jobs redundant in their current form, should the medical evidence prove that the Finnish holistic, drug-free, patient choice type of approach, does indeed result in a higher rate of successful patient outcomes. Commercially, one must presume that the pharmaceutical companies seek profit for their shareholders and will hold little interest in revising or exploring criticisms into the effectiveness of their drugs, nor willing to accept another organisation or company who proposes alternative medical treatments or solutions, especially if that outcome that would negatively affect their financial forecast.
What if the "patient" is losing touch with reality because there's severe abuse happening. Most often, the abuser is a family member. How is it helpful to bring in the family, or to send the patient back to the family for "healing"? They keep talking about family as if there's 100% guarantee that family wants what's best for the patient. Abuser's goal is to not be exposed, and to not lose access to their target.
Thank you Daniel for all the work you have been doing in this area and for your courage bravery and hard work in challenging the psychiatric system and bringing light to other ways and understandings.
Inspiring work by modest workers which pokes the eye of tradition. I love it. It builds on the story telling approach and keeps people at the centre. IF ONLY South Australia was ready for it !!!!!!!!!
HONESTY spells HOPE. Hope and knowledge that intelligent, stable respectful intelligent people exist on the planet. I absolutely enjoyed this. Thank you Daniel and thank you Finland. I want to work at this place.
THANK YOU so much for making this film. I believe the health of a society is predicated on the way they treat the most vulnerable. Living in a country where the pharmaceutical companies dictate treatment makes it very clear to me our society is very sick. I asked my sons psychiatrist if he was aware of this model & I was disappointed, horrified but not surprised that he hadn’t. Like everyone else I’m just so disillusioned & angry with such an ineffective & uncaring mental health system. It’s not rocket science that compassion, kindness & understanding are what is required when people are suffering.. not a lifetime of drugs to line the pockets of pharmaceutical companies.
this is very unique to share the method and how to solve psychosis....friends all over the world, can share this clinical method, thank you for sharing the video here - to have a family in mental health problems
Excellent work Daniel with very important implications and findings which bode well for the future if only we are willing to apply this model to the rest of the modern world. In addition to it's effectiveness, it is practical and economical too!!
I'm so very very pleased to find your documentary - for your making this Finnish model available. The understandings that underlie the model, as best as I understand, are - to my mind - rooted in some of the same truths and insights that underlie practices such as consensus model decision making, peer facilitated conflict resolution, and healing justice circles. In all these practices - validation of individuals, within inclusive supportive community, seem key principles at work. In all these practices, there is unquestioning acceptance of complex interactivity and interdependency, married to unquestioning intention to foster thriving community. It seems there is community, and there is learning - coming and going in all directions. Thank you, and thank the many who joined you in creating this film.
Positive controversial approach, that will, hopefully, soon become a widely spread alternative to the immediate prescribtion of the usual joy-in-life killing meds. The doc itself, however, could have easily been cut back to 1/4 without any info lost :), and, strangely enough, chemically/drug abuse induced psychosis (and the treatment approach to), as a topic, is never mentioned. Ps. A quote from the (also controversial in circles of psychiatry ;) AA appraoch to addiction just came to mind : there is no chemical solution to a spiritual (not religious !) problem. To me personally, that translates to ' don't fight symptoms of problems, try to heal by going to the root of what's actually, really going on, and try to empower people with enough tools to deal with the problem themselves..'.
great video thanks for posting Daniel ! i find this doco almost frustrating to watch seeing a place like Finland doing so well and my own home country doing so poorly. I can now see yet another problem we have here with our medical practitioners when they dont even understand what the word Psychosis means they seem to think its some sort of permanent, incurable condition that can only be treated with drugs thanks to Finland we now know this is not the case... I congratulate Finland WELL DONE!!! Your country can now look forward to many more years of healing its people!
+cameron E i hear you!! alas, what they're doing in northern finland is just in a small small part of finland. it would be a good thing if the rest of the country of finland (and world) learned from what this small section is going. greetings!
+Daniel Mackler ok perhaps i was getting a bit to excited, so lets push this as far as we can then.. I see on my internet here in Australia the New South Wales Schizophrenia Fellowship has a whole webpage about the Open Dialogue Program including your great Documentary Daniel... Today Lapland Tomorrow the rest of Finland the day after lets shoot for the stars and take on the rest of the World.. I know some militant anti-psychiatry followers out there are calling for a bloody revolution to many lives have been lost already so i favor a peaceful revolution and i don't think its impossible...Have a look at the history of humanity regarding peaceful revolutions it all starts with a small group of people who stand up for their rights and then take the rest of the people with them .... Cheers ;)
Ngl I think this is why peoples experience of schizophrenia in less industrialised places isn’t anywhere near as negative. Family bonds are very strong in such places because they’re not atomised
It’s an amazing approach, I’m glad I came across that movie. Modern western medicine dehumanizes the patient - and oftentimes the provider too. I only wish the flow of the movie was more smooth, and interviews with different people weren’t cut into parts and mixed - not easy to follow. But overall - thank you for the effort and creating this movie❤
ILEF organizará en Abril 2018 un seminario con Jaakko Seikkula. ¡Pronto detalles completos! #SeikkulaMx2018 #SeikkulaILEF2018 #OpenDialogue #DiálogoAbierto
I've got the movie and I love it. But thank you for sharing so that I may share with my friends (and the rest of the world). I know one psychiatrist who is using open dialogue or a variant thereof with children and young people. Unfortunately, the method is not universally acknowledged within Danish psychiatry. We still prefer to strap people down and overmedicate.
If you take Schizophrenia away from being just a "mental illness" and consider it as a language, I feel that many would begin to see that it can be considered a dialect. Consider that hallucinations and delusions are like the brain hearing and seeing the language, while the feelings a person with Schizophrenia has is like the pronunciation. In this way, Schizophrenians are trying to provide the translation and the science of psychology oversees interpreting the language.
It's sickening how society is about mental health, I get it ,it's about fear .but unable to talk for fear being mistreated or hospitalised is a disgrace ,God place everyone that's working for change .
Lithium orotate (trace with a decent binder) stops mania and hysteria in its tracks. Medical doctors will tell you lithium is the best aid for bi polar, but what they prescribe it, its so strong it destroys the kidneys. And that is a problem here in the United States, when a medical doctor will only give people or tell people about what they can prescribe. And what they prescribe makes people more sick, not better. I have a whole list of symptoms that get drugged that the diagnosis isn't even correct for that which they are drugging. Its reality, and its horrifying. Medical doctors are drug pushers, and if we don't know how to or if they don't wish to talk, we'll get screwed over. Period. We are better off researching ourselves. I have learned the lesson the very hard way.
I would like to move to Finland...There's nothing in America..Conformity and corporate misery...I'd like to try one of those work visa programs I've read about online but it could be nothing but a scam..
"the Finns were not working in a mental health system which constantly suggested that they were breaking the standards of care and causing harm to their clients." Have you considered that perhaps their successful results are largely due to the fact that there is such a loose standard for determining "success" in Finland?
I wish I would have seen this before my psychotic friend accidentially wasted him self :( Well I still know atleast one case and this method seems pretty harmless, maybe fit for him..
Hi Daniel really great film. It has totally blown my mind. I am working as a co-production lead in MH in London and have experience of SEMH in my own family.. I have so many questions. One is about if patients/family member become violent and how they deal with this? It is certainly very inspiring and I am going to talk with my team about it.
hmm, good question. i think they do use minimal hospitalization, but do use it sometimes. also, i think it can help if they have a therapy worker live in the house with a family -- calms things down. however, i haven't been there in six years, so i don't have the best answers anymore!! also, you may know this, but open dialogue seems to be taking off in the UK, from what i hear. www.nelft.nhs.uk/aboutus-initiatives-opendialogue facebook.com/opendialogueuk best wishes from new york-----daniel
hi patsy. alas, i don't know of any teams in albuquerque. i would imagine that their mental health services are much more conventional there..... wishing you the best! daniel
As a psychoterapist, I am amazed. I'm also curious to know if this approach can be used in others conditions such as depression, borderline disorder...or only pshchotic disorders
Hello Daniel how do I take contact with Jaakko Seikkula . I live in the nothern part of Sweden very close to Torneo. My 15 year old daughter has been suffering with Psychosis for a year now.Thank you
Although I agree that Open Dialogue seems like a Great approach, it is difficult to accurately interpret what the success rate really is? They talk about Recovery, however Recovery is different than Curing the problem. Curing, Recovery, Remission, Improvement, Functioning, are all very loose subjective terms used to describe mental illness. As far as I know, there is no cure for mental illness, & it just gets worse with age. Unscientific subjectivity makes it impossible to compare apples with apples.... We are still in the dark ages when it comes to understanding the human mind
You're basing this on the assumption that there is a discrete biological entity called "mental illness" that needs to be "cured". There is no evidence of that. Contrary to propaganda, it is NOT like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and the like. So when you say there is "no cure" for mental illness, you're kind of right. There is nothing to "cure".
this has been very interesting to watch - thank you for uploading it. i was wondering whether, during the sessions, the psychologists/psychiatrists/nurses get into the actual content of the psychoses. there was a hint of this in the beginning, but it doesn't become clear from the documentary.
If in the United States people DON'T think they are paying for this they are kidding themselves. What recovering from psych drug malpractice has cost me, the taxpayers and my insurance (when I had it) is ridiculously gastronomical. Ordinarily I'd feel badly, except for that its cost me a lot too, and today because instead of the medical doctor helping me he and his liability insurance attorneys attacked me I live on the charity of others and in poverty. If not for others I would be like most in my situation, which means I would be rendered homeless and living on the streets at 64 years of age. Prior to the psych drug malpractice I was financially secure, married to my best friend for 28 years, and close to retirement. From this I lost my marriage, most of my friends and family, my career, my home, my retirement, and my medical doctor took ME to court to get rid of me as a patient. It boggles the mind, but that is how crony capitalism works. The judges have helped them instead of me, even with the evidence right in front of them.
"NON-HIERARCHICAL" Key phrase. Totally opposite of and what's so degrading and oppressive about mainstream psychiatry. Some doctor gets to tell you after talking to you for 10 minutes what reality is and isn't. He must know, he's got the clipboard.
That treatment is good for people but bad for the medicine companies. 85% full recovery, amazing! They were so humane with patients which made me cry. Why Finland is number one country in happiness? Maybe because they care about each other, even if you are sick or poor!
But that is only in Western Lapland. In the rest of the country, the treatments suck.
❤
As someone with schizophrenia, this is ground-breaking news! The KEY to healing psychosis is healing families and communities!
Have you managed to get off medication?
The irony is that families strongly believe that you should throw someone out and keep them far away from you if they have a mental illness or any struggles period (at least in America). Btw, youtube won't let me read the other reply left here, but it does show that a reply was left.
@@disorganizedclutter5513 That's such a stupid and insensitive thing to tell a schizophrenic. No one wants to throw out those they love, but not many has the tools to take care and heal those with major problems.
Pi like the movie but he's not actually schizophrenic everything he says could be true
Can someone from the USA go to one of their homes in Finland?
The tragic element here is the young film maker's wonder at the effectiveness of methods which were used successfully in the U.S. in conjunction with pharmacology in the 1970's. As a psychiatric nurse at that time, I worked in acute community mental health in a newer inner-city state hospital. We used milieu therapy based in communication and behavior therapies very successfully with extremely psychotic people with an emphasis on return to their family or community. But we had better financial resources then than U.S. mental health systems have today. The Finns are rich, well educated and socialistic. Americans are struggling, science-phobic and Libertarian by comparison. Our psychiatric professionals also chose pills over people. They created an elitist barrier against including smart and motivated non-doctoral therapists in treatment. It was all about the money, lowering taxes, profits for insurance companies.
Maybe it's worth being optimistic and thinking that if it was done in the States before it can be done there again :) At least there's a historical precedent for it.
I just would like to hug all of these psychiatric nurses, psychologists and psychiatrists working in this facility. They're all beautiful people indeed.
I'm on disability and I wish I'd had this kind of support when my symptoms started. What sprung out for me was the tonality, responsiveness, and body language of all the practitioners interviewed. They were curious, not selling anything at all, being simply authentic and trying to get to the truth. I contrast that with every counselor I've met here, who I felt were playing a role. They didn't adapt for me and were selling their services like an advertiser, trying to get me to believe that this was healing irrespective of what was going on for me.
I think we pathologize the sensitive here; the ones who noticed subtleties and expression are labeled the ones with issues.
I hope peer supported open dialogue gains in popularity because I think counselors would have an incredible amount of unlearning to do to get something like this working.
I want this Kind of Therapy-- My family NEVER says the truth-- everything is a secret, shrouded in lies-- I could really benefit from real people in open dialog!!
gorillatwist I would like to know more about how to treat schizophrenia naturally and get of zeprexia. Mary
I'll bet. It took me 15 years and.......anyway I hope you've found help.
These therapists are heroes. They re saving lives. They re giving people back their lives.
First therapist in my life I've heard saying: "We have to be honest". I was so surprised I had to listen to it 4 times.
Dear Daniel, I recently completed my master in clinical psychology and am deeply grateful to have found your movie just as I am about to dive into this field of work. I've found it quite concerning to witness how easily medication is prescribed for a variety of mental health issues without first exploring the potential of community, genuine relationships, movement, nutrition, meaningful work, nature, art, spirituality etc. I am so happy to have been introduced to this refreshing alternative approach. The work they do in combination with your lovely storytelling left me hopeful, inspired and energised. Thank you!
Is always Alternative mental treatment in many health issues
I would be interested in seeing you as a therapist with that attitude. Thank you. I hope you help alot of people.
You are an icon sir! Brother was diagnosed with Bipolar I with Schizoaffective features - wish I could send him here instead of him being on antipsychotics and mood stabilizers!
The root causes are not treated, just hidden with medication
i got forced into the wrong therapy. this documentary gave me hope and the possibility to compare my treatment. Thank you!
Notes of things I liked that I will copy into my phone later
1. Importance of everyone's voice. And that what is said is honest and authentic
2. Availability of getting care and always picking up the phone
3. Transparency and collaboration between everyone in front of the patient
4. Home or office visits are chosen by patients
5. An important goal of the therapist is to have people around the patient listen to and understand him or her. Patient needs to feel listened to and understood by his or her closest loved ones. It is important to meet with the whole family 1:10:06
6. 30:31 It seems we in the western world have it backwards.
7. Validate others experiences. Don't say "that is impossible!"
8. 32:36 higher recovery rates in third world countries where patients are not constantly maintained on medications
9. 34:45 symptoms of psychosis can go away when an individual works with whatever dilemma is going in their life. In contrast 35:20, in the USA, the idea that the problem is within the brain, so the patient often has to be isolated and then medicated.
10. The preference is to meet daily in the private residence if needed rather than process a patient to be hospitalized in a mental hospital.
11. Minimal drugs used. Usually just 5 days of sleeping pills to help patients who have been up days on end. 42:15
12. 44:18 drug reps travel to the edges of the globes dining and trying to persuade drs all over the world to use drugs. Even to the Finns.
13. 47:00 There are other ways listed besides drugs to help a patient.
14. 50:37 "if a therapist or organization does not use medication (in the USA) they are considered dangerous. It's considered bad treatment."
15 53:59 Studies that support "Open Dialogue" & 58:05
Thanks for this
Marvelous documentary! I watched this as part of an Ex-In formation, aka Experienced Involvement, in which people with stable mental issues are involved in dealing with people facing similar issues. This is currently actually really blooming in Germany, and the philosophy of Open Dialogue is an integral part of our formation and work. This film just reinforced my conviction that this is the way to go and my hope that it will eventually complement psychiatry and psychotherapy to the benefit of patients, personnel, as well as society. It's a win-win-win. I'll so this to all interested in my work.
My favourite scene is when Daniel asks her whether she's risking her license by not prescribing medication, and she didn't even understand what he meant. And he couldn't believe that she actually didn't risk anything. I laughed so hard at this point. I also nearly cried at a few other parts. All this horrible pain and loneliness, and nobody really listening... that's a situation that nobody should ever be in. I'm often surprised to have survived that for 40 years.
Thank you from my heart and mind for sharing your documenaries freely.
I am truly blown away by your gift to the world - in this global world - global mental health - where millions of people can now find inspiration, hope, humane empowerment through your films 'Take These Broken Wings', 'Open Dialogue', 'Healing Homes', and 'Coming Off Psych Drugs'.
You are supporting millions people in dire need presenting and exploring alternatives for humane healing from severe distress and find means of collective action for social change. More gratitude than words of gratitude.
It can take from 5 to 8 years to withdrawer from long-term neuroleptic use.
@@johnherbert9849 have you managed to get off meds? How long do i need to take to get off them from 4 years of use?
As Jaakko Seikkula was describing the first meeting with a patient who is psychotic, and how it is very difficult to understand or find meaning in their expression ... I had an epiphany.
The psychosis relates to a trauma which occurred for the patient when the patient was a baby - that is, pre-verbal and unable to communicate with words. The best they can do is express themselves as a baby would express themselves - through body gestures, or perhaps images.
As the therapy sessions continue, and the patient is listened to and engaged with, their ability to communicate their experience develops into something slightly more detailed or descriptive.
Very inspiring, Daniel. Thank you for making the film and for making it free.
I really appreciate that you have shared the film with us on CZcams. A friend of mine has been afflicted with schizophrenia for about six years. She got the symptom when she was a sophomore college student. Her parents and doctor have prohibited her from using a PC or a smartphone for fear of being influenced by the flood of negative information. Though she consults a psychiatrist, she has irregularly contacted me by writing fears on her future with her tiny mobile phone. Now I want to let her know this film.
I'm still catching my breath after viewing this thrilling and rather breath taking documentary film, OPEN DIALOGUE. Thanks to the film makers, Finish staff and their "patient-participants", for sharing this compelling, alternative approach to healing Psychoses. This approach and it's success, parallels my own experience doing group work with older adults in a Psychiatric setting.
This program revolutionized my idea of my personal struggles and has helped me tremendously in my recovery. I cannot thank you enough for putting this video together and sharing it.
A wonderful film, thank you. There needs to be a profound shift here in the U. S., but as long as the mentality persists that it is a God-given right to make a buck off of everything and everybody, I can't see it happening. Keep up your outstanding work, however -- and its promotion. There's no way we can keep going as we are -- I'm thinking primarily of the destruction of our environment, but undoubtedly any number of other things could be included too -- so who's to say what the future will bring. If we survive, that is (sorry for the pessimism, and no, I won't be taking antidepressants).
One of the best presentations on healing trauma I've seen yet. Thank you for all your work, both personal and professional, Daniel. This instills hope in me for all of us.
Hello Daniel, This model seems like [un]common sense to me and is why I became a mental health nurse. That is to heal not to maintain/manage mental illness. The problem I have is one of culture. You alluded to the Finns being self deprecating, which I can only assume comes from a sense of other. That is their social values are community orientated. Being from Great Britain I have seen the end of community since the 80's when the political mantra was that there was no such thing as society, only individuals and their families. To my mind this became a self fulfilling prophecy that fed into the Friedman paradigm of economics that pervades both the US and the UK today. Given this premise, (rightfully or wrongfully), it feels like the Open Dialogue Model would be so much harder to implement and get anywhere near the same results? There's a wonderful film called Lars and the Real Girl. I'm hoping/guessing you would have seen it? Now I loved that film and thought that it was a beautiful concept of how care in the community should be and think it not too far of the said model. The problem was that the cynic inside me kept thinking this couldn't happen as it takes close communities that trust to do this. Here in the UK stranger danger (and I think in the US?) is a way of life. Thus people with psychosis are shut away. The only time you hear of psychosis in the media is as the bogey man or mad axeman. So to get this seemingly wonderful model to work would take a huge turn around in social thinking? I'm not a wholly big fan of RD Laing but I do like his assertion that madness is a sane response to an insane world. How much research did you do into the social differences? Sorry I'm rambling now....however, I really enjoyed the documentary and had that lovely warm feeling I had after watching Lars and the Real Girl...this time though it was real. Thank you for your time. Jim
I love the finnish collective mentality.
They care for one another, they think of the greater good for all. Very positive people. Kind to one another.
With that kind of mentality, you dont need an army, nor police.
The best society i ever encountered.
Their might as a nation, is coming from within.
why doesn't this have more views
it's not a big money maker. the opposite, actually...
@@dmackler58 exactly!!! Thank you for this video ....I knew it was something better than medicine. Thank GOD for MORINGA, PRAYER! GOD!
Because it's boring
@@rezamahawatkhan1699 I think the word you are looking for is fascinating
@@ThoughtProvokingVlogs your thinking doesn't make sense. It's got little views because it's fascinating. If you're able to think than you'd know you're wrong.
Wow! I didn't know we have this kind of treatment here in Finland! Everyone I know who's been treated at a psychiatric hospital in my home country - none of them in Lapland - has had really bad and even traumatic experiences. What a cool documentary! 👍😊 I hope the rest of Finland and the rest of the world will adopt the method of open dialogue too.
Yes! I wish this was the way patients were treated in the rest of the country too.
Thank You Daniel for you trip to Finland and making this video, I will share it with my friends who are struggling with their children and I would call it pandemics , here there and everywhere, young beautiful children with mental disorders,unable to function and live the life.
What a wonderful team of truly caring, 'listening' flexiable, problem solving individuals. It is shameful this model isnt being embraced by Australia's 'comfortable psychiatrist's' whose present treatment management is life destroying from the start.
+Diana Woods 70% recovered without 'any' so called antipsychotic drugs, 85% success rate 1st psychosis presentation getting back to work or school, half of the 30% who had received ' small ' doses antipsychotics are off by the 2-5 year marker. 20 years of success! What is in the way of Australian psychiatrists humbly learning from the Finns who seem to run an egalitarian medical team for the benefit of the patient? Finns patients have the opposite stats to Aust, . I would expect from those who earn $240 to $300 a hour of tax payers money excellence in their field !!!!!
We have the same trouble in sweden too, psychiatry together with treatment-places here, do just destroy more, than they heal anyone, today, as for the last 20 yrs. Not good for people who need something else, than pills, and totally stale stiff rules. Softness, allowing and building on that which is healthy in each individual. I just Wish, this could change how our treatments look, cause we are in the middle ages still here in sweden, handicapped into rules, not for the clients who need help, but for the staff only. Its a terrible way to destroy humans everyday here, worse than before they had any contact with them.
Thank you for existing. This really does need to be in the US Prisons badly. The current system is sooooo broken and is so corrupt nobody who gets incarcerated has a chance. If your not mentally psychotic before you go in, you will be.
Time to move to Finland...
One burning question: what kind of brain disease can be cured through dialogue with the sufferer and their social network, producing the best long-term outcomes in the developed world? I would suggest, none. So what are we doing to people when we prescribe antipsychotic medication which shortens life, increases morbidity, and actually makes long term mental health outcomes worse then for psychotic people who aren't maintained on antipsychotics long term? (See Robert Whitaker's meta-analysis entitled "Anatomy of an Epidemic", which is free online, for the full research on this). This lifts the lid on the most shocking and unbelievable medical abuses in the history of the Western world that I have ever known, and one would hope it is the worst such case. I hope that this movement brings all this to light, as well as bringing hope of recovery to millions written off as chronically disabled due to mental health.
I only discovered your channel two weeks ago or so. I haven't watched very many of your videos yet. I am so thankful that I did, as well as for this film. This may yet help me save my life.
A decade later this is still groundbreaking info for anyone in the western world to hear. I went through the wringer three years ago and am finally coming to an understanding of the mistreatment that I was given, at fault of big pharma, academic psychiatry (f the DSM), and I would say, a lack of spiritual connection in the western world leading to a failure to understand the mad persons experience as a necessary departure from their status quo
we have been looking for help for my brother in law for some time. I stumbled upon this, then saw the pilot program at UMass! and he lives in Worcester! we are going to call this week and see if they are accepting clients. Thank you so much for this!
Were you able to get him into the program? If so, how did it go? I'm looking at the same program and looking for information.
This is so inspiring. Thank you for this extremely interesting type of open dialogue therapy, Finland! As well as your openness in your desire to share it with us, the rest of the world.
Great film. It was a fantastic insight into what seems like the pinnacle of medical research into the most effective treatment for those in a mental health crisis. With these success rates in Finland, I wonder, if psychiatrists in other parts of the globe who administer anti-psychotics would be fully willing to make their jobs redundant in their current form, should the medical evidence prove that the Finnish holistic, drug-free, patient choice type of approach, does indeed result in a higher rate of successful patient outcomes. Commercially, one must presume that the pharmaceutical companies seek profit for their shareholders and will hold little interest in revising or exploring criticisms into the effectiveness of their drugs, nor willing to accept another organisation or company who proposes alternative medical treatments or solutions, especially if that outcome that would negatively affect their financial forecast.
What if the "patient" is losing touch with reality because there's severe abuse happening. Most often, the abuser is a family member. How is it helpful to bring in the family, or to send the patient back to the family for "healing"? They keep talking about family as if there's 100% guarantee that family wants what's best for the patient. Abuser's goal is to not be exposed, and to not lose access to their target.
Very good points!
Thank you Daniel for all the work you have been doing in this area and for your courage bravery and hard work in challenging the psychiatric system and bringing light to other ways and understandings.
Inspiring work by modest workers which pokes the eye of tradition. I love it.
It builds on the story telling approach and keeps people at the centre.
IF ONLY South Australia was ready for it !!!!!!!!!
HONESTY spells HOPE. Hope and knowledge that intelligent, stable respectful intelligent people exist on the planet. I absolutely enjoyed this. Thank you Daniel and thank you Finland. I want to work at this place.
As a Finn I find this extremely interesting. I've recently found your channel and have enjoyed your videos a lot! Keep up the good work :)
I have never seen mental health worker with such integrity.... much respect and admiration 👏👏👏
Also meant to say Superb work Daniel it communicates the message brilliantly.
THANK YOU so much for making this film. I believe the health of a society is predicated on the way they treat the most vulnerable. Living in a country where the pharmaceutical companies dictate treatment makes it very clear to me our society is very sick. I asked my sons psychiatrist if he was aware of this model & I was disappointed, horrified but not surprised that he hadn’t. Like everyone else I’m just so disillusioned & angry with such an ineffective & uncaring mental health system. It’s not rocket science that compassion, kindness & understanding are what is required when people are suffering.. not a lifetime of drugs to line the pockets of pharmaceutical companies.
this is very unique to share the method and how to solve psychosis....friends all over the world, can share this clinical method, thank you for sharing the video here - to have a family in mental health problems
Excellent work Daniel with very important implications and findings which bode well for the future if only we are willing to apply this model to the rest of the modern world. In addition to it's effectiveness, it is practical and economical too!!
I'm so very very pleased to find your documentary - for your making this Finnish model available. The understandings that underlie the model, as best as I understand, are - to my mind - rooted in some of the same truths and insights that underlie practices such as consensus model decision making, peer facilitated conflict resolution, and healing justice circles. In all these practices - validation of individuals, within inclusive supportive community, seem key principles at work. In all these practices, there is unquestioning acceptance of complex interactivity and interdependency, married to unquestioning intention to foster thriving community. It seems there is community, and there is learning - coming and going in all directions. Thank you, and thank the many who joined you in creating this film.
I’m hearing a lot of nonviolent communication too. awesome video
excellent documentary, thanks a lot.
Thank you for making this film!!
I put my learning and reflection here due to schizophrenic, I highly appreciate deep from my heart for sharing your documentaries.
Positive controversial approach, that will, hopefully, soon become a widely spread alternative to the immediate prescribtion of the usual joy-in-life killing meds. The doc itself, however, could have easily been cut back to 1/4 without any info lost :), and, strangely enough, chemically/drug abuse induced psychosis (and the treatment approach to), as a topic, is never mentioned. Ps. A quote from the (also controversial in circles of psychiatry ;) AA appraoch to addiction just came to mind : there is no chemical solution to a spiritual (not religious !) problem. To me personally, that translates to ' don't fight symptoms of problems, try to heal by going to the root of what's actually, really going on, and try to empower people with enough tools to deal with the problem themselves..'.
great video thanks for posting Daniel ! i find this doco almost frustrating to watch seeing a place like Finland doing so well and my own home country doing so poorly. I can now see yet another problem we have here with our medical practitioners when they dont even understand what the word Psychosis means they seem to think its some sort of permanent, incurable condition that can only be treated with drugs thanks to Finland we now know this is not the case... I congratulate Finland WELL DONE!!! Your country can now look forward to many more years of healing its people!
+cameron E i hear you!! alas, what they're doing in northern finland is just in a small small part of finland. it would be a good thing if the rest of the country of finland (and world) learned from what this small section is going. greetings!
+Daniel Mackler ok perhaps i was getting a bit to excited, so lets push this as far as we can then.. I see on my internet here in Australia the New South Wales Schizophrenia Fellowship has a whole webpage about the Open Dialogue Program including your great Documentary Daniel... Today Lapland Tomorrow the rest of Finland the day after lets shoot for the stars and take on the rest of the World.. I know some militant anti-psychiatry followers out there are calling for a bloody revolution to many lives have been lost already so i favor a peaceful revolution and i don't think its impossible...Have a look at the history of humanity regarding peaceful revolutions it all starts with a small group of people who stand up for their rights and then take the rest of the people with them .... Cheers ;)
Wow. We need this in our political system in the US.
We need this in our political system in Finland too, believe me.
there's no money once somebody's been healed. Keeping us sick is the money maker.
Thank you for very interesting film which is influenced many people in Poland.
You're welcome -- and hello!
Ngl I think this is why peoples experience of schizophrenia in less industrialised places isn’t anywhere near as negative. Family bonds are very strong in such places because they’re not atomised
It’s an amazing approach, I’m glad I came across that movie. Modern western medicine dehumanizes the patient - and oftentimes the provider too.
I only wish the flow of the movie was more smooth, and interviews with different people weren’t cut into parts and mixed - not easy to follow. But overall - thank you for the effort and creating this movie❤
ILEF organizará en Abril 2018 un seminario con Jaakko Seikkula.
¡Pronto detalles completos!
#SeikkulaMx2018 #SeikkulaILEF2018 #OpenDialogue #DiálogoAbierto
i watched this movie in Zagreb , Croatia, when you came to show it, that was long time ago :) it was great ˙Daniel was nice man :)
Thanks so much for making art that's filled with truth in its essence, it found its way to my heart.
THANK YOU, is great to know that you are not alone! People there have done it so not that "crazy idea". I will persist in my daily battle!!!
Big cow, what a wonderful day we had, thank you so much, great spirit, met een glimlach.
Thank you for this amazing film. ❤️
The real star of the show was the editor. Took me back to the 90s with those transitions.
I've got the movie and I love it. But thank you for sharing so that I may share with my friends (and the rest of the world). I know one psychiatrist who is using open dialogue or a variant thereof with children and young people. Unfortunately, the method is not universally acknowledged within Danish psychiatry. We still prefer to strap people down and overmedicate.
people with psychosis have some realism when they make a point in conversation or in life matters.
If you take Schizophrenia away from being just a "mental illness" and consider it as a language, I feel that many would begin to see that it can be considered a dialect. Consider that hallucinations and delusions are like the brain hearing and seeing the language, while the feelings a person with Schizophrenia has is like the pronunciation. In this way, Schizophrenians are trying to provide the translation and the science of psychology oversees interpreting the language.
Well done, thank your for your curiosity and passion.
Wow! Astounding. Thank you so much for making this film and bringing this to us.
love this
It’s incredible, this open dialogue.
Amazing Documentary. Great work!
So honest and wonderful. Well done!
Excellent film. Thanks so much.
It's sickening how society is about mental health, I get it ,it's about fear .but unable to talk for fear being mistreated or hospitalised is a disgrace ,God place everyone that's working for change .
Lithium orotate (trace with a decent binder) stops mania and hysteria in its tracks. Medical doctors will tell you lithium is the best aid for bi polar, but what they prescribe it, its so strong it destroys the kidneys. And that is a problem here in the United States, when a medical doctor will only give people or tell people about what they can prescribe. And what they prescribe makes people more sick, not better. I have a whole list of symptoms that get drugged that the diagnosis isn't even correct for that which they are drugging. Its reality, and its horrifying. Medical doctors are drug pushers, and if we don't know how to or if they don't wish to talk, we'll get screwed over. Period. We are better off researching ourselves. I have learned the lesson the very hard way.
Amazing! Great work, Daniel!! :-)
I would like to move to Finland...There's nothing in America..Conformity and corporate misery...I'd like to try one of those work visa programs I've read about online but it could be nothing but a scam..
well done Daniel. this is important for people to see and study 👍
What a great informative film about psychosis!
"the Finns were not working in a mental health system which constantly suggested that they were breaking the standards of care and causing harm to their clients." Have you considered that perhaps their successful results are largely due to the fact that there is such a loose standard for determining "success" in Finland?
I wish I would have seen this before my psychotic friend accidentially wasted him self :( Well I still know atleast one case and this method seems pretty harmless, maybe fit for him..
I take ssri’s for my OCD and I find it really helps 🤷♂️ sometimes pharmaceuticals work, the mind is a byproduct of brain chemistry
Your work is awesome Daniel. Thank you!
Very interesting video on the Finnish mental health system/approach.
keith olszewski Hour Fourteen?? I'm not sure what you are saying?
i think psychosis is deefficient edit of living picture.
Thanks for the awesome video!
How do they approach when there is an abusive family context? Or family members ia not "Healthy"?
An excellent documentary! Well done. Make some more please :-)
Hi Daniel really great film. It has totally blown my mind. I am working as a co-production lead in MH in London and have experience of SEMH in my own family.. I have so many questions. One is about if patients/family member become violent and how they deal with this? It is certainly very inspiring and I am going to talk with my team about it.
hmm, good question. i think they do use minimal hospitalization, but do use it sometimes. also, i think it can help if they have a therapy worker live in the house with a family -- calms things down. however, i haven't been there in six years, so i don't have the best answers anymore!! also, you may know this, but open dialogue seems to be taking off in the UK, from what i hear. www.nelft.nhs.uk/aboutus-initiatives-opendialogue facebook.com/opendialogueuk best wishes from new york-----daniel
what an amazing documentary!
great documentary!
HOORAY!!!! THANK YOU!!!!
Very Encouraging & informative! I have to ask if Albequerque New Mexico has a team available as I have someone who would benefit? As I now have HOPE!
hi patsy. alas, i don't know of any teams in albuquerque. i would imagine that their mental health services are much more conventional there..... wishing you the best! daniel
As a psychoterapist, I am amazed. I'm also curious to know if this approach can be used in others conditions such as depression, borderline disorder...or only pshchotic disorders
Hello Daniel how do I take contact with Jaakko Seikkula . I live in the nothern part of Sweden very close to Torneo. My 15 year old daughter has been suffering with Psychosis for a year now.Thank you
🧚🏼♂️Brilliant 😃Beautiful 💚Refreshing ✅ Thank you 🕊
Thanks
Although I agree that Open Dialogue seems like a Great approach, it is difficult to accurately interpret what the success rate really is? They talk about Recovery, however Recovery is different than Curing the problem. Curing, Recovery, Remission, Improvement, Functioning, are all very loose subjective terms used to describe mental illness. As far as I know, there is no cure for mental illness, & it just gets worse with age. Unscientific subjectivity makes it impossible to compare apples with apples....
We are still in the dark ages when it comes to understanding the human mind
You're basing this on the assumption that there is a discrete biological entity called "mental illness" that needs to be "cured". There is no evidence of that. Contrary to propaganda, it is NOT like Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and the like.
So when you say there is "no cure" for mental illness, you're kind of right. There is nothing to "cure".
this has been very interesting to watch - thank you for uploading it. i was wondering whether, during the sessions, the psychologists/psychiatrists/nurses get into the actual content of the psychoses. there was a hint of this in the beginning, but it doesn't become clear from the documentary.
wonderful work!!
If in the United States people DON'T think they are paying for this they are kidding themselves. What recovering from psych drug malpractice has cost me, the taxpayers and my insurance (when I had it) is ridiculously gastronomical. Ordinarily I'd feel badly, except for that its cost me a lot too, and today because instead of the medical doctor helping me he and his liability insurance attorneys attacked me I live on the charity of others and in poverty. If not for others I would be like most in my situation, which means I would be rendered homeless and living on the streets at 64 years of age. Prior to the psych drug malpractice I was financially secure, married to my best friend for 28 years, and close to retirement. From this I lost my marriage, most of my friends and family, my career, my home, my retirement, and my medical doctor took ME to court to get rid of me as a patient. It boggles the mind, but that is how crony capitalism works. The judges have helped them instead of me, even with the evidence right in front of them.